Podcast Summary: This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
Episode: The Broken Rung: When The Career Ladder Breaks For Women with Kweilin Ellingrud | 291
Release Date: March 17, 2025
Introduction
In episode 291 of This Is Woman's Work, host Nicole Kalil engages in a profound conversation with Quailyn Ellenrud, one of the senior partners at McKinsey and co-author of the book The Broken Rung: When The Career Ladder Breaks For Women and How They Can Succeed In Spite of It. The discussion delves into the systemic barriers that hinder women's career progression, particularly focusing on the pivotal moment known as the "broken rung."
Understanding the Broken Rung
Nicole Kalil opens the discussion by highlighting a critical issue in women's career advancement: the "broken rung." She states:
“Women outperform men in school. Higher GPAs, more degrees, more master's degrees. So this is not an intelligence or academic issue... For every hundred men promoted, only 81 women make that jump.”
— Nicole Kalil [00:57]
Quailyn Ellenrud clarifies that the broken rung refers to the first promotion to a managerial position, where women disproportionately face obstacles:
“The broken rung is the problem. For every hundred men, it's only 81 women that are being promoted... It is the single biggest obstacle holding women back from senior leadership.”
— Quailyn Ellenrud [04:15]
Experience Capital and Its Disparities
The conversation shifts to the concept of "experience capital," defined as the knowledge and wisdom accumulated over a career. Ellenrud emphasizes that women often accumulate less experience capital than men due to factors like career breaks:
“In a 10-year period where men are gaining 10 years of experience on the job, women are on average getting about 8.6 years because we have more career breaks...”
— Quailyn Ellenrud [07:23]
This gap in experience capital manifests early in careers, affecting long-term earnings and advancement opportunities.
The Role of Networking
Ellenrud discusses the differences in networking between men and women, noting that women often have narrower and less senior networks:
“Women's networks tend to be more narrow and more junior than men. About 20 percentage points more of the men said yes to having multiple people help them get promotions.”
— Quailyn Ellenrud [08:40]
She highlights the importance of building broad and influential networks to access higher-level opportunities and "big moves."
Diversity and Meritocracy
Amidst discussions on networking, Nicole brings up concerns about diversity and meritocracy, questioning whether reliance on networks undermines merit-based advancement:
“I feel like screaming, oh my God, it's because you golf with these people or have beer with these people. That's why you're getting the promotion...”
— Nicole Kalil [12:18]
Ellenrud counters by asserting that diversity and meritocracy are not mutually exclusive and, in fact, complement each other:
“When diversity and meritocracy come together, that's when they're both at their strongest. Diverse teams solve tough problems better...”
— Quailyn Ellenrud [12:18]
Advice for Career Stages
The duo provides actionable advice tailored to different career stages:
-
Early Career (First Five Years):
- Choose the Right Company: Opt for organizations that invest in continuous learning and offer cross-functional rotations.
- Make Bold Moves: Take on roles that stretch your skills beyond comfort zones.
- Start in Power Alley Roles: Engage in positions that directly contribute to revenue and profit to enhance lifetime earnings.
“Picking the right company that's going to invest is critical. A few other things that matter in those first five years are making a bold move and starting in power alley roles.”
— Quailyn Ellenrud [20:22] -
Established Careers (Mid to Late Stages):
- Expand Your Network: Treat networking as a tool for meeting new people and exploring opportunities.
- Enhance Technological and Emotional Skills: Develop skills that complement technological advancements and foster human connections.
- Embrace Entrepreneurship Within Roles: Initiate new projects or products to demonstrate leadership and innovation.
“All of us will need more technological skills and social and emotional skills. Building entrepreneurship skills is also critical.”
— Quailyn Ellenrud [26:11]
Motherhood and Career Advancement
Addressing the intersection of motherhood and career progression, Ellenrud discusses the "motherhood penalty" where women face career setbacks due to childbearing:
“Women, when they have children, can expect lower lifetime earnings. Men, on the other hand, can expect more income and are perceived as more stable.”
— Quailyn Ellenrud [29:20]
She offers strategies to leverage the skills developed through motherhood, such as multitasking and negotiation, to enhance professional capabilities:
“Recognize the skills you've built, whether that's multitasking or negotiating with a toddler, and apply them in the workplace.”
— Quailyn Ellenrud [29:20]
Confronting Biases
The discussion moves to identifying and addressing both conscious and unconscious biases that impede women's advancement:
“Normalize talking about bias, appreciate and recognize biases within ourselves, and work systematically to reduce them.”
— Quailyn Ellenrud [33:37]
Nicole adds practical tips for mitigating biases, such as challenging one's reactions and advocating for oneself:
“When I get upset about someone doing something I disagree with, I ask myself how I would feel if someone I agreed with did it.”
— Nicole Kalil [35:16]
Conclusion
Nicole and Ellenrud wrap up the episode by reinforcing the importance of a solid support system and collective effort to dismantle the broken rung. Nicole emphasizes that diversity, equity, and inclusion are integral to redefining women's work:
“Diversity, equity, and inclusion is absolutely woman's work. We choose for ourselves and we stand for other women to be able to do the same.”
— Nicole Kalil [37:01]
Ellenrud reiterates that empowering women with knowledge and strategies is essential for overcoming systemic barriers and achieving career success.
Key Takeaways
- Broken Rung: The critical challenge lies in the first promotion to management, where women are disproportionately overlooked.
- Experience Capital: Women often accumulate less on-the-job experience due to career breaks, impacting long-term advancement.
- Networking: Building broad and influential networks is vital for accessing higher-level career opportunities.
- Diversity and Meritocracy: These two concepts complement each other, enhancing problem-solving and continuous improvement within teams.
- Career Advice: Tailored strategies are essential for different career stages, emphasizing the importance of company choice, skill development, and networking.
- Motherhood Penalty: Recognizing and leveraging the skills gained through motherhood can mitigate career setbacks, while addressing societal biases is crucial.
- Bias Awareness: Identifying and actively working to reduce both conscious and unconscious biases can foster a more equitable workplace.
Notable Quotes
-
Nicole Kalil:
“Women outperform men in school... It is what our guests today call the broken rung, the single biggest obstacle holding women back from senior leadership.”
[00:57] -
Quailyn Ellenrud:
“The broken rung is the problem. For every hundred men, it's only 81 women that are being promoted.”
[04:15] -
Quailyn Ellenrud:
“When diversity and meritocracy come together, that's when they're both at their strongest.”
[12:18] -
Quailyn Ellenrud:
“Recognize the skills you've built... and apply them in the workplace.”
[29:20] -
Nicole Kalil:
“Diversity, equity, and inclusion is absolutely woman's work.”
[37:01]
Resources Mentioned
- Book: The Broken Rung: When The Career Ladder Breaks For Women and How They Can Succeed In Spite of It by Quailyn Ellenrud, Lorena Yee, and Maria Martinez. brokenrunbook.com
- Implicit Association Test: implicit.harvard.edu
Final Thoughts
This episode underscores the importance of recognizing and addressing the early-stage barriers that prevent women from ascending the corporate ladder. By focusing on building experience capital, expanding networks, and actively combating biases, women can overcome the broken rung and achieve sustained career growth. Nicole Kalil and Quailyn Ellenrud provide both insightful analysis and practical strategies, empowering listeners to navigate and reshape the landscape of women's work.