The Ambition Trap with Amina AITai | 309

Summary

Podcast Summary: This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil

Episode: The Ambition Trap with Amina AITai | 309
Release Date: May 14, 2025

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Introduction

In episode 309 of This Is Woman's Work, host Nicole Kalil welcomes Amina AITai, a holistic business and career coach, chronic illness advocate, and immigrant. Amina discusses her debut book, The Ambition Trap: How to Stop Chasing and Start Living, which delves into the dual nature of ambition—how it can both empower and entrap individuals, particularly women. The conversation explores redefining ambition, overcoming systemic barriers, and cultivating a healthier relationship with personal and professional goals.

Understanding the Ambition Trap

Nicole opens the discussion by sharing her personal struggles with ambition, feeling "too much" and grappling with internalized beliefs that led to burnout and self-doubt. This sets the stage for Amina to introduce the concept of the "Ambition Trap."

Notable Quote:
Amina explains, “The Ambition Trap is the space between feeling like we are both too much and not enough at the very same time” (04:39).

Purposeful vs. Painful Ambition

Amina differentiates between painful ambition and purposeful ambition:

• Painful Ambition: Originates from core wounds such as abandonment, rejection, humiliation, betrayal, and injustice. It often leads to overworking, burnout, and self-destructive behaviors. Amina shares her experience of developing autoimmune diseases due to relentless pursuit driven by these wounds.

  Quote:
  “Ambition that comes from our core wounds… can be the energy of destruction” (06:12).

• Purposeful Ambition: Stems from a place of wholeness and self-awareness, aiming for growth without harming oneself or others. It emphasizes harmony and integrity in pursuing goals.

  Quote:
  “Purposeful ambition is ambition that's coming from a place of wholeness… it's a much more harmonious relationship with ambition” (08:06).

Systemic Factors Influencing Ambition

Amina highlights how societal structures exacerbate the ambition trap, especially for women, people of color, and individuals with disabilities. Systemic issues like the pay gap force many to overwork to achieve recognition and financial stability.

Quote:
“We are often told that we have to work twice as hard to get half as far” (09:05).

Overworking and Burnout

The conversation delves into how painful ambition leads to overworking and burnout. Amina argues that overworking is not merely a personal failing but a consequence of systemic inequities that pressure individuals into relentless productivity.

Quote:
“Burnout is treated as a moral failing, but it’s actually a systemic and economic problem” (10:15).

Balancing Hard Work and Well-being

Nicole and Amina discuss strategies to differentiate between being hardworking and overworking. The key lies in the underlying motivations and ensuring that ambition aligns with personal integrity and purpose.

Quote:
“Am I working hard because I don't feel worthy? … Or am I working hard to achieve something meaningful?” (11:04).

Reframing Success and Comparison

Amina emphasizes the importance of redefining success beyond societal standards and resisting the urge to compare oneself to others, which fuels the ambition trap.

Quote:
“Comparison is the thief of confidence and the thief of joy” (16:13).

Living Directionally, Not Destinationally

Amina introduces the concept of living directionally, focusing on the journey and continuous growth rather than fixating on a specific destination or title.

Quote:
“We want to live directionally, so we're always getting new information and our purpose evolves” (19:37).

The Resentment Line

Amina explains the "resentment line," a boundary that ensures individuals are not giving more than they receive in relationships and work. Staying above this line fosters contentment and prevents resentment.

Quote:
“To be in right relationship with purposeful ambition, we have to be conscious of the resentment line” (20:10).

Cultivating Contentment

Four strategies to cultivate contentment at work are discussed:

1. Centering Values: Clearly defining and aligning actions with personal values.
2. Reducing Comparison: Focusing on personal growth rather than measuring against others.
3. Building Aligned Communities: Surrounding oneself with supportive and value-aligned individuals.
4. Embracing Play: Incorporating play and creativity to balance work and foster joy.

Quote:
“Contentment sits so beautifully with ambition because it’s the knowledge of enough internal stability, regardless of what is happening around us” (29:17).

Reframing Ambition

Amina advocates for a radical redefinition of ambition as a neutral force driven by purpose rather than external pressures or internal pain. This mindset shift requires continuous, minute-by-minute choices to align ambition with one's true self.

Quote:
“Ambition is not a win, no matter the cost. It requires a fundamental neural rewiring” (30:57).

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Nicole and Amina reinforcing the notion that ambition, when aligned with personal integrity and purpose, can be a powerful and fulfilling force. They encourage listeners to redefine success on their own terms, prioritize well-being, and build supportive communities to navigate the complexities of ambition.

Final Quote:
“Ambition, like most things, is neutral. It isn't good or bad. It's the relationship that we have with it that matters” (32:34).

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Key Takeaways:

• Redefine Ambition: Shift from a pursuit driven by external validation and pain to one rooted in purpose and personal growth.
• Awareness of Systemic Barriers: Recognize and address societal pressures that contribute to the ambition trap.
• Balance and Contentment: Implement strategies to maintain a healthy balance between ambition and well-being.
• Community and Support: Build and nurture communities that align with personal values and provide support.

Resources:

• Book Mentioned: The Ambition Trap: How to Stop Chasing and Start Living by Amina AITai
• Amina's Website: aminaltai.com
• Nicole's Website: nicolekalil.com

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This episode offers a profound exploration of ambition's dual nature, providing listeners with actionable insights to cultivate a balanced and purpose-driven life.

Transcript

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[Aminah Altai]

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[Nicole Khalil]

I'm Nicole Khalil, host of this Is womanswork, the podcast where we're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today with you as the decider. Whatever feels true and real and right for you, whether it comes from your gut, your intuition, or that tiny whisper inside that says, yes, you are meant for this or this is meant for you. And maybe the reason I'm so passionate about this, about you as a woman, doing whatever it is you feel called to do, is because for many years I didn't. For many years, I didn't listen to that voice inside. I ignored gut feelings. I did what I felt people expected. I molded, I proved, I pleased in so many ways, but mostly in that I made myself small, yes, physically, with an eating disorder, fad diets, and regularly starving myself. But as is so often the case, that was just the external symptom of an internal issue. I had bought into the idea that I was too much, too loud, too opinionated, too ambitious, even too successful. And because of that belief, I stayed in places and with people that weren't meant for me for far too long. I've come a long way. I've worked day in, day out to build my confidence, to be proud of who I am while also staying committed to growth and curiosity. But I'd be lying if I said that those old beliefs never creep back in, the too much, the too difficult. Yeah, it still shows up sometimes, and I've started wondering about all the things that contribute to that feeling and how I can swing almost from one extreme to the other on one hand, I can think of so many moments even today, though not as often, where I've felt judged for being ambitious. The unspoken but clearly implied judgment being that I'm too ambitious for a woman. And on the other hand, I have let ambition lead in ways that didn't serve me. I've turned myself into a productivity junkie who couldn't turn it off. I've had to learn things like efficiency, effectiveness, slowing down and saying no. For me, ambition has often felt like both a blessing and a trap. Which is exactly why when today's guest reached out to share that she was releasing a book called the Ambition Trap, it might have been the fastest yes we've ever said. Well, that and the fact that she's already been a guest on this podcast. She joined us for episode 208 and she was an A guest then, so we knew she'd be an A guest now. Aminah Altai is a holistic business and career coach, a proud immigrant and a chronic illness advocate. She is a leading coach to notable leaders, executives and founders. And her mastery is in helping people connect to their brilliance and live and lead from that place every single day. Her debut book, the Ambition how to Stop Chasing and Start Living is out now and today she's sharing the hard earned wisdom that made her write this book in the first place. I'm going to thank you for coming back to the show and I'm curious your thoughts about my opening because I haven't read your book yet. I am going to read it. So I don't know if what I'm thinking about as my own Ambition Trap is at all what you're talking about. So let me start by asking, what is an Ambition Trap?

[Aminah Altai]

Well, I'm super curious if you saw me nodding along because every single word you were saying I was like, yes, yes, I have felt that. My clients have felt that. Exactly that underlying exclamation point. Yes. I honestly thought you had read the book because of the way that you were describing it.

[Nicole Khalil]

It's on pre order, friend. I haven't gotten it yet.

[Aminah Altai]

Yeah, okay, we'll make sure to get you an advance reader copy. So the Ambition chap is exactly what you were talking about. It is the space between feeling like we are both too much and not enough at the very same time. It is the mindsets that about us not being good enough or that we are too much or too something. It is what is systemically reinforced as well. Right. So ambition and I wanted to write a book on ambition because it is one of Those culturally complex, politically loaded words that will either highlight our benefits or our drawbacks, depending on who's being labeled. You said this in the intro. Ambitious women are often seen as too much. Right. In quotations, ambitious men are seen as driven and powerful, and then we add in other identities, and it's even more complicated. And so I wanted to really radically reframe ambition, because I think it is neutral and natural, and at its core, it's simply a desire to unfold. But we need to reclaim it, because the story we've been sold is that only certain people are allowed to have it.

[Nicole Khalil]

Yeah, it's unflattering on certain people. Right. Like, that's sort of the message that we're getting. And forgive me, but it's sort of fucked up if you think about it, this idea that we're somehow both too much and not enough simultaneously. Like those things can't both be true, and yet how often we operate or vacillate between the two and interact with them as if they're true. Right?

[Aminah Altai]

Yeah, absolutely. I've lived my life in that gap, in that trap, in that space, and so have all of my clients. And so it's not true. Right. It can't be real, because how can you be both of those things at the same time?

[Nicole Khalil]

Right. Okay, so you talk about purposeful versus painful ambition. I'm curious about that.

[Aminah Altai]

Yeah. So painful ambition, which is the dominant paradigm that we're taught is ambition that comes from our core wounds. So I came of age. I graduated right into the 2007, 2008 recession. I came of age in the girl boss, tech bro eras. And we learned that ambition is more for more sake all the time, no matter the cost. Right. So you squeeze every last drop of productivity out of yourself. You hurt yourself, maybe you hurt others in the process of getting to the goal. And when I came on the podcast before, I shared about my stop moment where I burned out and developed two autoimmune diseases because of that relationship to ambition. So the ambition coming from the core wound is painful ambition. And there's five core wounds. There's abandonment, rejection, humiliation, betrayal, and injustice. And we all have 1, 2, 3, or all 5 of the wounds. There's just a very human rite of passage. We could have the most gorgeous parents on the planet, the most amazing caregivers, and you will still emerge with a core wound because it's just a very human experience. But when we let our ambition, our desire to grow come from that place, it can be the energy of destruction. So I'll give you an example. I had a rejection wound growing up. And for every wound we have, we wear a corresponding mask. Rejection wound. The mask is avoidance. And so if you feel like you've been rejected, you'll just avoid getting close to people because you don't want to get hurt again. But the thing about avoidance is then you end up doubling down on things by yourself. It sort of perpetuates the myth of individualism. So I can do all of these things on my own, because if I get close to people, maybe they'll just let me down, and that's where we hurt ourselves. But purposeful ambition, which is what I'm inviting people to pivot into, is ambition that's coming from a place of wholeness, a place where we're not trying to hurt ourselves or others. We're not trying to be the fastest, the strongest, no matter the cost. It's a much more harmonious relationship with ambition.

[Nicole Khalil]

Okay, I'm having 1 million thoughts flooding my brain all at the same time. I think, you know, when I think of painful ambition, those core wounds and how they. The mask that you put on, if I'm understanding it correctly, speaks to my personal experience, I think. So many people listening in, and I just wonder, like, for me, it was always this feeling of needing to prove myself, which was, you know, I'm a daughter of immigrant parents, as I know you are, and a woman, and it just felt like I needed to do 10 times more in order to get the recognition or the reward or the whatever is that. I'm assuming that's painfully ambitious. Right. That's painful ambition. Any thoughts or reactions on that? I feel like that's a pretty common thing. I hear that a lot from women I work with. Not surprisingly, you attract a lot of who you are. Right. But thoughts or reactions in that?

[Aminah Altai]

Absolutely. And that's the systemic piece. Right. So I'm always really cautious because there's stuff for us to own in our relationship to ambition and where it's gone awry. And also, we're operating in a system that doesn't always to support women and other historically excluded people. Right. So women, people of color, people with disabilities. We are often told that we have to work twice as hard to get half as far. And that's evidenced in things like the pay gap. Right. It's like you can be the top 1% performer in your company and you're still going to make 7 cents less than your cishet white male peer. And so the system also encourages us to source our esteem from a Place of pain, to source our ambition from the place of pain. So we need to be working on both things at the same time. And I think it's really important to say that because I think especially as women, we have a tendency to make ourselves wrong and wear the problem. And it's just our mindset. Yeah, it's a piece of it, but it's both things.

[Nicole Khalil]

Okay. You also mentioned this idea of more for more sake. And I have to imagine, both from observation and personal experience, that one of the problems of painful ambition is overworking, exhaustion, burnout, whatever you want to call it. Talk to us about that.

[Aminah Altai]

I actually think that overworking is a systemic and economic problem because if we didn't have the racial wealth gap, if we didn't have the pay gap, a lot of us wouldn't have to overwork. Right. And so again, we talk about burnout as if it's a moral failing. And this is how I felt about it when I was first burned out. I was like, what have I done to myself? I am such a problem. And we talk about it as something that can be ameliorated by introducing productivity hacks or like an adaptogenic beverage. It's not the case. Right, sure. Those things help. And we're in a system that asks us to overwork because there's so much inequity. And so I think, of course we have to take better care of ourselves. We have to lean into self care and community care. All the while we're working on the system to close some of these gaps so that we don't have to hurt ourselves to make ends meet.

[Nicole Khalil]

I'm curious if you have any insight in how to delineate between being hardworking and overworking, because I, as an entrepreneur, I do know that there is, I'm gonna say, a need. I guess there's probably anomalies, but I would imagine the vast majority of entrepreneurs or business owners would tell you especially early on that it takes a lot of hard work, it takes a lot of risk. And then there is a point where it's like we hold onto it as a badge of honor, or like we don't know how to stop working hard when we don't need to anymore. And we fall into that overworking or more for more sake that you mentioned earlier. Any idea or information about how to delineate between when we're hard working, what I would imagine purposeful ambition, and when we've gone into overwork?

[Aminah Altai]

Yes, I think the difference is the why behind it. And if we're in Integrity. Because I will tell you straight up, right now, I'm working my buns off, right? I am working hard. I have a coaching practice, I got a book out and same for you. I know that you are working hard over there, but it's the why behind it. Am I working hard because I don't feel worthy? Am I working hard because I'm coming from a place of not enoughness and I need the external validation? I need other people to tell me that I'm a shiny bright star? Because that's painful ambition, right? And that's out of integrity for me. But am I working hard while also taking care of myself to get what I think is an important body of work out into the world so that other people's lives can be changed? That's integrity for me. And so there's a line and sometimes it's blurry. And as you and I were talking about before we hit record of like, this moment is asking a lot of me. And I have to be really, really judicious to not dip into the burn space. And it's such a fine line.

[Nicole Khalil]

It absolutely is. And it's crazy how easy it is to default if you're not paying attention to old patterns or just working for work sake. In the spirit of integrity, I will be upfront that I am not working hard.

[Aminah Altai]

I want that for you.

[Nicole Khalil]

I am working easy right now and have been for the last couple years, but mostly because of my end of 2022 is when I released my book. And I was the poster child for painful ambition and perfectionism and burnout and like all the things, right? And I just made the commitment that I couldn't, wouldn't do that to myself anymore. And so for me, the last couple years has been about being in integrity to what I didn't have words for, but this more purposeful ambition that you're talking about and working easy because I am trying to shift my belief to the idea that I've put in a lot of hard work. I have taken a ton of risks and there is supposed to be a point in time where that begins to pay off and it becomes easier. So maybe easy isn't the right word, but easier, lighter, more flow, more ease, less force, less stress. Like that is really important to me right now.

[Aminah Altai]

What I heard is that you made a big pivot, right? A big pivot around your mindset and how you were gonna show up. Because having just gone through the book process, it's very easy to default to those well worn pathways that say work really hard. Be the hardest working person in the room and you'll get to the shiny goal. But therein lies a lot of our pain, right? So for me, one of my wounds is betrayal. Right? When we felt like our caregivers didn't live up to expectations. And the mask is control. So I see like every week where my little control mask pops up and it's like, well, if you just control everything, everything will be great, right? And that's an invitation and an opportunity for me to heal. And we can't control everything, especially in this process. And I also think that. And I'd love to hear your perspective on this, but writing a book is really interesting. I just learned that 97% of books won't sell more than a thousand copies.

[Nicole Khalil]

I was like, oh my God, I think it's wild. The average book sells 300 copies in its first year. Or something like that. Like that blasted my mind, right?

[Aminah Altai]

Okay. So that was such an important reframe for me because I've already sold a thousand copies. I'm sure you sold way more than that. But then what happens is we compare ourselves to the 0.0000001% that hit the number one New York Times bestseller list. Right? And then that comparison again fuels our painful ambition. So I just had just a reframing for myself around that of like, girl, you're already in the top 3%. That's a beautiful thing. And you are not going to hurt yourself to get to the point.00001%. Because you're coming from a place of pain. And.

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[Nicole Khalil]

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[Aminah Altai]

Yeah, exactly. Just looking at other people's lives and measuring sticks and highlight reels and then telling ourselves that we're not enough. And it couldn't be further from the truth.

[Nicole Khalil]

So how important is it that we understand, and I'm going to say our purpose? But I want to make sure that I am clear that I don't believe that most of us have just one purpose. And our purpose can evolve and change over time. But if we are calling it purposeful, ambition and alignment is part of it, how important is it that we understand our purpose, our true gifts, our natural talent, and that we're using those things when we are employing our ambition? Is my question making any sense?

[Aminah Altai]

It's completely making sense. And I think you and I say the same thing in slightly different ways. So I believe there's through lines of our purpose for a lifetime, but the expression of our purpose is changing all the time. So one of the examples that I give in the book is one of my dear friends. She's a fellow coach. Her name is Shirin, and she used to be a famous opera singer. And I just like. I love. I'm obsessed with it. I'm like, you're a famous opera singer now. You're this really cool coach. So her. Her purpose has kind of remained the same. It has been to bring forth joy in every interaction. And she did that as an opera singer, moving these huge opera houses, and now she does it as a coach. And so the expression of purpose is perpetually pivoting and evolving over our lifetime, though there may be some through lines as to the what of the purpose. And. And so we want to make sure that we're centering the essence of our purpose in this, but giving ourselves permission to evolve over the course of a lifetime. Because as humans, we live directionally, not destination. I just wrote a book on this Megan Heller. And so she talks about how we get so obsessed, especially in the west with the destination of like must get to CMO of this company. Right, that title. But when you take one step and you learn something, you're like, well actually, I don't know, maybe it's something else. And so we want to live destinationally. So inside of this purposeful ambition framework is yes, we have a through line of purpose, but we're living directionally so we're always getting new information. So the expression of our purpose is always evolving. So you can have as many careers as you want in your lifetime. And listen, career isn't always purpose. Right. Those things can be different, but the invitation is to keep evolving.

[Nicole Khalil]

Yeah, so you were being kind. You said it way better than I do. I love this idea of that there is a through line because that again speaks completely to my experience. I often think of it as like breadcrumbs. Right. But the expression changes is I think really a cool almost invitation. So I don't even know where this ties in. It was in my notes something about their resentment line and living above the resentment line and just that just was of interest to me. What do we need to know about that? How does that tie into our ambition?

[Aminah Altai]

Yeah, so the resentment line is exactly what it sounds like. And I didn't coin this term. I heard it from another coach, Daniel Cohen, and I just loved it because like right away you know exactly what she's talking about. So the resentment line is a line and if we live below it, we're resentful, we're kicking rocks. Right. We haven't asked for what we need, we're not being supportive. It in the right way. This could be in the context of our salary, the team we have around us, anything or even in friendship, right. How much you're giving versus receiving. And so to be in right relationship with purposeful ambition, we have to be conscious of the resentment line. We have to be conscious of the deposits and the withdrawals and we have to make sure we're nourishing ourselves in the right way. Because if we're living below the resentment line, we're coming from a place of pain and that's going to show up in everything. And it doesn't serve anybody for us to be resentful. Right. It's like even if we've over given and we think that that's a nice thing, people are going to feel that we feel resentful. And so it serves everybody to meet our needs and we don't have to Earn the right to have our needs met. And that's kind of what I'm talking about with the resentment line is meet your needs, state your needs, allow them to evolve as your purpose evolves, and always be advocating for them.

[Nicole Khalil]

Okay? And there is four ways you say that we can make sure that we are content at work and that we're above the resentment line. What are those four ways?

[Aminah Altai]

One of the things that I really wanted to write about in the book was contentment. Because in the west we're obsessed with this idea of happiness, right? It's like, do work that you love and you'll be happy or all those things, right?

[Nicole Khalil]

Bullshit. Exactly.

[Aminah Altai]

Thank you for calling bullshit on that. The thing about happiness, it's an emotion and is therefore transient. It's supposed to be, right? So if we become obsessed with this idea of like gripping onto happiness, we are going to be miserable because happiness is supposed to fluctuate, right? And there's a study from the world's first happiness hacker, and they talk about how basically the happiest people or people that live the longest, that live the most fulfilling lives are actually the ones that have emo diversity. So they actually allow a full range of human emotion to come and to go. So when it comes to centering contentment, a couple of things are really important. First and foremost, we need to be really clear on what our values are and really center our values. And this might sound obvious, but I think especially for every next level of becoming, we need to sit down and take inventory of our values and what's important to us. And one of my favorite exercises in the book is when we think about our values, think about a couple of interactions you've had over the last year where they didn't go your way, where maybe you were upset or you felt violated, or you felt that there was an injustice that's going to point to your values. And so when we center our life around our values and our work around our values, it really helps to build that contentment. The next piece is what we were talking about earlier around comparison, right? We live in a world where, especially through social media, we're always comparing ourselves to others. But that does not contentment make right. Especially when we're comparing ourselves to people's highlight reels. And so instead of comparing ourselves to others and always outsourcing our self esteem, can we look inward? Can we cultivate that from an inward perspective? The next piece is community. And this is such a big one. There's so many studies these days that suggest that who we spend our heartbeats with who we spend our time with. And having a really good front row, as you called it. I think Michelle Obama calls it that too, which I love.

[Nicole Khalil]

Oh my gosh, does she? That makes me the happiest. I'm sure I got it from her through other people. But anyway, keep going.

[Aminah Altai]

Yeah, you two should be besties, obviously.

[Nicole Khalil]

I totally see it. That's definitely where this is going.

[Aminah Altai]

That's where this is going, exactly. So cultivating really aligned community. People that share your values, people that want to lift you up. And there's several tiers of community. And I have an exercise on this in the book because this is something that I noticed with myself and with all the high achieving women that I work with. So I believe there's five levels of community. Our tier ones, which are our ride or diesel. Our tier twos, which we like, love, will do so much for them, they just don't get the All Access pass. Our tier threes, which are kind of acquaintances, people that we're still building intimacy with, our tier fours, who are not values aligned and our tier fives, who are not healthy for us to be around. But with a lot of the high achieving women I work with, we treat everybody like they're a tier one. We're like, everybody gets the All Access pass. Let me do everything for everyone. Oh, I just met you. Let me help you move. Let me pack all your boxes with you. Right? And then that kind of contributes to the resentment line because we're treating everybody like they're a tier one. And when we don't get that back, we're upset about it. And so we want to be really conscious about how we cultivate our community. And that leads to contentment in a really big way.

[Nicole Khalil]

I'll also add there too, I think one of the things that I see us as women often do is when we are around Tier 5 people at work, for some reason, we're more willing to excuse or dismiss it.

[Aminah Altai]

I feel like that's very true.

[Nicole Khalil]

I have experienced myself and interacted with a lot of women and coached women where they are very clearly working with a toxic leader or in a toxic environment. And I'm just defining toxic in this case in that it really doesn't work for them. Like it's harmful for them. It could be borderline abusive for them. And yet we stay. We do that in romantic relationships, I think sometimes too, for sure. But I see it often being excused in a work environment. It's confusing not because I haven't experienced it, but like when are we going to get on the other side of this? Like, under no circumstances in a professional environment should somebody be screaming at somebody like, I'm sorry. Under no circumstances in a professional environment should somebody grab or slap your butt. I'm sorry. Like, Like, I'm sorry, not sorry. Right. Like, under no circumstances in a professional environment should people be demanding that you do something after hours or on weekends. And under no circumstances in a professional environment should we be micromanaged at the level where we have absolutely no choice or say so or ability to use our talents. And for whatever reason, when you slap a label like leader or job, or we get all like, oh, it's not that big of a deal. That's just. I don't know.

[Aminah Altai]

Yeah, yeah. I talk about this in the book. So the toxic visionaries, right? And so many of us excuse their behavior because they're visionary, because they're a good leader, because they made a lot of money for the company. But as a collective, we need to stop excusing the behavior. I use the example of Sam Bankman Fried. He founded the FTX Exchange. It was one of the largest cryptocurrency exchanges. And he built wealth faster than almost anyone on the planet. He became a billionaire super fast. He was called the boy wonder of cryptocurrency. And when he was raising money, he was in a conversation with one of the biggest VC firms in the world. And he was playing a video game, League of Legends. Like, wasn't even, like, presenting. Like, was literally there, like, feet up, playing this video game. And they were so impressed with his irreverence that they funded his venture, like, to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. And I remember reading this being, like, if a woman, If a person of color ever rolled up and behaved that way. Oh, heck no. Right? We already only get 2.7% of VC funding. If we behave that way, we'd be getting a whole, whole lot less. And so as a collective, we need to stop excusing bad behavior, especially for certain identities. Because, like, oh, they're a rainmaker. Or, oh, they're creative. Listen, you got a lot of other rainmakers and creative people here that you need to take care of too.

[Nicole Khalil]

Yeah, 100%. Okay. I feel like I took us a little off track. The four ways you're.

[Aminah Altai]

Yes.

[Nicole Khalil]

To make sure you're content at work. I think you covered three, right?

[Aminah Altai]

Yes. The last one is the art of play. And so this was a really interesting one and a hard one for me. So I was a parentified child and so I did. There wasn't a lot of time and space to play, and I carried that into work as well. And so a lot of people would give me feedback about being like, all work and no play and just like, oh, so ambitious. You're only focused on the work piece. And after a while, I was just so annoyed of hearing. I was like, okay, let me do something about it. So I hired this creativity coach, and they literally taught me how to play. They made me set up these PlayStations in my home from like a painting corner to a dance corner. And at first I was so annoyed, like, what is this? And then over the course of three months, it kind of returns you to your childlike self where you're in the moment. And being in the moment is one of the best places we could ever be because it updates the map for our brain, right? When we are future tripping or we're living in the past, we usually send ourselves into fight or flight. And so the art of play cultivates contentment in a very big way, my friends.

[Nicole Khalil]

Okay, so I love this idea of contentment over happiness. I have a quote in my office that says, don't wish me happiness. I don't expect to be happy all the time. Wish me courage and strength and a good sense of humor because I'll need all of those. Or something like that. Right? And so that always spoke to me, this idea that we say this so much with our kids. I just want them to be happy. And it's like, well, they're not gonna be all the time. That's not how it works. Right. So let's hope that our kids have courage and strength and a good sense of humor, because they are gonna need all of those. What I really love is this idea of contentment being linked to ambition, because I think there could be the sense that these are opposites.

[Aminah Altai]

Yeah, yeah. Ambition. And I talked about this in the beginning when we hit record. Ambition, in its purest sense is simply a desire to unfold, a desire for more life. And every living thing on the planet has that desire, right? From a blade of grass to our cats, right? They, all their cells, have a desire to unfold. So there could never be anything wrong with that, but we make it wrong, like we talked about. And so contentment sits so beautifully with this, because contentment, in Eastern tradition is described as the knowledge of enough internal stability, regardless of what is happening around us. And sometimes the things happening around us are really hard and really uncomfortable. And it is very challenging to cultivate that internal stability. It's sort of a lifelong journey, but if we can cultivate it, if we have that knowledge of enough inside of ourselves, we're not chasing our ambition from a place of pain because we feel like we need more. We're letting ourselves unfold from that place of truth.

[Nicole Khalil]

Again, I'm loving this. And in full transparency, I think my brain is having a little bit of a hard time processing it because it feels like a paradox and because it's contrary to what we constantly hear over and over again. This idea of ambition being about an unfolding versus a drive or a push, right? Or this idea of contentment or even like harmony. Some of these words that I don't think are often associated with ambition, that really should be. So I don't even have a question here. I'm just hoping, Amina, if you can kind of keep talking because my brain is like, I think, trying to process this new paradox.

[Aminah Altai]

Yeah, I love that you're saying this because I'm sure so many people will feel this too. But I am reframing, I'm radically reframing ambition. I'm saying it's not a win, no matter the cost. It's not a hurt yourself, it's not an external validation thing. And those are all the things that we've been taught. So what it requires is a fundamental neural rewiring, right? Because our neural pathways defaulted the other way. And now we're going a new way in this conversation. And what I'll say about it is it's a minute to minute choice, right? And I noticed that for myself, right? Even in the process of writing this book and getting the book out into the world, it is a minute to minute choice to have my ambition come from a place, place of purpose versus a place of pain. Every time I choose to put down control and ask myself, am I in integrity? I am inviting myself deeper into the place of purposeful ambition. But it's minute to minute and I think we all are in recovery from it, right? Even me, who wrote the book on it. I wrote the book on it because I needed it. I'm still relearning and rewiring.

[Nicole Khalil]

I can relate to that as well. And I've already ordered my copy, but I want to make sure everyone listening orders theirs. So again, the book is the Ambition Trap. If you go on Amina's website, aminaltai.com, they're also doing a bunch of giveaways associated with the book this week. So make sure you check that out. I know, I will too. I'M going to thank you for being here today, for writing this book in alignment to your purpose, and for helping us to rewire, reframe, radically reframe, as you said, ambition in a way that's so much healthier and so much more supportive. So thank you for all of it.

[Aminah Altai]

Thank you so much for having me here, for your beautiful questions and for always sharing your platform and shining a light on beautiful work. I'm really grateful for you.

[Nicole Khalil]

Same friend, Same all right. Ambition, like most things, is neutral. It isn't good or bad. It's the relationship that we have with it that matters. Is it aligned with who you are and what you actually want? Or is it fueled by shoulds, external expectations, or fear of falling behind? Amina reminded us that ambition can be purposeful instead of painful, expansive instead of exhausting. And maybe most importantly, that you get to decide what success looks like for your life, for your body, for your work, and even, yes, for your rest. Because isn't that the work? The real work? Deciding for, for yourself, listening to yourself, honoring both who you are and who you get to become. I am not the decider for you, but all of that sounds like woman's work to me.