Screen Time Isn’t the Problem—Your Attention Is (And Your Kids Know It) with Catherine Price | 414

Summary

Podcast Summary

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil

Episode 414: Screen Time Isn’t the Problem—Your Attention Is (And Your Kids Know It)
Guest: Catherine Price
Date: May 27, 2026

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode confronts the pervasive conversation around “screen time” for kids, challenging the focus from just limiting time on devices to a deeper concern: how our attention is shaped, spent, and what’s lost as both parents and children increasingly get pulled into digital worlds. Host Nicole Kalil and guest Catherine Price, a renowned health journalist and author of How to Break Up with Your Phone and The Amazing Generation, unpack how the truly scarce resource is our family’s undivided presence—with implications for how kids develop, how parents model behavior, and what it means to design a truly intentional, fulfilling life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Rethinking “Screen Time”: It’s Actually About Attention [03:55]

• Nicole Kalil introduces the central tension: we want our kids off screens, but parents themselves struggle to model healthy digital habits.
• Catherine Price: The critical issue isn’t the number of hours, but the cost to our (and our kids’) ability to focus, be present, and experience life meaningfully.

  “Our attention is our most valuable resource because you only can pay attention to one thing at a time…We really can’t multitask as much as we would like to convince ourselves that we can.” — Catherine Price [04:55]

The Real Cost: What Kids Lose With Distracted Attention [07:18–11:43]

• Fragmented focus undermines memory, learning, and joy: The brain can’t store long-term memories when constantly interrupted.
• Kids miss formative, lived experiences: Many young adults report “missing” their own youth to endless scrolling, with fewer real memories or deep friendships.

  “If you can’t sustain attention, you’re not going to be able to learn any skills or acquire knowledge…not going to be able to build memories.” — Catherine Price [08:20]

• Relationships suffer: Children feel and remember “fubbing”—being ignored for a parent’s phone—deeply.

Not All Screen Time Is Equal: Making Critical Distinctions [12:37–16:30]

• Drawing a parallel with food, Price urges us to separate necessary, productive digital activities (e.g. maps, banking, this very podcast) from mindless consumption.
• For adults: Sort apps and uses into categories—what adds value, what drains you?
• For kids: Family movie nights or FaceTimes with relatives create shared experiences, but “edtech” (educational tech) may often fall short; the biggest risk is solo, endless consumption or games.

  “Nothing beats in-person time…that’s always going to beat any kind of so-called connection they can have through a screen.” — Catherine Price [16:08]

Tech as a Social Connector: Moderation and Alternatives [18:39–23:59]

• Nicole raises the realist’s dilemma: virtual socializing can sometimes stand in for real-life connection.
• Price affirms that video chats with friends (if they feel good) can be a positive—but warns of side effects, like body image worries from constant self-surveillance on video.
• A practical roadmap for tech:
  • Start with minimal screen/device exposure when kids are young.
  • Use landlines or parent devices for calls; delay personal device ownership as long as possible.
  • Introduce basic “dumb” phones or monitored loaner phones before smartphones.
  • Set clear boundaries and controls—and make this a family (not just mom’s) responsibility.

  “This should not be just woman’s work. This should be family work.” — Catherine Price [23:35]

Modeling Matters: The Power of Parental Example [24:23–26:07]

• Walk the walk: If parents preach limits but constantly scroll, kids notice.

  “Kids can smell hypocrisy from a mile away.” — Catherine Price [24:55]

• The change starts with modeling for ourselves and showing kids what a balanced relationship with tech actually looks like.

Is It Discipline, or a New Kind of Family Leadership? [26:07–30:11]

• Price broadens “discipline” to its root meaning: to teach and lead—recommending firm boundaries, clear family values, and etiquette (e.g., no phones at the table; delay social media).
• Suggests positioning the conversation as a united front, with parents and kids on the same team, fighting manipulative tech together, rather than parents policing kids.

  “If you understand how you’re being manipulated…you actually end up not wanting to spend as much time on these apps…It’s much easier to change a habit if you’re doing it from a place of wanting to change.” [28:11]

• Practical tip: Ask your kid to “teach you something” from a book like The Amazing Generation and work on habits collaboratively.

Resetting Boundaries After Bad Habits [31:08–35:37]

• If you feel you’ve already given in too much (e.g. early smartphones), it’s never too late to reset—don’t blame yourself, society as a whole is only just reckoning with these issues.

  “We are at a major moment of reckoning when it comes to devices and social media…With the information and knowledge that we have now, now what do we want to do?” — Catherine Price [31:51–32:17]

• Frame any new limits as informed by new knowledge and genuine care for your child’s real-life opportunities (not as punishment).

Tools That Help (But Don’t Replace Parenting) [35:37–38:25]

• Apps and tools like Brick, Opal, Freedom, and Bark can block access and support intentional habits for both adults and kids.
• Emphasizes that it’s okay (and smart) to use tech to fight tech—until platforms themselves take child safety and user health seriously, “we have to take this into our own hands.” [38:13]

What Kids Actually Notice About Parental Screen Use [39:18–42:06]

• Children acutely detect being “fubbed” or ignored when parents are distracted, and these moments feel deeply hurtful.

  “We act like we’re paying attention, but we’re not really, and they can feel it…and none of us want that as parents. That’s why it breaks my heart.” — Catherine Price [40:15]

• Common confessions from kids in Price’s talks: being brushed off, parents pretending to nap while scrolling, or being told “hold on a minute” repeatedly but never truly listened to.

  “We’re really harming what all of us would say is one of the most important, precious relationships of our lives, which is our relationship with our children. And it’s during a time that’s so temporary and precious and fleeting…” [41:33]

A Note of Realistic Optimism [42:25–44:24]

• Legal, school, and social momentum is building, with phone-free schools normalizing boundaries and laws pushing accountability.
• Individuals can lead change at a family and community level.

  “This is a situation in which we do have control. And we can do stuff starting today, like right now to make a difference for our kids.” — Catherine Price [44:09]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Our attention is our most valuable resource…you’re only going to remember what you pay attention to and you’re really only going to experience what you pay attention to.” — Catherine Price [04:57]
• “If you can’t focus or pay attention, you can’t do something like read a book…just the joy of losing yourself in a book, that’s not going to be possible.” [09:11]
• “Every single time I ask [students] ‘Have you ever felt hurt or ignored by your parents because of something they do on their phones?’ nearly every single hand goes up.” [11:29]
• “Nothing beats in-person time.” [16:08]
• “Kids can smell hypocrisy from a mile away.” [24:55]
• “Ask your kid: ‘How do you feel when I’m on my phone when we’re together?’” [28:57]
• “As a society, we overprotect our kids in real life…and under-protect them online.” [33:34]
• “We’re really harming…our most important…relationship[s]—our children…And it’s during a time that’s so temporary and precious and fleeting.” [41:33]
• “This is a situation in which we do have control. And we can do stuff starting today, like right now, to make a difference for our kids.” [44:09]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Quote | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:55 | Beginning the screen time vs. attention discussion | | 04:32 | Catherine: “Our attention is our most valuable resource…” | | 08:05 | The existential cost of fragmented attention to kids’ lives | | 12:37 | Not all “screen time” is equal; nutritious vs. junk analogy | | 16:08 | Why nothing beats in-person connection for kids | | 19:21 | FaceTiming with friends: pros, cons, and boundaries | | 23:35 | “This should not be just woman’s work. This should be family work.” | | 24:23 | Importance of parental modeling; kids notice hypocrisy | | 26:28 | Is it discipline or family values/boundaries? | | 28:11 | Why collaborative, informative approaches work better | | 31:44 | How to reset boundaries and why it’s never too late | | 35:37 | On imperfection and tools to support intentional use | | 39:55 | What kids say about parental screen habits | | 42:25 | Hopeful societal signs and empowerment to act | | 44:09 | “We can do stuff starting today, like right now…” |

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Tone and Style

The episode is honest, direct, and empathetic—a mix of tough love and warmth. Nicole brings humor and candid self-reflection as a parent; Catherine blends science, practical advice, and clear-eyed acknowledgment of how hard—and necessary—this work is.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a compelling invitation and challenge to parents: redefining “woman’s work” is not just about changing external roles, but making the radical commitment to reclaiming your attention and modeling presence for the next generation. Through practical strategies, research-backed warnings, and a reminder that collective and personal shifts are possible, Nicole and Catherine leave listeners better equipped to navigate the digital world—one focused choice at a time.

Transcript

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Quick pause. We expanded to YouTube because we keep hearing I needed this 20 years ago and the next generation shouldn't have to wait. So tell the young women in your world who are scrolling and watching to subscribe to this is woman's work on YouTube.

[Nicole Khalil]

I am Nicole Khalil, and you're listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast, where together we're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. And on this show, we talk a lot about all the places redefining woman's work needs to happen. In our careers, our relationships, our homes. From boardrooms to studios, kitchens to coding dens, your street to Wall Street. Right, but the truth is, we're spending as much time, if not more, in a place that I didn't call out in our podcast description, and that's on our phones, our apps, and our feeds. And while I could go in a hundred different directions with that, on today's episode, we're going to approach it as parents and how we limit screen time for our kids. Because I've yet to meet a single parent who's out there campaigning for more scrolling, more gaming, or more social media. We all know that our kids would be better off outside with friends, using their imaginations, reading or being bored. Honestly, even eating dirt feels like a win compared to what's happening on their screens. And listen, I get it. We're raising kids in a world that is rapidly changing with tools we didn't grow up with, while trying to set boundaries that we're not exactly great at holding ourselves. Because the same parents saying less screen time are also the ones answering emails at dinner, scrolling in bed and Picking up our phones just to check something, only to resurface 20 minutes later without a clue as to what just happened. And yes, I'm absolutely including myself in all of that. On one hand, it could be argued that this is just modern life, that screens are helpful and necessary, that we should all loosen up because this is how kids connect now. But this isn't just about screen time. It's about attention. It's about what and who gets our focus, our energy and our presence. And the uncomfortable truth, most of us aren't modeling what we say we want for our kids. And also, just to be clear, I'm not pretending that throwing our phones into the ocean and playing board games every night is a viable option either. So today we're getting honest about the role that screens are playing in our lives and how to decide on purpose what we want that relationship to look like for our kids and for ourselves. Our guest is Catherine Price, award winning health and science journalist, founder of Screen Life Balance, and best selling author of many books including how to break up with your phone, the Power of Fun, and the Amazing Generation. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, and the Best American Science writing. And her TED talk has been viewed more than 5 million times. Katherine's mission is simple but not easy. To help us scroll less and live more. Katherine, thank you for being our guest. And I want to kick us off by acknowledging that we keep talking about screen time, but you argue what we're really talking about or what we should be talking about is attention. So what are screens actually training our kids attention to or away from?

[Catherine Price]

Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be with you today. Really appreciate it. Thank you. And you're really starting on a very good spot in terms of focusing on the effect that screens have on our attention. And I say that because when I was writing how to break up with your phone, which I wrote for myself by the way, in the Amazing Generation, which I co authored with Jonathan Haidt, was a follow up for kids. But how to break up with your phone was for me when I was writing it. My biggest personal takeaway from that book is that our attention is our most valuable resource because you only can pay attention to one thing at a time. We really can't multitask as much as we would like to convince ourselves that we can. And you're only going to remember what you pay attention to and you're really only going to experience what you pay attention to. So that really means that we're making a decision about how we're spending our lives every time we make a decision in the moment about what to pay attention to. And that's true for adults and for kids. So really, everything we're going to talk about today is just as applicable to us as adults as it is to our kids. With the only real difference being that kids brains are more rapidly developing than our adult brains are. And so anything that affects us as adults is going to affect them even more. So to answer your question, it's not so much what screen time as a broad category is doing to anyone's brains or anyone's lives. It's really the type of things we're doing on screens and then how much time we're spending doing those things. So I think that fundamentally the biggest issue is just what I was alluding to, that you really can only pay attention to one thing at a time. And so there's a huge opportunity cost that comes from paying attention to things that are online. And to give you a sense of how much time is currently being taken up, the average American teenager is spending about five hours a day, if not more, just on social media and YouTube. And that adds up to two and a half full months a year if you didn't even sleep. Just two and a half full months a year, your whole summer break. It's an enormous amount of time that we're not spending on other things. And the average American adult is spending a lot of time as well. But the other thing that's happening is a lot of what people are doing, especially young people online, is watching short form videos and content that is very fast paced and that encourages you to rapidly switch between videos. And that's essentially training your brain to be very distractible and unable to focus. So one of the biggest effects that screen time, or more specifically what people are doing on screens is having on our brains, is to weaken our attention span. And I say that in part because, you know, over the years I've heard from thousands of people who have read how to break up with your phone. And the number one complaint that adults tell me about themselves is that they feel like they can't focus on anything anymore and they feel exhausted mentally all the time. And I believe a lot of that has to do with what all of us are doing on our screens and how we're constantly fragmenting our attention between content on the screens and between our screens in real life.

[Nicole Khalil]

Okay, so so many questions were triggered there, but I'm gonna hone in on this one. First, if our attention span or our kids attention span is being weakened, if they can't focus, can't sit still, obviously those things aren't good. But my question is, what are they missing out on because of that? What is it costing them in their lives? Like, I know not being able to pay attention isn't a good thing, but I think sometimes we are not making the connection to, okay, but then what does that mean for them in their life, in their relationships and their future, in their work, in their education? I mean, the list goes on. So I guess my question is what are some examples of really real ways that this is negatively impacting or costing our kids?

[Catherine Price]

I think there's innumerable ways that this is costing our kids or ways in which it's costing our kids. I mean again, our attention is our most valuable resource. I actually had a bracelet made for myself, trying to see if I have it. I took it off because I didn't want to jangle my bracelets while we were talking. Yeah, but here you go. This little bracelet I got made says pay attention. And that was a reminder for myself of the value of attention. So I think the fundamental thing is that our kids are missing out on experiences that they would treasure for their whole lives. If you can't pay attention to things, if you can't sustain attention, sustain focus, you're also not going to be able to learn any skills or acquire knowledge because you need to actually be able to focus in order to do so. You're not going to be able to build memories in general, both because you only remember what you pay attention to, but also on kind of a dorky level when your brain is transferring short term memories into long term storage that requires the creation of new proteins in the brain and that process is interrupted by distractions. So quite literally, if you're constantly distracted, your brain is not going to be able to store long term memories. So that's kind of a big deal. I tend to veer towards the existential whenever I think about this. So I will just anecdotally share that. I've heard from so many young people who feel, when I say young people like in their early 20s, late teens who feel, who feel that they wasted their quote, youth because they spent so much time, they spent so much of their attention on screens cause they actually feel they don't have memories from their own teen years. You also have the effect, and this kind of seems like it goes without saying, but if you can't focus or pay attention, you can't do something like read a book, you know you can't. You're not going to be able to fully lose yourself in anything. And there's many reasons that's a problem. Obviously reading books, that's good for you on many levels. Not just because of learning and acquiring knowledge and doing well in school and all that, but just the joy of losing yourself in a book, that's not going to be possible. And I hear that from adults all the time too, that they feel they no longer can read books. You really can't. I mean, you're not going to be present with your loved ones if you can't pay attention. We've all had the experience of being with someone who is only partially paying attention to us because their attention is trained on their phone or they kind of are paying attention to us. But then a notification goes off and their focus shifts and you can feel that viscerally. There's actually a kind of silly term for that, fubbing, which is short for phone snubbing happens all the time and we all do it. So the list goes on. I mean our attention, I know I said this before, but it is our most precious resource. So if we're training, if we're allowing and encouraging our kids to give away their attention to essentially tech companies, and then we're also allowing them to get sucked into these products that are actively destroying their ability to pay attention, I mean that's going to have a huge impact, huge impact on their lives. I really don't think there's anything more important than being able to pay attention. And I'd also note just as a. I don't know, I'd been giving a lot of talks at schools recently to kids about this newest book, the Amazing Generation. And as part of that I always ask kids, are there any examples? Have you ever felt hurt or ignored by your parents because of something that they do on their phones? And I'm not saying this to like shame or guilt anyone who's listening, but I think it's important for us to know if you. Every single time I ask that question, nearly every single hand goes up. So the way that we're spending our attention also impacts our kids and our relationships. Yeah. Does that answer your question? I mean it really. I could go on. It's just our attention is so important and it's so important for our, to us to protect our own attention and to help protect our kids attention because they actually don't have as many cognitive resources available to them to control their attention because their brains are not fully developed.

[Nicole Khalil]

Yet, no, you did exactly what I was hoping, which has made it both more important and scarier than I even thought it was.

[Catherine Price]

That's what we want to do. Scare your listeners?

[Nicole Khalil]

No, but I mean, I think sometimes that's what we're motivated by, especially when it comes to our kids. We worry we want the best for them. We, you know, and it is a scary world out there, and we do, I think, have the tendency to want to protect. And that really drives that point home. Now, you said earlier that screen time is a broad category. Couldn't agree more. Where might we be getting it wrong by treating it all the same? When we talk about screen time, we're talking about watching TV or video games or something educational or social media. I mean, there, the list is endless. I can't imagine they're all created equal. Any thoughts on how we should be segmenting or separating screen time in our minds?

[Catherine Price]

Yeah, I think that it's. There's a tendency, as we're saying, to kind of lump it all together, but it's. That would be the same as saying that all foods are equal when we all know that all foods are not equal. You know, there's foods that are good for us, there's foods that are just objectively horrible for us, and there's some stuff that's like, it's a good treat once in a while, but you don't want to overdo it. I guess I would answer that question by talking about two categories. First being adults and then second being kids. So for adults, I think that it's very important for us to think more critically about our own screen time and our own uses of technology and say, okay, which things are actually adding to our lives or making our lives better or helping us be more productive or efficient, and those things are fine. For example, I'm going to guess that a lot of people are listening to this podcast on their phone. If this is something you're enjoying that you feel is helping you, you don't need to feel guilty about listening to the podcast on your phone. You know, I wouldn't worry about the time you're spending on Google Maps or checking your banking app or like getting your plane tickets on the airline app. Like, if it's a tool, if it's like a Swiss army knife like tool, then that is actually a great use of technology. There's also times where you do want to zone out, and maybe that is by consuming, mindlessly consuming content. Maybe that's by watching a show. Whatever it is, I think the point is Simply to be intentional about what you're doing so that you don't allow your time and attention to be hijacked by a company without your permission. So for adults, I'd recommend trying to sort what you're doing on your phone and other screens into categories and see how those things make you feel. And then some of that stuff is probably just fine and you feel good about it. And some stuff you may think, oh, actually I do want to change how I'm interacting with or using that. For kids. I do think it's slightly different in the sense that it's so important for them to have real world experiences and it's so easy to get sucked into online worlds or into content consumption instead. And so I do think that there's some cases in which using screens is fine for kids. Like if you're having a family movie night that's a shared experience where it's not really about the screen or the movie, or it's not just about that, it's about the shared experience you're having together, watching it as a family, provided no one is simultaneously scrolling on a device that's different from everyone sitting in the same room playing video games on phones or something like that. I know that a lot of people, adults and kids, really enjoy video. Like maybe that's fine up to a certain point, but as adults we have fully developed brains. We really need to be very proactive about making sure that our kids are not. Their time is not being dominated by screens. So I think that with kids you have to be much more cautious. I think that we should be much more cautious about how we're using screens. Quote, educationally with kids. There's not that much research showing that edtech as it's called, actually helps kids learn in the classroom context. And a lot of so called educational apps either don't really help kids learn or they're actually just mindless games in disguise. Yeah, and I think that there's really, I mean personally, if you want my philosophy, I think it's important to try to minimize kids screen time when they're little for as long as we can. Except for particular exceptions such as maybe facetiming with their grandparents, something like that, or watching something together that's different again from using a screen as a constant babysitter or as an alternative to encouraging our kids or allowing our kids to go out in person and play with their friends in person. And I'd also stress that while yes, technology is very helpful in helping us connect with other people, for example, we're obviously having this conversation over a computer, nothing beats in person time. And so I think it's just really important for us to keep that in mind that if there's any way to help our kids have real life play dates or real life time hanging out with their friends, that's always going to be any kind of so called connection that they can have through a screen.

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[Nicole Khalil]

Okay, so many good takeaways there and I Mentioned this before we hit record. I have a preteen daughter and I remember as a teenager my number one priority was talking to my friends. When I wasn't with them, I wanted to be talking to them. And I'm noticing that my daughter is using her iPad to basically FaceTime her friends. And I want her to connect. I'd much rather her be with them, but she can't be with them all the time. So I bring that up to ask your thoughts. Is this kind of in that food example? It's maybe not the worst of the junk food. It just needs to be moderated a little bit. How are our kids using technology in a way that it is maintaining connection?

[Catherine Price]

Yeah, so that's a great example. So that is the question we all should be asking about tech. Is it helping our kids connect? If your daughter's FaceTiming with her friends and feels good about it, and it's kind of the equivalent of the 1990s, like, you know, pull the phone into your room on the long cord, I think that's fine. I mean, is it better if she can go hang out in person? Yes. But of course, as you're saying, that's not always possible. I think that the caveat there, which I've heard from some parents, is that sometimes being on video calls all the time can. I mean, we've all experienced this as adults. With zoom, you start focusing on your own appearance. And so I've heard from people, especially parents of girls, who've noticed that their daughters are starting to focus a lot on their appearance because of the time they're spending on these video calls. So I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with like doing video calls with your friends. I think that's far better than texting with your friends all the time or getting lost in group chats, let alone social media. So I think maybe it might be helpful if I take a step back and give a little roadmap for how I think about this. I have a now 11 year old daughter myself, but in terms of a roadmap that parents might find useful for helping their kids navigate this. So when kids are really little, as I was saying, I'd recommend minimizing screens. They certainly should not have their own device. I would recommend not giving your kid an iPad when they're little because those are just kind of giant phones that don't actually make phone calls very well. It's kind of the worst there. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't have a way to contact family. Members, you can FaceTime off of your own phone with family members or. One thing I really love is the idea of getting a landline telephone even when your kids are really quite, quite small. And people of my generation and our generation, you know, we think of that as an expensive thing that you need, like a contract with this phone provider for. You don't need that anymore. You can get a phone that works over your wireless Internet. They're called voiceover Internet Protocol or voip phones. And UMA is one that my husband and I have. There's one for kids called Tin Can. And these are great, I think, things to have because then kids can use the phone quite freely to call their relatives when they're little. And then as they get older, when you start to have a kid who's like 8, 9, 10, or a tween or a teenager, they can call their friends on the phone and they can do so much more freely than using a smartphone. I've heard stories about kids asking their parents like, do I. Do I have to ask you before I call someone on my landline phone? And the parents like, no, you can just call them. And the kid's like, what? I have freedom to do something. So anyway, get a landline. And then what I would say is that when your kid starts to be old enough to start to do occasional things out of the house alone, if you feel. Feel like they need to have a phone for that, maybe they don't. Because remember, everyone in the world has a cell phone. If there's an emergency, your kid can literally talk to anybody around them and they will have a phone. But you could get a loaner phone, like a flip phone that doesn't belong to anybody that your kid or kids borrow and then give back. Then when it's time for them to actually have their own independent device, because they're, I don't know, maybe they're walking to school alone more regularly, or they have sports practice, or you just want to give them more freedom, but also want a way to be in touch with. Get a smartphone alternative. Like, I think a lot of us tend to think that it's an iPhone, it's no phone, or an iPhone, but it's not that at all anymore. If you just do an Internet search for smartphone alternatives or basic phones or dumb phones is a term I hate because they're actually quite smart. You'll find all of these brands that have basic phones, the key points being that they don't have unfettered Internet access and they don't have social media on them. And in many cases they have restrictions on games. And that's basically a tool, it's a communication device. And so that's what I would recommend is that next step up before you give your kid an actual smartphone. If you want to seriously delay the age of smartphones, just have your kid have to pay for it. Like they won't have a smartphone until they're like 25 as the result, because they're so expensive. But I would definitely recommend trying to delay smartphones until we say in the Amazing Generation, at least high school, but I'd actually say at least 16. That that was more just because it was a more practical goal at the time that we were writing this. And then as parents, when you do give your kid a smartphone, we really do need to put the work into activating parental controls. I mean, obviously you should have lots of conversations with your kids before this point about smartphones and social media. That's why we wrote the Amazing Generation. But we as parents do need to put that work in. I also really want to stress something that I don't get to say as much as I would like to, which is this should not be just women's work, this should be family work. So whoever you're living with, whoever your partner is, whoever you're raising your kid with, like, get them to take on some of this responsibility. It's a family thing. But we do have to put the work in to educate our kids about tech and then also protect them from some of the very dark things that are accessible to them online. And some of the very nefarious people who are out there who could contact them once they get an actual smartphone. That's my spiel. Sorry, I just went on for quite a while.

[Nicole Khalil]

No, I loved all of it. And anecdotally when my daughter was young, we had moved and we had somebody come to set up our Internet and also added a landline and they came in and they were like, oh, I thought you were going to be a 70 year old woman. Because I wanted a landline. Apparently it's not very common. And I appreciate you saying how this is the work of parents. Really?

[Catherine Price]

Yes.

[Nicole Khalil]

To have the conversations, also to model it. I think it's so important that we, we know what we want for our kids. And I think there is a huge disconnect from what we say we want and what we're demonstrating, emulating, practicing in our own lives. And I have a firm belief that people learn best by experience and observation. So we can tell em till they're we're blue in the face, but they're watching us and learning far greater what it is or isn't like to have a healthy relationship with screens.

[Catherine Price]

Yes. And kids can smell hypocrisy from a mile away. And that's why I was saying, like, when I ask kids, have you ever felt ignored or hurt by a parent and all their hands go up. And I'm not saying that again to, like, guilt or shame any of us. That's the last thing any parent needs. But I think it's important to know. And I'd also say it's not just modeling behaviors that we want our kids to emulate. It's modeling the behaviors we want for ourselves because we want to live fulfilling, meaningful, joyful lives, too. Like, we adult. And so if you can almost flip it around in your mind so it's your desires for your kids are almost an inspiration for you yourself to make changes that help you live more. A more joyful life, like, that's wonderful. I mean, it really should be. We should be trying to elevate all of us by changing our habits.

[Nicole Khalil]

You know, I often frame it that way for myself because I can see it more clearly. I ask myself, for myself, what would I want for JJ in this situation? Or what would I hope she would do? Not because I think I'm not worthy of on my own, but because it's more obvious to me when I think about it through what I would want for her, Because I only ever always want the best for her, and it's not muddy for me.

[Catherine Price]

Oh, no. We're getting to therapy now.

[Nicole Khalil]

Yeah.

[Catherine Price]

Nicole deserves these things, too.

[Nicole Khalil]

I'm kidding. Okay, so I think off the therapy, we often do try to put this in a discipline area, though, both self discipline and disciplining our children. Is this a discipline thing, or is there another way to look at it?

[Catherine Price]

Well, the word discipline, the root of it, comes from a word which means teach and lead. So it's not, you know, I think we get that wrong a little bit where we think of it more as,

[Nicole Khalil]

like, wagging the fingers.

[Catherine Price]

Yeah. Why finger wagging? I would say that finger wagging doesn't work. Kids are sick of us finger wagging. I do think that we have to set boundaries. So in that sense. But I think that's different from disciplining them in the stereotypical sense of discipline. So I think that having clearly defined and firm boundaries is very important. And having an etiquette within the family, for example, that no one's going to be on the phone at the dining room table, or that we are just not. You're just not getting a smartphone until whatever you decide or no, social media does not align with our family values. You know, have a conversation about what are your family values? And then ask yourself, is how most people interact with these devices and these apps, does that align with our values as a family? I've heard people talk about how you can have thousands of fights with your kids about screen time once you give them a phone or just one, which is like, whether or not they're going to have access to these things. But I think far more effective than finger wagging in terms of the stereotype of discipline is to come at this from the same side. Because ultimately we are actually on the same side as our kids. And that's something we tried to really convey in the Amazing Generation when Jonathan Haidt and I were writing it. And I think is one of the reasons that that book is resonating with kids of our target readership, which starts around nine years old, which is that if you understand how you're being manipulated and if you understand how you're being taken advantage of and how you're being lied to by these tech companies, you actually end up not wanting to spend as much time on these apps and platforms. And as is true with any kind of habit change, it's much easier to change a habit if you're doing it from a place of wanting to change as opposed to being told that you should change or told that you shouldn't do something. So I would say that what I would suggest to parents, and again, this is why we wrote the book, because we're third parties. We're not parents telling the kids we're. I mean, we are parents, but we're not those kids. Parents is. I've heard a lot of people get the Amazing Generation and leave it out and have their kid look at it, because kids often do look at it. It's a book that has a graphic novel in it. It's very colorful. And what I always suggest is actually ask your kid to teach you something. You know, check out this book. Teach me something. I want to work on my own screen habits, and I want to have a conversation with you about this. I actually just came out with a family guide to Screen Life Balance on my website. That actually is kind of a structured way to do this as a family, but that's much more effective. And we've heard from readers, adult readers, say that for the first time, they feel like they're on the same side as Their kids when it comes to conversations about tech. And it doesn't feel like a fight anymore. It feels like a productive conversation. And so to answer your question, I think that that is far more effective as an approach to kind of humble yourself a bit. Say, like, as adults, we were taken advantage of. Taken advantage of. I mean, I literally wrote how to break up with your phone. Do I have perfect phone habits? No, I don't. I still don't because it's very, very difficult. And I think it's important for our, our kids to see us actively working on this, actively struggling in a way, you know, being vulnerable with them and asking them for their observations. Ask your kid, how do you feel when I'm on my phone? When we're together, have you noticed me doing anything that makes you feel ignored or, you know, in danger? Like, for example, texting while you're driving your kid somewhere? That can be really effective. And then it becomes a productive conversation instead of a fight. And then it's not so much about discipline, it's about keeping boundaries. But it's not just boundaries for your kid, it's boundaries for the whole family. Because that's how you've decided that you want to live.

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[Nicole Khalil]

You kind of already answered this. I think you pretty much did, but I'm gonna ask it anyway, just in case you have anything to add. If somebody's listening and they've been a little loosey goosey up to this point, or they went further in the past than they maybe wanted to. Not like they got their kid a smartphone and now they're listening, going, oh, crap, I wish they didn't have it. Any tips outside of giving them the book to help them collaborate on what to do next. Any other tips about how to reset boundaries or create something new when you may have done something different already?

[Catherine Price]

Yeah, I would say first of all, do not blame yourself. Don't, please don't, like, don't add this to a list of things to feel bad about as a parent. Like you already have plenty. This is what I say. Parenting, at least in my experience, is constant course correcting and constantly adjusting on the fly. And I would say as a society, we are at a major moment of reckoning when it comes to devices and social media. I mean, you can see this in what's happening with the verdicts against meta and YouTube that came down a few weeks ago. You can see this with all the phone free school legislation that's been passed. It's been happening so fast. You can see this with the social media bans in Australia and soon to be Indonesia. And there's all sorts of other, there's lots of other countries considering similar things. We're in a big societal reckoning right now. And so I don't think we should look back and feel bad about what we've done in the past. We should be saying okay with the information and the knowledge that we have now. Now what do we want to do? And I think to answer your question, I want to really encourage parents to not feel that you can't change, like what you can say to your kids. I know that this is what we did in the past. I know we let you on TikTok or Snapchat or Instagram or whatever it is. I know that I also have more information now than I did when we first made that choice. And I mean, I can go on at length about why those particular apps are extremely dangerous for kids in terms of sexual predators, in terms of drug dealing, in terms of the type of content that is being served up to children and teenagers because of these algorithms. But it is inherently unsafe. And I really do want to emphasize that Jonathan Haidt says this all the time, but we really do overprotect our kids in real life right now and then under protect them online and job as a parent is to keep your kids safe. And so I think that that's something you can communicate to your kids and say, that is my job. I now have information I didn't have before. We're going to be making changes to how we approach technology. I know that you might not like some of these changes, but we will get through it. We will get through this together. But again, that's where you have to be confident in yourself as a parent that you are making an educated choice. The best decision you can make based on your knowledge in this moment, which may be different from the knowledge you had when you gave your kid a smartphone. And that's okay. I know that this will lead, this can be extremely difficult. But I'd also say that I've never heard from an adult who said that, you know, there are adult children said, I really regret that you didn't give me a smartphone till I was X age. It's always like, I wish I hadn't gotten the smartphone that young. I wish I hadn't spent that much time on social media. So even if your kids push back now really hard in the future, I think we need to hold onto the fact that they're likely to be grateful. And the last thing I would say there, just in terms of, I know that fear of missing out is a big thing that parents struggle with, that children missing out on things. That's why it's so important for us to take action collectively as parents, so that our kids aren't left out. You don't need to get everybody to not have a smartphone or roll back social media, but you need to get a core group of parents so that your kids do have friends who don't have these things. And I'd also encourage parents and to switch what we're focusing on in terms of fomo. There's a huge amount of fear of missing out in terms of what happens if our kids don't have access to smartphones and social media. What will they miss out on? And I really encourage everyone listening to flip that around and to think of the question of what will they miss out on if we do give them access to these things. And that as we were talking about at the top of our conversation, is the opportunity to have real life experiences, develop real life relationships and friendships and create memories of their own lives. I hear that a lot, as I was saying, from people in their early 20s who feel that they really missed out on life and that's not what we want for our kids. So to me that's a helpful reframing that helps me feel more firm in my own decision to not let my daughter on these things.

[Nicole Khalil]

Super helpful. And I can't let you go without asking. I think it's going to be a two part question. But this idea, I think, of perfectionism can be really permeating as a parent. And you said even with all your knowledge writing these books that sometimes you struggle with your phone and it's funny, recently I felt like I was doing pretty well for a while there, but recently in the last few months, I found myself defaulting again or picking up my phone and being like, how did I get here? And so I've started looking into things like Brick or the Bark app for kids. I'm just kind of in the search of tools that help not replace, but support decisions to try to be more intentional about where we're spending our time and our attention. Any thoughts on those? And then I have a follow up question.

[Catherine Price]

Yes. So I think that you've hit on something really important, which is that there are tools that can help us. When I first wrote how to pick up your phone in 2018, there were not as many tools available. But now there's a number of really great app blockers which can be used not just for kids, like Bark is designed for kids, but for adults to create healthier boundaries with our phones and our other devices, which is especially important, you know, when it feels like there's so much news happening all the time and much of it is just really stressful. Like you never check the news and they tell you there's more puppies. You know, it's like, not that. So. So I highly recommend checking out some of these solutions. There's the Brick, as you mentioned, which is a great app blocker. It's a physical device that you can leave at home if you really want to get serious about it. And it actually blocks things. It's not that stupid. Like Hourglass on Apple, the screen time thing that just asks you if you want to override your own intentions, it actually blocks things. There's Opal, which does the same thing. Freedom is another great one. I've heard good things about screens and I haven't tried that myself, so I definitely recommend those. And then there are also a number of gadgets and things for kids, like the, the Yodo is a screen free music player and podcast player that can be very helpful if you want your kid to have more independence listening to music, but you don't want to get them a phone to do that on. So there's a, there's screen free cameras, Camp Snap or something like that. So there's, there's more and more products that we can turn to as adults for ourselves and also as parents to help us and our kids take advantage of the good parts of technology without getting sucked into it. And obviously all those smartphone alternatives that I mentioned before are really good. But yeah, I love the Brick. I love Opal, I Love freedom. I love all those apps. And I think that there's no reason not to use technology to help us create better boundaries with technology, because until Apple and Android, until they actually build better solutions in themselves, let alone social media companies, which never will, let's be honest. Like, we have to take this into our own hands. So I highly. I highly endorse those.

[Nicole Khalil]

Yeah, I feel like the hill that I'm willing to die on as a parent is to delay social media as long as humanly possible. Like, my daughter might be 28. She. I mean, you know, she'll figure that out.

[Catherine Price]

But I think the important thing there is that. Sorry to interrupt you, but, like, one of the key things in the amazing generation that we talk about is freedom, friendship, and fun and how to fill your life with real friendship, real freedom, and real fun. And the idea being, which is true, is that tech companies promise us that we will have connections with our friends, more fun and more freedom if we use their devices and if we use social media. But those are lies. And so we really try to. I guess what I'm saying is that it's completely developmentally appropriate that our children would want to have more freedom and more fun and more time with their friends. And I think what we as parents should be doing is saying, I totally hear that, and I get that, and that's good for you, but we're going to help you do that in real life. And I think that framing can be very helpful.

[Nicole Khalil]

It is very helpful and for us as adults, too. Which leads to my very last question. I think we often think that our kids don't notice as much as they do. You said this a couple times, that every kid almost raised their hand when you asked if they'd felt hurt by something their parents did on their phone. So my question is, what are you hearing and seeing that kids notice about our screen habits that isn't working or that we think that we're hiding, but we're not? What are the most harmful things we're doing as it relates to screens for our kids?

[Catherine Price]

Oh, man. There's so many stories these kids tell me. It turns into this confessional very quickly. And numerous teachers have said to me after these encounters, I can't believe that that particular kid raised their hand and told you that story. That's not something I would have anticipated them being vulnerable about in front of their peers. But, you know, it's like a lot of it comes down. Oh, God. I mean, it's kind of heartbreaking. A lot of it comes down to Just moments where our children are vying for our attention. They desperately want to tell us something, or they want to connect with us, or they want to show us something. And we act like we're paying attention, but we're not really, and they can feel it, and none of us want that as parents. That's why it breaks my heart. So it'll be like one little boy is like. You know, I'll say to my dad, I really want to show you something. And he'll say, oh, yeah, I see it. And then the boy said, I know he didn't see it because he was looking at his phone. Or another kid told me, you know, my mom will say that she's going to go take a nap and she needs to go take a nap. But then I go upstairs, and she's actually just scrolling on her phone. She's not actually. Or my father went upstairs in the middle of dinner to, I don't know, go to the bathroom or something. And then I found him in the other room just on his phone. He told us that he had something important to do, but I could see what he was doing. He was just scrolling. Or another little girl told me, you know, my mother's using Duolingo. And every time I try to talk to her when she's using it, she just puts up a finger and she says, hold on a minute. And so I just sit there and wait. But then she never. She never actually listens to me. So I think that we're destroying. I mean, if you want me to end us on a depressing note, that's like, we really are. I don't know, we're really harming what all of us, I think, would probably say is one of the most important, precious relationships of our lives, which is our relationship with our children. And it's during a time that's so temporary and so precious and so fleeting. You know, I just always have that Cat's Cradle song in my head where it's like, you're gonna grow up to be just like me, dad. You know? Cause it's like our kids are desperately trying to connect with us, or they're desperately trying to show us things. They want our attention, they want our affection. And here we are giving it to a phone, you know?

[Nicole Khalil]

Yeah.

[Catherine Price]

And we're gonna wake up and they're gonna be 17, and what are they gonna be? It will literally be like that song. We should just use that as the theme song for this episode. We'll be trying to connect with them, and they'll be like, yeah, just hold. They'll be putting their finger up and saying, oh, I just, I have one more thing on like Instagram. So I think that's. Oh man, that's so depressing. But I do think that that's what at stake.

[Nicole Khalil]

It is depressing, but it's also direct and necessary. And I believe that the highest form of care is telling people things they need to know that they don't necessarily want to hear. Getting uncomfortable for somebody else's sake I think is pretty special. So thank you.

[Catherine Price]

Okay. Anyone else ready to cry? I could end on a positive. I will. Can I, can I get one positive? Mess would say that, you know, I do stay up at night worrying about these things. And there are very daunting challenges that we're facing. AI, we haven't even talked about that, but huge challenges. I will also say that I have been amazed, and I alluded to this earlier, but how, how? I've been amazed by how fast things are shifting and I've been amazed by how people are standing up and taking action. I think that, for example, the phone free school movement is going to have societal effects, like way beyond schools. We're basically now raising a generation of children who are learning that there are times during which it's inappropriate to have a smartphone out, which is something that honestly, adults have not learned. So they actually are getting used to the idea of having eight hours a day where they're not constantly checking a device. That's wonderful. And I think that you see these laws like the social media ban in Australia coming to pass. Is that going to make, I mean, is no kid in Australia ever going to check social media? No, of course not. But it's a societal message that these things are not safe or okay for kids or to have these companies be hauled into court in front of a jury. I mean, that is a huge deal. It's a huge deal. So I think that it is a solvable problem, even though it feels really daunting and it really just requires us all to stand up together and make some very simple changes. If most people in your friend network decided together not to give their kids social media accounts till they're 28, that's a very simple thing. It might be hard, but it's also simple if that makes sense. So I think that there's things that each of us can do in this case that will have a real effect, a positive effect for our kids in a way that we don't, we can't. With most things in the news, most things that are facing humanity today individually, we don't have much control over. This is a situation in which we do have control. And we can do stuff starting today, like right now to make a difference for our kids. And so that is what I would leave people with.

[Nicole Khalil]

Well, if you're listening and you're anything like me, where you love a healthy dose of truth along with some inspiration, then I'm going to encourage you to get Katherine's book, How to Break up with youh Phone for your and the Amazing Generation for your kid, and then ask them to teach you something they learned from the book. And of course, I'm going to encourage you to sign up for Katherine's newsletter on substack so you can look for Katherine Price, how to Feel Alive. Definitely subscribe. This is something that we need to work on individually so that we can have the impact collectively. Katherine, thank you so much for being here for your amazing work and for telling us the truth and inspiring us at the same time.

[Catherine Price]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Nicole Khalil]

My pleasure. All right, friend. I don't think any of us need any more reminders that this matters. We already feel it every time we look up from our phones and realize what we missed. We already know it's what's best for our kids. Which means we also know, even if it's unconsciously, that it's what's best for us, too. And the goal isn't perfection or less screen time just for the sake of it. The goal is to create the time, the space, the attention, the opportunity for more life, more presence, more of the things that matter most. I'm going to remind us all, myself included, that no app, no setting, no rule will ever be stronger than what we model. Which leaves us with the hard but necessary choice to reclaim our attention and give it to what and who matters most. Because they won't learn it from what we say. They'll learn it from what we do. And modeling a life that you're excited to live, well, that's not just woman's work. That's everyone's work.