Annemarie Anderson (4:31)

Oh, Nicole, I love that introduction because it encompasses all of it. It's not a straight line. Right. It's a lot of gray. I thought that audacity was something to avoid. My parents used to say to me when I was a teenager, you have the audacity to speak to me that way or the audacity to ask me? I thought I needed to avoid it. And then once I dug into it, the willingness to take bold risks, well, that's the definition I ended up choosing because you mentioned there's two different ways to do it. I chose the willingness to take bold risks because I think a lot of times, especially in women in business, we take that, oh, be a good girl from when we're little, into business and it doesn't work. It doesn't work. You need to shed it.

Nicole Kahlil (5:16)

Yeah. And it has us living small. Right. Because ultimately what I think happens and again, I'm open to Pushback on this. What I think often happens for us, especially as women, is we get so worried about other people seeing what we do as the bad version of audacity that we end up not doing the good version. Thought, oh, yes.

Annemarie Anderson (5:39)

I mean, my father, who was my greatest cheerleader, he's passed now. He said to me once when I was 11, Amerie, you're getting cocky. And I was mortified, right? This poor man who had said nothing but encouraging things my entire life. And I hang on to one thing that he said when I was 11, as I was writing the book, Nicole, I decided to look up cocky, the word cocky. Because really, I was like, oh, don't be too cocky. And it said, so sure of one's abilities that it annoys other people. And I thought, well, wait a second, am I sure of my abilities after 30 plus years in television? Yeah, I'm sure of my abilities that it annoys other people. Well, as my teenagers would say, that's opp. Other people's problems. And that's a great perspective shift. And audacity and cocky often get labeled together.

Nicole Kahlil (6:26)

Yeah. And other people's problems, and we have no control over it anyway. It doesn't matter what we do. We're bound to annoy some people. And so it isn't part of audacity. Taking bold risk based on what's meant for you, what lights you up, what you believe to be your purpose, what you're most excited about. Like it can't be wrapped up in what everybody else thinks, or else it's loses the audacity. Right, Right.

Annemarie Anderson (6:51)

I was going to say, then it's not audacious. I mean, part of being audacious isn't just like swinging for the fences just because. Just living, taking bold risks just because. Because there's risks that are reckless for sure. And then there are some that are worth it. The big thing that I tell people with audacity is that it isn't about anybody else. It is about learning your path because you'll make some steps that don't work out. We talk about failures and fears that people like to avoid all the time, but once you get really audacious and practice it, that's just data. Every single failure, every fear that you have, that's just information that's going to push you closer to your values and vision and who you really want to be in this world.

Nicole Kahlil (7:35)

100%. Yeah. And getting all of your ducks in a row and dotting all the I's and crossing all the t's and not having your foolproof plan and all of that. First, it's impossible. And second, not very audacious. Part of this is the risk. It's the unknown. It's the, as you said, learning as you go, collecting evidence and data, so you learn a little bit more about what not to do so that you can get closer to what to do.

Annemarie Anderson (8:03)

Yeah. You know I always talk about fomo, right? People have fear of missing out. I don't have that. I have Jomo. I same once in a while, right? When you get to this age, you're like, yeah, I'm sorry, I can't go to that party. I'm gonna lay on the floor with my dog. But what I do have a fear of is staying the same. Because when you stay the same, the only possible outcome is no growth. You're not going to grow if you stay the same. So. And it took a while, I think, in writing this book, a lot of people said to me, well, you're lucky you're so bold. You know, I'm not like that. Well, I wasn't. It was really a practice to do that. And it took getting comfortable with the fact that not everything is going to work out. But as long as I'm not staying the same, there's always that potential for growth.

Nicole Kahlil (8:47)

Anne Marie, you make a good point. And teaming up perfectly for the question I was going to ask, which is this belief that I think many of us have or hold on to, that you're either born bold or you're born willing to take risks or extroverted or whatever it is. And you say that audacity is something that we can each cultivate. So how do we do that? Regardless of what our starting point is right now, on our boldness or willingness to take risk, how do we begin to cultivate audacity in our lives?

Annemarie Anderson (9:20)

I'm so glad you asked, because it's the word cultivate that's key, right? It's about growing it. So here's. There's three components to audacity. There's the mindset of audacity. And the mindset, really, Nicole, is honestly just optimism, Right? The belief that things are going to work out, not that they're going to work out the way that you think you want them to be, but that you're going to survive whatever that outcome is. It's pure optimism. If you think about playing sports and you're down by 12 at the half, why do you come out and play the second half? Because you think, well, maybe we might be able to Win. So that's just mindset. Second thing is the behavior, the action, and audacious behavior, because you can sit on your mother's couch being audacious all day long, being optimistic, and nothing's going to happen. Not a damn thing is going to change in your life. So until you take an action, and it can be any action, that's how you start to cultivate. And I tell people, just start as small as you need to the word no. And it can be if you're a mom and they call you and say, hey, can you help us with the yearbook? No. If you don't, if that doesn't fit into your plan is enough. Just taking some form of action. So you marry that optimism with action. When that becomes a habit and consistent, that's when you build your identity. So there's audacious mindset, audacious behavior, and audacious identity. And you'll know when you hit that identity. When people go from what is Nicole doing? To that's Nicole, she swings forward the fences. And that takes practice.

Nicole Kahlil (10:52)

I mean, the way we get good at anything is practice. Right. And yet I think a lot of times we struggle with the how to practice. So I love this three part sort of system, if you will. And I love especially the mindset part optimism. I would add the word confidence because it's a word I love, but I have confidence as firm and bold, trust in self. And so I think there is this element of confidence or optimism, this idea that I'm going to be okay no matter what.

Annemarie Anderson (11:22)

Yes, exactly.

Nicole Kahlil (11:24)

Succeed or I'll grow, I'll win or I'll learn. I'll come out the other side somehow better. It's this. I don't know. Faith often pops up. But I love the mindset piece. The optimism, the confidence, the God, I don't know what's going to happen. And I love that you said that it might not turn out. It probably won't exactly the way you want, but that it might turn out better, or that you might learn something or what have you such an incredible life lesson that I think we can continue to learn over and over again.

Annemarie Anderson (11:54)

So, Nicole, let me ask one thing right there. And it also might turn out to be everything that you fear. Okay. And yet you survived that. That's really important, too, if you're afraid. I think fear just closes us down of rejection, failure, embarrassment, judgment, whatever it is, part of that confidence or that optimism is knowing you can survive that, too.

Nicole Kahlil (12:19)

Right now, you've been surrounded by elite achievers for decades. You are one yourself. What do you think we can learn from them about cultivating audacity?

Annemarie Anderson (12:34)

I think that there are always barriers in our way. Right. And all the people I've interviewed, the people I've observed over the last three plus decades, it always comes down to one of four things. Fear, time, money, or you're in a critic. Why people don't live audaciously, why they don't take the risk. And some people would love to say, just go for it, don't be afraid. Well, you can't stop somebody from being afraid. And so I don't. In the book, I go very specifically into each barrier and not at one point do I say, well, don't feel that, don't do that, don't allow that. I really want you to let the fear in and explore it and swim around in it, maybe catastrophize. What's the worst possible thing that could happen? You know, all the way to the point where you digest the tuten alone. You know, I think that's probably not going to happen. But you're probably also not going to win the Pulitzer Prize in your first attempt either. And I think once people start to get comfortable in, yeah, this fear or this barrier is part of me. How can I manage it? How can I. I've got so much going on, I don't possibly have time. How can I manage my time better without losing all my sleep in order to make things happen? I think there's a curiosity amongst the elite performers that I have seen throughout my life that has been kind of the unifying trait of all of them. They're curious about what they're feeling and experiencing and attempting to be thwarted by.

Nicole Kahlil (14:08)

Yeah, I don't know why this popped into my head while you were talking, but it's sort of this concept of like, you can have your barriers or your barriers can have you. And with these sort of elite achievers, it's not that they don't have barriers. They have just as many, maybe more. Right. But that they, as you said, are curious. Almost like observing those barriers as opposed to having those barriers own and control them.

Annemarie Anderson (14:38)

That's a hundred percent it. When. When I feel fear, and I still do.

Nicole Kahlil (14:43)

Right.

Annemarie Anderson (14:43)

I'm a keynote speaker. I've got all kinds of things going. I actually now think about, well, what am I exactly? Am I afraid of? What am I afraid of? Could that happen? My first time on television was in 78 million homes. My very first time. That was not the plan, Nicole. I was supposed to be like on A little regional network. A few different things happened. And my first one was there, and I was nearly paralyzed. And my husband at the time said, what's the worst that can happen? I hate that question. People always like to ask that question. I'm like, oh, let me tell you.

Nicole Kahlil (15:15)

Yeah, it can be really bad. Everybody's dying.

Annemarie Anderson (15:18)

Yeah, exactly. Like, I digest shooting alone, basically, at the end of it. But I thought, okay, I could be embarrassed, I could be judged. I could be bad on tv. I could lose my producing job. I was embarrassed, I was bad, I was judged, I survived. And I always tell people, the second time on television, the only thing was better that it wasn't the first time. But I did it again, and I did it again, and that was bad. The 15th time, and on and on. But to your point, each time I got a little bit of data of how to do things a little bit better and far more confident that I could survive other people's judgment or my own embarrassment. That was really the key for me. Auto insurance can all seem the same.

Nicole Kahlil (16:01)

Until it comes time to use it.

Annemarie Anderson (16:03)

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Nicole Kahlil (16:32)

I like this. What's the worst that can happen? I often then force myself to answer the question, what's the best that could happen? Just to provide some opposite perspective. What I've experienced is 99% of the time, what actually happens is somewhere in the middle. As you said, you don't die and you don't win the Pulitzer first time out. There's usually somewhere in the middle. Okay, so my next question, and I have some thoughts on this, but why do you believe that we need to cultivate audacity? Why is it important?

Annemarie Anderson (17:04)

Because I think there's a certain innovation in our own lives. You talk about innovation in business and. And free thinking and stuff, but I think in our own lives, in order for us to be successful and engaged and happy. And my success, my definition of success, has nothing to do with money, business status. It's about waking up every day to a life you're excited about. You need to be moving in a direction, and there's, you know, forward or there's backwards So I think for us to be audacious, to live and in challenge, it gives us in the morning, something just that little extra spark, whether it is fear, whether it is joy. But for me, audacity is the human experience. You're living, you're feeling, you're not just going through some blinded motions.

Nicole Kahlil (17:51)

And it almost is the propeller of purpose. Right. Like, if you think about this concept that I firmly believe that we are all here for. For none of us are here by accident. We're all inherently worthy and valuable and we all have purpose or many, many purposes. But I don't know how any of us step into those purposes or live that purpose without cultivating audacity. I don't see how that could even be possible. Do you know anybody who's done something huge and big and lived into their purpose that didn't first have to cultivate some sort of audacity?

Annemarie Anderson (18:29)

No, absolutely not. But I do know a lot of people who are afraid to challenge, explore their purpose because of the fear that things won't turn out the way that they want. You know what, here, you know, here's a plot twist. They're never going to turn out the way you want. They're going to turn out differently, better, perhaps more amazing or on a different path. You can't see exactly the outcome because it could be bigger and more outstanding than you could dream of. But nobody gets, as you say, into their purpose or into a joyful life they're excited about without pushing some boundaries.

Nicole Kahlil (19:10)

Yeah. And without other people having opinions about it, which I want to get to in a second. But before I do, you gave us four sort of common barriers. Fear, time, money, and your inner critic. How do we uncover what is holding us back? I would venture a guess. Some of us think it's one thing, but it might actually be something else. So how might we uncover or discover what actually is getting in our way?

Annemarie Anderson (19:39)

Yes, and that's. I go into, into this in the book quite a bit because here's the deal. You have to about a funnel of. Or at least the way I do it, I should say you can do it any way you want. But what's worked for me is to have a funnel of what my life, what I want it to look like. A lot of people use the term icky guy for it, Right. What are you good at? What does the world need? What can you be paid to do and such. I think that important for all of us is to look at what it is we want. Pay attention to what sticks in your Gut. If there is a will, I will win. I will win what when I have more time. We all know that's a farce. That's why I talk about something called the urgency fallacy, where we reprioritize really what's important over urgent, because we can all do urgent all damn day, really. I mean, everything's urgent. But until you put some of that aside. Or is it, I will do that when I have more money. Well, you never really get enough money, as far as I know. And I have some really wealthy friends, and I have some friends that are paycheck to paycheck. Nobody ever says, you know what? I have so much money, I don't know what to do with it. I think I will, you know, now go for it. So it is about seeing which one makes you the most queasy. Are you. Are you hearing yourself saying, you're not ready, you're not qualified, they have more qualifications than you? Then your inner critic is a real issue. And I think as women especially and women in business, we talk about glass ceilings and shattering glass ceilings. But the real issue for me, Nicole, is the sticky floor. So many of us are stuck to the floor, waiting for the right moment when. When I'm not afraid, when I have more time, more money and such. So it's about not waiting anymore for when. And as you don't wait, believe me, those barriers will make themselves apparent to you.

Nicole Kahlil (21:30)

Yeah. Okay, so let's say we choose to unstick ourself from that sticky floor and we begin to cultivate audacity in the steps you've laid out. It's probably a matter of seconds before somebody comes along and has an opinion about it. Any advice or thoughts or tips about how to hold on to our audacity in the face of everybody else's thoughts, opinions, comments, and feedback?

Annemarie Anderson (22:01)

I'm a big believer in curating what I call a front row. Your front row are those people who are going to push you, lift you up, hold you accountable, check in with you, cheer you on without fear of jealousy or competition. Now, I'm going to tell you a secret, Nicole. The people in your front row are probably not your mom and probably not your best friend because they want you to stay safe. Right? The people in your front row, they don't want you to stay safe. They have no vested interest in your outcome. It is all for you, and they're here to cheer you on. Anybody that is not in your front row does not get a vote. So when we're on social media and somebody is saying something to you. They do not get a vote because they don't know you and you did not select them to be in your front row. I have a very carefully curated front row for all different parts of my life. I have a fitness front row where if I don't show up, I get the call, where are you? What's going on? I have a professional front row, a TV front row, a relationship front row. I mean, certainly when I got divorced, I had a group of friends who were like, how are you? Here's the thing. Have you done this yet? Have you done that? So I think creating a front row, carefully curating it and plucking out the ones that get in there that really shouldn't be in there, that's an important part of living audaciously.

Nicole Kahlil (23:32)

I love that so much. I have talked about having different types of friends and one of those friends I call front row friends, these are the people who want the best friends. You, who cheer you on, who celebrate you, who challenge you and all that. What I haven't heard that I love as an added element is it's unlikely to be your mom, especially parents, man, they just want us to stay safe. They want us to take risks. But not too many, right. Not too old. So as. And I love the point that we are curating and selecting these people and that we can unselect people along the way if they don't prove themselves to be front row worthy.

Annemarie Anderson (24:13)

Right. And that doesn't mean they're bad people, by the way.

Nicole Kahlil (24:16)

No, that doesn't mean, of course their.

Annemarie Anderson (24:17)

Their own, their own fears may be seeping into your journey and that's why they may have to be refute, removed from the front row because they're so afraid of risk or whatever it is you're trying to do that they start trying to talk you away from it. That's all.

Nicole Kahlil (24:32)

Yeah. Or they just might need to be slotted into another type of friend. Right. Like, so I talk about hide the body friends. They're people who show up when you've done the worst thing and help you problem solve. Right. There is your blanket fort friends, the people you're always safe with and comfortable. And there's always snacks. Right. Like we all have these different types. So. So what I'm hearing you say is they might not be a front row person for now for a variety of different reasons. That does not make them bad people, bad friends, or that they don't care about you. So give us some sense of what are the factors you think through when you decide who gets to be in your front row.

Annemarie Anderson (25:12)

So I love that you asked that question because one of the things, and I was just talking about two of my front row friends the other day, I was talking about this with them. We always talk about great friends as the ones that you go to when things are really bad. Like who are the ones that are going to be on top of you. But there's another level of friendship and those are the ones you call when things are great, when something really great happened. And if you were to tell the world, it would be bragging. But you call those friends and you tell them because you know without jealousy and stuff, they are cheering you on. So that's one thing I've added in the last year and a half as an element in my front row. Who are the ones that I can tell the greatest stuff and they're not going to be eye roll, oh my gosh, she's bragging. But they're going to be like, yeah, hell yeah, you worked for that. So that's one thing I look for. Two, do they have their own thing, their own gift? Are you able to support them in their front row? Having somebody who's all about you, that isn't a relationship. That's really one sided. So my front row friends are a bunch of badass women and men who are striving to their own audacious goals, who are exploring their life with vigor and curiosity. That's something that's really important for me because I don't want it to be just about me. I want it to be about them and their journey, which can be completely different from mine. And I think that's an important thing. I want people that are just as fearful and hopeful and optimistic and grinding as I am in whatever field they're in, so that I can support them. And I'm inspired by their work.

Nicole Kahlil (26:58)

An excellent point. Again, not one I've thought of, but if you just take a step back, it's hard to imagine somebody respecting and appreciating audacity in you if they're not cultivating it themselves for themselves. And so that makes sense to my brain. It doesn't have to be that they're cultivating the same or similar things, but they've got to have their thing, yes, whatever it is, in order to understand, appreciate, celebrate it in you.

Annemarie Anderson (27:26)

Right, absolutely. And I always say it's really important because people tend to think, well, it's got to be this big audacious goal. Sometimes what you want for cultivating audacity is to get out of something. Maybe it's a relationship that isn't serving you. Maybe you're living somewhere that you don't enjoy. Maybe you want to spend more time with your children in a certain way. Maybe you want to spend. And I'm not even being funny, otherwise it comes out that way. Less time with your children and start working on some goals that are important to you and aren't always about somebody else. So it can be anything. So whatever their goal is, it doesn't have to be some big business goal or some big flashy goal. Whatever it is, they've got something they're trying to create, and I want to be right in their front row to help them create it, to tell them the truth. Also, when they're not doing something that they said was important to them.

Nicole Kahlil (28:19)

Yeah. There's something about the person who's willing to almost risking the relationship to sort of call you out or to challenge you on something that you've articulated, mattered or was important or that you really wanted to do. That's, to me, next level, love and care and friendship. Okay, Annemarie, you said this earlier on. I want to circle back. Let's say somebody's thinking about something, something they want to do, something they want to walk toward or walk away from. That requires audacity, and we know it's going to require optimistic mindset, action, behavior changes, and it'll ultimately become part of consistency, ultimately becoming part of your identity. But you also said fear doesn't go away. So for the person who practices and goes through and does, like you said, the smallest step or the next step or whatever, and fear keeps popping up. Any words of wisdom or advice for that?

Annemarie Anderson (29:18)

Yeah, let it. Don't push it away. Acknowledge it. This is scary stuff that I'm doing. And that's literally Nicole it. You don't need to have some way to tie it up and box it away. I'm really afraid, and I'm doing this.

Nicole Kahlil (29:35)

Yeah.

Annemarie Anderson (29:35)

How about that? This is scary. And I'm gonna do it and be scared while I do it, period. I think we just want some kind of answer for it. Like, you know, is there an elixir that we can take to make this not feel so fearful once you get comfortable with it? And I call it. I call it, like, recalibrating your relationship with rejection or making friends with fear. I swear, this sounds so crazy because, believe it or not, I am an introvert. Like, when I'm not working, I just want to sleep and be quiet by myself. But I've gotten to the point now where fear comes in and I'm like, hey there, come on in. Like, you don't get to make any decisions. Like, for my inner critic, I know you're going to be with me the whole time. You're going to be in the passenger seat. I get it. But you don't get to drive. I'll be making those decisions. I acknowledge you're going to come along for the ride.

Nicole Kahlil (30:22)

I feel like that's similar to something I read many years ago, because that analogy has stuck with me. This idea that, yes, fear, worry, doubt, all those are in the passenger seats. They're along for the ride, and resisting them doesn't help. They're there, but not letting them get in the driver's seat is the distinction. I also am curious your thoughts on this is one of the things I do when fear kicks up, because it always does, no matter how much I've practiced or faced it is I remind myself of things that I was afraid of a year ago or five years ago. Because sometimes doing that reminds me that while fear hasn't gone anywhere and it is part of the journey, that I'm getting better at it or that I've evolved into something bigger. Like what I'm afraid of is bigger or more important than what I was afraid of five years ago. As an example, thoughts on that practice.

Annemarie Anderson (31:20)

Right. I mean, again, celebrating all those moments, I think that's something that is really important to us because a lot of times we want to celebrate the outcome. Like, when this happens, we are going to celebrate. But along the way, there's. There's plenty to celebrate. And part of it is, hey, you know what? I'm not as afraid of this as I was back then. That's a celebration. Or I didn't even think about it this time when I got that rejection. I mean, rejections used to hurt me. And I'm in television, for Pete's sake. So, I mean, there's a lot of rejections along the way. And now it isn't at all. It's. It is next. You know, when I hear no, I either hear not yet or next. It's never like, slam the door on your career. I mean, can you imagine in 35 years if the first no shut me down? I would have no career nor this constant drive to challenge myself that I have.

Nicole Kahlil (32:17)

Right. Annemarie. This has been a phenomenal and fascinating conversation. And I know that people listening are going to want to learn more. So I want to remind them that the. The book is called Cultivating Audacity. It's available on Amazon or any bookstore. Let's keep local bookstores in business. And annemarie's website is annmarieanderson.com we'll put that and all other links in show notes so you can find and follow Annemarie. Thank you so much for an incredible conversation.

Annemarie Anderson (32:45)

Thank you so much. I had fun. And whatever your listeners want to do, just take that first step.

Nicole Kahlil (32:50)

Just the first you heard it here first friend. And here's the thing about audacity. It's not being loud for the sake of being loud. Not about stepping on toes just because you can. Audacity is about courage. It's about daring to take the action that feels bold to you, even if others don't get it. It's about choosing to be brave enough to live life on your terms, to pursue the things that matter, and to take the risks that align with who you are and where you want to go. And sure, people might raise an eyebrow or say things behind your back. They might misunderstand you. They might even call you arrogant or shameless. But let me remind you of this first. You shouldn't take constructive criticism from people who have never constructed anything. And the people who make a real impact, who change their own lives and the world around them, are always the ones who had the audacity to take the bold risks anyway. So whatever the thing is for you, the thing that you've been holding back on, hesitating about or overthinking, I hope you decide to go for it. I hope you take up space, speak up, stand tall and claim what's yours. Because at the end of the day, the only people who never upset anyone are the people who never did anything at all. And you. You are made to create, to lead, to risk, and to live fully, boldly, audaciously. Because that is woman's work.

Annemarie Anderson (34:14)

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