Thought Load: Overthinking, Overfunctioning & Exhaustion with Liane Davey | 413

Summary

Podcast Summary: This Is Woman’s Work with Nicole Kalil

Episode: Thought Load: Overthinking, Overfunctioning & Exhaustion with Liane Davey | Ep. 413
Date: May 20, 2026
Guest: Liane Davey, “The Teamwork Doctor,” Leadership Advisor, Author of Manage the Madness

Overview: Defining “Thought Load” and Its Impact

In this episode, Nicole Kalil sits down with Liane Davey to tackle the phenomenon of “thought load” – the invisible mental, emotional, and cognitive burdens women (especially high-achievers) carry both at work and home. They explore why this overload happens, the impact it has on performance and wellbeing, and practical strategies for regaining balance, setting boundaries, and quieting the inner “head trash.” The core message: managing thought load is about more than time management; it requires redefining value, focus, and what it means to do “woman’s work” authentically.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Is “Thought Load”?

[05:17–06:14] Liane Davey:

• Thought load is “the invisible tax on both our performance and our presence” resulting from:
  • Rising cognitive demands (juggling home/work at once)
  • Increasing emotional burdens (own anxieties & those of others)
  • Declining energy reserves
• These challenges amplify each other, making high-functioning women more prone to burnout.

“Thought load is the invisible tax on both our performance and our presence...cognitive demands and the emotional burdens all carried with declining energy reserves.” – Liane Davey [05:17]

2. Why High-Achieving Women Get Stuck with Invisible Labor

[06:35-07:52]

• Women, often since childhood, are socially rewarded for taking on responsibility.
• High capacity and empathy make them the “human junk drawer” at home and work.
• Over-functioning becomes normalized and rewarded, even as it exhausts us.

“High-achieving women have this phenomenal capacity…they’re more empathetic…rewarded for caring for the whole pack.” – Liane Davey [07:20]

3. Turning Strengths into Weaknesses: Finding the Line

[07:52–12:07]

• Our greatest strengths (e.g., competence, empathy) can backfire when overused.
• Nicole asks: How can we use our strengths without crossing into exhaustion?

Strategies for Monitoring the Line:

• Don’t ask, “Could I add value?” but “Can I add unique value?”
• Focus on important outcomes over activities to escape busyness/productivity traps.
• Distinguish between your core responsibilities (“quests”) and side quests.

“When you focus on activities, all you become is busy. When you shift…to being productive…it’s a trap…ask: did any of that work move the needle?” – Liane Davey [10:35]

4. Avoiding the Busyness/“Productivity” Trap

[12:07–15:11]

• Productivity is not always progress; sometimes it’s just spinning wheels.
• Make separate to-do lists: your quest, important quests for others, and required side quests.

“If you have one to-do list and high thought load, you pick...based on who's the scariest person attached to one of those things. That’s not a good reason to choose.” – Liane Davey [11:54]

5. Decision Filters: Sorting What Matters

[13:07–15:11]

• Liane introduces a triage system for requests/tasks:
  1. Is it important? (Does it move the needle?)
  2. Is it urgent? (Does delay have a cost?)
  3. Is it unique to me? (Only I can do it?)
  4. Is it essential? (Can I do less and still get value?)
• Nicole endorses “strategically half-assing” as a sanity-saver.

“I call that strategically half-assing things. Is it good enough?” – Nicole Kalil [15:46]

6. Getting Real About What Actually Matters

[15:47–18:02]

• We tend to inflate the number of things that matter.
• Liane suggests focusing on no more than three top outcomes per quarter.
• Distill goals to their leading indicators.

7. Translating Plans into Action (and Tackling “Head Trash”)

[20:21–22:56]

• Accountability: Share key outcomes with your manager/partner.
• Embed top priorities into your schedule – make calendar match values.
• Tackle emotional self-sabotage (“head trash”) – mental clutter is a major source of thought load.
  • Differentiate between load and head trash, and address each separately.

“Head trash is a key component of thought load.” – Liane Davey [22:54]

8. Quieting the Unknown Through Conversation

[22:57–24:43]

• Reducing “thought load” often means talking openly with key stakeholders.
• Don’t guess what others think – have explicit conversations to align on priorities and metrics.

9. Managing Attention vs. Time

[24:43–27:15]

• Time is fixed; attention is the real commodity.
• Don’t just “find more time”—focus your attention, avoid fragmenting it across distractions.

“Nobody has more time than you do...But what's interesting is...what we get out of that hour depends on whether your attention is locked in…or diluted.” – Liane Davey [25:02]

10. Setting Boundaries & Breaking the “Den Mother” Trap

[27:15–32:18]

• Women frequently become the office/family “solution” point; this reinforces overload and reduces leadership perception.
• Tools for change:
  • Explicit boundaries (signaling “do not disturb,” office hours)
  • Delaying help unless urgent (“Is it urgent? Can we talk in 45 minutes?”)
  • Helping others learn self-sufficiency—don’t solve every problem for them.

“You're the den mother, you're the safe person, which means there is very little accountability associated with you.” – Liane Davey [30:50]

11. Overcoming Fear of Perception Shift

[32:18–34:33]

• Setting boundaries may feel “unapproachable,” but is necessary for leadership visibility and protecting value-driven focus.
• Be intentional: Plan social connections (e.g., team lunches), but don’t default to always being the go-to fixer.

“You can't get the perception shift to the positive thing you want unless you're willing to let go of something.” – Liane Davey [32:57]

12. Emergency Remedies: When Thought Load Feels Overwhelming

[35:11–37:18]

• Liane shares her “Do More Nothing” rule:
  • Build in no-input time (walking, quiet, bath, gardening) to let thoughts settle and recharge.
  • Purposefully step away to gain clarity and decrease overwhelm.

“Do more nothing…find chunks of 45 minutes with zero input…Let things process…The most important thing you can do to restore yourself in high thought load: do more nothing.” – Liane Davey [36:09]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On women's invisible workload:
  “Capable women have become the human junk drawer for far too many organizations…expected to keep everyone else’s spinning, too.” – Nicole Kalil [03:17]

• On strengths becoming weaknesses:
  “Whatever our greatest strength is often becomes our biggest weakness because we over rotate so hard on that strength…” – Nicole Kalil [07:52]

• On productivity traps:
  “Being productive is a trap, and it means we’re pumping out a ton of stuff without asking, did any of that work move the needle?” – Liane Davey [10:35]

• On setting boundaries:
  “If you want to get involved with something, ask yourself…How could I deal with this this time to make it less likely there’ll be another time?” – Liane Davey [31:29]

• On nourishing your mind:
  “I am starving. I’m drinking water from a fire hose…there is no air. So I created a discipline for myself called do more nothing.” – Liane Davey [35:11]

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Important Timestamps

• [03:17] – Nicole sets stage for “thought load” concept
• [05:17] – Liane defines thought load
• [07:20] – Invisible labor and gold-star syndrome for women
• [10:35] – Activity vs. productivity vs. real outcomes
• [13:07] – Task triage questions
• [15:46] – “Strategically half-assing” & permission for “good enough”
• [22:54] – “Head trash is a key component of thought load”
• [25:02] – Why attention, not time, is what really matters
• [27:45-32:18] – Boundary setting, overcoming “den mother” role
• [35:11] – “Do More Nothing” – Liane’s go-to remedy for overwhelm

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Conclusion

Nicole and Liane urge listeners to question the systems and inner narratives that glorify overfunctioning. By shifting from busyness to intentional impact, triaging requests, setting clear boundaries, managing attention, and making space to “do more nothing,” women can break the cycle of exhaustion and reclaim “woman’s work” on their own terms.
“Just because we can carry it doesn’t mean we should.” – Nicole Kalil [Closing]

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Resources:

• Manage the Madness by Liane Davey
• thoughtload.com
• nicolekalil.com

[End of Summary]

Transcript

[A]

If you've ever gone down a hiring rabbit hole, scrolling profiles, second guessing everything, wasting hours, you know exactly how this goes. It's not just about finding someone, it's about finding the right someone. Which is especially hard when you don't actually know a lot about what you're hiring for. Like web design and software development, data and analytics, marketing, business operations. You know all the things that go into building a business. Which is why I love upwork. It's it's a one stop platform for hiring flexible, high quality freelance talent for everything from one off projects to ongoing support. And Upwork also cuts down the operational hassle by handling things like contracts and payments in one place so you can spend more time running your business. So visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's upwork.com upwork.com Expedia and Visit Scotland Invite you to come step into centuries of history that await in Scotland. Castles steeped in legend walk along cobblestone streets. Come share the warmth of stories passed down through generations. This is a place with a past that is fully present today and all yours to explore. Blower Plan your Scottish escape [e-mail] VisitScotland. I am Nicole Kahlil and you're listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast, where together we're redefining what it means, what it looks and what it feels like to be doing woman's work. And today we're going to talk about a byproduct and unfortunately a very common experience that we need to get a handle on as we're out there doing woman's work. And it's not just our workload, it's our thought load. The invisible tabs open in our brains at all times. The mental gymnastics, the contingency planning, the remembering, anticipating, smoothing over, managing reactions, preparing for worst case scenarios, replaying conversations we haven't even had yet. It's the running list of groceries and deadlines and team dynamics and whether that quick slack message sounded too direct. It's the emotional labor, mental load, worry work we do at home and its corporate cousin. The same chaos with a different dress code. We've talked a lot culturally about the mental load women carry, but often reserve it for the work we do inside the home. The second shift, the invisible labor, the if we don't think about it, no one else will phenomenon. But we don't talk nearly enough about how that exact same background Processing follows us into work because unfortunately, our overactive brains do not care which room we're standing in. And here's the really infuriating part. The more competent you are, the more thought load you're probably dealing with. Because capable women have become the human junk drawer for far too many organizations. Need someone to catch the thing everyone else missed. Ask her. Manage the tension on the team. She's got it. Remember the birthday, the deadline, the client preference, the emotional tone of the meeting, and whether Bob from finance seemed off today. Perfect. Give it to the competent woman who not only already has her own full plate, but is somehow expected to keep everyone else's spinning too. And we wonder why women are burned out, why productivity feels just out of reach, why we're exhausted despite our color coded calendars, efficiency hacks, and enough water bottles to hydrate a small village, but no actual time to pee. Maybe the problem has nothing to do with time management. Maybe the problem is we're managing too much mentally, emotionally, and cognitively all at once inside of systems that reward over functioning and call it being a team player. So today we are talking all about that thought load. Joining us is Leanne Davey, known as the teamwork doctor, who has spent more than 25 years helping teams and leaders work more effectively together. She's a New York Times bestselling author, Leadership advisor to 26 Fortune 500 companies and counting, and the author of the new book manage the madness and free your team to do great work. Her work has helped many organizations tackle burnout, dysfunction, and the hidden dynamics that are keeping teams stuck. So, Leanne, I imagine that every woman listening in knows all about this thought load. But before we talk about how to manage it, can you define what it actually is and why it's become such a massive issue in the way that we both work and live?

[B]

Absolutely. Before I do that, can I just say that is the best description I have ever heard and I want to just take your intro and make it the forward to the second edition. So I'm coming back to you when. The second edition.

[A]

I will gladly send it to you right after.

[B]

I love replaying conversations we haven't had yet. Y. Yes.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. What. What is thought load? Thought load is the invisible tax on both our performance and our presence that comes from this treacherous triad of rising cognitive demands. How much we're expected to pay attention to both home and work things all at once. Secondly, the increasing emotional burdens. You know, our own anxiety, our own emotional inner life, plus what we're trying to carry for our Family for our co workers, for our girlfriends, for our parents, and then that's the load. So the cognitive demands and the emotional burdens all carried with declining energy reserves. So that's how those three things and, and the problem is the neuroscience of those three things are that each one of those problems amplifies and exacerbates, baits the others. And every person who's listening knows exactly what I mean.

[A]

Yeah, you just put words on our everyday existence. Right. Which is a little scary. You say in the book that more often than not it's the high achieving women who carry a lot of these invisible responsibilities. Why is that and why are we taking it on?

[B]

Yeah, I think because we've, we've been rewarded for that. We've gotten the gold star for that since we were little. So anybody who's an older sister knows they got the gold star for making sure their siblings were all happy or fed or whatever else. Remember coming home one day, my elder daughter was four and her baby sister was not one yet. And she, my husband was ill and there she was on the stoop feeding her sister a bottle. And she just looks at me and says, is this right, mommy? And of course I lavished huge praise on her because her dad was sick and so she's taking care of her little sister. But at 4 she was getting gold stars for worrying about everybody else. A four year old's not supposed to have to worry about that. So all the way through. And then I think, you know, high achieving women have this phenomenal capacity. It's, it is truly remarkable the capacity that they have. And so they're first of all more attuned to all the things that could benefit from them, adding value. They're more empathetic and care more about doing that. You know, all of those things we've been both genetically, but also in what we've been socialized to do, rewarded for caring for the whole pack.

[A]

It reminds me of a belief that I've long had that is whatever our greatest strength is often becomes our biggest weakness because we over rotate so hard on that strength or we rely on it so heavily that we don't have any barometer or any measurement for when we've over rotated or gone too far. So that leads to my next question, which is how do we for ourselves with ourselves, find that line? Obviously we want to leverage our strengths. Obviously it makes us good at what we do when we take our experiences, our talents, our unique abilities and apply them to whatever it is that we're doing. But then how do we not tip over into the place where it becomes a weakness?

[B]

Yeah. So I would say the place to start is by focusing your distracted attention. So here's a way I ask the question, so many people I see jump in to start helping on something, and the question that they're asking themselves is, could I add value here? And the answer for most of us is, yeah, I could add value here. And so that question is useless. Like everything you sort using that question or 99% of what you sort using that question ends up in the pile. Yes. So that's not a helpful sorting question. The better question is, can I add unique value here? Is this value that only I can add? Right. Is this something that needs me? And that pile split is going to be much, much more balanced. Right. So think about that. So focusing on what is the most important outcome that I am trying to create in my work, with my role, what's my organization? What are my customers or stakeholders counting on me to do? What's the most important way that I need the world to be different? If I'm doing things well, start there and then say, all right, then what are the most important things I need to produce to move the needle in that direction? And then what are the most important things I need to do? And the problem is, as women, and not just as women, all of us are too focused on activities. Just what was the next email that came in? Can I get this thing off my to do list? When you focus on activities, all you become is busy. When you shift to focusing on outputs, which most people think is an improvement, it is a bit of an improvement. Did I shift the code? Did I, did I send the report? You shift from being busy to being productive. But unfortunately, being productive is a trap, and it means we're pumping out a ton of stuff without asking, did any of that work move the needle on this outcome? So the first thing that we need to do for sure is to start with what's the most important outcome that my organization is counting on me to accomplish and how do I work with backwards from there instead of hoping that if I do enough activities, the world will change the way I hope it would. So that's one. The second is to say, also be much more fussy about which outcomes for other people you agree to help with. And yes, you should be helping with some people's important quests. Absolutely. But not all of them, not all of them can you add unique value on. Not all of them is the best use of your time. And. And then what side quests do I have to do as, as a good organizational citizen? So that's another big tip. Big, big tip is don't have one to do list. If you have one to do list and high thought load, you pick what to do on that list based on who's the scariest person attached to one of those things? Oh, I'm gonna do that. Cause you know he's gonna yell at me if I don't do that. That's not a good reason to choose. Or you choose based on. Okay, what email came in most recently? So if we can get to understanding what's my quest, what's one or two really important quests for other people that I need to contribute on and what are the side quests I absolutely have to do? And then how do we have three separate priority lists so we don't give up our list in service of helping everyone else be successful? So we need, we need to change our framing now.

[A]

Okay. There is a lot of really good things in there and I think things that sort of fly in the face of what we hear out there a lot like busyness, productivity. Again, as you said earlier, it gets rewarded a ton. And so it's really hard to untangle ourselves from that. I do love the shift of the question, can I add unique value here? But I'm going to be fully transparent as a high achieving person that I think sometimes our egos get in the way of that question.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I think we think often we're the only or the best. If I want it done right, I gotta do it myself. And so I worry. And I liked that you added to this, but is there a secondary question that triggers what you were talking about, which is, does this actually matter? Right. So can I add unique value here? And is this aligned with what matters most? Some version like that?

[B]

Yeah, I put the matters most first. Yeah, yeah. So put the matters most. So, so I have a, a way to triage any kind of request. So first, is it important? So will this activity move the needle on something that matters? That's the first question. Because if the answer is no to that, doesn't matter if it's you or anybody else, it just shouldn't be done if the answer is no. Right. Second, is it urgent? Would waiting either reduce the opportunity or increase the threat? If not, why am I doing this now? Right. Third, is it unique to me? Right, that's the unique value question. Because, you know, if it doesn't need to be done or it doesn't need to be done now, it doesn't need to be me. And then the fourth question, is it essential? Which is work tends to bloat reports is a great way to think about this. You know, the report used to have, you know, five data points used to go out like once a quarter and you know, people, somebody's boss asked for some other number two years ago, and so now that's always in there. And then this other thing from another day, work bloats and just gets bigger. Now that reports monthly and it's taking you six hours a month. So the last question is if could I do 50% of that and get all of the value doing 100%? So, yeah, that triage, is it important? Is it urgent? Is it unique to me? And is it essential we can use that to hopefully get our ego out of the way? The, the other thing that helped me, this is not my line, but that really helped me with the ego thing and, and, and not investing my time and energy in things that were not unique to me was just this image. You can't climb a ladder unless you're willing to let go of something. And I often picture that of like, am I trying to get higher on the ladder but refusing to let go of doing this, chairing this meeting that used to be great in my career but now is leaving me kind of stuck down there. So, you know, that image of all the silly metaphors and motivational things, that image for me has been really helpful. I have to let go of that ring if I'm going to reach that hand higher.

[A]

I absolutely love that image. And it's so, it's so good because I believe that our focus needs to be less, even though everything around us tells us more. And so in order to do less, we have to let go of more. And that visual is just really helpful. So my next question, and I, I also wanted to throw out when you were talking about can I do this at 50%? I call that strategically half assing things. Yes. Like, are there certain things that, like, if I just half ass it, it's good enough. Is it good enough? Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So my question I'm trying to get to is how many things actually matter? Because I think we're lying to ourselves. We think 100 things matter when the reality is, at the end of the day, probably only three things. Or, you know, like I've been trying to narrow my focus and put things under specific containers so that I can ask myself, is this going to directly impact these three things that actually matter? And if the answer is no, then the answer Is no. Or at least not now or not yet. Right. So how do we narrow our definition of what actually matters?

[B]

Yeah. So it's really about. And you know, sometimes it's playing the game of. Of the different layers. Right. So, you know, it's really easy to say revenue. Right. Like, we could always put revenue as an outcome that might, depending on your role, really work for you. It might be way too far out there, and that might not be your job. You might be in marketing, and your job might be to increase foot traffic or something like that. So what is the most important thing? But if we're thinking about revenue, you could probably think of a hundred things that are going to increase your company's revenue. But back to your question. Which ones really matter? Which is the leading indicator? What's the first outcome I need to get? Because that's going to set us on the right path. So using a variety of different questions to help you distill to. And I would say probably for the quarter, is about the right spot to be focused. This quarter, the most important thing we can be focused on is this. And. And it is by going all the way out to those ultimate business performance things, maybe your company is just about new users. We're getting started. We just need new users. Okay, so we need signups. There's no money attached to it. We just want user count.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

What. What are the three outcomes this quarter that are going to be associated with that? Right. You know, whatever an influencer talks about us, we get X number of interactions on our Instagram post, whatever. But figuring out for what is it? What are the key things this quarter? The outcomes? I can't control outcomes, but these are the things I'm watching to see if my work is having impact.

[A]

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[A]

Okay, great advice. And how do we take that from our activities into our brains? I can say that I am focused on these three things this quarter because they directly correlate in our lead indicators for what matters most. And sometimes my brain doesn't agree and it starts going off into what if and I should do this and this person's doing that and what? Like, why am I behind? Like my brain? Yeah, did not get the memo of doing less and simplifying. So how do we translate that?

[B]

So there's probably two pieces of that. So there's all of the time management that says these are my outcomes. I would say the first thing to increase accountability on that is have that conversation with your manager. You know, I, I'm really trying to make sure my energy is going to the most important things. This is what I've come up with as the most important things. What are your thoughts? Would you have any suggestions, tweaks, whatever? So that's one good mechanism for if. Now if your manager is going to be paying attention to the same scorecard that's going to be really helpful. Then getting that into, you know, your priorities in order. 1, 2, 3. You know, this is the first output I need to create, this is the second. And share that with somebody. Right. How do you, again, foster accountability for yourself that. That you've shared that, then how are you going to put that into your calendar? So if you've said this is the number one output and you open your calendar, and the only places in your calendar where you're going to make any progress on that are after the kids go to bed. And I think Saturday morning I have some time while the kids are at soccer. Like, if that's where your most important output is, your calendar is not doing you any favors. So lock it into your calendar. So there's a lot of time management pieces to it, but it sounds like the other piece that's coming up for you in your example is a more emotional piece. Am I doing enough? Do I have imposter syndrome? And am I right? All of those things. So I would say in that case, you have to switch to the second part of the book, which is, how do I process some of these triggered emotions? Because as much as you've got a beautiful plan, if that nasty narrator in your head is telling you it's not enough, it's not like it won't get you there, then all the time management in the world's not going to help you. So I'd say, okay, we got to go and work on processing that emotion. So two pieces of the solve.

[A]

I call the. The voice in my head that does that stuff, head trash. Because I want it to sound as dirty and disgusting as it actually is, but they go hand in hand. The load and the head trash.

[B]

Yeah, head trash is a key component of thought load.

[A]

Yeah. And I'm glad you separated them because totally different things that are happening and probably need different focuses or solutions. And I want to circle back on where you started with the. You know, having the conversation with your manager was the example.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But what it brought to my mind is often where I think we spend a lot of our energy in head trash is in the unknown and worrying about what other people are thinking or other people's perspectives or perceptions or whatever. Like, did I do this or am I that enough? Like, and if we can have these conversations with the people who matter and we can get on the same page, I think that gives us the opportunity to quiet the noise and limit the unknown. Like, we're not sitting there wondering, in this case, does our manager notice or care that I'm doing this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We know because we had the conversation.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's just a whole bunch of head trash that. That goes out in the disposal or gets compacted. Then, you know, oh, my boss really loved that. First of all, my boss loved that I took accountability and initiative to map out the outcomes that, you know, when I came in with that, it was the old don't come with a problem, come with a solution. So I got a gold star for that. There were some tweaks. So my boss loved the chance to put their fingerprints on it a little bit and make sure it was like all of that. And now I feel like we're both measuring with the same yardstick. Right. That just reduces so much because you know what? Your teammates probably haven't done that. So they're toiling away, doing a bunch of activity. Not. Not likely to get the same kind of reward and recognition you are, because they're just, maybe if I do enough stuff, the boss will think I'm great. Yeah.

[A]

We hear a lot about time management. I talk about choice management because I think time is fixed and neutral. And so what we're really managing are the choices we make with the time that we have. In your book, you talk about manag attention. Talk to us about that.

[B]

So.

[A]

And what does it look like in real life?

[B]

So the problem is, I agree with you. We all talk about, well, if only I had more time. I'm like, who ha. Who has that? Short of Hermione Granger with her time turner? But other than that, you know, nobody has more time than you do. But what's interesting is so many people I see who have. They've carved out 90 minutes to make progress on something important. And then I watch what they do with that 90 minutes and they fritter it away. The most positive case example is, okay, I need to get this report done. So I sit down to work on it, and I go, oh, I needed that thing Marcia sent me. So I'm going to open my email to get the thing from Marcia. Oh, another email from. So let me respond to that. And. And then 10 minutes later, you come back to the task. Oh, let me keep going again. Oh, right. I needed to look that thing up on chat GPT and I ask it a question, and it gives me five options. Would you like me to do this or this or this or this? And all of a sudden. So that one hour of time, which, as you say, is the fixed resource, leads to something very differently, depending on whether your attention is locked in on accomplishing what you need to accomplish or whether it is just diluted across so many different things. So yeah, we want to manage our attention and our energy because what we get out of that hour, and that's why the problem is when your thought load is very heavy, you will have a real hard time getting through your workload. Because that one, that same hour that somebody else had, you get almost nothing done in that hour because stuff is weighing on you.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, so as you were sharing that example, another one popped into my head that I think is pretty common because as we have this thought load, one of the things we often do is think about other people, how they're doing, they're feeling what they need, you know, those types of things. And the way that that ends up playing out very often in real life is we become the go to for everybody's problems, everybody's questions. The do you have a minute right. When you're 90 minute and you're supposed to be focused on this thing and somebody pops their head in and you have a minute and then they ask you a question they could have very easily found with a quick search. And what am I?

[B]

Google?

[A]

Like, yeah, totally. But I think we also need to be responsible for how often we create that situation, how often we enable it.

[B]

Sure. It's nice to be needed. Yes.

[A]

It makes us feel good when we're the ones with the answers and everybody comes to us and then we don't get anything done because everybody needs us and we have all the answers. So I guess my question is how do we break that pattern?

[B]

Yeah. So you can do it in the simplest way by creating some better boundaries. Right. So I'm not a fan of the open door policy because what it says is that my attention doesn't matter. Right. You can distract my attention anytime. And that just, you know, doesn't show boundaries for us, doesn't show that we respect our own, you know, outcomes we're trying to create and that just models out for everybody else. So close the door, have time. Or you know, if you're in an open space. I used to work in a big open space. So you had noise canceling headphones that are like, if the headphones are on, that means do not disturb. Right. You know, someone comes and you can use the triage. Like is it urgent? Just say, is it urgent? Because I would love to sit and have lunch with you and hear this story. Or I'm going to take a break in about 45 minutes. Want to, want to take a quick walk and Grab a cup of coffee. So it doesn't mean that we can't be helpful. Good team players needed any of those things. It just says that we are managing our attention. The other thing is if you try and help that person while your brain is still processing that important piece of work you're trying to do, you're not going to be as valuable to them either. So making sure that you've actually set the boundary and, and said, you know, if we go for a walk in 45 minutes, I'll be all yours. Right? That sort of thing. So that's one. I think a second one is really asking yourself the hard question about do these conversations, when somebody pokes their head in the door, that's one thing. It's when they perch their right butt cheek on your desk, you're like, oh, this like. And asking yourself, is that conversation actually creating emotional contagion for me, that makes me less effective for the whole rest of the day. And that's something you want to ask because when we think about our energy reserves, you know, we're constantly trying to renew our energy and there may be a relationship or a person, if they're coming in gossiping to you, if they're telling you about the same woe as me story that they've told you four times before and you've given them lots of ideas for how to do something constructive and they never have. At some point you also have to ask yourself, does the boundary need to be a bit more impermeable? Does the boundary need to be something like, you know what, we've had this conversation four times. I've given you all that I've got. I want to move on or I don't want to go there anymore, something like that. So it could be something as little as just where is the time, when is the time that I can give you my full attention, just sort of managing it? Or it might be, you know what, this is not working for me. This is making me feel crappy. This is, you know, depleting my energy. So sometimes our boundaries need to be a little bit firmer.

[A]

Yeah, it's interesting. All of that is great advice. And I'll also add, if everybody's coming to you with their complaints, with their drama, with their gossip, I would argue that that is a really good sign that people don't see you as a leader.

[B]

That's a great point. Right? You're the den mother, you're the safe person, which probably means that there is very little accountability associated with you.

[A]

Right. Also, one of the things I tell myself, because we've been trained to be others focused. And so it helps me is it's. I'm not doing them a service if I fix and solve or what. I'm not teaching them how to do any of these skills. I'm not developing them in any way if I just do it for them. And so the way I kind of help myself feel better about boundaries is like, I'm doing them a service too, not just me.

[B]

Yeah. I always say, like, if you want to get involved with something, ask yourself. Especially something where you're just saying, well, just this time, just this time, I'll help. Like, this counts with your kids as well. Ask yourself, how could I deal with this this time to make it less likely there'll be another time. Right. So if the kid forgets their lunch and calls you at work to say, I need my lunch, how can I behave this time that will make it less likely they ever forget their lunch again. And I think a lot of us just go solve the problem in the moment, you know, rearrange our afternoon schedule, Go home, get the lunch, take the lunch. Which makes zero impact in how likely it is that they'll forget their lunch again. Right. And we do that with colleagues as well. So, sure, I can help you with this thing, but how am I going to help you this time? That makes it much less likely there'll be another time.

[A]

So what would you say to the person who's like, great, and I'm worried that if I set boundaries or communicate the importance of my attention, that people see me as unavailable or cold or disengaged. I got the feedback in my career early on that I was unapproachable. And there were lots of reasons for that, and there was some truth to it, but some of it was just I had too much to do and I wasn't available for everybody to come by and, you know, talk about their weekends or whatever. So what would you say to the person who's worried about a perception shift if they start to hold the boundaries?

[B]

You already talked about managing choices. Right. You're managing a choice there. So your. If your choice is, do I want to be the approachable one, the dead mother, the whatever. And I'm afraid of a perception shift there. Well, am I looking for the perception shift to, I'm more of a leader. I'm more strategic, I have greater executive presence. You can't get the perception shift to the positive thing you want unless you're willing to allow. You can't climb A ladder, unless you're willing to let go of something. So do you want to be the strategic person, the person who's really achieving and whatever else you have to be willing to let go of? This is the safe dumping ground for all of my emotional baggage. Right. So I would say don't be afraid of that choice, but then be strategic and make good choices about things like saying, you know what? Friday is my is my peers lunch. Right? Let I really work hard. I'm just as serious about boundaries to make sure I protect that lunch with my team every Friday. And that's a great place where we can catch up, hear about each other's kids or their weekends or whatever else. So be intentional about the perception shift you do want, particularly in focusing on what you want it to go toward. Be willing to process what it's going to shift away from and then be deliberate about the activities that you think are still really great for connection, for caring, for empathizing, all those things. So, yeah, we have to make hard choices, but I think those are choices that are worth making.

[A]

Like a light bulb went off for me, especially as it relates to thought load. How much energy we spend worrying about how we don't want to be perceived as opposed to how we do what's most important, what do I want to present? How do I want to impact? Focusing on what we want versus what we don't is a really great shift and will definitely help with our thought load. So my last question is when the thought load, when you feel buried, when it's heavy and hard and you know you're in it. Any thoughts? Tips? Go. Take 10 deep breaths. I don't know. What do we do when it's happening?

[B]

Okay. My favorite chapter in the book is called Do More Nothing. So it comes from many years ago. I was watching a Michael Pollan documentary on Netflix called Cooked. And he's talking about different ways that you can cook food. So he tells this story about. About bread. And he said you could eat all the flour and drink all of the water that you could get your hands on, and soon after you would starve to death. But if you mix the flour and the water and left them exposed to the air, you could bake that into bread that would sustain you indefinitely. And I had this epiphany while I was watching it. I'm like, that's me. I am starving. I'm drinking water from a fire hose. I'm absolutely choking on flour, all the input, but what's missing is any air. There is no air. So I created a discipline for myself called do more nothing. A two week cleanse. And the good thing about this cleanse is that you don't have to drink juice or anything like that, but you do this cleanse, which is to find chunks of 45 minutes to an hour with zero input. I did this just yesterday. I had a meeting and instead of driving, I walked to the meeting with no podcast, no music, no nothing. Just the chance to make sure that I was actually letting things process at the end of that 45 minute walk. So much more energy. It could be a bath, it could be gardening or baking. It doesn't driving in the car with no radio on. It doesn't matter what it is. What you'll find is that if you do more nothing, you get the thought load comes way down as you're able to turn that flour and water, everything in your brain pantry, that very full brain pantry, into nourishing things that will energize you. So that's my best tip. When you're really. When the thought load is really high and it's very counterintuitive because normally we want to do more. The most important thing you can do to restore yourself in high thought load, do more nothing.

[A]

Okay. Awesome. Leigh Ann, I know I'm not just speaking for myself. I'm sure we all could do a better job managing our thought load. So I'm going to remind you, the listener, to go get the book. It's called Thought Load and it's available wherever you buy books. But let's keep our local bookstores in business. And you can also find out more about Leanne and her book on thoughtload. Com. We'll put all the ways to find and follow Leanne, including social media, in show notes. Leigh Ann, thank you for an important topic and a great conversation.

[B]

Thanks so much, Nicole.

[A]

My pleasure. Okay, friend, here's the deal. Thought load thrives in silence, in the unspoken expectations, in the I'll just do it myself moments in systems that reward the people most willing to absorb the chaos with a smile and listen. Just because we can carry it doesn't mean we should. And maybe the strongest, most powerful thing any of us can do is stop glorifying over functioning and start questioning the systems and the people that depend on it. Because imagine for just a second what would happen if we quieted the noise, created space, refocused our energy. If we did more nothing, imagine what women would create, contribute and become. And I want that for you, I want that for us. Because that should be what it looks like. And what it feels like to be doing woman's work.