← This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
Women, Addiction and Recovery with Patti Clark | 324
00:37:49
This powerful episode explores how addiction uniquely affects women, why traditional recovery models don’t always work, and how purpose and connection are essential to long-term healing—with honest insight from author and recovery advocate Patti Clark.
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- [00:01]
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- [01:09]
Nicole Kahlil
I am Nicole Kahlil, and in this episode of this Is Woman's Work, we're going to talk about addiction and recovery. Two words that often come with heavy judgment, shame, and a whole lot of misunderstanding, regardless of gender. But as is often the case, our gender impacts our experience, so recovery and addiction are likely different or nuanced for women, maybe harder in some ways or easier in others. I have to imagine that living in a society where we're expected to hold it all together, keep it all balanced, take care of everyone else, and, oh, by the way, look good in the process, that the path to recovery could feel lonely, confusing, and full of obstacles for women. And given that women face societal pressures as caregivers, partners or professionals, I'm guessing the fear of being judged or labeled makes the process of seeking help even harder. And once recovery starts, staying sober isn't the only challenge. Navigating the emotional and mental toll of healing while also managing all the roles we juggle and all the other people we care for could make the journey feel almost impossible. At least that's what I'm thinking. All from a place of empathy and trying to put myself in someone else's shoes. But I don't know, because I'm not an expert or someone who has personally experienced addiction and recovery, at least not in the traditional sense that we often think of, like recovery programs, rehab facilities, or chronic care management. But I believe the journey of recovery is one we must talk about more openly. Because women are experiencing addiction and because there are different differences and how women experience it. And ultimately, recovery is always a brave and ongoing choice, and it's necessary to talk about so today we're diving into this complex and incredibly important topic. How addiction is different for women, what it really takes to be in recovery, and how we can best support each other. And because I can't lead a conversation on this topic, I've invited a guest who can. Patti Clark has been described as a cross between Elizabeth Gilbert and Julia Cameron, which is great compliments as far as I'm concerned. And is an award winning Author of this Way 7 Tools for Unleashing your creative self and transforming your life, as well as an accomplished speaker and workshop leader. Her own experience as a middle aged woman in recovery is deeply reflected in her new book, Recovery Road trip, Finding purpose and connection on the journey home. Patti, thank you for being our guest. And I'd love to start by asking, is there anything that I said in my opening that you'd like to challenge or expand on?
- [03:52]
Patti Clark
The opening and the introduction were awesome. So no, I won't challenge you on anything. It was spot on. It's accurate and I'm really looking forward to diving in.
- [04:05]
Nicole Kahlil
Okay, great. And I feel like a lot of times when we talk or when I talk about topics that are sensitive or complex, especially if I've never personally experienced them, I want to be really mindful to say things in the best way and be inclusive and all of that. So if I say anything that's off base or a learning opportunity for myself and those listening in, please feel free to dive into it. So I want to ask, how is addiction different for women? Or is it.
- [04:37]
Patti Clark
That's a. That's a big topic. I mean, the first thing I want to say, yes, it is different in myriad ways. The first thing I want to talk about though is before the recovery part of it, just in the addiction part, that women have a higher tendency to get cancer, many different kinds of cancer than men from alcohol. And it's been proven in study after study after study that alcohol is toxic. And alcohol does cause cancer. It's not debatable. Women tend to be more affected by that because of our body, our makeup, our metabolism, we carry more fat than water. Alcohol is diluted by water, it's held by fat. We have less of an enzyme that breaks down alcohol so that the rates of cancer are higher in women. And I personally have that experience because my own mother died of cancer related to her alcoholism. She died of stomach cancer is what was on the death certificate, but it was through her body. And yeah, it was caused by alcohol. And I've seen that with other people as well. So there's no Question about the impact on women in terms of that. And, you know, nobody wants to hear about alcohol causing cancer. You know, sort of like, you know, no, it's for fun. It's for et cetera. But people like myself that tend to be more. More inclined to our addiction or just identify as addicts really need to know that.
- [06:22]
Nicole Kahlil
So I guess, let me ask. When it comes to what causes addiction, I know that there are hereditary components of it. I know that there are traumatic or escape mental health components of it. And I'm sure there is a lot of things that contribute to why anybody would have an addiction. Do you notice or see anything that contributes that's different for women? Like, is it a different pressure or an increased experience of, as an example, sexual assault? Does that lead to, like. I want to talk about recovery, but I'm curious if there are any reasons that are unique to women that might cause addiction on a different or a higher level. Is my question making any sense?
- [07:09]
Patti Clark
Absolutely. It makes perfect sense. And I totally. I totally hear you. I totally can focus in on my belief. I mean, there's many discussions around it, but I adhere more to. Do you. Are you familiar with Gabor Mate?
- [07:24]
Nicole Kahlil
No.
- [07:24]
Patti Clark
He's a doctor, and he writes a lot about trauma and addiction. He's fabulous. If you get a chance to read him or listen to him, he's wonderful. And his belief and what he has proven in his studies as. As a doctor and working with addicts is that the biggest thing that leads to addiction is trauma. So there is the whole idea of disease. And I was raised in a family with addiction. Both of my parents were alcoholics, and my mother, as I said, died of alcoholism. So I. I would fit in the box of. Of it being hereditary. But being raised in a family with addiction is also dramatic. My mother died when I was 16 years old. My father had left home when I was 12. Our family was chaotic. There were all of the family secrets. It was, you know, an insane place to be raised. There was trauma. So to me, that makes more sense than just it being a disease and biological and the trauma. You know, I'll talk about myself. I've talked to a lot of women that are recovering or relapsed and came back or whatever. That's. That's a lot of the information I used when I was writing my book. So for me, it really fits what. What Gabor Mate says, which is instead of asking why the addiction, we should be asking why we turned to addiction. Because for the most part, addicts and alcoholics will say that they turned to it to numb, to stop the pain. And so the pain is where we should be looking. Why the pain? What's that about? And healing that helps lead to that recovery. And you asked specifically about women. You know, this is women's work. Many of the women that I spoke to discussed sexual trauma, sexual abuse, starting in the family, because it's often, you know, it's a family disease. And if there's addiction in the family, there's often, you know, some type of sexual abuse and trauma. There's a lot of addicts that in order, depending, not as much with alcoholism, but certainly with different kinds of addiction, in order to feed that addiction, to support it, they turn to, you know, different areas and activities that lead to more trauma, which then leads to wanting to numb out even more. So that's where it ties into women and addiction. And then all of the other stuff about it just being harder in our society to be. To be a woman, to look good, to be doing the job, to be working extra harder than all the things you've talked about in your podcast and doing all the work, work at home, as well as working outside on all of those pieces. And if we have something that we're trying to numb out as well, it blows up. It just becomes overwhelming right now.
- [10:47]
Nicole Kahlil
I'm not asking this question because I believe we should feel this way, but my understanding is that most people who are addicts feel a lot of shame or guilt or judgment about their addiction, which contributes to a fear, unwillingness, a difficulty in asking for help and going toward recovery. Can you share a little bit? I know you have personal experience about what that even feels like. And then how do you make the choice, a very brave choice, I might add, to commit to your recovery.
- [11:24]
Patti Clark
That's a great question. So. And again, it's many layered, you know, your questions sort of open things up and it takes a lot of unpacking. So, yes, there's a lot of shame attached to it. And that's why 12 step programs are anonymous programs. And yet I for one, feel like it's incredibly important to talk about it because people need to know that it's not just full of shame. And it's not, if you walk into a 12 step room, it's not just people that were laying on the gutter yesterday with a brown paper bag or that were shooting up in the alley. It's people need to hear normalize it, I guess. So, yes, there's a lot of shame, absolutely. And there's a lot of judgment and lack of Knowledge, because there's not as much talked about. That's one of the reasons I wrote Recovery Road Trip. There are many books, of course, written about recovery, but in order to unpack some of it is the best way I can put it for me. Again, I'm going back to my story because that's, that's where I. I can speak most connected. Of course. I got sober just before my 30th birthday in 1988. And I got clean and sober because my husband and I were talking about having kids. And I swore I was not going to be my mother, therefore I was going to stop drinking. Also, there had been a lot of conflict between my boyfriend then and my husband now about my drinking and using. And I. I knew I was out of control, so. And my sister was in recovery and I'd watched my mother die, my father also an alcoholic. So that decision was easier. And I did it for all the right reasons. And I went to my first 12 step meeting in Tucson, Arizona, and it was a women's meeting. And it was all women that were my age, ish, you know, late 20s into early 40s. I felt connected, I felt engaged, loved. And then we moved to New Zealand and I had been sober for almost 13 years, clean and sober. But the recovery circles here in this small town were very different than what I had started with. And there was a. This is tying into to another subject I want to talk about. This is women's work. Very patriarchal, very male dominated. And a lot of the literature in 12 step programs is extremely male dominated. It was written in the 30s by a couple of white men, you know, and it was, it's very, very patriarchal. The books aren't, but the people can be incredibly misogynistic as well. So I walk. I was part of this recovery community here that I did not feel a part of. And so I quit going to meetings. And I felt like, you know, screw it. And the longer I stayed away from people in recovery, the more I felt like, eh, I don't really need it. And I was hanging out with people who were drinking. And after 13 years of recovery, I just thought, I can do this. You know, I've read the literature, I've done the counseling. I'm good. I quit going to meetings. I moved away from the, from my recovery, the recovery community. And I was hanging out more with people that were drinking really good wine. You know, I mean, sitting out on a deck near a beach and having wine, I mean, come on. So it wasn't long before I started Drinking again. And my kids were in school, I had had the kids, you know, brought the kids to that level. I had done my job, so to speak. And I was out in that world drinking for almost 13 years again and part of, you know, normal society. And I never talked about being in recovery because of the shame associated with that. I was just one of the mothers, right? And what happened was after 13 years I really got to the point and this is, this is the essence is I didn't like myself when I drank. And so 13 years after being out in the normal world and you know, I didn't fuck up too much. I didn't, you know, get in any car accidents, I didn't hurt anybody aside from myself, native fool myself a few times. But so after 13 years I just thought, I don't like myself when I drink. I don't like that, I don't like the hangovers, I don't like blackouts, I don't like all of that stuff. But I don't like myself as much when I drink. And I decided to get back into recovery then. And at that point when I was doing it for me, not for what I could do for the kids, not to stay with my husband, not to, you know, try and hold my life together for those around me, instead did it for me that my recovery at that point really changed and you know, really fits into. This is women's work. This was my work. I talked to other women. I found women that were in recovery here. As a matter of fact, when I decided to get back into recovery here, I saw a man walk into a coffee shop in this town that I'm in and I recognized him from my first round and a woman was with him and I thought, oh, she is cool looking. I really like how she looks. She dressed cool, she had this beautiful flowing hair. And I walked up to him and said, I don't know if you remember me, it's been a while. And he said, oh yeah, yeah, I remember you. And I said, oh, how nice. I reintroduced myself and I said, but actually I'm not here to talk to you, I'm here to talk to you. And I asked her and I said, are you in recovery? And she said I am. And I said, I am desperate for a woman's meeting. And she said great, let's start one. And so we started our own group and started out with focusing more on emotional sobriety and how it impacts women.
- [17:24]
Nicole Kahlil
That leads perfectly to a follow up question I had was I remember being younger and somebody saying once an Alcoholic, Always an alcoholic. And what I think they were trying to tell me was that recovery is an always ongoing thing. And my question is, around relapsing. What are the things that we can be doing to support ourselves if we're struggling with addiction or to support the people we care about if they're dealing with addiction, to help prevent relapsing?
- [17:55]
Patti Clark
Yeah. Women tend to relapse more because of what they're not getting in recovery, rather than some of the men that I've spoken to where it's that they're missing something or they're drawn back into an old fold. And a lot of that is. I mean, I spoke to a lot of women and as I was writing my book, women who had relapsed and had either decided to come back or not. And the majority of them spoke about not getting what they needed in recovery circles due to the patriarchy, due to not seeing themselves in the literature or in the rooms, and not having a community to support them in that I found for myself by staying away from recovery circles, I. It was too easy for me to relapse. And I don't do well with drinking. I am an addict in so many ways. But women tend to need more of that emotional connection. And there were so many times in recovery rooms where there were old white men, and they usually were, who would say, put a plug in the jug. You've got two ears and one mouth. Just don't drink. Come to meetings and listen. And I'd be crying and I'd be a mess and saying, I need more than that. This is not enough for me. And so that was the problem. And that's what I've heard from a lot of women, is they didn't see themselves in the room or they didn't see themselves reflected in some of the literature.
- [19:39]
Nicole Kahlil
I can't say that that surprises me too much just because I know from working with so many women and being one, obviously myself, is this feeling when something is hard or challenging or difficult or that you don't like in your life, this tendency we have of feeling like we're the only one. Right. There's something wrong with us. We're broken in some way that nobody else is. And I've found so much value in every challenge or struggle in being able to. To connect with and commiserate with other women, if not for no other reason than not feeling so alone, or not feeling like it's just me, or not feeling like I'm broken, especially. And as you said this earlier, when you recognize that something like this impacts a variety of people. It's not, as you said, the visual we have in our minds of somebody in an alley, she shooting up heroin or something like that. This is like somebody you work with, somebody you might be in a carpool line with, somebody you are friends with and don't even know. I mean, there's so many ways that this shows up. And again, it just doesn't surprise me that community and being able to talk and connect with other people, especially other women, would be an integral part of most women's recovery. Patti, I don't know if this came up in your research for your book or in your personal experience, but I think a lot of times when we think of addiction and women, we think more of women supporting someone else with an addiction, whether it be a spouse or a child or something like that, than we do women being addicts themselves. So my first question is, how prevalent is it that women are addicts themselves? I don't know if you have any statistics or this is happening more than I think we think it is. And are we doing a disservice to women who are experiencing it themselves by always thinking about it as them being the caretakers of an addict?
- [21:52]
Patti Clark
The caretakers are the are. Are known more as codependents. And I don't know if you've read any of the books about codependence, but Melody Beatty is. Is an amazing author and written a lot about that. And a lot of the early literature in 12 step talks about, you know, there's even a chapter, quote, unquote, to the wives. You know, it's like. And very much about those caretakers. And yet it's just as many women. But they don't talk about it as much. Women, not always. And it is changing. But women tend to drink more at home than to be out. And professional women tend to worry more about how they look and so might not drink as much if they're in a group. You know, I've heard that from several professional women that they really keep an eye on their drinking and then might go home and drink more. Biologically, we are more caretakers. So if there is someone in our life, in our family, in our immediate family or larger family, that is struggling with an addiction, women are more the ones that go in and do the caretaking. Definitely that's true. But what I found with a lot of women, not all women, but with a lot of women, what in program speak is called double winners, codependent as hell and addicts and both, and they merge and they go together and it gets real sticky. It's sort of like we're caretaking, but at the same time we're using. And then what, in my opinion, are the best meetings are the meetings where it's not like you go here for alcohol, you go here for your cocaine addiction, you go here if it's marijuana, you go here for eating, you go here for shopping, you go here. In my opinion, it's insane. An addict is an addict is an addict. So I love finding meetings where it's like, come on in. Identify yourself with an addict. What do you use to numb out? Oh, I use online gambling, I use sex. I use eating, I use shopping. I use, you know, all of the above, which is quite a few. And women tend to have myriad, myriad addictions. And I know with. With several women that I know that are in the program, they will identify many, many different addictions that tend that they use to numb out depending on what's available. You know, most people with screens now, of course, but, you know, it's impacting the brain in a similar way. We're getting those hits we're feeling okay because of these hits that we're getting, rather than feeling the knot in our stomach or the closed throat or tenseness. Yeah, it depends on what you're looking for to feel better.
- [24:41]
Nicole Kahlil
I said this in my opening that I haven't experienced addiction personally. I think I said it in a traditional way or in a stereotypical way. I think, again, we often think of somebody hitting rock bottom or, you know, not able to function in some way. What are some ways that we can identify outside of rock bottom that we might have an addiction? And even if it's not where we need recovery help, maybe it's more preventative help so it doesn't become a real problem or a bigger problem, maybe is a better way to say it. You mentioned, you know, just the feeling of not liking yourself when you're doing something. I would imagine being conscious of the fact of, why am I doing this? Is it to numb out? Because if it's to numb out, that might be a sign. Are there other things that we should or could look to that would tell us whether we have an addiction or are creating an addiction in our own lives?
- [25:39]
Patti Clark
Yeah. First of all, no one can identify that you're an addict except yourself. And if somebody else is saying it, we tend to go into denial. It's what we do. But if you're uncomfortable about something and you immediately pick up something in order to stop it, chances are there's an addiction playing in there. And I mean, all of us, we've got our phones. Immediately, it's sort of like we're sitting in a room, we're uncomfortable. Our phone comes out. I'm not comfortable with this at all. Situation. If we're quote unquote bored, oh, my God, what should I do? We open the fridge and we're looking at something. Sugar. There's a sugar addiction underlying, you know, food just to be filling the hole, gambling. In terms of, I'll be better when. Just this one more, just this one more, and then I'll be okay. So that idea of, I'm not okay as I am if I do this, drink this, take this, use this, whatever, I feel better about me, I'm okay. In the world, when you're not feeling okay about yourself, are you immediately looking for someone to have sex with so you feel okay about yourself? That's a red flag. If you're shoving food down your throat because there's a hole and you're feeling uncomfortable, it's a red flag. If you feel like, I cannot go out in the world unless I have a joint to just mellow out, it's a red flag. If you can't imagine going to a social event and not having a little bit of wine before you go and then some wine when you get there, and you're already planning about the Uber to get home, it's a red flag. So I think most people would say there's some difficulty in just being quiet on your own. If you have that ability to do that, awesome. Awesome. It's great achievement. But if you're alone and you're constantly scurrying for something, that's something to be looking at. And most. Most women tend to. Alcohol is huge. Shopping massive. You know, it's like, I don't know what to do. I could use a new handbag. I could use a new, you know, without being stereotypical. It's amazing how many women do that and then are embarrassed. Start. I was just talking to somebody who was saying they have three different spaces where they can have their stuff dropped off because they're so embarrassed about getting stuff sent to their house. It's not uncommon. And buying online has made it even worse. And you hit that buy and you get that bing, you know, that bit of a buzz in your, you know, in your brain and penetrates the through.
- [28:22]
Nicole Kahlil
So what I'm hearing, too, is all the red flags, but also the feeling you get when the endorphin rush wears off. How do you Feel about yourself on the other side of that is probably a clear indicator if what you did was healthy or oops, I made a mistake versus an addiction. Right. Like if you're constantly feeling less than or empty or, you know, as you said, not okay in the world, hoping that something would make you feel that way, doing it and then feeling worse about yourself, that's probably a pretty good sign.
- [28:57]
Patti Clark
Right? And the, and the shame associated with that. I mean, because that's, that's a great point. That red flag if when you say, shit, I don't have the money for this and I did it again or you wake up hungover or you wake up next to somebody and shake your head, that shame associated with it, Absolutely perfect indicator.
- [29:17]
Nicole Kahlil
Okay, so my last question is, I think we both agree that one thing that's important is to make this part of our normal conversation and everyday communication. Creating a safe space for people, for women to share that they're struggling or that they have an addiction or that they're in recovery or on the road to recovery. But in order for that to happen, we actually need to create the safe space. So my question is, what can we do for other people, other women, people we love, to support them in their addiction and recovery journey?
- [29:56]
Patti Clark
Yeah, it's all about that connection. There's a wonderful quote by Johann Hari. The opposite of addiction is not sobriety. The opposite of addiction is connection. People that are addicts of whatever form isolate with their addiction generally. And talking about it being open without judgment is massive. And 12 step is not for everybody at all. You know, I totally know that and, and, and support anyone. But it's about listening without judgment. It's about being open to asking questions without the judgment and the blame and just saying, you know, I noticed yesterday that whatever was going on, is there anything I can do to support you? It's the people that are in denial will be saying, no, no, no, I'm fine and may get really pissed off at you. I mean, that happens. But at the same time, if you feel supported, that makes the difference. And that honesty, you know, in 12 step recovery, they talk about, this is an honest program. Don't bring some facade. This is a place where you can go and be absolutely honest, talk about whatever it was and leave it there. And people are listening and saying, yeah, that's a bitch. I know. And I think that that is the best thing to help. That caring attitude, that honesty, that non judgmental, non shaming way of being. And people love to be connected with others that are going through the Same thing. And that's one of the biggest things with, with recovery circles. But it doesn't have to be 12 step. There's just so many programs out there that aren't 12 step, that are. That are different facets of just people coming together, wanting to support each other.
- [31:43]
Nicole Kahlil
Thank you, Patty. I'm reminded as you're talking that judgment and judging others can also be an addiction. And what an important thing it is for us to create a judgment free environment and a safe place for people, especially those we care about and claim to support. So. So thank you for this important conversation. I know people are gonna wanna find and follow you. First, let me tell you, the book is called Recovery Road Trip and it's available on Amazon or wherever you buy books. And the website is pattyclark.org we'll put that and all the other links in show notes. Patti, thank you very much for a great conversation.
- [32:21]
Patti Clark
Thank you so much, Nicole. It has been an absolute pleasure.
- [32:25]
Nicole Kahlil
Okay, friends. As we've learned from Patti's incredible insights today, addiction recovery is not a one size fits all thing. For many women, it comes with added layers of complexity, whether it's navigating societal expectations, dealing with shame, or managing the intersection of roles as mothers, partners, and or professionals. But here's what we know for sure. Recovery, while deeply personal, is always an act of courage. It's a process that's supported by purpose, connection, and most importantly, compassion. Recovery is more than just staying sober. It's about reclaiming your life in a way that feels true to who you are and want to be. And if there's one thing I hope you take away, it's that your journey, no matter how winding it may be, has value. And there's always hope. And if you need support, know that you're worthy of it. And there's no shame in getting it. Because recovering from anything that holds you back and giving yourself grace in the process, well, that is woman's work.