← This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
What To Know Before They Go: Collegebound with Dr. Pamela Ellis | 280
00:32:15
Dr. Pamela Ellis, The Education Doctor®, shares expert advice for parents of college-bound teens—how to find the right school, avoid common mistakes, and secure scholarships. Teaser: College shouldn’t break the bank—or your sanity.
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- [00:00]
A
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- [00:42]
B
I am Nicole Kahlil and you're listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and what it feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. And on this episode, we're going to dive into something that many of us have or will experience with a mix of wildly conflicting emotions, and that is sending our kids to college. For those of us who choose to have children and whose children choose to pursue an advanced degree, we're basically signing ourselves up for one of the most bittersweet milestones of parenting. On one hand, we've survived years of school projects, weekends packed with sports and activities, birthday parties where we definitely waited until the last minute to buy a present, and that fit phase where they only ate chicken nuggets or things that were orange. But now. Now you're supposed to just let them fly the nest. Just let them go off to college and believe that they will be safe, healthy and happy on their own. I'm not sure who came up with this genius plan, but I can tell you that it was probably someone stronger than I am. It makes me think of a quote that says there are two lasting bequests we can give our children. One is roots and the other is wings. And yes, that is beautiful and poetic. And yes, it's our job to raise them to build and to function in their own lives. But if we're being honest, it comes with a barrage of fears like will they be okay? Will they miss us, even just a little bit? And remember to call home and choose to spend the holidays with us? Will they take care of themselves and eat moderately well? Or hopefully not burn down the dorm room cooking ramen at 3am? Will they be safe? Will they be happy? Will they find a passion that leads to a career they love and that also somehow pays the bills Will they be okay? Will we be okay? Our job is to raise them to leave us, which is both inspiring and slightly rude. But the transition isn't just hard on them, it's hard on us too. And that's exactly what today's guest is here to help us navigate. Everything you need to know before they go, what to expect, and hopefully how we survive this phase of parenting without humiliating our children by crying and grabbing onto their legs like they did to us when they were little. So if you're caught somewhere between wanting to lovingly shove your kid out of the nest or hold on for dear life, if you're hoping for more confidence and less panic and maybe even some money left in the bank, then this episode is for Dr. Pamela Ellis, also known as the Education Doctor, is a highly sought after speaker who's empowered over 30,000 families to guide their teens into higher education without drowning in stress or debt. Pamela has made it her mission to ensure students find the right college fit without overspending. And her company, Compass College advisory, boasts a 95% success rate of getting students into their top choice schools, with families securing an average of 75,000 in scholarships per student. She is the author of the bestseller what to Know Before They Go on College Education and she is also a mom. So she's here to both support with expertise and personal experience. Pamela, thank you for being here. I obviously can't wait to have this conversation. So let me start by asking, is my perception way off base? Is this as hard as it seems like it's going to be?
- [04:11]
C
Oh my goodness, Nicole, you were spot on. Even though you haven't gone through it yet, you were spot on. But before I get into that, I just want to say thank you. Thank you. And to all of your listeners to say to them just how lucky they are to have you as a host. I, I appreciate so much what you're doing and the multi dimensionality of the show and the different topics. And so if you haven't listeners already given Nicole a five star rating, please go and do it now because you are just so lucky to have this show. So thank you, Nicole, for all that you do.
- [04:58]
B
You. Oh my gosh, getting ratings and reviews is the hardest part of doing this. So saying that, that means so much to me. Thank you. And of course for your kind words and support, it really does mean a lot. So thank you.
- [05:13]
C
Absolutely. But yeah, you're spot on. And even though I do this work with, you know, countless students each year and I have three of my own, it was the same challenge for me as a mom with letting go. And so much of what we're doing in terms of our work with students from ninth grade into their freshman year of college is we are partnering with moms to help them learn how to let go and to give ownership to their teen. And that can feel really hard because much of what we know about college is from our own experience, which was maybe a couple of decades ago. And so much has changed. And so, yeah, it is tough.
- [06:05]
B
Oh my gosh, so much has changed. I mean, when I went to college, there wasn't even social media, let alone, I mean, it's just wildly different. So I'm actually really glad that you said that is how important it is for, for us to separate our experience from our kids experience, because it is for sure not going to be the same.
- [06:24]
C
Exactly. And you know, I think that as moms, so much of what we bring into the process is our own mindset and thoughts around what our experience was. And so that can often, you know, really shift the experience for, for our teen. And we can't necessarily be there in a way to really support and encourage them if it's all about us in our control of the process and what we want to see as an outcome for them. Because we all, you know, may have a viewpoint around, you know, where we want to see our child go and the things, you know, the vision that we have for them, like, oh, they're going to be X, you know, but that may not be what they want to do at all. And so how do you still encourage them and support them if what they want to do isn't what you had envisioned them doing?
- [07:24]
B
I mean, we could probably end the episode right there and that'd be enough powerful information. I mean, because. Yes. Okay. So Pamela, where would you recommend that we actually start thinking about and talking about college with our teens? I think there is the potential that we could be overthinking or start too soon or, you know, delay too late. What are, what's your advice there?
- [07:50]
C
Ninth grade. Okay, ninth grade. And I know that sometimes that may feel too early, but that's when the process really starts for them. And you don't want them to be in senior year regretful that, you know, they didn't have the GPA in 9th grade or they weren't, you know, involved in something in ninth grade. And so even if it's done, you know, in more of a subtle way, you know, starting that process and starting the conversation as well, I mean, I have some parents who will come around the end of eighth grade. And that's, you know, completely fine because that is, you know, the time when you do need to be thinking about what are the courses going to be through high school. And so I would say ninth grade. And I know it may feel a little early for some of us, but that's really ideal.
- [08:51]
B
Okay, so that makes sense to me. And yet I could see the potential of like turning thinking about it and talking about it into nagging about it and like being all up in our kids face about it. And at that age, my experience having a preteen is she tends to, the more I care, the more she tends to resist. Right. So any tips about how to have this dialogue without putting our stuff all over our kids and without too turning it into a nagging thing?
- [09:29]
C
Absolutely. I think, you know, the first step is, you know, just kind of, you know, starting out with open ended questions as opposed to statements around, you know, what your experience was like and all of that. But really just starting with some questions and being present to really hear what, you know, their thoughts are, what things they are thinking about. Because certainly they're hearing it at school, you know, even if they're not talking about it at home, they're hearing about it at school more than likely. And so starting there can be a really great place and you know, just making sure that they know that you're not judging them in any way. And I would say, you know, for thinking about the timing of when to have the conversation, could be more in a casual setting, like on a walk, you know, as opposed to, okay, let's all sit down at the table and talk about this serious, you know, subject matter, you know, but you know, doing it in more, you know, in a less formal way can really, you know, just kind of help the team with feeling safer and that they can, you know, express their own thoughts about it. Because I know for my younger son, he actually said he didn't want to go to college and it was just like, okay, you do know what I do, right? Is this, you know, a way to battle with me? I don't know. But you know, eventually he did end up going to college, but, you know, that was his thing, you know, through high school, was to say he didn't want to go still, you know, embracing it and letting them know that you're going to support them in the decision, you know, that they eventually make.
- [11:30]
B
Well, and they sure do know how to push our buttons. Right? So really good tip. I think about not making everything so big and so formal, but having the conversations casually while you're doing other things. Okay, so wildly impressive that you have a 95% success rate. So that begs a lot of questions. The first is, what are colleges actually looking for today? So if we're trying to encourage our children in ninth grade and beyond to do the right best things, what should we actually be focused on?
- [12:09]
C
Yeah, I think the first thing is the teen owning the process and really learning how to self advocate. And so it's some of those, you know, softer skills that are really most needed to be successful in the process. The other thing too is, you know, just starting to build, you know, those social skills, you know, how to make friends and interact with adults or teachers that they have at school. And also learning some skills around study habits and organizational skills. So some of those things are foundational. And what they do is they really give students the tools for building their confidence. Because so much of the process is about having confidence, confidence to put yourself out there and to be resilient, even if you're rejected from a school. And so we really start there. And what the key question that we ask parents and ask students is, why do you want to go? And we think about starting with why and every other project we do. But when it comes to college, we oftentimes don't ask that question, but why do you want to go? And for the parent, you know, why do you want your teen to go to college? That actually sets the stage for everything else that unfolds, you know, from their classes, their summer experiences, the activities that they're involved in outside of school. And it also then helps them with thinking about their list as well. And so that's how we really start. Started in terms of helping with that process. And for the colleges, you know, they're really looking for how are you going to contribute when you're. When you're here? And they want to know who you are, you know, so it's really important that you do show up as your best self in every communication you have with them. And it's not about packaging students to be ex. You know, I'm not trying to make sure that every kid is well rounded and that they're doing all of these things and they're doing community service and. No, what is it that this kid enjoys? You know, who. Who are they? And if it's done in that way, I think it really helps them to be authentic through the process and not just doing things for the sake of college, because that's not what it's about.
- [15:03]
A
If you have a locked AT&T phone, we're here with bolt cutters. T Mobile will help pay off your locked phone and give you a new 5G phone for free. All on America's largest 5G network. Visit t mobile.com carrierfreedom Be a virtual prepaid MasterCard in 15 days. Free phone up to 830 via 24 monthly bill credits plus tax and a 10 device connection charge. Qualifying port and trade in service on Go 5G next and credit required. Contact us before canceling entire account to continue bill credits or credit stop and balance on required finance agreements. Do you bill credits and if you pay off devices early.
- [15:36]
B
Okay. I love everything about what you just said and what you do because these are not just about getting kids into college. These are life skills. You mentioned self advocacy, authenticity, confidence, people skills and self awareness. Who am I and what do I think at this stage in my life that I'm here to do? What's my purpose? And obviously, you know, there's still a lot of figuring out to do, but coming from that place is not just a great way to enter college, but a great way to enter all the big milestones and transitions and all of that. So. That's incredible.
- [16:14]
C
Yeah, it really is. And you know, sometimes, you know, you know, when moms come to me, they may want me to say, okay, your kid needs to be doing this activity. And that activity, it's like, no, what is it they want to do? You know, because if they have an excuse for it, that's probably not something they're interested in doing, right? And you know, it's okay if they're a gamer. I don't care if they're a gamer. And I have to tell you this quick question because I this quick story because I get this all the time, Nicole, where, you know, moms are complaining about their kids gaming all the time. I was visiting a college and this professor was mentioning that at the start of every class that he has, he always asked who were the gamers in his, you know, through high school. And this professor taught economics and he said that what he has found out is that for all the students who were gamers, they do better. They, they perform better in his economics course. And so I took that information and ran with it because I had a ninth grader who was a known gamer that his mom just really just hated that. But what we did was we curate, you know, summer program lists for students. And so we recommended to him an economic summer program. And you know something, he's in college now studying economics and finance.
- [17:50]
B
I loved it that story so good. And I feel like there's an Adam Grant. I don't know if he did the research or he just shared the research, but there is some research that shows that kids that play a certain amount of video games a day are actually. They're doing better. They're more. It's not the sort of idea that video games turn kids violent and brain dead has sort of been debunked at this point. Okay, so then the next question I have is around this idea, and I'm going to put in air quotes of the right fit or the right college, because there's one bazillion colleges out there and so many different formats and all that. How do you help people, teens and their parents, determine what are likely to be the right fits for them? What is going to feel like home, you know, because they're choosing a new home, basically.
- [18:47]
C
Yeah, I love that because this is like the main thing that we do and that is we have a, an assessment that we do called the fit assessment. And we are looking at five factors of fit. And it's a real simple exercise so your listeners can actually go, you know, do it along with us as I'm talking through it. But it starts with the teen actually, you know, jotting down how these fit factors apply to them. And the thing about it is they also apply to colleges as well, but we start with the teen. And so the first factor of fit is academic. So what is it they want to learn and how they learn best? The second one is social fit. So what types of things they do to make friends and how easy is it for them to make friends? That's the social piece. The third factor of fit is financial. What does it take for college to be affordable for their family? And maybe that's no loans, maybe that's getting financial aid or merit scholarships. The fourth factor of fit is vocational. So what is it that they're thinking about doing after college? And maybe they don't know yet, that's fine, too. But just jotting that down. And then the fifth factor is cultural fit. So how might that student be different from the majority of students on campus? So this could be a range of, you know, identities, if you will. And even if a student is thinking about going out of state, then they're likely to be in the minority there at a state school or school that's on the other side of the country. And so with those five factors, we lay that on to the colleges as well. And we also do a personality assessment. And so that's to give students, students an initial, you know, list of colleges to research. And after they research those colleges, they then share, you know, kind of what, what they like, what they didn't like. And that helps us then to build the list. And the thing that I say all the time, Nicole, is there are a number of colleges that are a good fit, fit for you. There's no such thing as there's only one college for you, because if you want to be stressed out, just focus on one college.
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B
Right.
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C
But I feel like they will miss so much because I have students who come to me saying, oh, I only want to go to this one college, no other college. And so it's like, no, we're going to look at other colleges because there are some great colleges out there for you, and I don't want you to miss any opportunity. And so that's, you know, how we go about it. And it's really, you know, consistently sending that message that there are a range of colleges that are a great fit for you. And when they research the colleges in the, you know, using the guide sheet that we give them, they do find some hidden gems that they would have never considered before.
- [22:10]
B
Yeah.
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C
And it's just like, wow.
- [22:12]
B
I mean, again, I go back to your teaching life skills because this is a teaching them how to make good decisions. The five factors could be applied to jobs, to marriages. I mean, just, you know, there's so much in there that is really powerful. And I do think you're right. Oftentimes people will hone in on the one, whether it's because it's like a legacy school or because they're a fan of a sports team or what have you. But I think it could swing the other direction too, where people might, you know, apply to 100 schools and want to do 1 million campus visits. Do you give people kind of a range in which to fall in when it comes to actual going and visiting campuses and applying?
- [22:59]
C
You know, I say visit after you've researched it, and that usually narrows it down right then and there.
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B
Okay.
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C
Because if once they research it, they may they are going to find some things that they like and some things that they don't like. And that's been a way to really narrow it as far as their visits. And what I say, you know, in the visits, you know, usually families will spend about a week doing visits and no more than two a day because anything beyond that is going to be too tiring to do.
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B
Right.
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C
And for the number of colleges that they apply to, the average is around 8 to 12. And what we're doing is we're working with them to have by the end of junior year, a list of 12 to 15 colleges on their list. And so that I've found to be reasonable. And it also ensures that they're not missing any great gems for them, that they have a thorough process of researching and really getting to know them. So it's not about just going to look at the pictures online or something like that.
- [24:23]
B
It all looks good online, right?
- [24:25]
C
Yeah, it all looks good online and speaking, especially the brochures. So, yeah. Okay, so that's usually the number.
- [24:34]
B
That's a really good guide. Super helpful. I have two more questions, one about scholarships and one about rejection. So let's talk about scholarships first. Any tips or advice, things that we should just know as it relates to scholarships or financial aid or basically how to not go broke in sending your kid to college?
- [25:01]
C
Yes, absolutely. So one thing I'll say is that you can apply for outside scholarships as early as age 13. And that's something that, you know, oftentimes parents don't know because they're thinking, oh, I'm going to apply for scholarships in senior year. And it's like, no, you don't have to wait. You know, there are a lot of outside scholarships outside out there. Now, the biggest dollars come directly from the colleges. And the way that we're able to do that is through those fit factors. And so having a list of colleges that are a great fit can make all the difference in terms of the scholarship dollars that are received. So smart. So that's what we found over the years, and that's worked well.
- [25:54]
B
Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. It's, you know, when you match up a fit, you. You increase the likelihood that this college is going to invest in this student in some way. Yeah, I never thought about it that way, and it makes perfect sense. And I love that you said starting earlier, because I would have never thought that either. Okay. Rejection, both teaching the skill to our teens, as you mentioned, as part of the process. But also, I think parents often feel their kids rejection even more than the kids do. We do so, and we get very, you know, dramatic about it. Let's call it that.
- [26:36]
C
Me too.
- [26:37]
B
What advice do you give teens and parents about dealing with the inevitable rejection that's bound to come when they apply to 8 to 12 colleges?
- [26:48]
C
Wow. It's planting those seeds all along the way, Nicole, in terms of the confidence in their list, the confidence in their application, and the writing that they do because so many students have Writing anxiety. So they're already feeling like, I can't write a good essay, you know, but we are definitely saying, yes, you can do it, you can do it. And the fact that they have already invested so much time, energy into the whole vetting of the colleges and then applying, students know and have a good sense that, you know, this is still a great fit for them. And so I always say to them, if you have eight colleges on your list, they should all be your number one, such that if you don't get into any other college but this one college out of this eight, you'll be excited to go there. And so that's how we even start to position it and plant those seeds in terms of later rejection and not getting in. And I think you're right that a lot of times, you know, the students are just excited that they did get in somewhere. And we as parents may be feeling like, why didn't they get into college? You know? And it's just like, because it wasn't meant to be.
- [28:28]
B
Right? Like, right, right.
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C
It wasn't. And it still, still, they have options, and they have options that they're excited for. And so we really do want, you know, students to be applying to those colleges that they care about. It's not about just applying to easy colleges that you just wouldn't even want to go to anyway, because we have that sometimes as well, where students are like, no, I don't want to apply if I'm going to get rejected. And I'm just like, this college is a good fit for you, and you don't know until you apply, so don't count yourself out now. Let's do that. Let's wait until the spring and see what happens.
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B
Right. I think you make an excellent point. I have this belief that options and choices bring us happiness. And I think what I'm hearing what you're saying is because they have so many options that are a good fit that they would be excited about that, it actually isn't all that heartbreaking if one says no, because it's like, all right, well, there's seven to 11 others, like, and any one of them that I would be excited about. And then our opportunity as parents is to kind of take that cue from our kids and not get too caught up in the one. And, like, it really is.
- [29:54]
C
Yeah, it really is. And, you know, sometimes, you know, the toughest conversations that I have is with the mom talking about, you know, why, you know, a college really doesn't make sense, because sometimes it's just, you Know the students applying because their mom wants them apply, but not because this college makes sense for them in any way. And so that's a tough conversation to have, I bet. Yeah, it really is.
- [30:24]
B
Pamela, I don't know how it's possible that we're out of time. I still. I could talk to you all day. I want to make sure that people can find and follow you. So it's Dr. Pamela Ellis on LinkedIn and Instagram. The website is Compass College. Advisory. Com. We'll put that and all the links in show notes. Pamela, you had mentioned that you might have a gift for our guests. I'm going to.
- [30:45]
C
I sure do have a gift for amazing guests. What I have is the College Confidence Blueprint. And what it is, Nicole, is a roadmap and also a communication guide, because one of the biggest stumbling blocks, if you will, is oftentimes communicating with our teen. And so it has a guide on how to talk with your teen so that they listen. And you don't have to spend as much time nagging because you'll have a roadmap for each grade year of really what matters for that grade year. And they can send the keyword Blueprint25 to my LinkedIn at Dr. Pamela Ellis or even on IG at Dr. Pamela Ellis. So D R P A M E L A E L L I S.
- [31:45]
B
Okay, so again, we'll put the LinkedIn and Instagram account links in show notes, and the code is Blueprint25. And that will get you your free blueprint. And on behalf of all of our listeners, thank you. We love free stuff, and this is an epically good one. So thank you so much, and thank you for your amazing work and time today.
- [32:05]
C
Thank you, Nicole. And all the best to you and your listeners.
- [32:09]
B
Thank you. Okay, there you have it, friend. Sending our kids off to college is one of those moments that sneaks up on us, leaving us feeling both proud and panicked. It's messy, it's beautiful, it's challenging, and it's exactly what we signed up for as parents. So here's my reminder to you and to me. They're going to be okay, and so are we. Whether they soar smoothly or stumble a bit along the way. Our job isn't to control the flight. It's to make sure they know they've got a place to land if and when they need it. We've given them roots. Now we get to trust them with those wings. So take a deep breath. Hug them tight. Cry if you need to. Maybe not for an hour in the dorm room hallway. But, hey, no judgment if you do. And remember that you're not just raising a kid, you're raising a future adult who will make their mark and find their purpose thanks to everything, all the love that you've poured into them. We raise them to leave and stand steady and ready here for those moments they choose to come home to us, because that is woman's work.