The Broken Rung: When The Career Ladder Breaks For Women with Kweilin Ellingrud | 291

Summary

Podcast Summary: This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
Episode: The Broken Rung: When The Career Ladder Breaks For Women with Kweilin Ellingrud | 291
Release Date: March 17, 2025

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Introduction

In episode 291 of This Is Woman's Work, host Nicole Kalil engages in a profound conversation with Quailyn Ellenrud, one of the senior partners at McKinsey and co-author of the book The Broken Rung: When The Career Ladder Breaks For Women and How They Can Succeed In Spite of It. The discussion delves into the systemic barriers that hinder women's career progression, particularly focusing on the pivotal moment known as the "broken rung."

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Understanding the Broken Rung

Nicole Kalil opens the discussion by highlighting a critical issue in women's career advancement: the "broken rung." She states:

“Women outperform men in school. Higher GPAs, more degrees, more master's degrees. So this is not an intelligence or academic issue... For every hundred men promoted, only 81 women make that jump.”
— Nicole Kalil [00:57]

Quailyn Ellenrud clarifies that the broken rung refers to the first promotion to a managerial position, where women disproportionately face obstacles:

“The broken rung is the problem. For every hundred men, it's only 81 women that are being promoted... It is the single biggest obstacle holding women back from senior leadership.”
— Quailyn Ellenrud [04:15]

Experience Capital and Its Disparities

The conversation shifts to the concept of "experience capital," defined as the knowledge and wisdom accumulated over a career. Ellenrud emphasizes that women often accumulate less experience capital than men due to factors like career breaks:

“In a 10-year period where men are gaining 10 years of experience on the job, women are on average getting about 8.6 years because we have more career breaks...”
— Quailyn Ellenrud [07:23]

This gap in experience capital manifests early in careers, affecting long-term earnings and advancement opportunities.

The Role of Networking

Ellenrud discusses the differences in networking between men and women, noting that women often have narrower and less senior networks:

“Women's networks tend to be more narrow and more junior than men. About 20 percentage points more of the men said yes to having multiple people help them get promotions.”
— Quailyn Ellenrud [08:40]

She highlights the importance of building broad and influential networks to access higher-level opportunities and "big moves."

Diversity and Meritocracy

Amidst discussions on networking, Nicole brings up concerns about diversity and meritocracy, questioning whether reliance on networks undermines merit-based advancement:

“I feel like screaming, oh my God, it's because you golf with these people or have beer with these people. That's why you're getting the promotion...”
— Nicole Kalil [12:18]

Ellenrud counters by asserting that diversity and meritocracy are not mutually exclusive and, in fact, complement each other:

“When diversity and meritocracy come together, that's when they're both at their strongest. Diverse teams solve tough problems better...”
— Quailyn Ellenrud [12:18]

Advice for Career Stages

The duo provides actionable advice tailored to different career stages:

1. Early Career (First Five Years):

   • Choose the Right Company: Opt for organizations that invest in continuous learning and offer cross-functional rotations.
   • Make Bold Moves: Take on roles that stretch your skills beyond comfort zones.
   • Start in Power Alley Roles: Engage in positions that directly contribute to revenue and profit to enhance lifetime earnings.

   “Picking the right company that's going to invest is critical. A few other things that matter in those first five years are making a bold move and starting in power alley roles.”
   — Quailyn Ellenrud [20:22]

2. Established Careers (Mid to Late Stages):

   • Expand Your Network: Treat networking as a tool for meeting new people and exploring opportunities.
   • Enhance Technological and Emotional Skills: Develop skills that complement technological advancements and foster human connections.
   • Embrace Entrepreneurship Within Roles: Initiate new projects or products to demonstrate leadership and innovation.

   “All of us will need more technological skills and social and emotional skills. Building entrepreneurship skills is also critical.”
   — Quailyn Ellenrud [26:11]

Motherhood and Career Advancement

Addressing the intersection of motherhood and career progression, Ellenrud discusses the "motherhood penalty" where women face career setbacks due to childbearing:

“Women, when they have children, can expect lower lifetime earnings. Men, on the other hand, can expect more income and are perceived as more stable.”
— Quailyn Ellenrud [29:20]

She offers strategies to leverage the skills developed through motherhood, such as multitasking and negotiation, to enhance professional capabilities:

“Recognize the skills you've built, whether that's multitasking or negotiating with a toddler, and apply them in the workplace.”
— Quailyn Ellenrud [29:20]

Confronting Biases

The discussion moves to identifying and addressing both conscious and unconscious biases that impede women's advancement:

“Normalize talking about bias, appreciate and recognize biases within ourselves, and work systematically to reduce them.”
— Quailyn Ellenrud [33:37]

Nicole adds practical tips for mitigating biases, such as challenging one's reactions and advocating for oneself:

“When I get upset about someone doing something I disagree with, I ask myself how I would feel if someone I agreed with did it.”
— Nicole Kalil [35:16]

Conclusion

Nicole and Ellenrud wrap up the episode by reinforcing the importance of a solid support system and collective effort to dismantle the broken rung. Nicole emphasizes that diversity, equity, and inclusion are integral to redefining women's work:

“Diversity, equity, and inclusion is absolutely woman's work. We choose for ourselves and we stand for other women to be able to do the same.”
— Nicole Kalil [37:01]

Ellenrud reiterates that empowering women with knowledge and strategies is essential for overcoming systemic barriers and achieving career success.

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Key Takeaways

• Broken Rung: The critical challenge lies in the first promotion to management, where women are disproportionately overlooked.
• Experience Capital: Women often accumulate less on-the-job experience due to career breaks, impacting long-term advancement.
• Networking: Building broad and influential networks is vital for accessing higher-level career opportunities.
• Diversity and Meritocracy: These two concepts complement each other, enhancing problem-solving and continuous improvement within teams.
• Career Advice: Tailored strategies are essential for different career stages, emphasizing the importance of company choice, skill development, and networking.
• Motherhood Penalty: Recognizing and leveraging the skills gained through motherhood can mitigate career setbacks, while addressing societal biases is crucial.
• Bias Awareness: Identifying and actively working to reduce both conscious and unconscious biases can foster a more equitable workplace.

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Notable Quotes

1. Nicole Kalil:
   “Women outperform men in school... It is what our guests today call the broken rung, the single biggest obstacle holding women back from senior leadership.”
   [00:57]

2. Quailyn Ellenrud:
   “The broken rung is the problem. For every hundred men, it's only 81 women that are being promoted.”
   [04:15]

3. Quailyn Ellenrud:
   “When diversity and meritocracy come together, that's when they're both at their strongest.”
   [12:18]

4. Quailyn Ellenrud:
   “Recognize the skills you've built... and apply them in the workplace.”
   [29:20]

5. Nicole Kalil:
   “Diversity, equity, and inclusion is absolutely woman's work.”
   [37:01]

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Resources Mentioned

• Book: The Broken Rung: When The Career Ladder Breaks For Women and How They Can Succeed In Spite of It by Quailyn Ellenrud, Lorena Yee, and Maria Martinez. brokenrunbook.com
• Implicit Association Test: implicit.harvard.edu

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Final Thoughts

This episode underscores the importance of recognizing and addressing the early-stage barriers that prevent women from ascending the corporate ladder. By focusing on building experience capital, expanding networks, and actively combating biases, women can overcome the broken rung and achieve sustained career growth. Nicole Kalil and Quailyn Ellenrud provide both insightful analysis and practical strategies, empowering listeners to navigate and reshape the landscape of women's work.

Transcript

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[Nicole Kahlil]

I am Nicole Kahlil and you're listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and what it feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today with you as the Decider. From boardrooms to studios, kitchens to coding dens, your street to Wall street, we explore the multifaceted experiences of today's woman, confirming that the new definition of woman's work is whatever feels true and real and right for you. And as your host, I know that not every woman needs or wants to break through the glass ceiling. But but I for sure would like to see a lot more of us kick the shit out of that invisible, unspoken barrier which begs the question, what is really preventing us from doing that? You cannot convince me that it's lack of talent or qualification. Seriously, that's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. And I don't believe it's lack of desire or leadership ability. I am sure that access bias, societal expectation, internal guilt, or lack of confidence may all play their part. But what is really happening and where is it happening? Because we need to know what the problems are and where they're happening to even begin to solve them. And what if the real problem starts way earlier than we thought, before we even get close to any ceiling, glass or otherwise? What if women are getting knocked off the ladder as they begin to climb? Here's the deal. Women outperform men in School. Higher GPAs, more degrees, more master's degrees. So this is not an intelligence or academic issue. But the moment we step into the workforce that Advantage seems to disappear. And when promotions to manager opportunities start rolling around, for every 100 men promoted, only 81 women make that jump. And that gap, it compounds over time, keeping women behind long before we ever even get a shot at the big leagues. It is what our guests today call the broken rung, the single biggest obstacle holding women back from senior leadership. And after more than a decade of research, countless interviews with top leaders and their own experiences breaking barriers. McKinsey senior partners Quailyn Ellenrud, Lorena Yee, and Maria Martinez have written a book that not only exposes the problems, but give women actual strategies to get ahead, whether or not their companies decide to get their act together. Their book, the Broken when the Career Ladder Breaks for Women and how they Can Succeed In Spite of It, is a blueprint for navigating the realities of corporate life, building experienced capital, and accelerating career growth, no matter what barriers are in the way. And today we have one of the authors joining us, Kwelyn Ellenrud. And we're going to dive deep into why the system is broken, what women can do about it, and how to make sure that you don't get stuck at the bottom. Okay, Kailan, thank you for being here. And it's important that I ask this before I ask a bunch of other questions. And that is, what is the broken rung, and how does it compare? Or how is it different than what we hear about a lot, which is the glass ceiling?

[Quailyn Ellenrud]

Absolutely. The broken rung is that first promotion to manager that women are getting tripped up by. So keep in mind that most employees in Fortune 500 companies in the United States are at that entry level. 70% of employees are at the entry level. And so everybody's really encountering this broken rung. And as you described, for every hundred men, it's only 81 women that are being promoted. And when you look at women of color, it's 65 Latina women and 54 black women. So it's even harder for women of color. And it's that promotion gap that we see that then makes the pipeline so uneven early on that the rest of the talent pipeline. Yes, it gets worse with each step. Right. 2, 3 percentage points with each successive promotion. But it's really that first promotion, that broken rung at the very beginning of the career ladder, that affects everybody and, frankly, holds them back across a career. Right. We see the lingering effects of that five, 10, 20 years down the road.

[Nicole Kahlil]

Okay, thank you for clarifying. And then it begs the question, why? Right? You're doing research on this, so why Is this happening at that first promotion level? What's getting in the way?

[Quailyn Ellenrud]

Yeah, so the broken rung is the problem. I think the solution is what we call experience capital. And experience capital is the knowledge, the wisdom that you build on the job across a career. And when we did research across kind of four countries around the world, about half of your lifetime earnings is due to the education and the characteristics you bring to the job. Right. Where you describe women are excelling and have been for decades. The other half of your lifetime income is from the experience capital, the wisdom, the knowledge that you build on the job. And that's where women are not building as much experience capital and they're certainly not getting kind of the credit for it, given the pay gap. What we find in experience capital is that it differs by country. So in the US it's a little bit more from what you build on the job, what you kind of bring in education, a little bit less from experience. In India, it's more what you build in experience over time. In some occupations where you've got a lot of education, let's say you're a doctor and you've had 12 years of education going into it, more of your lifetime earnings are from that education and less from the experience capital. But on the other side of the education spectrum, if you are a waiter or a waitress or a plumber, more of your lifetime earnings is going to come from that experience capital that you build over time. So that's really the solution. And each chapter in the book talks about how do you keep that learning curve steep across a career, how do you build the experience capital and get credit for it across a lifetime?

[Nicole Kahlil]

And are you seeing that there is actually a gap in women's experience capital compared to their male counterparts? And if so, you know, in theory, if they're working the same jobs, for example, in that first promotion, in your first five years, what experience capital are women missing?

[Quailyn Ellenrud]

So there is a gap in experience capital that women are getting versus men. If you take a 10 year period where men are gaining 10 years of experience on the job, women are on average are getting about 8.6 years because we have more career breaks and we have longer career breaks when we have them. Now, a lot of that could be around child kind of rearing years. It could be taking care of your own health, taking care of health or parents or in laws. But we do have more breaks and longer breaks. We also around the world have the majority of part time jobs and the minority of full time jobs. So there's a lot that's going into kind of building this experience capital. But when you think about what's going on at the broken rung, that first stage, all of these things haven't yet had time to kick in. So that might be differences in flexibility desired, that could be biased, both unconscious and conscious bias, a whole range of things that are kind of happening at those early stages. And then, you know, experience capital needs to be built across the career.

[Nicole Kahlil]

Okay, and then what can we do or what should we be paying attention to to make sure that we're getting recognized for credit for the experience capital we actually have? Sounds like a two part problem.

[Quailyn Ellenrud]

Yeah, absolutely. I think number one is how do you build the best experience capital and kind of keep that learning curve steep at different stages of a career? And I'll talk a bit about early stages, right? Picking the right company, picking the right occupation. I'll talk about maybe medium stages of a career where you're sort of building skills, networking skills, technological skills, soft skills, and then kind of longer term things. As you think about retirement and financial security, as you think about your own kind of long term health, what are the things that you need to keep in mind? So that's the part around building experience capital. And to your point, the other part of it is making sure that that's recognized and that's around making sure that you're both signaling that, making sure that you're building a network. So we know that women's networks tend to be more narrow and more junior than men. Women are more likely to have an all female network, which given the seniority of women, typically means that you have a more junior network. And interestingly, we did some research in women in the workplace a number of years ago and asked two vice president, a male and a female who were just promoted, did four or more people help you get here? In other words, have you activated your network and is it working for you to get this promotion? And about 20 percentage point more of the men said yes. And there's this interesting research around. Women are more reticent and uncomfortable mixing networking and professional elements with friendship. And when we do so, we're more likely to wonder, is that a real friend or is this just convenient from a work perspective? In contrast, men are much more comfortable doing the same. So if you know a man knows that person, they've been golfing together, they've had a beer together, I know that's a good guy, the deal is more likely to work out because I already know him. And I think when we are reticent to kind of mix networking with friendship. We're doing ourselves a disservice in getting that experience capital recognized so that we can network, find the opportunities, get that kind of next big leap jump. We in the book call them big moves, right? They're kind of job moves that really stretch you. But to get those opportunities, you need a network. You need people who know you, who are willing to make that bet on you.

[Nicole Kahlil]

So I'm kind of going to think out loud, so forgive me if I'm a little all over the place. On one hand this makes perfect sense. On the other hand, it kind of pisses me off, especially right now as we record this. It's mid February. You know, there is a lot of things going on in the diversity, equity and inclusion space. So what I'm hearing you saying is having a strong network is going to be really important to getting promotions. And I agree with that. And it makes sense. And we're hearing everywhere right now that are people not qualified, our standards being lowered or blah blah, blah. And I feel like screaming, oh my God, it's because you golf with these people or have beer with these people. That's why you're getting the promotion or getting the opportunity. It's not because of your qualifications or your talent or your skill. And all of these programs are just designed to give people with the talent and the skill the opportunity to get an opportunity without having to fucking hang out on the golf course all day. Sorry, is it a double edged sword or am I just overreacting? I mean, yes, it's important and it feels sort of contrary to what we're hearing today. Thoughts and please challenge me.

[Quailyn Ellenrud]

I think diversity and meritocracy go really well together. And I think they're both at their best when they're together. So it's not we want a meritocracy and that's going to hurt diversity. In fact, I think a meritocracy will help diversity, right? When we do research about why does diversity matter, why does it matter on teams? Some of the research from Harvard Business Review is that diverse teams actually solve tough problems better because everybody brings a different set of assumptions, a different background, a different way of working to the problem. And we challenge each other so we can solve a tough problem that other teams have not been able to solve before in a better way. That's the first reason it matters. The second reason is actually dear to my heart because I do a lot of operational transformations and continuous improvement. And it's that diverse teams are more open to the idea that they didn't get the best solution the first time around. This notion of openness to continuous improvement, how do we get 1% better every day, every week? And that just compounds over time. And so I think that is the value of diverse teams that we see kind of in practice. And that's what we want. Right. When diversity and meritocracy come together, that's when they're both at their strongest.

[Nicole Kahlil]

Agreed. And I will just say from this is anecdotal personal experience, I have yet to interact with a woman, especially a woman of color, in any sort of high ranking position or where they're one of the few in their role or one of the only in a room who hasn't not only done what it takes to get there, but it's typically gone way above and beyond. So the meritocracy thing I understand and it just feels for me almost implied when I interact with anybody diverse, it's like, gosh, they almost had a harder climb to get there.

[Quailyn Ellenrud]

If you've made it through both processes and environments that are not made for you, and if you've made it through that right gauntlet over time, you're probably pretty exceptional because you can adapt, you are resilient, you are persistent, and you've made it through. So I love the value of diversity and what it takes to kind of get through that process. And I think those things should absolutely go together.

[Nicole Kahlil]

Okay. And then for those who are beyond the, you know, established, like they might be heading towards retirement and have experienced the broken rung, or maybe you've taken some time out of the business or what have you, what advice do you have for them?

[Quailyn Ellenrud]

Absolutely. I think as you head towards retirement, a few things to keep in mind. There is a financial knowledge gap and women are less comfortable with some of their finances, less involved in their financial decisions. Interestingly, when you take away the option to say I don't know is an answer, the knowledge gap actually kind of disappears. So we actually do know more than we give ourselves credit for, but we're not sure about it. And actually it's not. Making a decision is in fact a decision in the financial world. And so when we are not as involved, we're not making sure that our money works for us. And if you think about kind of nearing retirement, one of the kind of misconceptions is, well, women live longer than men, wonderful, so we must be healthier, but in fact we're not. We do live longer on average, but we actually live 25% more years in poor health. We also spend more money on healthcare and you add all of that up, more money on healthcare, more years in poor health and lower average retirement savings because we've got the majority of part time jobs and the minority of full time jobs and less active financial knowledge and decision making. And that is not a retirement equation that looks good, right? That is what gets us to higher poverty rates for women in those retirement years. And so just being more active and more aware both on the financial side and on the physical health side, physical health, mental health side is so critical to make sure that those retirement years are smooth ones and kind of fully planned for.

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[Nicole Kahlil]

Yeah, it's interesting a lot. So my background is in financial services and I've done a ton of consulting in the finance space. And everything you're saying is absolutely accurate. And I will tell you too how often when I'm working with financial advisors, how often they say that, you know the most common objection or I'm going to put in air quotes excuse that people give when they review their financial plan about taking action on anything that puts them in a better position or gets them closer to what it is that they say that they want is the I want to think about it or I'm unsure. And so I'm so glad, Quillen, that you said that. It's like inaction is an action, it's a choice. And doing nothing is going to cost you so much more than doing something, even the smallest something. So I do think that there is a lot of opportunity for us as women to acknowledge what we do know. We don't need to be financial experts, by the way, and we probably know way more than we're giving ourselves credit for. And then also to get into action, even the smallest action towards what matters, especially as it relates to our finances. So being involved, making some decisions, setting aside some money, whatever it is we need to do. Okay, three stages of building that you talked about. So what advice do you have for young women who are in their entry level jobs maybe in those first five years where you know they're heading towards that potential? First, broken wrung. What should they be thinking about?

[Quailyn Ellenrud]

Yeah, early on we look at the research and each chapter actually combines research and insights that McKinsey has invested in over the last decade or so with success stories of women who have pivoted around these career critical moments. And early on, in those first five years of a career, it's so important to pick the right company and pick a company that is number one, going to invest in your continuing learning. So do they have a percentage of time that they set aside? Do they have an expectation, do they have ongoing learning that's supported and feedback, etc. Second, they believe in cross functional rotation. So it's not that you join in finance and 30, you know, later, 30 years later you're still in finance, but you might rotate across to different groups to different functions. That is important for learning as well. And the third factor of a great company is one that has a very clear strategy and that is kind of Winning relative to competitors. And you can see that typically in the stock price and kind of relative performance. But those are kind of the three outside in factors that we look at in choosing the right company. And when you do that, your odds of actually increasing an income quintile are 50% higher. That's actually the number one thing you can do to increase your lifetime earnings is picking the right company. And I would say even more than the individual job that you're looking at, the company is going to matter because the job and even your boss, right, your boss might be your boss for two years. You might move, they might move, somebody you know, might get fired potentially. But typically a Boss is a two year experience and a company could be 5, 10, 15 years even longer. And so choosing that right company that's going to invest is critical. A few other things that really matter in those first five years, making what we call a bold move. And a bold move is kind of a, you know, uncomfortable leap in your career that makes you a little uncomfortable in terms of the stretch skills that it requires, but really helps you grow and get into the right kind of trajectory. And we measure the percentage of skills that are usually needed in a new job, that's about 25% new skills required in the next job that weren't present in the last job. Anything more than 25% is what we call the bold move. And well calculated bold moves early in your career because then you have the rest of your career to kind of reap. The benefits are a big differentiator for those that over time earn more than the average. And then two other considerations early on. One is around the power alley and the power alley. A power alley type of job is where your company generates revenue, generates profit. So in consulting, it's in the consulting role. In a tech company it would be in a product management role. In a newspaper, it would be be in ad sales, for example. How do you understand how your business, how your industry operates and how it makes money? Just under a third of women start in power alley roles. Just over a third of men do the same. And when you start in those kinds of roles, your lifetime income is about 20% higher. And it's not that you need to stay there across your entire career, but learning how the business works and then potentially rotating to other roles over time is so critical for your perspective and how it grows. And then maybe finally there are so many trends underway right between aging and consumption shifts and then now generative AI over the last couple of years, when you take all of those Trends together, they are impacting our jobs. I think the good news is that there will be more jobs in the next five years. There will be higher skilled jobs, but they'll also require higher education in many cases. And so what are the jobs that are growing and what are the jobs that are shrinking? And how, with a lens to where occupations are growing, do you pick the right job then the right company? Because it's so much easier to make choices with the wind at your back as opposed to the wind in your face. And so the jobs that are growing over the next five to 10 years are jobs in healthcare. No surprise given our aging demographics. And jobs in stem, job in jobs and transportation. And transportation includes everything from last mile delivery to Uber drivers and beyond Lyft. But that transportation category as well as healthcare and stem, the jobs that are shrinking are falling into customer service and sales. So maybe contact centers, food service, so waiters and waitresses, office assistance, administrative assistance, and then production or manufacturing. And three of those four occupations that make up 85% of the job losses that we're going to have over the next time between now and 2030. Three of those occupations are female dominated, right? Customer service and sales, food service and office and administrative assistance. One of those job categories, manufacturing or production, is male dominated. But when you put all of that together, that's why women are 50% more likely to need to change occupations between now and 2030 versus men. Right. It's highly skewed in terms of where are the jobs disappearing. Luckily there are more women also in health care. That's it's more highly concentrated in terms of female jobs. But that transition is an important one to make from shrinking jobs, hopefully to some of the joint growing job categories.

[Nicole Kahlil]

Really important information and honestly fascinating. I want to talk a little bit about those women who are a little bit more established in their careers. You know, they might have experienced the broken rung already, but hopefully it's not too late. So what would you say to them?

[Quailyn Ellenrud]

Absolutely, Nicole. It's never too late. And I think kind of empowering women to make those choices for themselves with the facts and the stories is the goal of the book. So for women in the middle of their career, sort of 10 years in, I think networking, treating networking not as a bad word, not as a kind of unpleasant activity, but something that helps you meet new people that you might find interesting, learn about new occupations, new industries. And when you activate your network and are a connector, I think that can be really fulfilling. But equalizing the playing field in terms of your Network, I think, is critical. We talked a bit about this earlier. I think over the next five and 10 years, there's two skills that all of us will need more of, and those are technological skills and social and emotional skills. And when I say technological skills, I don't mean can you code? Because Genai can code better and faster than we will learn to in the next 10 years very easily. But I mean, how do you interact with technology effectively to do your job better? Whether that's kind of creating podcasts, whether that's being a nurse, a travel planner, etc. All of us need to use these technological skills and get much more comfortable with them. The other skill, though, is social and emotional skills. And those are, can you build trust? Can you build a relationship? Can you inspire confidence? Can you raise an aspiration? Can you see a human interaction and react with empathy? These are quintessentially human things, and generative AI, at least so far, can't do them very well. And so the complementary skills become more and more valuable. And so if we can, all across a career, build more technological skills and social and emotional skills, I think that puts you in a very flexible space to jump to different occupations, depending on what the need might be. And then finally, entrepreneurship. And I think we sometimes think about entrepreneurship as too black or white. Right. Are you going to strike out on your own and start your own business or not? And in reality, you can show and build entrepreneurship skills in a big company, right? You can start a new product, a new initiative, you can kind of initiate things that didn't exist before. And so how do you build entrepreneurship skills and signal those as well is critical.

[Nicole Kahlil]

Okay, Quailen, you had mentioned earlier about the time that we as women take away from our careers more than our male counterparts. I have to imagine maternity leave, motherhood is at least one big contributing factor to that. So how do we use motherhood to our advantage? Because I gotta tell you, I never underestimate a mom's ability to get something done right, like talk about leadership skills or influencing skills. So how do we make motherhood, as you said, experience capital, how do we include that in it or use it to our advantage when it comes to our careers, not having it be seen as this thing that's detracting or taking away from it.

[Quailyn Ellenrud]

Absolutely, yeah. The ability of mothers to multitask and kind of manage so many things at once is incredible. I think it's around planning what happens before, let's say a maternity leave during a maternity leave afterwards, as you on ramp. How can you plan to build experience, capital during those periods. How do you recognize the skills that you've built, whether that's multitasking or negotiating with a toddler is an extreme skill that can actually be applied to the workplace. But what are these skills that you're building, and how do you use them to increase your momentum as you're coming back from a maternity leave, as opposed to allow that to slow you down? We also talk about, though, the motherhood penalty and the fatherhood bonus. So women, when they have children and the penalty is more extreme, with more children, can expect lower lifetime earnings. Men can expect actually more income. They're perceived as more mature, more stable, more reliable when they have children and more children. And we see this in the numbers kind of globally. How do we both understand that data and counteract that? Because when we give two identical resumes, John Doe and Jane Doe, exactly identical font type, font size, bullet points, and all we change is one bullet point that says active Parent Teacher association member, for that woman, I think she's something like 87% less likely to get the job. She's also less likely to get promoted. And that's because there's this strong parenthood penalty. Men and women will doubt that she will be as dedicated of an employee because she is a dedicated parent. And so that association is a real challenge to overcome. And just being aware of the facts as you plan for motherhood and maternity leave can really shift some of that dynamic. And then we actually explore bias more broadly, and that's unconscious bias in the example of this kind of parenthood resume. But also conscious bias, external bias. Right. When somebody sees you, what do they think and what do they ascribe to you? But also internal bias. How have we internalized some of the assumptions around leadership and what that looks like potential, and, you know, what people are capable of going forward? So the bias chapter is quite useful, both as a woman in the workplace, but also as an ally. If you're a male colleague and you want to learn how to be a better, more proactive ally, I think that chapter in particular is really valuable just to name the biases and then get practical about strategies that you can take. When you see this in action, what do you do to confront it and minimize some of those biases?

[Nicole Kahlil]

Yeah, I love that you have a chapter with tools and tips that we can use when we face bias, because, you know, it's called unconscious bias for a reason. And so I think I would imagine the first step is naming it or knowing it. There has to be some Element of defensiveness. That happens for a lot of people. So navigating through that and then advocating for yourself. You know, I think what you just said about the bias of motherhood not being the same or parenthood not being the same, you know, it's interesting, the bias in both directions. So, like, if my husband puts that he's, you know, my kid's basketball coach on his resume, which he wouldn't. But let's just say the bias is that he gets the credit of still being career committed, where the reality is his family is absolutely more important than his work. No doubts about it. And I would imagine that that is true for a lot of fathers. Many fathers, most fathers, at least the good ones. Whereas, you know, women, of course, our families are more important than our jobs. Come on. I mean, that should be true for all of us. And yet I still see so many moms bring so much to their careers, to their professions, to their purposes. So can you give us maybe some tactical tips specifically to this bias of some things that we could do, say, or think to help change the bias in both directions?

[Quailyn Ellenrud]

Absolutely. So I think one, you can kind of normalize talking about it, and that may be some of our male colleagues talking about it more frequently so that it's kind of accepted and normal. I also think what women can do is appreciate and recognize the bias in each of us internally. So you can go online to the implicit association test and understand that when you more quickly associate the word family with women, you're also more likely to prefer an equally qualified man for the job than a woman. And that happens for men. That happens for women. Right. We all have bias internalized. And it's more important to just understand on what dimensions of gender, race, socioeconomic level, et cetera, education, age. Right. What are all of the dimensions that are most strong for you so that we can recognize it in ourselves. As you said, make the unconscious conscious and then work systematically to reduce it.

[Nicole Kahlil]

And what was that website again? I want to make sure to put.

[Quailyn Ellenrud]

That in shots, the implicit association test online. It's a free association test and lots of different dimensions of gender, race, age.

[Nicole Kahlil]

All right, friends, we're going to add that in show notes. I know. I'm going to go do it because I'm very aware we all have bias. Like, that's just the deal. And it's not necessarily always a bad thing. It's more just the making the unconscious conscious, being aware and deciding. Is this a bias that works for me? Is this one I want to keep. Is this one that has me practicing empathy for other people. And if the answer is no, then we have the opportunity to do something about it, right?

[Quailyn Ellenrud]

Absolutely, Nicole. And the question I ask myself is, so I had that first reaction, and I think this saying of, you know, you're not necessarily responsible for your first reaction or thought, but you are responsible for your second thought is important. And so then I ask myself, would I have had that same reaction if that were an older white man? Would I have had that same reaction if that were a younger black woman? Right. And just exploring the dimensions of what was that reaction in me? Because we all have kind of mental shortcuts that have served us well through evolution. But what was that? And how do I get underneath that to explore better and make sure that that was a valid kind of quick reaction?

[Nicole Kahlil]

Yeah. So great tips in there. One thing that I have been practicing is when I see. When I get upset about somebody doing something that I disagree with, I often ask myself how I would feel if somebody I agreed with did it. And that is a really good way for me to determine whether or not how I feel about the thing versus whether or not I have a bias about who's doing the thing.

[Quailyn Ellenrud]

That's a great tip.

[Nicole Kahlil]

And it's fascinating how often I'm like, shit, I would be. I'd be okay with it if I agreed with the person. So, okay, now I gotta get myself together. But anyway, Kailan, fascinating conversation. Thank you for the incredible work that the three of you did and for writing this book again. It is called the Broken Rung. You can go to brokenrunbook.com we'll put the link to that, the Implicit association test, and all their ways to find and follow Qualen and the book in show notes. Thank you. Thank you for being here.

[Quailyn Ellenrud]

Thank you, Nicole. My pleasure.

[Nicole Kahlil]

All right, friend. No one is saying that you have to climb the corporate ladder if you'd rather build your own, take an entirely different route, or set the whole structure on fire and start fresh. I support you. Hell, I applaud you. But for those of you who want to climb that do want a seat at that table, the absolute bare minimum expectation should be that your ladder is solid, it reaches as high, and that all the rungs are as secure as the next guys. And while I'm not the decider of what woman's work looks like for you or for any other woman but me, I am the decider of what we stand for on this podcast. So let me be clear. Diversity, equity, and inclusion is absolutely woman's work. Because woman's work is both individual and collective. We choose for ourselves and we stand for other women to be able to do the same. That's it. That's the deal. So climb. I know it's hard. I know it can be frustrating, disheartening and exhausting. But climb anyway. And know that we'll be holding the ladder for you. Because that is woman work. I'm Neil, founder of Kali Room. When I found ceramics, I realized my calling was to give others the space to be creative. So I set out to open my own studio.

[Quailyn Ellenrud]

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[Nicole Kahlil]

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[Quailyn Ellenrud]

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