Episode Overview

Podcast: This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
Episode: "Work Doesn’t Have to Suck: The Case for Fun, Joy, and Better Results with Bree Groff"
Date: January 26, 2026
Guest: Bree Groff, workplace culture expert and author of Today Was Fun

This episode explores the provocative notion that joy, play, and genuine fun belong at work—and not just as fringe benefits, but as necessary ingredients for meaningful, impactful, and productive workplaces. Nicole Kalil and Bree Groff dismantle outdated beliefs about what "real work" should feel like, propose a healthy middle ground between "grind culture" and "do what you love," and offer actionable advice (and validation) for listeners seeking more satisfaction from their working lives.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Challenging Work and Fun as Opposites (03:57–07:45)

• Nicole opens by expressing her shock at the idea of describing work as fun, noting it’s rare for women to say, "I had so much fun at work today."

• Bree responds by recognizing that most have internalized a dichotomy—fun is for after-work, and professionalism means enduring difficulty, not enjoying tasks.

  “The thought that fun and work could coexist, that actually fun is how you do great work, is in many ways a new concept.”
  — Bree Groff (04:15)

• Bree references the physics definition of work: "effort that makes a difference" (04:13), emphasizing there’s nothing about pain or stress being required for value.

• Bree pushes back against both "work must be drudgery" and "follow your passion at all costs":

  • The passion narrative can leave people feeling like failures for not loving every minute.
  • Ideal is a middle ground: “a career full of just really pretty decent good days at work with people that we enjoyed.” (07:24)

The Productivity Paradox & Artificial Intelligence (09:09–12:23)

• Nicole wonders why, with technology improving productivity, we still keep the same long hours.

• Bree acknowledges the utopian vs. dystopian paths technology could offer:

  • In a utopia, we’d use those gains to reduce burnout and workweeks.
  • But pressures lead to organizations squeezing more out of fewer people.

  “Even I, when I find myself more productive, my brain first goes to: oh, what else can I take on? … It’s very hard for me to take the win ... and simply put that towards naps.”
  — Bree Groff (10:39)

• Bree advocates for "standing up for the value of our unproductive time," asserting enjoyment purely because it matters to us—not because of its output. (11:57)

The Integration of Self—At Work and Outside (12:23–14:25)

• Nicole notes we tend to compartmentalize our work selves and personal selves, but recognizes her best work comes when her life, outside work, is flourishing, and vice versa.
• She anticipates audience skepticism around whether employee joy should matter in profit-driven businesses.

Making the Case: People vs. Profit (14:25–18:06)

• Bree addresses the business case for fun and employee engagement:

  • Traditional arguments include increased productivity, retention, and profitability.
  • But fundamentally, it’s about responsibly stewarding the "human days" we acquire as employers.

  “You are acquiring human days, and you’re in charge … Was I a good steward of the few Mondays that I was responsible for how they spent those?”
  — Bree Groff (16:40)

• Concludes that engagement and joy naturally lead to better business outcomes—“the research is out there. It’s going to take care of your business if you take care of your people.” (17:48)

Fun as Essential, Not an Add-on (18:47–20:33)

• Bree reframes the conversation: Fun isn’t merely happy hour and perks—using our skills, having ownership, and seeing impact can be inherently fun.

• Points out that famed scientist Katalin Karikó woke up excited for her scientific work—a real-world example of fun as the engine for brilliance, not a distraction from it.

  “Doing really high quality, impactful work is fun … The fun is actually in the work. It’s not the accoutrement. … There’s nothing at odds with having fun and doing great work.”
  — Bree Groff (18:50)

Busyness, Conformity, and the Death of Brilliance (22:58–26:28)

• Busyness (constant meetings, emails, interruptions) and a culture of conformity stifle the conditions required for big ideas.
• Bree calls out “busyness” and “conformity” as misunderstood forms of professionalism:
  • “Brilliance does not grow out of a soil of conformity ... Being a little bit weird... often felt to be unprofessional.” (25:23)
  • Spaciousness—blocked out thinking time—is crucial for insight, not just relentless productivity.

Strategies for Subversive Professionalism (28:01–32:21)

• Nicole asks: "How do we show up authentically in cultures that don’t encourage quirks or humanity?"

• Bree recommends exposure therapy-style micro-misbehaviors: wet hair on Zoom, quirky socks, fun fonts—small acts that humanize teams and often give others permission to do the same.

  “It’s a one small subversive act. ... You become what I call a ‘give no shits’ role model ... That person feels free and confident and empowered.”
  — Bree Groff (30:35)

• Small, unapologetic acts of individuality can create cultural permission for others, especially women, to ditch perfectionism and embrace authenticity.

Delayed Gratification: When It Hurts, Not Helps (33:38–36:03)

• Bree critiques conventional wisdom around delayed gratification when it leads to sacrificing well-being, relationships, and pleasure for distant promises of "having fun later."

  “If you are overworking, you are underliving. You are actually postponing the most beautiful parts of your life.”
  — Bree Groff (34:53)

• Argues for actively taking joy now—no system should convince us that our health, pleasure, and relationships are expendable.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• (04:15) Bree Groff: “The thought that fun and work could coexist … is in many ways a new concept and one that I’m trying to galvanize in workplaces.”
• (07:24) Bree Groff: “Maybe it’s plenty to have a career full of just really pretty decent good days at work with people that we enjoyed. And maybe that’s actually a really beautiful version of work.”
• (10:39) Bree Groff: “It’s very hard for me to take the win of oh, I’ve now become more efficient … and simply put that towards naps.”
• (16:40) Bree Groff: “You are acquiring human days, and you’re in charge. … Was I a good steward of the few Mondays that I was responsible for how they spent those?”
• (18:50) Bree Groff: “Doing really high quality, impactful work is fun …. The fun is actually in the work. It’s not the accoutrement.”
• (25:23) Bree Groff: “Brilliance does not grow out of a soil of conformity.”
• (30:35) Bree Groff: “You become what I call a give no shits role model … That person feels free and confident and empowered.”
• (34:53) Bree Groff: “If you are overworking, you are underliving. You are actually postponing the most beautiful parts of your life.”
• (37:29) Nicole Kalil: “Work doesn’t have to be miserable to be meaningful. Hard doesn’t automatically equal valuable. And fun isn’t a distraction from real work. … It can be the very thing that makes the work better.”

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:57 — Why fun and work feel incompatible, and why that needs to change.
• 06:02 — The two mindsets about work Bree wants to challenge.
• 09:09 — The paradox of productivity gains from technology and persistent overwork.
• 12:23 — Integration of our work and personal selves; why life joy matters at work.
• 14:25 — Making the argument for fun even in profit-driven enterprises.
• 18:47 — “Fun is in the work itself, not just the perks.”
• 22:58 — Busyness and conformity as killers of brilliant work and the importance of “doing nothing.”
• 28:01 — How to subversively push for authentic, human workplaces, even in buttoned-up cultures.
• 33:38 — The downside of delayed gratification in our work lives.
• 37:29 — Nicole’s wrap-up on redefining the value of fun and joy at work.

Overall Tone

The conversation is candid, friendly, and validating—balancing empathy for those burnt out by hustle culture with invigorating calls to action. Both Nicole and Bree are direct but encouraging, offering permission to embrace fun as a legitimate, necessary aspect of meaningful, productive work.

Actionable Takeaways

• Challenge inherited beliefs about work needing to be hard and joyless; start asking what would make your days “pretty decent” and enjoyable.
• Value your unproductive time—assert its worth even if it doesn’t “show up on the P&L.”
• Recognize (and model) small acts of authenticity at work: a quirky background, a bit of personality in attire or presentation, sharing the reality of your life outside work.
• Advocate for spaciousness—protect your “do nothing” hours or days as sources of future brilliance.
• Don’t save joy for later—take small pleasures today, without apology.

Further Information

For more from Bree Groff: briegroff.com<br> Book: Today Was Fun<br> Podcast host: Nicole Kalil

This episode is a must-listen for anyone questioning why misery is still an expectation in our working lives—or seeking permission to bring more humanity and joy to the supposedly serious world of work.