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This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
How To Eat Lunch with Cheryl K. Johnson | 277
00:25:10
Cheryl K. Johnson, author of Box Lunch Lifestyle, shares how to transform your lunch break into a moment of mindful refueling. Learn why lunch might be the most impactful change you can make to fuel your day and reclaim your energy.
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- [00:01]
A
Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home out indecision, overthinking, second guessing every choice you make in plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done out beige on beige on beige and knowing what to do, when to do it and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. This is a mini meditation guided by Bombas. Repeat after me. I'm comfy. Comfy. I'm cozy. Cozy. I have zero blisters on my toes. Blisters. And that's because I wear Bombus the softest socks, underwear and T shirts that give back. One purchased equals one donated. Now go to bombus.com listen and use code listen for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O-M-S.com listen and use code Listen at checkout.
- [01:08]
B
I am Nicole Kahlil, your host of the this Is Woman's Work podcast, and I know what you're thinking. Do we really need an episode on how to eat lunch? I mean, haven't we all managed to shovel something edible into our faces in the middle of the day for like our entire lives? But be honest, are you actually eating lunch? Or are you inhaling it at your desk? Or on the go between meetings and errands? Or worse, are you skipping it entirely because there's always something more important? Here's the deal. Eating lunch shouldn't be some revolutionary concept, but for many of us, it really is. We've turned something that should be nourishing and energizing into something mindless into yet another mind fuck about calories. Or something mindless, where we grab what's close and convenient without bothering to think about how it will make us feel. And somewhere in the mix, we've lost sight of what lunch and a true break can actually do for our energy, our minds and our bodies, and yes, even our productivity. So if you're tired of spending your afternoons in a post coffee slump, or if you if you've been on autopilot or don't believe you even have time for a mindful lunch, well then, this episode is for you. Our guest is going to show us why lunch might be the most impactful change we can make to fuel our days and have energy for what matters most. Today's guest, Cheryl K. Johnson, is here to bring us back to basics in the best possible way. She's a researcher by profession, but a longtime food and fitness enthusiast at heart. She's lived a life of balancing the push and pull between career and self Care. And when she realized her own career was no longer feeding her pun absolutely intended, she crafted an entirely new approach, which she calls the box lunch lifestyle. Cheryl's method is all about carving out time for a real lunch break that's not just about eating, but about reclaiming a bit of life that's rightfully ours. How to build that better lunch break and why it matters so much is the subject of her book, Box Lunch Lifestyle, and she's here to teach us how. So, Cheryl, thanks for coming on the show. And I think we've heard all heard the expression that breakfast is the most important meal of the day. So I want to kick us off by asking, why lunch? Why is that the thing that you focused and honed in on?
- [03:33]
C
Hey, Nicole, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Well, here's what I know is true. Lunch is an unsung hero, because I think that wannabe habit changers need an easy way to start. So breakfast, Mornings come with a lot of time pressure. Dinner, that's a lot of peer pressure. It's just dinner is just a bigger deal. So you might be eating out or a lot of time, you're eating what other people are willing to eat. But lunch, Lunch is perfect. I mean, lunch is when I have a little more say over things, right? And it's a small and playful way to answer those two most basic lifestyle choices that we have to make every single day. What am I going to eat and how do I want to spend my time? So a little food and a little time, to me, that looks a lot like lunch.
- [04:27]
B
I love that. So let's start with those two questions and the what to eat and how we want to spend our time. Because you're right, we're maybe not asking that of ourselves as often as we should be or giving ourselves the time to answer it. A lot of times. I think we default in our days. So when it comes to lunch, how do we answer the question for ourself? What do we want to eat?
- [04:49]
C
So if you. If you think about this better lunch and how we want lunch to be. So let's say we have 30 minutes, right? Let's say we have. We start with 30 minutes for these two things for food and for time. And the two things together are really important because neither one should get shortchanged, right? It's not just about the food, but if you're thinking about 15 minutes of better food, what does that mean? And to me, it's anything you cook or assemble yourself, that's it. If you make it. It's better. It's better than anything frozen. It's anything better, it's better than anything fast. So if you want to level up beyond that, eat two vegetables at lunch. It's not just the baby carrots, it's carrots and something else. Or you can experiment with what I do, which is I do wheat once a day. And why only once? Because so much of the prepared convenience food is made with wheat. So it just nudges me toward a little more food diversity over the course of the day. So that's the food. And then if you have 30 minutes, then you spend 15 minutes just eating, chewing and paying attention to that food. And if you haven't really stopped for 15 minutes and thought about what you were eating and not do anything else, 15 minutes is kind of a long time. But that's really good for us both physically and psychologically to feel more satisfied with what we're eating.
- [06:24]
B
So this makes sense. And then there's the element of if I'm going to make it myself, there is an added time outside of the time we're spending in lunch, which is food prep. Any suggestions about how to tackle that in a way that serves us throughout our week?
- [06:44]
C
Well, that's another thing that I think really benefits from being a personal approach because some people really like to cook and aspire to do more cooking. So this is a reason to get you hooked back into that. But if you don't like to cook, there are lots of things that you can assemble and I have lots of tips for doing that on my website and in the book. But for example, hard boiled eggs don't take a lot of time to make, and you can make the whole week's worth at one time. Vegetable prep, a lot of grocery stores will do that for you if you don't want to cut up your vegetables yourself. But a lot of it is just the most simple, basic things. And to start with the kinds of food that you what is it that you like to eat, and then look for ways to make that kind of food preparation as easy for you as possible. Because I do think that the more personal you make, all of should be a treat, right? Your lunch, whatever it is that you're eating, it should be a treat for you. So whatever that is that you particularly like doing, if that's pizza, if that's something that's a favorite, or if there's a certain kind of thing, I think it's more important to focus on what it is that you would really look forward to in Finding a way to make that simple for some people, the block of time is only available on the weekends. Or I know people who, honestly, they don't like Monday anyway. So they do all of their prep work, grunt work on Mondays because that day is kind of shot anyway. And then you're good.
- [08:18]
B
Yeah. Okay. So I appreciate you saying that it is personal because my lens is. I don't love to cook and I'd probably do it on a Sunday prep for the week so that I wouldn't have to think about it. But obviously there's a ton of different preferences and approaches. And what I do like is I got the sense earlier when you were talking, I wrote it down, the word playful jumped into my head. And there's sort of like this sort of fun, not so serious approach to this whole concept, not just in what we eat, but in how we spend our time. So you'd mentioned eating for 15 minutes in a 30 minute block. What else might we want to be thinking about with our lunchtime from the lens of how we want to spend our time? What other things should we consider?
- [09:07]
C
So in this 30 minutes, we have our 15 minutes. We eat our food, we enjoy this food that we made for ourselves or assembled for ourselves. And then the other 15 minutes is time for you. And that's time that I use to pursue what I call a second place dream. I think that when we feel like we're coming up short at the end of what we think should feel like a good day, I think it's because we're shortchanging these second place dreams. So first place dreams, these are the big ones. This is loud stuff. They usually. These are dreams that come with status or sometimes money, our families, our careers, their PhDs, their Olympic medals, whatever big thing it is that you do. But these are the things. These are the things we tell people about. Second place dreams are different. They're quiet aspirations. These are the personally nourishing, quiet things like playing the guitar or learning Portuguese or something artistic or planning your new deck, learning to play mahjong.
- [10:18]
B
These are quiet right there. Yeah, that's what I would do.
- [10:21]
C
Yeah, they're quiet, impersonal things. Second place dreams often feel a little embarrassing when you say it out loud, but that's how you know it's a second place dream. These are the things we don't tell people about, but they're what make you you. And these are also the things that if they don't get done, probably the only person who's going to miss out is you. And why Are they second place? It's not because they're hard, because we do hard stuff, some because we're lazy. And it's not because they're inferior to first place dreams. I think they're essential actually to be the strong kinds of women we want to be. Why don't they make it to the top of the list? I think it's because someone told us once, you know, you, you can't sing, or there's no money in that, or we've convinced ourselves that what we want right now doesn't matter, or it can't happen right now, but it can happen and it can happen virtually every day. It can happen at lunch.
- [11:27]
B
Yeah. I think as you were talking about why we've sort of discounted these second place dreams or why we tend to set them aside or they go by the wayside. I think for me there is an element of. It's not what I put in air quotes, what I do. Right. It's like not what generates income or is a responsibility or is top of mind. But I think that somewhere we've lost the necessity of doing things for joy, doing things for passion, doing things for. Because they give us energy to do all those first place dreams. Said another way, I think we've sort of discounted them as opposed to what I think I hear you saying is prioritizing them because they will not only make us feel better and have a better lunch experience, but they'll actually elevate our first place dreams along the way.
- [12:25]
C
I think there's real potential for that because I think that part of the strength of being a professional woman, an active woman, is being able to say, this is important to me, my work and these first place dreams, but they're not who I am. There are these quirky, unusual things that I'm drawn to and they don't make any sense. We all have interests. Why are we curious about mahjong? I don't know. This is not a practical thing, but if you're curious about it, there's something to that. And I think that practicing feeding that kind of natural curiosity is really healthy. I mean, these are the kinds of things that would never discourage our child from pursuing these playful things. And we certainly wouldn't discourage our child from eating lunch in the middle of their busy day. So these are things we can do for ourselves too.
- [13:23]
B
Okay, so let's talk a little bit about, and I'm just going to call it logistics because I don't have a better word, but I know there's somebody listening in, because I know that's what I would be thinking going, okay, all well and good, but my to do list is never ending. I don't have 30 minutes. And even if I did, somebody would be calling, texting, knocking down my door. Somebody would be popping their head in the office going, do you have a minute? How do we logistically choose to. And then protect this time?
- [13:56]
C
I think that, you know, some of your listeners may not know this about me, but for the past 15 years, I have trained as an amateur boxer. I don't compete, but I've trained in a boxing gym. And you learn a lot about defense. Right. And you need to do this with kind of a playful attitude to say, what is it that you're going to defend? And 30 minutes in a typical day is not an unfair request to defend. So I think that, I think that kind of adopting that kind of attitude and even flexing that boundary muscle a little bit, I mean, lunch is really the perfect way to start doing this. Especially if you have a super full day or you feel like you haven't had 30 minutes in the middle of the day for a long time. I mean, this is not unrealistic and it's not culturally weird. Like, nobody's going to think it's weird if you have 30 minutes blocked off on your calendar. If you were doing that for some other kinds of reasons. I mean, this is culturally accepted. Here's this time. And to practice saying things, like not saying no to things, but saying, not now. Like, I can't do this now, but I can do it in an hour. It's a good muscle to flex. And those kinds of boundaries are not, are not unfair.
- [15:26]
B
Yeah. I'll also add one of my moves, and I, I, by the way, I'm working on this. I'm not quite where I want to be, but I'm working on it. One of my moves is to have my lunch in a completely different space. So I don't bring my lunch into my office. I obviously work from home, but if I worked in an office, I don't think I would have my lunch in the break room or in my office. I would take it and go somewhere where nobody can find me.
- [15:53]
C
Right.
- [15:54]
B
So that I don't even have to entertain the questions. And I, I'm so glad that you made the point that this is socially acceptable. Having a half an hour blocked out on your calendar and not being available to eat your food is socially acceptable. So, you know, we shouldn't really feel all that guilty about it or feel like we have to answer for ourselves or, you know, make excuses. But one of the tips that works for me is eliminating even the potential of it, like basically separating myself so that I don't fall in the trap of an email or. Because what happens is when I am working while I'm eating, I am completely disconnected from what I'm eating. Like, I don't even notice if I'm full. I don't even notice how fast I'm eating. I don't even notice what it tastes like or if I feel nourished. And more often than not, I actually end up overeating. Like, I feel like stuffed because I wasn't paying attention.
- [16:52]
C
Or you may finally be tasting something for the first time that you've thought was a great default meal and think, you know what? I really don't like eggs. I really don't like that thing. Well, you don't really notice, you know, you don't really know until you. Until you pay attention. And I love the way you talked about being in a separate space and that, that you didn't use any language like hiding, because it's not about hiding from them. To think about it more in terms of this is personal time. What you're looking for is privacy and a personal experience. And some environments are not going to allow you to have that. So you're finding one that will. And that's going to be different for everyone. It could be spending time outside, it could be another area of the building, whatever that is. But to really reframe it as, you know, not escape, but moving towards this thing that you really love.
- [17:49]
B
Yeah. So I'm going to ask a few follow up questions and it might seem like I'm digging into the logistics side of this, but I know you said this before we hit record, and I'm feeling this too is like, we want this to be something that sticks. Right. We want this to be something that people will actually follow through on and do something about. So do you recommend that we schedule lunch in our calendar so it doesn't get filled or we don't have holes? Do we prioritize this in that way where it's blocked out and people know about it?
- [18:23]
C
I think that if lunch is not on your workday calendar that you should add it to your calendar right now. Nicole and I will wait. We'll wait.
- [18:34]
B
I'm literally doing it right now because I don't have lunch. And I mean, I eat lunch, but not having it on my calendar is really quite dumb.
- [18:41]
C
And when you're putting it on your Calendar listeners know that it can change. I mean, whatever you, whatever, you know, plan it out for the next three weeks, put it on the calendar, it can move. I mean, that's again, the other part of crafting this into a personal experience is that you don't know what a day is going to bring. The day is seldom going to play out the way you think it is. But this is also another tool to remind you that even if it doesn't play out the way you expected it to, it can still play out the way in a way that's good for you. This can flex once it's on the calendar, but it's also psychologically important because this midday break, this is just as important as a meeting with a client. Right. Or your kid's dentist appointment. You need to defend this time. Like, missing out on this experience is not okay. It's time to stop missing out.
- [19:41]
B
Yeah. So I love that you said that there's some flexibility in it, but what I find when I have something on my calendar is if something else comes up or I need to make an adjustment, I'm less likely, like, what I'll do is I'll reschedule it. So, for example, if my break is 11:30 to 12 or whatever and I have a podcast guest that wants to do a recording at 11:30, then I have the choice to move my lunch before or after that slot, but it's there. And so it's a conscious like, oh, I got to move that around. Whereas when it's not on my calendar, it's so easy to forget or to not even have or create the time. And it sends the unconscious message that this isn't important. Also, logistically, Cheryl, I'm interested your thoughts on this because when I have something on my calendar that's new, sometimes I'm going to put in air quotes, forget what to do with it. And so in the description of my lunch slot, I'm putting a few of these second place dream ideas in there. So when I sit down for my first scheduled lunch, it's like, yes, I know to eat, but like, what else am I doing with this time? You know, maybe it is doing an online mahjong course, or maybe it's doing a meditation or I've been wanting, I have a red light therapy thing and I do it like once a week or twice a week, but I've been wanting to do it more. So maybe I just lay down with my, you know, there's just things that we can do, but if we're not used to It. I think sometimes the what we want doesn't pop into our head in the moment. And so kind of preparing for it and giving yourself some ideas, at least that's helpful for me. Thoughts?
- [21:29]
C
I think that's a great idea. And I think that for people who have not had much personal space for themselves for a while and that that muscle is pretty, pretty weak, this is also time that you can use just to explore what those things might be, to start generating some ideas and having some space. And, you know, and that's the thing that the food and the time part, it really does work together, because if you've had that 15 minutes of eating, not just fast food, like some kind of better food, you have that 15 minutes, you've slowed down, now you're in a better place to make the kind of choices and to do the kind of creative or brainstorming activities that you might want to do. To say, what are those things that I want to do? I don't even remember. It's been so long since I've done anything other than what was either demanded of me at work or from other aspects of my life. But to really use that time to say, you know, what do I want from me? And even if that is just 15 minutes of thought and not knowing, that's okay because it's still an investment in you. It's also good practice for us to stop obsessing over our bodies, that there are a lot of times when, you know, we're obsessing over what we should eat. And maybe it's because we think we need to weigh a certain amount or we think we need to look a certain way. And, you know, as. As a. As a boxer, what, What I eat matters. But it doesn't. It's not everything. The reason I'm eating the way I'm eating is because I need my body to do a thing, right? So what is it with your body that you want to do that you can't do because you haven't lost the last six pounds? You know, if you. If you really want to play that cello, you can do that without eating any kind of prescribed diet. And I bet you could do it right now, no matter what the scale says. So to think more about what is it you want to do? What experiences do you want to have in this body and thinking about how do you want to treat that body so that you can do that thing? And holistically, the other things kind of come together. But this is a really. Lunch is really a great place to start.
- [23:48]
B
Amen I think really, it's almost embarrassing how much reframing and how much work that it takes to think about food or lunch or meals from a place of what it does for our body and what matters most to us and what we want to do, what it does for our energy, how it makes us feel. Like, what if you just made and ate your lunch and then asked yourself, how do I feel? Do I feel nourished and satisfied? Do I feel my energy kicking up? Do I feel something not sit well with me? Am I realizing that, hey, cauliflower doesn't do very well in my body or whatever it is? Right? Like, that's true for me, by the way, as opposed to associating our meals always with our looks. I'm sorry. Done and tired and over it. And I'm so grateful that this is not at all part of the box lunch lifestyle. So thank you for that. Okay, friends, go to boxlunchlifestyle.com and you can download the free Better Lunch Blueprint from Cheryl for free again. And you can also go get your hands on the book again. It is called the Box Lunch Lifestyle and it's available on Amazon or go to your local bookstore. Let's keep them in business, Cheryl. Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is great conversation.
- [25:11]
C
Thank you, Nicole.
- [25:13]
B
All right, friend, let's agree to stop treating lunch like a chore and our needs like an inconvenience. Enough with the mindless snacking, the calorie counting guilt trips, or the sad desk lunches you barely remember eating. How about we feed ourselves with something that actually fuels us, Whether that be food or a second place dream, or both. Not just whatever's closest to the office or easiest to unwrap. Let's make lunch a part of our day that honors our energy, supports our focus, and reminds us that we are more than just machines. Feed yourself, fuel yourself. And yes, take the break you so desperately need. Because taking the time to reclaim your energy for what matters most, well, that is woman's work.