Podcast Summary: "How To Defy Expectations with Dr. Sunita Sah | Episode 271"

Podcast Information:

• Title: This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
• Host: Nicole Kalil, Bleav
• Episode Title: How To Defy Expectations with Dr. Sunita Sah | 271
• Release Date: January 13, 2025

Introduction: Challenging Societal Expectations

[00:10] Nicole Kalil opens the episode by addressing the pervasive expectations and opinions surrounding what constitutes "woman's work" today. She emphasizes the dichotomy women often face between defying or conforming to societal norms.

Key Points:

• Defining Woman's Work: From various spheres such as boardrooms, kitchens, and coding dens, the podcast explores the authentic and personalized definitions of women's roles.
• Personal Anecdote: Nicole shares her stance on marriage vows, rejecting traditional notions of obedience and submission.

Notable Quote:

“If I promised to obey my husband, I'd be smote by God on the spot because she would absolutely know that I was lying.”
— Nicole Kalil [00:50]

Guest Introduction: Dr. Sunita Sah

Nicole introduces Dr. Sunita Sah, an award-winning professor at Cornell University, specializing in organizational psychology. Dr. Sah is renowned for her research on influence, authority, compliance, and defiance, and is the author of "The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes."

Redefining Defiance

[03:33] Dr. Sunita Sah delves into her personal journey from a compliant child to an advocate for defiance. She challenges the traditional perception of defiance as merely resisting authority.

Key Points:

• Old vs. New Definition of Defiance:
  • Old Definition: Challenging another's power or resisting openly.
  • New Definition (Dr. Sah): Acting in alignment with one's true values despite external pressures.
• Impact of Compliance:
  • High rates of non-compliance in critical fields like healthcare and aviation can lead to detrimental outcomes.
  • Survey Insight: 9 out of 10 healthcare workers feel uncomfortable speaking up about errors.

Notable Quote:

“To defy is simply to act in accordance with your true values when there is pressure to do otherwise.”
— Dr. Sunita Sah [07:00]

The Role of Values in Defiance

Nicole and Dr. Sah discuss the importance of understanding and internalizing personal values as the foundation for meaningful defiance.

Key Points:

• Discrepancy Between Values and Actions:
  • Many individuals profess high values like integrity but fail to demonstrate them in actions.
  • Survey Data: High school students admit to cheating and lying, highlighting the gap between stated values and behavior.
• Defining and Practicing Values:
  • Recognizing personal values is crucial, but aligning actions with these values requires deliberate practice.

Notable Quote:

“Our actions are often not aligned with our behavior. The distance between who we think we are and what we actually do is enormous.”
— Dr. Sunita Sah [10:00]

Learning to Defy: Strategies and Mindset Shifts

[12:51] Dr. Sah outlines practical steps to cultivate defiance as a positive and proactive force.

Key Points:

• Mindset Shift: Defiance doesn't have to be aggressive or loud; it can be subtle and practiced.
• Defiance as a Practice:
  • Anticipation and Preparation: Visualize potential defiance scenarios and script responses.
  • Neural Pathways: Regular practice makes defiance a natural response.
• Power of Pause:
  • Taking a moment to assess aligns actions with values, reducing impulsive compliance.

Notable Quote:

“Defiance is actually a practice, not a personality. We can incorporate this so we can start anticipating what situations might require defiance because they're actually quite predictable.”
— Dr. Sunita Sah [13:50]

Personal Story: The Power of Small Acts of Defiance

Dr. Sah shares a pivotal childhood memory illustrating that defiance is accessible to everyone, regardless of their usual compliance.

Key Points:

• Story of Her Mother:
  • Faced with racist comments from teenage boys, Dr. Sah's mother stood up firmly, challenging the boys' behavior.
  • This act of defiance left a lasting impact, demonstrating that even small actions can create significant change.
• Ripple Effect: Personal acts of defiance can inspire others and foster a more authentic and value-driven society.

Notable Quote:

“Compliance might be our default, but it's not our destiny. We can learn to be defiant.”
— Dr. Sunita Sah [17:30]

Navigating External Opinions and Advice

The discussion shifts to handling external pressures and opinions when choosing to defy.

Key Points:

• Case Study: Simone Biles
  • Biles' withdrawal from the Olympics is highlighted as an exemplar of defiance aligning with personal well-being over external expectations.
• Balancing Values and Relationships:
  • Defiance involves weighing personal integrity against the desire for harmonious relationships.

Notable Quote:

“It's about connecting with your values and assessing the situation. Like, what is it safe and effective for me to defy?”
— Dr. Sunita Sah [22:00]

Insinuation Anxiety and Its Impact

[23:35] Dr. Sah introduces the concept of "insinuation anxiety," the fear of implying others are wrong, which often hinders defiant actions.

Key Points:

• Insinuation Anxiety: The reluctance to challenge others to avoid implying incompetence or wrongdoing.
• Examples:
  • Avoiding feedback to a taxi driver, hairdresser, or massage therapist despite being dissatisfied.
  • Nurses and airline crew often remain silent to prevent signaling others' incompetence.
• Overcoming Insinuation Anxiety:
  • Power of Pause: Taking a moment to create psychological distance and reaffirm alignment with personal values.

Notable Quote:

“We often do that. And it could be in these small things, but it also could be the reason why the nurses didn't speak up...”
— Dr. Sunita Sah [25:00]

Embracing Doubt as a Catalyst for Defiance

Nicole probes the relationship between doubt and defiance, questioning if doubt undermines the ability to defy.

Key Points:

• Doubt as a Signal: Doubt often manifests as tension, serving as a precursor to defiant action.
• Stages of Defiance: Defiance begins with recognizing tension, followed by deeper emotional and cognitive processes leading to action.

Notable Quote:

“Tension can also come up as anxiety, right? So listening to that tension, acknowledging it, the first stages of learning how to defy and not.”
— Dr. Sunita Sah [28:00]

Conclusion: Defiance as Authentic Self-expression

Nicole wraps up the conversation by reinforcing that defiance is not about rebellion for its own sake but about staying true to one's values and authentic self.

Key Points:

• Defiance and Authenticity: Choosing to defy societal expectations fosters genuine and value-aligned living.
• Empowerment: Encouraging listeners to trust themselves and prioritize their well-being over external demands.

Notable Quote:

“It's about trusting yourself enough to say no when the world demands yes... It makes you true to your values and to the one person that you should always be true to, and that's yourself.”
— Nicole Kalil [32:00]

Final Thoughts and Resources

• Book Recommendation: "The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes" by Dr. Sunita Sah.
• Further Information: Listeners are encouraged to visit nicolekalil.com and sunitasad.com for more resources and to follow Dr. Sah.

Overall Insights: This episode powerfully dissects the concept of defiance, reframing it from a negative resistance to a positive alignment with personal values. Dr. Sunita Sah provides actionable strategies for embracing defiance, highlighting its necessity in achieving authentic and fulfilling lives for women today. Through personal stories and empirical research, the conversation underscores that defiance is an accessible and essential practice for navigating and redefining women's roles in contemporary society.