Same Ask, Different Outcome: The Double Standard in Negotiation with Attia Qureshi | 411

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Same Ask, Different Outcome: The Double Standard in Negotiation"

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil | Episode 411
Guest: Atiya Qureshi | Date: May 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of This Is Woman’s Work features host Nicole Kalil in conversation with negotiation expert Atiya Qureshi, co-author of Never Settle. The episode dives deeply into the persistent double standard faced by women in negotiation, examining why women often experience less successful outcomes than men despite negotiating just as frequently. The discussion moves beyond old stereotypes, offering real, practical strategies for navigating bias and building effective negotiation and persuasion skills in all areas of life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Double Standard: Are Women Worse Negotiators?

• Myth-Busting the "Women Don't Negotiate" Trope
  • "Studies now show that women are negotiating equally, if not more, but we are less successful." — Atiya Qureshi (05:34)
• When women are direct, they're seen as aggressive; when accommodating, not competent.
  • "A man can walk into a room and say, 'this is exactly what I want'...and he's seen as confident. And a woman walks into the room and says it the same way and she’s seen as a bitch." — Atiya Qureshi (06:39)
• The reality isn't that women aren't asking—it's that the same ask produces a different outcome due to entrenched bias.

Peer Bias: The Role of Women in Upholding the Double Standard

• Women sometimes face harsher judgment from other women than from men during negotiations.
  • "Women have always been harder from my perspective on me than men have...there’s a little bit of this internal dialogue within women that make us harder on other...women." — Atiya Qureshi (09:49)
• Nicole and Atiya encourage listeners to be conscious of this phenomenon and to support each other.

Redefining Negotiation & Persuasion (11:35–13:45)

• Negotiation isn't just about salary—it's intertwined in everyday life ("household chores," "who’s picking up the kids").
  • "We are negotiating or influencing dozens of times per day. It’s not just those salary or promotion conversations." — Atiya Qureshi (11:40)
• Influence and persuasion are powerful for long-term success, particularly for women.

The Power of the Internal Negotiation (13:12–15:00)

• Internal self-talk and emotional management are the essential first steps.
  • "The first negotiation that we often don’t think about is the internal negotiation." — Atiya Qureshi (13:15)
• Confidence isn’t innate but built through practice and managing internal doubts and fears of rejection.

Clarifying Interests vs. Positions (15:00–16:55)

• Identifying your true underlying interests (the "why" behind your ask) is crucial.
  • "Just having one specific goal makes you twice as likely to succeed...Stating a demand is a closed door." — Atiya Qureshi (15:09; 15:54)

The "We" Strategy and Gendered Expectations (17:17–18:47)

• Women tend to be more successful when negotiating on behalf of others or aligning their needs with collective benefits.
  • "Women get penalized when they ask for something for themselves...but if you can come up with a reason that touches upon a broader need, that is much more receptive." — Atiya Qureshi (17:30)
• This reinforces the caregiver stereotype, which is problematic but practical to acknowledge.

Building Relationship Capital (22:01–24:29)

• Strong workplace and personal relationships make your asks more likely to succeed.
  • "Make sure that you have a really strong relationship foundation...go take them something small...a kind word can actually be a small gesture that makes people feel better about you." — Atiya Qureshi (22:01)
• Reciprocity is hardwired into humans; helping others authentically builds future support for your needs.

Preparation: Data, Alternatives, and Prepping for "No" (24:33–33:41)

• Do homework: use objective external benchmarks (salary websites, industry standards) and internal data (your contributions) to support your position. Avoid referencing coworkers’ salaries directly.
  • "Data is actually very powerful for women in a negotiation...anchor at the spot that's best for me...justify it with data." — Atiya Qureshi (25:32)
• Pressure-test your case with mentors or via AI to foresee counterarguments (30:06).
• Develop an alternative or BATNA (“Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement”)—but avoid wielding it openly in negotiations as men do; for women, it can backfire unless shared thoughtfully at the end as “disclosure.” (31:13)
• Prepare for rejection—plan for how to turn a "no" into a "not yet" by asking about next steps, required information, and timelines. (33:12–33:41)

Avoiding Over-Preparation and the Importance of Listening (34:12–35:34)

• Preparation builds confidence, but over-preparation can lead to rigidity and word-vomiting instead of listening.
  • "If we’re over-prepared, sometimes we walk into the room and we word vomit it and we don’t give them an opportunity to speak...one of the biggest, most powerful moves you can make in a negotiation is active listening." — Atiya Qureshi (34:34–34:49)
• Active listening uncovers valuable insights and opens paths for negotiation.

Real-Life Example: The Cost of Unmanaged Emotion (36:03–38:39)

• Atiya shares a story of coaching a woman who wanted to confront her boss with anger after her team's lack of recognition. Through reflection and strategic conversation instead of venting, she achieved her actual goal of acknowledgment for her team.
  • "What is it that you actually want as the outcome of that conversation?" — Atiya Qureshi (37:13)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Double Bind (04:02):

  • “We navigate where being direct can cost us and being agreeable can cost us.” — Nicole Kalil

• On Emotional Preparation (13:15):

  • "The first negotiation that we often don’t think about is the internal negotiation." — Atiya Qureshi

• On the Reality of Prejudice (17:30):

  • "We love when women negotiate on behalf of others and women get penalized when they ask for something for themselves." — Atiya Qureshi

• On Networking and Relationship Capital (22:01):

  • "Make sure that you have a really strong relationship foundation with the key people in your life." — Atiya Qureshi

• On Prepping for Rejection (33:12):

  • "What is it that you say if you get a no to make it a not yet?" — Atiya Qureshi

• On Over-Preparation (34:34):

  • "If we’re over-prepared...we word vomit it and we don’t give them an opportunity to speak. One of the biggest...most powerful moves you can make in a negotiation is active listening." — Atiya Qureshi

• On the True Work of Negotiation (40:08):

  • “You are already negotiating all the time. Every time you say yes when you mean no...that's negotiation too. It's just not working in your favor." — Nicole Kalil

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:30–04:23: Debunking the “women don’t negotiate” myth; the real reasons for worse outcomes
• 05:30–06:55: Double bind—women penalized whether assertive or accommodating
• 09:36–10:28: Women as harsher gatekeepers for other women
• 11:35–13:45: Everyday negotiations; influence vs. negotiation
• 13:12–15:00: Importance of internal negotiation and confidence
• 15:00–16:55: Interests vs. positions; framing your ask
• 17:17–18:47: Leveraging the “we” strategy for greater success
• 22:01–24:29: Relationship-building strategies for negotiation success
• 25:32–26:44: Using data—objective benchmarks as sword and shield
• 30:49–33:41: Alternatives, confidence, and prepping for “no”
• 34:34–35:34: Pitfalls of over-preparation; the power of active listening
• 36:03–38:39: Coaching case study: Channeling anger into goal-oriented negotiation
• 40:08–41:02: Final message: Everyday negotiations and refusing to settle

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Practical Takeaways & Action Steps

1. Start with Self-Work: Manage internal dialogue and clarify your true interests.
2. Frame Requests Strategically: Align your needs with wider benefits ("we" strategy).
3. Build Genuine Relationships: Nurture ongoing rapport before you need to negotiate.
4. Do Your Homework: Gather relevant external and internal data to support your case.
5. Practice Active Listening: Stay flexible, ask questions, and paraphrase for clarity.
6. Prepare for Pushback: Have alternatives but disclose wisely; plan for rejection and turn “no” into “not yet”.
7. Avoid Over-Preparation: Be ready, but don’t get so locked in that you can’t pivot in the moment.
8. Support Other Women: Be conscious of how you respond to women advocating for themselves.

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Final Reflection

Nicole’s closing reminder is clear: Real negotiation happens in every "yes" you don’t mean, every time you stay silent, or simply accept what’s offered. These patterns, when unchallenged, reinforce systemic gaps. Mastering real-world negotiation means advocating effectively, building supportive networks, and pushing back against the biases—without draining your authenticity.

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Guest Resources

• Atiya Qureshi’s Book: Never Settle (Amazon & local bookstores)
• Free Playbook: atiaqoreshi.com

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This summary reflects the tone, insights, and real talk of the original conversation—empowering women to see negotiation as everyday "woman’s work" and to practice it as a vital skill.

Transcript

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[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

to the this Is Woman's Work podcast,

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

where together we're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. And around here, we believe that you are the decider of what that means for you. Woman's Work is about you living your life as the truest, realest, proudest version of you. So it could mean a lot of things, but. But what it will never mean is you settling. Because we've been taught to, right? Somewhere along the way, we were told and sold that asking for more is not okay. It's selfish, aggressive, cold and calculating, that wanting more makes you difficult, that it's risky. So better to just keep your head

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

down, work really, really, really hard, prove

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

yourself while staying likable to literally everyone. And then somehow someone will notice and give you what you've earned. And I say all of this because I've tried all of this. And it's not just outdated advice.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

It's bad strategy.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

We've been told that the real reason that women aren't getting what they want, the reason things like the wage gap exists, is because we're not negotiating well enough. That if we just speak up, push harder, lean in a little further, everything would even out. Yeah, that's a convenient oversimplification because it ignores bias, access, and the reality that relationships, opportunities and influence often move through networks that we're not invited into. It ignores the double bind that we

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

navigate where being direct can cost us

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

and being agreeable can cost us. So, no, we're not going to pretend that negotiation is the only problem and therefore fixes everything. But we're also never going to get

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

what we want by opting out of the skill altogether.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

Because negotiation, real negotiation, isn't about being

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

louder, harsher, or becoming somebody that you don't recognize.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

It's about knowing how to advocate for yourself in a way that actually works. It's about influence, clarity, and yes, being unwilling to settle for less than what you want and deserve in your career, in your relationships, in your everyday life. Here to help us develop our negotiation and persuasion skills is Atiya Qureshi, founder of Atiya Qureshi Consulting, where she supports

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

companies through negotiation, conflict resolution and organizational strategy.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

She's the co author of Never Settle, a negotiation guide that moves beyond surface

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

level persuasion tactics and into real practice skill, drawing from decades of experience, including

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

insights from FBI negotiation strategies and others, and is ultimately here to help us

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

build trust, navigate conflict, and walk away with more.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

So, Atiya, thank you for being our guest. And I think probably the best place

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

to start is by asking you, are

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

women really negotiating less, or are we

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

somehow worse at it?

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

And if so, why women are not negotiating less?

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Studies now show that women are negotiating equally, if not more, but we are less successful.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

And I really appreciate the framing you

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

provided because we do get penalized Both ways.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

If we are too accommodating, we get penalized and are seen as not being able to be efficient and sufficient at the jobs. And if we are, if we advocate

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

too much for our needs and ask for what we want, we're seen as aggressive and too assertive and people don't want to work with us.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

So we are getting hit every which way.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

It feels like it. It really does. Like, I believe strongly in the power of persuasion and that negotiation is a necessary skill.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Yeah.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

And I just get so infuriated when something like the wage gap gets simplified to this one cause issue. And like, son of a bitch, it's like, way more complex than that, Right?

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

It is so much more complex and it's outdated.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Women are advocating for themselves, but it's

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

not as successful as when men do it.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Because a man can walk into a room and say, this is exactly what

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

I want, assertively, and he's seen as confident. And a woman walks into the room and says it the same way and she's seen as a bitch.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Yeah, I've been called that a few too many times.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

But me too.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

So in your book, which you co authored with a man, and the reason I bring that up is I'm wondering

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

how often or not often you guys had to navigate any differences or nuances in negotiation. And persuasion with gender is a difference. Like, how often did you see it differently or experience it differently?

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Very often.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

And one of the things that surprises

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

me is even with my co author, it always surprised him when I shared a different perspective that I faced. And a lot of times people, people

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

try to find other reasons than gender

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

or race for that difference because it makes them uncomfortable. And I came across that quite a few times. Because I can't be as assertive.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

I have to be more relational. And a man can say five words

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

and I have to say 50 to get the same thing across, but in a way that's acceptable.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

Agreed.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Okay, Jives with my experience, are there actual studies that support this? Do we have examples of somebody walking into a room saying the exact same thing in the exact same way and getting very different results? I mean, I know there are, yes, certain things that can't be controlled, but I'm curious about what the research shows.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Yes, the research does show this.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

There are some really good studies by Babcock out of Carnegie Mellon that talks about how when a woman does walk in and says the exact same thing

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

as a man, she is penalized.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

And it is not just penalized with the ask, but people don't want to work with her because they see her as being too difficult.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

So the studies absolutely support this.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

But luckily there are other techniques that we as women can employ that are

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

going to help us around that.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Now, here's what I hate, and I have a really hard time with this, is we as women do have to negotiate and influence differently. And it's actually a lot more work for us.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

And a lot of times my students

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

or clients are like, well, why can't I just. Why can't I just do it the

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

way that I want to do it? Why can't the world be fair to us?

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

I'm like, yeah, I wish, but it's not.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

So let me give you the tools

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

that are actually going to work, because

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

until we get to that fair world,

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

I want you to get more.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Okay, so I wanna talk about these techniques, but before we do, I think there might be the inclination, when we talk about these differences, to visualize a woman walking in and negotiating with a man. And I think it's really that we're being penalized by men, but also by women, too. Like, there are women who don't want to work with us.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

And I almost sometimes, in my experience

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

felt like women were harder on other women than men were on women for. And I'm just going to put in air quotes doing it wrong or being too aggressive or what have you that's

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

in alignment with what I'm seeing and

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

what I have experienced in my own negotiations. Women have always been harder from my perspective on me than men have. And I think that to a certain extent, women have had to work harder

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

to climb to the top.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

And that creates a sense of rigidness

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

and a little bit of hardness.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

So as other women come up, I think that there's a little bit of

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

this internal dialogue that happens within women

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

that make us harder on other younger

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

women or other women in general that

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

are also trying to come up. And I think you're spot on with that experience.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Yeah, certainly something I'm going to encourage you, the listener, to really think about. I think we all, myself included, need to be better about that if we want anything to change for all of us.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Exactly.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

I think we have this, like, we

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

climbed up the hill both ways in the snow with bare feet version of

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

our, like, professional success. And it's crazy that we're trying to create similar environment or using that as the standard for other women coming up when we do want it better.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

And we wouldn't wish that on our younger selves or anyone we care about.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Exactly.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

And part of it might be high expectations too.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

We have really high expectations for other women and sometimes we might penalize them for not doing it the way that

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

we think they should. And so I agree with you that

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

we can change the way that we interact with women who are negotiating with us, which would ideally change the dynamic over time.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

So let's talk about some of these techniques. Negotiation and persuasion are both in the title of your book, what's the Difference? And is the one better than the other?

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

For us?

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Yeah. I think that we are negotiating or

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

influencing dozens of times per day.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

It is not just those salary or promotion conversations. It's the workload conversation and the who's

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

gonna go grab lunch today conversation or

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

the household chores conversation.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Who's going to pick up the kids? Where are we going to have Christmas this year? We're doing it dozens of times per day. And that's why we wanted to expand the title and the idea of what negotiation is.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Because it's not just those big ones, it's constant.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

And those constant ones add up to

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

whether we are happy or not. And in my perspective, I think if we can think of things as influence

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

and persuasion, it is particularly better for women because it sets us up long term for success.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

I couldn't agree more that we are negotiating or influencing and persuading all the time. And I would add that there is no better negotiator than a two year old.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Oh my gosh.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

I just, they're so good.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Oh, I just dealt it with this with my son.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

He. I have a two year old and he is just an expert.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

It drives me.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Teach me your ways, please.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Oh God. Like just this morning I was like, this is gonna, this is gonna be my like biggest negotiation ever. Like it's gonna last 18 years and it's or more and I'm going to fail.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Yeah, no, no doubt. I have a 12 year old and I can't say it gets much better, but.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

Okay, so what can we learn from

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

our 2 year olds, FBI negotiators, all sorts of people about the techniques of influence and persuasion.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

You talk a lot about confidence and

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

I love how much you speak about it. And I think that the first negotiation that we often don't think about is the internal negotiation.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

What is it that, what's the self

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

work we are doing before we walk into conversation that we know we need to have?

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

First of all, 90 to 95% of our decision making happens through unconscious emotional processing. So we are underpinning everything with emotion. And a lot of times in situations of influence we have a spike of emotion, often negative emotion. Right.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

We worry about being rejected.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

We have anxiety about the conversation.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

We have fear that the thing is

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

going to be taken away or somehow it's going to become worse for us. So we have to manage and navigate that, that piece first because going through that process is what's going to help us build the confidence when we get to the conversation. And from my perspective, confidence isn't innate. It's something that you have to build just like negotiation skills over time and

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

you have to improve that skill set. And one of the ways that I've found is really managing those internal conversations

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

and those dynamics to set yourself up for success.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Okay. Makes perfect sense. It all happens in our own mind first and often. We are our own worst negotiators. Right? We talk ourselves out of things. We all the what ifs, all the worst case scenarios makes perfect sense for me and aligns with confidence. It's an internal thing, first and foremost. And as you said, something we have to, we get to practice over and over. And it's not innate. It is a skill we get to develop. And because that's true, it requires a lot of practice. All right, I'm with you. Now what?

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Now we need to figure out what

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

it is we actually want. You will be amazed at how many

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

times I've run into clients, students, myself,

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

and we don't have a goal.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

And just having one specific goal makes you twice as likely to succeed. And we don't necessarily think about our interests. And oftentimes we think about it positionally.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

I need $5,000 as a bonus or I, you have to take the trash out right now.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

And those are positions. But what is the underlying interest? I feel alone at home and I need support. And that's, that's the interest that we have. And if we go in positionally, it's not going to be very fruitful because

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

what we're doing is making a demand

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

and influence or negotiation always has another

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

party involved with it. So framing it as something that are

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

your needs rather than demands opens up the door to a conversation. Stating a demand is a closed door.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Okay. A lot of things in what you said, I like the distinction between having a position versus an interest and really getting underneath the what is the experience I'm looking for or what is it that I really want? I think we do have a tendency to focus on the thing I want 5, 000 or I want a day off or I want the trash to be taken out. But what we really want is something deeper and more meaningful. Now, you also made the point that

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

there is another party involved and they

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

also have interests and positions as well. I'm going to use this example because I've heard it a lot. It drives me a little crazy where people will say, you know, I want the raise or I want more money because the interest is, you know, I want to travel more, I want to live a better life, or I want to be able to do X, Y and Z at home.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

And it's not that those things aren't meaningful or important, but the other party involved, their position isn't about caring about your travel or your home life, nor should it be if you have a business relationship.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Yeah.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

So how do we align our interests in an example like that?

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

So here's what sucks. I'll be really honest with you. Women are more successful in a negotiation with what we call a we strategy.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

We love when women negotiate on behalf

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

of others and women get penalized when

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

they ask for something for themselves.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

So it is actually helpful to have a reason. And that sucks because we shouldn't have to have a reason. But if you can come up with

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

a reason that touches upon your needs, but also a broader need that is

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

much more receptive because our whole everybody, right?

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Men, women, everybody, has this orientation that women are caregivers.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

And that's how we enter and frame

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

and that's the dynamic when we're interacting with women. So we have to think about that when we're making an ask.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

So if you're negotiating on behalf of your team, bring that up.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

If you're negotiating on behalf of yourself,

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

bring up where it's going to be helpful for a we.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

But also how it's going to facilitate a benefit to them as well. Right. Like, let's say you need $5,000 for child care.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Right?

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Because that's impacting your ability to get

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

started in the morning. That's a wee piece.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Or there's ag parents that you have to take care of. Or there's, you know, all of these pieces that we can think about in that we strategy are actually really helpful

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

for framing it in a way that feels acceptable. And that sucks.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

But that's what we expect.

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[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

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[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

It sucks. And it's important that we are aware so that we get more and we can change the game and then not have to do that anymore. But I think our brains go to the value of the role. Is this like if I were to go get this role somewhere else or the if I can do the measurable impact of my role to the organization, therefore I deserve, I have earned this salary. That's really the way it should be done. And yet we don't get to do that.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

No men get to do that.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

We don't.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

We will absolutely be penalized for doing it that way. So let me let Me, take a step back, because I want to touch upon that. The next piece that I want all women to start doing right now is making sure that you have a really

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

strong relationship foundation with the key people in your life.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

So with your boss, with your colleagues, with your spouse, with your neighbor, right?

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Anyone that is going to have a material impact in your life, make sure that you have a solid relationship. And the first thing you can do

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

to do that is go take them something small. A cup of coffee to your colleague, a pastry to somebody that you're going to interact with today.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Even a kind word can actually be

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

a small gesture that makes people feel

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

better about you and improves the relationship. And that's something we need to be

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

doing over time, because when we finally

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

do have an ask, it sets us

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

up for success because we can almost always help somebody.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

It just depends on if we want to or not. So we need to make sure that we're putting the building blocks in place to make people want to help us.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Now, I have a caveat here. This has to be done authentically. You can't just give someone a cup of coffee and then immediately make an

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

ask today or tomorrow.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

That's just quid pro quo. And everyone can see right through it. What you're doing is actually giving something

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

without an expectation of anything in return other than a better relationship.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Okay. So again, I go back to, you know, I hate that we have to do this. And I think that there is truth universally about this. We want to help and support the people who help and support us, regardless of gender, I think. And we are in a stronger persuasion or influence position with anybody in our lives if we have a strong relationship, if they care about us or like us in some ways. And human behavior, again, regardless of gender, we tend to like and care about people who like and care about us. And. And again, that sort of help and support feeling that it goes both ways. So on one part, I hate it.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Yeah.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

And on the other part, this just feels like human behavior.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

It is just. And studies show this. There have been countless studies that show that the idea of reciprocity, the idea of giving someone something is hardwired, and that it really does materially impact behavioral change. So men can also do this very successfully. It is just a quick tip that

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

we can start working on right now to make people more receptive.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

And honestly, it's even more important for women because again, we're seen as more

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

relational, as more like caregivers.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

So having that relationship matters more for us.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Let's dig into what we can do before the conversation.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Right.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

We did the self work, we thought

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

about our emotions, we thought about what we want. We're building the relationship.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Now is the prep for the conversation. So thinking through what they care about, right. What is it that they, if you're walking into a salary negotiation, what do they care about? Well, they want to keep you happy

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

because replacing people is hard. They have a budget that they have to be mindful of.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

They probably have their own dynamics with their boss.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

So what does it look like if they have to go to their boss

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

for an ask, et cetera. Right.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

They're going to be a laundry list of things they care about.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

The more that we can think about their interests from their perspective, the more impactful we can be. Because when we, when we enter into a conversation and frame it in a

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

way that we've understood their perspectives, they're

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

going to be so much more interested in that conversation and open to it. So that's learning about their interests. Now we talked about something that you

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

mentioned earlier, which is data. Right. I should be able to bring data. And data is actually very powerful for women in a negotiation.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Go do research.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

We call it objective criteria or external benchmarks.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Go find out what the value is on Glassdoor or level.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

I think it's like levels or just

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

use an LLM and it'll just going

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

to give you a laundry list of

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

what for your role in your industry,

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

what competitive salary ranges are.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

And then I always like to anchor at the spot that's best for me.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

So if I'm negotiating a salary, I'm

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

going for the very top of the

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

range that I found because I can justify it with data.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

And this is very powerful for women in a conversation because it's not about you making a demand personally.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

You're bringing data and that is the support that is.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

We call it a sword or a shield.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

It's the sword in that it gives you an opportunity to put a stake

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

in the sand and it protects you against someone else combating that number. And it's not about what you are asking for, it's about what external pieces say are fair so we don't get penalized.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

We actually it's better for women to have that external data.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

What about internal data? So if we go back to what do they care about? Yeah, I'm sure we have metrics, objective things that we can point to and say we accomplished this or we generated this or we change the trajectory of this. I'm assuming that's also important.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

That's also very important. Yeah. Anytime that you can bring in the things that you have been able to. Able to help achieve, that's very powerful

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

in supporting your ask.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

So I think that's. That's really spot on in bringing those pieces in now here, I would say

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

let's say that, you know, the salary

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

of your male coworker. Do not bring that up. It's only going to hurt you because

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

all it does is it makes.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Makes the other person very defensive and

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

they will find every single reason on the planet why that person is making more.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

So that's where I would be very careful.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Yeah. Again, it fucking sucks.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Yeah.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

But if it's not going to get

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

you what you want and it's not going to get you more.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Exactly.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Then I think that's really good advice because you're right. It absolutely puts the person on the defensive and they're going to go searching for any possible justification that they might have other than I'm biased or, you know, sexist or racist or whatever. Because nobody wants to accept that about themselves.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Exactly.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

Okay, so I want to circle back

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

because as you were saying, like, preparing for the conversation. What do they care about having this external and internal information to bring to the table? I had the reaction of, like, I think this is important across the board. But I've experienced being in leadership positions where employees or people who are newer do this really badly. And I wish, you know, they could hear something like this because where they often miss the mark is they'll go

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

looking externally and they'll just look for titles.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Yeah.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

And you need to look into the

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

job description and compare apples to apples

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

because I, I had somebody come to

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

me and be like, a director of training is making four times more than what I'm making.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

And I'm like, yeah, but you're not doing any of the things based on, like, out. You're actually more of a training coordinator. Should I change your title?

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Yes.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

You know, it was just, it was a really uncomfortable situation and recognition that we didn't title them appropriately.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

But.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

And then also, you know, things like location. Yeah. Same job description.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

And Manhattan is not going to be the same compensation range if you live in Paducah, Kentucky. So this is an important skill to practice and develop.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

Is there some benefit to getting some

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

outside, more experienced perspective as you're preparing

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

for the conversation so you don't inadvertently

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

put yourself in a tough spot?

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Yes, yes, absolutely. And you're right, it does need to be apples to apples. So someone who's a marketing, you know, and a marketing associate at a Nonprofit cannot go look at what a marketing associate at a tech firm makes. It just doesn't make sense. Right.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

You have to look within the same industry, same sized company, same type of company. And location is really important as well. And I love the idea that you're mentioning of validating it.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Right.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Go pressure test what you found with

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

someone who is a trusted mentor or

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

anyone within your circle who can help

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

you with that because.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

And ask them, Ask them, can you look at it from the other perspective? Pretend you are the boss. Where are the flaws in this? And that's super helpful. And if you don't have someone, again, go to an LLM and ask them where the flaws are. Ask them to act as the boss

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

and give you a counter argument.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Amazing. Okay, so we've got the internal negotiation, clarifying what it is we actually want, like what we really want, that relationship, foundation and reciprocity. Preparing for the conversation. Is there anything else?

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Yes, I have two more pieces. So in prep, what can be really helpful is having an alternative.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

What if it doesn't go the way you want it to go? This is helpful for two reasons. First, if you can develop an alternative,

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

you know to a certain extent what the market values.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

And it also gives you confidence in the conversation.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

So we talk about how confidence is a skill.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

When you have an alternative and you

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

walk into that conversation, people can smell it on you.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

You just interact in a different way.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Now, here's where I want you to be careful. Women don't bring up the alternative, right? Be very careful.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

If you do want to bring it

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

up, bring it up at the end

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

and make it sound like disclosure. Hey, this is something I didn't want to mention. This, right?

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

This I'm really hesitant to even share. But because women, again, the studies show if you share an alternative, women, it really penalizes women.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

It will not help you. Men can walk in and say, hey,

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

I have an offer from Goldman Sachs for 20% more. Are you going to match that or beat it? For women, you're going to get penalized in that conversation. So be very careful.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

It's helpful for you in your confidence. It's helpful to know what the value is.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

And it's very important to share it carefully if you are going to share it. So that's part of the prep, right? That is all part of the prep. And through that process of prep, it'll

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

also help you build your confidence.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Because what you're doing is taking all

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

of the tools, adding them into your little toolbox so that when you go in, you have all of these pieces to support you in that conversation.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Now, one last piece is how do

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

you prepare for the no? Right.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

I always like to make sure that I am prepared if no matter, you

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

know, we don't win every negotiation, we

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

don't influence exactly how we wanted to in every conversation. So what I like to do is

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

rather when I prepare for the no,

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

first of all, I like to imagine it in my mind so that I

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

can feel a little less scared or worried about the rejection.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

And studies show that if you do that, you inoculate yourself a little bit and you get a little less fearful. And then the other piece is to figure out how you would pivot and

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

turn it into a not yet. So what is it that you say if you get a no to make

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

it a not yet? Right.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

What is it that we have to do in the next month? What conversations should both of us have? When can we revisit this? And what's the right time?

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

And what, you know, what are the right pieces of information we need?

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Because it's almost never a hard no. So let's pivot it to a not

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

yet and figure out what we need

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

to do to get it to a yes.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Okay.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

All very good advice.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

I want to circle back to something that you said, basically that preparation builds confidence. And that is supported in everything I've ever looked at, read or understood about confidence. But just loving reminder that over preparation becomes problematic. And I do think we as women have a tendency to overthink over prepare, over practice. And so just a loving reminder that

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

if you are stuck in inaction.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Yeah.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Then you are in the over preparing phase and you've got to just get into action in some way somehow. So big, big, big proponent of preparation. But like preparation should lead to inaction.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

And it's actually, it's so funny you say that. I think that it should lead to an action.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

But what happens if we're over prepared sometimes is we walk into the room

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

and we word vomit it and we don't give them an opportunity to speak

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

because we're so amped up and we have to share everything that we know. But one of the biggest, most powerful

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

moves you can make in a negotiation is active listening, because knowledge is power. So asking questions and remaining silent and paraphrasing back what you heard is going

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

to get you more information on what

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

they care about, what the, the blockers or boundaries might be.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

And you can use that information to continue the conversation in a way that's

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

going to be effective for you.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

You cannot do that.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

If you are over prepared because you're

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

locked into the structure in your head

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

and you don't provide any flexibility that

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

is 1000% accurate, you become rigid.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

You can only see it one way

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

because you've over prepared yourself that way. And we lose all ability to. To practice flexibility or to pivot or

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

even to listen to a certain extent.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

It's interesting I say this often in speaking. I think it's also true when I host the podcast, really, all of my work is I tend to do my

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

best work when I come in slightly under prepared.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

And what I mean really is I do have a tendency to over prepare. I'm an overthinker by nature, and so

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

I know that my standard is not the healthiest.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

And so I need to come in

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

slightly under prepared for me.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

And that's typically where I do my best work.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

I'm right there with you. I am right there with you. I was coaching a woman who was amazing at her job. She was crushing it, and she was about to quit.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

She had just landed her firm's biggest client to date. And month after month, the CEO recognized

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

what one team that had been contributing hugely to the company.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

And for the past several months, her team had never been recognized.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Once the marketing team was recognized, the development team was recognized as helping with

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

this client and not her team, even

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

though they were the ones who brought it in.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

And she felt disrespected, she felt undervalued, she was furious. And she came to me.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Yeah, I'm pissed for me too.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Me too.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

And she came to me and she asked me, how do I tell my boss how fucked up this is, right? How do I tell him that this

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

is unacceptable, that I am the one who my.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Me and my team are the ones who actually brought this person in and we are being treated so poorly. I was like, yes, you can absolutely say that, but what is it that

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

you actually want as the outcome of that conversation?

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Because in the back of my mind,

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

I was thinking, you're going to get fired. And she was silent. She was completely silent because she hadn't thought about it other than that she

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

wanted to vent all of these negative emotions out over months and months of building up inside of her. And while that might feel good in

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

the moment, it is absolutely.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

All it's going to do is damage her career and her relationship.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Then I didn't hear from her for a couple of weeks and I was like, oh, man. She went into her boss's office and she's fired. And then she came back and she

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Realized that what she wanted was to a recognition for her team and for it to be acknowledged that they've been passed over. And that was a conversation that we

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

could sort out and figure out how

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

she could have productive with her boss. And I asked her to think about it from her boss's perspective, kind of

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

all the tips that we talked about so far.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

And she went in and had the conversation with her boss and you know

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

what her boss said?

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

Her boss was like, oh my God, I've been so busy with this client, I haven't even paid attention to those all hands meetings.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

That is actually, you know, messed up.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

And he went and talked to the CEO. They were recognized the next month and it worked out really well for her. But she had to make that internal mental shift, had to think about it from the boss's perspective and have the conversation calmly with a goal.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Excellent example. I think one we can all relate to where the anger, the frustration, the disappointment that's in the driver's seat and we don't take a second to stop and ask what is it we really want here? What's the end goal? And is there a better way to accomplish that? And I'm a, you know this, I'm a big venter. Sometimes we do need to venture just vent to somebody you can vent to. Like you know, not your boss exactly.

[Atiya Qureshi (Co-author / Negotiation Expert)]

But sometimes the feelings build up and yeah, that happens. And so we have to self manage

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

that a little bit so it doesn't spew out in a way that's going to hurt us.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

This has been so helpful.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

I love every one of your steps. I wish I would have heard them all earlier in my life. I would have saved myself a lot

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

of heartache and actually ended up with a lot more along the way. So I want to make sure people

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

know where to find and follow you.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

Again, listener, the reminder that the book is called Never Settle. It's available on Amazon or wherever it

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

is you buy books. But let's keep our local bookstores in business.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

Then you can also download a playbook for free on Atiya's website. Again, it's atiakoreshi.com we'll put that link and all the other ways to find and follow Atiya in show notes. Atiya, thank you for doing this incredibly important work, for being here today and for helping us all get more of what we want.

[Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert)]

Thank you for having me.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

My pleasure.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

All right, friend, here's the part that

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

I hope sticks with you.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

You are already negotiating all the time. Every time you say yes when you mean no. Every time you stay quiet instead of asking, every time you accept what's offered, instead of advocating for what you actually want, that's negotiation too. It's just not working in your favor. Because, and I hate this, but it's true. You don't get what you deserve. You get what you ask for, what you're willing to hold your ground on, what you're willing to negotiate for. And no, this doesn't fix broken systems

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

or erase bias overnight.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

But opting out doesn't fix it either.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

It just guarantees that you get less.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

So decide what it is that you're available for or not.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

Decide what you're no longer willing to

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

accept, decide what it is that you really want.

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

And then practice asking for it again and again and again.

[Nicole Khalil (Podcast Host)]

Because every time you refuse to settle,

[Host (likely the main podcast host)]

you rewrite what's possible for you and for everyone else. And that, my friend, is woman's work.

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[Cassity (History of Fashion Podcast Co-host)]

Hi, I'm Cassity.

[April (History of Fashion Podcast Co-host)]

And I'm April, and together we are fashion historians, friends and co hosts of the History of Fashion, a podcast about why the clothes we wear matter throughout history and around the world, from the

[Cassity (History of Fashion Podcast Co-host)]

cultural and societal to the personal and often political. With each episode we explore the multitude of moments, meanings quite literally sewn into the clothes we wear.

[April (History of Fashion Podcast Co-host)]

Please join us in unraveling the hidden histories residing in your closet. New episodes are available on Wednesdays and our Dressed Classic episodes re air each Friday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you listen to your favorite shows.