Jo Rose (4:07)

Still.

Nicole Kahlil (4:08)

So I'd love to start by asking you to just share some tips around how do we meditate? How do we create a Zen mind in our everyday lives?

Jo Rose (4:20)

Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you, Nicole. I'm so happy to be talking about this with you today. I think there is such a misconception around meditation. This is what I've seen in my life, both professionally and personally. To your point, I did not start in meditation. I didn't go to school for meditation. I was like most of the population. I went to a tech institute. I studied business, and then I went right into the working class. And so I think that seeing what was out there and seeing how people were operating and moving through their lives really inspired something within me, and it created this interest in, okay, I want my life to have more meaning. I want my life to be more purposeful, even when I'm doing the most menial tasks. You know, whether you're taking out the garbage in your apartment, whether you're, you know, presenting something in a meeting at work, there are opportunities to do everything with presence, with purpose, and to really let that infuse your relationships with others and with yourself. So I think that one of the biggest myths that we see really, is that you have to be in ideal circumstances when you are sitting down to Meditate, right. We think about meditation as you're sitting on a beach. You know, it's nice and quiet, it's beautiful, there's no distractions around you, your mind is clear and everything is, is perfectly Zen. And that is just not the reality. Right? I mean, that's, that's not the reality. Meditation is more of a mindset in my eyes. I see it as something that you can do in conversations with people. I see it as something that you can do when you're fully engaged in your hobbies, in whatever it might be, just doing it with full presence, full awareness, and not letting your mind take you to the past, take you to the future, take you elsewhere other than where you are. And I find that when we approach anything with that mindset, we end up feeling more purposeful in every single thing that we do.

Nicole Kahlil (6:32)

Okay. There are so many important things that you said, but what really spoke to me is this idea of you didn't say this, but the way I took it is I have the opportunity to be present to meditate in a variety of different circumstances, in a variety of different ways. It doesn't need to look one way in this kind of honing in on. I'm just going to call it a quieting of the mind, a presence, an awareness, a being where your feet are as a much more approachable and frankly, probably helpful approach to being Zen or meditating. So thank you for that. Could you give us some examples of ways that you are able to quiet your mind, be present in some of these more day to day moments?

Jo Rose (7:27)

Yeah, absolutely. And I'll, I'll share with you a story. This is actually perfectly timed as well. I was on a flight down to New York where recently, and I was sitting next to this woman and we started talking about business, we started talking about my business. And I kind of shared with her that I was in the meditation, the mindset space and she said to me what I've heard so many people say, and she said, I just can't meditate. I just, it's just not for me. It just doesn't work for me. And she said, I just don't have the quiet, I don't have the time for it. And I'm just listening to her and I'm really, really listening to her while she's sharing this with me. And she says, so what, what about you? Like, how do you meditate? Like, you know, are you probably like super, super Zen? She literally said those exact words. And I said to her, no, I said, I'm meditating right now. And she looked at me and she's like, what? She's like, this girl's crazy. And I was like, I'm. I'm meditating right now in this conversation. She's. What do you mean, like. Because right now, my presence, my. My focus is on you, and I'm entirely present. So I'm actively listening to you. I'm not thinking about what I'm going to say. I'm not turning your words into a story of my own. I'm just very. I'm so focused in on what you're saying. I'm entirely listening to you. Right? There's turbulence. There's people moving about the cabin. There's things that are happening, right? But I am sitting there entirely focused on you. That, to me, is a meditative act, right? That to me is. You're so in the moment and focused. And it is something that we have to actively choose, right? Because when you're talking to somebody, think about it. How many times have you been in a conversation, somebody is speaking, and you're already thinking, you know, oh, this is. This relates to this or this relates to that, or I have to make sure I say this, or do I look okay or do I sound weird? We overthink everything. And so it takes us away from. From the moment, from the. From the presence, from the experience of what is actually happening. And so I think that that is a form of meditation in anything. Again, in conversations, in, you know, if you're creating something or doing something, you're not judging yourself. You're not creating a story. You're not, you know, becoming entangled in something that is not the present moment. And so I don't believe in quieting the mind. The mind is. Is made to think. That's what we've been doing for centuries, right? Since the dawn of time, realistically. And the brain is never just going to stop thinking. And I think that when we allow ourselves to believe that, okay, my. My mind is meant to think, right? That's what it's trained to do. That immediately takes off the pressure. So then it turns into just being aware. Okay? My mind is taking me elsewhere in this conversation, okay? I'm focusing on something else in this dynamic. Let's bring it back. And you bring it back, and you bring it back, and you bring it back as many times as you need to until over time, it becomes just a way of being. So I think that it's. It's. It's a practice, right? And that's where I turn it into It's a lifestyle, it's a practice. It's in everything that you do.

Nicole Kahlil (10:40)

Okay, again, so many things resonating with me because. And I'm just going to challenge you, the listener right now. How many times did your mind wander? How many times did you think about what you do or don't do, or what you have done or have to do, or whether or not you're compare or whatever? Because I know as I was listening, the practice, well, there's an element of like, okay, what am I going to ask next? What you know, what's resonant? But the practice of being present, the practice of being fully aware of what's going on. And I just love this. And I've heard people say that when they talk about meditating, even when they're talking about like sitting silently in a room, it's like just bringing it back, noticing where did my thought go? Bring it back to the present. But I, I'm so grateful you said our brains are made to think. Because I think that's an element of where I've often felt like, oh, I give up, I'm doing it wrong because it's always, it's always going somewhere. So I'm going to throw out a couple examples. I'm curious your thoughts on them.

Jo Rose (11:44)

Yeah.

Nicole Kahlil (11:45)

I have found oddly, and I am not a runner, I hate running. I often say I only run when something's chasing me. And yet when I let go of any expectation about how far I'm running or how fast I'm running or how long any of those things, when I go for a walk or when I go for a run, I have found often that that to me ends up being one of the more meditative experiences. I kind of lose myself a little bit. And like I am very present, I'm very in the moment and often I have what feels like really important thoughts or an awareness or like a light bulb moment. Is any of this, I don't want to turn it into an outcome thing. But this awareness, this light bulb, is that part of meditating? Is that the point of meditating? Is there some expectation we should have or hope to have or should we be letting all of that go?

Jo Rose (12:43)

You know, we are outcome based people, right? We always want to make sense of everything. We always want, you know, to, to gain something out of something. That's just, that's how we are. Right? And I think that from what I've seen in my practice and in my life, sometimes the most fulfilling experiences that I've had, the most life changing Experiences were when I had no expectations from the other person, from the situation, from whatever it was. When we have an expectation or we are trying to force an outcome, that takes us out of the moment, right? Because it immediately puts us into. I want this to go a certain way. So I'm trying to kind of puppeteer the moment, right? I'm trying to control the moment. So you're not letting things be exactly as they are. So what you're doing really is you're taking yourself out of the present moment. So expectations and, and, you know, wanting something to go a certain way, it really comes back to wanting control. And so the opposite of control, right, is when you're in flow state, is when you're just being. And when you are just being, that is often when we have those light bulb moments, right? And notice it is not when we're trying to force them, right? It's when we step away and we just let things be as they are. And that's when we have, oh, look at this, this idea just came up, but we're not actively chasing it. So I think that. And it's the exact same for me. I mean, I've had. You can't force creativity, right? You can't force productivity when you just have no gas left in the tank. I've, I've seen that in my own business, like stepping away and doing something completely different and letting your mind just go on its own path. That is often when I get my best ideas and I have my best insights because I'm not looking for them. And I think that when we look and when we chase and when we try to make something out of a moment, that right there, immediately it just takes us away. It takes us away from that flow state. And it's in those flow states where we have those ideas because our mind immediately calms down, whether we realize it or not. When you're just being. When you're running, when you're exercising, when you're painting or you're fully immersed in your, in your hobbies or something that really, really lights you up and pours, you know, the, the right out of you. That is often when we kind of lower our barriers in our mind and then those insights pop up and they're like little surprises. But you weren't, you weren't searching for them. They came when they were ready to appear.

Nicole Kahlil (15:24)

So it's shocking to exactly nobody that I'm trying to control an outcome or a situation. And I know you, the listener can probably relate, but this is really resonating with me. It's almost ironic, right? We are trying to force an outcome, force creativity, force intuition. And what you're saying is to create presence and to allow, right? It's the difference between forcing versus allowing. And that's not to say that when you're just being or when you're allowing, you're gonna get whatever it is that you want. But I do think we increase our possibility or probability versus when we try to force or engineer or control.

Jo Rose (16:09)

Yep, absolutely agree. And I, I think that when we are forcing, right, we, we almost have this underlying fear that if I don't control this, it's not going to happen. If I don't force this, it's not going to go the way that I want. And so the practice of allowing it really is rooted in trusting, trusting, being open to it. And this really comes back to nervous system regulation, right? A lot of us exist in survival mode without even realizing it, right? We're, we're chronically stressed, we're chronically under pressure. And so what happens is our system, our being, it's. It's braced and it's, it's closed off. And so I experienced this in my past relationships specifically. It was like I had to have such control over everything, otherwise it wasn't going to go my way. And that ended very, very poorly for all parties involved, right? It was like you. When you are hyper controlling, it's basically that you don't trust yourself, you don't trust the other person, and you don't trust the situation at hand. So you are under stress, your nervous system is in survival, and you're completely tightened and braced. And right there, you're not open, right? You are. That is the opposite of being open and receptive. And I talk a lot about this, you know, being open and receptive. It comes from a regulated nervous system where you allow things to be as they are. And you know that there's safety in your body, that there's safety in your presence. And if something doesn't go your way, you can regulate yourself through it. It's not going to be the end of the world. We often think, you know, if this situation doesn't go the way that I had planned, I'm gonna collapse, right? If I don't get this job, if I don't get that promotion, if this doesn't work out for me, then, you know, I am going to tank. I'm gonna collapse. It's gonna be like a, you know, falling star, right? You're just going to be completely torn apart. But if you believe, hey, either way it's going to be fine. Either way, everything is meant to to be exactly as it is and we can regulate ourselves through it. If we get rejected, I'm gonna be there to pick myself up. If this doesn't work out, something better is on its way. That mindset, it's more than a mindset. It's a mindset first, but then it's almost a physical reaction afterwards. And then that gets embedded into your nervous system where you truly feel open and receptive. And when you exist in that state, it's a lot easier to let go of control and let go of feeling like you need to have every single step planned and that you need to grasp to the outcomes. And then intuition rises and then opportunities come to you because you're open and receptive and you're not trying to control them out of fear.

Nicole Kahlil (18:58)

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Jo Rose (21:38)

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Jo Rose (22:26)

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Nicole Kahlil (22:34)

Jo I think myself included, we need to rewind and re listen to that multiple times. I mean it was a yes, yes and yes. I define confidence as firm and bold, trust in self. And I often think people think confidence is knowing how to get what you want or that everything works out. And the deepest level of trust is knowing that you'll be okay no matter what, knowing that everything happens for a reason and you are valuable and inherently worthy exactly as you are in this moment. To me that is like the purest, deepest level of trust. And what you just said is so aligned and I think really, truly what we ultimately want. So, okay, we all know what it is to be dysregulated, right? Every single one of us has experienced that. When you were talking about it, it's like my shoulders come up to my ears or like that feeling of bracing being clenched. Talk to us about what feeling regulated. And I can't imagine anybody is regulated a hundred percent of the time, but talk to us about what feeling and being regulated. What does that experience feel like?

Jo Rose (23:47)

Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question. And I would say I talk openly about this with my community as well. You know, I would say I live most of my life in a regulated state, and I've done so by kind of curating a lifestyle and boundaries and routines and things that really, really resonate with my nervous system. And it's been years of this. This type of intentional work that has allowed me to really show up in my life in a regulated way. However, I was. I was not always like that. Right? I mean, prior to even starting a Zen mind. And there's been times in my life, even recently, where I fall into dysregulation. It's. It's natural. Again, circumstances are not always perfect, and our body does respond. But I lived a life prior that was extraordinarily dysregulated. You know, it came out in my relationships and my work and everything, and. And it was. It was really, really difficult. I didn't know why things weren't working out for me. I didn't know why I felt this way. I didn't know why I was having anxiety. I didn't. I didn't understand. And it was really the product of a lifestyle that just wasn't supporting me. So when you think about regulation and what it's like to live in a regulated state. State. It's not just a mindset, right? It's not just a mindset. It's a feeling, and it's a way of being. And it's anchoring your days with routines that support you with those boundaries, with, you know, little things that you are choosing to do that support regulation. When you are regulated, it's just, we take the pressure off. Like, you just realize my life isn't that serious. You know, I'm. I'm running a business and the stakes are high, right? But to be able to do that in a relaxed way where it's like, you know, what if this works out great? If not, like, missed my flight the other day and, you know, Old me would have been freaking out, you know, and, and making a bunch of calls and free. I was like, oh yeah, I missed the flight. Now what? I'm going to sit at the airport and I'm going to go talk to a couple people, you know, and I'm going to wait for the next one. And it's just being able to kind of go with the flow, right? When we're dysregulated, everything is urgent, everything is an emergency, everything is stress inducing. And when you take that pressure off because you are living in a regulated state, everything just becomes a little bit, a little bit lighter. Like you just, you stop taking life so seriously. It's like, if it works, great, if it doesn't, great, you know, back to the drawing board, something better is going to come. And it's not being careless. I think that's the other thing that we have to be, be careful of and mindful of when we talk about this, you know, this idea of detachment. It's not apathy, it's not carelessness. It's really just again, it's, it's trust. It's trust in the process, but also trust in yourself that either way it's going to be okay and we're going to make it through, you know, and you just have this level of it's, everything's going to be fine, everything's going to be okay. It's, it's acceptance for exactly as it is without trying to force things to be a certain way.

Nicole Kahlil (26:50)

I want to hone in on this concept of routines that support you, basically creating an environment in which we live that supports our regulation as opposed to constantly contributing to our dysregulation, which is, I think, the environment most of us live in. I think we live in a society, especially on social media, where we get a lot of like, follow my routine or this routine work. So my question is, how do we begin to discover and identify the routines that would support us as individuals?

Jo Rose (27:24)

Yep. Yeah, it's a really great, great question. I think it's a lot of experimentation. First and foremost, it's knowing yourself, right? If, if you are, let's say, not a morning person, right? Don't force yourself to get up at 5am to meditate. It's, it's not gonna work, right? It's just not gonna work. I was listening to advice from a male entrepreneur and very, very, you know, powerful in this space. And something that he said was, you know, every single day I get up at 5am and I go to bed at 9pm every single day. That's my routine. And I tried to follow it thinking like, oh, maybe that's gonna, you know, optimize my, my productivity within like two or three weeks. I was like, no way. You know, I was, I was just more tired. On one day, I wanted to sleep in, right? Or I had a late night, I was up working late and I needed to put a couple more hours in. And so what happens, I think, is that people, they try these things and then they fall off. And then comes the doubt. I'm not good at this. This isn't meant for me. Whatever. It's not gonna work. And that's what we all do, right? We try something, we think it's gonna work, we try it for a week or two weeks, and then it, we, you know, it doesn't work out. And then we think that it's something, it's a direct hit to our own identity. You know, we can't do this. It's not meant for us. So I think the first thing is really getting to know yourself and being true about who you are. You know, getting, getting real with yourself and doing that self discovery a Met, I realized they don't have that awareness. They're avoiding something, right? And being truthful and vulnerable and authentic with yourself. That is the first step in actually mastering yourself, actually mastering your routines, knowing what works for you. I think that, you know, there's, there's some blanket statements that we can all say, right, we. We shouldn't be eating as much processed foods, right? We shouldn't have as much screen time as we do as, as a society. You know, there's things that we can do that we can replace in our life and that we can curb in a way that supports the greater population for sure. But I think it's all about experimentation. It starts with learning who you are, knowing who you are, being real about who you are, experimenting from that place and also being okay with it not working out. This didn't work out for me. I'm going to try something different, right? And it's just these kind of baby steps that we take in our own life. And then we figure it out. Because I didn't just wake up one day and realize, oh, you know, this is the routine that works for me. I definitely didn't see it on Instagram. I didn't follow someone else's routine. And it's also tough because I don't promote my routine to other people because I don't believe that I have a solution. I don't believe that it's the end all, be all. I just believe that it works for me and my lifestyle right now. That's not to say it'll continue to work six months from now. We just have to stay fluid and honest with ourselves in order to find those routines that actually do fit.

Nicole Kahlil (30:21)

Yeah, I'm going to repeat fluid and honest, because what I'm hearing is that your routines that support you have been cultivated through time and experience and being honest with yourself and trusting yourself and all those things, and whatever routine that you have that keeps you regulated today may not a year from now. And so again, I go back to the word you use. Practice. We think being regulated means that we have eliminated all discomfort. And when you use words like boundaries or when we think about growth or what really matters to us, when we are checking in with what works for us and doesn't, we have to understand that what works for us may still come with certain levels of discomfort. So how do you work through discomfort? Holding a boundary. Communicating a boundary. Trying something that doesn't work and still hold onto being and feeling regulated.

Jo Rose (31:22)

Yeah. Yeah. I think everything that we do, it's. It's almost in devotion, right? Devotion over discipline. That's kind of what. What I've been feeling lately in my life. And it's. What we're choosing is really for our greatest good, right? It's. It's for us to be better for ourselves and for us to be better for the people in our lives, you know, our. Our families, our co workers, our friends. So it's seeing these routines, seeing these choices as something that is really, really enabling you to be the best version of yourself. And when we think about discipline, we think about, I have to do this right? It has to be perfect. I have to do it. And it's almost like a. Like a form of punishment. Sometimes we. We take it as like, you know, I. I have to be at the gym every single morning. But when we. When we kind of rewrite that narrative and we see it as a devotion to you, being your best self again, it takes the pressure off. It turns it into. I don't want to say easier, but it's just something that we can lean into a little bit more. As opposed to doing it out of obligation or pressure or feeling like to be done this way, we allow ourselves to do it because we. We want to do it. I want to be the best person that I can be for my team, for my community, for myself. You know, I want to be that version. So I have to meditate every single Morning. You know that, right? There is a devotion to myself so that I can show up fully for other people. Because if you can't show up for yourself, you can't show up for others around you. So that's why you have to prioritize what it is that is going to truly help you ground and stay centered and aligned and stay regulated. It's far deeper than doing it out of obligation or pressure. And it really does come back to devotion of you being your greatest self.

Nicole Kahlil (33:22)

I'm going to hold onto that. The devotion over discipline that really speaks to me. I think discipline we often beat ourselves up about or we're not enough or whatever, versus is devotion that just is much more inspiring. I'll say that when we think about testing routines that support us for those of us like me, who want to meditate and want to make this part of our routine, but haven't had success in the past because of all the reasons. Right. Any ways or ideas or tips that we can begin to develop this devotion to practice meditating in our day to day lives? Yeah, yeah.

Jo Rose (34:10)

I think, you know, one of the, the first things that I would tell anybody, you know, anybody who is even dabbling in meditation or just trying to, you know, live their life with more presence and purpose is just again, being fully there, right? And we can do that through our senses. We can do that through our five senses, right? So let's say you're, you're washing dishes, you know, and your mind is elsewhere. Okay, bring it back to how does the water feel, right? How does the soap feel? What do you smell? What are you seeing? Look at the colors, look at the textures. It seems really simple, but how often do we actually connect with our five senses, right? And often we have a lot of distractions that are around us, right? We're, we're also listening to music or we're having a conversation or we're thinking about what has to get done tomorrow. You're not here, okay? So I think engaging your senses is one of the first things that you can do in any situation. Another thing that I love to do is we are a society that always, always has our phone. Like they're glued to our hands, right? So we always have something to fill in the blanks. We always have a distraction. Now more than ever, we have something that can take our attention in a millisecond, right? So you're waiting in line, you know, at the grocery store, what do you do? Right? You usually pull out your phone, you're scrolling, you're checking your Emails really quickly. You are waiting at a stoplight, you're on the train, right? You always have the ability to take yourself elsewhere and to distract yourself and to fill that gap. And so let yourself sit in the silence. Let yourself just observe, right? Let yourself start conversations with strangers. Just observe other people. And I think that again, it's so simple, but we have been taken so far away from that. I, I love like when I'm communing, when I'm commuting or when I'm, you know, anywhere that I would naturally want to pull out my phone or even read a book or something, I just sit, I just sit and I watch and I look at people's facial expressions, right? I, I watch body language, I observe what people are wearing. And I'm, I'm not making stories about it in my head. I'm not judging, I'm not, I'm just observing it as it is, you know, and just kind of being there, right? Being there in that. And it sounds a little bit strange especially because we always have a way to distract ourselves. And I think that once we pull away those distractions and we're just left with being, it almost forces us to explore real presence, right? Presence was a lot easier back in the day, right. When we could be fully involved in something without our phones dinging or without, you know, something happening in the background that we absolutely had to tend to right now. So I think distancing ourselves from our phones, right, and from, from media and allowing ourselves to just be in the moment, engage those senses, right? Be in the moment, stop filling every single gap with a distraction. Those are kind of my go to ways that I would anybody on, you know, just how to be more present in anything that you're doing.

Nicole Kahlil (37:25)

Yeah. Joe, I have to thank you for offering up ideas that are very approachable and also something that we can build off of. Like, you know, when people are like, okay, start by setting aside 30 minutes and sit on the floor cross legged. It's like I shut down. All of this feels approachable and yet really important. And I think it allows for us to, to again begin to practice being aware, being present, noticing and bringing back in our day to day lives. And I think when we experience the value of that, then it is something we're going to want to build off of and devote ourselves to. So all of that to say thank you. And I want to make sure our listener knows that another potential way to, to build this is to listen to a Zen mind guided meditations wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. So we're going to put all the links in show notes to Apple, Spotify, YouTube. You can also find more about Jo and her work by going to the website a zenmindglobal.com. you can also find her at A Zen Mind on Instagram. Jo, thank you for being our guest and for again making this so much more approachable than it ever has been for me.

Jo Rose (38:43)

Of course. Thank you so much, Nicole. I think these are really important conversations and, and I think that everybody deserves to live really meaningful, fulfilled lives. And we all have it in ourselves to allow that to happen. It's just making the choice and, and moving through life with that intention. So it was, it was absolute honor to. To speak with you about this today.

Nicole Kahlil (39:04)

It was my pleasure. And I couldn't agree more. So, friend, if your brain says you're doing it all wrong, I want you to answer, yeah, maybe. But at least I'm doing it. Because that's how anything worth doing actually happens. Tiny steps, small actions. One foot in front of the other, noticing and bringing it back. Not perfectly, not all at once. Not with a breakthrough every time. Perfectionism wants to shove you into a tight, cramped, rigid, very noisy box. It wants certainty, guarantees control. It wants you to wait until you can do it flawlessly. But most of what you want, meaningful work, connected relationships, a real sense of purpose, doesn't live in that box. It lives outside of it. Which means if we want to find it, feel it, hear it, we have to get quiet. We get to be present. Because listening, trusting, honoring yourself, all of that is woman's work.

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I don't have time to shop for clothes. I have to buy everything in three

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Workout wear is my only wear. Stitch Fix makes shopping easy. Just show your size, style and budget and your stylist sends personalized looks right to your door. No subscription required, plus free shipping and returns. Oh wow, that was easy. Stitch Fix Online Personal styling for everyone. Take your style quiz today at Stitch Fix. Hi, I'm Cassidy. And I'm April, and together we are fashion historians, friends and co hosts of the History of Fashion, a podcast about why the clothes we wear matter throughout

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history and around the world, from the

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cultural and societal to the personal and often political. With each episode, we explore the multitude of meanings quite literally sewn into the clothes we wear. Please join us in unraveling the hidden histories residing in your closet. New episodes are available on Wednesdays, and our Dressed Classic episodes re air each Friday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you listen to your favorite shows.