This Is Woman’s Work with Nicole Kalil

Episode 351: What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses with Mita Mallick

Release Date: October 8, 2025

Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, host Nicole Kalil and guest Mita Mallick—corporate changemaker, LinkedIn Top Voice, and author of The Devil Emails at Midnight—dive into a refreshingly honest conversation about “bad bosses,” leadership learning, and workplace culture. They explore how bad leadership is formed, what good leaders can learn from negative examples, and practical ways for managers to self-reflect, grow, and foster healthier teams. The discussion is candid and nuanced, infused with humor, empathy, and a no-nonsense approach to rewriting the leadership playbook—especially through the lens of women’s authentic experiences at work.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bad Bosses Aren’t Born—They’re Made

([03:41]–[06:46])

• Leadership is Learned: Both Nicole and Mita emphasize that no one is inherently a bad boss; rather, it’s learned through circumstances and modeled behaviors.
• Three Sources of Bad Leadership (Mita):
  1. Market Stress: External pressures like industry changes, competition, or organizational crises.
  2. Trickle-down Behaviors: Leaders model what they've seen, often unconsciously mimicking previous bad bosses.
  3. Personal Catastrophe: Personal turmoil spills into professional life, leading to negative behaviors at work.

“The opening of The Devil Emails at Midnight starts with, ‘I’ve been a bad boss. And chances are so have you.’ ...I have much more empathy for my bad bosses than maybe I did five years ago because I’ve been one.” – Mita Mallick [04:14]

2. Self-Awareness: The Mirror Test

([06:48]–[09:23])

• Self-Reflection: Good leaders courageously reflect on their own behavior after meetings or tough moments.
• Journaling as a Tool: Mita suggests dedicating a brief weekly review to personally auditing your actions and impact.
• Feedback Culture: Beware the trap of seeking praise when asking for feedback; embrace genuine input instead.

“Most of us, if you walk out of a meeting...if you have the courage to sit in silence and think about what just happened, most of us have instincts that something didn't land well... Do you have the courage to sit with yourself and be self-reflecting?” – Mita Mallick [07:06]

3. Classic Bad Boss Behaviors—and Why They Persist

([10:08]–[14:28])

• Micromanagement: Still rampant, especially with new managers unsure how to shift from doing to directing.
• Inaccessibility: Leaders too busy for their teams send a clear signal about priorities.
• Leading with Fear: Short-term results may be gained, but long-term exhaustion and attrition are inevitable.

“If you consistently email at midnight but don't have time for your teams during the day, I'm not sure why you're leading.” – Mita Mallick [10:46]

“There’s nothing like micromanagement to kill the joy at work.” – Mita Mallick [11:27]

4. Modeling Healthy Leadership & Setting Boundaries

([14:28]–[18:37])

• Email/Work Hour Boundaries: Sending emails at odd hours—despite disclaimers—can unintentionally pressure employees. Model the work-life balance you want your team to have.
• Attractive Leadership: Leaders must make leadership look appealing—not punishing—if they want to inspire new leaders.

“You can put all the taglines or say all the things and be as well-intentioned as possible. And sometimes we inadvertently model something.” – Nicole Kalil [17:12]

5. Making Time & Delegating as Core Leadership Skills

([18:41]–[21:30])

• Audit Your Calendar: Regularly declutter meetings and ensure 1:1s are prioritized and not repeatedly delayed.
• Delegate to Develop: Leaders must resist the urge to do and instead empower others, nurturing future leaders.

“The number one job of leaders [is] to develop more leaders.” – Mita Mallick [20:46]

6. Servant Leadership vs. Doing It All

([21:30]–[23:07])

• Healthy Interpretation: Servant leadership means being in service to the team—supporting their growth—not protecting them from “grunt work” that helps them learn.
• Teach and Train: Empower juniors through responsibility and coaching, not by shielding them.

7. Getting Credit & Addressing Stealthy Sabotage

([23:13]–[24:55])

• Advocating for Yourself: Document your contributions, ask to present, and make your work visible.
• Amplifying Others: Publicly credit colleagues’ ideas to foster reciprocity and a culture of recognition.
• Limits with Credit Stealers: If your boss continually takes credit, consider an exit plan; recognition is tied to promotion and advancement.

“The more we give credit to each other, you’ll see it coming back.” – Mita Mallick [24:17]

8. Retention as the Ultimate Leadership Metric

([25:13]–[27:11])

• People Leave Bosses, Not Jobs: High turnover is a warning sign of leadership issues, not perks or benefits shortages.
• Inclusion & Recognition: Employees stay where they feel seen, valued, and recognized for their work.

“We’re chasing the wrong things. We’re trying to do band-aid solutions rather than actually going to the root cause.” – Mita Mallick [25:36]

9. Gender, Bias, and Stereotypes in Leadership

([27:11]–[31:04])

• Gendered Labels: Challenge yourself to apply feedback and labels equally to men and women; scrutinize bias in “difficult” or “aggressive” attributions.
• Ask Open Questions: Interrupt group bias by deliberately considering if the same standards are being applied across genders.
• Different Leaders for Different People: A good boss for one may be a bad one for another; context and subjective fit matter.

“If you are going to put a label on a woman, ask if you would put the same label on a man.” – Mita Mallick [28:32]

10. Managing Up & Knowing When to Move On

([31:01]–[33:29])

• Managing Up Tactics: Retrain bosses by subtly modeling the behavior you want and channeling feedback through process tweaks (e.g., changing response timing, using shared docs).
• Action Plan for Surviving Bad Bosses: If you must endure a difficult boss, focus on what you aim to gain from the stint, set an “expiration date,” and maintain boundaries to protect mental health.

“You can certainly try to retrain them and you can try to create more processes and ways of working as a team and so they don’t feel personally attacked by it. But there is a bit of managing up…know what you want to get out of this moment in your career.” – Mita Mallick [33:06]

Memorable Quotes

• “Bad leadership isn’t gendered and anyone can be an asshole.”
  – Nicole Kalil [02:51]
• “It’s hard to be what you can’t see, right?”
  – Nicole Kalil [03:20]
• “Fear drives short-term results. ... But long term, it has disastrous results.”
  – Mita Mallick [13:31]
• "Check your own behavior, make adjustments, keep learning. Good leaders aren’t born, they’re made.”
  – Nicole Kalil [33:54] (conclusion)

Notable Segment Timestamps

• 03:41: Introduction of Mita Mallick & book premise—bad bosses are made, not born.
• 07:06: Self-awareness, reflection, and journaling as key leadership habits.
• 10:46: The ubiquity and consequences of micromanaging and out-of-hours emails.
• 14:28: Boundaries in digital communication and being a leadership model.
• 18:41: Strategies for leaders to make meaningful time for their teams.
• 20:46: Shifting from doer to developer of leaders.
• 23:38: Self-advocacy for recognition and the risks of working under a credit-stealing boss.
• 25:13: Employee retention as a signal of leadership health.
• 28:32: Gender bias and the double standard in leadership labels.
• 31:50: Managing mental health under bad bosses; exit and “managing up” strategies.

Actionable Takeaways

• Leaders must regularly and honestly self-reflect on their own impact.
• Audit your schedule to prioritize real connections over unnecessary meetings.
• Model healthy boundaries; your behavior sets organizational norms.
• Actively develop those you lead—let others step up.
• Give and ask for honest feedback.
• Recognize and credit the work of others consistently.
• Use retention as a reality check: perks don’t replace healthy leadership.
• Scrutinize gendered assumptions about leaders and hold yourself/others to the same standards.
• If you’re led by a bad boss, document your learning and set boundaries—sometimes survival is strategic.

Final Words

Nicole reminds us that leadership is a choice and a series of learned behaviors—ones we are each responsible for examining, evolving, and modeling. Mita’s wisdom and practical tools offer hope that we can all be better, more inclusive, and more authentic leaders—by growing from even our worst workplace experiences.

For further resources and links (including to Mita Mallick’s book), see episode show notes or visit nicolekalil.com.