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This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
Powerfully Likeable with Dr. Kate Mason | 364
00:37:17
Power + likeability is not a tightrope, it’s a strategy. Dr. Kate Mason (world-champion debater and executive coach) gives us research-backed tools and scripts to communicate with authority and warmth, from regulating fight/flight/freeze/fawn to ditching over-prep and asking for what we actually need — all while sounding like ourselves.
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- [00:02]
Subaru Announcer
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- [00:29]
Dr. Kate Mason
Welcome to Walgreens. Looking for a holiday gift?
- [00:32]
Walgreens Customer
Sort of. My cousin Freddie showed up to surprise us.
- [00:36]
Dr. Kate Mason
Oh, sounds like a real nice surprise.
- [00:38]
Walgreens Customer
Exactly. So now I have to get him a gift, but I haven't gotten my bonus yet. So if we can make it something really nice but also not break the bank, that'd be perfect.
- [00:46]
Dr. Kate Mason
How about a keurig for 50% off.
- [00:49]
Walgreens Customer
Bingo savings all season? The holiday road is long. We're with you all the way. Walgreens offer valid November 26 through December 27. Exclusions apply.
- [01:09]
Nicole Kahlil
I am Nicole Kahlil and you're listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast.
- [01:12]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
Where together we're redefining what it means.
- [01:15]
Nicole Kahlil
What it looks and feels like to.
- [01:17]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
Be doing woman's work in the world.
- [01:18]
Nicole Kahlil
Today with you as the decider. And on this episode we're going to talk about a concept that feels elusive to so many of us. Being powerful and being liked. I could fill this whole episode with all the ways this feels like a double edged sword. All the times that we've been told directly or indirectly that we have to choose one or the other.
- [01:41]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
All the Cirque du Soleil level tightrope.
- [01:44]
Nicole Kahlil
Walking it takes to try and balance both. All the times I've failed at it in real life. My guess is most of us feel like we lean naturally to one side of that coin. One comes easier, fits our personality, maybe even feels more practiced. And I'm stereotyping here, but I'd bet.
- [02:02]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
A large percentage of women have over.
- [02:04]
Nicole Kahlil
Rotated towards the likable over the powerful. After all, we've been socialized in that direction since birth. But if I'm being fully transparent, I mostly struggle in the opposite way. Power comes easier to me. Two decades in a male dominated world of finance gave me plenty of practice.
- [02:24]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
But here's the thing.
- [02:26]
Nicole Kahlil
Many times it came at the expense of likability. At times it even felt necessary to get ahead. And if I'm being really honest, it.
- [02:35]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
Has also been a bit of a.
- [02:36]
Nicole Kahlil
Protection mechanism for this introvert who doesn't really love meeting new people. And in my darkest, most head trash filled moments I even worry maybe I'm just not all that likable. How's that for a podcast opening?
- [02:50]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
Bet you didn't think you'd be walking.
- [02:52]
Nicole Kahlil
Into my therapy session today, but here we are. So how do we actually find our way between being influential and impactful while also being authentic and well liked? If I had the answers, I would give them to you. Instead, I brought somebody who does. Dr. Kate Mason is an executive communications coach, world champion debater, and author of the new book Powerfully Likable, which Publishers Weekly called a game changer. She works with women leaders at Google.
- [03:22]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
Netflix, Uber, Microsoft and more, helping them.
- [03:25]
Nicole Kahlil
Navigate the tricky act of communicating while female. A veteran of high stakes Silicon Valley roles, Kate coaches leaders to discover versions of power and likability that feel true to them. Kim Scott, author of Radical Candor, one.
- [03:39]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
Of my favorite books, calls Kate's book.
- [03:41]
Nicole Kahlil
Compelling, compassionate, and funny, and I cannot wait to hear her insights.
- [03:45]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
So, Kate, thank you for being our.
- [03:47]
Nicole Kahlil
Guest and possibly my therapist for the day.
- [03:49]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
And I'd love to have you start.
- [03:51]
Nicole Kahlil
By explaining what being powerfully likable means. How is it different from the awkward compromise most of us are living in between? What does this look and feel like powerfully likable?
- [04:04]
Dr. Kate Mason
Thank you so much for having me, Nicole. I'm delighted to be with you. The powerful and likable binary is what I call it, which is exactly what you've articulated so beautifully. This Cirque du Soleil tightrope between these two poles that does feel like this one way choice. You know, once we've chosen one of those doors, the powerful or the likable, it feels like we can't go back to the other. And I certainly felt this in my career and felt like it was an unfair or sort of unacceptable binary to be stuck in. So part of the project of the book is actually unraveling that and saying there are tons of ways between those two poles to be able to show up. But to your question, what does it look like? It actually looks like when we found a calm and comfortable place to communicate from. Because power and likability are both extremely subjective, what is likable to you may be likable or dis unlikable to somebody else. So what we're wanting to do is actually understand where we're already thriving, what our power already is, inhabit that more, and understand how we might want to mitigate anything that's not feeling as strong for us.
- [05:14]
Nicole Kahlil
Okay, I love this version of this because I think sometimes we think powerful looks one way and Likable looks one way. And what I'm hearing, hearing you're saying is there are lots of ways to be both of those things. And it's a little bit around getting connected to our authentic way to be that. Am I hearing you correctly?
- [05:34]
Dr. Kate Mason
Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, I. I think authentic is one of those overused terms at the moment. It's kind of lost a bit of meaning. But I think about where in an individual, where is the place that you're already feeling strong? Is it that you build rapport easily? Is it that you collaborate? Is it that you're empathetic? These are things, for example, that don't necessarily code as leadership traits, but actually make incredibly powerful leaders. You're able to corral a team or motivate the people around you. That's absolutely a leadership quality. So what I think about in communication is instead of you're all doing it wrong, and here are three things you need to do which is seductive but doesn't help everybody. Where are you currently actually powerful? Where do you feel like when you've left an interaction with or a meeting? Oh, that went exactly as I hoped it would. How do we get more of that into your communication? And how do we help you sort of feel buttressed or supported in the areas that were perhaps feeling less good? So that will work. If you are, as you say, somebody who finds likability, the easier door in, well, then we can help you feel like that's actually a strength. And if it's something on the other side that you're feeling, I'm more transactional, maybe by nature, or I get to the point quicker. We can help you find ways of actually amplifying that, such that you're feeling like you're effective and getting good cut through. And persuasion.
- [06:56]
Nicole Kahlil
I liked what you said earlier. Calm and comfortable place to communicate from. I don't know that very many of us are seeing this exampled at a very high level in leadership, either in our organizations or like on a national level. Can we talk a little bit about how we do that when we're talking about something we care a lot about or talking with people we care a lot about? What are some techniques to help us get into that calm and comfortable place so that we can communicate powerfully and likably? Is that even a word?
- [07:32]
Dr. Kate Mason
Let's go with it. I start every coaching session and I start the beginning of my book with an exercise which is to say, tell me both where you feel powerful to you, what that looks like for you, and the conditions that are surrounding that. And what I mean by that is, are you on stage, are you with people you know, are you super prepared? What are the things particular to you that give you a jolt of energy? I have a client at the moment who told me I find myself doing much better when I'm in casual work environments, when I can take a client meeting in a cafe or on a walk, because I feel like I'm showing up less self conscious and more in my zone of excellence. And so for her, she tries to take those first initial prospective client meetings in social places where she feels like she's lit up more and more in her own self. That's an example, I think, of finding a space or a place, and obviously sometimes that has to be the office, but finding a condition that helps amplify or support that communication for her. So it's a very personal journey in a lot of ways. But once we find, actually there are a ton of places I'm doing this well and, and I want to double down on those, it can be a really nice way to actually realize I have a lot of comfort. And when I say calm, it doesn't mean no emotion because emotion is part of, you know, our everyday. But it means I'm unruffled, I am unbothered. I'm bringing a sense of stability or certainty to this interaction. You can't knock me over or blow me over in the wind. Right. I'm bringing my opinion and my, my energy has that nice unruffled sense. And that's. I go through a ton of ways in the book to help regulate and make sure that you're bringing that self, that unruffled self, if you like, to an interaction because it's much more likely to result both in a productive generative discussion, but probably a persuasive one.
- [09:30]
Nicole Kahlil
Right.
- [09:30]
Dr. Kate Mason
And much of what we have to do is influence, and often influence without authority, like formal authority, like a title. So that can be a really powerful lever when you're looking at influence.
- [09:40]
Nicole Kahlil
Especially you mentioned earlier, super prepared as an example. It buzzed out at me because I think as women, one of the things we default to is planning, preparation, what I call overthinking. What are the downsides of over preparation when it comes to communicating or getting into this calm, comfortable place?
- [10:04]
Dr. Kate Mason
Yes, so many. I have a whole chapter actually on preparation. And so one of the things I want to make clear is I'm all for preparation. Preparation is really important and I don't think anyone would disagree with me there. What I find in my female clients particularly is that we over prepare. We've spent our early careers as high achievers who have done everything. We've gone to the mat, right, to get things ready, to make sure we've rehearsed it four or five, 10 times. And at some point in our career that starts to become unsustainable. We have eight big meetings that day, for instance, that we can't prepare to that extent. So one thing is in the book, I talk about a preparation framework that's much more lightweight, that helps you get to where you need to go much more quickly. But to your point about the downsides of preparation, often we can become too reliant or over rotate on the thing that we have prepared. And so we're not as creative, we're not as nimble in the meeting. If somebody else says, actually I was sort of thinking it in a different way, or I had this other idea, we feel like, oh, no. But I've spent, you know, all of last night or all of last week preparing for scenario A. I'm unwilling to let go of it. And that can cause like a lot of discomfort in ourselves. But oftentimes it lets us or it fails to let us be more creative and agile in the moment, which very often is what we need to be. So sometimes that the downside of that preparation can actually be that we don't allow ourselves to show up in the best way we can in that interaction.
- [11:35]
Nicole Kahlil
This completely aligns with my personal experience. I'm a recovering overthinker and I often joke around in my work too. Like, thinking is not a problem, we should all be doing it. It's the over part that is the problem, which is, I think, what you're saying with preparation. I will tell you too, from my personal experience, I found that I actually do my very best work when I'm slightly underprepared because of what you're saying. It allows for flexibility. I'm not so rigid or like I can go with the flow or roll with the punches because I'm not so tightly wound around how it's supposed to go.
- [12:10]
Dr. Kate Mason
Yes, absolutely. When I was a debater, we had 15 minutes to write a 10 minute speech. And if you've ever spoken for 10 minutes, that's quite a long time. And 15 minutes doesn't feel like a long time to prepare for that. But in the book I outline what's a 15 minute framework to break the back of a really gnarly problem or to get ready for something. And the 15 minutes is a little bit of a provocation. If it's 10. If it's 20, it doesn't really matter. But setting a framework or a time bound framework for yourself is one way to think about reducing that preparatory burden, but also allowing yourself to bring your natural energy and inclination. So that's a really helpful way to start. If there are some over preparers listening who think that sounds kind of scary, that's a, it's a nice framework to begin with.
- [12:58]
Nicole Kahlil
Okay, I, I want to go back to this calm, comfortable place. As you were describing it, the words that popped into my brain were maturity and confidence. And I will tell you that as I look back, the times where I over rotated to what I thought was powerful at the sacrifice of likability and the times where I look back and I'm the least proud of how I showed up are those moments where I was like reactive or I was lacking confidence and maturity. I was defensive, I was feeling hot emotionally, like so in those moments when emotions feel high or where you might default to feeling defensive or I know sometimes people, instead of defending, they sort of downplay. I know you have scripts that you talk about in your book. What are some of these scripts that we can employ that have us not get defensive or not downplay, but actually productively and powerfully likably own our communication?
- [14:02]
Dr. Kate Mason
Yeah. So when I say scripts and when you say scripts, it's let's use this exact verbiage. Right. But here are some examples and you can adapt to your own language because that's obviously really important. One of the ways is to think about, I have a chapter on what are the communicative things. Threat responses. So you mentioned being defensive or feeling, you know, antagonized by something. There are four main threat responses that I go through in the book and you probably heard them in pop culture, but I think about them in the communicative sense and they are fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. Right. And these are, I think, relatively well understood in terms of how we refer to them in the culture. But I talk through what are the ways to recognize those own responses in your own communication? Right. If I've noticed an aggressive feeling coming up or a defensiveness that's probably fight. For example, if I notice that I'm minimizing or undercutting myself, like it'll just take a sec, or no worries if not, or all the disclaimers that we can, you know, that we can use, that might be a fawn response.
- [15:09]
Nicole Kahlil
Right.
- [15:09]
Dr. Kate Mason
Making ourselves small in the face of a threat. And part of this is not that any of these are wrong. We have very well developed lizard brains that are pulling the strings on this one. But let's recognize what they are and understand how and when we might want to deploy them to our advantage or how and when we might want to regulate away from those. So that could be like something in a really heated meeting, for example, and you feel like it's not going anywhere. You might be able to say, look, there's a lot of blood going to this right now. I'm going to, let's put a pin in it for now and I'm going to put some time in for us to catch up tomorrow, for example. And that's a really helpful way to say timeout. I just, this is, this is not going the way that we all want to and we all need, we need to come back with fresh eyes. That's a way that I think for a lot of my early career, I didn't know that was an option. Right. That felt like an impossibility. And a lot of this is, if I can show that there are so many different ways, so many different tools in those difficult situations that you have, that can be a very helpful way of just knowing that they're there. The other thing about noticing these threat responses is we can start to recognize them in others. So we can start to realize, oh, this person is exhibiting that type of a response, maybe they're afraid. And that can lead us to asking better questions of them. For example, Nicole, can you tell me, I'm noticing some resistance here or some, some, some reactions from you? Can you tell me what's going on or can you tell, talk me through what's on your mind in terms of this issue? Because I'd love for us to be able to, you know, get really aligned and that can open up a beautiful doorway for you both to have this kind of side conversation to the main conversation, which is, yeah, actually, I'm really worried, or my team has already invested three months in this. You know, I, I feel like you might be taking it away and then you can get very good data and, and at the same time help deescalate that situation together.
- [17:06]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
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- [17:37]
Nicole Kahlil
So much that I'm just gonna do it again.
- [17:40]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
They're made with the softest stretch knit that feels incredible and sleeps cooler than cotton, so they're cozy without the overheating. They're so good, I'm putting them at the top of my list too. And Black Friday has come early at Cozy Earth because right now you can stack my code on woman's work on top of their site Wide sale, giving you up to 40% off in savings. These deals won't last, so start your holiday shopping today and if you get a post purchase survey mention you heard about Cozy Earth on the show, make sure to wrap the ones you love in luxury with Cozy Earth, your Amazon cart or your Sex life one deserves more attention. I mean, be honest, when was the.
- [18:22]
Nicole Kahlil
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Podcast Co-host/Announcer
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- [18:28]
Nicole Kahlil
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- [19:55]
Dr. Kate Mason
Good.
- [19:56]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
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- [20:46]
Nicole Kahlil
You gave a really good example for the fight response, or at least that's how I interpreted it because it's something I employ in my own life a lot because I do have a strong fight response and it's just buying myself some time. And really the intention for me was to not say something that I can't take back and to like let my emotions and feelings calm down and then come back in a more, as you said before, like calm or neutral place. We did just release an episode in the last few months on Fawn. Like the fawn response, I think is probably something maybe more women employ and know the least about. And then I will tell you, I think I also have a freeze response. I can think of that like when I am around typically men who are in a much higher position of power than me.
- [21:37]
Dr. Kate Mason
Yes.
- [21:38]
Nicole Kahlil
That freeze, it's like my brain and my mouth no longer coordinate.
- [21:43]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
So can you help us think through.
- [21:44]
Nicole Kahlil
Maybe a couple of those examples of responses that we could use in those moments?
- [21:51]
Dr. Kate Mason
Yes. So I mean, a fawn response, if you think about it, in the animal kingdom, it's exactly the same. It's a smaller animal knowing that there's a bigger predator. Right. And so it's absolutely like, I'll make myself small, I'll not be a threat, I'll keep my eyes down so they pass me by. Right. And a lot of that is applicable. I find myself often saying, I think we forget in a corporate context that we're actually animals. Right. And the thing that's setting us off is, you know, not a physical, other predator, but, you know, an email from someone called Greg. Right. Like it's a very, very different kind of activation, but it feels the same. It feels as scary or as urgent as if it might be a physical threat. And I think anyone who's ever felt physical body symptoms of nervousness or anxiety or dread in their body knows what I'm talking about here, that it's very, very real. Despite only being maybe, you know, an email or something like that. An example in terms of like what do I do if I freeze or if I fawn. Part of that process is, and this sounds boring, but it's very important is actually noticing when and where it happens. I want everybody who reads the book to have a very clear sense of. For me, in these situations, I tend to be more activated, I tend to dislike it when or conversely, I tend to do really well when. Because mapping that from the outset is what's going to give us our own personal kind of workbook through it. Because I can't give you the panacea for everybody do X. It's very seductive, but it doesn't work right. So mapping that is the first really important part. The second part is to understand what regulates me. So I work with people who say, you know what, I lift really heavy weights because I can't be nervous when I'm doing that because I have to physically exert or I run or I meditate or I do yoga or I sing in the shower. It doesn't matter. It's not a health nut thing, it's a what's going to help my body move out of that response and into a place where I'm feeling good and that can look so different from all of us. I have people who go to the sauna, I have people who swim laps. It doesn't matter the thing, but it's usually some sort of physicality that can help literally ground us to get into a place that feels more human and more natural for us. So I even say, obviously there's not necessarily time to fit in a yoga class before that 11am meeting or whatever it might be. So what's going to be your shortcut to get there? Maybe it's that you've done it that morning. Maybe it's that you've chewed some gum and gone outside and had some fresh air before you come back in. Find something that's becomes your shortcut, a hype song maybe that you can embody and bring into to tap into that type of energy for yourself can be again, it sounds a little woo woo, but it's amazing what it can do. And we can build up then over time and associate that with a really positive sense of oh, this is that self, that authentic self of me that's showing up in the way that I would really like to equip myself.
- [25:03]
Nicole Kahlil
What I'm loving is there is a high level of. I'm just gonna use the word customization or individualization to this. Right. So you gave us two really powerful questions. First, where are you most powerful?
- [25:15]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
Right?
- [25:15]
Nicole Kahlil
Like thinking about you personally, individually, where are the examples of places, spaces, environments, examples that you feel powerful? And then the second question is when am I most activated and preparing, though not over preparing for what am I going to do in those moments? What is going to work for me specifically? You said this and it is really sexy to just be like here's the three step process any one of us can follow. But this isn't that, right? Okay.
- [25:46]
Dr. Kate Mason
No, we love holisticle, you know, 10 ways to get ready for summer and three ways to look good at work. They're very seductive and I totally understand that. But unfortunately communication or fortunately is super complex and it's as you say, it's super custom to all of us. So telling everybody the one thing to do is probably you know, at best not going to work and at worst probably quite dangerous. Right. So I've, I've, I say in the book, this should feel like we've written it together, right. I'm going to give you frameworks and outlines, but you're going to be filling in the dots as to where you fit on that spectrum or where you sit on the map. And that's I think where our own sense of actually power and likability can come together because it is in the way we would like to deploy it and the way we feel comfortable. I'd add to that the worst thing I think you can do in communication, which I did and learned from, is to perform a different Persona that is not you. Right. To step into something else that doesn't. The delta between you and this Persona is quite broad or quite wide because it's very, very exhausting and actually longer term unsustainable. We kind of are feeling this like high degree of self surveillance and performance which dims a lot of our own natural energy. So I would say the more aligned you can be to actually who you are. And I say that as someone who's tried on many of those personae. So as a debater I was hyper masculine, hyper aggressive, very adversarial and in a lot of ways I still have that in me. Right. I'm naturally competitive. I seize 27 problems quickly. I say no fast. But I've learned that that's probably not the best way to collaborate or to work together in an effective way. And my own sense of self is actually someone who's kind of smiley, who I'm fairly warm. And I'll still deploy that same sense of rational or incisiveness that I have taken from debate, for example, but with my own personality and person that's sort of I'm encouraging or provoking in the book, which is what is that part of yourself? And can you actually incorporate it in a way with your true self? If you like, incorporate those superpowers that you might have of being good with numbers or really good at detecting an argument or understanding the implications of something and reconcile that with our own sense of self, such that we're showing up in a way that feels grounded and authentic to other people.
- [28:22]
Nicole Kahlil
I want to reiterate how important this feels because I define confidence as firm and bold trust in self. And it's going to be really hard to trust yourself if you practice your way into the belief of thinking that in order for you to do well, you have to be someone else.
- [28:42]
Dr. Kate Mason
Yes, it's why I hate the fake it till you make it right.
- [28:47]
Nicole Kahlil
Me too. It's semantics, but I've replaced it with choose it until you become it.
- [28:51]
Dr. Kate Mason
Oh, I love that. A hundred percent. Yes.
- [28:54]
Nicole Kahlil
So this is firing a lot of things in my brain. I'm wildly curious about your debate background. I think when people think about debate and communication, it's let me convince you of my point. And I am not by any stretch of the imagination a debater or skilled in that way. I'm curious what you've learned about effective communication and being powerfully likable from being so good at debating that we can carry forward.
- [29:24]
Dr. Kate Mason
Yeah, I think it's choosing your win. So in debate, one of the things that sets it apart, and I admit one of the things I was drawn to, is that you go to the mat for your argument and you'll take no prisoners in doing it right. Everything you say is wrong and everything I say is right. And it's very zero sum. And there's a great intellectual appeal of that to me, which is like, oh, I'm assuming a side. It might not even be a side of me of a topic that I agree with, but for the sake of this performance, I will go to the mat for it. In work, oftentimes we don't necessarily, or we can't or we shouldn't try to say, Here are the 27 reasons you're wrong. Right. It doesn't foster a longer term collaborative relationship in the same way because the debate isn't over in half an hour. Right. You have to work alongside that person. So one of the things I talk about is, or one of the things perhaps I learned best is what is it that I need to convince you of in this meeting? Or what is the win that I need? Is it that I get you to say yes and greenlight everything I'm working on or is it that I need you to start considering that that's an idea I'd like to discuss further next time. Right. And I know that's subtle, but part of what that does is understand how I'm going to deploy my own influence. And persuasion is actually when I'm not trying to hit you over the head with something few people like to be hit over the head. Right. It feels abrasive. It can feel a lot. And I don't mean this is not tone policing, this is being strategic with how you bring someone over to your side of understanding how to see something in your way. So I think we think persuasion means here's my list of grievances or here's my list of why I'm right. And actually sometimes persuasion is tell me more about what you're thinking about that. I'd love to understand how you've gotten there. Tell me what's keeping you up at night. I'd love to understand more about how we can work productively. Or for you, what would someone in my function be excelling at that would help your team? These are types of questions that don't feel powerful on the face of it. They feel smaller. But actually what you're doing is getting very, very important data to be able to come back and shape what you're asking for in terms or in language that that person will resonate with. So if you think, oh, actually I really. They're really worried about metrics, for example. Right. That they're getting pressure from their boss, maybe I'm going to frame up what I'm doing as something that's going to be really critical for the longer term metrics of the project.
- [32:03]
Nicole Kahlil
Right.
- [32:03]
Dr. Kate Mason
That's a vague example. But I'm trying to show that sometimes persuasion comes from better data, better relational quality than it does from like, here's my 27 reasons. And I've learned that absolutely the hard way. But it's fascinating. Once you can open up those doorways to get that data and then have a better understanding of it, it cuts down the time at which you are at loggerheads with someone and more quickly puts you on the same side of the problem. And that's oftentimes what, what influential communication is trying to do.
- [32:37]
Nicole Kahlil
So is part of that understanding the win for you, but also the potential win for the person you're communicating with or the whole. So like, I think, okay, so I think about it like, what's the win for me? What's the win for you? What's the win for the business or the department or the team or whatever? And you might not have those answers going in, but exploring that might be part of this. Yes, absolutely.
- [33:00]
Dr. Kate Mason
So one of the frameworks I walk through is the shared goal framework, which is even your most vitriolic enemy in the business. There's probably something that you share, there's probably something that you both are understanding is a collective North Star for the business. So talking to them in those terms. Right. I know your team is really interested in X. Something that we're trying to do here is I'd love to grab some time with you to talk about how we might be able to align those better or brainstorm even. Right. What some options might be here so that we're, you know, in lockstep together. That can be a way of, in some ways defanging that socialized buildup of like, oh, they don't like me or they, you know, they're out to get me or they're against me. Because suddenly you're actually bringing together a shared goal that you can energize around or that can motivate you together. And we forget that those goals are shared because we, you know, it feels like they're, they're at odds with us sometimes.
- [34:05]
Nicole Kahlil
Absolutely.
- [34:06]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
Okay.
- [34:07]
Nicole Kahlil
You said earlier that you, you didn't say this, I'm saying this that you had a beef with the word authenticity, that it's being overused or oversimplified. And I have that with so many words. I am the self appointed word police because they, I feel like there are such powerful words that are being oversimplified or commercialized or just misinterpreted and in ways that aren't serving us. And we talked already about this is complex. There isn't a three step process that'll have you be an effective communicator in five minutes or less. Like, yes, that sells on social media, but that's not the reality of things. And when something is really communicating complex and challenging and individualized, it can feel hard to figure out where to start. So you gave us A couple good questions, but can you leave us with potentially a simple or powerful shift that we can make or first step that we can take as we begin to move towards effective communication and being powerfully likable?
- [35:12]
Dr. Kate Mason
So I think part of it is what we've already touched on is that sort of inventory. Where do you sit right now? And keeping that in the back of your notebook or in a document that you can find easily that you're actually understanding the patterns that will emerge over time. You might not see a pattern the first time you do that, but over time I promise that they're there. And that will be very illustrative in terms of something you could do like tomorrow or going into a meeting. Something I talk about is imposing syndrome, which is the idea that we're often really afraid to make an ask. So if you have found yourself ever thinking, I couldn't possibly ask that, or they're going to hate me if I. Or no worries if nodding your way through meetings, think about the concerns that are coming up for you. Why are you afraid to make that ask? And then think about how you might be able to ask it in a way that doesn't take your legs out from under you. So instead of I'm not an expert, but something I've been thinking about, you could just say, something I've been thinking about is right, or instead of, It'll just take two seconds. Hey, Nicole, I've put in 30 minutes for us to catch up on this issue. Let me know if that time works for you. Right. So we're just making an ask with a pure intention of getting to a better place together rather than feeling like, oh, my God, this, the sky is falling. You know, that's a pattern I see with so many of the women I coach and something I'm very personally keen on helping them move away from.
- [36:43]
Nicole Kahlil
Well, I can tell you you're speaking directly to me because I don't know that I have personally experienced many moments of imposter syndrome. I have, but not often. Not many. But imposing syndrome, I have that all day. Like, I know exactly what that looks and feels like. And that would be a huge opportunity for me. And then let me just add, if you really are looking for one simple, powerful next step, go get the book Powerfully Likable, available on Amazon or wherever it is you buy books or order it from your local bookstore. Let's keep them in business. And of course, you can go to Kate's website. It's @Katemason.co. we'll put all the links and all the ways to find and follow Kate in show notes.
- [37:26]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
Kate, thank you for both a powerful and likable conversation.
- [37:30]
Nicole Kahlil
This is so important and necessary and I appreciate you doing this work.
- [37:34]
Dr. Kate Mason
Thanks so much for having me, Nicole. It was a pleasure.
- [37:36]
Nicole Kahlil
Pleasure was all mine. All right, friends, we have been taught for so long that power and likability are at odds. That you can have one, but not the other. But I'm saying this for you and for me, that's simply not true. Power doesn't have to mean harsh or arrogant. In fact, it probably doesn't.
- [37:54]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
And likability doesn't have to mean small and self sacrificing. In fact, it probably doesn't bother are.
- [38:00]
Nicole Kahlil
Available to us when we stop twisting ourselves into pretzels to fit someone else's definition and start owning what it feels like to be true and real and right for us.
- [38:12]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
So maybe the question isn't can you.
- [38:15]
Nicole Kahlil
Be powerful and likable at the same time? The question is, what is your version of powerfully likable?
- [38:22]
Podcast Co-host/Announcer
Because when we figure that out, we.
- [38:24]
Nicole Kahlil
Stop walking the tightrope and start changing the rooms that we walk into. And that, my friend, is woman's work.