← This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
The Collaborative Co-Parent (How To Put Your Kids First) with Gabriella Pomare | 401
00:35:02
A bold, no-BS conversation on divorce, co-parenting, and redefining modern families—this episode breaks down how to put kids first, communicate better, and build healthier relationships after separation.
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- [00:00]
A
As an entrepreneur, one of my biggest learnings has been this there is no magical unicorn person out there who can do everything. And also I don't want a huge team of people to manage, which puts me in a bit of a pickle because my business spans operations, strategy and analytics, marketing and a wide variety of tech. And no one person is great at all of it. Which is exactly why I've leaned into hiring freelancers. Upwork is a one step platform to find, hire and pay expert freelancers. So instead of trying to force one person to do everything, or worse, doing it all myself, I can bring in the exact expertise I need when I need it. Upwork helps grow your business by giving you fast access to specialized talent across 125 plus categories so you can fill skill gaps, launch projects faster and scale support up or down without committing to full time headcount. Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's up w o r k.com upwork.com
- [01:13]
B
grownups if there's a child in your life who is interested in, curious about or fascinated by people and places from history, then my podcast the Past and the Curious might just be a hit in your home. From the invention of microscopes to world traveling dogs to Fashions of the 1890s, Gold Rush Ghost towns and audiences going wild for walking competitions, we've got a little bit of it all. Hosted by children's author and museum educator Mick Sullivan. That's me. The show is fun, funny, engaging, honest, and beloved by kids and parents alike. Find the past and the curious at all. All the usual podcast places.
- [01:53]
A
Quick pause. We expanded to YouTube because we keep hearing I needed this 20 years ago and the next generation shouldn't have to wait. So tell the young women in your world who are scrolling and watching to subscribe to this is woman's work on YouTube. I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's Work in the world today. And if we're going to keep challenging outdated expectations, we have to talk about one of the biggest, dustiest relics of them all. The idea that the right, best family is one mom, one dad, one marriage, one magical, happily life. And until death do you part. The fantasy that marriage is synonymous with happiness and that all children simply thrive because their parents stay Married is, well, complete and utter bullshit. Kids don't magically flourish in households full of abuse, neglect, dysfunction, disconnection or silent resentment just because there's a shared last name and a legal document. And the myth that stepping away from a relationship that cannot or will not serve both people, that it's some kind of failure, is also bullshit. Families look differently today, not worse. Different blended families can be extraordinary. Multi home families can be stable, committed. Single parents are freaking heroes. Listen, two parents are not automatically better than one, three or four. More complicated, sure. Universally bad, not even close. Like most things, it's how you do it that matters. So today we're talking about how to be a collaborative co parent. And we're not assuming the breakdown of a family, but the recreation of one. One with new rules. One where the kids aren't in the middle, they're at the center. And one where adults choose clarity over chaos, communication over combat, and healing over the never ending urge to win. And we're doing it with somebody who has lived it, practiced it, taught it, and literally wrote a book on it. Gabriela Pomere is a family lawyer, award winning author and internationally recognized co parenting advocate who has spent more than a decade helping families navigate separation with dignity and sanity. She's a partner at the Norton Law Group in Sydney and has handled everything from high conflict cases to international relocation disputes. And her debut book, the Collaborative co Parent, is already earning global acclaim. Blending her legal expertise with her own journey, Gabriela is leading a movement to redefine separation not as the end of a family, but the beginning of a new one built with intention, boundaries and compassion. Gabriela, as I mentioned in my introduction, you have both professional and personal experience with separation and the creation of a new family. So I'd love to start by asking what's in your experience the first step in moving from conflict to collaboration, especially when there are hurt feelings and anger and I have to imagine some temptation to get petty in some cases. The word collaboration I think is key. What are some steps to do that?
- [05:17]
B
Can I firstly just say, wow, I loved that introduction. I felt that so much and it was so real and so true. So thank you. I just had to say that.
- [05:26]
A
My pleasure. Thank you.
- [05:29]
B
Now look, I think it's really hard. The reality is when you first separate, you are not going to be what I call a collaborative co parent. It takes some people weeks. The reality is, though it takes most people months or even years, it took me, I would say a good year before I could even step back and say, I think I'M doing this a little bit wrong. Even though I'm a family lawyer and I felt like I knew everything, I genuinely didn't. I didn't understand how hard it would be to look at this person who I thought I was going to spend my whole life with, you know, who I thought I was going to have the family holidays with and. And grow a family with and have this child with and say, now we need to still communicate and work things out together, even though we're not living together. And maybe we don't even like each other anymore. So, firstly, it takes time. That's number one. And I think what makes someone want to be collaborative is that catapult, that moment that shocks you almost when you say, shit, we need to do this better for our kid. And it might be that something's come up at school. It might be, sadly, that you start seeing your child suffering or something internally just isn't working. So it's usually that gotcha moment where someone says, all right, we're the adults now. It's time to, as hard as it is, you might have had an affair, there might be conflict. There's probably a reason why you broke up. Forget that. I get that. Work through it. That's hard. And that's going to be its own healing journey. But put a kid first, that is what has to be at the center of your mind. And it takes someone to really make that active choice. You know, you need to make that choice. It's not just going to come naturally.
- [07:05]
A
So I appreciate so much you saying to give yourself time and that it's going to take time and that this is not easy. It is absolutely hard. And I think, you know, this idea of putting our kids first or having them be at the center of our lives comes fairly naturally to a lot of women. But in this situation, or maybe not naturally, maybe societally, we have pressure to do that. I find most women are constantly thinking about what's best for their kids. But now you're in a time where something is going on in your relationship that feels very intimate between you and one other person, even though the kids are involved. So I guess my question is any tips or questions or things that people could do to put their kids at the center, even during all of the turmoil. So maybe to prevent it having to be a big gotcha moment or that your child is suffering.
- [08:10]
B
So I think the reality is that to do that, you need to start working on your communication from the outset. Because for me, and a lot of what I write about in my book. And a lot of what I speak about is this idea of communication and what I often see and look what I experience myself too. And what a lot of my clients experience is communication breaks down early because of things like emotion and grief. We are hurting, we're healing ourselves. And whilst you're still healing, you're finding it difficult to co parent, to get on for the sake of your child. So if what you can do from the beginning, from the moment you separate, is say, I'm going to keep my communication really neutral, I'm going to keep my child at the forefront. And what that means is any decision I make, forget how it affects me. So many of us as parents and as mums as especially, we're trying to do what we think is best, what's going to work for us. And I find with dads especially, it's like this idea of fairness and what's right and what's mine. It's not. So when you're making those decisions and when you're communicating, always think, is this genuinely benefiting my child? Number one. Number two, when you're about to send a text message or an email, you're having that phone call, think if a judge was reading this, if a friend was reading this, or most importantly, if my child was reading this, would they be proud of me? So tone it down. I sat with a client yesterday and she was engaging in this text war and I said, just stop. I said, because if your son was reading that message, not that he should, but if he was, gosh, he would be upset, he would not be proud of you. Keep it businesslike. So yeah, a businesslike relationship with your co parent through communication and decision making is gonna avoid that gotcha moment because from the outset you're doing things with your child in mind.
- [09:50]
A
That is such good advice. Thank you. I know in your book you talk about four modes of communication and I just want to hone in on that because as you said, communication is so important. Could you tell us about those four modes briefly? Obviously, we want people to go get the book and dive into it deeper. But tell us a little bit about those four modes.
- [10:12]
B
Yeah, I think they're so important and it's a big thing because as I said before, as soon as that communication breaks down, that co parenting relationship breaks down and your child is impacted. So they listen, pause, reflect and respond. And listen doesn't just mean, hey, my co parent's talking, I'm listening, I'm pretending to. It means actually hearing what that person is saying. So if they're speaking to you and it might be something that causes anger, it might be a really soft point for you, something difficult. But hear it out, give that person the respect of, I'm here, I'm listening, tell me what you want to say and then pause. And that power of the pause is so important, it's probably the utmost important part of any relationship. I don't think this even, you know, matters whether you're getting divorced, separated, co parenting or in a business or whatever, but just pause. You do not need to respond immediately. You need to digest what's being said to you and actually think about, okay, I have the power now as to what comes next. I can either make this high conflict and come back with something really difficult, make this a bit of a war, or I can go away and think about the most appropriate way for forward that's going to benefit my child. And then we start to reflect. So we reflect on, okay, do I pause now for three minutes, three days, how long do I need to come back with what's being said to me? And then I go back and I respond with something that I've thought about with respect. And that's going to move the issue forward as co parents. And I think any relationship that's a little bit high conflict or that's had its difficulties, you automatically just want to fight back. You know, you've heard something and you're probably just hearing the negative in what's being said to you. And that's just a dynamic often of a separated couple. We're not all best friends and even when we are, there's still this underlying need of I want to win. I want to be the person that comes out of this conversation having either got what I want or I've won or I'm the one, you know, so go away. What's going to benefit my child? Are they going to be happy with what I'm saying? And at the end of the day, who cares if I'm right or wrong? Who cares if I've won? What's my child getting out of this? Are we doing something that will benefit them in their long term future?
- [12:22]
A
I love that phenomenal advice. And I know somebody listening is like, okay, that's all well and good, but my ex is a dick or a narcissist or a psychopath or whatever we want to call this person, right? And I think that there is some truth to you can do everything according to what you're saying, but this is a still a two person relationship even if you're separating. So Any advice for how to deal with somebody who isn't putting the children at the center and who isn't making this even moderately easier than it needs to be? Any thoughts there?
- [13:03]
B
Absolutely. And you're so true. And you're right, because I do see this all the time. And it's probably more common than the couple who says, hey, we can get along. And that's why so many women do leave relationships because you get to that point where you can't live with that person anymore and it's not healthy and it's not healthy for your children. So all you really can do is model yourself how to be a collaborative, you know, a positive co parent and put in place really strong boundaries. Boundaries are everything. And so many women come to me and say, I can't put these boundaries in place because it's going to ignite further conflict, you know, it's going to create rage in him, it's going to make him angry. And I say, so what you need to put in place the boundaries to help you. You're probably the primary parent, that's the reality of it. And you need to do what's going to serve you first. So firstly your health, your mental well being, all of that is important. And then we say, how do I do it better for my kids? So I had a client yesterday, exact situation, very narcissistic, very difficult ex husband. And she said, but my girls need my dad. And that's true. Kids generally, when there hasn't been significant family violence and drugs and those sorts of issues do need both parents to an extent. And she said, how do I do it? Though we cannot communicate, I'm getting barrages of text messages that are harassing me that I feel genuinely intimidated and scared of. So he came up with a plan of how can we make this work for their children. And it was using a co parenting app. And a lot of people might know what's out there. There are different ones. A good one's. One's called our family Wizard. So I said, we only use the app moving forward now. And the good thing about that is it's got like a red and a green light as to when you're communicating. So if you're saying something that's high conflict, it'll stop you and say, no, you can' write that you're not allowed to send it. If you're trying to guilt trip the other parent. It'll also monitor that to say no. There's a better way of writing that. It seems very monitored. It seems fake, but Often parents need that. And if it can control the communication and help parents limit what they're saying to focus on a child and make decisions and keep it businesslike, maybe that works for them. And I said to her, otherwise, block his number. You don't deserve or need to be getting barrages of text messages harassing you. That number is blocked. It is reserved for a emergencies only and our protocol moving forward will be using the app. Other boundaries are things like I simply won't respond if it's after 8pm at night. I'm not going to let you affect my sleep, affect my night. You will get a response tomorrow. So easy for me to say. But if you can try and put in place some boundaries and take back a bit of that control, you're the person who gets to decide what the co parenting relationship looks like. My book doesn't have all the rules. It's got some tips as to how to do it better. But at the end of the day you know what's going to work for your family. Family and the dynamic of your relationship with your ex.
- [15:54]
A
Yeah, I did not know apps like this existed. And what an amazing tool to have, especially for situations like this where somebody just refuses to respect boundaries or really, really wants to push buttons. So can you give us. I don't know why, but holidays keep popping up in my brain as times where boundaries might need to be discussed and decided and held to. But I'm sure there is a lot of examples. What are maybe some things that you see come up fairly frequently that you might want to think about to have boundaries around if you're about to, or if you're going through a separation?
- [16:35]
B
Yeah, look, I think holidays, whether that's Christmas, birthdays, any sort of special occasion is difficult. And I do think it goes back to the idea of we were a family. We had this idea idea, this dream of doing it together. We were going to have the big birthday parties, we were going to have our family at our homes and now we're not. And you might be by yourself or it might be even more complicated where all of a sudden you've got a new partner or your ex has a new partner and you've blended families and there are stepchildren involved. And one of the most difficult parts, and I'm sure it's something we'll get to, is when there is this new person that breaks down their relationship as well. So when you've got special occasions, I think it's so important to plan early. I think kids need to know where they're going to be and it can't be a big debate. A high conflict situation. A week before Christmas, you know the day before a child's birthday where kids still don't know, am I going to mum's, am I going to dad's? Is it okay to spend time with both of them? Will one parent get upset if I want to spend time with the other parent? So plan early, have change over location, change over time in place early so everyone knows and be clear on it. But having said that, a bit of flexibility as well, particularly over the holidays and those sorts of things. When you've got Christmas, even Thanksgiving, plans don't always go to place. There might be weather issues, a celebration might go over a little bit. You need to be somewhat flexible in that. Send a message, be courteous, I'm half an hour late. But don't fight back a war and ruin your child's Christmas or special occasion because the other parent is half an hour late. We have to put up with that sometimes, okay? But I find that those sorts of situations are difficult. So communication is going to be so important at that time of year. Planning and letting your child know it's okay to spend time with their other parent, that's so important. We don't want our children having that guilt. And they often carry that guilt around the holidays because they're trying to make everyone happy. They should be free to spend time with whoever's family they want for the time they want. And the reality is kids don't know half the time whether Christmas is the 25th of December or the 28th. So if you don't celebrate necessarily how you used to on Christmas or a birthday, do the celebration the next day. Make it just as exciting and special for your child so they know that they're still valued. My parents still love me just as much. I still get to celebrate just as much. But hey, I'm lucky. Now I get two Christmases, two birthdays. Find the joy in a situation that's more unique.
- [19:03]
A
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- [22:38]
B
Right? Or absolutely. Like, can we dress up, still celebrate birth?
- [22:43]
A
Totally. Okay, what about communicating with your children? Communicating, like when? What to share, when to not overshare. Like, how do we communicate with our children about how this new family is going to look? Because it's still their parents, but it's a new arrangement. So how do you communicate or set that up as well as you can with your children?
- [23:09]
B
It's such a confusing time and it really comes down to the age and the stage of development, the maturity of children. A lot of parents come to me and they have this idea of we need to sit down together as a family. We need a family meeting to tell them what's going on. That's not true. And if you're separating, you're divorcing, it's high conflict. You probably can't sit down as a family and jointly tell them what's going on because you have different opinions and you probably don't agree with the reason behind the separation or, or what's the plan moving forward. So my view is you do need to tell your children. I've had too many people who continue living in the same house and live in this fantasy land of we'll just not tell them. We'll live together, we'll be separated, they'll think everything's okay. Kids know. Kids pick up on everything from body language to communication. They know when mum and dad are fighting. They know when mum and dad are sleeping in separate bedrooms and no longer have that love. They don't hold hands anymore. They don't sit next to each other at a table, they don't smile at each other. Why would we put our children through that growing up thinking that's normal? What's normal is, I personally think parents living in different homes who are happy enjoying life, doing things that make them happy. And that is an example of a happy, healthy parent to then model, you know, what an adult should look like, what life should look like for their children. So when you're telling your children they don't need to know the ins and outs of what happened. It could have been the worst affair. There might be a high conflict dynamic. Someone's probably done something really awful. Your kids don't need to know that because as soon as you start putting onto your children the reason behind the separation and how awful their other parent is, they start to say, hang on. If you think my other parent is so bad, you mustn't like part of me because I'm part of that parent. I'm 50% one parent, 50% the other parent. Am I the bad one? Do I have some of that in me? So the biggest thing, and I know it's hard because I do it myself, I'll do the occasional eye roll when my son says something about his dad. And then I stop myself and I say, oh, that wasn't good because he's picked up that whatever he's just told me didn't sit well with me. And these things are always gonna happen and we can only learn from them. So first thing, don't let them know what's going on. To really reassure your children about their future, they are scared. It wouldn't matter if they're 5 years old or 15, they wanna know what' Am I moving house? Am I going to have to find new friends? Can I not be in the same soccer team? Am I changing school? So that reassurance is really important. Whatever the plan is going to be there at the forefront. We love you. We're going to do our best to keep things stable and secure for you. Same school. If you can stay in the house, great. If you can't, we're moving to a new house. How exciting is that? New bedroom, new sheets, pick some new toys. We'll decorate it how you want. You don't want your emotion coming into it. So if you are moving homes, I'm sure it is causing you lots of grief. It is one of the most difficult periods of your life. But don't share it with your child because they will carry that grief and that guilt. They often then start thinking, is it my fault? Did I cause this? Was I the reason for my parents separation? So keep them out of it as much as you can. Mask your emotion from them to protect them. They don't need to be involved. They're not now your best friend. I've seen too many clients, you know, taking their kids on coffee dates and letting everything out. You know, your dad did this. I'm not getting my child support. We're not going on a holiday because your dad said no. And I do put some of those examples in my book. And I say, I get it, it was hard. Stop. Stop. Because that will impact your child. So much of social science tells us that it's a child's experience of their parents separation and how much they're involved, what they heard, what they were told, what they saw, that impacts their future, their relationships, when they're married, when they have boyfriends, girlfriends, partners, and then when they start to parent. And so I think if there's one thing anyone can take away is remember that what I'm doing now will impact them later. Their little brains are picking up on everything that they're being taught and that will impact the way they do things when they're adults.
- [27:21]
A
There were so many like mic drop important points in there. And you hit a few personal pet peeves of mine. For example. It's a pet peeve of mine when people call their kids their BFFs or like my best friend. It's like, they're gonna have lots of friends. You should have lots of friends. They're only gonna ever have one person who birthed them. Like, why minimize the relationship you have by calling it something else? That doesn't elevate the relationship in my mind, it minimizes it. And the idea that we would share with our children as if they were our best friends is just mind blasting to me. You also said on the onset of that that I want to reiterate that kids are way more aware than we think. That is also a personal belief of mine. I think they notice, I think they pick up on, I think they know what's going on no matter what we say so much more than we think. And I also believe that we all, but kids especially, learn through experience and observation best we can tell somebody something until we're blue in the face, but we learn best through experience and observation. And so when we think of the relationships we want our children to have, when we think of the desire that I think all of us have to see our children in healthy relationships, no matter what the status is healthy, right? Would be my first choice. And so I feel personally obligated to do my best to demonstrate the healthiest relationship that I can. And if I can't do that with the person I thought I could, then it is in my best, my child's best interest to do that in a different way. And again, this is my personal bias because anecdotally I was raised by parents who got divorced after 50 years of marriage and probably stayed together for 30 of those years. And I put in air quotes for the kids. But as a child in that relationship, I didn't see any benefit. If anything, it messed me up more than it helped me. So, you know, just feel like there were so many really good points in there that I wanted to reiterate. I have two more questions. One around any thoughts or advice for people who are maybe dating in a co parent situation or step parents? Like, like not the people who are getting separated, but other adults who come into these relationships into these newly created families. Any advice for them? Let's start there.
- [29:56]
B
Look, it's tough. I'm repartnered. I've now got a one year old with my new partner. So we've got a little blended family and it's difficult and I think from the outset and if I'm trying to put myself in his shoes and what he's had to go through, you know, this might not come across fantastic but you know what you're getting yourself into to an extent. Don't date someone with children and with an ex unless you are prepared to be a role model in that child's life. Because the reality is you're coming into a family, that family exists. Don't try and pretend you will never have to come into contact with the child's parent. You will. Even if those two parents hate each other, you will. There will be a school event, there will be a birthday. There will be some special occasion where you need to show face and smile, smile and pretend everyone likes each other. So don't think that you've found this person. You're going to be together forever and we're going to block out their old life. That's never going to happen. There will always be that other part of life and I've struggled with that in my own relationship where I say I have this past and yes, I'm not with that person anymore. But we are going to still have to be on the phone. We ring each other to talk about our son and his school week and things that are happening. We will text each other, we will share photos. And same for my partner, my ex husband, sorry, I think he struggled with his partner who often says, why are you sending her photos? Why do you guys have to text each other photos? Because that's important to us. I'd like to see what my son's doing on the weekend when I don't have him. A little photo of him at the park makes me happy and vice versa. So I think that's the first thing. The second thing is you will be sharing your time with your new partner, the person you are dating. So don't think that this person's going to always be free, will be able to drop everything for you if they have a child or Children. So it's really going to be this dynamic of, you know, there are a lot of meaning. I'm dating a single mom, so I get my five minutes a month, things like that. And that's the reality of it. You know, a single mom or dad probably has to drop everything for something at school. If a child is sick and they need to be a lot more child focused in the way that they organize dating, it's, it's hard, you know, can I go out at night? Does it have to be a day date? Can I do sleepovers? If I'm going to do sleepovers, where is my child? So there's a lot more to think about. I think dating again after separation is difficult because you're juggling so much. And I know that when you're coming into a new family, it's hard, but it's also hard on the person who's dating. There's that guilt of I want to make my, you know, new person, the person I'm dating happy. But is my child okay? Is it the right time? There's just so much to it. Yeah.
- [32:24]
A
Okay, my last question is around observing people who are doing this really well. Again, we acknowledge this. It's incredibly hard. It is a two person thing. So you can do all of the right things and it's still might not look good on a social media post or whatever. But I do observe that there are some people who seem to be navigating this fairly well, at least outside looking in. Maybe they do holidays together or there seems to be a great deal of support or like they even become friends with a new, you know, person in the relationship. From your work and observation, are there any things that these people are just doing differently that are making all the difference or are they just more mature or. I don't know, whatever.
- [33:17]
B
I think you hit the nail on the head. Is it maturity? I guess it is really being able to take that active step of putting your kids first. I don't know how you do it, but really again, it's going to come down then to the dynamic of the entire relationship. So. So whilst you aren't re partnered, you probably can. If you're saying I want to do this and your ex is saying I want to do this easy. We're two people who have made that decision. Once new partners come into it, what's that dynamic like? Is my new partner going to want to hang out with my ex husband, his new partner, Is that going to cause some friction? Does my new partner approve the way my ex husband Parents or does things, and will that cause new friction in itself? But then when the four of us, for example, are we mature enough to say, who cares what we all think of each other? Let's do this for the kids. Let's go off on Christmas Day and spend an hour or two together. And we see, as you said, so much of it on social media and particularly celebrity culture. There are so many of them who seem to be doing it so well. And I use them a lot in my examples. I know they've broken up now, but you had, what is it? Dakota Johnson, Gwyneth, they're all best friends. They were all going out together for the sake of their children. And I'd sit back and say, wow, that's cool. I'd love to do that. That my son would be so happy. And there have been occasions at his school, for example, we had his Christmas play, and I went with his dad and partners, and he ran up to a teacher, he's only five, and he said, look, my mom and my dad are here together today. And it melted my heart because I thought, God, this is so special to him. And I don't think I realized that. And so maybe it is. You know, I call them gotcha moments like that. Whereas a parent, you say, wow, for me, this was the worst day ever because we had to all sit together. But, gosh, that was special to him. So maybe I'll keep doing it.
- [35:04]
A
Well, I, for one, am so grateful that you're doing this work and that you put out this book. When I saw the title alone, I was like, yes, we've got to talk about this. So the book again, is called the Collaborative Co Parent. You can get it on Amazon or wherever it is you buy books. Let's keep our local bookstores in business. And you can also find Gabriella on Instagram at Gabriella Primere. And we will put all of the links, all the ways to find and follow Gabriela in show notes. And, Gabriela, thank you for being our guest and for doing this very important work.
- [35:39]
B
Thank you for having me. Honestly, it's been a great conversation.
- [35:42]
A
Absolutely. My pleasure. So, friend, let me be clear on where I stand. Am I pro divorce? Yes. If you're in a miserable marriage is wildly unhealthy or does more harm than good to anyone in everyone involved, including your kids. Yes. Then I'm pro divorce, and I'm also pro commitment. It's one of my core values. I'm not suggesting you walk away from a marriage just because you hit a tough season or because you're temporarily annoyed, because that's not commitment, that's convenience. And commitment still can look different than till death do us part. It can also look like prioritizing your kids well, being over your own pride. Commitment can look like choosing collaboration over petting A and it can look like holding boundaries that protect rather than winning, proving a point, or getting even. We're talking next level maturity here. We're talking holding the line when crossing it would feel so much more satisfying. We're talking about honoring families that work in whatever form they come. Commitment, collaboration, rewriting the rules that work for your family with integrity and intention. That is woman's work.