← This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
How To Tame Your Inner Critic (Without Gaslighting Yourself) with Megan Dalla-Camina | 354
00:37:05
Your inner critic is basically a freeloading roommate who never shuts up — but you don’t have to let it run your life. In this episode, Megan Dalla-Camina exposes 13 flavors of head trash and gives us a no-BS method to stop believing the garbage and start tuning into the wiser voice that actually deserves the mic.
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I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. And on this episode we're talking about head trash because inner critic has always sounded a little too polite for the garbage that runs through my mind. You may call it something else, but I think you know what it is that I'm talking about. The voice in your head that shows up uninvited, has way too much to say and somehow thinks it's doing you A favor while picking apart everything that you do. The voice that tells you that you are not ready, that you're not enough, that you're too much, that you should have known better. Or my personal favorite, who the fuck do you think you are? The things the voices in my head says to me about me are never kind, rarely true, and absolutely not things that I would ever say out loud to someone that I love. Honestly, probably not even to somebody that I hate. And yet these voices take up space in our heads like they pay rent. They tell us who we need to be in order to stay safe, accepted, or to be successful, but often at the cost of our power, passion, and even our purpose. And if you're a high achieving woman, you've probably gotten really good at covering your inner critic with a whole lot of people. Pleasing, over performing and over delivering, which conveniently is exactly how those voices keep their jobs. But here's the question. What if it's not about silencing our head trash, because I'm not sure we ever can, but about transforming our relationship with it, about learning to shift from the critic's endless commentary to the voice of something far more trustworthy, our inner wisdom. So here to help us navigate this as Megan Dalla Kamina, globally recognized leader in women's leadership, bestselling author and founder of Women Rising, a movement defining how women lead and live and thrive. She's empowered thousands of women worldwide, earned top honors for her work in women's empowerment, and authored Women Rising and Simple Soulful Sacred Bringing Leadership and Spirituality. Megan offers practical, soulful pathways to help women rise into their power and awaken their inner wisdom. Megan, thanks for being our guest. And I want to dive us right into our inner critic because I'm fascinated. Rather than lumping them all into one thing like I have with Head Trash, you've actually identified 13 different inner critic archetypes. So first, let me ask you, how did you land on that number? And why did you feel like it was important to separate them and name them the way that you did?
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B
Yeah, great questions. Let's dive straight in. So, I mean, I've been doing work on the inner critic or the head trash is. I love that because that's what it feels like right inside our minds. Just where, where did all this trash come? For decades. And I've been coaching and supporting women like I've done my own work and then coaching and supporting women for 15, 18 years around this topic. When I started writing the Women Rising book, I wanted to go deeper because I find that the strategies across the breadth of the inner critic are fantastic. And we absolutely have to start there, and we can talk about what some of those strategies are. But, you know, I've worked with so many thousands of women, and what I have, and I'm a researcher, so what I've come to understand are the patterns that I've seen, you know, in the research, in my own, you know, practice with women. And I find that when we get to a level of specificity around what does my inner critic actually sound like? What are the stories specifically that my inner critic tells me? What's the light side of that? What's the shadow side of that? What do I do with that? Our ability to tame that inner critic. Not silence it, but tame it, befriend it, understand it, and then move through it becomes a lot easier and a lot more effective. So that's why I came up with the. With the archetypes 13. Look, I could have had 26. 13 felt like a good number, and that I could get enough clarity within those 13 to make them really meaningful for women.
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A
Okay, I love that you said tame it, because I think we both agree that it's never going away completely.
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B
Yes, yes, I believe so. What I have experienced myself and what I've seen for the women that I work with is that your inner critic can actually get very, very quiet. Like, at the moment, for a lot of women listening to this, it will be like it's on a. Like on a loudspeaker all of the time. But at the same time, we may not even realize that. We may not even be aware enough to know that this constant dissonance, cognitive dissonance, that's going on inside of our brain is not normal. You know, it's not something that we have to live with. So, you know, I found in my own experience, my inner critic is now very, very quiet. But it's not gone. It's not gone altogether. And that's not a bad thing. Like, our inner critic will keep us safe. You know, it can be protective, even though in a negative, not a positive way a lot of the time. But, yeah, I like that word taming. You know, quieting. Coming to terms with understanding. But, yeah, the job is not absolutely to eradicate it from our lives. I think it's an unrealistic goal.
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A
Yeah, it reminds me of a quote that I think of a lot when it comes to my head trash. And it's something to the effect of, you can't prevent a bird from flying over your head, but you can prevent it from building a nest in your hair. And that's sort of what I think we're talking about here, is a negative thought or an inner critic thought might pop in, but it might be quieter or it might be quicker, or it doesn't need to, like, take up loud, constant space in our brain. And that is ultimately what we're trying to do here.
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B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we're trying to, like, we're trying to wake up, we're trying to awaken ourselves. We're trying to bring more consciousness and awareness into our lives. Like, that's the bottom line. Like, if you really want to think about why do I care? Well, because I want you to live the life that you want to live. I want you to do the work that feels most meaningful and purposeful for you. I want you to show it with confidence and with authenticity and with clarity. And the thing that stops women the most from doing those things is not other people. It's the stories that we tell ourselves, the beliefs that we anchor into, and the meaning that we make from those things. And that's all wrapped up inside your inner critic. So that's why this matters so much.
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A
Agreed. Completely. So one of the things I often say is it's important to name it. And that's why I really love and was fascinated with these 13 different archetypes, is because you really got into the naming of it. Now I don't think we have time to go through all 13, but could you share, I don't know, a small handful that you think most people probably know intimately?
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B
Yes, absolutely. So here are. Here are a couple of the really common ones. And people will just start laughing, I'm sure. The perfectionist.
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A
Yeah. Never heard of that one.
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B
Never heard. No one's ever heard of the perfectionist. The people pleaser. Never heard of that one either. They are. They're the first two that I write about, and they are not that. And they're not in order, but they are two. That patriarchy has crafted so strongly in us as women that have. We've taken that external patriarchy about what does a good woman look like? How does a good woman behave? We've internalized that. We've put that on. That's our internalized patriarchy. And so often it shows up as the perfectionist or the people pleaser. So they're two super common ones. The comparer, you know, where I'm always judging myself based on what you're doing, what I'm seeing on social media, what the person next door is doing, and that is so prevalent in our society. Particularly, you know, right now, the overachiever. That's my personal favorite. You know, like, we're just always going for the next, you know, the next thing, that drive and strive mentality, the good girl. You know, I call the good girl the true daughter of the patriarchy, where we are always trying to live up to, you know, paternal expectations, cultural expectations, our boss's expectations, and always trying to fit into that good girl, you know, category. The ideal mother is another one that we see so much. You know, this sense that nothing I do as a mother is ever good enough. It's not good enough at home, it's not good enough at work. Fits into the motherhood paradox that I write about where we expect women, you know, to work like they don't have children and to mother like they don't have jobs outside the home. And that all feeds into this, you know, this ideal mother archetype that we often try and set up for ourselves. So there are a few, you know, they're. They're a handful that I'm sure is enough to get us started, definitely.
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A
And a lot of them align with what I call the confidence derailers. So for me, the confidence derailers are perfectionism, overthinking, comparison head trash that inter. And seeking confidence externally, which, like people pleasing and things.
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B
Validation. Yeah.
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A
Yes. Yeah. So I feel like we are very much on the same page. But my question. Question is, do you find that most of us have a one or two that we sort of default to when we're under stress or under pressure, like, almost like we don't even know we're doing it?
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B
Yeah, absolutely. And most. What I've experienced in the last year since, you know, since the book's been out, is that, you know, women will go through the list and go, oh, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. And there may be four or five that they really resonate, but when you start to remove the scaffolding, there is absolutely one or two that is like the bedrock of that inner critic voice. So, yeah, absolutely, there's a couple. And we've got this inner critic quiz that we can, you know, pop in the show notes for women where they can go and identify which of the, you know, main six inner critics do they most resonate with. But yes, certainly one or two. And we also have. Especially if we've done some of this work on our inner critic, we will have reformed inner critics, you know, like, so I think it's really important that women understand that we can move through this if you're a perfectionist, you're not. You weren't born a perfectionist. You don't need to die perfectionist. You know, I used to be a people pleaser. Really, really deeply conditioned people pleaser. I no longer am. And that's because I've, you know, I've. I think part of its age and stage, but a lot of it is also the work.
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Right.
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Like, this is the work that we do to be able to move through and let some of that go.
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A
Yeah. I'm so glad that you said that. Because we're not stuck in these archetypes. We have everything to say about what we do with them and how we even use them and how to tame them, as you said earlier. Yeah. So as you shared the list, I don't think there was a single one that I was like, never experienced that whatsoever. But as you said, I. I do think there's probably a couple that I gravitate to a little bit more than others. I think sometimes we judge ourself for falling into these traps, but the reality is we probably fell into them because they worked for us in some way. You know, they were necessary at some time in our life. I always like to think of it as like, we're not idiots. We didn't. We don't do this thing because it doesn't work for us in some way. As a perfectionist, there are lots of ways that my perfectionism has worked for me or that I've been praised for it or promoted for it or what have you. So I guess how do we navigate the useful parts or the parts where we've gone over to the dark side?
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B
Yeah, that's a great question. And again, I think it's really important that women understand there are forces outside of us that have shaped this inner critic voice. What I hear so much from women is I thought it was just me. And I read your book and I. For the first time in my life, and I could be in my 30s, my 40s, my 50s, for the first time in my life, I understand patriarchy and I understand these social constructs and gender norms and how they have shaped why I'm a perfectionist or why I'm a people pleaser, or why I show up as a good girl.
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A
Right.
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B
Why I'm the overachiever and I've been so successful. You know, I hear this from so many women, and yet I'm completely burnt out and unsatisfied and I'm off my purpose for path. So, you know, we need to. We need to really understand that. And then we also need to understand exactly, as you say, why, like, how has being a perfectionist served me? How has being a people pleaser served me? And I write about the light side and the shadow side because it's not all darkness. If it was all darkness, you know, we probably would have woken up to, to this fact a long time ago that we need to change this behavior. So understanding, yeah. If I'm a perfectionist, then I am going to most likely be a high achiever. I'm going to have the capacity to deliver extraordinary results. I'm going to be praised for those results. I'm going to have that beautiful dopamine hit in my brain every time someone says, great job, you're so amazing. All of this praise comes to us, which often comes to perfectionists. And I'm going to stay in that pattern because of that, because I'm just fed, you know, in that circle. But the question that we always come to with the inner critic is at what cost? At what cost are you getting that praise or that external validation? Or are you fitting in, you know, or are you pleasing other people at the expense of your own needs and your own requirements and your own soul at the end of the day? So when we understand both sides of that, it becomes a lot easier to recognize it and also to move through, you know, strategies to address it. Used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained, one who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New team. The new fragrance by Miu Miu, defined by you upgrade your laundry routine with a durable and reliable Maytag laundry pair at Lowes. Like the new Maytag washer and dryer with with performance enhanced stain fighting power designed to cut through serious dirt and grime.
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Yeah, look, I think the perfectionist is one of those that I hear, you know, like again and again and again. You know, I run this program called the Women Rising program. We've had 10,000 women in four years. So it's a massive research pool, you know, of women, all ages, all stages, all locations, you know, 68 countries. And the perfectionist is the one that I hear the most. And the question that I get asked is where women say, but it's the reason I'm successful. It's the reason that I've, you know, had the career success that I've got and that I've hit these heights. And if I let go of my perfectionist, then who will I be and how will I succeed? And that keeps women trapped. That belief, which is a very easy to understand belief, you know, like, I could relate to that, particularly in my younger years, where you're just pushing, pushing, pushing all of the time. Who am I? Without that perfectionist, my work will become terrible. I'll miss deadlines, you know, like, it's all gonna fall Apart if I release that. And it's just not true.
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A
Right. I'm curious. And this just popped into my head, so I'm not even sure I'm just gonna honor it. Cause it came into my head. But the patriarchy doesn't just negatively impact women. It negatively impacts everyone. And I have to imagine there's some of these inner critic archetypes for men, too. I think of, like, the provider or, I don't know, the strong man or the protector. Yeah. Yeah, there you go.
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B
Yep.
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A
Have you done any research or looked into any of those things? I'm just curious. I wonder what that would even look like. Is it 13 for men too?
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B
Yeah. Look, I don't know. Like, I'm not a expert and a researcher and a. And a coach. I mean, I do work with men. I do a lot of work with male. Men as male allies for women. But I'm not an. I wouldn't say. I'm not. Not an expert on, you know, men and archetypes and behavior. They absolutely will have their own. I think there's a lot of researchers out there who do work specifically on men and things like the protector, the provider, you know, would absolutely show up in those. The point that you make around patriarchy, not just being bad for women is so important. All genders, you know, and what we see with men and women specifically being trapped in gender normative behavior, in societal expectations about, this is what a good man looks like, this is what a good woman looks like. You know, that's what we don't understand. We think patriarchy is about pitting men against women. It's not that. It's how do we change it for all of us, and what are our roles in that? And I, you know, I talk, write, and teach a lot about that, the men aspect, because it's how we come together. And it's how, you know, most of the men that I work with want to be better allies for women.
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Right.
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You know, and they also want to break out of those gender norms that they feel that they're trapped in by patriarchy. So it's really important that we have that conversation.
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A
Yeah. That aligns with my experience too. And I often say I don't advocate for women at the expense of men or any gender. I'm not anti men, I'm anti asshole. But that's anyone of any gender.
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B
Yes. I love that. 100%. Yeah. Okay.
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A
I took us down a little rabbit hole. I want to go back to taming our inner critic and whatever form it shows up in what are some tactics, tips, tools, things that we can do to begin to tame or quiet the critic, the head trash when it screams in our brains?
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B
Yes. So I'll give you the one, the one tool across the board, right? No matter what inner critic you relate to, each of them in the book gets more specificity. But here's the tool that I work with myself and that, you know, with the women that I support. So the first thing is you need to start noticing and catching your inner critic stories. You know, we go through our days and we are, until we start doing this work, completely unaware of what are the stories that are keeping us stuck. You know, I always come back to the research definition of confidence. You know, confidence is the ability to turn our thoughts into action. It's that simple. Have a thought. Here's the action. What stops us? The story. Right? The inner critic story, the beliefs that we have. So step one is catch the story. And the way that I recommend women do this, or anybody listening works for all genders, is think back to something that's happened in the last four weeks. It could be something that happened at work. You know, you wanted to speak up at a meeting, you wanted to put an idea forward, you wanted to ask for a pay rise, whatever it is, and you didn't do it. Think back to that situation and tune in. Like, what were the stories I was telling myself in that exact moment. Because when, again, when we can get that clarity and specificity, we can then work through, right? So number one, catch the story. Number two, we want to interrupt the cognitive dissonance of that story. And the most simple way that I've ever found to do this is just ask yourself the question, is that true? Is that true? And I, like, I'm old school, stick it on a post it note, put it in his alert in your phone, write it on a notes app, whatever you want to do, constantly remind yourself to interrupt the story that you're telling by asking, is that true? And what we're trying to do here in step two is not. We're not trying to come up with false narratives. False, true narratives. It may be true. It may be true that I don't have all the skills to go for the next role, but it may also be true that I can learn those two things on the job because I've got eight out of 10, right? So we're trying to like, interrupt that cognitive dissonance, break the story, get to the truth of the situation, and then step three is reframe the story. How do you create A better story that takes you in the direction you want to go. How do you create a better story that serves you rather than stops you from taking that next action? So that three step process I find, no matter which inner critic archetype you relate to, is number one, super simple, catch the story. Is that true? Reframe the story and it will help you get really deeply acquainted with what's going on inside your mind and the impact that's having. And when we challenge those stories, we get to know ourselves so well. Like we see our patterns and behaviors and the future that that alone can unlock for us. I've seen to be remarkable.
- [27:37]
A
Yeah, well, you don't need my endorsement, but I endorse everything that you just said. It works, it makes a difference. And you can begin to practice it so much that it becomes natural. Like it becomes something that you just do by auto response. And it's so, so, so helpful. So I want to talk about the question, is it true? Because this seems like it would be a really simple question, but I found it to be way more challenging than it sounds like it would be because we tend to really believe our stories, especially ones that are old or that are aligned with our experiences and our values. We buy into our own crap a lot of the time. And so this. Is it true? I found like going to is it factual? Like what are the facts here? And then like, okay, what am I making up about the facts? But the example of that you gave of, I might not have two of the skills. What are the skills needed? What skills do I have? What do I have experience with? What have I learned? Like really going to the, the facts of the matter? Because we interact with our opinions, our beliefs, our interpretations and our perceptions as if they were a fact a lot. And so any thoughts on this simple question? But that can be really hard. Is it true? Like how do we actually get to the truth of the matter?
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B
Yes. Yeah, look, this is really, this is a really important point. And you know, I will say when you start doing this work, it can take a long time, you know, versus, you know, now. Like, you know, like I look at my own life now. I can. For most things I could go through that in 30 seconds. If I'm feeling stuck on something, boom, there. Okay, let's move through that. And for some things that's not true. For some things they are deeper, they're much more embedded and ingrained and a story may pop up and you're like, oh, wow, that really caught me off guard. I didn't know I still thought that about myself. How do I break it down? And that's why I like the specificity of, you know, direct incidences that have happened and work through that. Is that true line for that specific thing? Because if you try and pick a story like I'm not good enough, where do you even start with that? Right? Where do you even start with trying to find the facts? And how do I distill that and how do I break that down versus I didn't feel good enough in that meeting last Tuesday with those three people? Okay, now we've got something that we can work with. So I find that, that, you know, the more you can like laser in on. On something on, on a specific thought that's happened in a situation that's taken place, we can get into that. Is that true? Much with much more granularity without going down a rabbit hole to unpack it. And then all of those times we do that, they build on themselves and they can build up to a bigger story. Does that make sense?
- [30:57]
A
It does. It reminds me of the phrase practice makes progress. Right. Perfection is not an available option for any of us. But the more we practice this, and yes, it takes time, but the more we practice it, the better, the quicker, the more meaningful it gets. And as you said, it just sort of layers on top of each other. That's been true to experience too. Having said that, in full transparency, especially when I'm under stress or pressure or feeling burnt out, it's amazing where I'll catch myself and I'm like, oh my God, this old story again. Like I thought, I thought I dealt with that.
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B
I dealt with that 100%.
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A
Son of a bitch.
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B
100%. Yeah. And they do. And, and, and once we have this language, I find the other thing about the archetypes that's really helpful is it gives it language, you know, when we're doing something and like, exactly like you've just said, sometimes I will do something and I'll go, oh my God, there's that fucking people pleaser again. I thought I'd put that to bed 15 years ago and boom, there she is again. You know, the fact that I have language for that behavior, for that story, and that I have the tools. Okay, great, there she is. What am I gonna go do with her now? Versus I'm just sort of lost in this behavior and I can't see my way out. And that is the situation for so many women.
- [32:25]
A
Yeah, that's what I really love about these archetypes is because I think sometimes we have a hard time separating the inner critic from our inner knowing. Yeah. Sometimes they. They feel the same. Or sometimes the inner critic is so much louder than our inner knowing, which sometimes whispers. Right. And until you name it, until you put words on it, until you call it something, you can unconsciously or inadvertently interact with it as if it's something else. So you can. The perfectionist can be talking, but you can think of it as, like, your instinct or your inner knowing. And that's what I really like about calling it what it is. So when it pops up, whether it's a pattern you haven't dealt with or one that still keeps popping up after 20 years, you know, it's like, oh, I know who this is. I know what voice this is. And you can deal with it for what it is versus thinking it's something else. Am I making any sense?
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B
You're making complete sense. You're making complete sense. You know, and it lets us identify it as something outside of us.
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A
Right, right.
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B
That my people pleaser has one seat in my car, but it can sit there and be very quiet. But I see you. Like, I recognize you. And the things that we revert to when we're stressed, when we're under pressure. Okay, watch that overachiever come up, because I'm gonna think, because that's my archetype, I need to do more and more is the answer. So, yeah, like, the language, the understanding that these are the stories, this is the shadow side. You keep going down this path of the overachiever, here's what's going to happen, right? You're going to burn out. You're going to this, you're going to this, and then all of that can help us just come back to, well, what do I know to be true? Who am I without those stories? And get to that place of inner wisdom, which is, you know, what I. I write about? How do we move from that inner critic to that inner wisdom and live from that place?
- [34:41]
A
Yeah. I love the visual of it being in the car with us. Right. And it's like sometimes it's backseat driving. Sometimes it might pop up in the front seat, but we can't let it take the wheel. And it's not in charge of the playlist. Right. So, yes, it has its place, but we have everything to say about where it's sitting. Yes. Something about that really resonates with me. Okay. Megan. Oh, God. I could talk about this topic with you all day long. Thank you for doing this work. Thank you for identifying all the different versions of it. I know our listeners are gonna want to find the quiz that you mentioned earlier, so we'll put that as well as all the other ways to find and follow Megan in show notes. But you can find Megan on LinkedIn or Instagram or all the Socialsagondala Camina, wherever it is that you're on social media. And Megan, thank you so much for an incredible conversation for this really important work that you do.
- [35:42]
B
Thank you so much and thank you for your work. It's great to be with you.
- [35:45]
A
My pleasure. All right, here's the truth, friend, your inner critic, your head trash. It might never go away completely, but that doesn't mean that it gets to run the show. You get to decide how much space it takes up, how much weight it carries, and how much power it has over your choices. You can stop treating every thought like it's fact and start choosing which voices get your attention. You can recognize the patterns, name the archetypes, and remember, just because it's loud doesn't mean it's right. So the next time that inner critic pipes up with its same tired script, you don't have to fight it or obey it. You can thank it for its concern and then turn up the volume on the wiser, braver, truer voice inside of you. Because you were never meant to live your life listening to the voices in your head, cleaning out the head trash, reclaiming your power and choosing your own narrative. Well, all of that is woman's work.
- [36:46]
B
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- [37:16]
A
DC politicians want to enact harmful credit card mandates that could take away your cash back and rewards points, perks that stretch your budget and make life a little easier.
- [37:27]
B
Losing these benefits means less money for your family's everyday essentials like gas and groceries.
- [37:33]
A
The perks you rely on could disappear.
- [37:35]
B
Leaving you with higher costs and fewer options.
- [37:38]
A
Tell Congress to guard your card and oppose the Durbin Marshall credit card mandates.
- [37:43]
B
Paid for by Electronic Payments Coalition.