Podcast Summary: "How to Push Back: From People-Pleasing to Power"

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil, Episode 369 (December 10, 2025)
Guest: Tonya Lester, Brooklyn-based psychotherapist and author
Host: Nicole Kalil

Episode Overview

This episode explores the art—and the necessity—of pushing back, particularly for women conditioned to prioritize harmony over honesty. Nicole Kalil and guest Tonya Lester dig into the “people-pleasing” trap and share practical strategies for advocating for your own needs in work, love, and life. Together, they challenge listeners to redefine what it means to be “difficult” and make space for healthy conflict as a sign of commitment, not rebellion.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Suppressing Needs and the Cost of Compliance

• Common Patterns (04:12):
  Tonya highlights how women are often conditioned to see their needs as less important, regularly defaulting to self-suppression in relationships—whether romantic, familial, or professional.
  • Quote: “Women do a default, that their needs are always the least important. And I think what raises to the level of where there should be conflict for some women, it’s just too low.”
    —Tonya Lester [04:32]
• Accumulating Resentment:
  Over time, these unspoken needs build mental and emotional barriers, leaving women feeling unseen and demotivated.

2. The “Do Nothing, Freak Out” Phenomenon

• Resentment and Explosions (07:09):
  Nicole and Tonya discuss the familiar cycle: suppressing feelings until a breaking point is reached, leading to emotional outbursts.
  • Quote: “I call this the do nothing, do nothing, do nothing, freak out phenomenon of communication.”
    —Tonya Lester [07:09]
• Aftermath:
  Outbursts often result in regretful apologies, but the original issues remain unresolved, perpetuating the cycle.

3. Responsible Communication: Early and Direct

• Clear, Direct Language (08:04):
  Tonya encourages using simple, honest statements to address issues before they explode, e.g., "I am not happy," or "This isn't working for me anymore."
  • Quote: “It’s okay to state things clearly... If we don’t say it out loud, we’re destroying ourselves.”
    —Tonya Lester [08:27]
• Investment in Relationships (10:53):
  Addressing problems is an act of care—not defiance. Holding space for each other's happiness creates emotional intimacy.
  • Quote: “If you don’t win, I don’t win. If both parties feel that way, you’re going to invest a lot in the happiness of the other person.”
    —Tonya Lester [11:18]

4. Collaboration is a Two-Way Street

• Inviting Collaboration (12:49):
  Tonya underscores that relationship health relies on mutual investment. Women often try to "row both oars" in relationships, doing all the emotional work while their partners coast.

  • Quote: “If you have someone who’s very, very self-centered... that’s extremely important information and you have a big decision to make.”
    —Tonya Lester [15:32]

• Men and Emotional Labor:
  The discussion touches on how men often haven’t been equipped with skills for empathy or collaboration, reinforcing unequal dynamics.

5. When Anger and Ultimatums are Appropriate

• Healthy Expression of Anger (21:04):
  Tonya argues that showing strong emotion can sometimes be necessary to be heard, as long as it doesn’t cross into abuse.
  • Quote: “Real change really never happens without someone’s feelings being hurt... That’s the fuel to change.”
    —Tonya Lester [22:06]
• Ultimatums vs. Boundaries:
  The difference between manipulative ultimatums and clear, necessary boundaries is discussed, especially around non-negotiable life choices (e.g., having children, infidelity).

6. Self-Reflection: Where Do You Fall on the Spectrum?

• Knowing Your Own Patterns (27:02):
  Both Nicole and Tonya admit to still struggling with advocating for their needs, despite their professional expertise.

  • Quote: “There’s an aspect of this, of kind of knowing which one you are...and push yourself."
    —Tonya Lester [27:32]

• Strategies:

  • If you never speak up: Try expressing your thoughts more often.
  • If you over-speak: Practice pausing and reflecting before raising issues.
  • “You can always say three days after the fact… I want to bring something up. It happened a while ago, but it’s turning in my mind and so I need to say it.” —Tonya Lester [28:24]

7. Conflict in the Workplace

• Power Dynamics (30:08):
  Addressing issues at work is more complex due to hierarchy and job security. If a workplace is toxic, it may require leaving rather than fighting.

  • Quote: “If you aren’t being valued in your workplace… you’re probably just going to have to leave. It’s very hard for one person to change a toxic environment.”
    —Tonya Lester [31:19]

• Building Skills:
  Use tough work environments to build skills (e.g., standing up for oneself, saying no, public speaking) that you can bring elsewhere.

• Practical Example (34:30):
  Tonya shares how a client challenged the expectation that she always take meeting notes by calmly suggesting a rotation, helping shift the team dynamic.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Holding Back:
  “I’ve swallowed my needs. I’ve stayed quiet to keep the peace, and then felt resentful when the people around me didn’t meet those needs that I never actually communicated.”
  —Nicole Kalil [02:40]
• On Flipping Tables:
  “I don’t ever condone, like, abusive language or name calling, but to say with feeling, ‘I am so unhappy. I cannot live like this. This has to change. You are not hearing me.’ I absolutely advise that.”
  —Tonya Lester [22:19]
• On Workplace Pushback:
  “What she did... at the beginning of the next meeting [was say] ‘Why don’t we take turns [with the notes]?’... Just having said it, just having approached it, and the leadership got on board.”
  —Tonya Lester [34:30]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Suppressing Needs & Emotional Accumulation: 04:12 – 06:08
• The “Do Nothing, Freak Out” Cycle & Breaking Points: 07:09 – 08:04
• Direct Communication Techniques & Emotional Collaboration: 08:04 – 14:30
• When to Stay or Leave Uncollaborative Relationships: 14:16 – 16:16
• Metaphorical Table-Flipping & Setting Boundaries: 21:04 – 25:56
• Self-Reflection & the Pendulum of Speaking Up: 27:02 – 29:23
• Conflict in the Workplace & Practical Examples: 30:08 – 35:13
• Closing Monologue from Nicole (“Be Difficult… For You”): 35:48 – 37:11

Final Takeaway

Nicole closes with an empowering call to redefine “difficult” as a badge of authenticity and self-respect, urging listeners to set boundaries, express their needs, and embrace constructive conflict as acts of care.

• Quote:
  “If standing up for yourself... makes you difficult, then go ahead, call me difficult... There’s no reward for being the easiest, quietest, most accommodating woman in the room. Only the slow erosion of your confidence and self-respect.”
  —Nicole Kalil [35:48]

Resources

• Tonya Lester Website: tonialester.com
• Tonya Lester’s Book: Push Back: Live Love and Work With Others Without Losing Yourself