Podcast Summary: This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
Episode 355: How To Play: Shift Your Thinking, Inspire Connection & Spark Creativity with Cas Holman
Air date: October 22, 2025
Host: Nicole Kalil
Guest: Cas Holman, Founder/Chief Designer, Will Rise; former Professor at RISD; author of Playful
Overview
This episode delves into the transformative power of play—especially for adults. Host Nicole Kalil and renowned designer Cas Holman bust the myth that play is reserved for childhood, unpacking why reconnecting with play sparks creativity, deepens human connection, and brings much-needed relief from the grind of adulting. They discuss how to cultivate playfulness in daily life, overcome the guilt and self-judgment that keep us from it, and invite others into a more playful existence.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Importance of Adult Play (04:23–05:18)
- Nicole reflects on approaching her milestone 50th birthday, feeling she’s missed out on fun by swapping her “playful self” for a “productive self.”
- The danger of losing play: Nicole and Cas agree that distancing from play as adults not only lessens joy but also restricts creativity, emotional wellbeing, and meaningful connection.
"When we disconnect from play, we're not just missing out on fun. We're cutting ourselves off from joy, creativity, connection, and some of the best parts of being human." — Nicole (04:10)
2. What Adult Play Really Means (05:18–08:41)
- Cas defines play for adults: Beyond sports and games, “free play” is open-ended, intuitive, done for its own sake—not productivity or outcomes.
- Structured vs. free play: Free play reawakens curiosity and intrinsic motivation, reminding us of value beyond achievement.
"We need to be able to play not because it's good for you... It's not about being good at it, but about letting yourself do it." — Cas (08:10)
3. The Value and Science of Play (09:34–12:26)
- Scientific benefits: Cas references research by Lydia Denworth and Stuart Brown—playing improves mental, physical, and social health; play deprivation is harmful.
- Play as self-discovery: Engaging in meditative play (like puzzles or bird-watching) reattunes us to our needs, instincts, and creativity.
- Everyday play: Not all play is obvious—a lot of adult play happens in daily actions like people-watching or tinkering.
4. Overcoming Guilt and Competitiveness (12:26–16:24)
- Why we struggle: Nicole discusses guilt and the feeling that play isn’t a “good use of time.” Cas explains how school and culture condition us to equate worth to success and achievement.
- Three principles to reclaim playfulness:
- Reframe success: Is the goal to win, or to share joy and laughter?
- Release judgment: Most judgment is internal—let go of being “bad” at play.
- Embrace possibility: Stay curious; be open to where play leads you.
"You can be a bad dancer and keep dancing... It's about the play." — Cas (15:04)
5. Practical Tips and Play Types (20:04–27:19)
- Embrace possibility: Cas’s anecdote about a hike turning into a moss-hunting adventure illustrates how letting go of rigid goals creates unexpected joy.
- Adult play types, per Cas’s research:
- Meditative play: Slow, focused, calming (e.g., puzzles, crafting).
- Attention play: Observing the world (bird-watching, people-watching).
- Misbehavior play: Pushing boundaries, giggles, playful rebellion (e.g., peeking in a medicine cabinet, dressing up, laughing somewhere you “shouldn’t”).
- Embodied play: Movement, dance, impromptu actions.
- Tinkering: Rearranging, experimenting, “messing with things.”
"Tinkering is a very, very common way that adults play, and there's something there that we need, but we often don't let ourselves dive in." — Cas (22:45)
6. Social Play & Inviting Others In (29:01–31:52)
- Play as vulnerability and connection: It’s brave to invite play into friendships; open honesty is key to inviting others to join.
- Reassurance: Most people are ready to connect through play—they just need permission or an invitation.
"To play is to be vulnerable. Which is why it's hard and also why it is so profoundly important to us." — Cas (29:38)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “Just playing is already misbehaving in a way that I think requires that we be brave...” — Cas (28:51)
- “The older I get, the less I care. And it is freedom.” — Nicole (19:50)
- “Fun isn’t frivolous, joy isn’t optional, and reclaiming our playful selves, that is woman’s work.” — Nicole (end reflection, 32:38)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 00:53–04:23 – Nicole’s personal reflection on regret, seriousness, and the loss of play
- 05:18–08:41 – Cas Holman’s definition and philosophy of adult play
- 09:34–12:26 – The science-backed benefits of play and types of play adults already do
- 13:18–16:24 – Breaking free from achievement/guilt mentality; reframing success and releasing judgment
- 20:04–21:50 – Embracing possibility: anecdote about allowing play to redirect experiences
- 23:42–27:19 – Rundown of different “adult play types” and their importance
- 29:01–31:52 – How to invite friends/family to be more playful and vulnerable
Actionable Takeaways
- Start where you are: Recognize and value the play already present in your life.
- Challenge “productivity guilt”: Re-think success as creating joy, not outcomes.
- Let yourself play badly: The goal is process, not performance—release the need to be good.
- Invite others intentionally: Openly acknowledge your desire for more play and extend a genuine invitation.
- Small acts count: Movement, daydreaming, tinkering, or misbehaving in light ways all reawaken play.
Resources
- Cas Holman’s book: Playful
- Cas’s website: cassholman.com
- Cas on Instagram
- For in-depth science on play: Stuart Brown, Lydia Denworth
- Support local bookstores when purchasing Playful
This episode is a powerful invitation to reconnect with curiosity, possibility, and joy through play. It’s a practical and soulful reminder that “woman’s work” is ultimately being true to ourselves—including the parts that dance, tinker, misbehave, and laugh until it hurts.