← This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
What Does a Woman Have to Do to Be Believed? Sexual Assault, Accountability & Double Standards with E. Jean Carroll | 363
00:37:08
Journalist and author E. Jean Carroll joins Nicole to talk about her book Not My Type, her landmark sexual assault and defamation cases against Donald Trump, and what her fight reveals about believing women, holding powerful men accountable, and turning rage into resistance, laughter, and action. This episode dives into the courtroom drama, the trauma responses nobody talks about, and the practical ways we can all stand up for truth and women’s rights — paperclip and all.
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- [00:01]
A
Hi.
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B
I'm here to pick up my son, Milo.
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A
There's no Milo here. Who picked up my son from school?
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B
Streaming only on Peacock.
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A
I'm gonna need the name of everyone that could have a connection.
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B
You don't understand. It was just the five of us.
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A
So this was all planned?
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B
What are you gonna do?
- [00:19]
A
I will do whatever it takes to get my son back. I honestly didn't see this coming. These nice people killing each other. All her fault.
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B
A new series.
- [00:28]
A
Streaming now only on Peacockes. Bien encon uno se vuelben bastante practicas el Volkswagen confucianes premium como los acientos del anteros con masa dispon Ibles solo parese extravagante.
- [01:11]
B
I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. And since redefining woman's work can often mean facing big challenges, hard truths, and a whole lot of head trash, I very often lean on a tool that has helped me cut through a lot of the noise. I ask myself these four questions. What are the facts? What am I making up about the facts? Is there another way to see it? And how do I get into action from here? And today's episode feels like a good time to use that framework because our guest and our topic will definitely trigger opinions, beliefs and judgments. Maybe you come to the show already believing E. Jean Carroll, or maybe you don't. Maybe your politics drive your perspective. Maybe you come to this conversation looking to learn, maybe looking to criticize. The truth is, we'd be hard pressed to find anyone who is listening from a completely neutral and open place. So I'm going to start us off with the first question. What are the facts? Well, here are some of them. Elizabeth Jean Carroll is a journalist, the author of five books, including a biography of Hunter S. Thompson and the New York Times bestselling book Not My Type. One woman versus a President. Her Ask E. Jean advice column ran an Elle magazine for over 25 years, making it one of the longest running advice columns in American publishing. She was named one of times most influential people in the world. In 2024, she accused Donald Trump of sexual assault, sued him for defamation and battery. And In May of 2023, an upstate New York jury found Trump liable for sexual ab, not rape under New York's technical definition and defamation and awarded Carroll $5 million. In January 2024, a separate jury found Trump liable for defamation related to remarks he made after the first verdict and awarded 83.3 million in damages. Trump filed a counterclaim against E. Jean Carroll, which was dismissed in 2024. He lost his initial appeal of the verdict in June of 25. His request for an en banc hearing was denied. In September of 25, the 2nd U.S. circuit Court of Appeals upheld the 83.3 million defamation verdict against him. Those are the facts as of the time of this recording. So what do I make up about the facts? Well, from my perspective, E. Jean Carroll is my kind of woman. Strong, funny, a torchbearer for writing your own rules and giving the finger to the shoulds and the supposed tos. She took on power and she won. And still. Still, we live in a country that elected a man twice divorced, known for his infidelity, and whose companies have filed for bankruptcy six times and then reelected that same man after a jury found him liable for sexual abuse and defamation. What I make about the facts is this. No woman ever could get elected to anything, not even PTA president with that same track record. Far too many men and women bend over backwards to excuse the inexcusable and powerful men while dismissing and discrediting women, even when the facts leave little room for doubt. So what are you making up about the facts? That's the question I'd like you to carry as you listen today. Because beyond the headlines, the opinions and the drama, there is E. Jean's story, her perspective, her voice, and her power. Aegean Carroll, thank you for being our guest. I want to start by asking you, did I misstate, misunderstand, or misrepresent any important facts before we dive into our conversation?
- [05:00]
A
No. That was brilliant. Wow.
- [05:02]
B
Yeah.
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A
Okay, good.
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B
Just making sure I didn't mess anything up.
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A
I was. That was striking when you said no woman who had been divorced twice and bankrupted six times and accused by 16 men of sexual misbehavior could have been voted, as you say, onto school board or to anything in the country. It is astonishing. And you really brought home that fact. Thank you, Nicole.
- [05:39]
B
Thank you. My pleasure. Well, my pleasure to bring it home. Not my pleasure. That that's the current state we live in. Right. It's so incredibly frustrating.
- [05:47]
A
I had not thought of it that way. That had never occurred to me. Yes, I'm frustrated that he is voted president after not just me, but 16 other very credible, some say 23 women, some say 48 women, and have accused him of misbehavior. That, to me, is amazing. That women are not believed in this country when a powerful man speaks.
- [06:17]
B
Right. And not believed by men, but also by women.
- [06:21]
A
Oh, don't get me started, girl. No, don't get me started. I cannot.
- [06:28]
B
It's so frustrating.
- [06:29]
A
Yes, yes.
- [06:31]
B
Okay. So I have to ask you, because I have to imagine people say things like, you did this in order to write a book or to get fame or to make money when the trials were happening, did you ever imagine writing this book? Did you intend it? You, I know, kept the book a secret. Talk us through, you know, this idea that. That was an end game for you.
- [06:55]
A
Here's the thing. If I wanted to write a book about something, it wouldn't have been about being sexually assault. That, yes, I loved. Listen, I love to write. I'm a writer. I'm an old, elderly journalist who has earned her living for 45 years telling the story of what's going on around her. So, of course, when the trial. When the two trials started, if you've ever looked at a trial transcript in your life, they are some of the most hysterical documents in the world. And I saw I was placed in such a weird and comic and unusual world of a trial which I had never been near in my life. It was also astonishing, of course, the journalists in me. Every night, I would go back to my hotel room and speak into my recorder and remember and call forth every detail of what happened that day, everything I could remember. I also had all of the newspaper stories every day, all of the blogs, all the tweets. I was watching the world watch what was going on, and I was in the middle of it. So, of course, in the back of my mind, just in case I decided to write a book, there's something always in the back. Well, you're. You know this, you're a journalist. Always in the back of our mind is we'll write about it. Why? Because it's the way I process the world. It's the way I process what happens to me. I sit down and I write about it. And so, of course, I wrote the book had nothing to do with, you know, when six years ago, when I accused Donald Trump. No, that was not. And that's. No.
- [08:53]
B
Well, that explains a lot, because your attention to detail in the book is pretty intense. So that makes sense that you were recording as it was happening. My question is, why do you describe so much detail? Why do you go into what everybody's wearing, what people are eating, like what. What about the details was so important for you to share?
- [09:13]
A
Well, as we all know, in Every sexual assault trial, you know, for the last 2000 years, it is all centered on the woman's body and what she has on that body. And if she looks sexy wearing that body. And what was she wearing? Was it too provocative? Is it. So this time I just turned around and described what every man in the. What the judge was wearing, what the attorneys were wearing. I described what everyone was wearing also. I'm just into clothes. And Judge Lewis A. Kaplan's federal court Runway is one of the most fantastic in New York. And it's also the way I. And I think every woman listening to this is going to understand. My clothing was my armor, Nicole. It is how I got my confidence. I could feel those clothes holding me in and keeping me button tight, protecting my perimeter. Also, we all know that when we feel we look good, we feel good and we have more confidence. So clothes are essential. Essential, yeah.
- [10:38]
B
And the title of your book, Not My Type, was there an element of your clothes and your armor and how you had to show up? I mean, my understanding is the title came from Trump saying that this never happened because you weren't his type of. But in the book, you talk about how part of the legal strategy that you had to deal with was making the jury see that you were, in fact, his type. Yeah, talk to us about that. And, I mean, that had to have been kind of challenging.
- [11:12]
A
Well, actually, Robby Kaplan, one of the world's great attorneys and certainly one of the finest attorneys of her entire generation, she is my attorney. She was with her partners in Mar? A Lago, and she was deposing Donald Trump. This. You know what? I was completely ignorant. I had no idea there was such a thing as depositions before trial, Nicole. I was completely like a lamb to the sloth. Anyway, so Robbie is down in Mar? A Lago deposing Donald Trump, and she tells Donald Trump three times that she is going to show him a picture of E. Jean Carroll. This is all on tape, by the way, all on video with court transcribers, et cetera, et cetera. She says three times she's going to show him a picture of E. Jean Carroll. She's saying this to the very man who, when he was president, said numerous times, she is not my type. He said, sitting at the Resolute desk, she is not my type. So that's what she's working with. So in the deposition, she tells him she's going to show him a picture of Eugene Perel, and then she puts down in front of him about five minutes later, a photo of a group. She said, can you please identify the people in this photograph? And Trump looks at it. He looks right at Ivana Trump. He says, I don't know who that is. Then he points to me and says, that's Marla. And Rami said, the woman you're pointing to is Marla. He said, yeah, yeah, that's Marla. That's my wife. And then Alina Haba, his attorney, jumps in. No, that's Carol. So that is where the title comes from.
- [13:16]
B
Right.
- [13:16]
A
He said I was not his type. But of course, as every woman knows, he is not my type. That is the center of the. He was not my type, and he shouldn't be anybody's type, frankly.
- [13:31]
B
Yeah, you mentioned this already and is almost always the case in any sort of sexual assault or rape case where what a woman was doing, what she was wearing, any choice she's made, you know, comes into question. And one of those components is, of course, your sexual history. And I say of course because it happens all the time, not because it should be part of. Of this. Your sexual history was very much a part of the trial. And my question is, how did that feel? Was it painful to relive? Did, like, does it actually have anything to do with the case here? Talk to us about that.
- [14:11]
A
But I love talking about my lovers. Love them. You know what? You want to talk about my sexual history? Fine, bring it on. Because my lovers were the best. I mean, I had great lovers. And so, no, that was, like, a high point for me. I loved. You know what? And by the way, after they learned how much I loved talking about my lovers and how fabulous my sexual history was, they never asked me again about it. They just didn't. You know what? Women are allowed to love sex, and they're allowed to be proud of their history and their lives, you know, And I had some fabulous lovers, and I made that perfectly clear in the deposition, because I started out with the man with whom I lost my virginity. I believe he lost his virginity, too, at the time. And he was an Olympic gold medal winner. Okay. That's how that was just starting out. So the list was fantastic. The guys are fantastic. And where my sexual history did come into play is that I never had sex again after the assault in Bergdorf. Never. That's what happened. I just never was able to afterward. So that's where it comes. That's where my sexual history did, as you say, played an important role in the trial.
- [15:38]
B
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- [19:29]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [19:31]
B
And not. Right. This isn't somebody who's claiming that every sexual encounter she's ever had, you clearly knew the difference between something you wanted and enjoyed and something that you did not.
- [19:41]
A
Yeah, yeah. And when I came forward in 2019 and told my story in New York magazine, it was after within, you know, within minutes of that magazine article hitting. I expected him to deny it, of course, and to say it was consensual. That's what I expected. I was not prepared for him to call me a liar 26 times. That was the thing that got me 26 times in three days from the White House calling me a liar. That was stunning to me.
- [20:26]
B
And all the consequences that stem from that. I have to imagine that dramatically impacted your ability to work, your safety, your credibility.
- [20:36]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. My, I was fired. I lost my who's going to write to an advice columnist who the President of the United States is calling a liar? I mean, it really hit. I'm a journalist. My whole reason way I live is to find the facts, report the facts, tell the facts. That's what I do. Because if you run around nacho on the facts, you Don't. You're not a journalist for long, and you can't be hired, and you can't work at magazines, which is what I. And you can't write books. So it just killed me. I mean, that was that. That took my name. That was it.
- [21:10]
B
And yet, in reading the book, laughter plays a pretty big role. I have to imagine the court transcripts are probably pretty dry. Eliminate the story and stick to the facts type thing. But in your book, there is quite a bit of your story. There is a quite a bit of laughter. You bring some joy to some heavy. Why was that important to you? Why is that important to you?
- [21:37]
A
Because life is a comedy, Nicole. If we don't understand life as a comedy, if we think of life as a tragedy, then we're gonna live a little bit of a sad life. No, life is a comedy. And the courtroom scenes, even though the courtroom transcripts, actually, if you get into them, they're very funny. I mean, just think of what they're doing, you know? How far did he pull down your tights? Up to here. Up to here? No, down to here. Where was that? That's a very funny situation about a very tragic event. But the way it's torn to shreds, it was so bizarre that either you laugh or you just give up, you know? So that's most. Yes. The entire book is a. Well, it's the story of a triumph, so it's a good story.
- [22:35]
B
Right. Trump's defense attorney also made much of your reaction in the trial when Trump forced himself on you in the dressing room. My understanding is you laughed at one point, and he spent a lot of time trying to tell you, you should have reacted differently. Why didn't you scream?
- [22:55]
A
Yeah, yeah, that.
- [22:56]
B
Tell us about that.
- [22:57]
A
That was a big moment in the trial. Well, I think everybody listening to your podcast understands that when you get into a situation, a man has erotic intentions, One of the great ways to shut him down is to laugh.
- [23:13]
B
Right?
- [23:13]
A
I mean, there's very little else. It works like a good laugh at a guy to be like, he will be drawn away from his intention. So that's what I did also, when the attack started, apparently, I kept laughing, and I kept laughing all the way through it, because when I called my best friend, she was not my best friend at the time, oddly enough. I called Lisa Bernbach, who was the funniest writer I knew. So I called Lisa, and. And I'm laughing on the phone, and she had to tell me to Jean, stop laughing. Or I don't know her exact words. Or I think she said, I don't think this is funny, Eugene. So apparently I laughed. And so that's what I reported. That's how I said. And so Joe Tacopina, Joe Tacopina, shaped like Popeye, one of the great criminal defense and attorneys in the country, could not stop banging on that because he, he was from the 1700s. And if a woman doesn't scream, then a woman is not being attacked.
- [24:22]
B
Right.
- [24:23]
A
Apparently he's never met a woman. Every woman reacts differently.
- [24:27]
B
Well, and it even goes to the different trauma responses. Yes, there's, you know, flight and fight.
- [24:33]
A
Yes.
- [24:33]
B
And freeze. But there's also now identified Fawn trauma response, which is, I think, I don't know if that's what happened here. I'm not by any means diagnosing or anything like that. But this thing that sometimes we do as women when we're in a situation where we don't have physical power, where we laugh or flirt or whatever, you know, to try to save ourselves, that.
- [24:56]
A
Is almost in all situations where when a do not has a physical power to overcome because we are outweighed and out hided and outpowered. It's very rare where the situation where the woman is stronger than the man. Yes, every woman reacts differently.
- [25:14]
B
What evidence did we not get to hear about or it wasn't reported on or covered that you thought should have been?
- [25:21]
A
Well, number one, we were going to use Epstein tapes, and Michael Wolff, the journalist, has hours and hours and hours of Epstein tapes, and he has a tape of Epstein on the phone telling a friend about running into Trump shortly after the event at Bergdorf and Trump, quote, regaling him with the, quote, torrid details of the attack. Now, that is, as they say, gold when it comes to evidence. But it was Robbie Kaplan. First of all, she thought that Judge Kaplan would never allow it in because it's so prejudicial. You cannot say the word Epstein in a court trial and expect the jury to remember anything else after that. So she pretty much thought that Judge Kaplan would not allow it. Also, there was a hearsay problem. However, you know, that did not go in as evidence. Robbie has many opinions about it and everybody else has many opinions about it, but it did not go in. And even without it, we won. So there. Right.
- [26:37]
B
I know part of your team's legal strategy was to put on a mock trial. Out of curiosity, what was the mock trial jury verdict, and what did that help you with when it came to your actual trial?
- [26:51]
A
Oh, well, you know, I didn't know there was such a thing. As mock trials. I had no idea. Before the OJ Trials, they ran huge mock trials. What you do is you get prospective jurors chosen from the same jury pool that they do in, in the Southern district, which is the Southern district in New York is not, don't think Manhattan. We're not talking Manhattan here. We're talking about upstate New York. You know, we're talking about the Trump counties. We're talking, you know, so the Southern district of New York is huge. So we drew prospective jurors from the same jury pool. They come to a ballroom in downtown New York. There are 27 of them, and then they're divided into three juries of nine each. And the entire case is presented to these people. And it starts with giving the evidence. We have somebody playing Trump's lawyers. We showed tapes from his deposition trials. We showed tapes of me in my deposition. Then we had people reading the witnesses reports and we presented a case. Everything was perfect. All three juries agreed. Yes, something happened in the Bergdorf dressing room in 1996. They all agreed. Yes, something sexual happened in the Bergdorf dressing room in 1997. And all three of them absolutely agreed, 100% down the line that the two people in the dressing room in the Bergdorfs in 1997 were E. Jean Crowell and Donald Trump. What they did not agree on was they thought I wanted it because I was too old and ugly for Donald Trump to attack. So my attorneys and I, we changed my look back to exactly how I looked in 1996. Who did the hair, we did the makeup. I Wore clothes from 1996. I still have the great classics from 96. So that helped the jury have an idea that I could be the woman who was in that dressing room in 1996. Because they're looking at an old 82. Well, at the time, a 79 year old woman in the courtroom, it's very hard to picture a woman younger. As we all know, it's impossible. But the hair and the makeup and the clothes helped and we proved our case.
- [29:31]
B
Yeah, again, back to the. I don't know if double standard is the right term, but the idea that people would believe that Donald Trump was so attractive that people wanted to have sex with him, given how he looks today, is mind blasting to me too. But that's a topic for another day. The juries awarded you 5 million and then north of 83 million. When, I mean, do you, have you gotten that money? When do you get that money? What are you going to do with it? What does that mean for you?
- [30:00]
A
Well, as you can see, I live in a hovel, and so buying stuff is not part of my happiness. What I'm going to do is I'm going to take that money and I'm going to give it to everything Donald Trump hates. Mainly, number one, is devoting that money to getting women's rights back. The rights of our own body, the rights to educate our children, the rights for health care, get our women's rights back, because they are being taken away at a rate which is astonishing. So that's basically what I'm going to do with the money.
- [30:38]
B
Thank you on behalf of women for doing that. And I'm curious about your experience being in the. The courtroom. And then now that the verdicts are in and the elections have happened, like, how do you stand being in a room with this person, having this person be the president? Like, how do you even live in. In this crazy reality that we're in?
- [31:05]
A
Well, first of all, being in a courtroom with Trump was edifying because he misbehaved the whole time. And it's funny because when a jury watches Trump hour after hour, and they were glued to him. Glued. They were mesmerized by him. You can't take your eyes off him because, number one, he's the most powerful man in the world, no question. And two, the most powerful man in the world is just behaving in eccentrically weird ways, moaning and groaning and hissing and spitting and staring and just. And he was very old and very, very fat. He treated his criminal defense lawyer, Alina Haba, terribly to watch for the woman juror, although we only had two women jurors to watch him mistreat a woman right in front of him. So when people actually get a chance to see him in person, they voted him guilty. Guilty. Now, he gets away with the voters because at the end of each day in trial, he would go out and talk to the press. I'm the one who's damaged.
- [32:32]
B
He was.
- [32:33]
A
I'm the one who suffered. I'm the one who deserves the money. His voters, his supporters, they just laugh that up. I have no idea what kind of. I don't know what it is that attracts them to him. I think it's because he's rich and they all want to be rich. I think that's it. They all want to be him. Right? I guess I don't. What else?
- [32:57]
B
Well, it's curious because what you said happened in the courtroom, I think, is how I perceive a little bit about what's happening is, you know, people Are glued and mesmerized to his misbehavior.
- [33:10]
A
Yes.
- [33:10]
B
Yes. It is really interesting. I just wonder if there is an element of, like, people wishing they could get away with the same thing or. I have to be clear here. For me, my issue isn't political. It's. I just can't. I go back to. No woman would ever have been elected given the same track record. And I can't even get into Democrat versus Republican or any of those things. It's the misbehaving. It's the. No, that behavior wouldn't be acceptable anywhere else or by anyone else. Why are we so mesmerized? And why are we so willing to explain away or dismiss? That's the part I have a really hard time with.
- [33:52]
A
I have a hard time just listening to you say you have a hard time. It is amazing because. Because the word dismiss, they somehow ignore the 16 or 23 women who've come forward. They just say, I don't believe it. Right. That's how they handle it. But why don't they believe it? Maybe three women, okay, maybe three women could get together and conspire to bring down the president. Maybe four women. But 16 women. And to have one woman such as myself go through courts for six years. Six years and take a lot of crap because of it and still not be believed. I don't know what a woman has to do in this country to be believed. What does she have to do? I mean, what does she have to win in court? Yes, she wins in court. Is she believed? No. What does she have to do?
- [35:00]
B
God, even if there was video evidence, there'd still be people who wouldn't believe.
- [35:04]
A
Of course, we had 11 witnesses. But here's the thing. Sexual assault is rarely witnessed by anybody.
- [35:12]
B
Right.
- [35:13]
A
That is no reason not to believe a woman. And women rarely go to the police. Rare. It's rare. So that is the other reason why the woman is not. So I just. Yeah, you brought up a very good point.
- [35:31]
B
Well, and that question, I think, is the fundamental one that is at the core of all of this, is what does a woman have to do in order to be believed? And what does a powerful man have to do to be held accountable?
- [35:47]
A
I don't know.
- [35:48]
B
I don't know either.
- [35:49]
A
I have no idea.
- [35:51]
B
My last question is if there's anything that you would share from your experience up to this point. Because it's not completely over. Right. What is something that you would want to share or that you wish more people understood about your experience.
- [36:08]
A
Well, I wish they understood that if one old woman, one 82 year old woman can beat Donald Trump, anybody could be and just stand the hell up and resist. That's all it takes. And people seem a little frightened right now. And this is the time when we got to get it together. This is why I'm wearing the paperclip. Do you see this?
- [36:34]
B
Yeah.
- [36:35]
A
Paperclip. It stands for resisting Donald Trump in the Second World War. People showed their resistance to the Nazis by wearing the paperclip. Everybody, I would like everybody who listens to your podcast to start wearing the paper clip. Show your resistance to Trump.
- [36:55]
B
Well, thank you for being bold and brave, for standing up for yourself and all of us, for taking all of the heat and all of the things in order to stand your ground. And I'm just so grateful for you and for you being here today. Welcome.
- [37:13]
A
Thank you, Nicole. It was a lot. I love talking to you. Thank you very much.
- [37:17]
B
My pleasure. All right, friend. The book, again, is not my type. Go to bookshop.org or go to your local bookstore. Let's keep our local bookstores in business. And all of the links to Ms. Carol's substack and social media accounts and all the things you need to know are gonna be in show notes so you can find and follow her.
- [37:34]
A
Fantastic.
- [37:36]
B
Yes. And thank you again. Okay, friend, what have you been making up about the facts? And is there a different way to see it? Maybe it's this. That laughter can live right alongside pain. That strength does not mean silence. And that a woman standing up for herself in the face of power isn't just her fight. It reshapes what's possible for all of us. And how do we get into action from here? Well, first, we believe more women. We hold people accountable. We stop excusing the inexcusable. We keep telling the truth, even when it's uncomfortable, even when it's unpopular, even when the world would rather we sit down and shut up. Because this. This refusal to be silenced, this insistence on choice, truth and accountability, this is. It has to be woman's work.