What a “Good Divorce” Can Look Like with Erin Levine | 426

Summary

Podcast Summary:

This Is Woman’s Work with Nicole Kalil

Episode 426: What a “Good Divorce” Can Look Like with Erin Levine

Date: August 5, 2026
Guest: Erin Levine, founder and CEO of Hello Divorce

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Overview

Nicole Kalil hosts a conversation with Erin Levine, a family law attorney and founder of Hello Divorce, to redefine what a “good divorce” can look like. The episode challenges the cultural script of divorce as adversarial and destructive, exploring how informed, empowered choices can make divorce a manageable life transition—rather than a devastating war. The discussion covers legal basics, emotional landmines, smart financial and custody decisions, and practical tips for anyone considering divorce, aiming to replace shame, fear, and chaos with clarity and agency.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Broader Context: Women, Empowerment, and Divorce (00:55–04:07)

• Changing Trends: More women are pursuing divorce later in life, often as a conscious, empowered choice rather than a failure.
• Confidence & Independence: Financial education, career success, and self-reliance are key drivers. Nicole points out that, “Women today are more financially informed and secure, more professionally accomplished, and frankly, less willing to spend the second half of their lives staying in relationships that feel lonelier than being alone.” (01:44, Nicole Kalil)
• Reframing Divorce: Nicole underlines that the episode is “not anti-marriage. It is anti staying miserable because you think that you have to. And there is a difference.” (01:08, Nicole Kalil)

2. Legal Realities: What’s Actually Required? (04:07–06:09)

Erin outlines the three necessary legal steps in a divorce, challenging the trope of inevitable courtroom warfare:

• Step 1: File a Petition/Complaint (“the system labels these documents [as] makes us think war… but [it] simply states we want a divorce and want to preserve all our rights.” (04:28, Erin Levine))
• Step 2: Financial Disclosures (transparency around assets/debts is key for fair negotiation; “you can’t negotiate… unless you have all the facts.” (05:04, Erin Levine))
• Step 3: Agreement/Judgment (“95% of divorces actually ultimately get to an agreement. Only 5% litigate in a trial.” (05:52, Erin Levine))
• Takeaway: Few divorces end up as court “wars”; most are resolved by agreement.

3. Redefining the Goal: What is a “Good Divorce”? (08:00–09:48)

• Empowerment and Self-Knowing: A “good divorce” isn’t easy, but it’s possible. Erin’s core advice: “Ask yourself through every decision… Am I making this decision from a place of fear, or from a place of self knowing?” (08:47, Erin Levine)
• Emotional Self-Care: The process is emotionally grueling—“if you can take insane amount of care of yourself, because this is going to be so hard… you are absolutely going to get through this and you are going to be stronger, more organized, more resilient, more empowered than you ever have been before.” (09:30, Erin Levine)

4. Pitfalls and Common Mistakes (11:21–14:24)

• Over-Reliance on Lawyers: One of the biggest mistakes Erin sees is “being so overwhelmed that you hand over your entire divorce to a lawyer and say go.” (11:36, Erin Levine) Legal advice should be balanced with financial expertise and personal input.
  • Example: A woman accepted a house instead of a 401(k) on her lawyer’s advice, only to later discover, with market fluctuation and after-tax calculations, she’d lost out financially.
• Financial Abdication: Nicole emphasizes, “We as women should never abdicate the money… releasing it and having somebody else be in control is never a good thing.” (13:34, Nicole Kalil)
• Costly Legal Pathways: Erin warns, “Throw on average $20,000 to $50,000 to a lawyer without understanding what their best or worst case scenario is in the divorce.” (14:24, Erin Levine)

5. Smart, Supportive Resources (15:03–17:07)

• Divorce Coaches: Erin recommends using a divorce coach—“life coaches that specialize in divorce and… can hold a lot of that emotion with you.” (15:51, Erin Levine)
• Collaborative Support: Hello Divorce provides affordable, holistic support with legal, financial, and other professionals, costing “on average $2,000 to $4,000 per couple versus $20,000 per person.” (16:48, Erin Levine)

6. Preparing for Divorce: Before Filing (19:09–22:05)

• Early Conversations: “How you start your divorce lays the foundation for how it will go… There’s definitely a wrong way, and that’s starting it from a place of, ‘I’m going to take everything, this is going to be the worst thing ever.’” (20:13, Erin Levine)
• Advance Preparation: Gather financial documentation and, if possible, set “ground rules”—for example, agree not to discuss divorce in front of the kids, use a mediator, and aim to stay out of court.
• Managing Spousal Reactions: Give your spouse “a little bit of time to be able to process it as well.” (20:49, Erin Levine)

7. Therapy, Mediation, and Ground Rules (22:05–23:58)

• Role of Therapists: Therapy can be helpful but varies—sometimes it creates space for initial conversations, other times one partner feels unheard. Erin recommends neutral mediators as an alternative for early planning.
• Setting Terms: Use therapy or mediation to establish temporary ground rules and agreements while exploring the decision.

8. Custody and Children: The Real Issues (23:23–25:53)

• Primary Harm to Children: “It’s not the divorce itself that ultimately harms kids… it’s conflict and tension in front of them.” (24:09, Erin Levine)
• Modern Custody Reality: Courts favor joint custody, but actual parenting schedules are flexible—frame the discussion around joint legal custody, then negotiate specifics more amicably.
• Strategic Advice: “If you start with ‘I want them 70% of the time,’ your spouse is going to push back… But if you start from a place, ‘Of course we’re both going to be in our kids’ lives…’ that tends to work a lot better.” (25:21, Erin Levine)

9. Beyond Money and Kids: Homes & Discovery (26:03–27:17)

• Real Estate: Know your mortgage and equity options; don’t navigate alone—consult a real estate expert.
• Discovery: Legal “discovery” can become a costly spiral of document requests: “I would push back and say, ‘What about this is really important, and what can we hold off on?’” (27:11, Erin Levine)

10. Family Modeling, Beliefs, & The True Cost of Staying (27:17–31:21)

• Negative Modeling: “Sometimes what actually does the most damage to our kids is staying in a relationship where there is conflict and tension and it’s obvious and it’s ever-present…” (28:31, Nicole Kalil)
• Empirical Perspective: “80% of adult children say they are very happy, if not content, with the fact that their parents got divorced… They don’t wish that they were still together.” (28:33, Erin Levine)
• Role Modeling for Children: “I want to model something that we would choose, actively choose, for our daughter…” (30:27, Nicole Kalil) Erin affirms the sentiment: “A hundred percent. Yeah. I like that framing.” (31:21, Erin Levine)

11. State Law Landmines (31:21–34:01)

• Waiting Periods: States differ—California has a 6-month waiting period after filing; some Southern states require separation periods before you can even file; some require proof via a third-party.
• Pregnancy Rule: In some states, “you can’t finalize your divorce if you’re pregnant”—even with abuse or years of separation. Erin calls this “completely unfair law… a good example of just how punitive the divorce system can be, especially for women.” (33:32, Erin Levine)

12. Message for the Undecided (34:01–36:47)

• Listen to Your Gut: “People know subconsciously, or in their gut, long before they’re willing to say it out loud… Sometimes relationships are just complete. They’re not bad, they’re not failed, they worked until they didn’t.” (34:30, Erin Levine)
• Reject the Shame: Divorce is not always a failure; “You did. You absolutely did. And this is where it’s at.” (34:56, Erin Levine)
• Nicole’s Addition: “A good divorce is an available option at a far greater rate than we might be thinking. What would be possible if we started with that as the goal or the baseline…?” (35:38, Nicole Kalil)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Divorce isn’t actually a legal problem as much as it is a life transition that happens to require some legal steps.”
  (03:20, Nicole Kalil)
• "Am I making this decision from a place of fear or from a place of self knowing? Because nothing good ever comes from making decisions from a place of fear or anger.”
  (08:47, Erin Levine)
• “You are absolutely going to get through this and you are going to be stronger, more organized, more resilient, more empowered than you ever have been before.”
  (09:36, Erin Levine)
• “Throw on average 20 to $50,000 to a lawyer without understanding what their best or worst case scenario is in the divorce.”
  (14:24, Erin Levine)
• “It’s not the divorce itself that ultimately harms kids, … it’s conflict and tension in front of them.”
  (24:08, Erin Levine)
• "A good divorce is better than a bad marriage.”
  (36:50, Nicole Kalil quoting Erin Levine)
• “Sometimes the bravest thing any of us can do is be honest about what's no longer working… This conversation is really about something bigger. Knowing your options, getting informed instead of staying afraid, and remembering that you are allowed, encouraged even, to have relationships that feel reciprocal and connected.”
  (37:25–37:41, Nicole Kalil)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:55] Nicole sets the episode’s tone and context
• [04:07] Erin Levine introduces the three required legal steps for divorce
• [06:17] The need for broader support—divorce as life transition
• [08:19] Defining a good divorce & emotional guidance
• [11:35] Common pitfalls and the danger of abdicating financial responsibility
• [15:03] Importance and resourcefulness of divorce coaching
• [19:09] Pre-filing tips: laying groundwork, ground rules
• [22:29] Therapy, mediation, and neutral third-party support
• [23:58] Custody myths and what really matters for kids
• [26:03] Real estate and discovery as hidden hurdles
• [27:17] Modeling relationships for children and the cost of staying
• [31:42] State-specific legal traps and timelines
• [34:01] Advice for those questioning divorce
• [36:47] Closing perspective: a good divorce as honest, brave, and possible

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Final Message

Nicole concludes by reframing divorce as a potentially courageous, positive reset rather than a personal failing:
“You only get this one life. So sometimes the most important relationship you save and the only person you should never ever leave is yourself. And this—this is Woman's Work.”
(37:52, Nicole Kalil)

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For more resources, visit Hello Divorce for checklists, calculators, professional referrals, and expert guidance, or connect on Instagram @hellodivorce.

Transcript

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[Nicole Khalil]

I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. And apparently for a growing number of women in their 40s, 50s, and 60s, that work includes getting divorced. Now before anyone sends me hate mail. This episode is not anti marriage. It is anti staying miserable because you think that you have to. And there is a difference, because something is happening. More women are leaving marriages later in life. And while there are a million reasons why, I don't think that it's a coincidence that women today are more financially informed and secure, more professionally accomplished, and frankly, less willing to spend the second half of their lives staying in relationships that feel lonelier than being alone. Women are asking harder questions now. Questions like is this actually a partnership or am I the only one carrying the emotional load here? And I think confidence also plays a role too. The kind of confidence that comes with age, experience, surviving hard things, building careers, raising kids, paying bills, rebuilding identity over and over again. Confidence changes your tolerance level. Things you once overlooked or justified or accommodated suddenly start sounding ridiculous. But here's the daunting part. We don't talk enough about the legal side, because for something that impacts your money, your home, your kids, your future and your sanity. Most people walk into divorce feeling wildly under informed or they avoid it altogether because somewhere along the way divorce became synonymous with war. Burn it down, lawyer up, fight for everything and the dog drain the bank account to prove a point. As if the only successful divorce is one where everyone leaves emotionally concussed and financially depleted. But what if that's bullshit? What if divorce isn't actually a legal problem as much as it is a life transition that happens to require some legal steps, what if a good divorce is a possibility? Today, we're talking about the legal side of divorce. The financial mistakes, the emotional landmines, the myths about lawyers and courtrooms, and the options more people have than they might even realize. Our guest is Erin Levine, founder and CEO of hello Divorce, a platform helping people navigate divorce with legal, financial, and emotional support. After spending nearly two decades as a family law attorney watching the traditional system create more conflict, cost, and chaos, Erin set out to build something different. She's a certified family law specialist, longtime super lawyer, and one of the leading voices rethinking what a good divorce can actually look like. So, Aaron, welcome to the show. And I think the best place for us to start is with one of the biggest misconceptions people have about divorce, because I think a lot of people do picture that long, ugly, financially devastating courtroom battle. So let's start here before we get into the weeds, what actually has to happen legally to get a divorce.

[Erin Levine]

Hey, Nicole. Great to be here. Yes, I think there is a huge misconception about what divorce is from a legal standard standpoint. And the thing to know is that divorce in every state and sometimes every county is a little bit different. But there's always three main steps that have to happen that are mandatory. The first step is somebody has to file what we often call a divorce petition. Sometimes it's called a divorce complaint. You see the language right from the start, the system, the way the system labels these documents makes us think war, makes us think lawsuit. But that initial document, the divorce petition, simply states that we want a divorce and we want to preserve all of our rights going into it. The second step is where a lot of people get hung up. This is the part that gives people the most amount of anxiety, and that's the financial disclosures. That's where you get everything on the table. Your assets, your debts, your cash, your intellectual property. It doesn't mean that you're dividing everything. It just means we have to get it all on the table so that we can negotiate from a place where we actually know what's happening. You can't negotiate your way out of a contract where.

[Starbucks Frappuccino Announcer]

Which.

[Erin Levine]

That's what marriage is, a marital contract, unless you have all the facts. And then the third piece is getting to an agreement, which, this will surprise you, but 95% of divorces actually ultimately get to an agreement. Only 5% litigate in a trial. So you get to an agreement. And you get that down on paper, it's signed, and it's often called a divorce judgment or decree, or sometimes also called a marital settlement agreement.

[Nicole Khalil]

Okay, thank you for walking us through that. Where do people have more options than they might realize?

[Erin Levine]

Well, I think the first thing to realize is that, and you mentioned this in your intro, is that divorce, it certainly is a legal event, but it's so much more than that. It is a massive life transition. We don't get divorced because we lose hope. We actually have more hope than we ever had before because we're making a really big decision after a really considered period of time. And now we want to set ourselves up for something really positive going forward. A good divorce is empowering a better life ahead. So we have to think of it as getting support beyond legal. Yes, legal is important, but everything is changing, from sometimes your health insurance plan to your retirement accounts, how much you have available for retirement, how and when you parent where you live. None of this is meant to scare you, because you don't need to know everything at once. You'll learn it along the way. Everybody does, because women like us are women who have done hard things and we can do hard things. So you don't need to know everything up front, but you do need to know that you're going to need more support than just the legal piece. And you also need to know that you will have time unless there is an emergency, like your spouse has taken your kids and you don't know where they are, which is very, very rare. Unless there's an emergency, you will have plenty of time to get the support you need and make decisions from a place of power and confidence, not fear, and set yourself up with a really solid agreement.

[Nicole Khalil]

So it kind of leads. And you might have already answered this into my next question, which was going to be, how do you define a good divorce? You'd said, empowering a good life ahead. Is there anything from your experience and observation, what makes up a good divorce and how do people do it?

[Erin Levine]

A good divorce is possible, and I know that because we've literally supported 24,000 people through it. Actually double that because we've done 24,000 divorces that have resulted in a good outcome. It doesn't mean divorce wasn't grueling or hard. It means that people felt good about their divorce and where they were headed in their next step. So a good divorce is possible. And what it means is you're setting yourself up to empower a better life ahead. And there's just one thing that you have to remember, and that is you have to ask yourself through every decision, because that's what divorce is, a series of decisions. Am I making this decision from a place of fear or from a place of self knowing? Because nothing good ever comes from making decisions from a place of fear or anger. And so much of divorce are those emotions and grief. So not that you won't have those, but if you can take insane amount of care of yourself because this is going to be so hard and you can really work on grounding and breathing and ask yourself those questions, questions, you are going to have a good divorce. You are absolutely going to get through this and you are going to be stronger, more organized, more resilient, more empowered than you ever have been before.

[Nicole Khalil]

So what I'm hearing is not that you won't experience fear, anger and grief, of course you will. But that those are not the best places to make a decision from. And that holds true not just in divorce, but in life in general, right?

[Erin Levine]

Absolutely.

[Nicole Khalil]

Not great places to be making decisions from.

[Erin Levine]

Agreed. But it is particularly challenging in divorce because the divorce system is a business model. And that business model is set up such that the longer and uglier and more inefficient your divorce is, the more the players get paid. So there will probably be a lot of other lawyers that don't love this about what I'm saying, but it's true. Lawyers have literally no incentive to help you get this done quickly and efficiently and in your best interests. Not only that, but lawyers themselves, even good intentioned lawyers are trained to win. So they want to see you win. But what they might think is a win, an extra $10 in child support or you paying $20 less a month in spousal support might not be the win that you need or want. You might in some shape or form want to preserve some goodwill between the two of you. You might want to put your kids first. You might not want to put things in front of a public court that your children could read in 5, 10, 20 years from now. So that's really important.

[Nicole Khalil]

What do you see as far as the not good divorces? What are the things that are ruining people's in relationships and that are some of the bigger mistakes that you see people making?

[Erin Levine]

I think one of the biggest mistakes is being so overwhelmed that you hand over your entire divorce to a lawyer and say go. You actually have to do a lot more management of this divorce. So let me give you an example. I had a woman, she's actually an investor in hello, divorce she is a C suite executive. She is very wealthy, she's very high powered, has a finance position. Yet in her marriage, when you look at how they divided labor, there wasn't an abuse situation, although I do see that a lot. Coercive control. It's just her husband handled the finances and she didn't. And so she wasn't very aware of how that all works. The lawyer came to her and said, look, your husband is offering you to have the house. Keep, keep the house. And the house has the same amount of equity as the 401k. So it's an equal trade. This is great. You take the house, he'll take the 401k. And because she handed it over to the lawyer and didn't think about it with a friend or with a divorce financial analyst or a real estate expert, these are all people that we support on our site. She ended up with the asset that quickly was in a market that was losing value. She couldn't afford to pay the mortgage, the maintenance, the taxes and insurance. She had to sell it at a loss while his 401k continued to grow. And it was after tax dollars, so it was actually worth far more than the equity in her home. So the very most important thing you can do is question when. If you are working with a lawyer and they say you need to do X, think about, okay, from a finance perspective, does that really make sense? Is that really doable for me?

[Nicole Khalil]

Great advice. I firmly believe we as women should never abdicate the money. That doesn't mean that you need to manage it or handle everything or know everything or be a financial planner or expert, but just sort of releasing it and having somebody else be in control is never a good thing.

[Erin Levine]

I agree. I think sometimes, naturally, your spouse might do more of it. And the important thing, and this is really important because finance is like one of the number one reasons why I see these marriages fall apart is when you don't have a partnership. So your spouse might do the actual work of doing the transfers of making the investment, but you need to know what those decisions are. You need to play a part of it and you need to consent to it. Absolutely.

[Nicole Khalil]

Agreed. What is the single biggest financial mistake you see people make?

[Erin Levine]

Throw on average 20 to $50,000 to a lawyer without understanding what their best or worst case scenario is in the divorce or, or understanding what path that lawyer might take.

[Nicole Khalil]

Okay, and then what do you all do and what do you recommend to help people make clear, headed, forward thinking, even neutral decisions when they're in the middle of the fear and the anger and the grief and all of the things that come along. How do you help people separate the experience of their emotions from their decisions?

[Erin Levine]

Yeah, absolutely. One thing is, is that on average 70% of divorces are filed by women. And when women are in a college educated relationship, on average they are the ones to file for divorce 90% of the time. So that means that for the most part women are filing and they're doing it after two to five years of trying to save their marriage. Struggle with it, Consider it. Am I making the right decision? That is a really long time to be indecision. So I think the best thing you can do is help yourself get to a decision one way or another. And also once you make that decision, if it is to file for divorce, think through the exit plan and if you're feeling especially overwhelmed, have support there. And for that, all of that, I generally recommend a divorce coach. These are life coaches that specialize in divorce and they can hold a lot of that emotion with you. They can tell you when you're making decisions from a place of anger or fear. They can help you understand what documents you should start pulling together, how you're going to make this decision and walk you through the process. You don't have to do that, but it is one option that a lot of people use. So our site is called hellodivorce.com and it's a platform that that helps you navigate all of the legal and financial logistics. Actually, it automates the legal and the financial logistics associated with divorce and allows you to bring in experts as needed, lawyers, mediators to help broker a deal. If you don't want to talk to your spouse or they're being completely unreasonable. Financial advisors, real estate experts, therapists, divorce coaches, they're all there to support you through this. It sounds a lot more expensive, but what it ends up looking like is on average two to $4,000 per couple versus $20,000 per person.

[Nicole Khalil]

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[Starbucks Frappuccino Announcer]

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[Olivia from Ollie]

Hey friends. Olivia from Ollie. Between new routines and the ultimate group project known as parenting, you need science backed solutions that work with your life. That's where Ollie comes in. Start your mornings off right with multis made to support nutrition and immune health. Choose from our lineup of gut supporting probiotics and we've got occasional sleep support to help the whole fam chase their big dreams. Head back to class with the number one Gummy supplement brand. Stock up on ollie.com today. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

[Nicole Khalil]

We actually had a guest on the show many years back who is a divorced coach and is amazing. We'll link that episode in notes if anybody's looking. Okay, so you mentioned the two to five years that people are making this decision and we talked about some of the legal steps and resources that are available. But I would imagine a good divorce happens in that two to five years as much as it happens in the actual divorce. Meaning the conversations that you're having, the respect and support of each other's most empowered life ahead, whatever it might look like. Any tips for the before you file parts of how to have these conversations and how to set yourself up well from the beginning for a good divorce, if that's the decision you've come to.

[Erin Levine]

That's such an amazing question. One thing that we talk a lot about is how you start your divorce lays the foundation for how it will go. There's not one right way to Divorce. But there's definitely a wrong way. And that's starting it from a place of, I'm going to take everything. This is going to be the worst thing ever. Your spouse might say that, but they don't always mean it. And it'll be your job to sort of take a deep breath and process it and move through it. So when you're actually ready to make that decision, understand that it shouldn't be a surprise to your spouse. They shouldn't feel like this is a surprise when you've been quietly pulling away or stopped fighting or all the other things that we do as walkaway spouses for the last couple years. But it will. It will come as a surprise. And so you need to give them a little bit of time to be able to process it as well. And during that time, you can be doing a couple things. Number one is you've got to gather as much of your financial life as you possibly can. So that is clear. The second thing to do is to try and set some ground rules. This works really well for a lot of couples, not all. If you can set them, great, we'll talk about it real quickly. If you can't, that also gives you information that also helps you realize my spouse is not going to participate or cooperate at all. Now, I need to ensure that I have some really strong legal support. But ground rules are things like, we agree that we are not going to talk about the divorce in front of the kids. We agree that to the extent possible, we'll use a mediator or a neutral third party to help us get to an agreement. We agree that if at all possible, we'll stay out of court. If you can get those, or at least a couple of those initial brown roles, you're going to feel, both of you will feel so, so much better. Walking into this process.

[Nicole Khalil]

I'm curious, and I don't know that you would have any data or stats on this, but how helpful is going to a therapist or seeing a marriage counselor during this phase whether or not you end up getting divorced? Does it help you come to some of these agreements or ground rules and facilitate that decision? I don't know if it's easy is not the right word, but, like, having it be more obvious.

[Erin Levine]

Yeah, I think it depends on the therapist. I mean, sometimes at this. First of all, one thing I do know is a lot of people use the meeting with the therapist to tell their spouse they want a divorce. And that's totally reasonable, and I get it. But if both spouses, like, trust this therapist and like working with this therapist, that could be a really great opportunity to start setting some of these ground rules. But sometimes you get to a point in the relationship with the therapist where one feels like they're being bullied or not heard. And in that scenario, probably the best thing to do is set an hour or two with a local mediator or one of our mediators to say, look it, we don't know anything about this divorce. We haven't even started it. But we're trying to at least plan temporarily what life will look like over the next couple months while we figure

[Nicole Khalil]

this out on the legal side or the decision side maybe is a better way to frame it. I would imagine the things that get most challenging or most contentious are, of course, the finances. We've talked quite a bit, but kids and custody and agreements about the who and the when and the where and all that stuff. My first question is, any tips as it relates to figuring out how to do best with your children? And then, is there any other aspect besides finances and kids that we should be thinking about?

[Erin Levine]

I have a ton of legal tips on custody and support, but let me just back up. 90% of the women that come to me are worried about what impact this will have on the children. So I think it's important to bring up some research and a couple things we know. Number one is it's not the divorce itself that ultimately harms kids, Although in the moment it's not easy. It's conflict and tension in front of them. So I really want people to understand that. In fact, the vast majority of the kids I've seen over the last 20 years have ended up more resilient and organized and empathetic and all sorts of stuff. It's not to say it's not hard early on, but if you want to screw up your kids, you put them in the middle of the conflict and tension. So just remember that. I think what's most important is that the courts favor joint custody these days, and that scares a lot of people, especially when there's been one parent that's been more absent. But just because you agree to joint custody, and in most scenarios, that's probably how it will be, it doesn't mean that the actual parenting schedule has to be 50, 50. Right? So you can say to your spouse, absolutely, I agree to 50, 50, or I agree to joint custody. But when you get down to the nitty gritty details about the parenting schedule, that is where there's a lot more room and flexibility. And I want people to be aware of that, if you start with I want them 70% of the time, your spouse is going to push back 90% of the time. Hard, hard, hard. But if you start from the place, of course we're both going to be in our kids lives. Of course we will share joint legal custody and then work on the schedule and the kids end up being with you a lot more. Like that tends to work a lot better.

[Nicole Khalil]

Okay, besides the kids and the finances, what other things have the potential to become contentious that we should keep an eye out for?

[Erin Levine]

Okay, so two things. Real estate and discovery. And I know real estate touches on finances, but when it comes to your home, for the most part it's usually marital and it usually, you usually need to do two things. One is if you're both on the mortgage and you want to keep the home, you have to get your spouse's name off of it. And the other is you have to figure out a way to pay your spouse their share. Don't do that without a real estate expert. Our calls are no pressure and free with real estate experts. Understand your options. Sometimes you can even assume the loan. You can sometimes keep that low interest rate if you have it. So that's number one. Number two is discovery. Every lawyer in the world does discovery. That's where we send hundreds of questions and requests to the other side asking for data and finances. Understand that that is very expensive and whatever you request, they will likely request back. And it's a lot of busy work and it doesn't always give you the information that you need. So if you are working with a lawyer and they suggest discovery or just automatically do it, I would push back and say, what about this is really important and what can we hold off on?

[Nicole Khalil]

Okay, great tips. You mentioned earlier with the kids, the tension and the conflict is what really messes them up, not the actual divorce. And I am a grown adult woman, so this might, you know, not be the best example, but my parents recently got divorced after 50 years of marriage. My mom was one of the people I talked about at the beginning, women in their 40s, 50s and 60s that are leaving marriages. And it's interesting how often when I tell people I'm in my 40s, like, and they're like, oh my God, I'm so sorry, are you okay? And I'm like, I am fine and I am not sorry. Like, this was the absolute right, best decision for both of them. They stayed in a relationship where they were mostly miserable with each other for a very long time. And I just am curious your thoughts because this is my personal anecdotal experiences. Sometimes what actually does the most damage to our kids is, is staying in a relationship where there is conflict and tension and it's obvious and it's ever present and it's not changing. And we're. They're so worried about divorce where it's like, no, the damage is being done on the Daily Friend.

[Erin Levine]

Yeah.

[Nicole Khalil]

What are your thoughts?

[Erin Levine]

Well, first of all, 80% of adult children say that they are very happy, if not content with the fact that their parents got divorced. They don't wish that they were still together. But I think fighting in front of kids can be healthy and normal. The problem becomes when it's the same issues over and over and over again and you're not modeling any resolution, that's really harmful to children. The second thing that's really harmful for children in quote, unquote, intact marriages, is when you have a situation where you're modeling a loveless marriage. Is that really the type of relationship that you want your kids to be in? Because they're watching. Yeah, they're watching far more than what they're, than what you're saying. So that. Yes, there's lots of research on that being, you know, very, very unhealthy. They always say you just need one household to be stable and healthy and happy, to have well adjusted children, and that that can be far better than being in, in a family, in a nuclear family where the parents are miserable.

[Nicole Khalil]

Yeah. We talk a lot about human behavior on the show, basically. And what I've come to learn is that our beliefs pretty much drive everything. And we form our beliefs often at a very young age based on our experiences and environments. And unless we actively challenge those beliefs as we are older, we're going to default them. So all of that to say we can say all day long to our kids what we want for them. They're going to most likely create what they've experienced or recreate what they've experienced because that's what's formed their belief around what marriage is or what it should look like. And that scares the shit out of me for a lot of people.

[Erin Levine]

And now it scares the shit out of me. So.

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[Nicole Khalil]

No, I, I mean, I've, Jay and I, my husband, we've had this conversation many times and I know it sounds harsh, but it's like I want to model something that we would choose, actively choose for our daughter. And if we can't, then we need to figure that out, whatever that means, and move. But that's always at the Forefront of my mind is like, is this a marriage or a relationship or a partnership that I would want for her? And my answer is unequivocally, yes. Now, there are moments where I'm like, no, this sucks. Right? We all have those. But generally speaking, on the whole, the answer is yes. And, God, I would fight for that all day. And if we get to a point where the answer is mostly no, then I would fight for ending that relationship because that would be certainly what would be best for the two of us, but also for her.

[Erin Levine]

A hundred percent. Yeah. I like that framing.

[Nicole Khalil]

Total tangent personal in nature there. But I know some states have, like, way stricter requirements, like a certain amount of time frame that needs to go by. What are some of the biggest landmines that exist in certain states that we might want to be aware of?

[Erin Levine]

That's a great question. I think, first of all, one thing to remember is that we don't want divorce to last two to three years. That's a very long time to be sitting in uncertainty and conflict. And unfortunately, a lot of divorces do. In fact, most divorces do. Now, that being said, divorce isn't going to happen overnight. We have to unwind a lot, and we have to do it in a way that sets us up for a really solid foundation going into our next chapter. So we're looking closer to six to eight months of this total process. Now, in some states, there are landmines that you absolutely need to be aware of. So as an example, in California, after you file your initial divorce petition, you can't finalize it for another six months. So even if you have your agreement and you're ready to go, you still have to wait. It's called a waiting period. In other states, particularly some of the Southern states, like South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, there's actually a waiting period before you can even file for divorce. So that means that you can alert your spouse. You can, if you have somewhat of a cooperative relationship, you can start to work out the terms of your agreement, but you can't actually file for sometimes six months or a year until you've proven that you've been separated. And then states like South Carolina take it to a whole nother level where they require a witness, a third party, to say, yep, they didn't have sex, they weren't together, they've actually been separated before you can proceed. And then I think the biggest, other landmine, and I would say completely unfair law, is that in some states, you can't finalize your divorce if you're pregnant, if you're with an abusive spouse, if you've been separated for seven years and you've moved on with someone else, if you're pregnant, you can't, in many states, finalize that divorce. So these are rare exceptions, but they do come up. And it's a good example of just how punitive the divorce system can be, especially for women.

[Nicole Khalil]

Yeah, I'm glad you said it exactly that way, because that's often how it feels. And we don't. We want to leave women at the end of this feeling empowered and knowledgeable, even though we know some of these things exist out there. My last question is if there's anyone listening right now who might be wondering whether divorce is on the table for them, what's something that you would hope that they would know or carry with them as they make that decision or before they make that decision.

[Erin Levine]

I think people know subconsciously or in their gut long before they're willing to say it out loud. And I would say, listen to that piece. Like, listen to that part of you that every day is questioning the environment that you're in and what your relationship looks like. Divorce has evolved so much, and yet there's still this culture of shame. I should be doing this. I should try harder. You did. You absolutely did. And this is where it's at. And sometimes relationships are just complete. They're not bad, they're not failed, they worked until they didn't. And it's so important to listen to that voice and give yourself the freedom to be able to tell yourself, this is what I want. It doesn't mean you have to do anything today, but to make that decision when you're ready. Yeah.

[Nicole Khalil]

And based on our conversation, I would add believing that a good divorce is an available option. I think so often we default to it's going to be messy, it's going to be ugly, I'm going to get screwed, or whatever version of the bad version we hear about and see on TV all the time. What really jumped out to me is that a good divorce is an available option at a far greater rate than we might be thinking. And so what would be possible if we started with that as the goal or the baseline and move forward from there? So thank you for offering that perspective to all of us. And I want to remind the listener that you can go to hellodivorce. Com. The website has literally everything from divorce processes by state, resources, like all different kinds of financial calculators, worksheets, checklists, even an opportunity to schedule a free information call and a ton of other resources that Aaron already mentioned. And you can also follow hello Divorce on Instagram. Aaron, thank you for doing this work, for minimizing the chaos and the cost that we are seeing out there in in the business world of divorce, and for being here today.

[Erin Levine]

Thanks for having me.

[Nicole Khalil]

All right, friend, let me close us out with a quote Aaron shared with me and that's a good divorce is better than a bad marriage. And I think for a lot of people that statement feels borderline blasphemous because we've been taught that staying is noble, that enduring is admirable, and that sacrificing is just part of marriage, which is especially convenient for the partner benefiting from all of that sacrificing. But sometimes the bravest thing any of us can do is be honest about what's no longer working. Whether divorce is something you've lived through, are considering hope never applies to you. Whatever the version is, this conversation is really about something bigger. Knowing your options, getting informed instead of staying afraid, and remembering that you are allowed, encouraged even to have relationships that feel reciprocal and connected. A life that brings you joy whether you share that life with a partner or not. Because you only get this one life. So sometimes the most important relationship you save and the only person you should never ever leave is yourself. And this this is Woman's Work.

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