Podcast Summary

Podcast: This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
Episode: Confidence Isn’t Born, It’s Built — Lessons from the Cockpit to Real Life with Michelle “MACE” Curran (#343)
Date: September 10, 2025
Host: Nicole Kalil
Guest: Michelle “MACE” Curran – Former Thunderbirds Lead Solo Pilot, Author of The Flip Side: How to Invert Your Perspective and Turn Fear Into Your Superpower

Overview

This episode centers on the real, practical process of building confidence, courage, and boldness—not as innate gifts, but as skills to be cultivated. Nicole Kalil and Michelle Curran (call sign “MACE”), a trailblazing Air Force Thunderbird pilot, explore how even the most high-stakes performers grapple with fear and self-doubt, and offer actionable insights for anyone seeking to redefine "woman's work" in their own authentic way.

The conversation ranges from fighter pilot squadrons to keynote stages, discussing visualization, failure, imposter syndrome, and the step-by-step growth of confidence—highlighted by memorable stories from MACE’s own journey.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The True Relationship Between Confidence, Courage, and Fear

[00:54] Nicole Kalil:

“None of us came out of the womb with an extra dose of confidence or courage. As today's guest says, it's not born, it's built.”

• Courage, confidence, boldness are closely linked, but not the same; they feed off confronting doubt and fear.
• Feeling fear or doubt is not a sign of weakness; it's the precondition for courage and boldness.

2. Fear on the Ground vs. Fear in the Cockpit

[03:55] MACE:

“The moments where I really felt fear and doubt... weren't in the airplane. They were actually in the squadrons, in the units... those moments where I knew I needed to speak up.”

• MACE reveals that her scariest moments weren’t flying at 500 mph, but speaking up in meetings, risking failure, or putting herself forward.
• These “ordinary” acts can be more daunting because we lack daily practice—unlike rehearsed high-risk maneuvers in the jet.

3. The Secret Sauce: Practice, Visualization & Chair Flying

[06:05] MACE:

“It is boring, unsexy. Day after day, repeating the same thing again and again until you hone those skills... The tools of visualization, imagining success, are the same whether you're a beginner or at the highest level.”

• Continuous practice and visualization are pivotal. MACE describes “chair flying,” a fighter pilot’s method of mentally rehearsing every step, now adapted for public speaking and even sales.
• Repeated exposure to fear, in progressively challenging increments, builds a skillset AND proof to oneself of resilience.
• Preparation breeds confidence: Visualize, anticipate what might go wrong, so you’re mentally ready—not just technically ready.

4. Reacting vs. Responding in High-Pressure Situations

[10:25] MACE:

“A key tool in being able to... respond instead of react is being prepared... you fall back on your training.”

• In the cockpit, the first rule in an emergency is to maintain aircraft control—don’t panic, default to practiced procedures.
• MACE draws a parallel to daily life: When confronted with setbacks (on stage, in meetings, at home), pause, maintain composure, and apply practiced responses.
• Quote:

  “Sometimes just saying the worst case out loud can take away its power. The rewards of this, the potential rewards are a lot bigger than the potential worst case scenario.”
  [14:03] MACE

5. Embracing and Learning from Failure: The Story Behind “MACE”

[16:50] MACE:

“You get your call sign based on a mistake that you made... So usually you get to your squadron, you're very new... they kick you out of the room, and they say, ‘What dumb stuff has she done?’ ... And Mob rules takes over!”

• Call signs in fighter squadrons aren’t self-chosen—they’re assigned based on a memorable mistake—normalizing failure as universal, expected, and formative.
• For MACE, her call sign arose from a (dangerous) rookie mistake: unintentionally going supersonic and nearly blacking out (pulling 9Gs).
• The debrief process after every flight—no matter one’s rank—fosters a culture of objective self-examination, accountability, and persistent improvement.

6. The Confidence Journey: From Imposter Syndrome to Bold Choices

[25:46] MACE:

“Confidence comes from having a proven track record to yourself, that either you've been successful in this thing in the past or you have the ability to figure it out.”

• Imposter syndrome is not a buzzword—it’s a lived experience, especially when you’re “the only” or “the first.”
• MACE describes her turning point upon transferring to a new squadron; she chose to start saying “yes” to small bold opportunities, like applying to teach pilots in Poland, rather than shrinking from them out of fear.
• Small, Bold Choices (SBCs): Over time, these incremental actions build the record and inner trust that fuels confidence.

7. Three Flavors of Confidence

[30:47] Nicole Kalil:

• Confidence by experience: “I know I can because I’ve done it before.”
• Confidence by capability: “I know I can because I can learn it.”
• Confidence by resilience: “I know I can recover, no matter what.”

MACE’s story about Poland exemplifies all three: nervousness, firsts, learning curve, but delivering and adding a foundational “brick” to her confidence.

8. Actionable Advice: Building Boldness Day by Day

[32:27] MACE:

“I think those, I think of those little Legos as small, bold choices. And you stack them up, and you get higher and higher, and all of a sudden you're finding the courage to go to Poland for a summer... then that's building more bricks.”

• Get intentional: Reconnect with your personal WHY or mission; let it drive your actions and small daily decisions.
• Take one small, slightly uncomfortable action TODAY—not next week.
  (Send that email, raise your hand, make that phone call.)
• Normalize self-doubt and discomfort: Seek mentorship, say worries aloud, and realize even role models feel the same.
• Courage and fear always walk hand-in-hand:

  “Courage isn’t the absence of those [doubts], it’s just taking action despite those things.”

Memorable Quotes

• “[Confidence, courage, boldness] are linked, and one often creates the other. But what we tend to forget is words that we like to avoid, like fear and doubt, are also linked with these aspirational words.”
  — Nicole Kalil [00:54]

• “If you don't first feel fear, then you don't need courage. If there’s no doubt, then there's nothing bold about whatever it is that you’re doing.”
  — Nicole Kalil [01:13]

• “Normalizing it over time takes away that negative stigma.”
  — MACE [23:49]

• “Get clear on where you want to go... what is our ultimate goal? Is it to create a certain lifestyle, build relationships, whatever it is—getting very clear on what that objective is.”
  — MACE [33:18]

• “Confidence isn’t a title you earn or a quality you inherit, it’s something you build day by day, moment by moment.”
  — Nicole Kalil [38:03]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:54 — Nicole’s introduction: The relationship between confidence, courage, boldness & fear
• 03:44 — MACE: Fear in the cockpit vs. fear in the squadron, personal vulnerability
• 06:05 — The value of practice, visualization, “chair flying” for big and small challenges
• 10:25 — Responding vs. reacting, and the methodical approach to emergencies
• 16:50 — The call sign story: How failure is embedded in culture and normalized as growth
• 25:46 — Confidence as self-trust; the role of small, bold choices in building it
• 32:27 — MACE’s actionable framework: setting goals, taking daily bold steps, normalizing self-doubt
• 38:03 — Nicole’s closing wisdom; the daily, incremental work that is truly “woman’s work”

Notable Moments

• MACE’s admission of introversion and initial shyness: “I didn’t even want to be called on in class despite being a straight A student... Two weeks ago I spoke to 4,500 people live on a keynote stage.” [32:27]
• Call sign naming ritual: A squadron ritual that both acknowledges mistakes and celebrates earned place in the team.
• Visualization as a training tool: “Chair flying” translates seamlessly from combat flights to sales calls, presentations, or any high-stakes situation.
• Nicole’s mini masterclass recap — succinctly breaking down the three ways to source confidence [30:47]
• Courage and fear as “two friends on the edge of a cliff, holding hands” — a vivid, memorable metaphor for growth [33:30]

Closing Notes

MACE and Nicole recast boldness as a muscle built in daily micro-moments, and remind listeners that even the most accomplished women are building confidence step-by-step, sometimes while their knees are shaking. Confidence is work—woman’s work, in its most universal sense: authentic, intentional, sometimes quiet, always brave.

Learn more:

• Michelle “MACE” Curran
• Order her book (The Flip Side) wherever books are sold.
• For show notes and more, visit nicolekalil.com