Episode Summary

Podcast: This Is Woman’s Work with Nicole Kalil

Episode 363: What Does a Woman Have to Do to Be Believed? Sexual Assault, Accountability & Double Standards with E. Jean Carroll

Release Date: November 19, 2025

Episode Overview

In this powerful and candid episode, Nicole Kalil sits down with journalist, author, and cultural icon E. Jean Carroll to explore the pervasive double standards faced by women—especially those who dare to challenge powerful men. The conversation navigates Carroll’s personal experience taking Donald Trump to court, the collateral consequences women face when speaking out about sexual assault, and the societal failures to believe and support survivors. Together, Nicole and E. Jean shed light on why, even with clear evidence and legal victories, women’s voices are so often doubted or dismissed.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Facts, Perceptions, and Judgment

• Nicole uses her four-question framework to interrogate facts versus narratives, inviting listeners to consider:
  • What are the facts?
  • What am I making up about the facts?
  • Is there another way to see it?
  • How do I get into action from here?
• Summary of E. Jean Carroll’s Case:
  Nicole details Carroll’s career and her legal battle against Donald Trump—her accusations, the defamation and sexual abuse trials, the verdicts, and the damages awarded.
• Double Standard Highlight:
  “No woman ever could get elected to anything, not even PTA president with that same track record.... Far too many men and women bend over backwards to excuse the inexcusable... while dismissing and discrediting women, even when the facts leave little room for doubt.” — Nicole (03:13)

2. Unpacking the (Un)Believability of Women’s Stories

• E. Jean Carroll affirms Nicole’s summary and is struck by the enduring double standard in politics and culture:
  • “It is astonishing... I am frustrated that he is voted president after not just me, but 16 other very credible, some say 23 women, some say 48 women, have accused him of misbehavior. That, to me, is amazing. That women are not believed in this country when a powerful man speaks.” — E. Jean (05:05)
• Both women observe that the disbelief is often also perpetuated by other women.
  • “[Women] bend over backwards to excuse the inexcusable... while dismissing and discrediting women.” — Nicole (03:13)

3. On the Motives to Speak Out and Writing as Healing

• E. Jean refutes the notion that she accused Trump for fame or to write a book:
  • “If I wanted to write a book about something, it wouldn’t have been about being sexually assault[ed].” — E. Jean (06:54)
  • She underscores writing as a mechanism for processing trauma and details her habit of recording daily events during the trial, capturing both fact and feeling.

4. The Role of Clothing and Perception in the Trial

• E. Jean intentionally describes courtroom clothing—not just hers but everyone’s—flipping the legal tradition that fixates solely on victims’ appearances:

  • “My clothing was my armor, Nicole. It is how I got my confidence.... When we feel we look good, we feel good and we have more confidence. So clothes are essential.” — E. Jean (09:13)

• Origin of Book Title ‘Not My Type’

  • The title comes from Trump’s repeated denial—“she is not my type”—and his deposition confusion, mistaking E. Jean for his ex-wife in a photo.
  • “He said I was not his type. But of course, as every woman knows, he is not my type.” — E. Jean (13:16)

5. Weaponizing Sexual History

• Nicole and E. Jean discuss how a woman’s sexual history is perennially used to discredit her in court:

  • “My lovers were the best.... Where my sexual history did come into play is that I never had sex again after the assault in Bergdorf. Never. That's what happened.” — E. Jean (14:10)

• Nicole notes: “This is a woman who understands the difference between consent and not.” (19:30)

6. Impact of Public Denial & Personal Fallout

• Trump called Carroll a liar 26 times in three days; this public campaign led to Carroll’s professional isolation and job loss:
  • “Who's going to write to an advice columnist who the President of the United States is calling a liar?... That took my name. That was it.” — E. Jean (20:35)

7. Finding Power in Humor

• Despite the seriousness, E. Jean believes in finding comedy amidst tragedy:
  • “Life is a comedy, Nicole. If we don't understand life as a comedy, if we think of life as a tragedy, then we're gonna live a little bit of a sad life.” — E. Jean (21:36)
  • She recognizes the absurdities in courtroom questioning, especially about deeply personal matters.

8. Judging Trauma Responses

• Trump’s defense interrogated Carroll’s laughter during the assault, suggesting it undermined her claim:
  • “Apparently I kept laughing... and I kept laughing all the way through it.... Every woman reacts differently.” — E. Jean (22:57)
• Nicole contextualizes this as a legitimate “fawn” trauma response, used by women who lack physical power to defuse or survive a threat. (24:33)

9. Evidence, Mock Trials, and Legal Strategy

• Not all evidence could be presented (notably tapes connecting Trump and Epstein); still, Carroll's legal team succeeded.
  • “Even without it, we won. So there.” — E. Jean (25:20)
• A mock trial helped shape strategy: jurors saw E. Jean as “too old” to be assaulted and thus unlikely, leading her team to style her to look as she did in 1996.
  • “The hair and the makeup and the clothes helped and we proved our case.” — E. Jean (28:49)

10. Justice and Reparations

• Nicole asks about the $83M award:
  • “I'm going to take that money and I'm going to give it to everything Donald Trump hates. Mainly...getting women's rights back.” — E. Jean (30:00)

11. Witnessing Power—and Its Spectacle

• On sharing a courtroom with Trump and public perceptions:
  • “The most powerful man in the world is just behaving in eccentrically weird ways, moaning and groaning and hissing and spitting and staring.... And he was very old and very, very fat. He treated his criminal defense lawyer, Alina Haba, terribly to watch.... So when people actually get a chance to see him in person, they voted him guilty.” — E. Jean (31:04)
• On Trump supporters: “I think it’s because he's rich and they all want to be rich. I think that’s it. They all want to be him.” (32:57)

12. The Central Question: What Does a Woman Have to Do to Be Believed?

• Nicole: “Why are we so mesmerized? And why are we so willing to explain away or dismiss?” (33:10)

• E. Jean: “What does a woman have to do in this country to be believed? What does she have to do? I mean, what does she have to win in court? Yes, she wins in court. Is she believed? No. What does she have to do?” (33:52)

• Both agree: Even video evidence and multiple witnesses often aren’t enough. The legal and social deck remains stacked. (34:59)

13. Resilience and the Call to Action

• E. Jean’s final message:
  • “If one old woman, one 82-year-old woman can beat Donald Trump, anybody could be and just stand the hell up and resist.... This is why I’m wearing the paperclip.... I would like everybody who listens to your podcast to start wearing the paperclip. Show your resistance to Trump.” (36:07)
• Nicole closes by reminding listeners: “That a woman standing up for herself in the face of power… reshapes what’s possible for all of us.” (37:35)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |---------------|-----------|-------------| | 03:13 | “No woman ever could get elected to anything, not even PTA president with that same track record.... Far too many men and women bend over backwards to excuse the inexcusable... while dismissing and discrediting women, even when the facts leave little room for doubt.” | Nicole | | 05:05 | “It is astonishing... That women are not believed in this country when a powerful man speaks.” | E. Jean Carroll | | 06:54 | “If I wanted to write a book about something, it wouldn’t have been about being sexually assault[ed].” | E. Jean Carroll | | 09:13 | “My clothing was my armor, Nicole. It is how I got my confidence.... When we feel we look good, we feel good and we have more confidence.” | E. Jean Carroll | | 13:16 | “He said I was not his type. But of course, as every woman knows, he is not my type.” | E. Jean Carroll | | 20:35 | “Who's going to write to an advice columnist who the President of the United States is calling a liar?... That took my name. That was it.” | E. Jean Carroll | | 21:36 | “Life is a comedy, Nicole. If we don't understand life as a comedy, if we think of life as a tragedy, then we're gonna live a little bit of a sad life.” | E. Jean Carroll | | 22:57 | “Apparently I kept laughing... and I kept laughing all the way through it.... Every woman reacts differently.” | E. Jean Carroll | | 30:00 | “I'm going to take that money and I'm going to give it to everything Donald Trump hates. Mainly...getting women's rights back.” | E. Jean Carroll | | 33:52 | “What does a woman have to do in this country to be believed?... Is she believed? No. What does she have to do?” | E. Jean Carroll | | 36:07 | “If one old woman, one 82-year-old woman can beat Donald Trump, anybody could be and just stand the hell up and resist.... I would like everybody who listens to your podcast to start wearing the paperclip. Show your resistance to Trump.” | E. Jean Carroll |

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:11] – Nicole introduces the theme and four-question framework
• [03:13] – Double standards in US culture; facts of the Carroll-Trump case
• [05:05] – Carroll on disbelief in women’s stories
• [09:13] – Courtroom fashion, confidence, and perception
• [13:16] – The book title “Not My Type” and Trump’s deposition confusion
• [14:10] – The role of sexual history in assault cases
• [20:35] – Fallout from Trump’s public denial
• [21:36] – Finding humor and perspective in tragedy
• [22:57] – Trauma, laughter as response, and courtroom misconceptions
• [25:20] – Evidence excluded from trial
• [28:49] – Mock trial and legal strategy
• [30:00] – What Carroll will do with the damages awarded
• [31:04] – Observing Trump in the courtroom
• [33:52] – The central question: belief and accountability
• [36:07] – E. Jean’s message of resistance and solidarity

Conclusion & Takeaways

• This episode is a rallying call to believe women, hold the powerful accountable, and question the insidious double standards embedded in our culture and institutions.
• E. Jean Carroll’s story illustrates not just the personal cost of speaking truth to power, but also the resilience, humor, and courage that fuel change.
• Nicole urges listeners to question what they’re “making up” about the facts, and to get into action: “We believe more women. We hold people accountable. We stop excusing the inexcusable.... This refusal to be silenced, this insistence on choice, truth and accountability, this... has to be woman's work.” (37:35)