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This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
Perfectionist Burnout with Dr. Tiffany Moon | 306
00:31:07
Dr. Tiffany Moon joins Nicole to unpack perfectionist burnout and the high cost of chasing “enough.” This episode is your permission slip to stop overachieving and start choosing joy.
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- [00:01]
Nicole Khalil
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- [04:09]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
Well, I was the quintessential good girl immigrant daughter. You know, the joke in Asian cultures is that your parents give you the option of two careers, doctor or lawyer. And since I didn't much like arguing with people, which is what I thought being a lawyer was, I went the medical route, as you said. I went to college early, graduated at the top of my class, went straight into medical school, graduated at the top of my class, went to arguably the best anesthesiology residency in the country, got married and had two kids by the time I was 30. So basically I lived my life according to a checklist of what I thought would bring me joy. What I other people said, which for my parents and I think many immigrant families, they think, you know, having a job with an insurance plan and a retirement plan is success. And at 30, I kind of was on the path to achieving that. And then at 35, I was like, no, this is not it. Like, this cannot be all. I've worked so hard and I gave up so much. You know, when you go to medical school early, you're always studying. You don't get to go to parties. I, you know, didn't get to do so many things in life and I sacrificed because I believed that there would be a pot of gold waiting for me at the end. And quite simply, there wasn't. And then I had this midlife crisis of like, oh my gosh, I missed out on so much. I didn't stop and smell the flowers and I kind of didn't enjoy the journey because I was so singularly focused on the finish line. And then you get to the finish line, and you're sort of like, is this it? And I don't mean to sound ungrateful, because I had a beautiful life, a job that I loved, a husband, you know, twin girls. But I just, I felt like something was missing. And that's when I started on my joy journey, which included listening to so many podcasts, reading just about every self help book or memoir there was out there trying my hand at reality tv because I thought maybe that would fix all my problems. It did not. And, and just kind of exploring who I was and what, what I wanted to get out of life instead of being this robot that just lived life according to a checklist.
- [06:40]
Nicole Khalil
Okay, so so many things you said are relatable and resonated with me. First, also a child of immigrants, so I can very much relate to that journey and that feeling of pressure. At least that's how I perceived it. And needing to prove myself not just to my family, but for my family. The checking boxes, I think many of us can relate to that. The experience of feeling that we will experience joy when we check the box versus that there is the opportunity to experience joy along the journey and sort of that. Not figuring that out until you've checked a lot of boxes and still aren't experiencing a lot of joy. Okay, so my next question is around signs or triggers or things that we can all be looking out for that you've noticed in your life that you might be on this perfectionist burnout journey. How do we know?
- [07:43]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
I mean, these days I tell my team, if it's not a hell yes, it's a hell no. Because there are just so many competing interests. I mean, if you're a woman who works and has a family, like bravo to you because you're already doing way more than most people. It's just between, you know, having a demanding and stressful job, needing to travel, doing my speaking engagements, and then coming home and trying to be the mom and then get into my feminine energy so that I can be the kind of wife that my husband needs instead of all the masculine energy that I've been running around with all day. It just, I, I, I just feel so spent sometimes that I don't have anything else left to give. So I think one of the signs to look for is like, when somebody asks you to do something, like, are you excited and does it fill your cup or do you kind of dread it and you don't really want to do it? And I think, you know, in my 20s, like, I said yes to everything, and in my 30s, I was sort of like, oh, I'm. I'm busy. And now in my 40s, I'm like, no. Yeah, no is a complete sentence. No, thank you for thinking of me.
- [08:53]
Nicole Khalil
Yeah, couldn't agree more with the. If you're noticing that I have nothing left to give feeling, you've probably reached burnout. Right. If you check in with yourself about opportunities or offerings, how do I feel? I wonder, to asking yourself, I'm curious, Tiffany, if you do this, why am I excited about this opportunity? Because sometimes I get excited about opportunities because I default to how this will look to other people versus how do I feel about this? Like, nobody's ever called me to be on a reality TV show, but I would imagine my first level of interest would be, oh, my gosh, that'd be so cool. I'd have so much exposure, right?
- [09:35]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
Yes.
- [09:36]
Nicole Khalil
But then for me, at some point I'd be like, no, this is not the right opportunity for me, because it's not the right. But there's that sort of initial reaction we often get about how something is going to be perceived by other people. Is that just part of being a perfectionist, do you think?
- [09:53]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
Oh, yes. I think everybody has that. You know, when opportunities are presented to us, it's like, do you really want to do this for me because it brings me joy because it fills my cup, or do I want to do this because it'll look cool to people on Instagram? Like, it's. It's totally that. And. And in some ways, I think when I joined Real Housewives of Dallas, that was a vanity thing that I did because I was like, oh, that's so cool. Like, when's the last time a board certified anesthesiologist got to be on a show like that? You know, I love fashion, skincare, beauty, all those things. That doesn't mean that I'm any less of a doctor when I go to the hospital. So for many reasons, I think I joined the show because it was cool. And I don't often have Bravo TV knocking at my door. But then as I went through the experience, it just caused so much turmoil within myself because I was like, oh, my God, I am all for, like, uplifting women and helping each other rise. And here I am on a show that's basically known for pitting women against each other, and we were tearing each other down. Nobody was building each other up. On my show, we were all like a bucket of crabs trying to be like, nope, you can't get out. Like, I want to hold you back. And it just brought out the worst of me. Do you ever hang around certain people or in certain situations and you don't even like yourself at the end? You're like, oh, those people just bring out the worst in me. You know, you talk bad about other people, gossip, get catty, compete. And it's just like, that is not how I want to be spending my time. So even though in many ways I joined the show because I thought it would be cool, after I got a little bit of what it was really like, when they asked me to come back for another season, that's when I was like, no, thank you.
- [11:44]
Nicole Khalil
Yeah, one was enough, right?
- [11:46]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
Yeah. I mean, same circus, same clowns. No, thank you.
- [11:49]
Nicole Khalil
Yeah. Right. Okay. So obviously. Well, I'm assuming this. I didn't watch the show in full transparency, but I would assume you're with a lot of other perfectionists, maybe.
- [12:02]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
Not my show. I don't think a lot of people on my show are perfectionists. Dallas was a weird franchise. You didn't miss much. Don't watch it.
- [12:11]
Nicole Khalil
Okay. Okay. So then I guess my question is, recovering from perfectionism, to me, feels like a journey. It still rears its ugly head sometimes. It still spikes up. And I'm sure you've interacted with a lot of perfectionists. What advice do you have about how to recover from perfectionism? How to escape the trap a little bit?
- [12:35]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
Yeah, I mean, I write about this, enjoy prescriptions a lot. One of the things is to stop the cycle of comparison, which we all do. You know, you open up your social media and see everybody else out there on vacation celebrating birthdays, anniversaries, milestones, job promotions, and it makes you feel like crap because you're like, well, here I am, like, you know, I haven't washed my hair in three days. I mean, my sweats.
- [13:01]
Nicole Khalil
Right.
- [13:02]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
Like, it's my off day, but I'm still doing stuff around the house. I just. There's no reason to spend 45 minutes, like, blowing out my hair and putting on makeup because no one's really going to see me. And. But you just. You have this cycle of despair. It's called compare and despair. Compare and despair. And it's just not necessary because you have to realize that people only show their greatest hits on social media. Like, I'm terribly guilty of this. Like, I don't post myself on socials when I'm looking terrible, and I've just had a fight with my husband, and my kids are running around like banshees, you know, Like, I do it when I've and glam and I have a cute outfit and I'm on vacation. And so I think, you know, the thing that we all know intuitively is to not compare ourselves to other people, but we still do it all the time. So I just, you know, bring a moment back, enjoy what you're doing and only compare yourself to where you were previously, not to anyone else because you have no idea where they started.
- [14:00]
Nicole Khalil
Yeah, I feel like social media is the worst thing in the world for perfectionists. It is so it easy.
- [14:10]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
I love it and hate it all at the same time. Nicole, seriously.
- [14:14]
Nicole Khalil
No, and I get and I made the decision a couple years to step off of social media and I do not say that it's a good business decision. It just, it's too easy to fall into the comparison trap. It's too easy to feel like shit about yourself or your life or your business or blah, blah. And I just found myself falling into that trap far more frequently than was healthy for me. And what you said is true. People are only posting what they want you to see. And even like in. I've noticed some people trying to be. And I'm just going to put in air quotes, real on social media. And even that is polished up. Even that is like after the fact. Let me tell you about this failure that I had, but I'm going to tell you about it not when I'm going through it or let me tell you about this fight I had with my husband. I'm not talking to you about it when it's happening. I'm talking to you with the benefit of hindsight and what we learned and how we. And I'm going to soften it up and I'm going to.
- [15:09]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
Yeah, it's so heavily produced. I'm like, you were crying. You got in a fight with your husband, but then you decided to take your phone out and take a picture of yourself crying. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's just we're also produced these days and it's like, okay, you and I struggle with social media. You know, I'm in my 40s, I don't know how old you are. We have fully developed frontal lobes. How about my 10 year old girls that are asking for an iPhone because half the kids in their class have one. How about my 21 year old stepdaughter who looks so pretty, so amazing and she's always like, no, don't post that I look ugly. I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, it's just, it's so hard And I think it is harder on girls and women than it is on guys. I think guys on social media are more about like gaming and yeah, they're on socials, checking sports and things like that. But I think women who are very visually focused tend to be harder on ourselves and the comments tend to be harder on us. You know, like, I've been called too fat and too skinny on social media. I'm either wearing not enough makeup or too much makeup. I've been told I look homely. Are you going out in that? And then I've been told, you should cover up more, you're a mom. And I'm just like, like, oh, wow. Like this reminds me of that little, you know, monologue in the Barbie movie where she can't do anything right. And that's how it feels sometimes. So yes, if you're on social media, like, it's fine because I've actually made like really amazing friends on social media and people are like, how did you meet? And I'm like, I liked a video of hers and then we started chatting and now we're actual real life friends. So it's brought me so much. But I think we just have to know where its limitations.
- [16:57]
Nicole Khalil
Have you noticed that the way we use our phones is, shall we say, ironic? Phones are for connection, but we look at them more than we look at each other and that's ironic. So U.S. cellular created U.S. mode to help us reconnect. It helps us use phones a little less. Ironically, a phone company wanting people to use their phones less, that's ironic, right? Let's find US again with US mode from US Cellular. Visit uscellular.com built for us to get started 100%. And to what you're saying earlier about your daughters and stepdaughter, it's heartbreaking. You're right. I'm in my late 40s and I still struggle with it. I can't imagine my 11 year old is starting to say the same thing. And it's like, oh God, I want to protect her from it as much as I can. Okay, so I want to talk about this perfectionist burnout. I sort of joked around in the intro that it made me wonder if I was doing burnout very well. Because that's the perfectionist part of me. Like, I want to do everything right. I want to do everything the best. I know that's not what you mean. Where is perfectionism and burnout overlapping, leading to each other? Where are you seeing that connection basically is my question.
- [18:21]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
I think living a life trying to be perfect, or at least seeming to be perfect led to my burnout because I wasn't doing the things that truly brought me joy. I was doing whatever would make me look the best in front of other people. Mostly my parents, friends, colleagues, the university, my patients, social media, strangers. Like, I just. I wanted to seem perfect to everyone. So in order to do that, I had to do all the things. But that's not what I really wanted to do. I wanted to be silly. I wanted to make silly TikTok dances with my daughters. I love making other people laugh. I love going to comedy shows and watching comedy things on Netflix. So I was like, maybe I could do a standup set one day, you know, But I'm like, I can't do that in the outside world. Like, what if I bomb and people make fun of me? So, you know, the perfectionism led to the burnout. And the burnout led me to starting on my journey to joy and doing things for my own fulfillment instead of what I thought other people wanted me to do.
- [19:31]
Nicole Khalil
Yeah. Again, similar experience. It was I was living my life with the energy of proving and others focused as opposed to what do I want? So in your book Joy Prescriptions, you talk about that process of finding your joy. Can you give us some examples of things that we might be able to do to let go of some of the perfectionism, find some of our joy so we don't end up in burnout as often as I'm sure many of us are?
- [20:04]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
Yeah, I think people underestimate the strength of human connection and laughter. You know, we focus on how many followers we have and all that kind of stuff. But do you have, like, a handful of friends that you can call and tell good things to and bad things to? There are some friends that you don't want to tell good things to because maybe you feel like they're not doing as good as you in life. And it seems like bragging or, you know, they're in the middle of a divorce and you're having such a great vacation with your husband, it almost seems like you're rubbing it in their face or something. When you're not, you just want them to be happy for you. And then there's some people you don't want to tell bad things to because they might hold it and use it against you or not keep it in confidence or it's different. It's weird. Adult friendships are so weird. And I feel like the older I get, the fewer friends I have. Maybe I'm just becoming old and. Ornery But I have five friends, literally five friends that I can call and tell good things, bad things. And if I were in trouble, I know that they would drop everything to come and help me. That is what I hold close to my heart. Not my 2.5 million followers or whatever. Those people don't care about me. They, you know, I mean, not that I don't appreciate my followers, but I don't know them. You know, the people that I hold close to my heart are what gives me joy. And these days I think people are so focused on these, like, superficial relationships and who's following who that they forget to cultivate relationships with the people near and dear to them. Like, I go to dinner with my husband and we'll be talking and I'll look at a table and like everybody at that table is on their phones, but they're not even talking to each other, but they're sitting down for a meal. And I'm just like, oh my God, you guys. Like, what are we doing? What are we doing? People can't have conversations anymore. I mean, I talked about my 21 year old stepdaughter. She has a twin brother. I mean, he could barely hold like a small talk conversation. And I was telling him because he's applying for law school, I was like, you need to be able to like shoot the shit with people. Like small talk networking events, like have a funny story to tell, ask someone what's going on in their life. Like people are losing that skill of just basic human connection because we're so focused on our damn phone all the time.
- [22:23]
Nicole Khalil
Yeah.
- [22:24]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
And then laughter, you know, I, I feel good when I laugh. It releases dopamine, serotonin, and sometimes if you can forget all the shit that's going on about politics and religion and wars and society and all this stuff, if someone says something and you laugh together, it feels unifying. For one moment in time, we laughed at the same thing. And therefore maybe we're more alike than we are different. And we can put aside our differences and just, you know, embrace each other for the human connection that we have.
- [23:01]
Nicole Khalil
Tiffany I think those are the two best possible answers. Connection and laughter. Almost the antidotes to perfectionism and to burnout. Especially because in my research I found that I think the desire when we are perfectionists is we want to please others, we want to check the boxes, we want to create a life of happiness. But our perfectionism actually creates distance in our relationships. People think they need to be perfect in order to be in relationship with us. And so it Creates this distance. And it's almost contrary to what you're saying, which is really the desire, I think beneath all of this is connection. We want to feel connected to people. We're wired for connection as humans. And I couldn't agree more. As an adult woman, it gets harder. You have different friends for different reasons. You have your kids, friends, parents that you can hang out with. You have your old friends from high school or elementary school. You've got your work friends. There's so many different friends. But to your point, knowing who to go to for what, also making sure you have people for the good times and the bad times I think is so important. Out of curiosity, where does like hobbies or doing things for yourself or self care, where do those fall into finding joy? Or do they?
- [24:30]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
I mean, they do now. Five years ago they didn't. I was like, hobbies, the sleeping count. That's my hobby, sleeping. How about that? And I was so cranky. I remember reading a book, you know, and. And it was like, if you had all the time and all the money in the world for the next one week, like, what would you do? And I was like, oh, I would go rent a hotel room and bring my dog and sleep. And I was like, oh no, something is terribly wrong with my life. Like, I just wanted to be left alone. Nobody talked to me, nobody need anything from me. Don't page me, don't call me, don't text me, don't DM me. Like I just wanted to be left alone. And I was like, I have done something terribly in my life, that this is where I am. And that's when I started focusing on connection and self care. I mean, I'll be honest with you, I used to think that self care was the term that women or men used when like, they couldn't cut it, you know, because I was a soldier, I was going to get shit done. Like I don't need dainty self care. And then I freaking burned out and wanted to like burn everything down. And I was like, maybe I should have invested in self care earlier. Yeah, and I don't mean like that superficial self care, like, oh girl, like you just need to go get a massage. Like you just need to go on a yoga retreat. It's going to cure your whole life. No, the real self care comes from setting boundaries around your time, your peace, your person, Letting people know those boundaries, enforcing those boundaries and creating the space in life for you to be the full expression of yourself without having to dim your light or, you know, not be you and that work, my friend, took like five years. This was not like a light switch. And all of a sudden I'm like, oh, I have self care. I feel so much better. No, this. I'm still, like, needing to reexamine my boundaries, reinforce them, you know, reevaluate. Like, it's. It's always a work in progress, 100%.
- [26:40]
Nicole Khalil
What you were saying reminds me of a quote, and I forget whose quote it is, but it said something to the effect of the best self care is creating a life that you don't feel like you need to regularly escape from. And that popped in my head when you were talking because I think so many women can relate to this feeling of like, I just want to be left alone. I want to go away. And you're right, that probably is a pretty big red flag. I mean, all of us want to go on vacation sometimes. But when we're talking about, like, wanting to disappear from our lives and from our people, that's a little concerning.
- [27:15]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
Yeah.
- [27:15]
Nicole Khalil
How do we as women shift the narrative around perfectionism and create healthier, more authentic definitions of happiness and success so that we're not all running around checking 1 million boxes, thinking it's going to bring us joy?
- [27:34]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
I think it's just a cultural shift away from needing to do more and achieve more into being present and authentic, practicing gratitude and focusing on real connection. I mean, I know that sounds like a fluff answer, but when you really break it down, like, the things that were causing me to feel so distant from other people, when all I wanted was just some real human connection and people I could call real friends, is because I was trying to be so perfect. That's why what you said was so insightful to me. Because, you know, when I got down to it with some of my friends, they were like, oh, when I met you at first, you know, they came up to me after a speaking thing or at a networking thing, and they were like, I didn't really like you. And I was like, oh. Like, yeah. You just seemed kind of, like, unapproachable or bitchy. And I was like, bitchy? How was I bitchy? They're like, I don't know. You just had this, like, aura of, like, I'm better than you. I do all these things. These are all my companies. And I was like, oh, okay. What. What I think it was is I was always leading with my achievements. Like, look at. You know, I went to school early. These are all the accolades I have. These are all the awards I've won. This is, you know, all my businesses or whatever, instead of leading with myself. Like, hi, I'm Tiffany. I really love puppies and walks on the beach and Netflix comedy specials like, the raunchier the better. Ali Wong is my favorite. Like, I have to, like, cross my legs because I'll, like, be myself because, you know, we flatter and all. So, yeah, it was just this intentional shift away from leading with my achievements to leading with, like, who I am and really reaching out to people to build those connections.
- [29:28]
Nicole Khalil
Yeah. And this fundamental belief that we are still worthy of connection and fun and relationships without all the achievements, that we wouldn't do anything. But I'm saying if nobody knew what our achievements are, that you're still worthy. You're still a great person. I think the fear sometimes that perfectionists have or that I have is, who am I and am I worthwhile without my achievements? And that's maybe a little bit of the tendency to lead with them is to be like, look, I'm. I'm an amazing human. Let me prove it to you.
- [30:05]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
Yes, that. That hits so close to home, because growing up the way I did in my family, I didn't really learn that I was worthy just by being myself or by being creative or by being curious. I learned that I was worthy when I achieved stuff. And so my whole young adult and early life, I just. I kept thinking that if I achieve more, then I'll feel worthy. And, I mean, I've been going to therapy for almost a decade now, and that took a lot of deep work to. Because you can't. Someone can't hand your worth to you. Like, it has to come from within. And I had to do so much work to figure out, you know, what really makes me feel worthy so that I can show up as myself and not as my achievements. I mean, that took a decade.
- [30:57]
Nicole Khalil
Yeah. Hard work, but worth doing for all of us because we are inherently worthy. Right. We are inherently valuable, or we wouldn't be here. And, yes, we have purpose and things that we can do and things that we can accomplish, but getting to that, we create our value and our confidence internally first was a huge shift in perspective for me too. So, Tiffany, thank you for doing the work, for encouraging us to find our joy and let go of some of our perfectionism, and for writing this book again. The book is called Joy Prescriptions, and you can go to joyprescriptions.com to find out more about the book and about Tiffany and her work. I'll also just quickly say, if you're interested in the lead her summit. It's coming up in Dallas in November. Tiffany, where would they go to find.
- [31:48]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
You can go to our website, which is just leadhersummit. Com. We have a recap video from last year and information about how you can register for this year.
- [31:57]
Nicole Khalil
Incredible. All right, Tiffany, thank you so much.
- [32:00]
Dr. Tiffany Moon
Thank you, Nicole.
- [32:01]
Nicole Khalil
Okay, friend, I'm just going to put this out there. Burnout isn't proof of how hardworking or dedicated we are. It's proof that we've been sold and bought into a lie. The lie that says that if we just do everything right, if we just push a little harder, we'll finally earn our way to peace, success, or whatever version of enough that we're chasing. But perfectionism is a moving target, and burnout is what happens when we run ourselves into the ground trying to hit it. The good news, we don't have to play this game anymore. We can choose something different. Instead of perfectionism, we can choose confidence. Instead of burnout, we can choose boundaries. Instead of chasing some impossible standard, we can trust that who we are right now is already enough. So let's stop aiming for flawless and start embracing uncertainty. Not having all the answers, letting go of control and of proving ourselves, and maybe hardest of all, not giving a damn about what everyone else thinks. Because that choosing to live fully and even a little messy, all of that is woman's work.