← This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
Corporate Reckoning: Why Companies Can’t Outrun Their Past (And Why You Should Care) with Sarah Federman | 405
00:37:24
A powerful, no-BS conversation with corporate accountability expert and author Dr. Sarah Federman, unpacking what corporate reckoning really means, why ethical leadership demands honesty about the past, and how your everyday choices as a consumer shape the future of business — whether you realize it or not.
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Reads)
I don't overthink and wait on things in my business the way that I used to.
- [00:04]
Nicole Kahlil
If something needs to get built, fixed,
- [00:06]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Reads)
designed or analyzed, I'm not adding it
- [00:09]
Nicole Kahlil
to a someday list or dragging out some hiring process.
- [00:12]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Reads)
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Nicole Kahlil
listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. And because that's our mission, most of our conversations live in the day to day. The decisions we make, the boundaries we set, the confidence we build, you know, the stuff that you can actually do something with on a Wednesday afternoon. But this episode isn't exactly that. At least I don't think it is. Today we're talking about corporations, massive institutions, global brands, the kind of entities that shape economies, influence culture, and whether we like it or not, leave a legacy. And here's where it gets uncomfortable. Some companies have cultures, histories and legacies they'd much prefer get swept under the rug. Things that don't exactly align with the values on their websites or the polished culture you'd hear about in an interview. And I know there is a very real temptation to say things like let's just leave the past in the past. But history doesn't work that way. It lingers in systems in privilege and wealth and opportunity or lack thereof. And increasingly we're seeing companies being asked or called out to answer for it. Now, I know what you might be thinking, cool, Nicole, but I don't run a multinational corporation. I'm just trying to get through my goddamn inbox. Same friend, Same. So let's be clear. This episode isn't about giving you a five step action plan to go fix corporate America before lunch. But it is about curiosity. It is about what can we do. Because even if we're not CEOs of billion dollar companies, we are participants in these systems. We work inside them, buy from them, benefit from them, and hopefully challenge them. And the question being asked at the corporate level about responsibility, accountability and what we owe for what came before us. Those questions don't just live at the top. They're everywhere. From institutions being called out for ties to slavery or genocide to more recent, still unfolding questions about power abuse and exploitation. Which brings us to today's guest. Sarah Federman is an associate professor of Conflict resolution at the University of San Diego's Kroc School of Peace Studies. She's the author of the award winning books Transformative Negotiation and Last Train to Auschwitz and her new book Corporate Reckoning, where she explores how companies can confront historical harms not just because they have to, because it might be the only way forward. She's testified before Congress on corporate accountability and brings a deeply researched and very practical perspective on what it actually looks like for institutions who to confront their past. So Sarah, welcome to the show. I'm super glad you're here and I figured it would probably make the most sense to start by asking you to explain what you mean by corporate reckoning. Can you give us an idea or some examples of what we're even talking about here?
- [05:35]
Sarah Federman
Absolutely. But I was taking notes as you were doing the intro. I'm like, oh, she said that so well. So thanks.
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Nicole Kahlil
Yay.
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Sarah Federman
Yeah, it's fun to hear people say it differently. And so I think probably the best way to explain it is to say how I got interested in it two. Two different ways. One was that I grew up in a family business that operated in South Africa during apartheid, but through the UK office, so it wasn't illegal. But as I was in school, I was a teenager learning like, hey, wait a minute, there's apartheid and why, why do we have an office there? And that office really gave us like financial security because our company, my family's business, had a monopoly there. And as I got older, I got like deeply uncomfortable about that and started to try to talk to. Once the company was sold, I tried to talk to people who were. People still won't talk about really what had happened in that time and tried to talk to my family about that. So that sort of like uncomfortable feeling I've always sort of had about, you know, what do I sort of owe to South Africa and South Africans by contributing. And then. And the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission did name another. A number of industries that really upheld apartheid, that apartheid could not have been sustained in South Africa without the extraction industry, the media industry, and other industries that actually, as you said so well, like, actually uphold the structures in the past. So that's one. And then I was living in France for work and I got really interested in the role of the railways, the French railways in the Holocaust. And they were in the middle of a process to make amends for that role. And that's where that first book came from. And then it started to branch out because people had other examples and I got interested in those.
- [07:18]
Nicole Kahlil
Okay, so fascinating and wildly important. I call myself a World War II history buff. I swear, like any book I grab off the shelf, it somehow has a World War II tie in. And I like, not on purpose. And I have never once thought about the railroads specifically and the role that they played and the contribution they made to the concentration camp. So that is a really good example where I think us in our day to day lives as a consumer, we often don't make connections or think about how larger corporations are contributing to bigger global issues. It's a little scary.
- [08:05]
Sarah Federman
It is, actually. I didn't realize until I did the research that the Holocaust could not have happened without the participation of the railways. Most people arrived by train. And then as I started to look at all of our human inflicted Mass atrocities. None of them happen without corporate participation. So when companies say, no, we don't want to participate. And a lot of people who are history buffs and look back at those companies, why did they participate? But then you look around us today and you're like, well, those people are afraid of getting shot. Like, these people aren't even afraid of getting shot. You know, and we participate all in various ways to different things that we know are going on.
- [08:44]
Nicole Kahlil
Okay. So I said this in my introduction. I have a feeling there is a lean towards, okay, but let's use the railroads as an example. Whoever is running those companies today had nothing to do with that. Why don't we just leave the past in the past? What's the value or the use in bringing it up today or trying to hold people accountable in some way for something that they specifically, individually had nothing to do with.
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Sarah Federman
Yeah.
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Nicole Kahlil
In history.
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Sarah Federman
Yeah. Not only. It's so true, and it's such a good question. The executives I was talking to at the French Railways actually were both Holocaust impacted. They were Jewish. So not only did they not do it, they were impacted. In their case, they couldn't ignore it because Holocaust survivors confronted them and said, hey, by the way, I know you keep bragging about your role in the Resistance, but I was forced on your train, or my family was forced crammed into a cattle car and never came home. They were not willing passengers. So sometimes institutions don't have a choice because people dig up the history and confront them with it. Part of it is like the French Railways wants. It's like the veins of France. It has like such an important role in the country and that to be sort of a full member of the country, it has to do its reckoning work like the French government did, and say, okay, this is not us. This is who we want to be today. It's very difficult for an organization to have a value statements or an ethics statement without acknowledging the past and saying, we didn't do this before, but this is who we are today. Right. And so it becomes very inauthentic to have any kind of statement without acknowledging something as big as that.
- [10:27]
Nicole Kahlil
Couldn't agree more. And I feel like we see more instances of people doing this badly in today's day and age than effectively. So. Based on your research, what does effective reckoning work look like? What needs to happen or exist in order for it to move people and the corporation forward versus having them stay stuck? I don't know if I'm asking that
- [10:55]
Sarah Federman
very well, but yeah, no, it's A great question. And we're all connected to these brands, by the way, in one way or another, whether it's our bank, our employer, like, the museums we go to, the universities we attended. Like, they're all. They're all in on it. You know, if they're older than 100 or 50 years, even. So the first is, and I love this because I love history, and it sounds like you do too, is to really study the histories of these places. Like, not the ones that the great, great grandson wrote. Those are like hero tales, and they don't help us understand the compromises and choices that were made. Most company timelines are very thin. But I just worked with a bourbon company that really wanted to better understand their history. And a grad student and I had so much fun just like, what the heck was going on? Then you take that history and you say, okay, based on part. You know, parts of it weren't terrible, but parts of it weren't as great, you know, and so then how do we respond to that in the present? But I think the first is actually a really open, energizing conversation where you let historians in there, you dig around, you find out what happened without taking it personally. You didn't do it. You know, it's like we study our nation's history. Like, okay, we had Japanese internment camps. You know, there was slavery here. Like, it's just what's so. And then figure out. Yeah, so I think people get quickly worried about how much they're gonna have to spend or the shame or taking it personally rather than having that discovery first. And I think that's just what I really encourage. And in the book, I just talk about, like, the different kinds of history and a little bit how to do that. But, yeah, as a history person, I think that part's super fun.
- [12:32]
Nicole Kahlil
Yeah, agreed. And you mentioned national history briefly there. I think that is a good example of where I. I think most people's inclination or perceived response is more to try to ignore and deny. I personally don't appreciate that. As a history person, I think it is so important that we understand the good and the bad of everything. But what do we lose? What are the consequences? What are the problems for us and for corporations when they go the ignore and deny route?
- [13:08]
Sarah Federman
Yeah, it's really tempting to tell just the glory story because it makes us feel good and we feel proud about where we work. The thing. The risk of it. The risk of it is more about. And I'm sure you talk about this on your show is like, resilience. How can you be adaptable if you think the people before you just went from one great innovation to the next and then suffered a few economic disruptions, but made it anyway? It doesn't help you understand the kinds of ethical decisions and even strategic decisions they were making at the time. You know, most business schools use case studies to teach business because you want to learn from the failures of others to make better decisions today. But if in your company you're not doing that, then how are you going to learn? So it doesn't help with learning. People feel the inauthenticity, because I think every. I think we know that if anything's too perfect, it probably isn't true. So there's more authenticity, but really resilience. Yeah. It doesn't prepare people, prepare any of us, for our times if we pretend the past was sort of all glorious or sanitized.
- [14:14]
Nicole Kahlil
Yeah. I have to imagine, too, most consumers would prefer things be acknowledged than pretending. Like, I always think with certain things, like, we know, right? We know what you're doing. We know what happened, or we're hearing about it. And to pretend, ignore, deny, actually makes me, as a consumer, not want to work with your corporation.
- [14:37]
Sarah Federman
Yeah.
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Nicole Kahlil
And maybe I'm just more wired that way. I don't know.
- [14:40]
Sarah Federman
But I. I empathize, too. When I found out that Hugo Boss made all the Nazi uniforms, I had this amazing Hugo Boss shirt that I had bought in Warsaw, of all places. You know, I bought it in Poland, where, you know, where Auschwitz is. And I'm like, but I love the shirt, but it just feels so creepy, like, I wish I didn't know. Yeah. So there is an element of, like, I go through the grocery store. I'm like, I wish I didn't know about you. I wish I didn't know about you. But then I do feel more power in making my own choices, I think. Cynthia Enlow is a woman who wrote about how women actually have far more power in foreign policy and these kinds of things than they realize because their purchasing decisions, where the families go on vacation, you know, all of that is actually what moves markets in a. In a tremendous way. So women are often overlooked because they're less invited to the table where the big decisions are made, but they're driving things, too. So I think it really matters what. What women know, even in the household, about what they're bringing in. And increasingly so if what's being monitored by the government in terms of chemicals and things, you know, isn't so guaranteed, we're going to have to be More vigilant.
- [15:49]
Nicole Kahlil
Excellent point. I read somewhere that women are responsible for something like 85% of all consumer spending or something like that. So the idea that we don't have power is really quite ridiculous. And that is one great way that we have power. But you mentioned something before we hit record that I wanted to dive in on. And I'm just going to put it under the. Where corporate reckoning is sort of coinciding with women's work. Right. So where are women playing a role or not playing a role in all of this corporate reckoning that needs to happen and is happening?
- [16:24]
Sarah Federman
Yeah. It's so interesting because there is this. We were talking about how there's this expectation that women clean up, women do the caring in society, women and cleaning up can be dirty histories. Or we're talking about like the helping, the piecework, you know, the caring professions. I'm sure you talk about how the caring professions are undervalued monetarily. So there's this expectation. We had a. I listened to a colleague the other day and she said it so well. She goes, she goes, men start the wars, but women are supposed to end them. But we're never allowed to the meetings where they end them. And then we have to clean it up for free. And I was like, that was it, that was it. And women have done that forever. Right? Women have done. Have played that role in many ways. So that's where I think women do have a voice in asking for these issues to come up if they care about the supply chain, like what's happening. Like when I pick up an object, I kind of think about who are all the people that contributed to this, you know, and that they matter. And I know the present seems more important than the past, but the past lingers in the present. And I think you said that very well in the. In the opening that history lingers. If you're. The affected communities can tell you about it much more easily.
- [17:40]
Nicole Kahlil
A thousand percent. Yeah. And I think the affected communities are the ones who both deserve and are demanding this reckoning so that people can move forward. I think there is this belief sometimes that people are bringing things up because they want to stay stuck in the past. And my interpretation in a lot of situations is no, it's. We want to be able to move forward, but we can't step over this very big thing that we know and we can't unknow.
- [18:10]
Sarah Federman
Yeah. And I think one way to think about it is it feels like either or past or present and more the visual is like thinking of a big family table. Or maybe it could be a corporate boardroom and just one seat for the past. I'm just saying one. You know, one seat. So you have a big corporation you've been around a while or a big institution. You need to have a group or 2% of your time. Just focus on the things that are lingering from the past.
- [18:36]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Reads)
Sorry to break in, but this part matters. Rate the show, share it, and support the sponsor so I can keep making
- [18:42]
Nicole Kahlil
episodes worth interrupting you for.
- [18:46]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Reads)
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- [19:59]
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- [20:12]
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- [20:21]
Sarah Federman
So what's next?
- [20:21]
Nicole Kahlil
I feel liberated.
- [20:23]
Sarah Federman
We're gonna take this city back over
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- [20:30]
Nicole Kahlil
They're hunting us.
- [20:31]
Sarah Federman
It's time we started hunting them. I could can work with that.
- [20:36]
Nicole Kahlil
This should be tons of fun.
- [20:38]
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- [20:43]
Nicole Kahlil
I know in your book you talk about a five step reckoning model that is meant to serve both the long term interests of a company and those that have been basically impacted from any misdeeds. Can you talk us through that in a high level?
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Sarah Federman
Yeah, it's, it's actually simple, like maybe like embarrassingly simple. But first you gotta know your history. So do the history. Then revise any materials you have, right. Based on what you found. So if you're telling sort of a half story, tell a better story. You want to make a statement, but first in house, you want to tell your own people what you're doing so that you're, you don't like, make a public statement. And then like some employee gets a text message from their mom who's like, I read this article about your slavery history of your employer and you're like, ah, gotta tell your own people first. And then you might want to make a public statement or an apology, just depending on what it is. And I talk about in the different examples of good statements, ones that landed well, ones that didn't land well and why. And throughout you want to work with impacted communities to get ideas about how best to contribute. I'll tell you, it's a lot easier to do this before being sued, because once you're sued, anything you do is seen as just trying to dig your way out. So there will be resentment in the, some people in the affected communities just because the harm usually was so great. But you'll find people who want to partner and then together you can create meaningful programs going forward.
- [22:09]
Nicole Kahlil
Okay, you said that you know, some companies where it landed well or didn't land well. Can you give us some of those examples?
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Sarah Federman
Yeah. So there's a really great statement that Lloyds of London made. If people go to the website and see how they treated their slavery history, they say, you know, we're old. We had this chapter, we were part of this transatlantic slave trade. We're really ashamed about that. And this is what we're doing. The ones that go well follow this format of apology. And by the way, this works really well in your personal life too. The parallels are sometimes eerie, like why what works in your personal life? But when you're first you say what you did, right? We did this clearly, simply. Then the impact that it had on others, you know, we participated and that created this impact. As a result, this is what we're going to do to make sure it never happens again. And this is how we're going to address that harm. You know, so it's, you know, what you, what you did, the impact, it was how you're going to fix it and how you're going to prevent it going forward. And that works with an apology. Because I'm sure you, you know, you can think of examples where someone's like, oh, I'm sorry, and they're late again. You're like, so tell me how you're going to prevent being late next time. Yeah, and drinks are on you because I had to sit here. Right. So, yeah, and it makes it sort of a complete statement. The French railways, they try to get away from saying, I'm sorry because I'm sorry sounds like guilt. And they're afraid of liability. So there's a lot of, like, hedging around it. But studies have shown actually that if doctors apologize, they're sued a lot less than if they don't.
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Nicole Kahlil
Interesting.
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Sarah Federman
People want it to be acknowledged. Like, just say that you did it. And I had Holocaust survivors tell me, like, I just want to hear it. I've lived 70 years with you denying this and riding this train. Just say that you did it. And it like, it legitimizes their experience.
- [24:09]
Nicole Kahlil
Great formula. Great across the board, like you said, Whether it's a large corporation or a personal apology or reckoning that needs to be had. I couldn't agree more. I'm going to hone in on the word acknowledge. I think I'll speak for myself more often than not. That's what I'm looking for. I want to be acknowledged. Yes, the apology is important, but when you dance around something or, you know, sort of water it down, or when I perceive that you're trying to avoid liability and that could be litigious or just like being held accountable, I don't feel like me or my experience is being acknowledged. And it's a sticking point. I almost can't move on from it. And I'm a little bit more rage oriented than other people, but that's always the part that feels missing. It's like you didn't acknowledge what happened and how it impacted people. As you said, this is the first two steps.
- [25:06]
Sarah Federman
It's amazing what it means to people. And that all you have to do, that you have that power, is also amazing. Like, that you could be in a company today and you could say something that can help people who've been living with pain for so long. That's an extraordinary, extraordinary power that actually doesn't cost everything. And you can acknowledge it well, without having, like, huge liability.
- [25:30]
Nicole Kahlil
I feel like this would be easier to do if it is something historical, like if my predecessor or in our history to be able to say, this is what our company did 50 years ago. I don't understand what's so hard about that.
- [25:44]
Sarah Federman
Yeah, there's a way in which when we work at a company, we take on that identity sometimes and it feels like we did it. And it is true that once you start engaging with some of the impacted communities, they might forget that you didn't do it too. Some of the trained executives were like, wait, like, we weren't the Nazis. Like, we're Jews. Like, how are we? You know, so some of that is just because the pain is irreparable. It's really hard to imagine what it's like to like, yeah, Daniel, who I. Who I met, who survived. One of the youngest people to survive Auschwitz, towards the end of his life, he was telling me, like, I can't remember anything before I was taken. Like, that whole life. Excuse me, chills. Like the whole person he was going to be is gone. And he had this picture of his parents up by his bed. And now they died at 30. So they're like 30, and he's 89. Looking at this picture like, it's hard to get your head around that. That loss. He didn't live with a lot of anger, but it will be meaningful to a lot of people.
- [26:44]
Nicole Kahlil
You know, I'm so glad that you said that, because that's exactly the point. For the people who were harmed, it's current. It still probably lives and it's in them. Excellent point. So current situation, like, I think of the Epstein files as an example. I feel like there is gonna need to be. There should be a lot of corporate reckoning with something very current. Now. This isn't past as in 50 or 100 years ago. This is like, today. Shit. Any thoughts, advice?
- [27:23]
Sarah Federman
You know, we were just debating at our school whether JP Morgan should be allowed to recruit our peace and justice students when they were part of the Epstein thing. And they've got a number of things in their history that they haven't addressed. And it's like, is this the kind of employer we want to invite? So actually, if they said, like, this is horrible, this is what we're doing, we're owning it, then I feel differently. Like, okay, like, I know where you morally stand today, but if you don't condemn something or. And make a new commitment, I don't know what the commitments are. And a lot of young people are telling us, like, they. They will take a lesser title and lesser amount of money to be with someone that they feel more aligned with. So, yeah, it. I think where we work makes a difference. I think companies that they're big.
- [28:13]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Reads)
Right.
- [28:14]
Sarah Federman
So these companies are enormous and they're not doing all one thing. So a wing of McKinsey that does something, I know with the opioids and helps Purdue Pharma is not the whole McKinsey, but yet, like they have that umbrella. So I think that when we talk about the past, we start to see more what's happening in the present. It gives us a way to talk about it. Hey, how are we going to be remembered? What are we doing right now, you know, that's going to be judged this way that we could do something about. What was so painful for a lot of the survivors in France around the French railway is they had some. Some margin of maneuver where they could have helped but didn't. And they're still haunted by that now in 2026 for what happened in the 1940s. Like these companies are going to be haunted, especially by this moment, because there's a lot of corporate impunity right now, at least legally, but morally, that impunity doesn't last. And there is no what we call statute of limitations on crimes against humanity. So actually, companies are held, were held accountable for what they did during World War II, even though there weren't even laws about it. So I'd say, like, I would think very carefully about moral courage right now within an organization.
- [29:29]
Nicole Kahlil
Yeah, I mean, I think we're craving it. In my introduction, I sort of said or alluded to the idea that a lot of our topics impact our day to day. And they're designed, you know, for our listener to be able to do something with them right away. And a topic like this, you know, can feel big and daunting and like we don't have a lot of impact. But you said this before we hit record. I couldn't agree more. We do have impact. We have choice in many ways in where we work, in where we spend our dollars, in who we choose to support and who we vote for. There are lots of ways that we can impact this. So curious your thoughts on that.
- [30:11]
Sarah Federman
Yeah, there's lots of ways and I find them sort of energizing. It's a moment where people can really feel that they can't control where things are going. Maybe we've always felt that in some degree, but I think now it's sort of heightened for a lot of people. But if you choose to, a brand does try to own a mistake. If you just write them and say thank you for acknowledging that, you know, thank you for trying, they're going to not do it perfectly. Right. But One is like calling out a good behavior. Like, you know, I see that that happened. I was so disappointed. A lot of people at my school are all grieving over Cesar Chavez and the article that just came out about his sexual exploitation of young women. Like, there's a lot of grief around that. You know, he can't make up for it because he's dead. But companies can actually speak out. And I, I think that's important. If you choose to not use a particular brand because of their decisions, tell them because, you know, like, if you buy bananas once a month and then you just stop buying them to stick it to them, you know, they're not going to know, like, you're a $40 isn't like making it. But if you write them and let them know, I, I write companies who are trying and I say, hey, I just want you to know how much this means to me. Like, where are you in the process of changing your supply chain? You don't even need to be that detailed. You can just say, I saw this article and what do you think? And, oh my gosh, you would not believe. You would not believe they'll care if the people care. And we're seeing that because we're seeing companies change decisions right now based on how people are canceling or not.
- [31:48]
Nicole Kahlil
I don't even know if this is an appropriate question to ask, so if it's not, we can edit it out. But, you know, there is a lot of noise out there, and I try to limit the amount of social media and news and article intake in any given day or week, only if for no other reason, to protect my sanity at this point. And so sometimes we just don't know or, you know, it's hard to differentiate between the people who are doing the reckoning, the acknowledging, the owning, and the people who aren't. So my question is, do you have a. I don't know if list is the right word, but are there any companies, especially as women, that we should be really mindful of or be paying attention to where we're spending our dollars, either because they're actively participating or refusing to reckon?
- [32:44]
Sarah Federman
One it's been so painful to lose has been Meta and Facebook. Like, there's a book called Careless People which takes you that just came out by Sarah Wynn Williams. She was very high up in Facebook and she gives you sort of some sense, but it talks about how, like, if a girl, like a young girl removes a photograph of herself, they immediately start serving her weight loss and makeup ads because they sense that she's Vulnerable and insecure and like the predatory nature of that. Like, the company used to be much more about connecting people. Like, it was so exciting when Facebook started and the people who worked there were excited, but their commitments, they've made them pretty clear that they aren't there right now morally. And these algorithms are very powerful over us. So they have a lot of power. They're very addictive. So I think being very mindful for ourselves and what our kids are consuming. You know, in Silicon Valley, they don't give their kids smartphones. Like, they know the impact. So I think that's the one we all have to protect our brains around. I know there aren't tons of other choices, so I just sort of, you know, limit myself. That makes a big. That, that's a big one. I think that's public facing.
- [34:02]
Nicole Kahlil
I'll do a quick plug for Substack. I don't think it has anything to do with meta. And you just get smart. Like, I think social media is a fucking cesspool. Like the algorithms, the play on vulnerabilities, the constant messaging, especially we as women get the targeting of young men. I mean, there's just so many things. But even beyond that, I say this with love, but it's just gotten stupid. Like, yeah, it's true. I just feel dumber. Not only do I feel more uncomfortable and I'm wrestling with my confidence, but I feel dumber when I get off because everything's like condensed into these little snippets and it's just. And so substack has become a good place for me to spend time because you can again, pick the content you want. And it just feels like people are playing a much smarter game there. I don't know. Anyway, keep going.
- [34:57]
Sarah Federman
I'm with you on Substack. It's great. I give myself five minutes on Instagram because I just love like the cartoons and the animals and then yes, I can find out.
- [35:06]
Nicole Kahlil
I have a curated feed of bugs and like sarcastic humor and, you know, just. And I'm the same. Like, it's minimal time and the minute it stops being pugs and funny sarcastic stuff, then I'm out.
- [35:22]
Sarah Federman
The other one, I just. So I just was visiting a friends in tech there in Colorado and one of them actually helped create Alexa and they have canceled Amazon Prime. And I then got home and I was like, you can do it. You can do it. Because the more you learn about Bezos and what he's doing and what he did to the Washington Post and anyway, and what Amazon has done, it's like you feel like you can't let it go. And then I let it go. It's like I feel liberated. But then focus on buying in like bookstore.org like gives money to local bookstores. There's thrift books, there's buying directly. And once in a while I'm sure I'll still get things on Amazon, but it's the big ones. And then I think about the supply chain of my clothes. I'm working on getting companies who have a commitment in their supply chain. But I know people are making a lot of decisions and a lot more around food and health and that's going to be a really important area for people to focus too.
- [36:16]
Nicole Kahlil
Clean food oh my gosh, this is such an important topic and I'm sure we could talk for hours, but I want to give people, our listeners, a way to learn more and find and follow you. So friend, if you're looking for more information, Sarah's book is called Corporate Reckoning. Go to your local bookstore, let's keep them in business. Or bookshop.org you can also find out more about Sarah and her work on her website, sarah fetterman.com Sarah, thank you for doing this work, for being here today, and for challenging us to put a little bit more thought and expectation into the organizations we support and consume. And thank you for reminding us that reckoning and accountability and atonement are incredibly important pieces of the work that we all do. So thank you.
- [37:08]
Sarah Federman
Thank you. And I just think people don't realize how powerful they are in their purchasing choices.
- [37:13]
Nicole Kahlil
Couldn't agree more. All right, friend, here is an important shift that I am walking away with. Accountability isn't about punishment. It's about responsibility. It's about the willingness to look at what came before you. And not to carry the guilt that isn't yours, but to carry awareness. That is to ask better questions, to make more intentional choices, to leave things better than you found them. You even when it's uncomfortable, inconvenient, or imperfect. Because whether we're talking about corporations or individuals, the instinct to avoid, deny, or minimize, well, that's easy. It's also human. But so is the capacity to face things, to learn from them, to do something different because of it. And maybe that's the real reframe here. Reckoning isn't the end of the story. It's the beginning of another one where you do better. So whether you're leading a company, a
- [38:06]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Reads)
team, a family, or just yourself, the
- [38:08]
Nicole Kahlil
question isn't was this my fault? It's now that I know what am I going to do with it? And asking questions like that. Well friend, that is woman's work.
- [38:26]
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- [38:59]
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