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How To Play: Shift Your Thinking, Inspire Connection & Spark Creativity with Cas Holman | 355 - This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil | Wave AI Podcast Notes

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How To Play: Shift Your Thinking, Inspire Connection & Spark Creativity with Cas Holman | 355

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil

Wed Oct 22 2025

Designer Cas Holman shows us why play isn’t just child’s stuff — it’s a radical act of creativity, leadership, and problem-solving. Get ready to unlearn rules and rediscover possibility.

Summary

Podcast Summary: This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil

Episode 355: How To Play: Shift Your Thinking, Inspire Connection & Spark Creativity with Cas Holman
Air date: October 22, 2025
Host: Nicole Kalil
Guest: Cas Holman, Founder/Chief Designer, Will Rise; former Professor at RISD; author of Playful

Overview

This episode delves into the transformative power of play—especially for adults. Host Nicole Kalil and renowned designer Cas Holman bust the myth that play is reserved for childhood, unpacking why reconnecting with play sparks creativity, deepens human connection, and brings much-needed relief from the grind of adulting. They discuss how to cultivate playfulness in daily life, overcome the guilt and self-judgment that keep us from it, and invite others into a more playful existence.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Importance of Adult Play (04:23–05:18)

Nicole reflects on approaching her milestone 50th birthday, feeling she’s missed out on fun by swapping her “playful self” for a “productive self.”
The danger of losing play: Nicole and Cas agree that distancing from play as adults not only lessens joy but also restricts creativity, emotional wellbeing, and meaningful connection.

"When we disconnect from play, we're not just missing out on fun. We're cutting ourselves off from joy, creativity, connection, and some of the best parts of being human." — Nicole (04:10)

2. What Adult Play Really Means (05:18–08:41)

Cas defines play for adults: Beyond sports and games, “free play” is open-ended, intuitive, done for its own sake—not productivity or outcomes.
Structured vs. free play: Free play reawakens curiosity and intrinsic motivation, reminding us of value beyond achievement.

"We need to be able to play not because it's good for you... It's not about being good at it, but about letting yourself do it." — Cas (08:10)

3. The Value and Science of Play (09:34–12:26)

Scientific benefits: Cas references research by Lydia Denworth and Stuart Brown—playing improves mental, physical, and social health; play deprivation is harmful.
Play as self-discovery: Engaging in meditative play (like puzzles or bird-watching) reattunes us to our needs, instincts, and creativity.
Everyday play: Not all play is obvious—a lot of adult play happens in daily actions like people-watching or tinkering.

4. Overcoming Guilt and Competitiveness (12:26–16:24)

Why we struggle: Nicole discusses guilt and the feeling that play isn’t a “good use of time.” Cas explains how school and culture condition us to equate worth to success and achievement.
Three principles to reclaim playfulness:
1. Reframe success: Is the goal to win, or to share joy and laughter?
2. Release judgment: Most judgment is internal—let go of being “bad” at play.
3. Embrace possibility: Stay curious; be open to where play leads you.

"You can be a bad dancer and keep dancing... It's about the play." — Cas (15:04)

5. Practical Tips and Play Types (20:04–27:19)

Embrace possibility: Cas’s anecdote about a hike turning into a moss-hunting adventure illustrates how letting go of rigid goals creates unexpected joy.
Adult play types, per Cas’s research:
- Meditative play: Slow, focused, calming (e.g., puzzles, crafting).
- Attention play: Observing the world (bird-watching, people-watching).
- Misbehavior play: Pushing boundaries, giggles, playful rebellion (e.g., peeking in a medicine cabinet, dressing up, laughing somewhere you “shouldn’t”).
- Embodied play: Movement, dance, impromptu actions.
- Tinkering: Rearranging, experimenting, “messing with things.”

"Tinkering is a very, very common way that adults play, and there's something there that we need, but we often don't let ourselves dive in." — Cas (22:45)

6. Social Play & Inviting Others In (29:01–31:52)

Play as vulnerability and connection: It’s brave to invite play into friendships; open honesty is key to inviting others to join.
Reassurance: Most people are ready to connect through play—they just need permission or an invitation.

"To play is to be vulnerable. Which is why it's hard and also why it is so profoundly important to us." — Cas (29:38)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“Just playing is already misbehaving in a way that I think requires that we be brave...” — Cas (28:51)
“The older I get, the less I care. And it is freedom.” — Nicole (19:50)
“Fun isn’t frivolous, joy isn’t optional, and reclaiming our playful selves, that is woman’s work.” — Nicole (end reflection, 32:38)

Timestamps for Important Segments

00:53–04:23 – Nicole’s personal reflection on regret, seriousness, and the loss of play
05:18–08:41 – Cas Holman’s definition and philosophy of adult play
09:34–12:26 – The science-backed benefits of play and types of play adults already do
13:18–16:24 – Breaking free from achievement/guilt mentality; reframing success and releasing judgment
20:04–21:50 – Embracing possibility: anecdote about allowing play to redirect experiences
23:42–27:19 – Rundown of different “adult play types” and their importance
29:01–31:52 – How to invite friends/family to be more playful and vulnerable

Actionable Takeaways

Start where you are: Recognize and value the play already present in your life.
Challenge “productivity guilt”: Re-think success as creating joy, not outcomes.
Let yourself play badly: The goal is process, not performance—release the need to be good.
Invite others intentionally: Openly acknowledge your desire for more play and extend a genuine invitation.
Small acts count: Movement, daydreaming, tinkering, or misbehaving in light ways all reawaken play.

Resources

Cas Holman’s book: Playful
Cas’s website: cassholman.com
Cas on Instagram
For in-depth science on play: Stuart Brown, Lydia Denworth
Support local bookstores when purchasing Playful

This episode is a powerful invitation to reconnect with curiosity, possibility, and joy through play. It’s a practical and soulful reminder that “woman’s work” is ultimately being true to ourselves—including the parts that dance, tinker, misbehave, and laugh until it hurts.

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Transcript

A (0:00)

I don't know about you, but the women in my life We've got questions about our hormones, mood swings out of nowhere, weight gain that makes no sense, a sex drive that went MIA or really missing without action, wide awake at 3am, exhausted all day, and we refuse to accept that not feeling like yourself is just part of getting older. And yet no one knows where to actually get help. Enter hers. The process is simple and doesn't involve long waits or being dismissed in a cold exam room. You can start today by completing a medical intake online and a licensed provider trained in women's health will review your information and create your personalized treatment plan. You'll also get the HERS app and unlimited messaging with their care team. It should be simpler to access healthcare built around you and your unique needs. Whether you want to manage your perimenopause or menopause symptoms, lose weight, grow thicker, fuller hair, or find relief for anxiety, hers has women covered. Visit f o R-H-E-R s.com womanswork to get a personalized perimenopause treatment plan that's right for you. That's F o r h e-r s.com womanswork not available in all 50 states. Perimenopause and menopause by hers includes hormonal health support, educational resources, digital tools and prescription options if appropriate. Hormone replacement therapies are not FDA approved for the treatment of perimenopause but may be prescribed off label for perimenopausal symptoms at a provider discretion. See website for full details, important safety information and restrictions. This episode is brought to you by Marshalls, where you never have to compromise between quality and price. The buyers of Marshalls hustle hard working to bring you great deals on brand name and designer pieces because Marshalls believes everyone deserves access to the good stuff. Visit a Marshalls store near you or shop online@marshalls.com w I am Nicole Khalil, your host of the this Is Woman's Work podcast, and I'm about a half a year away from a big time birthday. I'll be turning 50 and one of the things big birthdays and milestones often do is they have us reflect. It's an opportunity to look back on our lives and the lives that we've lived so far and decide what we want to carry forward and what we're finally ready to leave behind. And friend. I don't have a lot of regrets. That doesn't mean I've done things perfectly or avoided mistakes. I have had far more than my fair share. And some of them have been doozies. But with the benefit of hindsight, I can see how they shaped the person that I am and the life that I've built. I can really only come up with two big regrets. The first is not living or studying abroad. And the other. I wish I'd played more, had fun more as an adult. The problem is, after decades of taking both myself and life far too seriously, I'm not even sure I know where to start. Because somewhere between learning to pay bills, building a career, managing relationships, and trying to keep, like 1,000 balls in the air, I traded in my playful self for my productive self. I told myself that it was part of growing up. I told myself that I was being responsible. But really, I just forgot the version of me who knew how to play. And even worse, I forgot that it mattered. And here's the thing that's not just sad, it's a little dangerous. Because when we disconnect from play, we're not just missing out on fun. We're cutting ourselves off from joy, creativity, connection, and some of the best parts of being human. Play isn't just what kids do when they have free time or when they're bored. It's how we expand our thinking, reset our nervous systems, and remember that life is about so much more than checking things off of our to do list. So, as today's guest says, play is how we learn to be human. How we learn who. Who we are, how we learn to fail, communicate, love, fight, rebel desire, build and survive. At its best, play is life affirming, soul sustaining and mind expanding. And I don't know about you, but I could use a lot more of all of that. So let me introduce our guest. Cass Holman. Founder and chief designer of the toy company here is Will Rise and former professor of industrial design at RISD. Her work, including iconic designs like RigamaJig and GMO, has inspired playful learning and imagination all over the world. She's led workshops and seminars with teams at Google, Nike, Lego Foundation, Disney Imagineering, and in art museums across the globe. Her mission, to show us that play isn't just for kids and that it might be the thing our overworked, over, serious, over scheduled adult selves need the most. Cass, welcome to the show. And because I really mean it when I say that I don't know where to start, can you start us off by explaining what play even means for us as adults?

B (5:38)

Yeah. My party was called 50 and Feral. I really, I was like, this is how I'm gonna roll. You know, a friend, I might borrow that. Yeah, I encourage it. Do your best. I'm just giving you more homework now. Not only do you need to play, but yeah. So I mean, that was a beautiful introduction and I'm actually quite moved by your words because I think that your experience is a very common one. And the. Like you said that we trade in productivity for play, right? Or we, we prioritize our lives and the things in our lives in a way that don't leave room for play. We don't prioritize it. If we can start to understand the value of it, then we will. The way that, you know, we do with kind of a healthy diet and getting enough sleep. Right. Like maybe at some point in life we weren't, we, we weren't as in touch with how much we need to sleep or what a big difference it makes when we eat well. Right. And then as soon experience eating well or getting consistent amounts of good sleep, we like, oh, right. Okay. I'm gonna, this matters and I'm gonna make this a priority. So. And for me to your question, like kind of what does play mean to our lives? There's a lot of different kinds of play, right? There's kind of sports and video games and crossword puzzles and going dancing. Right. Going out to dinner with friends. So there are ways that we kind of, that adults are, are quite good at playing and we can do. And what I focus on in the book is free play, which is a little bit different than some of the more structured play in that it puts us in touch with kind of what we intuitively might do. So it's kind of open ended play. So unstructured. In my experience, being a professor of what I would consider young adults in undergraduate and graduate art education and also just in life as a professional person. In my experience, our lives are very structured and increasingly so, especially like you said, with product that need to be kind of productive or the feeling that we can't waste time. Like this idea that time is a commodity is even kind of telling in how we think about how we structure our lives. So in free play, it gives us a chance to connect with something that is not about an outcome. Right. So we can kind of dive into an activity, not know where it's going, not need to be good at it, and really just play for the sake of playing. Which is not to say that it doesn't have value. Right. So on the one hand in the book, I'm trying to balance that this has value and we should prioritize it and it's good for you. And at the other hand, I'm saying we need to be able to play not because it's just because it's good for you. Don't play because now you have to be good at play in the same way that you have the pressure of, great, now I have to be good at yoga or now I have to be good at. So these things that actually it's not about being good at it, about letting yourself do it.

B (14:26)

And it's still, I think for many it still is. But one example of that is the other night, some, some friends and I kind of in it. There was an impromptu. A lot of us trying to go out to dinner. And in New York you can't really just kind of roll up to a restaurant. And, and so we were kind of like, ah, we've got an hour wait over there. Or we could, you know, try to take the subway and go to this other neighborhood and maybe get in there. We were trying to eat somewhere good. But at some point I said, you know what? Like, success isn't a delicious meal. Success is that we all get to sit together and, and eat. Cause we're hungry. So let's just go to that place that's not that great, but we know we can get in, you know, so it was like such a. We like released ourselves from it having to be an epically delicious dinner. Because the point wasn't necessarily the meal. The point was all of us being together. Right. So I do, I think, like, it's important, I hope that we're starting to develop an awareness of do something because you love it, whether it's you or your children, like, be there for the, for the joy of it and the play of it, rather than the needing to be good at it or needing to succeed or become competitive or professional. You can be a bad dancer and keep dancing. There's so many ways to play basketball. If you're not on the winning team, it's about the play. Right? So releasing judgment is a big one. Reframing success is another. Releasing judgment is also trusting yourself and the people that you play with that they like you, like they wanna play with you. No one is gonna make fun of you for being bad. And then also like, don't make fun of yourself for being bad. Or you know, or if you really wanna dance while you're in line at the grocery store, let yourself do that, try it and everything will be okay afterward, right? Singing while you're walking down the sidewalk. And I think we often we just don't let ourselves do things because we're afraid of looking silly.

B (23:42)

Okay. So I mentioned meditative play, which is kind of a slow play, and I mentioned attention play, which was kind of the bird watching. And of course, like, with adults in the adult play types that I've kind of defined, all of them can be done socially, and many of them frequently are social. So social play is in its own category, because I think, like, we do these socially. And then similarly, free play isn't its own category because each of these types of play can be done as free play or as kind of more of an organized play. One that's kind of, I think, interesting is misbehavior play. You know, so some. For some people that could be, like, snooping or getting, you know, like, looking. Looking in somebody's fridge when you go to their house, which I am always want to do, whether or not I do it, which feels nicer than looking in medicine cabinets, which we also, I think probably most of us want to do, but that's kind of misbehavior play. But for many, like, having a night out where we, like, maybe we drink too much or kind of like pushing boundaries. Right. And I think that in that also, even kind of dressing up, whether it's like just putting on an outfit that feels more extreme or like, it Brings out some version of your personality is a way that we can also kind of play with our identities. So drag is kind of behavior play, but also kind of misbehavior play because for some people it's pushing against something they feel like they shouldn't be doing. There's also, there's like embodied play. And I think for adults, you know, dancing around and sports, of course, are embodied play. But on the free play end of things, I love a kitchen dance party just like impromptu while people are doing dishes, you know, move around all kinds of like, you know, swimming and playing at the beach and things like that are kind of a more of the free play version of embodied play. And I think that what you brought up with kind of rearranging things or tinkering are a little bit about like, there's something about creating order that can be playful. That also reminds me of watching a. I don't know when the last time is you watched a child play with a dollhouse. Kind of like making things feel just so as a way of feeling some control, whether it's domestic or not. And I think that that can be. Can be playful in a way that if we, if we kind of rearrange things such that we don't know, like, ah, what would happen if we did this. Right. So in, in each of like these, these adult play types, there's a way we can enter them with what if? And that helps us kind of stay open to whether or not it's successful. Right. So if you say, well, what if we put the couch over there? And then you might say like, oh, wow, yeah, that doesn't work. But you've learned something about what was good about it before. Right. And in the meantime, it probably changed the dynamic of what happened in your living room, you know, or saying like, let's all sit on the floor tonight. You know, I've done this before with dinner parties where we just, we run out of chairs. And rather than having a couple people sitting on the floor on a weird trash can, we just all sit on the floor. And it really changes the dynamic in a way that's quite lovely. And it takes all of us out of our normal, you know, posture. So there are ways that just shifting something, whether it's domestic or also in your work life, can really give you kind of. And thinking of it as play and entering it with a playful mindset can really kind of give you a new perspective and make something feel fresh or, you know, interesting again.

B (29:38)

Yeah. In play, you know, I mentioned trust and risk, and to play is to be vulnerable. Right. Which is why it's Hard and also why it is so profoundly important to us. Right. Like, the more vulnerable we are when we find ourselves in a vulnerable, like, usually that means that there's something, a large benefit or something really beneficial that we're going to gain by opening ourselves up to something. Right? So I think that, that having the conversation with. With your friends about, like, hey, do you want to try to play more? Or like, hey, I want to, you know, I read this book or I. I think I'm going to, will you do this with me? You know, and just kind of even prefacing it in advance. And I think we do this a little bit with friends. Like, if it's. If we're going somewhere and say, oh, you know, I kind of had a rough day, like, is it okay if I'm a little bit. You know? And just saying that kind of gives ourselves permission to like, show up wherever we are. And usually this is common. I'm not alone in doing this, but I definitely will be like, oh, I haven't seen this person in so long. I really. I need to like, show up and be fun and wonderful. And some days I just can't. Right? But I feel the pressure to like, show up and be an entertainer and be like, ah, I gotta be. We gotta have a great time. And the, the times that I let myself say, like, hey, I wanna come and I wanna be with you, but I, like, have had a rough day. Like, can we just laugh tonight? Like, I need to. Just whatever it takes. Like we need to, you know. And they're like, yes. So usually your friends will be so excited to know where you are and probably have their own whatever states they're showing up in. And whether it's, I had a rough day or I had an amazing day, like, play is exactly what we need in all of those. I think it's also the anecdote for so much. There's some uncertainty happening in the world right now. And people often think like, oh, we play when things are good. And it's like, well, we also need to play when things are bad. Actually, when things are rough is really when we need to be grounded in our humanity and in our sense of self. And that is what play does. So, yeah. So I think being honest with your friends and saying, here's this thing that I want to try, like, do you want to try it with me?