Jenny Wood (4:10)

Nicole, it's a pleasure to be here. The most effective tools for asking what you want are, first of all, recognizing that you are not always going to get it right. I want to emphasize that there is a mindset shift that needs to happen first that you will fail sometimes, you will fail sometimes, and that is okay. The mindset shift is a critical first step. And then after you have that mindset shift, a great tool to use is something I call Play to win. W I n n what I need now. Because with so much change and no matter what company you're in, there's a good chance that you've had a reorg this year. Or maybe your company is even doing layoffs, or maybe you're excited to switch to a new role. Playing to win means understanding the changing dynamics and asking for what you want and not being shy. So let's say, for example, your company did layoffs and you are all of a sudden doing the role of three people. Your responsibilities have tripled, but you have no additional income, you haven't gotten a raise you haven't gotten a promotion, you have the same title. Playing to win is putting together a couple slides and going to your boss or your boss's boss and asking for a career development conversation, helping them see the value that you're driving for the company and asking for that to be compensated in a fair way. There's a story from this session singer, Claire Tory, session singer, someone who's just hired as part of, not part of the band, but this was Pink Floyd's session singer, just this kind of freelance singer who came in and she ended up singing these legendary vocals on this Pink Floyd song. And that she collected like her 30 pound fee, right, and went home like, like Peanuts. And then that album became like multi platinum. And Tori was like, wait a second, this is. This does not seem appropriate. What I want, what I need is to be fairly compensated for what created an incredible song for Pink Floyd. And so she went back to them and she said, I want a songwriting credit. And she just, she had just improvised these, like, in just vocals, no words improvised, but it's really what made the song. And she went back to them, she said, I want a songwriting credit and I want X amount of money. And she sued them. And they were smart to think, well, what do I need now as Pink Floyd? And the smart move there was to settle out of court for an undisclosed sum of money that I'm guessing was pretty significant. So when the circumstances change, right, in her cases, she did this, this song and it ended up going multi platinum. In her case, once she realized that her circumstances has had changed and she realized what I need now, more money and a credit. And so when your circumstances change, whether it's a reorg or a layoff or some headwind, it takes courage to ask for what you want, but that's how you get it.

Nicole Kahlil (7:09)

Yeah, it's really interesting. It's almost, I don't know, counterintuitive or a paradox or something like that. This idea that the way that you get what you want is a shift in mindset of going into it, knowing that there is the possibility you won't get it right. It's like this law of detachment type thing where it's like you have to sort of disconnect from the idea that it's all going to go smoothly, that you're going to get what you want easily or right away. I think of it as like wading into the muck because everything we want lives on the other side of it. And that's the part that I think is really hard for Us to wrap our head around this sort of counterintuitive thing that we have to, in order to get what we want, we have to be willing to let go of the idea that we're going to get it. Isn't that weird?

Jenny Wood (7:58)

Yeah. And I also personally struggle living in the muck. So like you're going into the muck. But to me it's solve, it's creating clarity through the muck. Definitive information. And maybe this is just the economics major, the analyst in me. I was in an operations role for nearly 18 years at Google. To me, maybe it's just that analytical left brained tendency I have, which is I just want an answer even if the answer is no. So there's almost to me, calmness in the definitive. And then going into the mug is what allows me to get to that place of calm with a clear yes or a clear no. Like I really, I have, I'd say anxiety with a cat with a lowercase A. Really where I struggle is in the indecision, in the second guessing and the living in fear and the living in uncertainty. Living, you know, with the idea of failure. But then once I can get to that place and it's like, okay, I failed. That almost gives me unusual calm.

Nicole Kahlil (8:52)

Yeah.

Jenny Wood (8:52)

Which might be unique.

Nicole Kahlil (8:54)

I think it's unique. But I also think it's something that we hear about a lot, especially in business or sales. You know, I think about it in sales. You know, there was an expression that we used to say all the time, which is no is my second favorite answer. Obviously I want the yes, but no is my second favorite answer because it's the maybes that kill you. Right. It's like the indecisiveness. The person who's stringing you on like that stuff will make you lose it altogether. Whereas as you said, the nos, at least you have a definitive answer. And part of, I believe part of achieving what you want or success in any sense of the word is being willing to collect no's. You've got to collect a bunch of no's to get to the yeses. But I'm with you. I, I just want an answer like the answer that's the maybes and the indecisiveness that I think kills us the most.

Jenny Wood (9:45)

Yeah, I, I understand.

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Nicole Kahlil (9:47)

Okay. I know in doing my research that you identify nine power traits. I think some of them might be surprising, but nine power traits that help us get what we want. Can you dive into what the nine are and maybe let's pick a few and talk a Little bit about that.

Jenny Wood (10:04)

Yeah. So the nine traits are weird, selfish, shameless, nosy, obsessed, Manipulative. That's a spicy one. Brutal, reckless, and bossy. And these traits all, at first glance, raise eyebrows, right? But I feel that they create the bars of an invisible cage that keeps you small. And for all of you listening, I want you to stop playing small and start playing smart. And if used in a sane and savvy way, these can supercharge your success, they can supercharge your opportunities, they can supercharge your future. And of course, they're all. It's reclaimed language, right? It's. We don't want. I don't actually want people to be manipulative with the intention of harming yourself or others. But I do want you to build influence through empathy and craft lasting relationships. So we can definitely dive into manipulative. I think that's probably the edgiest one. And as I wrote this book, I thought I might get canceled the day this book comes out. But maybe not. And so far, people are responding really well. Well to them or reckless. Right. Reckless is simply air on the side of action and take healthy risks. Brutal is drawing lines and sticking to them and embracing the power of no being brutal about your calendar and recognizing that desire to people, please, which plagues so, so many of us. Selfish is be your own champion, right? And that's, I think, a helpful one for us to keep in mind every day. The example I gave with Claire Tori from Pink Floyd, like she was being selfish, right? She was saying, hey, I need to stand up for what I need. I need to be my own champion. Pink Floyd's not going to come running to me being like, you know, we thought about this more, and since this has gone multi platinum, you probably deserve more than 30 pounds for this, for this song that's just become a global phenomenon. But she had to stand up for herself and be a little bit selfish. Or this could be as simple as, yes, it's 2:50 and my kids are getting out of school, but I want to go to that yoga class because I am not going to be able to be the kind of mom I want to be. And during dinner time and bedtime tonight, if I don't go, take 55 minutes for myself and regroup. So that can be selfish also. And that is not just okay, it's smart.

Nicole Kahlil (12:19)

Yeah. Well, I am a big fan of reclaiming and reframing words, especially words that have been misused and misinterpreted for so long. And what I love about your nine Power traits is all of them are words that I think, especially as women, we've sort of been taught to avoid. And, you know, I, I, I love this idea of recapturing them, reframing them in a way that works and helps us get what we want. So you're right. Manipulative can be a really hard one. It's interesting, though, that, that you honed in on that one, because I use that a lot, because if you look at the definition, there's at least one version of the word manipulate, or one definition of the word manipulate that is, I think of it as the artist's way. Right. The artist manipulates clay or paint or whatever to create this beautiful thing. It's not the word in and of itself is not necessarily negative. So let's dive into that a little bit more. You gave a quick example there. But what are some of the ways that we can use manipulation as a power tool and a, a positive tool to get what we want?

Jenny Wood (13:31)

Yeah. So at the end of the day, we're all manipulating all day long. Manipulating, to me, is just the courage to seek influence over others. And, you know, when we open our mouths, we oftentimes want something to happen. Right. You're opening your mouth, and you hope that the words that come out encourage your listeners to gain something from the episode or maybe tell a friend about the episode. I'm talking also hoping to help people, but also hoping that people will go check out the book. Right. Like, everyone's got an agenda, and it's okay to have an agenda. You can also be a good person and build meaningful relationships. Or one example of an agenda I had where I was being a little crafty. Right. If we're talking artistry, I was being a bit of an artist. Is when I was first starting out writing this book, I was going to Austin for work, travel. And Vanessa Van Edwards, who's just this amazing author that I am so impressed by, she lived in Austin. And I said, hey, Vanessa, it'd be so great. We'd never met, but someone had connected us. It'd be so great to meet up for coffee when I'm in Austin. And she said, um, oh, my gosh. I, I told her the date I was gonna be there. She's like, oh, such a bummer. I'm out of town. Those exact same dates. I happen to be leaving the day that you come in. And I said, well, what time does your flight leave? Maybe we could meet up at the airport for coffee. And she said, you know, I get in at 3, and I was like, perfect, sorry, I'm, I'm leaving, I'm departing at three And I was like, perfect. I land at one, that is perfect time to grab coffee. But I wasn't landing at 1, I was landing at 4 or 5pm so when I said that, like, sure, a white lie, liar, liar, pants on fire. But for 60 bucks, I changed my flight. She didn't have to be the wiser. I didn't have to include her in the how the sausage was being made on the back end. I didn't want her to feel extra, you know, burden if she had to twist her flight or something, that I'd gone through all this trouble. So did I manipulate that situation to make it a very smooth way to meet her and build that relationship and now we're friends in an easy, breezy way.

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Jenny Wood (15:21)

And there's no harm in that. But I think the vast majority of people would not have changed their flight, would not have manipulated that situation in a way that would ultimately be productive for them, their future and their future opportunities and relationships.

Nicole Kahlil (15:34)

So all good examples, that to me is just like you said, sane and savvy. Right. If I have this opportunity and there are small tweaks that I can make to have it happen, somebody else doesn't need to know all the details. You just make it work. Right. Like you manipulate the circumstances so that it works out for as a win win for everybody involved.

Jenny Wood (15:55)

Totally. And it was a win win. And we can also talk about a specific tool that is useful at work. There's a tool I call Fluent in Influence, which is really about 360 degree management. You've heard of managing up, and this is really beyond managing up to your boss. This is what I call managing higher, managing diagonally and managing outside. So managing higher is when was the last time you met with your boss's boss?

Nicole Kahlil (16:19)

Right.

Jenny Wood (16:19)

If you work at a big corporation, chances are that's encouraged in this day and age. Or keep your manager in the loop. But every six months, set up 30 minutes with your boss's boss and let them know what you're working on. Or get nosy.

Nicole Kahlil (16:30)

Right.

Jenny Wood (16:30)

That's another power trait. And ask them, you know, what are their most important priorities and how you could maybe help add talent to them. Right. What and how questions are always great. Best kind of nosy is a what and how question. So that's manage higher. Manage diagonally is build a relationship with your boss's peers. Right. So if you think about an org chart, up above you is your boss and then to the right or left are their peers, so that's managed diagonally. Find an opportunity to present in a leads meeting where you'll be able to expose your project for, you know, some amount of time to your boss's peers and ask for feedback. And then rather than when promotion time comes around, you're scrambling trying to make sure everybody knows your name. Because promotions at big companies are or medium companies are often decided by committee, not unilaterally. Everybody knows what you're up to and manage outside is it's never a bad idea to build relationships outside your company, even if you are the happiest camper ever. And this is frankly something I never did in 18 years. I had this awesome boss and he said you should have at least one or two meetings with somebody outside the organization. Sorry, outside of your company, outside of Google. It's just good to pressure test. Do you still want to be a Google? What's going on outside? What kind of comp might be available outside? Does that make you psyched to still be at Google or does that make you think, huh? I've been here a long time and I've never thought about what the outside world looks like, which can be very common when you get insularly focused in your current company. So that's manage higher, manage diagonally, and manage outside. It's how you become fluent in influence. And I consider all of this healthy manipulation.

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Nicole Kahlil (19:43)

Okay, so let's talk about weird. I just love that one. Yeah, it reminds me we had a guest on a few months back, maybe about a year ago actually now on her book is called Good Awkward and it's this idea of, you know, being fully and totally authentically you, but also the power of the awkward moments and the things that we do that are a little quirky and all of that. So I don't know if that ties into weird, but what do you see as a power trait behind weird?

Jenny Wood (20:12)

Yeah, so weird is win as you or lose as who? Nicole? Because we're just trying to follow along and be like everybody else and sit quietly and blending in with with the masses. You're just not going to get noticed. So weird could be as simple as playing it hot. And playing it hot is sitting in the front row in your VP's, you know, 200 person town hall when your company has that off site, or diplomatically disagreeing with your boss. Or it could also be putting a document together and putting your picture and your name at the top or your name and your title so that if that document gets floated around the company, people know where to find you. It's. It's making your mark. It's having your voice heard. It's not just nodding along. It's being the first to ask a question if something comes to you and not thinking, oh, nobody would really think this is a good question. Right? It's just, it's being bold. Being weird is about being bold. And being weird isn't like saying something outlandish. Okay, so here can I I also talk about trait traps with all of these. These traits and trait traps are when you take this, the trait too far. So you know, for example, obsessed is push, perform, persist. It's not about grinding yourself into a pulp and burning out. So a trait trap in Weird is be your best self. Like be yourself, but be Your best self. So let's, let's roll it back to seventh grade, Jenny. And I was new to the school. First day of school, my teacher Ms. Howard, said, does anybody have any questions? The, like, first period language arts, first day of seventh grade. And I raised my hand, desperate for a laugh, completely insecure. And the question I asked in front of my entire 30 something person class was, I have a question, Ms. Howard. Are you a virgin? That is not the word.

Nicole Kahlil (22:00)

Yeah, that's the word we're looking for.

Jenny Wood (22:02)

Yeah, not the word we're looking for. Not the word we're looking for. At work, I was mortified. Nobody laughed. We're not going for shock factor. Like, I was trying to and failed to that day. Sometimes it's just being memorably you. So one of the best resumes I ever got was from this person named Carly. And if the 50 resumes in my stack, hers really stood out because she had this line at the bottom that said, in constant pursuit of the perfect oatmeal raisin cookie recipe. And within that one sentence, she told me that she was weird, right? Like, she was authentically being her. She was obsessed, right? She, like, wanted to find the best. She was nosy. She was curious about, like, which, which one this would be. Um, and she was just like, revealing an authentic piece of her. And then, of course, when I interviewed her, and she had all the skills, but so did all the other people I was interviewing. But then the personality, like that pop of color matched when she interviewed with me, the person on the resume. So, you know, it's just, how do you stand out in a way that sets you apart?

Nicole Kahlil (23:03)

I love the idea of this trait trap. Right. Because there is a. You can take it too far when you're doing it just for the sake of doing it or, you know, trying to push the envelope. I often think of it as bumper bowling. Right. Like, there are guardrails on either side. Right. You can't be too far this way or not enough this way. But there's a lot of room to play in between. But the trait trap makes sure you don't end up in the gutter.

Jenny Wood (23:25)

Yeah. By the way, we decided to call these trait traps. At the end, they were called guardrails for about two years. Oh, my gosh.

Nicole Kahlil (23:30)

How fun. Okay. Okay, good. My next question is about this idea, this concept of getting what we want. I sometimes wonder if the reason we feel like we don't get what we want or we don't have what we want is because we've been socialized and sort of conditioned to always want more. Right? And so where does celebration or appreciation come into play when it comes to getting what you want? So let me give an example. Let's say I want to accomplish this big thing. There are lots of steps between where I am and accomplishing the big thing. And I've found from my experience that it's important to acknowledge, appreciate and celebrate the little milestone moments along the way. Because if you don't, if you're always on to the next and never, it's like you never actually get the satisfaction or the feeling of getting what you want, even when you get it. Am I making any sense and what are your thoughts on this?

Jenny Wood (24:30)

You are making so much sense. And this, this plagues me. Like this is, this is really hard for me because I am a high achiever. I am a go getter. I am type A, I am a let's do it. Nothing is too big. Let's make those impossible dreams likely. But then being a person like that, and my guess is that with your success, you already articulated it, you feel this also sometimes it is, this is a trade trap. I mean, this is, this is what I would call is the juice worth the squeeze. And I talk about this research by Swarthmore professor Barry Schwartz. And by the way, if you have never seen his TED Talk, the Paradox of Choice, I think it is the best 17, 18 minute TED talk out there. So he has this other research about maximizers and satisficers. Maximizers want more, more, more and will put in every ounce of effort to achieve that. That thing satisfies tend to be, you know, kind of like, okay, good enough. And the research suggests that while maximizers, maximizers get slightly more of what they want in life, they are less happy. And so satisficers get a slightly less optimized outcome. So maybe slightly less of what they want to get in life, but they are happier. And so, you know, you always have to think about that trade off of where are you on that spectrum? Like, I'm an absolute maximizer and I need to remind myself to rein it in and to think about what can I satisfy today, right? Not every project has to be a 10 out of 10. In fact, some projects should be a 3 out of 10 because otherwise I'm not prioritizing appropriately and I just have to be a satisficer on certain projects.

Nicole Kahlil (26:14)

So then my follow up question is sort of this, okay, knowing what you want and having clarity around that, I think is important to getting what you want, right? You have to know what it is that you're trying to accomplish, but how important is it to know why you want it? And the reason I ask is that sometimes I've found myself wanting things or striving for things because I see other people doing them or I thought I was and I put in air quotes supposed to. Or I got caught up in somebody else's thoughts or opinions or journey. And I guess my question is, how important is it when we think about what it is that we want for us to do some reflection and thinking about why it is that we want it or what the experience is that we're looking for or how badly we really want it, how important is that part?

Jenny Wood (27:10)

It's really important. And this also falls into. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Right? Because no professional effort is worth depleting your physical or your mental reserve. So don't proceed unless you're confident that it deserves your bandwidth and that you have the bandwidth to spare. Right? So I am caught up in one right now. I so badly, deeply want this book to hit the New York Times bestseller list. And Nicole, it's. It's kind of a shitty goal, okay? Like, I know you've got the explicit rating on your podcast, so I'm going to say it's a shitty goal and.

Nicole Kahlil (27:44)

It'S a total mind fuck.

Jenny Wood (27:45)

It's a total mind. It is a total mind fucked. It's fuck. It's an editorialized list and there's not a ton of rhyme or reason for, you know, why you do or do not get on. And, and the volume of US hardcover books you have to sell to get on it is, is just like gargantuan and potentially not even realistic for me as a debut author with some, you know, 50, 000 person newsletter list. 87, 000 people on LinkedIn, but like, we're, we're talking. There's like people with millions and millions of followers who are more likely to get it. So I'm really like pushing a giant boulder up a very, very steep hill and I'm always asking myself, like, why do I want this? And I, it is, it's really two parts. It is part ego. It would feel really good. And I recognize that. Like, yeah, I want to be a New York Times bestseller. And there's nothing else for the ego part. There's nothing else behind it for me. Like, it's just for that side of it. It's just, I want it. It's the. I love superlatives. I want to be the best and like, this might make me sound, you know, selfish or shameless or. Right. Or obsessed or weird, but.

Nicole Kahlil (28:48)

Or honest.

Jenny Wood (28:49)

Honest. Right. Like, I just want it. And. And that's. The ego part is like, yeah, I would love to have that label. Think about the labels for all of you listening, like the label, the Ph.D. or the, you know, or the MBA or the VP or the promotion or whatever level it is that you're trying to get to whatever number it is that you want to earn Right. Each year, sometimes you just want it. And by the way, I think sometimes that's okay. It's just being honest with yourself. And then for me, aside from the ego, there's the business side of it. There's a very practical application where if I do hit the New York Times, I can charge, you know, X thousands of dollars more per speaking gig. And that means that now that I've left Google to basically speak and do corporate training and workshops full time, which requires a lot of being on a plane. It means that rather than as the breadwinner to pay the mortgage and all of our family's expenses, I need to, you know, do 40% fewer trips on a plane each year to make the money my family needs to make to live. Because a New York Times bestselling author would command a higher speaking fee or consulting fee. And that is a very practical application that is better for my kids. My. My son is 9. My daughter is 7. They have a lot of needs of mommy right now. And so there's a practical application as well. So to me, it's part ego and part business sense. And what I have to constantly do is ask myself, which one is taking over? Does this feel more ego today, or does it feel more practical today, Jenny? And interrogate. Interrogate those theories. Right? Like, well, and I can get real caught up in my story, Nicole. Real cut in my story. Well, the only way that I could be on a plane 40% less of the time is if I hit the New York Times. Well, then I talked to amazing mentors like Kim Scott, who wrote Radical Candor. And she's like, jenny, you can have a thriving business as an author, speaker, consultant, trainer without ever getting remotely close to the New York Times. And she encourages me that I will probably be that anyway, because I've got a lot of drive and I've got a good book. I really do believe in this book. I'm so proud of it. And so then you have to interrogate that story that you're telling yourself to see is it true, is it useful, is it Productive, but it's tricky and I. Hold on. I have a. I have a little sticky note on my monitor that says I'm holding the New York Times lightly, meaning, sure, I can want it, because I can't not want it. I can't change who I am. I can't change how my brain is wired, but I can hold it lightly. Like holding a pine cone in your hand and not letting it stick you with this. The pricklies. Right? Just like holding it lightly.

Nicole Kahlil (31:14)

Yes. I love that concept of holding it lightly. My last question is around the title of your book. So obviously our episode is about how to get what you want, which is the subtitle of your book, but your title title is Wild Courage. What does Wild courage mean? And why is it so important to getting what we want?

Jenny Wood (31:35)

Yeah, Wild Courage is a believing that you deserve something. Right? This even goes back to your last question is like, sometimes it's okay to just say, like, I. It's okay to want something, right? Even if especially for women who oftentimes don't see them in the leadership position or oftentimes don't see them as like, if you look at the New York times bestsellers every 10 each week, like, it's not a ton of women on there, and it's okay to want to get there. So Wildcurge is saying, yes, I deserve this. Yes, I can achieve this. Wild Courage is asking to lead the project when you're not necessarily the leader on. On the team. Mild Courage is asking to help out with the project even if you're not part of the team. So Wild Courage is taking it that next step. And the wild piece is to me is like, these words are kind of wild, manipulative, selfish, shameless, reckless. Like, those words all, to me instill a bit of a, wow, this feels uncomfortable. This feels a little bit wild. And the Courage piece is that it does take confidence. It does take what I would call a little healthy chutzpah. It does take the ability to settle into your own abilities and to believe deeply in yourself and what you are able to accomplish if you put your mind to it and get over that fear of people pleasing and fear of failure and fear of uncertainty. So that, to me is Wild Courage.

Nicole Kahlil (33:02)

Yeah. All right. Well, to help you get what you want and also to help Jenny get what she wants, go and get the book Wild Courage. You can order it on Amazon or anywhere you buy books. Let's keep those local bookstores in business. So start there. Jenny, thank you so much for being a guest and also I forgot to mention the website is it's jennywood.com and there are a handful of free downloadable resources as well as more information on the book on her website. Jenny, thank you so much for being our guest and for helping us get what we want.

Jenny Wood (33:34)

Thanks so much, Nicole. And thank you to all of you listening. Thank you for giving us an opportunity to contribute to your goals.

Nicole Kahlil (33:40)

Absolutely. All right, here's the thing about going after what you want. It is not for the faint of heart. It's not easy. It's not always pretty. And it's not guaranteed to work the first or even 10th time that you try. So get clear on what it is that you want and honest about why you want it. Take the risk. Embrace the messy, the scary, and the uncertain. And remember, even when the path is hard, even when others don't get it, and even when you doubt yourself, it's not mild courage. It's wild courage that changes lives, especially your own. So here is your invitation. Not permission, because you don't need that from me or anyone else, but your invitation to step up and step out. Let go of the overthinking and stop listening to the voices that say that you can't say yes to the big things that matter and no to the small things that don't. Celebrate your wins. Learn from your mistakes. And above all, keep going one foot in front of the other toward what you want most. Because getting what you want, well, that is absolutely woman's work.

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