Michelle Savage (4:10)

That sounds great and thank you for having me, Nicole. So excited to be here.

Nicole Kahlil (4:14)

Okay, awesome. So let's start with the writing part and very specifically with the procrastination part because I think that that is something that impacts a great many of us. So any experience, ideas, tactics, anything to address this procrastination that seems to pop up when it comes to writing a book.

Michelle Savage (4:35)

Absolutely. You said it right. That piece of accountability is key to getting from that big idea across the finish line of having a completed manuscript. But it can be really challenging if you're saying, all right, I'm going to write a book. And maybe you're not already a practiced writer. You may have, you know, written for work, you may have written a blog, you may have written for school, but sitting down to write a book is a whole other animal. We talked to authors and you said you put your ass in the seat. We always say buns in seat, write, repeat. And it really is that commitment to opening up, you know, if you have the old time paper daytimer or your Google calendar and putting yourself on your schedule as a non negotiable and then communicating that to the other people in your lives, in your life to say, guess what guys, I can't be interrupted during this time. And it might be that your house is a little messier and somebody else is taking care of your kids for an afternoon, but it really is that commitment to yourself to say this is a non negotiable and if you put those blinders on and just are unwilling to tolerate anything other than completion, you will get to the end. But it does also help to write in community with other people if you have an accountability buddy. I've seen women get together and do write ins where they do timed writings and that can be so effective in moving the needle on your project.

Nicole Kahlil (6:06)

All phenomenal ideas and speak to my experience. I ended up hiring a writing partner mostly because I needed the accountability. I need to have somebody that I knew was waiting on something for me or showing up to a call and having to have done my part like that was really important. But I love this idea of writing times with other people and it just. Everything's easier to do in community. So any tips for the actual writing process? Maybe it's starting with an outline or setting aside a certain amount of time each week or I've heard people who record themselves and then take the transcript and use that as a starting point. And any, I don't know, hacks, if you will, for the writing process?

Michelle Savage (6:53)

Yes, to all of the things you just mentioned in terms of starting with an outline and or recording the entire thing and using that transcript to then write the book. I've assisted authors in all methods and it's easy to say trust the process, but if you haven't done it before, you don't really know what your process is is. So if you start down one path and it starts to feel like it's not going anywhere, maybe switch and try something else. We've used transcription apps where we've helped authors to record an entire book and then take that messy transcript that has the timestamps and the ums and the OS and all of the superfluous language we have when we tell a story in person. But we've been able to mold that and shape that into an entire book. And we've also said, all right, maybe you want to just do a really messy mind map. But I think the first step is to really just pour it onto the page and it's not the time to judge whether or not it's good. Because if you get caught up in that self doubt of oh my gosh, everything I'm writing is garbage. I don't know how I'm going to get it to look like anything that should ever be published and shown to the world. You're not going to be able to get past your first chapter. So I think it's really about turning off that judge in your mind and just turning on the witness to your own ideas. Observing what comes through. This is very woo woo. But I say light the candle on your desk and say to yourself, let it be easy, it's supposed to be fun. The writing process is a creative process. And so maybe you start by timelining your life because you sort of forget how many experiences you've had that might come back and influence your novel or your manuscript and make it more interesting. But the key is don't wait. And until you have this fully formed idea in your mind before you begin, some people say, oh, I'm gonna wait until I've got it all figured out and then I'm going to write my book. And that's just not how, in my experience, it's not how the creative process works. You learn by doing and sometimes you write off track and write yourself into a corner and you kind of have to back out and start again. But that doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. It's just that you have to get something on the page and then the magic really starts happening in the editing. And I highly recommend getting help with that. You don't have to do it alone 1 million percent.

Nicole Kahlil (9:25)

I think if you're going to invest in anything or anyone, it's a good, strong editor or editing team. Michelle, there was so much excellent advice in what you just said. I hope you know I would listen to that multiple times if I were you. If you're like right before you sit down to write, it's such good advice. The willingness to pivot if something isn't working for you to sort of set it aside and go another way. I've told people this before, but I actually started writing a different book than the one I released and it was like, oh my gosh, this is the book that actually wants to get written. And I had to learn that by doing so. That was really good advice. Okay, so one last question on the writing part. Are there any resources or apps or things to consider? You'd mentioned an editor. Couldn't agree more. But like financial resources. ChatGPT hiring a coach. I mean, there's so many things. Are there any things that you have found to really be helpful in the writing process?

Michelle Savage (10:29)

I think hiring a book coach can be extremely helpful so that you feel like you have that objective voice, especially if it's your first time. And it can be something where it's an ongoing hand holding experience or there are, I'm sure, people out there that will kind of meet with you quarterly to say, all right, let's do a deep dive brainstorm. Let's get your outline going. Here's a calendar you can work with to chop up your chapters and try to stay on a schedule. And maybe that helps people and that's all they need. And then some people really do need that hand holding weekly check in or monthly check in. And there's all levels of support in all the way up to ghostwriting and developmental editors that will really take your really sloppy first draft and judge it into something that engages readers. The structure and the flow is really powerful. It's still your story, but they're just going to help make sure that you tell it to the best of your ability. Yeah, I think that, you know, again, writing groups can be really helpful for that too.

Nicole Kahlil (11:33)

Somebody told me this, I'm curious your reaction. When I was writing my book, they basically said, you need to accept that it's going to be a huge investment, time, energy, creativity and money. And that you are more than likely not going to recoup that investment in any monetary or like directly tangible way. It could seem disheartening, but for me, having that mentality going into it was really helpful because I let go of this idea that I was going to make a ton of money from my book. What is your reaction?

Michelle Savage (12:09)

I am so happy that you got that advice. And it's exactly the advice that I give to authors all of the time because they say, okay, to join your publishing program, it costs this much. What's the roi? And then they look at me, you know, with starry eyes, waiting for me to say, oh, well, you're going to make a ton of money off royalties. Which I would never ever say, because.

Nicole Kahlil (12:30)

Unless it's it is.

Michelle Savage (12:33)

And unless you're writing some Harry Potters or, you know, you're Brene Brown, you are not rolling in the royalties. It's not how it works. But what you said was really key. You said direct funds coming from your book. The best ROI you're going to get on your book is indirect. The indirect benefits of what can happen when you invest the time and you invest the money into becoming a published author is unbelievable. It's unbelievable what can happen. It can get you on bigger speaking stages. It can get you on amazing podcasts like this one. It can open doors to new clients and new possibilities that you never would have had if you had not become a published author. It sets you up as an authority in your field, it makes you newsworthy, and it helps people like know and trust you in such a greater way than you could ever do from a quick social media post that disappears in an instant. Even a blog or an email, and even your website, even if you've got a great website. Writing a book lets people get to know you and it helps you build that credibility. Whether it's you're a thought leader and you want to, you know, share your ideas and become known for those, or you want, you know, and it's a memoir, or if it's a how to book and you want to be an industry leader, all of those indirect benefits that you can get from being published will boost your business, boost your influence, and build an audience of people who are interested in what you're doing. So, yes, you can actually make far more from leveraging your book as a published author than you will ever off the cute and adorable royalties that you get from book sales.

Nicole Kahlil (14:22)

Yeah, I'm so glad you dove into that, because that is the advice that I got and couldn't be any truer. Like, I consider it the best business card for me and my business. And it has triggered bigger stages and attracted not just people, but, like, the right type of people because they really get to know you and your message and your style. So there are a lot of positive benefits. But the 92 cents I make perfect hardcover is like, not. It'll be like the year 2076 or whatever until I recoup whatever investment I've made. So how important is it to know what your goals are as you're writing? Like asking yourself, as you're writing, do you want to make money indirectly in some way? Do you care about sales or numbers? Being a bestseller, Is it a business card? Is it a passion project? Is it going to get you connected to the right people, the right opportunities? Like, how important is it to ask those questions and at least have an idea of the answers as you're in the writing and heading towards the publishing process?

Michelle Savage (15:34)

I would like to say that it's always important, but that might not be true. I think if you're writing something that just feels like a creative expression for yourself, you can worry about that later and find a way to position it to publish it. If not, you may have to go back and edit it. But if you do know that you're writing a book for your business that you do want to launch and leverage to drive authors to take a specific action or make you known for a specific thing, you absolutely need to keep your reader in mind as you're writing the book. There are always ways to go back and kind of, you know, reevaluate and recalibrate the language in your book. If you say, oh, it was close, but it wasn't quite on. But the you. Anytime an author is writing and publishing with us, I always say, okay, well, a few questions. Who is this for? And what do you want them to get out of it? What do you hope your reader walks away from? Are they going to be educated, inspired? Are they going to be entertained? And you want them to laugh? You know, there's lots of reasons. Maybe it's that you want them to feel more connected to an idea or less alone with something. There's so many benefits that you know that you're going to deliver to your reader. And the other question I say is, what do you want the book to do for you? And is it just, I just want to slap it on Amazon and sell a handful of copies and check it off my bucket list that, oh my gosh, I did it. Or do you really want to publish with a big five publishing house? And you won't feel legit until you get that contract and it's in every Barnes and Noble. So you have to decide for yourself what's going to feel like enough and what's going to feel like a success to you. Because if you are only going to feel like a legit author, if you, you know, a Penguin or a Random House picks up your book, then you really have to write specifically for an audience that will be marketable to, you know that they will see as marketable, that they know that they can promote your book and sell the heck out of it. But in the writing process, I would say don't get stymied, though, with the outcome. So it can kind of be a catch 22. Yes, you want to know where it's going. Yes, you want to know what your vision is, who it's for, what you hope it does for you, and don't let that stop the creative process, because it can kind of be overwhelming thinking, oh, my gosh, it's not going to be good enough. It's not going to hit the mark. So it is sort of a push pull in that way where you you want to know the outcome but you don't want to get caught or stuck in the creative process where that's all you're thinking about.

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Nicole Kahlil (19:51)

So that leads to the publishing part and I made up. I don't know if this is true or not that it's really hard for a first time author to get a traditional publisher to pick up your book and I felt like I would be wasting a lot of time and energy and it would delay this book coming out even more if I tried really really really really hard to go the traditional publishing route. So before we talk about the alternate options, I just would love to hear your reaction to that idea of traditional publishing. Is it as hard as I think it is and does it really happen all that often? For first time authors. What are your thoughts there?

Michelle Savage (20:32)

Well, first I want to start by saying that any way that you get published makes you a legitimate author. If you have completed a manuscript and you get that bad boy printed and sold or just printed print on demand, whatever it is, you are a legitimately published author. So there's zero judgment in any of the information I'm going to share. I think as a little girl, I grew up thinking that the only way, and probably back then the only way that people got published was through a traditional publishing house. It was easier, I hear tell back in the day to get a contract and it has become much more difficult. They want authors to show that they're going to be able to really pull their weight in terms of marketing the book. So not always, but often they want to see that you have already built up an audience that's going to be really excited to buy that book on launch day or pre order your book before it even comes out. They also want to know that there's an audience for it, so there's demand for your book, but that it's also filling a niche that hasn't been filled yet. So where is it going to fit on the shelf? It's not exactly like another book that's selling well, but there's a demand for that kind of book. So those are all things to keep in mind as you're thinking about publishing with a traditional publisher. I wouldn't. If that's the one thing you want more than anything and it's not time sensitive, go for it. Why not throw your hat in the ring? Give it a shot. Because sometimes a publisher will take a book because they love the concept so much that they're willing to give it a shot, that is also to say time sensitive. Even when you've got the agent and then they've pitched your book to the publisher and the publisher says, yes, let's sign the contract. You may not see your book on a shelf still for two years. And so it's not that you're getting some giant advance that, you know, we thought, oh wow, a fancy, you know, you're living the, the sex and the city life of an expensive apartment in New York while you write your book. That does not happen very especially for a first time author. If you really want to go for it, give it a whirl. I don't want to rain on anybody's dreams here, but if what you want more than anything is to get published now and to have that book in your hands, to use it for things that you'd like to use it for. Look at some of the other options. I will also say with traditional publishing, they have the corner on distribution. So if you want to see your book on every bookstore and in airports, that is probably your best bet.

Nicole Kahlil (23:18)

Yes. So I am going to say this. You're not saying this. I'm saying this because it was something I had to do is. And I'm so glad you said if being an author, being a published author is the goal, then it doesn't really matter how you do it because you are a published author in all of the ways. But I had to sort of let go of this idea of there was one legitimate, and I put in air quotes, legitimate way to do it versus a variety of ways to do it. And I have talked to several friends who have written books through one of the big five and after writing another way, like they self published the first time around or they did hybrid or something along those lines. And without exception, because I'm not talking to Mel Robbins or Brene Brown or Glennon Doyle. Right. Without exception, they were like, I did most of the work, it was a complete pain in the ass and I liked it better the way I did it the first time around. When you say, you know, they need to know that you're going to be able to market and sell the book. They want you to be a celebrity in order to do that. And the celebrities get all the time attention and love, not so much the regular people like me or I would imagine most of our listeners. So I'm just going to throw that out there in hopes that you take it the way I intend it, which is, I wish somebody would have said that to me, like, let go of this idea. If you care more about getting the book out there and in people's hands and the impact that it can have on them and on your business. So let's talk about hybrid and self publishing quickly because I also want to talk about how Sulit, your company publishes books. So quick hybrid selfie, the quick down.

Michelle Savage (24:59)

And dirty of the other, the other end of the stick. So on the one end you have the traditional publishing, on the far other end you have self self publishing. Luckily, Amazon has democratized publishing. So anybody can put a book on Amazon and sell it and sometimes sell it. Well, the thing about that is while how to do it is all googleable, if that's a word, it's not super complex. Some people can figure it out. But can you do it well? So you are responsible then for managing the project, meaning Sourcing the vendors, making sure you are paying individual editors, creating a quality book. So you're getting the COVID design, the graphic design, the marketing in place, the interior formatting, all of the tiny little details that go into actually creating a book. You need to be able to manage those. And some people can do it well. And others, they want to, you know, get their mom to edit the book who is an English teacher and they get a cheap cover designer and they don't go through the many professional layers of editing and it really shows. And others do it well and they have full control over the rights and royalties of their book. And, and it's fantastic. So it can be done. You can absolutely self publish your own high quality book. But don't mistake that it is free. You still, it's free to put it on Amazon, but it's still going to be an investment to make sure that you are going through all of the stages and hiring the support you need to create a quality book. And then in the middle.

Nicole Kahlil (26:40)

Michelle, let me just say real quick, I think you're being kind. Most people who self publish don't do it well, in my opinion. It's, it's kind of blatantly obvious. And I'm not saying not to self publish especially if all you care about is putting this out into the world or that, you know, it will impact a few people or whatever. But yeah, some people do it well, most don't. All right, let's talk about hybrid. Yeah.

Michelle Savage (27:03)

And because most people are not able to create a self published book that's quality, the hybrid publishing process is fantastic. You know, if you, I will say hybrid publishing is like the wild west. So do your due diligence. There are lots of companies out there that have a really shiny sales process and you have a great looking contract and you're promised a lot and then you're hunting down your services and they come back really half ass and it's the saddest thing ever. But there are lots of good hybrid publishers or self publishing assistant kind of companies that will, it's done for you. So they will help you with the editing, all of the pieces that you need to put in place and then they will be the ones to upload your book and make sure that everything is launching correctly and they can upload it not just to Amazon but also to IngramSpark and so that that's available for distribution worldwide. Super important to do that if you are going to do hybrid or self publishing. But it's kind of an incubator where there should be a team that's already in place, they're highly skilled and it's a done for you process. The benefit is obviously you're not waiting for someone to say yes, you know, like you would the traditional publisher. It's done better and super high quality, hopefully a great quality of book. And it's more immediate, the royalty split. Sometimes they will sell it where you maintain all the rights and royalties, even in a hybrid publisher. Or sometimes it's just a more favorable split of 70% or something to the author and 30% to the publisher just to, you know, keep them marketing your book. So it's a really smart way for authors who don't want to go down the rabbit hole and have to manage a whole project, but they want their book to be done well and faster.

Nicole Kahlil (28:54)

And so Sulet Press, your publishing company, does hybrid. Correct. And you also do something a little bit unique about how authors can even approach writing a book. So tell us a little bit about that.

Michelle Savage (29:09)

So we have shifted from that space of publishing solo books, one author, one book, to multi author books where we create a title or concept and authors enroll to write a single chapter in that book and then we launch it as a collective. So we spend eight weeks coaching online the elements of good storytelling and how to tell your story well. And then we also have the education piece of what do you do with it when you're done? How do you leverage that book? Align it with your brand or your big vision goals so that you can use that book to leap into your next vision and make that a reality. So we want to create all of the tools that people need and the education of how to use it and a fantastic book. And what we've discovered is that when authors take full ownership of the book, they are able to leverage a book that they've written a single chapter in at least as well, if not better than if they'd written the entire thing themselves. In part because they're not just launching to their network. It's 16 authors launching to 16 networks. So the visibility is exponential. And then they're also part of this community of other high vibe ass kicking women who have a lot going on and they're referring each other to different opportunities and podcasts and speaking gigs. And there's a mastermind that's created within the cohort of authors. So it just keeps building and building. It's kind of that idea of the rising tide lifts all boats and we've just seen how successful it is for our authors.

Nicole Kahlil (30:51)

Yeah, Michelle, if I would have met you three or four years ago, I would 100% have done this. What a great way to transition into being an author and then learn and grow and experience and leverage. I mean marketing was the hardest part of the process for me. And to have 15 other people out there marketing with me and that collective collaborative, I mean, God, what a phenomenal idea. So we have to talk a little bit about marketing. As I mentioned already a bazillion times is it was the most challenging, most exhausting, most painful part for me. What is it that we're talking about here? When you say marketing a book? Give us some idea of what goes into it from the get go.

Michelle Savage (31:40)

You want to start marketing the book before it is published if at all possible. Especially if you are writing a solo book six months a year in advance. The second you decide to start it, go and start, go ahead and start putting that bug in everyone's ear. With the multi author books, we build what we call a launch squad. So we get all of our communities, collective communities, excited and enrolled in the process with us. So when that book hits the shelves on launch day, it, well so far every time it's become a best selling book on Amazon on launch day, it's not a New York Times bestseller. It's a pretty exciting thing though to get that Amazon bestseller feather in your cap and then it's in your bio forever and ever. So that's just step one. And a lot of that has to do with we create, you know, the graphics and we're blasting it on socials and we're hosting launch events in person. And so that's really where that very exciting pre launch and launch marketing happens. But then there's something called the long launch, you know, so once that that burst and explosion happens, it sometimes like fizzles out for authors. You know, they put that book up, then what you know, and so we really work with authors to say, okay, now what can you do with it? So then we get into, let's look at what you're trying to build and how the message of your chapter aligns with that and create some branding around that. So we are hosting now some workshops on pitching. How do you create the perfect pitch so that you're out there really creating a message that resonates and utilizes the book to move your business forward and your message forward. So it's really about the individual's goals on what best, what the marketing is for that individual. But for example, we just had an author, she's been hosting her own launch events all over The United States from writing a single chapter in a book. Well, she was just at a Harvard book signing, and now that book is in Harvard. So not only is Harvard her book at Harvard, but so are all the other authors that were part of that book. Another author was just in USA Today. So then everybody who checks out that book, they can now say, oh, my gosh, our book was featured in USA Today. And so it really is exciting that it opens the door to all of these opportunities. And if you understand how to capitalize on them, you can continue marketing your book to different and new audiences over time. It's just a matter of kind of dreaming big and understanding what's even possible and then having the tools and the support to take advantage of it.

Nicole Kahlil (34:18)

Yeah. So to put this in perspective from. For about the four months, two months pre launch, two and a half months after launch, I was a guest on 52 podcasts. I did four live book event signings, I did countless, I mean, literally have no idea how many webinars and workshops, a few speaking engagements, all to promote my book. And I was as burnt out as I've ever been in my entire life after that. The idea of being able to divide and conquer and have again, 15 other women out there checking all in some of those boxes, I mean, you're just speaking my language. What a phenomenal approach. An exciting different way to do it. So I know we're getting tight on time here. I have two last questions. Any big mistakes you see people make in the marketing side, anything that they should pay attention to? So I'll give you the example of an author gave me advice. I was trying really, really, really hard to do like a. A book tour, like going to different bookstores. And they were like, stop doing that. Start focusing on a podcast tour. Best advice ever. So any mistakes you see people making or redirects, that would be helpful for our listeners?

Michelle Savage (35:42)

It's a great question, actually. I think you named the number one is spending too much FaceTime thinking that it all has to be energy expended in person and also don't wait for it to come to you. Some people think, okay, well, now I just put it up there. You do have to do the work, but be really intentional about it so you don't hopefully burn yourself out. Podcast tours are the new book tour. Even if you go with a traditional publisher, they're not booking you on some glamorous book tour and paying for it. You're still paying for that yourself, so don't be fooled. And also, you're then talking to maybe 20 or 30 people in a room. But if you really want to spread the word about your book, getting on a podcast puts you in front of a much larger audience from the comfort of your office or your own home. And it's just a smarter way to just working smarter, not harder to market your book. I think that's so brilliant that you brought that up.

Nicole Kahlil (36:41)

Yeah. And I will attest, even the biggest publishing houses are prioritizing the podcast tour because we get countless pitches a week from those publishing houses for their female authors. So it is very much the route I think people are going. All right, my last question. What do you say, Michelle, to women who feel that their stories aren't big enough to be shared in a book, or they don't feel like they have something and I put in air quotes worthy of talking about, or they're not the expert yet. What's your advice for people who are dealing with that?

Michelle Savage (37:18)

Oh, this is my favorite question. I love our authors so much when they come with this. First of all, so many authors underestimate the value of their experiences. And they think, gosh, who else cares what I have to say? Or why would this matter to someone else? Or especially if they think that their experience is common, that, you know, everybody's gone through this. Why? Why would I have something new to say? But the truth is that no one has lived the experience exactly like you have, and no one has seen it through this very unique lens of your perspective. And sometimes the most moving stories aren't the ones that are novel to us, where we can't relate, but it's the ones where we see ourselves and we suddenly go, God, that just takes shame away from me. Or I feel less alone. I feel more connected. I get it. Yeah, she gets me. So it's not that you have to have you this wild life to have something to write about, but no one can observe it exactly the way you have. So your story, everyone has a story that is absolutely worthy of sharing it. So if you have that desire in your heart to do it, there is 100% a reader out there who's going to benefit from reading your story. And I love telling authors. Think about your favorite book, the one that made the biggest impact on your life, and then imagine, what if that author had said, nah, who cares what I have to say? I mean, how devastating would that be? And, you know, it really does take a certain amount of courage to put yourself out there and be vulnerable and share your thoughts and ideas. And it's also really Generous because you're. You're creating something and sharing it with somebody that that might be the one thing that they have read. Even if they've read 10 other books on the topic, your words can be the one that. Ones that hit home and land and make an impact on them in a way that nothing else can. So I really. If you have that inkling. Inkling and a little desire to write, I just encourage you to do it. Even if you don't think you're going to do it perfectly, it doesn't matter.

Nicole Kahlil (39:29)

Yeah, as if perfectly was even an available option to any of us. Right.

Michelle Savage (39:33)

No.

Nicole Kahlil (39:33)

Michelle, thank you. Excellent advice. And I know people are going to want to learn more. So Michelle's publishing house website is sulitpress.com that's s u l I t press.com we'll put it in show notes. And she has a free workbook on the website that's procrastination to publication and it's a writing exercise. So go to SeweletPress.com for that free workbook. And Michelle, thank you, thank you, thank you for being our guest today.

Michelle Savage (39:58)

Thank you for having me, Nicole.

Nicole Kahlil (40:00)

My absolute pleasure. All right, and there you have it, friend. The truth about writing a book. It's messy, it's hard, and it's worth checking off your bucket list. But here's the thing. Just like in life, writing a book doesn't have to be a solo journey. Writing in community with the support of other women, leveraging their insights, their connections, and their wisdom, that's not just a great approach to writing a book. It's often the smartest way to move through life. Because when women come together, we amplify each other's voices and create something bigger than ourselves. So let's stop waiting and start writing. Whether it's one word, one chapter, or one big leap of faith, every step you take moves you closer to getting that dream off your bucket list and onto a bookshelf. Writing your story, sharing your truth, using your voice. That, my friend, is definitely woman's work.

T-Mobile Advertiser (40:57)

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Bombas Advertiser (41:13)

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Netcredit Advertiser (41:45)

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Tremphya Advertiser (42:15)

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Opill Advertiser (43:01)

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