Podcast Host 1 (2:12)

We are deciding what matters and what doesn't, what to say yes to and what to walk away from, what to do next, or whether or not it's time to stop doing the thing that

Nicole Kahlil (2:23)

you're doing right now.

Podcast Host 1 (2:25)

And that's where it can get tricky, because knowing when it's time to pivot is hard. What feels obvious from the outside looking in or crystal Clear, with the benefit of hindsight can be a total mind when you're in it. We've been raised on don't quit, push through, never give up. And we celebrate grit like it's a moral virtue. And yes, resilience does matter. Effort matters, but so does discernment. And sometimes the bravest, smartest move isn't doubling down. It's walking away from something that's draining you, shrinking you, or simply isn't meant for you. And the problem is, when you're in it, it's incredibly hard to tell the difference between staying the course and staying stuck. That line between commitment and self betrayal can get real blurry real fast. And let's address the other extreme, too. Pivoting can become its own form of avoidance. Change for the sake of change, motion without meaning. So how do we find that sweet spot where we're not quitting too soon, but also not staying too long? That's what we're unpacking today.

Nicole Kahlil (3:38)

And our guest is Melissa Gonzalez, a

Podcast Host 1 (3:40)

leader in experiential design and retail strategy.

Nicole Kahlil (3:44)

She's a principal at MG2 and a

Podcast Host 1 (3:46)

shareholder at Collier's Engineering and Design. And she began her career on Wall street before pivoting into entrepreneurship and founding the Lioness Group. She's the author of the Purpose Pivot, How Dynamic Leaders Put Vulnerability and Intuition into Action, where she explores intuition, burnout, energy, and what it really looks like to pivot with purpose instead of panic.

Nicole Kahlil (4:11)

Melissa, welcome to the show.

Podcast Host 1 (4:13)

And I'm thinking that the best place

Nicole Kahlil (4:15)

to start is with the most obvious and probably most important question, which is

Podcast Host 1 (4:19)

how do we know when it's time to pivot? Oof.

Melissa Gonzalez (4:24)

I think, honestly, first of all, thank you so much for having me. And I think your body tells you, you know, and I think this leans into the power of intuition, but really being open to those messages that your intuition's telling you. So for me, that the pivots I've made, it's always been bit of just mental awareness, but also these feelings of either uneasiness, you feel unsettled, you feel a little jittery. There's just something in your body telling you, like, this might not be it, you know, and. And you see, feel this natural gravitation to other things that maybe are the first bridge just for some exploration so that you could then gut check to see is this moment in time, you know, is this something that really is a hobby? Is this something that's a bigger change I need to make?

Nicole Kahlil (5:17)

Yeah. So I couldn't agree more. Intuition that Our body knows, like, kind

Podcast Host 1 (5:24)

of reading the signs, for lack of a better term.

Nicole Kahlil (5:27)

But, you know, the internal signs are energy in our body. And also I think what we consciously pay attention to is sometimes an unconscious telling of something. Having said that, I will say I

Podcast Host 1 (5:41)

find it really difficult sometimes to distinguish

Nicole Kahlil (5:44)

between, you know, fear and excitement or something being uncomfortable because it's new versus uncomfortable because it's not meant for me.

Podcast Host 1 (5:54)

Can you give us some examples or

Nicole Kahlil (5:57)

some tips about how to distinguish it when it feels really important and also really messy?

Melissa Gonzalez (6:03)

Sure, yeah. I ask myself those questions too, right? Am I hesitating because of discomfort? Is it, you know, and so I think you can always. You can also do that investigation on your own to just ask some of those basic questions, like, why am I having this feeling? And is this something I've seen before? Because there is a difference. Right. I also write in the book about ptsd, which is a very real thing also. So sometimes things trigger you to be like, I can't do that again, because you're making this association with something might not have happened in the past. And it doesn't make. Doesn't mean it's always the accurate association that it. That you should be making. So I think the first thing is really just having the openness to allow those feelings to recognize them and then do a healthy level of challenging the why am I feeling those things? And within that, you can learn a lot, I think. Has this been seen before? Have I done that? Is it, Is it the unknown? What about the unknown? Is something. Does this serve me? And I think the more you understand your purpose, which is how I landed on the title, it becomes the guiding light for a lot of those answers. The more clarity you have on what drives you, your overall, that. Why, you know, Simon Sinek's talked about that forever. But when you understand, like, why you do your job, not just that you do it, not just the title of it, but what about it excites you? What about it energizes you? All of those things, whether it's in your personal life, whether it's in your professional life, the clearer you are about those things, then the easier it is for you to answer the question, like, why am I having hesitation? Maybe you're having hesitation because it's not serving that purpose. And so you're, you're. You're starting to have that rejection of, okay, this is busyness, not impact, or this is desire, not obligation, you know, or this is just the wrong thing. But it's that clarity that I think helps you cut through the noise and help have more clarity as you're going through that decision journey.

Nicole Kahlil (8:06)

Okay, so you used the word earlier exploration and as you were talking through all of that, that word kept popping up for me. I think sometimes we think of a pivot as a moment or we focus on the final decision as opposed to, as you're inviting us to do, to think of it as an exploration, a process, a purposeful decision making process type thing.

Melissa Gonzalez (8:33)

Yeah.

Podcast Host 1 (8:34)

And so what I'm hearing is there

Nicole Kahlil (8:35)

are a lot of steps that can be taken before the pivot.

Melissa Gonzalez (8:38)

Sure, yeah.

Podcast Host 1 (8:39)

Many of them internal.

Nicole Kahlil (8:41)

As you talked about, are there any external steps that we should consider? You know, like conversations to be had, opinions to be leveraged? Because again, I go back to, I always use the expression in coaching it's hard to read the label from inside the bottle.

Podcast Host 1 (8:59)

And that's often how it feels when

Nicole Kahlil (9:01)

we're in this decision pivot stage. Right. Where it's like we're in it and sometimes it's hard to see clearly. So external resources can be helpful, but then not pivoting too far and putting your decision in somebody else's hands.

Melissa Gonzalez (9:14)

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a couple of aspects to that. One, community. And two, the bat, the dance between growth and shedding as you're evolving along the way. And I do talk about it as a process because I do think that if you, if you put this hard line moment in time, like sometimes it is time to make that big switch. Right. Like sometimes you've built it up long enough. Like we said, no, we're not going to use foul language, so s, or get off the pot kind of statement.

Nicole Kahlil (9:39)

Right.

Melissa Gonzalez (9:40)

Like sometimes it's time to leap, sometimes it is. Right, but just like a diet, for example. Right. I want to be healthier, I want to lose weight, whatever. We don't just like flip a switch tomorrow. I no longer eat anything unhealthy and I'm going to have a perfect body. Like it doesn't happen overnight, although we wish it would. And this is, you know, no different. In many ways it is, it is a process. Life is an evolution. Are the variables that impact that evolve where you're at in your life stage evolves. So maybe if you look at it, it's one year time horizon versus a five year time horizon, for example, then you could really understand how it's a process to your point of, you know, if you make it a singular journey, it could be really challenging to get there. Right. And so in the book pivot could be 25 degrees, it could be 180 degrees at the end of the day. It's a pivot in mindset above all and kind of understanding like what you're making space for, what you're prioritizing, what you're challenging, what you're letting go of. And community is a really important aspect of that because it is going to sometimes need that partnership from others, that support from others to be able to continue on that path. Right, because you're going to have self doubt, you're going to have normal things that come up. Because change isn't easy, change could be scary. Change naturally has friction to it and not everybody's going to serve the same role in that. And some people are not going to be good in supporting your change. So it's also stepping back and saying, okay, like what does my community look like? There's different groups of people. Who's my 911 circle, who are my cheerleaders, who are my healthy challengers. And this way, you know, also know when to go with them. Like sometimes you just need your hype person. I just have certain friends. I call up and I'm like, I just need that pep talk right now. And then I get off the phone with them, I'm like, yes, I could do anything, you know, and there's other times where I'm like, where are my blind spots? And maybe I'm gonna talk to somebody different. So recognizing that, I think not every friendship or relationship is going to have the same dynamic. And then the second thing is you are going to have to evolve along the way. So you're probably going to have to shed some things in order to make space for other things. And that's a healthy thing too. It doesn't mean that those things in your life up until that stage didn't serve a great purpose. It doesn't mean you can't honor those things. It doesn't mean you're being a mean person. It just you're in a different place. And maybe those, whether it's objects that you have in your life that allow you to make space, obligations, friendships, whatever, beliefs, there's a whole, you know, varying degree of what you could shed and the space that it opens up for you. But having an open minded to that and knowing it's not a loss, it's just, it's helping to make new space is part of the process.

Nicole Kahlil (12:17)

Yeah, I wanna hone in on that. I love that you said that. I think it's so important when we think about pivoting. I Think we often have the tendency to try to make the thing we're pivoting away from bad, as if it would make it easier to pivot as opposed to something doesn't need to be bad or wrong or unhealthy or toxic in order to pivot. It could just be the thing that got you here, but it won't get you there. Whatever that next thing is. It could be something you're incredibly grateful for for that particular stage, but it isn't the best thing for the next stage. I mean, we talk about shedding. I think a lot of times we try to make the thing we're shedding wrong or bad. And what I'm hearing from you is that doesn't need to be the case that we can be grateful for or happy about whatever it is that we are shedding.

Melissa Gonzalez (13:12)

Yeah, it's like. Cause you're in different life stages. Some of that, some of it is unhealthy things you have to let go for sure. But to your point, it's not always that. It's just when you're in college, you have certain needs. When you become a young adult, you have certain needs. When you're 16, single and partying, you have different needs than a new parent. Right. And so you're just going to have to shift in priorities. You might. Shedding might mean I have to like, shed going out to the club three nights a week, like, is. It's just not where I'm at, you know, But I had a really good time doing that. And sometimes it's other things, but I think it's. It's healthier to focus on at a great time with those things. If you did, if they were unhealthy, then it's. That's a different reason you're letting it go. But the decisions you're making are helping you not just be where you are today, but help you get to where you want to go, which is probably a really exciting place if you can have it with the right lens. I think it doesn't feel as. As bad to be able to do that because I think sometimes it comes with levels of guilt or other things that inhibit our ability to shed or let go.

Nicole Kahlil (14:20)

So with some of the more complicated things like relationships or careers as an example, I think one of the things that often comes up is we've put so much time and energy into it. And so the idea of pivoting feels really risky or scary.

Podcast Host 1 (14:36)

And also because in most cases it's

Nicole Kahlil (14:39)

not a hundred percent good or a hundred percent Bad, like we'll have good days or bad days or good times or bad times or good seasons and bad seasons. What do we pay attention to or how do we delineate? I mean, I, it's probably not mathematical, but if it's 60% bad and 40% good, or if it's 70% draining our energy and 30% fueling our energy, like

Podcast Host 1 (15:00)

how are there any, I don't know,

Nicole Kahlil (15:02)

guidelines or suggestions of how we can go through the exploration and evaluation phase a little more effectively?

Melissa Gonzalez (15:11)

Yeah, I think active listening is a good thing. Journaling's an effective way to kind of take stock. There's going to be things you feel in the moment and other things that are patterns. And if it gets to the stage of a pattern, then it's probably at a more significant scale that you should really address that change. Right. Because sometimes it's a one off. There are certain variables, but other things are either bigger issues or just bigger things to take stock of. So that's number one. I think it's the listening and having that ability to assess. And then, you know, I think there's a lot of best practices we have with others that we fail to have with ourselves. That, that's why I wrote a whole chapter about like giving yourself grace. Because we could be our toughest critic with the self talk. We could be the most negative to ourselves versus others. We could judge so easily. And so take a little bit of the, from the playbook of what you would do for a friend or a loved one and others and take that approach to yourself. And that's why too like less judgment, less know that you're not, if you, if you have a thought in the moment and if you check back a week later, a month later, and there's some consistency in that, then that's probably something you should pay attention to and start to think like, okay, what could I do a little bit differently there? And then also recognizing like change takes time. That's. Habits are hard to break. Right. They always say that. And so some of the things that you might need to change are habitual. So it's going to be an effort and celebrate the progress you make in getting there too, I think is a really important part of it because it can easily feel like, well, I'm not being successful at this, but maybe you were successful 25% of the way already and you're not even recognizing that. And so it feels like this humongous hurdle to make change instead of celebrating that micro milestone. What did I learn from that milestone? Like what feels different? What space did that open up for me? The more you recognize those things too, I think the more it gives you motivation to continue on that journey of evolution.

Podcast Host 1 (17:07)

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Nicole Kahlil (19:54)

I love the perspective of thinking about it from the lens of someone else. I do that often, like, what would I want my daughter to do in this situation? Because I tend to be hardest on myself and I tend to want the best for her. And so thinking, like, if somebody I love, admire, or respect were in this situation, what, what would I tell them to do? I think that that can offer some really good perspective. And I love that lens.

Podcast Host 1 (20:20)

Now, whether we pivot or whether we

Nicole Kahlil (20:23)

stay, there are potential costs associated with any decision that we make. Sure, how do we evaluate some of those potential costs, whether it's to pivot or to stay where we are without letting fear run the show?

Melissa Gonzalez (20:41)

So objectivity, right? And I think there's different lenses. So if you were to create a, you know, a goal sheet for yourself or some sort of grid, you know, there's a number of things that you could say, like, if I had a pie of happiness, like, what makes up that pie? Because they're all gonna have different answers. You know, for some people, it's money. Some people it's their growing and learning. Some people, it's their title. Different answers for different people without judging, right? Like, some people are really driven by certain things over others. So I think the first part is really, you need to know what makes you happy. And then you can start to say, okay, well, are the choices I'm making first fueling that? Is it stealing from that? You know, where am I feeling energized? Where am I feeling depleted? You could start journaling that as well. There's a worksheet in the back of the book. It is called the delegation sheet. But the first part of that exercise is, is noticing that in your week and in your month, like, write down all the things that energized you. Where did you get that dopamine fix? Where did you feel, like, really energetic at the end of that day? And then what were the things that depleted you where you just felt like, I can't believe I have to do this again. Everything about it just makes your body feel either stressed or unmotivated and all those things, and start to write those things down, see. See what the patterns are of those things. Some of those things are going to be out of your control and not like, some of the things are going to be things that you could change and not be able to change. So I think if you're in different stages of your career, those things are also going to vary. But right of, like, what you could delegate or what you can simplify. If you're a manager, you could delegate more. If you don't yet have teams, then your execution of that might be just more around simplification. What can you simplify? What can you start to say no to things like that? And so I think at the heart of it, just like anything, you have to know, what do you consider successful? And. And if you can understand those things, then that helps too, with you being able to say, okay, well, it's not. It's not. It's not feeding that pie. So might I do something different? Might. Might I make, like, space for that?

Nicole Kahlil (22:54)

So as you were talking, I was reminded a coach many, many years ago had me do, like, an energy audit, and I had to track everything that I did, like, on my calendar for a few weeks, and if it gave me energy, if it drained my energy, or if it was neutral, and it

Podcast Host 1 (23:09)

was really fascinating to see how much

Nicole Kahlil (23:12)

of my time I was investing in things that drained my energy. And it actually helped create some clarity of what did make me happy and what I did want to be doing. So that happiness pie that you talked about, and I haven't thought about that in a really long time, probably would be worth revisiting now. I know I do this. I have to imagine I'm not the only one.

Podcast Host 1 (23:36)

But sometimes something will be clear to me.

Nicole Kahlil (23:38)

I'll be really clear about what is giving me energy or that it is time to pivot or that I do want to stay.

Podcast Host 1 (23:45)

But the thing that pops up for me that's not on my happiness pie, but it still pops up, is what

Nicole Kahlil (23:51)

will other people think. Any tips for navigating letting go of setting aside this worry about other people's thoughts and opinions about our choices?

Melissa Gonzalez (24:04)

For sure. It's so hard, especially in this world that we live in of social media and, you know, between fomo, which is fueled by constant comparison, right? With just human nature of we care. Right? We care. It's a natural thing to care what others think of us. But I think there's a few filters to that. One, first of all, not everybody external to us should hold the same weight, right? So for sure, a stranger should not hold the same weight as, like, you know, your best friend or a family member, right? So, like, right there, I feel like you can make some differentiation, but the other is. Is the person that theoretically is judging you. Because sometimes we just assume they are, and we don't even. Right. Maybe they would be cheering us on. We don't even know. We're just living that catastrophically.

Nicole Kahlil (24:57)

They don't care and they're not paying attention. Right?

Melissa Gonzalez (24:59)

Like, right.

Nicole Kahlil (24:59)

We are so worried that people will notice or.

Podcast Host 1 (25:04)

Or that will be embarrassed or whatever.

Nicole Kahlil (25:06)

And the reality is everybody's focused on their own shit most of the time, right?

Melissa Gonzalez (25:09)

And if it's good enough, friend, you probably could have the real conversation anyway with them. And if they're the right friend, they'll be supportive or help you see things you don't see. But. So that's number one. And the second is whether they're close to you or a stranger. I mean, are they also a model of what you want to be? Because if they're not, then why does their judgment even matter, too, right? Like, so. So I think, you know, and that's why, too, it's important who you surround yourself with when you want that. That support, whether it's to see your blind spots or tree run. All those things, is also who's been successful on the path that you want to be on, because they're going to bring probably a more relevant perspective to helping you on your journey than somebody who's kind of arbitrarily out there theoretically making judgment.

Nicole Kahlil (26:03)

Kind of a similar question, but maybe just a little bit of a different lens, is what would you say to somebody who, in choosing to pivot, they're worried that they're letting people down or hurting somebody's feelings. So, for example, if you pivot away from a relationship or away from a career, you know, I think a lot of us worry about the people we're, quote, unquote, leaving behind and that we're hurting them in some way or disappointing them in some way. Any tips there?

Melissa Gonzalez (26:35)

Yeah, I mean, I think on average, it's a. It. First of all, it's like the most normal thing, and you're going to walk away from relationships for different reasons. You know, if it's a relationship where there's not a fair give and take. You're walking away from a taker who. It's a. That, that's one reason. Right. Like you're just. This is, this is, this is holding you back from where you need to go. And it might be unintentional that they act that way, but that is the result of the dynamic. And it's, it's the healthiest thing you can do to walk away from it, but doesn't mean you can't be kind about it. I think regardless of the dynamic, there could be a conversation at the end of the day when you can articulate to the other person you care about them, you'll always be rooting them on. Sometimes you have a varying degree of impact that you could have to set them on a healthy path before you pull back. So you can walk away kind of feeling good about that. And I bring that up because if you're at a job that you're leaving, you know, who have you been managing? Have you positioned them for success? Can you walk away knowing, I've been a great mentor and coach to them? You know, I set them up for that promotion. Like they're going to have their growth trajectory. You can feel good about that and. But you can still evolve to where you need to go. So I think it's just having empathy towards it, doing the right thing in that. And sometimes that means difficult conversations, but I think that they help you break away or evolve in a way that you can feel good about in the long run.

Nicole Kahlil (28:05)

Yeah.

Podcast Host 1 (28:06)

What about the person who maybe pivots

Nicole Kahlil (28:09)

too much or too often or becomes addicted to the pivot?

Melissa Gonzalez (28:13)

Yeah.

Nicole Kahlil (28:13)

Any advice for. I think we often think about it from the lens of when to pivot, but any advice for the other side of the pivoting for the sake of pivoting person?

Melissa Gonzalez (28:26)

Yeah. Well, because then you're asking yourself, am I pivoting or am I running? You know, there you go. And those aren't the same thing. And I think I've, over my lifetime, you know, from decade to decade, have a different perspective of that. I think in my 20s it was much easier, right, to do it. I didn't have the same obligations. I didn't have a husband and have a daughter. I didn't have a house. I didn't a lot of things. So it's easier to do that in your. Early in your career. But I think as I've gotten older, I step back and be like, okay, I'm doing this at the sacrifice of what you know, and I'm weighing it out, like if sometimes it's like, are you playing the long game? And I think when you're always, always evolving, that's the question. It's, it's great to be a fast learner. A lot of the startups, right, it's like fail fast. And if you've seen things, I've been here before, this is why it won't work, and all this other stuff, sometimes that's the right thing, other times you're just running and you're not playing the long game. So I think it's really gut checking that before you make any rash decisions.

Nicole Kahlil (29:27)

Okay, my last question is maybe a two parter, but what signals do you think we trust the most? We often hear, like, trust our gut, trust our intuition. How of all of the different signs and signals, are there any that you think we should be paying the most attention to?

Melissa Gonzalez (29:47)

Yeah, I think if you get the jitters, you should check in on that. So that's one. I mean, it's your body's reacting to something and so it's either seen it before, heard it before, whatever. So I think that's one. And I think the more in tune you just are with yourself, it becomes a little bit intuitive to be able to know what to listen to. I've seen this before, I've done that before. This dynamic's happened before. Not in a way that you are allowing yourself to be trapped by elements of ptsd, for example. Right. But more just life experience. And I think the, the more life you live, the more you can kind of connect those dots of how do you have a healthier response to some of the, some of the signals that you're getting. Right.

Nicole Kahlil (30:40)

Okay, my last question is sort of a, for somebody who's listening and they're thinking about pivoting, or there is this gut instinct that there is a pivot in the future. Any recommendations of where to start? Like what do we do to begin this exploration phase?

Melissa Gonzalez (31:01)

Yeah, I think definitely ask yourself. Take stock of how you're feeling. Do the energy check in. I think that's important. And then I think as you think through your pivot, there is an exploration, especially from a professional standpoint. Some of it might be, I need to make space for new hobbies. And some of it's like, I really want this to be my job. And those are not the same thing either. So that's why it is good, I think, to let it be a little bit of a process, like give yourself a time period. Three months, six months, Whatever you think makes sense. And create some milestones and make sure you're checking in at those key milestones. Like, I've tested out X amount of things. How do I feel about that? Is this a hobby? Is this a job? Is this a big change? Is the mindset shift and what I want to get out of, out of life, or what my purpose is can be achieved where I am, but my viewpoint or how I'm spending my time within where I am is going to satisfy that. Or is it a bigger change? Because I think a lot of the times people think pivot means, like, I have to. Everything has to just, I need to cut the cord on everything and I have to change everything. And that's big. That's a big step to take. And sometimes that is the answer. But I do think oftentimes it's not the answer too. So give yourself a timeline. Create milestones, check in with them. Go back to, you know, what are the things that energize me? Is that tied to my purpose? Because I do think that allows you to make a healthier filter through your evaluation process. Yeah.

Nicole Kahlil (32:38)

And I'll add one more thing. Get the book the Purpose Pivot. Right. I. I'm assuming that could be a

Podcast Host 1 (32:44)

really helpful tool for any one of us.

Nicole Kahlil (32:46)

And I'll help guide us through all the things that you just said, Melissa, and. And also this internal and external exploration that we get to go through. So the book, again, is called the Purpose Pivot.

Podcast Host 1 (32:57)

You can also find more about Melissa and all of her work on her

Nicole Kahlil (33:00)

website, melissagonzalez.com and we'll put all the other ways to find and follow Melissa in show notes. Melissa, thank you for this conversation, for helping us navigate through this really hard.

Podcast Host 1 (33:12)

When you're in it, question of, like,

Nicole Kahlil (33:14)

how do I know when it's time to pivot? So I appreciate you. Absolutely.

Melissa Gonzalez (33:17)

Thank you so much for having me.

Nicole Kahlil (33:19)

Oh, my pleasure. Okay, friend.

Podcast Host 1 (33:21)

If there's one thing we hope you walk away with, it's this. Pivoting isn't failure, and staying isn't virtue. Neither is inherently brave or weak or right or wrong. The work is discernment, listening to your energy, paying attention to what is expanding you versus what's costing you, and trusting that your intuition doesn't need to scream to be valid. Sometimes it just nudges repeatedly until you finally listen. And you don't need certainty to pivot. You don't need permission to change your mind, and you don't need to justify your decision to anyone who isn't living

Nicole Kahlil (33:58)

your life, or carrying the consequences of your choices.

Podcast Host 1 (34:01)

Whether you're staying the course, making a small adjustment, or walking away entirely, the

Nicole Kahlil (34:06)

goal isn't to get it right.

Podcast Host 1 (34:08)

The goal is to stay in relationship with yourself as you decide. Because choosing with intention, honoring your energy, and trusting yourself enough to pivot when it's time.

Nicole Kahlil (34:21)

All of that is woman's work.

LifeLock Sponsor (34:30)

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Eczema Treatment Info / Mick Sullivan Promo (35:02)

If there's a child in your life who is interested in, curious about or fascinated by people and places from history, then my podcast the Past and the Curious might just be a hit in your home. From the invention of microscopes to world traveling dogs to fashions of the 1890s, Gold Rush, Ghost towns and audiences going wild for walking competitions, we've got a little bit of it all. Hosted by children's author and museum educator Mick Sullivan, that's me. The show is fun, funny, engaging, honest and beloved by kids and parents alike. Find the past and the curious at all the usual podcast places.