← This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
Joan Lunden on Reinvention, Leadership & Life Beyond the Script | 392
00:44:03
Joan Lunden shares powerful lessons on women’s leadership, career reinvention, pay equity, caregiving advocacy, and aging beyond expectations — proving that your most meaningful work can begin at any stage of life.
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- [00:01]
Hunter Clark Fields
This episode is brought to you by Peloton Break through the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus, powered by Peloton iq. With real time guidance and endless ways to move, you can personalize your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your goals in less time. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go. Explore the new peloton cross training Tread plus@onepelaton.com what do you do when your toddler melts down or your teen shuts down? I want to introduce you to the Mindful Mama Podcast. I'm Hunter Clark Fields, author of Raising Good Humans and your host for the past 10 years. I used to be a yelling, overwhelmed mom until I found mindfulness and practical parenting tools that changed everything. Each week I bring you honest conversations and expert advice to help you regulate your emotions, manage your kids behavior with compassion, and break the cycle of reactive parenting. Whether you're raising toddlers or teens, you'll strategies for conscious parenting, screen time, ADHD and more. Listen to the Mindful Mama Podcast wherever you get your podcasts because you can raise kind, confident kids without losing your cool.
- [01:12]
Nicole Khalil
If you love the show, the best way to keep it going is simple. Share it, rate it, and support the sponsors who support us. I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast, where together we're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing Woman's Work in the world today with you as the decider. And today we're talking about what happens when you choose a life that doesn't follow the script that you were handed. You know, the script that says this is your lane, you should stay in it or Congratulations, you've arrived. Now don't get greedy and ask for more or your best years are behind you. You better behave accordingly. Hard pass to all of that?
- [02:04]
Joan Lunden
No.
- [02:04]
Nicole Khalil
This episode is about opting out of the pressure to follow that script. It's about trusting yourself enough to make choices that aren't always logical, likable or comfortable but are right for you. And it's about remembering that no one gets to decide when your growth ends, when your ambition expires, or or when your story is complete. Not an industry, not a culture obsessed with youth, not even the version of you that once believed that your script was fixed and final. Because reinvention isn't a phase, it's a practice. And it's available to all of us at every age, in every season. So today's Conversation is about choosing yourself again and again, even when staying put would be easier. And there's no better teacher than somebody who's done it publicly and repeatedly. We are joined by the one and only Joan Lunden, award winning journalist, bestselling author, longtime Good Morning America co host, and one of the most trusted voices in American homes. For the last 50 years, Joan has built, left, rebuilt, and redefined success more times than most people are probably brave enough to even try once. From breaking barriers in broadcast journalism to redefining motherhood on her own terms, to becoming a fierce advocate for women's health, caregiving and aging, she is living proof that life beyond the script isn't just possible, it's powerful. Her new memoir, Life beyond the Script, is a reflection on reinvention, resilience, and the truth that no one else gets to decide when your most meaningful work begins. Joan, it is an absolute honor to have you on the show. And I want to start with a moment in your life where the script was pretty clear and you chose something different. You found out that you were pregnant on the same day that you were offered the Good Morning America role at a time when working moms weren't very visible on television. And so when there was no good roadmap, how did you figure out what to do and what worked for you?
- [04:08]
Joan Lunden
It was the late 1970s. I was a reporter at Eyewitness News in New York City and, you know, had been married a couple years and I'd been kind of working, you know, in Good Morning America as a fill in host and as a reporter. And I got this call. I was in my little news cubby and my typewriter, that's a giveaway to how old you are.
- [04:31]
Nicole Khalil
Thank you for the visual.
- [04:32]
Joan Lunden
And I got my phone rang and it was my agent. And he said, I just got a call from abc. They're offering you the job as co host of Good Morning America. And it was like, oh my God, but I can't talk to you now. I gotta finish my script. I'm on in like 15 minutes. But before the show started, the phone rang again and it was my gynecologist. Congratulations. You are pregnant with your first child. And, you know, I guess back then I was expected to think, oh man, bad timing. And it never even occurred to me to think that I just figured I'd have to figure out how I was going to do it. And that's what I did. I delivered on the 4th of July and went back to work on August 28th. So my baby was seven weeks old. And I remember calling my agent saying, I'm going to be breastfeeding and I want to bring my baby with me to work. And he was like silent on the other end of the phone. I mean, it was like saying, can I bring my dog to work? Or something. It was so bizarre. And I mean, by the way, in 1979 you couldn't say the word breastfeeding on television. That was one of those words you couldn't say. And you know, I said, I need you to go in and ask the executives. Well, ABC wanted my tush in that seat so badly because, you know, David Hartman in the previous co hosts had not really gotten along well, kind of been icy in that studio. And a morning audience feels that, you know, you want congeniality at 7am when they're eating their breakfast. So they really wanted me back. And they said yes. I think they just said yes because they just felt they had no other choice. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when my agent called and said, can she bring her baby because she's breastfeeding? And it was going to be supposedly the best kept secret. So the first day I came in with my baby and after the show, they set up all these chairs in the studio and they invited all the press, you know, all the women's magazines and the Washington Post and the New York Times and Time and Newsweek and David Hartman brought me in and introduced me and said, this is our new co host, Joan London. And I said, hello. And I opened it up to questions and. And they had taken me aside right before I walked out. Whatever you do, don't say anything about having a baby upstairs. I said, I won't, I won't, I won't. First question, Time magazine. We hear you have a baby here with you. How did you get ABC to allow you to do that? And I like, look at all these executives standing at the back of the room and there's like no way you can't answer the question. And I said, well, I was able to get ABC to give me permission, permission to bring my child to work with me. Second question. Newsweek magazine, this show travels the world. What are you going to do? And I had to say, ABC gave me permission to take my baby with me. And I took her with me a year later to the wedding of Prince Charles to Lady Diana. She was just a year old. And you know what? It never really interfered, to be really honest, Nicole. I mean, I would finish the show, I'd go to my office, I had another crib in the office I used to joke that this baby has more beds than Conrad Hilton. I mean, so I'd take her to the office and when I'd have to get on the phone for an interview with like Ladies Home Journal, we would either like start up the little swing, which back in those days you'd have to like wind it up so it would like swing for like 15 minutes, or my assistant would take the baby, take Jamie out and like walk her around so I could do an interview. And, and I wasn't sure whether my colleagues would really actually be so willing to accept this, but they did. And I think the reason why, Nicole, is that I never really let it interfere. I mean, there was one morning, I guess I can tell this story here, when I was interviewing, I don't know, some senator about, oh, President Reagan's trickle down economic theory. And all of a sudden I experienced inflation and trickle down. Obviously Jamie was ready to be fed and thankfully I was wearing like a, like a print silk blouse, so you didn't see anything. And my hairdresser like ran into the studio during the commercial with a hair dryer and like, like blue dried me off and like the show went on. Like you just, that's what you have to do. And I can roll with the punches and I never, I always showed up, I always was ready. And you know, I think that that's the lesson I try to give young women, is that when you get this wonderful baby news that it's not always so wonderful for your boss who now has to kind of figure out what they're going to do, like go in and say, I have wonderful news, but I understand it's going to affect the office as well. Let's figure out how we're going to do this together and not just like lay it on them, you know, but understand you need to figure it out together. I think that's kind of a, a mistake that a lot of women make.
- [09:46]
Nicole Khalil
In there. You talk about what so many women do, which is just figure it out, right? Like we kind of have to a lot of the times. And yet you really did blaze a trail for so many of us in that. And using that as an example, though, I know there are many, many examples. When you look back with the benefit of hindsight, what do you feel was harder to navigate? The logistics or the expectations?
- [10:12]
Joan Lunden
I, I think to be perfectly the logistics I figured out. I, I, I love it that you describe your show as, I think a, a get shit done warriors show. I love that. I mean like, I I had my master calendar and that I just, you know, whatever. Whatever was on my plate, I just got it all done. Because that's what we women do, and it's. And men don't have to do that. I mean, I think we should all recognize that we have a different. We have to deal with everything. Men don't get up in the morning and think, I have to go to the job today. But also, did I get the ice skates and did I get the hockey stick and did I do this? And do I need to go to the grocery store before I come home tonight to cook dinner? I mean, like, we have to have our brains thinking of so many things at once. But I think probably the thing that I was that I felt the most pressure about is that over time, I felt like I was kind of put on this pedestal of, like, the perfect working mother. And that carried a pressure with it, which just. I don't know, that wasn't always comfortable. But I just had to kind of live that role. I mean, to be very honest, I mean, when it was the most uncomfortable was when I realized my marriage had to come to an end. And I knew it had to. And a lot of America didn't want to accept that because I was like, the perfect working mom, the perfect American working mom. And that wasn't supposed to happen to me. And so, you know, sometimes it's just so hard when you feel like you've let people down because you aren't living up to that role that they expect of you.
- [11:51]
Nicole Khalil
I guess I didn't really think about. Well, you know, we have so many expectations, societal, the ones we place on ourselves, family, what have you. But that's a really good point. When you are a trailblazer, where you are an example, one of the expectations is that you have it all figured out or you're doing it perfectly and that's nobody's.
- [12:10]
Joan Lunden
I'll give you another one. I'll give you another one. How about, you're on tv, so you should always look thin.
- [12:17]
Nicole Khalil
Yeah, right.
- [12:18]
Joan Lunden
Forget the fact that you're having babies. I remember coming back after my third baby, and I felt a lot of pressure to come back just because the ratings was start. It was a ratings period that was starting. So I came back and I just had a cesarean. And I came back and I remember the executive vice president, like, was following me as I was going back after the show, and he said, have you got plans to start your workout? Get back in shape, Tone. I wanted to turn around and say, okay, so like maybe I should just go home and wait another month or two until I've lost all the weight and then come back. But I'm here. And by the way, I didn't really go back and lose all the weight within that one or two months because, you know, I was on this like ridiculous 3:30am every day for 20 years. And that's just such a hard schedule when you're, I mean, and I had little kids and then I had teenagers like try to go to bed before 10 o' clock at night. Like I was dealing with four, five hours, maybe sometimes six hours. And like after 20 years, you know, people expected me, this is the other expectation, of course, everyone expected me to like pop up on some other big national show immediately. And like I was exhausted and I, I don't know, I mean, I stepped back and I had several other opportunities and I didn't really step up to the plate and take them. And you. To be very honest, I've been writing this book for about six years and I've stopped a couple times. I started it and I stopped because I got breast cancer and then I wrote a book about breast cancer. And then I was involved in so many women's health campaigns that I had this urge to write a book about women's health. So I wrote my last book, why Did I Come into this Room? A Candid Conversation About Aging. And then I sat back down to write this book. And I'm glad that it took me so long because I think that at this point in my life I could kind of look at the whole arc of my life and career and I could give credence and the right respect to the 25 years after GMA to understand that I didn't have to top GMA with another TV program, that the advocacy work that I've done and the books that I've written and the campaigns that I've been on and the legislation that I've worked on in Congress and testifying before the FDA on all the different things for women's health. That to me is as self fulfilling as those 20 years as a broadcaster. Even though people, everywhere I go, people say, oh, are you enjoying retirement? Because they don't see me on TV every day. And my husband always says, please just tell him yes, do not try to stop and tell them all the projects you're doing now. But it took until now, I think, for me to give myself permission to be okay with the fact that all the things I've done since GMA were different. They weren't another, another big show like. And by the way, I've done 10 shows since GMA, ironically. 10 TV shows. Yeah, but none of them were on every day so that people see you every day. So people don't know that. So they all think that you're, I don't know, home doing jigsaw puzzles or something. I don't know.
- [15:51]
Nicole Khalil
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- [18:07]
Various Advertisers/Promotional Voices
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- [18:30]
Nicole Khalil
the book is incredible and it's.
- [18:32]
Joan Lunden
Thank you.
- [18:33]
Nicole Khalil
Filled with insights and lessons and takeaways. And one of the things I love especially are your chapter titles. There is one earlier chapter about, I think your teen years that's titled Go Ahead, Underestimate Me, that'll be fun. And that seems to be a theme throughout your life, whether it comes to trusting your gut, standing up for yourself, pushing back, talk to us about what it means and the lived experience of thinking that way. Like, sure, underestimate me. That'll be fun for you.
- [19:07]
Joan Lunden
Certainly. When I was younger, I mean, I graduated from high school when I was 16. I was, I've just always been that push ahead kind of person. I mean really from the get go from grammar school. And I was always like in the class ahead. And then I got into high school and I wanted to graduate early. I skipped my junior year. The principal did everything he could to stand in my way and I never could understand that. Like, why wouldn't he applaud me? And maybe if I was a guy, maybe an, an athlete, a football player, they would have like encouraged me. But I was like a girl going against, I guess, the norm. And I had taken all these correspondence courses from UC Berkeley, so I was getting my credits in a different way than going into the regular classroom. I added them up and I was ready to graduate. And you know, and I just. So I was kind of always like pushing forward and pushing forward. And I don't know how to tell you what it was in me that did that. But my mom of course was like, I wanted to go to college. I think I applied to what, UCLA and Stanford and Berkeley. And my mom said, you're 16 and it's 1967. I think that was what they called the year of love or something hippie. She said, you're not going to a college campus. So she found out about this thing called World Campus afloat today, it's called semester at 6. And sent me on a ship around the world. All of her friends said, are you crazy? You sent your 16 year old around the world. But quite honestly, there was a lot more oversight on this ship. And it also, like my mom always used the phrase, I want to help broaden your horizons. And she did. Like, I saw the world. I saw how people lived in other countries. And it Just changed my view of the world. And I think it really probably kind of maybe led me to that path of becoming a news journalist.
- [21:12]
Nicole Khalil
Yeah. And one part of your book, you talk about how you always wore an earpiece on Good Morning America, but your producer never had to feed you a question, and you talked about it, but they never did. Fascinated.
- [21:23]
Joan Lunden
They just never, never, never, never did people think that they're feeding you questions.
- [21:29]
Nicole Khalil
Uh, well, and you. You said, you know, you have a commitment to be fascinated. And that really resonated with me. Curiosity, fas. I'm guessing that stemmed from experiencing all these different perspectives and cultures and things like that. But I guess my question is, how does being fascinated or curious play a part in your reinventions?
- [21:54]
Joan Lunden
Well, when you're trying to decide, what am I going to do next? You have to decide, like, what out there could I really get excited about? And to me, I mean, look, I'm a doctor's kid who always thought I was going to be a doctor. Right before I went away to college, I worked in a hospital. Found it very quickly. That isn't happening. I'm not a stitches and scalpels and blood girl. It's not happening. And so I. But I always had this little kind of nagging thing at the back of my mind that I. My dad was killed in our. In our family private plane when I was 13. And I always had this feeling I didn't live up to that legacy that I was supposed to live up to. And so I think I've always been pursuing since I left gma, a way to kind of live up to that legacy. And you'll see, every show I did was about health. Every book I wrote was about health. And, you know, when I was diagnosed with cancer, I mean, within 24 hours, I was like, wow, I just got handed a gift. I can go out and learn everything possible about breast cancer, and I have a platform and I can help other women who are facing this. So, I mean, there. That fascination of being able to do that has to exist in order to give you the impetus and the oomph and the drive to go out and do it. And I think I've just kind of always had that burning inside of me.
- [23:28]
Nicole Khalil
Yeah. I want to talk quite a bit about your advocacy work, but before I do, I think one of the hardest parts for many women choosing their own path is dealing with everybody else's opinions, from public scrutiny to outright lies. Commentary on every aspect of your life, including your looks and your choices. Unsolicited vice, casual cruelty. I think You've experienced it all.
- [23:53]
Joan Lunden
Oh, yeah.
- [23:54]
Nicole Khalil
My question is how. Like, how do you maneuver through all of the noise and stay focused on what really matters?
- [24:04]
Joan Lunden
Look, I mean, people could say they don't read any of it, and they'd be lying. I mean, and you could say, you know, you're thick skin and it doesn't hurt, but it does. You know, unfortunately, I had libel lawyers on speed dial, and I fought the worst of the worst stuff that was said. Some of it's not worth spending money on. I spent a ton of money on protecting myself with libel lawyers, and, believe it or not, with lawyers protecting me from stalkers and guys in prison who've obsessed over you. I mean, people don't realize that kind of, like, dark side of celebrity, but it does exist. And, you know, I touched on it a little bit in the book. Cause I thought you just can't write about all the great stuff. Because actually, people, like, see all the great stuff, but, you know, you want to tell the whole story. And there are times, though, I will say, if I'm, like, being truly honest sometimes when somebody would write about something, you know, that I had gained weight or something, it is sometimes a little driving impetus to say, all right, Joan, like, come on. Like, get yourself in gear. Like, do something about this. So there are times where maybe it was a catalyst to get my butt in gear and do something about it. But it is. It's a lot of noise. And I gotta tell you something. I was really in the public eye in a big way when the world was very different than it is today. I can't even imagine. You know, I was at a book party last night for Susan Lucci's new book. She came out with her memoir. It's coming out actually next Tuesday. And I was standing talking with Gayle King, and we were, like, commiserating over the morning hours and what it's like and the expectations of us and just the noise. And I said, I gotta tell you, we didn't have laptops. Charlie Gibson and I never had laptops in front of us. We couldn't fact check someone who was coming on in five minutes. We couldn't Google someone. They couldn't send us an email overnight to tell us about something. They had to send us by messenger, packets of research that we would read. And I said, you guys, people are responding to you in real time. And I said, I just can't even imagine what that's like. I said, I'm so glad that I was in your position when I was in that position. And she was like, really? I said, yeah, really. I really think that you have a lot more to contend with in today's world. Not to mention, like, we. We did everything in our power never to give our opinion. We had two people with absolutely opposing views, and we were interviewing them or moderating a debate. Our goal at the end of that was that you at home would not know what our opinion was because we weren't there to give our opinion. And a lot of people miss that, by the way I hear it day in and day out on my social media that they missed those days. I said, and now you're expected to give your opinion. And. And I said, that's hard because then, you know you're going to have half the audience upset with you, and. And you just get all that noise, all that feedback all the time. I said, truly, I can't even imagine what it must be like.
- [27:35]
Nicole Khalil
Yeah, I do miss the idea of journalism being a neutral. Let me provide you information. I do crave that a little bit more in today's day and age. And don't even get me started on the cesspool that is social media. That adds a whole new element to everything. I want to talk about your advocacy work, but one of the things that jumped out at me in your book is you kind of tackled pay equity before it was a big thing. You got creative in negotiating your contract by proposing primetime specials. You were told, you know, like, not to be one of those women with egos. You had to put out being called a co host. Oh, yeah, Talk to us about how you find the chutzpah or whatever to stand up for yourself, knowing that you're going to be facing other people's opinions and obstacles and all of that.
- [28:31]
Joan Lunden
When I first went to Good Morning America, I had to be interviewed by David Hartman's agent in order to get the job. I mean, I don't know people at home understand just how ludicrous that is, but. But it's pretty bizarre. And the first question he asked me was, would you be willing to change your hair color? Like, I don't know what I expected as the first question, but it certainly wasn't that. And I was like, why? Can I just ask why you would ask me that question? He said, well, we just don't want you to look too young, because that might make David look too old. I was like, okay, well, if the producers thought that my hair color somehow didn't play well on the air, I guess I would entertain a discussion with them. And the second question is I want to know that you're willing to be second banana. You will be Ed McMahon to Johnny Carson. That's what you will be on this show. And I was like, look, I understand what I will be, but it's still one of the best jobs in television, and I'm here willing to take it. But I do expect that over time, I'll have an opportunity to grow. And when they sent me in my first couple days there, a bio to approve. At the top of the bio, it said, joan London in studio interviewer. And I called up the PR people and I said, well, shouldn't it say co host? And they said, well, David Hartman's contract says that no other person on the show can be called a co host. I said, well, then take out that in studio interviewer and just put my name at the top. Because every. Every interview I go on, they're gonna call me out on that. And I don't wanna have to keep explaining it. I don't wanna be put in the position of having to always defend the position that you guys here at ABC are gonna put me in. So then over to, by the way, Barbara Walters came on the show not too long after I started, and I got the interview. It was like, oh, my God. So intimidating to interview her. And she took me aside during the commercial break and she said, I'm gonna warn you, do not try to fight for equality around here. It's not that time yet. She said, not just on this show, just in our country, in the world. It's just that time is not here yet. Just take every small assignment they will give you and make those shine. And if you do that, your role will grow. And that's what I did. And she was right, and it did. And building up like that, that is what got me to the place. And that I could go in and ask for more. But even when I went in to negotiate the contract you're talking about, I knew I couldn't ask for equal pay on the show because they still weren't ready to do that. But I figured out that if I asked them for some primetime specials and them to pay me for those primetime specials, I could come up to a price that was pretty much equal to what David Hartman was making without it going against what it said in his contract. And interestingly, before I left that room, actually, it was my agent that was there. And I said, by the way, when you're in there, could you just ask them at what point can they please just call me a co host? And he did ask the question. And they said, in about four months we can call her co hosts. And that's what told me in that moment that they were letting David Hartman go. I didn't say anything because it hadn't been announced, but I realized at the time that they were going to make a change. And soon after that they told me. And then they started having me co host with a different guy every week while they were looking for someone new. And I wanted Charlie Gibson. I thought he'd be perfect. And he knew that I really rooted for him. And something that he just told me recently that I had. This is the first time I'm going to say this. When we were at the 50th anniversary and we went out to dinner the night before, he said, I'm going to tell you something. Remember that first day when I came in to move into the office? I said, yeah, I remember. He said, the executives pulled me in and said, you need to establish yourself as the alpha male immediately. You have to let the audience and everybody, the studio, Joe, know that you are in charge. You're the alpha male. And he said, I think you guys are wrong. I don't think that's what the American audience wants. He said, and then I came into your office. I said, is that when you came into my office and sat down across my desk and said, let's do this show 50 50? He said, yep, because that's the part of the story I knew. He walked in and said, let's do this show 50 50. Let's show America a man and a woman can do a show as equals. And that's what we did. And that's why our ratings grew. But can you imagine that they were going to keep it. They were going to keep it going on with the next male host. But thank God Charlie didn't let that happen.
- [33:44]
Various Advertisers/Promotional Voices
I saw this app.
- [33:46]
Joan Lunden
I got a hit.
- [33:47]
Various Advertisers/Promotional Voices
In the new Limited Series DTF St. Louis, Jason Bateman, David Harbour and Linda Cardellini star as three suburbanites who spice up their love lives.
- [33:54]
Joan Lunden
Wow.
- [33:55]
Various Advertisers/Promotional Voices
Don't miss the new HBO Original Limited Series, DTF St. Louis. Sundays at 9 on HBO Max.
- [34:00]
Nicole Khalil
LifeLock.
- [34:01]
Various Advertisers/Promotional Voices
How can I help?
- [34:01]
Hunter Clark Fields
The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't.
- [34:04]
Various Advertisers/Promotional Voices
One in four tax paying Americans has paid the price of identity fraud.
- [34:08]
Hunter Clark Fields
What do I do?
- [34:08]
Joan Lunden
My refund, though. I'm freaking out.
- [34:10]
Nicole Khalil
Don't worry, I can fix this.
- [34:12]
Various Advertisers/Promotional Voices
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- [34:17]
Joan Lunden
I'm so relieved.
- [34:18]
Nicole Khalil
No problem. I'LL be with you every step of the way.
- [34:20]
Various Advertisers/Promotional Voices
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- [34:30]
Nicole Khalil
Yeah, well, good for him. And there are a couple good lessons in that story about getting creative for whatever it is that you want and asking. I think so often we don't even put it out there. We don't even give ourselves the opportunity to get the yes. So let's talk a little bit about your advocacy work. When you look at all of the causes that you have and are fighting for, from family leave to women's health, what keeps you motivated and how do you decide what's most important?
- [35:01]
Joan Lunden
Well, the good thing about having a platform like GMA for 20 years is that a lot comes to me. My daughter, one of my daughters who's just terrific, ran my company for 12 years and she used to say, the hardest thing about you, mom, is that you do so many things that it's hard to describe you. Like you need to become more focused, but it's hard when so many things come your way. But then I did start really focusing on what really mattered. And what really mattered to me was women and women's health and family health. And I'm very lucky that I can pick and choose all the different campaigns that come my way and I can do them on my schedule, on my time, unlike 20 years of getting up at 3:30 in the morning. And when I've had the opportunity, when I've heard about these opportunities, you see in the book, whenever someone asks if you can do something, just say yes and then go figure out how to do it. That's a page out of Joan London's playbook. And when I hear that I have the opportunity to go to Washington and testify before Congress to try to get the Family and Medical Leave act changed. And in that case, what I was fighting for was so that we could have the same leave for caregivers, for people to do caregiving at the end of life as we give for the beginning of life when women, and now fathers, also get leave from work to take care of newborns. And you know, when I went to the fda, I was adding again to Congress to try to fight for mandatory mammogram reporting. You know, that was because I went and got a 3D mammogram the day I got diagnosed, and I got a clean 3D mammogram and I walked across the hall and got an ultrasound that found my cancer. And the only reason why I got that ultrasound Is that I had been sent on an interview to interview Dr. Susan Love. And I told her, I'm one of those women that's out there in the lobby and they're calling me in for more pictures. And that, like, freaks you out. And I would always say, why, did you see something bad? And they always said the same thing. No, no, no, no. You just have such dense breasts, it's hard to see anything. And with that, Dr. Love said, well, Joan, if you have dense breasts, you need more than a mammogram. You need to have an ancillary test. And I marched back into my gynecologist and said, Dr. Love says I need an ultrasound. Write me that script. And he did. And I got that ultrasound that day. Otherwise, quite honestly, I'm not even sure I'd be here talking to you today. Because I had triple negative. That's a very aggressive, fast growing cancer. But because I did that interview and I found that out and I asked for the ancillary test. And I gotta tell you, I never knew that when those nurses were saying you have dense breasts, I didn't know that was a thing. I didn't know that that masked cancer. I didn't know that that raised your risk of breast cancer. And it, I mean, once I found that out, and I found out that I'm a journalist, I'm the one that's been asking questions for years that I could be so, I don't know, in the dark about something so important. I mean, it just sent me out on absolute mission for the next couple years that I had to go out. There was nothing that could stop me from going out. And I must have done, I don't know how many breast cancer luncheons in the next five years. And I'll tell you, I would do these breast cancer luncheons. And I would say, how many of you in this room of 300 or 500 know what your breast density is? And like, six women maybe would raise their hand. So it was a really important mission to go on. Really important. And now, you know, things have changed. I mean, we got that legislation through. It took us six years, but we got it passed. And it just went into effect. One, not even a year. It just went into effect this last September. So now when you go and you get a mammogram, they have to tell you if you have dense breasts. And so women know whether they need an ancillary test. You know, the reason why they fought so hard is they know that it's like a domino. The next day Domino, of course, is that the insurance should pay for it and that. And the insurance lobby was a lot more educated and, you know, financially backed than a bunch of us grassroots women who were going in there trying to, you know, get that legislation passed.
- [39:38]
Nicole Khalil
Well, on behalf of all of us, thank you for doing this very important work. Just a random question out of sheer curiosity. What time do you get up now? You mentioned your 3:30 wake ups before. Now that you can do whatever you want.
- [39:50]
Joan Lunden
I mean, for. I'll tell you after that show, I think I, My husband said, I tore myself out of bed like at 11 o' clock for a long time because it takes a while. I actually went to the doctor after a while and said, is there something wrong with me? He said, no, you're getting over 20 years of sleep deprivation. But these days, I mean, you know, I'm still an early riser. My husband and I get up at 7, 8 o' clock in the morning always, you know, you know, but why don't get up at three anymore, you know, so I'm like a normal person now.
- [40:20]
Nicole Khalil
Awesome. All right, my last question is around something you write about in the preface of your book. And you say, looking back, I sometimes wonder how I pull it off. And the answer was, other strong, capable women.
- [40:32]
Joan Lunden
Yes.
- [40:33]
Nicole Khalil
Talk to us about the importance of community.
- [40:35]
Joan Lunden
Ah, the importance of community and the importance of having other strong women, you know, And I, I list them all as, you know, all these women who were my assistants over the years, who traveled with me, who were, who were in charge of my schedules, who made sure that I was at interviews on times and prepared and, you know, it might seem silly, but that my wardrobe was in the dressing room, that I could get dressed in the morning. All the things that women have to worry about, you know, Charlie Gibson's dressing room was like a big office with a little closet. My dressing room was a big closet with a little desk. Because it's different for women and we just have more we have to figure out and think about. And the women who helped me over the years, interestingly, are my very best friends today. They were so important to me, I could not have done it without all of them. And we get together like once a month for lunch and it's. And it's wonderful. They're like, they're almost like family. And that sisterhood, when I was trying to figure out what I was gonna write for that I thought, who am I? Who do I wanna, you know, I'm not gonna write about my parents. Cause I write about them in the book and what a big impact they had on me. And all of a sudden I thought, oh, my God, I know who I'm going to thank. I know who got me here. It was all those other women who got shit done. All those other women who showed up no matter what and were by my side, who stood beside me and who were my strength and who, when I was taking a lot of heat from the press, who helped keep me centered and balanced and calm and kept my inner peace there so that I could show up and do my job and. And do my interviews and, you know, be cool as a cucumber when I needed to be. I mean, they were just so important to me. So I felt very, very important that I give them credit right off at the beginning of the book.
- [42:49]
Nicole Khalil
I loved that you did that. I feel like it took me a little while to recognize the power of the sisterhood and how having other women is just integral in our lives. So thank you for being here today, for writing the book, for acknowledging the sisterhood listener. You can get the book on Amazon or wherever it is that you buy books. Again, it's called Joan Life beyond the Script. Let's keep our local bookstores in business, by the way.
- [43:17]
Joan Lunden
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [43:19]
Nicole Khalil
All the other ways to find and follow Joan are in show notes. Joan, thank you so much for being here today and for your incredible work and legacy.
- [43:29]
Joan Lunden
I loved this interview. Thank you, Nicole.
- [43:31]
Nicole Khalil
I loved it too. Thank you. All right, here's the deal, friend. Choosing yourself isn't a one time brave decision. It's a series of choices, some loud, some inconvenient, some misunderstood, made over and over again in fidelity to who you are and what you want, not the script that you were handed. And if there's anything that today's conversation reminds us of, it's this. You don't need permission or a perfect plan or a roadmap that already exists. You need curiosity, conviction, and the willingness to keep reinventing when staying the same would be so much easier. Keep choosing yourself. Keep asking better questions. Keep living your life beyond the script, because that is woman's work.
- [44:23]
Various Advertisers/Promotional Voices
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