← This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
High-Functioning Codependency: When Being “The Strong One” Is Slowly Killing You with Terri Cole | 341
00:43:01
Terri Cole joins Nicole to expose the hidden ways high-functioning codependency masquerades as success, while secretly draining your peace, energy, and joy. Learn how to spot it, stop it, and start living with boundaries and self-consideration.
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Fast Free delivery. It's on Prime. I am Nicole Kahlil and you're tuning in to the this Is Woman's Work podcast and friend in full trans When I started preparing for this episode, I thought this topic would be great for other women. Not me. I was thinking about the over givers, the people pleasers. The ones who can't seem to say no when it comes to saving someone else. Oh those poor souls, right? But the more I read and prepared, the more I thought, well shit, this topic might be for me. And for you. Because I'm guessing, like me, when you hear the word codependent, you picture someone clinging to their toxic partner, enabling their vices, or quietly disappearing, surrendering and losing themselves to their one sided relationship. A doormat if you will. Someone who can't make a decision for themselves. At least not without checking with the stars, their spouse, mother, boss, extended family, the group chat and the social media comment section. And that's exactly the problem. Most of us have a narrow and possibly outdated understanding of what codependency actually looks like. Because for a lot of us, especially the high achieving, hyper capable get shit done, no one does it better, so I'll just do it myself. Types Codependency doesn't look like codependency. It looks like competence. Like strength. Like being the person who fixes everything, holds it all together and runs the damn show. On the outside it looks like we're leading. On the inside, we're over functioning, over accommodating, overthinking and overperforming. It may look good, but it feels like shit. And I for one am over it. So that's what today's episode is all about. We're gonna unpack the kind of codependency that earns promotions, praise and a reputation for being someone who can handle anything. The kind that looks like success but feels like self abandonment in the name of Being useful, likable and needed. We're pulling back the curtain on what licensed psychotherapist Terri Cole calls high functioning codependency. Terry has worked with everyone from stay at home moms to Fortune 500 CEOs and has seen this pattern show up in even the most successful of people, the ones who are praised for their selflessness, their capacity, and their ability to get it all done. Terri is a global relationship and empowerment expert, the author of Boundary Boss and her newest book, Too Much A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High Functioning Codependency. You probably already know her as she inspires over a million people weekly through through her blog, social media, signature courses, and her very popular podcast, the Terri Cole Show. So, Terri, I'm thrilled to have you on the show and would love to kick off the conversation by asking you to explain codependency and what led you to coin this phrase high functioning codependency.
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C
Well, thank you for having me, Nicole. I'm super psyched to be here at being a psychotherapist for the past 27 years. I actually coined this phrase because there was a need. What was happening is that my, as you described so eloquently at the top, my demographic, my people who were in my therapy practice were super high functioning women, you know, masters of the universe, getting it all done. And so when I would come to them and say, hey, what you're describing in that relationship is a codependent pattern, they would immediately reject the notion because they did not see themselves as codependent. They were like, what? Me, Sarah, you know me. Everyone's dependent on me. I'm making all the money, I'm making all the moves, I'm doing all the emotional labor. What are you talking about? Which made me realize that my clients didn't really know what codependency was. They were being unduly influenced by the Melody Beatty, Codependent no more. I have to be enabling an alcoholic to be a codependent. Or as you described, right? I'm like the waiting at home pathetic crying as your partner spent all the rent money gambling. Like they didn't see themselves in any of those damsels in distress type things, or weak or quote unquote pathetic. Like this is all language that was coming from them, like what? That isn't me. And so then I started doing a deep dive. And part of why listen, what do they say, Nicole? You teach what you most need to learn. So why is this flavor of codependency one that I needed to create? Because it was My own flavor of codependency. Because as you said, the irony is the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency, but it is still codependency. So we're still burnt out, we're still exhausted, we're still resentful, we still feel underappreciated in our lives, we're still controlling, we're still, you know, all of those things. So I also realized that there's more to it than, than just the way that you relate to your partner. With high functioning codependence. We also can have a tendency to be slightly codependent with the world. Meaning when we're out in the wild and someone needs something, we're the first one to step in, like this auto accommodating. So we'll get to what all the traits are. But there was a need. And so as soon as I renamed or just came up with, it's like, it's just a different flavor of codependency, really. And I was able to talk to my clients about it instead of them rejecting the notion, they all were able, able to raise their hand, as Taylor Swift would say, saying, me, I'm the problem. It's me without shame, right? Without feeling bad. They were like, you're right, I am exhausted and I am incredibly high functioning. And now I see myself in this definition. So obviously then we could get to work, because you can see the problem. As a psychotherapist, if you have a client who does not see themselves in the problem, how are you helping them get to a solution?
- [06:49]
A
Okay, so I guess that leads to the next question for me, which is knowing when you've crossed over into codependency. Because I would imagine for most of us, those listening in, being ambitious, being capable, being high capacity, giving, caring, these things are good things. But what it sounds like is we're taking them too far and it becomes unhealthy. So I guess my question is how do we know when we've gone too far? How do we know when we're exhibiting high functioning codependency type behaviors?
- [07:26]
C
All right, so can we start with, let me give you my definition of high functioning codependency, because then we'll all be on the same page. It means you are overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, situations, circumstances, relationships, careers, finances of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace, to the detriment of your emotional well being. Could be your financial well being, right? You could be supporting someone who you really can't afford, or you're giving money or lending or whatever it is. I make the distinction about it being to the detriment of your peace. Because here's the thing. We're all mothers, sisters, daughters, lovers, partners, decent citizens. Of course, we're invested in the people that we love being happy and getting what they want. We're not talking about that. The over investment of an HFC, as we call it, is that we go from, I really want you, Nicole, to get what you want and feel the way you want to feel and have what you want in life too. When you're an hfc, I feel responsible, Nicole, for you getting what you want or how you feel, which is different. So one of the easiest ways to answer the original question here, which is how do we know, right? Caring or codependent? And the question comes to me all the time from people. Well, we can say caring, codependent or controlling because at its base, any kind of codependency, whether it's the garden variety or whether it's high functioning, is the foundation of that behavior is an overt or covert bid desire, attempt to control other people's outcomes.
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A
And where does that need for control come from? Is it to be heroic? Is it to look good? Is it to be needed? I mean, I'm sure there's a lot.
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C
Of reasons, but there's a plethora. There's so many. But part of it is we don't want there to be any problems. I don't want you to be in pain because your pain is incredibly distressing to me. So I'm going to fix your pain so that my pain can end. You know, in the book I tell this story, which I'll tell quickly, but it actually was a pivotal story and really was the beginning of me even understanding what high functioning codependency was. Is that one of my three older sisters, one of them had this history of bad relationships. So she was living in the woods in upstate New York with a guy who was like emotionally verbally abusive. He was doing drugs. She was actively alcoholic. There was no running water and no electricity and it was winter. So that's like an HFC's nightmare where you're like, oh my God, how can I do anything else in my life until I get her out of there? So I was talking to my therapist and I was bawling my eyes out. And I don't know, week seven of, you know, the only thing I talked about in therapy was my sister, basically. And finally my therapist. Cause I was like, bev, I've done everything. I've done everything. Like, what? What. What. What am I gonna do? And she said, let me ask you something. What makes you think, you know, what Jenna needs to learn in this lifetime and how she needs to learn it? And I immediately rejected that notion and said, well, I think we can both agree she doesn't need to do it with this effing a hole in the woods, you know, with no running water. Like, I. I feel like we can agree on that. And she said, no, I can't agree, because I don't know what your sister needs to learn and how she needs to learn it, because I'm not God, and neither are you. But do you know what's happening for you in all of your panic about this? And I was like, obviously not, so help. And she said, you know, Tara, you worked really hard to create a harmonious life. Your sister's dumpster fire is really messing with your peace. You really want to tie that up in a neat bow so that you can. Because I had just met my husband. You know, I had just become a bonus mom to three teenage boys. My husband was widowed. I just went from being a talent agent to becoming a psychotherapist. Like, my whole life was flourishing in a way, and yet the only thing I could focus on was getting my sister out of this abusive relationship. And so I didn't under. I didn't even think I had a choice. I was like, well, what are my options, buddy? Like, what, I'm just gonna leave her there? And she was like, yeah. She's like, tara, you need boundaries. And this was the beginning of having any understanding. And I was in my late, you know, late 20s, early 30s at this point of really grasping at what an emotional boundary was. And I was able to tell my sister, hey, I love you, and I cannot talk to you about this guy. And when and if you ever want to get the hell out of there, I'll always be your person, no matter what. And within nine months. We only spoke a few times during that time because, you know, she would call me and tell me the horrendous stuff this guy was doing. And then she'd be like, I always feel so much better after talking to you. I'm like, why do I feel like Chernobyl after talking to you? Like, I just feel like a toxic waste site. Like, you're like, I feel like someone barfed toxicity over me. Anyway, she called about maybe eight and a half months later and said, you know, are you still my person? I'M ready to get out of here. And I was like, yeah. And then went and picked her up. And here's why any of this matters is that in allowing my sister to be the hero of her own story, instead of her baby sister being the hero, she got everything that comes with that, the self esteem. She got into treatment, so she got into recovery, she went back to school. She has never been in another abusive relationship. But this was decades ago. So it really made me see how by inserting myself, as HFCs do, in the center of someone else's problem as the solution. What we're really doing is centering ourselves rather than tolerating the way someone that we love in pain is making us feel. You know, I promise you that the real flex when it comes to love is not auto advice. Giving is not fixing people, people as projects. It's not. It's being able to be in the foxhole during the dark night of the soul. And instead of fixing, witnessing compassionately, I'm here. I don't have the answer, but I love you and I'm not going anywhere. How can I best support you? It's asking them, you know, so that was a huge pivotal moment in my life where I realized I even had a choice because up till that point, the way that I was raised, it's like your family, anything you do, you just keep going until you get that person out of there. But there's a cost and it's negative to do that. There's a cost to the relationship, but there's a cost to that other person's self esteem as well.
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A
Yeah. Can we talk for a second about how hard that feels? I mean, you know when you love someone and you want the best for them and then you said earlier investing in the people that we care about to the detriment of our own peace and well being. And yet I think so many of us have been socialized and taught to be self sacrificing and to be giving and to there needed to be sacrifices in relationships. This feels really important, but also really hard. Maybe because I'm a high functioning codependent. But is that a normal feeling?
- [14:50]
C
Yes, which is why we keep doing what we're doing. But part of what I invite you to do and I walk you through in the book is really seeing the cost. Because here's the thing, it's almost like you feel like setting limits or having healthy boundaries with people or allowing people to have their own experiences is not loving. And the reality is co opting their experience and making it be what you think it should be and judging them because as HFCs, trust me, we are such know it alls, it's ridiculous. And like I include myself and trust me, no judgment. But you know, we always have ideas. We are the auto advice givers. We are the anticipatory planners. We are the auto accommodators. We are hyper independent. Right? If we look at the traits of being a high functioning codependent hyper independence, this means we're not great at asking other people for help. We're not great at letting other people help us. So we end up in this over functioning and under functioning dynamic in a lot of relationships. I mean I say this kidding but you know, in my 20s, like I could take a perfectly capable boyfriend and turn him into an under functioner in two weeks or less. Because I was like I got it, I got it, I got it right? This is one of the mantras of an hfc or it has to be me. Because we don't think other people will either do it the way we want it done, they won't do it right. They won't do it in the timeframe we want it. But as Jani Cole my mother would tell you, hey Nicole, if you need it all done your way, you'll end up like her, doing it all and doing it all yourself. Yeah. And it's like that also creates resentment because there's so much. You know what is the fallout for living in this over functioning way for decades is a nobody knows you because a lot of times you're saying yes when you wanna say no. You're always willing to take one for the team, right? So it's less about you. Even though it is. It's about you controlling, but it's more about you just wanna make sure everyone else is okay. We just don't want any problems. We just want there to be peace. We want harmony. We to be happy and well, that's really what we want. And yet going about it this way blocks deeper intimacy in our relationships.
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Of $45 for a 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first 3 months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com Is it fair to say there is an element of arrogance in this too? This idea that we know better or that.
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C
Yeah, okay, a resounding yes. But again, what's interesting is that this is inadvertent, right? Part of it is we're so reactionary when we're actively HFC that we are, there's a hypervigilance that goes along with these behaviors where we're always scanning for problems that we can, you know, head off at the pass, basically, whether it's between other people, like we always are, taking the temperature of every room that we're in and making sure that everything is okay. But you can't do that and have like real relationships too. So probably one of the most important things, if we're looking at the traits, let's say, of high functioning codependency, the auto advice giving one is probably the top one. Feeling responsible to fix other people's problems over giving, right. Giving till it hurts. And a lot of times we're doing things no one has even asked us to do. We just feel like it should be done, that needs to happen. So we just do it. Feeling exhausted, resentful, kind of bitter. Trampling on other people's boundaries, again, inadvertently. But when we are auto advice giving, that is trampling on someone's boundary if they haven't asked you for your opinion, even if they have my thoughts, if people were like, hmm, I wonder what is the most important thing I could take away from this interview? Well, I'm gonna give it to you right now. One of the most important things is if you are an auto advice giver and if you identify as an hfc, you are, instead of offering advice, no matter who comes to you, even if they're asking you, it could be a 6 year old, a 16 year old, or a 60 year old. The first thing you're gonna say is, okay, just before we get into it, tell me what you think you should do and just stop talking. And you learn so much about the people that you love. Even if it's a six year old who like had a fight with Bobby at school and you go, okay, well what do you think you should do tomorrow? Now maybe the kid says, I think I should go in and punch him in the face. You're not gonna be like, good plan, right? But it tells you what is in the kid's mind. Same thing with a 16 year old. Same thing with a 60 year old. You don't know. And so when we're so quick to want everything to be okay, to want to fix it, to be like, you don't have to suffer at all. Yes, you do. Because this is a mandate of being a human being on planet Earth. We're going to struggle with things. It's okay for people to struggle. So you start with saying, all right, tell me what you should do. And if people are used to you giving them the answers, because they are, because you've been auto advice giving your ass off for years, they're gonna be like, but I wanna know what you think. I'll always say, and listen, I do this for a living. So people, of course they wanna know what I think. I go, okay, in the end, I'm gonna give you my two cents. But babe, it's so much more important what you think, because it's your life. So what I think, you know, I'll tell you. But it's what you think is more important.
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A
Well, and I love the question because it has the added benefit of helping people build their own internal confidence and trust and self and inner knowing and all of these things that I think we do so much better in life listening to. But we need to practice when and to a certain extent, we need to be taught and allowed. That's what jumped in my mind with that question. Again, brilliant across the board, no matter what age. But what we allow for another person when we do that, I think is a gift.
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C
Such a great point, because I usually talk about the fact that what is the subtext when we're auto advice giving? We're like, I don't think you're gonna figure this out for sure. For sure. You're not. And we'd never want to. That never is the message we want for kids for sure. But even with grownups, this is where the presumption that we know better comes in and people feel like problems for you to fix it is so dehumanizing. I hate it when someone does it to me. It makes me so mad. I will immediately say, hey for my HFC friends, which of course we all travel in back, so I have plenty of them. I'll say, hey, I'm not looking for solutions, babe. I love you. I just want to vent. I'm just feeling bad and I just want to be witnessed. Can you just be with me where I am right now? I'd also because I've got a big enough ego that it would piss me off. I'd be like, you think you have the answer for my look at my life. I'm doing okay. I know how to figure shit out. But there's something that's so loving to be like, I'm here, even though this is uncomfortable, but I'm here with you. Another one, the traits, Nicole, that I wanted to point out because I think it's very common. We have auto advice giving. We've got the self sacrificing, but the auto accommodating and the anticipatory planning. So auto accommodating is something that we sort of do in public, in public spheres, like controlling things. It could be on a plane, somebody wants to sit together and you're like, I'll move, you know? And again, people on the interwebs out in those interweb streets want to tell me, hey, Terri, maybe I'm just nice. I'm like, here's the thing. I have no doubt you are nice. But if you can't not do is a compulsion. It is not your niceness. Okay, so we have to look at that. If you can pause, which I teach you to do in the book, all these steps of like how do I stop this automatic behavior that is just killing my nervous system and not good for my relationships. And all of those things is we have to pause. We have to take a break if you decide. Because some people would be like, well, I love basically over giving. I'm like, go you if it's a conscious choice and your eyes are wide open as from a therapeutic point of view. That's all I want for people that you're not running on autopilot because you will not build the life that you want. You know I've had women come into my practice in their sixth, seventh, eighth decade of life being like, I've done it all. I've done, you know, kids are all on track, they've all gone to Ivy League schools. I'm on these boards, I'm still going to Soul Cycle. I kind of like my husband. We travel, like, and literally their question to me is, is this all there is? Right? And I'm like, yeah, because you built your life checking boxes that other people constructed, taking one for the team, saying yes when you want to say no, being overly self sacrificing to the point where you didn't even have a. You don't even know who you are. And so there's an existential crisis that can come about from that life, and you deserve so much more than that, you know?
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A
So what I'm hearing is it's the distinction between default versus choice and then thinking through the choice from the lens of how am I gonna feel doing this or after doing this. You mentioned resentment a couple times. I would imagine that's a pretty big tell if we have defaulted into codependency versus making the conscious choice of wanting to be nice or G. So talk to us about resentment, what it's telling us.
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C
Yes, I love it. It's one of the first things. And you guys listening. You can do this right now, right? Is take a quick resentment inventory because this acts as a very accurate GPS as to what relationships probably need your attention. Meaning maybe you're over functioning. Maybe you need to set a limit, maybe you need to set a boundary, maybe you need to have a conversation. But I love using resentment. It's such a value, it's such good data for us to look at. So you can, let's just say go. Okay, so who am I copying resentment for right now? Okay, so maybe it's your sister. Let's say I'm mad at my sister. You know, I share this in a boundary boss book. When me and my sister were living in New York, we both had separate apartments. She had keys to mine, I had keys to her. Anyway, she would go into my apartment and take my things without telling me. So multiple times I've been like, hey man, you need to ask me like, I'm looking for something, but I don't have it because it's at your place or whatever it is. So if that were the case, I'd say, okay, I'm resentful because she does that. And before I had a conversation with her, then you look and go, all right, what is my 50% of this. Well, my 50% was before I talked to her is that I hadn't. I would mention it, but I hadn't had a serious conversation. Like she didn't know how much it was actually bothering me. So what is the action plan that I could take is I could have an honest conversation with her and I would eventually. And I did set a consequence that if she didn't stop, I was gonna take my keys back, which is a drag because then I knew she'd take her keys back and we'd only have one closet instead of two. Right. Just don't be an idiot. Just let me know what you're doing. So that's how you guys are gonna do it. You're gonna look at, what are you feeling? What is your part knit? And is there an action that you can take which you don't have to take today, but it's really understanding because of course, whatever action we can take is empowering. Right? So how do we empower ourselves in our lives? I think a lot of us get very used to having this low grade resentment running. It's almost like this low grade aggravation. Like we just can't wait. We're like, please let some motherfucker cut me off in traffic. I cannot wait to explode on this person. If you're in this state of. It almost feels like perpetual annoyance to me. That's a lot of times an indication of high functioning codependency, where we're getting to a point where the way that I see the cycle is that when you're younger and you got all the bandwidth in the world, you get too many Fs to too many people just caring about all the things. And then after a long time, that pendulum swings all the way to the other side. And I'm teaching a class right now on this and someone was like, I'm so bitter about. I don't want to do anything in caps for anyone in caps is what the question was. And I feel bad. She's like my husband, asking about for anything. I literally want to kill him. Like, I'm so done. Because we wait too long to manage what we need to manage. We don't set limits. We don't tell the truth about the way we feel. We feel trapped in this behavioral dynamic that we've begun doing all the things for all the people and we don't know how to stop. So what I teach you in the book is how to stop. But respect your resentment because it has so much to teach you about next Steps.
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A
Well. And what I'm hearing too is catching it early on, noticing it early on. Because what I know I've done is let resentment build and fester and not acknowledge my responsibility in it and how I'm in effect enabling the situation.
- [30:12]
C
Yeah, absolutely.
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A
I have a pet peeve around the term self care. I feel like it's tossed around and misused and drives me bananas. But you talk about self consideration, correct? Help us with the distinction. And I think I'm going to love this a lot better.
- [30:28]
C
Yeah, I'm with you on the self care because it's done to death and nobody even knows what it means. You're like mani pedi mask. What is it? Self consideration is the big umbrella that real self care goes under. But because I'm a therapist, the way that I also look at real self care is in every decision you're making, you are considering yourself first. So what you think, how you feel and what you want has to matter. But here's the thing, it has to matter to you more than what anyone else wants, thinks or feels, which people think is selfish. They're like, oh my God, no. Because we can and we will still choose to compromise if you're in relationships, we can still self sacrifice consciously if we choose to, mindfully if we want to. But what happens is when we prioritize what other people want, think and feel over what we want, think and feel, first of all, a lot of times we eventually don't even know what we want, think or feel, but we then put that responsibility on other people. We now turn it into the fact that other people are entitled. And I remember having this conversation with a therapist in my late 20s and she was like, is Betty entitled or are you just serving yourself up on a silver platter? And you're just pissed you. She's like, terri, takers are gonna take and you are this consummate giver and you're mad, you're offering and you're mad she's taking you up on it. How about stop offering? You know, like, stop blaming the other person. So, yes. Anyway, long way around the barn to get back to the fact that self consideration encompasses making decisions where you consider yourself first. And if you're in a family system or a marriage or you have kids, listen, this doesn't mean we're like, a kid needs to get picked up from ballet. We're gonna pick that kid up whether we want to or not. You can self consider yourself all day and you're still gonna get in the car and go get Them. It's not that, but it's about being honest with yourself and allowing yourself to just not wanna do things. Sometimes I just don't wanna. Why do we feel like that's not. You know, you don't have to write a fucking dissertation on your. No, you really don't. There are things I just personally don't like to do. I don't like, let's say like outside. I don't like that. So when people ask me I'm like bugs and sun and people singing. No, I don't want to do that. Thank you. So I'm not. Would my friend invent outside concerts? You shouldn't be offended. Of course nobody asked me to do that anymore because they all know. But it's almost like we feel overly responsible for like I don't want to hurt someone's feelings. And you're like, how about in all of that time that you self abandon, you're hurting your own feelings and this.
- [33:20]
A
Builds the resentment and creating distance in your relationships. Right. When we self abandon, we are not being authentic and transparent and present in our relationships.
- [33:32]
C
Absolutely.
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A
Okay, so I know in the book you emphasize allowing and surrendering as sort of the antidote to controlling and codependency and Mel Robbins let them theory just came out. Where do these intersect or not? Is there a similarity? I'm curious your thoughts on let them allowing surrendering as it relates to those of us who identify as high functioning codependents.
- [34:00]
C
I think it's a little less simple than. It's not as simple as let them in my estimation, although I do actually talk about it in the book. It's we. There's a bunch of things that need to shift for us to get into recovery which is all we can hope to do because this is an ongoing situation. Because you may. Oh, I still want to over function for everyone in the world. I just don't. It's just like drinking. I stopped drinking 1987. Does that mean I don't want to drink? No, it just means I change behavior. It just means I just don't drink. And this is the same thing. And it gets less and less of course. So when it comes to other people, when you start asking expansive questions instead of auto advice giving or being all directive, you're already shifting the dynamics in your relationship. You're already going to be deepening your real closeness with others. It's hard to put down the protection of knowing everything. It's hard to put down that we use our high functioning ways to protect ourselves emotionally. But you're strong. And so it's okay to just not know. It's okay. We have to learn to let the chips fall where they may, when they're not our mother chips, as I like to say. And we think all the fucking chips are our chips when we're HFCs, but they're really not. So, yes, surrendering to what is right. That's what I had to do in my sister's situation. I had to surrender to the fact that you. She was a sovereign being and that that was the situation that she was in, even though it made me incredibly uncomfortable and sad, and that it was her right to learn. Because here's the thing. People have the right to succeed and fail, to thrive and to flail. But if you're an hfc, we would like people to not flail in our vicinity. We don't like flailing. And yet this is a part of life. And so part of it is you're going to learn to be uncomfortable. You're going to learn to say, I don't know. You're going to ask people expansive questions like, what do you think you should do if the only thing you change from listening to this beautiful podcast is instead of auto advice giving, you simply ask people what they thought they should do. And then what? And then what? Is there more you want to say about that? It will literally change your life. So we're not talking about. You don't have to become a different person. All of your amazing qualities from being an hfc, when you're in recovery, they're just amplified because now the dysfunctional ones are way less so you get to be more present, There gets to be more joy. You're accepting people for where they are. People are not projects in your life. Right? We have to get used to the fact that we might disappoint people. You know, Cheryl Richardson has a book called Let me disappoint you. So let's just get used to it. Let me disappoint you, because that's part of life, too. And when you get to that side, what ends up happening is the relationships you have. And the relationship with yourself is so much healthier, happier, more joyful. So I don't just say let them, because for me, that it doesn't work. I'm a psychotherapist. It's too simplistic for me. What I loved about Mel Rob, this idea, right, is that what does it do to your central nervous system? See, I say put it down. I say, when you realize what you're carrying is not yours. Put it down. And this sort of. There's trauma work that we do around this too, where you can take it and put it up in a closet somewhere. Like, there's all different visualizations that we can do to help. But I like the idea of putting it down. Not because I'm gonna let someone, quote, unquote, ruin their life. Cause what's ironic about the let them theory is that it's an illusion that you're letting, or not letting anyway. Like, literally, these are grown people, right? I'm letting. What am I, the Wizard of Oz? Like, Like I'm not letting them do it. So I like the idea of just putting it down. The relief you'll feel, though, which is the relief I felt when my therapist basically said she was like, terri, I'm not saying you shouldn't save Jenna. I'm saying you can't. It's literally an impossibility for you to do it because it's not your life and because you can drag her out of there. But if she's not ready to go, she'll go back. And I think that that's what we have to think about when we are shifting the way we relate in our lives. That you become more loving, not less loving, when you are in recovery from being a high functioning codependent.
- [38:42]
A
Well. And as you were talking, it kind of struck me, not only can't we, but we probably shouldn't too. Because at least for my own life, and I can think of so many people who would agree, the best things, my purpose has all come through flailing and failing and pain. And that's where I've always learned best. That's where my most discovery or awareness has come from. And we wouldn't choose to take that from someone. But that's ultimately what we're doing. Because we can't sit in the discomfort.
- [39:20]
C
Correct. How are we preparing children in this world when we're solving their problems, when we're afraid to let them feel any discomfort, when we want to stomp down and tell this one's parent or go to the T, go to the principal. Like, how about let Bobby figure it out. Help him. Help him brainstorm with Bobby. But have faith. Because what is the message we wanna give to Bobby and to all the people that we love is, you got this and I got you.
- [39:51]
A
Terri Cole. I could talk to you all day long, but we are out of time. I'm gonna remind our listeners to go to terricole.com to find and follow and learn more about all of your work. And I know you have a gift for us. So let me just ask about that real quick and then I'll close this out.
- [40:05]
C
Sure. All right. So I have a gift. It's an HFC toolkit because I know we talked about a lot of stuff and this will help, like make it smaller. Go to terricole.comhfc for high functioning codependency and it's a simplify and do less. It's a video and a PDF because we have a tendency to do so much. There's a self love meditation there that I voiced for you. There's a power of no meditation as well. And there's other. There's more information on that page for anything else that you would want to to do.
- [40:34]
A
Incredible. And thank you. Reminder. The book is called Too Much. Terri, thank you so much for being here today.
- [40:41]
C
Thank you so much for this enlivening conversation. Nicole.
- [40:44]
A
My pleasure. All right, friend. It turns out this episode was for me, and maybe it was for you too. Because high functioning codependency doesn't care how successful you are, how many people rely on you, or how well you're holding it all together. In fact, it thrives in those spaces. It uses your capability and capacity and slaps a gold star on it so you don't notice what it's costing you. It convinces you that being endlessly helpful is the same as being whole. So if you recognize yourself in any of what we talked about today, if the resentment is creeping in, if you're exhausted and the weight of carrying it all feels too damn heavy, if you're tired of being the emotional first responder in every relationship, I hope this is your invitation to pause, to question, to reclaim your energy, your boundaries, and your worth outside of what you do and who you are for everyone else. Because you deserve more than being needed. You deserve to be known, seen, supported, and loved for who you are, not just what you give. You are inherently valuable and worthy. And knowing that will always be woman's work.
- [42:00]
B
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