← This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
Why Playing It Safe Is Holding You Back (and How to Fail Forward Instead) with Lorraine H. Marchand | 389
00:38:06
Fear of failure keeps women stuck — personally and professionally. In this episode, innovation expert Lorraine Marchand explains how to reframe fear, fail forward, and create sustainable growth by learning faster instead of playing it safe.
Loading summary
Transcript39 lines
- [00:01]
Nicole Khalil
Lifelock. How can I help?
- [00:02]
Caller/Listener
The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't.
- [00:05]
Lifelock Advertiser
One in four tax paying Americans has paid the price of identity fraud.
- [00:08]
Caller/Listener
What do I do?
- [00:09]
Lorraine Marchand
My refund though.
- [00:10]
Nicole Khalil
I'm freaking out. Don't worry, I can fix this.
- [00:12]
Lifelock Advertiser
Lifelock fixes identity theft guaranteed and gets your money back with up to $3 million in coverage.
- [00:18]
Caller/Listener
I'm so relieved.
- [00:19]
Nicole Khalil
No problem. I'll be with you every step of the way.
- [00:21]
Lifelock Advertiser
One in four was a fraud paying American. Not anymore. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply this episode
- [00:32]
State Farm Advertiser
is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast Smart move. Being financially savvy Smart move. Another smart move having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility var by state.
- [01:00]
Nicole Khalil
If you love the show, the best way to keep it going is simple. Share it, rate it, and support the sponsors who support us. I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast, where together we're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. From boardrooms to studios, kitchens to coding dens, we meet you in all the places where ambition, responsibility, impact and real life collide. Because I believe that most of us have dreams and hopes that we don't allow ourselves to pursue ideas and intuition that just won't leave us alone. Callings, yearnings, nudges, whatever you want to call them, I bet you have them. And right alongside those ideas and dreams and a very convincing, very well rehearsed list of reasons why we're not doing them. Because of X, because of Y, and definitely because of Z. Now, I'm not saying it's all excuses. Some constraints are real and not everything is possible all of the time, no matter what that guru out there is trying to tell you, right? But friend, I'm going to be straight with you. Much more is possible than we believe because we buy into our limitations and faster than our possibilities. We're too quick to see all the obstacles, too easy to buckle under all the pressure, too worried about all the things that could go wrong. And my guest Most of the reasons we think that we can't, most of the explanations for why we haven't or why we don't are stories that we've bought into. And most of those stories trace back to fear. Fear of failing, fear of getting it wrong, fear of what happens if we try and it doesn't work. And God forbid somebody sees it. Now, I know this personally and intimately. To say I have lots of head trash about failure would be a complete understatement. I literally have had to practice making failure part of my strategy. And looking back over the last five years in my business, I can tell you with absolute certainty that there have been more failures than successes. Not marginally more, dramatically more. And instead of pulling back, I'm doubling down. Right now we're testing three new things publicly, and the strategy isn't expecting all of them to work. It's hoping that one of them will. We just don't know which one yet. Now, this episode isn't a called chase every idea the second it pops into your head. But it is a call to rethink our relationship with fear and failure. Because growth doesn't happen without fear either. And playing it safe has a cost that we don't talk about nearly enough. So joining us is Lorraine Marchand, an acclaimed consultant, author, and educator on innovation, and the author of the new book no Fear, no Five Principles for Sustaining Growth Through Innovation. She has co founded several startups, held leadership roles at Bristol Myers Squibb, Covance, LabCorp and IBM, advised organizations including Johnson Johnson and Hewlett Packard, and serves on multiple boards and teaches at Wharton School. And we are really glad to have you here among all these things that you're doing. So, Lorraine, after everything that you've studied and experienced, what do most people misunderstand about fear and failure and how they actually show up when we're trying to grow or create something new? I know that was a long first question, but hopefully that it makes sense.
- [04:34]
Lorraine Marchand
Oh, well, thank you, Nicole. It's really a pleasure to be here. And obviously this is my favorite topic. And I. I'm probably sure that I could outpace you in terms of number of failing experiences that I've had. So we should have a competition and count. But that idea of reframing failure is learning you talked about. Pivoting in your opening is so important because if we set the experiment up with a learning objective, then we really take a lot of pressure off of ourselves to determine whether we had an end result that was a failure as opposed to we accomplished learning something and we moved it forward. But I would love to share a story with you that I hope will resonate with your listeners. Because the first time that I innovated something, I was 13 years old. And the story is that my dad was an inventor. He was an entrepreneur. But most importantly, he had no fear of failure. And he wanted to make sure that he imbued that as a culture in our family. So one summer, he took my brother and I to the Hot Jobs cafeteria three mornings in a row. And our job, as we sat there eating our scrambled eggs and drinking orange juice, was to figure out what was slowing down table turnover. Now, initially we said, well, they need to hire more staff. He said, no, we have to define the problem. He was serious. And he pulled out stopwatches, graph paper, three colored pens, and gave us permission to interview the waitresses and the busboys. So after three days of research, guided by my dad, we determined that what was slowing down table turnover were sugar packets. Because people were opening them, the granules were going on the floor, and the table and our stopwatches proved how much time was being spent by the busboys cleaning up those sugar packets. Now, my dad had a rule of three, and that meant that for every problem, he identified, because he would identify a lot of problems every day around the house, in the yard, daily living. And our job was to come up with at least three solutions. So we did that. We took one to prototype. We showed it to the manager. She got super excited about it, and we developed a product called the Sugar Cube. Sat on the table, it held the sugar packets. It held the package after it had been emptied. And to make sure that it had additional value, the four sides displayed advertising. It was not only in the hot shops at her store, but it started to spread throughout the Baltimore Washington area. And I love to close this story by saying that Hot Chops was the foundation to what evolved into Marriott. So my Sugar Cube was actually in Marriott before Marriott was actually a name. Now, what did I learn? I learned that I was problem solving. I was having fun. My dad made it safe to experiment. But when I got moved on in my career, which has been dominated by pharmaceuticals and life sciences and you name some of the companies that I've worked for, what did I learn? Really fast. Executives were not my dad, and offices were not the diner. And so I just, like all of us, have had to learn to develop that muscle, to understand failure, to not be afraid of it, to reframe it, as learning not to let it get me down, but to get energy from it and confidence from it and have it catapult me forward. So I think that parents should not underestimate the important role that they play in terms of encouraging problem solving and instilling that fearlessness about failure very on in their children. I encourage everybody, but women in particular, think back at what your dreams were because you talked about this at the top of the hour. What were your dreams when you were 12 and 13 and there were no boundaries? Because what happens is after we're 12 and 13 and we have these big dreams and then we get into junior high and high school, that's when all of the fear of failure, the obligations, the responsibilities, the criticisms, that's where they all start to mount and they start to shut us down. So a lot of times it's a really healthy, reflective exercise just to think about who you were when you were 12 or 13 and get back to that girl. That's one thing I recommend that people do.
- [09:20]
Nicole Khalil
I'm a huge fan of that recommendation. And okay, so lots of things were going through my head as you shared your story, but I'd say the two biggest ones were first, thank you for that sort of reinforcement. It's funny, I said this in my introduction. We're testing three things right now. And so this rule of three that you mentioned, having three solutions, I was like, oh, thank God. Because I mean, we really have no idea what we're doing, but we are doing these three potential solutions, hoping that one of them works. But even more than that, the thought. And you addressed this, but I want to dive a little deeper into it. The thought kept popping up. Most of us didn't have that experience, right? Most of us, our dads didn't, weren't inventors or didn't teach us that. And I think a lot of us, even if we did work in environments or with people or in cultures where we say we want innovation and collaboration and yet mistakes are emphasized or, you know, I guess, how do we begin to bring that spirit? How do we begin to test and allow for failure and learning in environments where it's maybe not part of the culture, it doesn't feel supported?
- [10:37]
Lorraine Marchand
So that's a great question. Comes up all the time. And actually one of the reasons that I wrote the book no Fear, no Failure is because I was out doing workshops and keynotes around the first book, the Innovation Mindset, which gives you eight steps for bringing your idea to the market. And I was at a pretty well known pharmaceutical company, Novartis, and they said to me, you know what, Lorraine? We're not the problem. We're pretty innovative. On a scale of 1 to 10, when I take your Diagnostic. I probably give myself a 9. I'm creative, I like to do new things. I'm a risk taker. My problem is this organization, it is a huge behemoth. We have more attorneys than drug developers here and around every corner is the big word. No, we don't do it that way. We've never done it that way. We tried this and it didn't work. What can I do? And so this is really a very common issue for individuals trapped in mid management roles or even leadership roles that can't move the whole organization. So what I like to say is what you can control is yourself. And some of the small ways that you can start to emulate reframing that failure into learning. I like to use the mantra, try, fail, learn. So how can you do that in the work environment with your team? When I was at IBM, a big behemoth, I was not going to turn around the Titanic. But what I started to do with my teams, I introduced a concept that I called Fail Free Friday, every Friday I brought my senior team together and the sole purpose of the meeting was to talk about what wasn't working. No bragging, no pushing things under the carpet, no making it seem like everything was okay. Let's really get under what's not working. Well, let's discuss it together. We don't even have to fix it. In fact, let's not try to fix it. Let's just understand it and make it okay to share. And once we started to do that, the people on my team, it made it okay for them to have those kinds of conversations with their team to show that we were going to experiment, that we were going to make failures safe. And so you can do very small things like that to get started, to at least change the culture with your team and to show that you want to create a safe environment for people to try where they're not going to be punished if it doesn't go well. And one final thing I'll add, as you mentioned, I teach at Wharton and a lot of students will come to me for advice in the interview process and they're interviewing with big banks and top employers. And I always say, when they get to that point and they say, well, what questions do you have? For me, that's not a throwaway, that is not a time just to say something obsequious back to them. You need to ask them what happened to the last person who failed here? What happened to the last project that didn't go as planned here? What is it like when things don't go well in this company, don't ask them what the culture is because you're going to get some kind of, you know, sweet chocolate topping on the ice cream kind of answer. You don't want that. Yeah, ask them a question that is going to make them really think and give you a real answer. And if being in an innovative culture, an experimental culture where fear of failure is, is abolished and it's okay, because you know that's going to be necessary for you to learn and grow, then that's an important data point that you need about that company. So be bold and ask those types of questions and make sure that you're deliberating the kind of environment you want to be in. Because you can make a choice. You have a choice to make. You can go into a big default, fear fearing failure environment, or you can go in one that wants to be a little bit more edgy, where you have an opportunity to change things. So think about that.
- [14:40]
Nicole Khalil
Okay, great advice. And I think that there are these external culture leadership dynamics, the people you work with, but there are also internal barriers. And I read an article and I can't remember when or who, but the crux of what I took away was that oftentimes when men fail, they say I failed at something. When women fail, they internalize it. I am a failure. And I think we as women have been socialized, generally speaking, to avoid failure a little bit more, to strive for perfection in all aspects of our lives. So any tips or tricks or advice on managing the internal part of fear and failure?
- [15:27]
Lorraine Marchand
Yes. Well, that's also another good question. I remember that there was a journalist and she wrote an article once about the difference between men and women and innovation and confidence. And she said, you know, the man goes in the mirror, looks at himself in the mirror and says, hmm, I think I'm gonna run for political office today. The woman looks in the mirror and says, wow, These are like 10 reasons why I'm not ready at all to run for political office today. So definitely we're wired very differently. I think that one of the most important things that women can do is to surround themselves with other confident women, you know, other professional women, accountability partners, that when they start to go down that path of the inside head speak or the head trash, you know, the way you described it, you know, a friend, a confidant, who's going to say, okay, you're doing it again, stop. You know, And I think, you know, because women are so social and very much, you know, like to work together, I think it's really important that women have an accountability partner, a buddy who can help them out of that kind of speak. I think it's also important that you have a direct manager that is going to be encouraging, that's going to develop you, that isn't going to be someone who's critical. Again, I've been fortunate in my career where I've had great managers, including male managers. But I've also had managers that I realized were not going to be creating an environment for me to be my best. And so those were oftentimes organizations I didn't really hang around too much and I found other people in the, in the company or the organization that I could relate to, use as a mentor or coach because I saw that I wasn't going to get what I needed from that manager. So I think those really important relationships are one of the best things that women can do. I also like to journal. I mean, obviously I'm a writer, but that can be whatever the proverbial form of expression is to you. But you know, when you feel something like that coming on, sit down, really think about it, maybe jot some notes to yourself. Is something in the environment causing you to feel that way? Is somebody causing you to feel that way? Are you just having a bad day like do try to understand and reflect to find out what it is that's causing that. And sometimes you can see patterns. Sometimes it is an office environment, people that you're around. And if you can start to pick those things up, you need to start avoiding that.
- [18:01]
Nicole Khalil
Here's my hot take. What if we all gave the finger to resolutions about losing weight and focused instead on gaining pleasure? This year, instead of another resolution that quietly dies by mid January, more women are choosing something different. They're having better. Sexual Beducated is an online platform with over 150 courses on sex and intimacy designed to help women explore pleasure in a safe private space at their own pace, from the comfort of their own bedroom. And you don't have to guess where to start. You take their quiz and get a personalized roadmap to sexual happiness. No pressure, no performance, no shame. So if you're done with resolutions that make you feel smaller, try one that actually expands your life and relationships. Click the link in show notes to kick off your journey by taking the quiz. Get your personalized roadmap to sexual happiness with Beducated. No one tells you that when you start a business, you suddenly have 47 new job descriptions. CEO, Marketing Department, Tech support, Logistics manager, therapist. Mostly to yourself. When I started my business. Every day came with a new decision that I had absolutely no idea how to make. And that's why having the right tools matters. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US. It handles the heavy lifting from inventory to payments to analytics all in one place. So no need to duct tape together five different platforms. You can build your store with beautiful templates, use built in AI tools to streamline product pages and run email and social campaigns to get the word out. And if you get stuck, they have award winning 24. 7 customer support. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify and start hearing. Go ahead and sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com tiww Again, that's shopify.com tiww Stitch Fix shopping is hard. Let's talk about it. I don't have time to shop, so
- [20:09]
Lorraine Marchand
I buy all my clothes, where I buy my seafood.
- [20:11]
Lifelock Advertiser
I just want someone to tell me
- [20:12]
Lorraine Marchand
what shirt goes with what pants. I just want jeans that fit.
- [20:16]
Nicole Khalil
Stitch Fix makes shopping easy. Just show your size, style and budget and your stylist sends personalized looks right to your door. No subscription required, plus free shipping and returns.
- [20:26]
Lifelock Advertiser
Man, that was easy. I look good.
- [20:29]
Nicole Khalil
Stitch Fix Online Personal Styling for everyone. Take your style quiz today@stitch fix.com okay, again, great advice. I had one thing that I do that I wanted to share and get your feedback on. I force myself to play what I call Angel's advocate. It's the opposite of devil's advocate, right? Because my brain can think of all the worst case scenarios, all the reasons it won't work, or your example standing in front of the mirror, 10 reasons why I'm not ready. And every time my brain does that, I force myself to do the you know what would be devil's advocate. But I'm already being the devil. So Angel's advocate. If I can come up with 10 reasons why I'm not ready, I need to come up with 10 reasons why I am ready. Or if I ask myself what's the worst that can happen? I force myself to ask what's the best that could happen? Just so I have two sets of similar data points, right? Like I'm making up all the worst that could happen, I might as well make up all the best that could happen. Just so I have both ends of the spectrum. Any thoughts on that?
- [21:29]
Lorraine Marchand
I love that. And I think that I think that's a very healthy exercise. And I think that probably what it does is helps you disabuse yourself of that long laundry list of negatives that you came up with and see that, well, maybe they're really not so bad after all. There's really not as much risk in this as I thought. And you know, hopefully so often the positives that you think about yourself, the angel side on that shoulder, you know, can outweigh it. And then I think you just need a healthy dose of. Let's try it. Like you said, what's the worst that can happen? All right, what's the worst that can happen here? You know, maybe I'm gonna, I'm gonna feel embarrassed. Well, that'll disappear after a bit of time and, and you just have to be bold and, and make that move and give it a try. And then, you know, again, I think if you define the experiment with a learning objective, I think that's really important to do. Say, you know, the reason I'm doing this is not for the binary positive, negative, does it work out or not? But I'm doing this because it's a learning experience. And these are the three learning objectives that I want to design into this. And so if I learn those three things, it's going to be a successful experience and I'm going to take that knowledge and understanding and it's going to allow me to continue to move forward and to grow. And so, you know, maybe look at the things that you're doing more on a continuum as opposed to just a binary stop. Start. Yes. No failure. Success.
- [22:59]
Nicole Khalil
Yeah, I think too like this learning philosophy around it is so important because the worst case scenario isn't being embarrassed or failing, it's being stuck. In my opinion. Like, when I think of what's the worst that can happen if I do this? I can come up with a lot of things. But asking what's the worst that can happen if I don't do this? It's, I'll be stuck, I'll be bored, I'll think less of myself. I'll be stuck in fear. Like, those are the worst case scenarios for me. So I want to talk about the title of your book, no Fear, no Failure. When I first saw it, I had a little bit of a internal, like, I don't think that it's possible to live without fear. It's generally not possible to do anything worth doing without failure. And I know that that's not what you mean. You're not telling us not to be afraid or not to fail. So what does no fear, no failure mean?
- [23:54]
Lorraine Marchand
Yes, really good point again, Nicole. So, you know, on the continuum, I think that, you know, as you point out, it can be that a fear of failure can stop us short of trying to tackle so many of the things that we are dreaming about that we want to try. And so along that continuum, I'd like for people to move that fear of failure further down the continuum. You know, certainly fear, fear is a healthy response when there's truly risk. But as you point out, so much of what we're facing on the day to day decisions that we're making about taking an idea forward, speaking up in a meeting, these are really very low risk things. And so we want to build that muscle of being more confident, more willing to take risks, and not letting fear of failure in that kind of small way hold us back, similar to what you were talking about with the devil's advocate and the angel's advocate. And so often I think this fear is more around strategy, around decision making, around trying something new. So clearly, if a failure is at an operating level, a company isn't delivering on its service promise or something's breaking down, you know, that's very different. Those failures have to be dealt with. But at a conceptual level, a strategic level, the way you think about yourself and, and the decisions that you make about what you're gonna try or you're not gonna try. I really encourage folks to get out there, be bold, be courageous, and not let their own internal fear of failure, that voice in the head, be what slows them down or somebody else's disbelief. So it's along a continuum.
- [25:36]
Nicole Khalil
And I just keep going back to the offering of reframing failure as learning. We are failing so much less than we think we are, and we're learning so much more than I think we give credit to. And that's just such an important reframe. Okay, the subtitle of your book is Five Principles for Sustaining Growth through Innovation. Can you share with us those five principles and maybe a little bit on each? Do we have time for that?
- [26:06]
Lorraine Marchand
Yeah, absolutely. So everything has to start with culture. And I like to say that this idea of experimentation is critical to encourage in the culture. Microsoft Satya Nadella says go from a know it all mentality to a learn it all mentality. That's what they try to inculcate at Microsoft. Not that you know it all, because we see a lot of that, but, you know, try to focus on learn it all. Jeff Bezos, in a 2019 letter to shareholders, said, if the size of your failure isn't growing the size of prevention isn't going to be increasing at a rate that can actually move the needle. So people like Microsoft, Satya Nadella and Jeff Bezos have been really advocates of creating a culture where experimentation and learning replaces that fear of failure. Number two, in our business setting or whatever we're doing, it has to be customer first. And as much as we talk about that, I see so many organizations that practice inside out thinking instead of outside in think. They go in that echo chamber and they try to develop solutions and new products that they think are going to solve somebody's need, but they actually don't. So in order to create this fear of failure, we have to have honest conversations externally with our customers and other stakeholders to understand what it is they want and to be actually solving their problem. So that takes us out of our own head. Number three, really important is this concept of chance. And it was Sergey Brin of Google who fashioned what we now know as the golden ratio. And what he meant was that the 10% that they were investing in brand new net new blue ocean, white space innovation five years later was responsible for 70% of new growth. So so many companies don't want to take that risk of assigning some of the budget to invest in something new. They only invest in core. And that same premise is really important for your people. It's really important that you give the talent the latitude, as we're talking here today, to experiment. Not to worry about fear of failure, not to worry about not getting a bonus, losing their job. It's gotta be safe to experiment. Collaboration is the fourth C. And I like to chuckle because when I was at Bristol Myers Squibb, collaboration was on our behavioral list was like how well you got along with your colleagues. Well, fortunately, collaboration is now a strategic imperative. And what that means is that everybody in the business, stakeholders in service, product, accounting, legal, everybody's coming together, aligned around strategic objectives, aligned around the customer, all working together to grow the business and to make the customer more satisfied. And so it means all these lines of services and departments and functions all integrating and collaborating toward a common goal, not operating in silos, super important. And then the fifth one is change. Because underpinning all of this is changing your behaviors. I mean, somebody's going to have to make a conscious choice tomorrow to have the angel discussion with herself. That's not going to be a natural thing to do right until you start to practice it. But in an organizational setting, it's really important to help people prioritize so they can make room for the New thing, the new way of behaving. And so I like to say help people delete something first. You can't just keep piling things on your list of to do's and expect to prioritize it. So check your list out on a regular basis, remove some of those things that aren't top priorities, insert that new thing and make sure that you give room and space for that new thing. And also, just in the change process, I'll usually start a new initiative by telling my team what's not changing first. Because so often we're not making wholesale transformative change at a company. We're changing a few things and it allows people to stay grounded in what they know and understand and really work toward the pieces that are changing if they can stay grounded in the reality of what they know what while they get used to what's changing. So Those are the five Cs, the culture, the customer first, collaboration and chance and then the change.
- [30:45]
Nicole Khalil
Okay, so that was all incredible. And on behalf of every woman I know, thank you for reiterating that we should eliminate as we're adding or testing or whatever. I often feel like there isn't a problem we try to. Don't try to solve by saying do more. Everything feels additive all the time. And I, I just think it's so important, important that we look at what we can take off our plate when we look at what we're going to take on or try or test or what have you. Okay, I want to make sure I ask my last question. And that's around this concept of failing forward. We hear it a lot and I think it's not just a good tagline. I think there's really something to it. Can you tell us or maybe give an example of what this looks like? What does this mean? How do we begin to practice this in our day to day lives both at work and with whatever dream or wish or desire might be on our hearts.
- [31:42]
Lorraine Marchand
Yeah, well, that's a great question too. And this idea of failing forward or intelligent failure is really thinking carefully about what it is you're taking on, what it is you need to learn. If you do fail again, what is that critical learning objective that you're going to take away from it and then designing small experiments that allow you to test things and learn from them. So for example, I founded a diagnostic company at a certain stage in my career and I made a lot of mistakes. We've talked about making a lot of mistakes. But what I tried to do is as I made a mistake, I I took the time to think about what I learned, who I met, what I was going to do differently, and made a commitment that I was going to learn and try to change from it. So they can be really small things that you try to take on, or they can be larger things, but just make yourself a student again. If you're reframing it as learning, then just thinking very deliberately, what do I want to learn from this small test case, and what am I going to take from forward that's going to make me better at my job, better at what I'm doing? So for yourselves, you have to kind of think about what that experiment might look like. But once you become more aware of it and you frame it as learning, you'll see opportunities to test the waters and figure out what you want to gain from that.
- [33:11]
Nicole Khalil
I said that was going to be my last question, but I lied. This kept coming up in my mind. Any tips or advice for the person who's like, okay, great, I have my learning strategy, but the feeling or the fear that keeps popping up is people knowing and seeing that I've failed you. Like, I have made many mistakes and failed many times, and I'm sure some of that was very public. Any way to move past or lessen the worry and concern about other people's opinions?
- [33:45]
Lorraine Marchand
Well, yeah, you get at something very important. So, you know, as human beings, we tend to focus more on not wanting to be wrong than being meaningfully right. But again, if we reframe things and we say, what I want to be is meaningfully right in a very informed way, where I've tested the waters and I'm moving things forward, first of all, just from a mindset, we need to replace that with the fear of being wrong. So let me be right. And in the spirit of being right, I'm going to have to test things, and some of my hypotheses may be wrong. And I think the other thing is to try to again, verbalize this as much as possible. You know, let friends or colleagues know that we're taking this chance. We don't know if it's going to work out. And then people will usually rally around you and say, you know, it's okay, it didn't work out the way you planned, but you tried, so don't put it under the carpet the way you're feeling. I would say focus on being meaningfully right and design experiments that will make you more informed so that you can not worry about being wrong. And number two, if you make a declaration that you're Going to try something, share it with someone that you trust so that you have a little bit of a cheerleader. And all of this takes practice. Nothing is going to happen overnight. So every day just try in some small way to take a risk. Like Eleanor Roosevelt said, every day do something that scares you. It's really that, you know, that basic. Every day, just make that commitment to try something new, not be worried about the idea of being wrong.
- [35:28]
Nicole Khalil
Yeah. And you said this earlier, surrounding yourself with confident people, good mentors, people who support you in your growing and your. And your learning. And I just think when we do all the things that you mentioned, practice let people know that we're testing something out, that it might not work. All of these things, the right people, the confident people, the mentors, the supporters are going to rally around you. And the people with their strong opinions or judgments or like, who try to embarrass you. That is the clearest indication that they can give you that they are the wrong people. These are not the people who should be in your growth and learning journey. Personal opinion, but it's worked for me so far. I kind of like when people reveal themselves in that way.
- [36:16]
Lorraine Marchand
Well, I agree with you on that, Nicole. And I think that's one advantage of getting a little bit older is that you realize that who you surround yourself is everything. And it's really great when you can get to a point in your career when you're a pretty good judge of people and you can surround yourself with positive people, collaborators, people that, you know, have a good mindset are going to help to move you forward. And you stay away from those who are toxic, have their own agenda. I mean, you know, we can all define the list of people that are not good and healthy for us. And we all have a decision to make. And so just make that decision to surround yourself with those people that are lifting you up. And again, if you look back at your proverbial journal and find out that every time you're in a meeting with this person, you just kind of come out feeling down. You don't really feel like voicing your opinion at the table. You, you know, pay attention to that. There can be negative vibes that are pulling you down, and you need to separate yourself from that and be around positive vibes.
- [37:17]
Nicole Khalil
Amen. All right, Lorraine, thank you. This has been an incredible conversation listener, as always. We are going to put every way to find and follow Lorraine in show notes. But let me remind you to go get the book, no Fear, no Failure available wherever it is. You get books but prioritize your local bookstore. Let's keep them in business. And Lorraine's website is LorraineMarshon. Com. Again, we'll put it all in show notes Lorraine. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [37:43]
Lorraine Marchand
Oh, thank you, Nicole. And I hope that all of your listeners have a fabulous day.
- [37:48]
Nicole Khalil
Me too. All right, friend, I'm going to leave you with this encouragement from Lorraine. Make, try, fail. Learn your personal mantra. Embrace it, encourage it. And maybe you'll end up changing the world. Or at least your world. Not because failure is fun, but because growth doesn't happen without it. And playing it safe has a cost. So go chase dreams, test ideas. Follow deep desire because more of you isn't reckless. It's required. And that is woman's work.
- [38:25]
Caller/Listener
What do you do when your toddler melts down or your teen shuts down? I want to introduce you to the Mindful Mama podcast. I'm Hunter Clark Fields, author of Raising Good Humans and your host for the past 10 years. I used to be a yelling, overwhelmed mom until I found mindfulness and practical parenting tools that changed everything. Each week I bring you honest conversations and expert advice to help you regulate your emotions, manage your kids behavior with compassion, and break the cycle of reactive parenting. Whether you're raising toddlers or teens, you'll find real strategies for conscious parenting. Screen time Aging Listen to the Mindful Mama podcast wherever you get your podcasts because you can raise kind, confident kids without losing your cool.