Work Shouldn’t Suck: How to Make It Good with Moe Carrick | 356

Summary

Podcast Summary

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil

Episode 356: Work Shouldn’t Suck – How to Make It Good with Moe Carrick
Date: October 27, 2025

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Episode Overview

Nicole Kalil welcomes back workplace culture pioneer Moe Carrick to delve into the pressing question: “How do we make work good?” Building on their previous discussion about women and masculinity at work, this episode explores what it truly means for work to be positive and fulfilling. The conversation challenges outdated notions of “woman’s work,” diving into the practical, psychological, and cultural shifts needed to make workplaces authentic, human-centered, and rewarding for all.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Makes Work "Good"? (04:32–06:03)

• Moe Carrick’s Definition:
  • "When work is good, it's fit for human life." (Moe 04:49)
  • Work should enable us to thrive at home, in our communities, and as individuals.
  • We spend more time at work than any other single activity, so thriving there is crucial.
• Nicole’s Interjection:
  • “Yeah. You don’t want to like throw yourself out of a window, Right.” (Nicole 04:49)
  • They agree: Good work is about wanting to show up most days. It’s expected that there will be tough days, but overall, work shouldn’t drain our will to live.

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2. The Seven Human Needs at Work (06:04–10:04)

• Carrick's Framework:

  • Moe references her “seven needs of work,” validated and echoed by research from the U.S. Surgeon General.
  • Main Needs Discussed:
    • Connection: Work is a primary source of community post-school. Loss of a job/retirement often means loss of this vital network.
    • Compensation: Must cover basic needs and feel fair. Once met, pay drops in motivational priority—"Pay is a terrible way to motivate people at work" (Moe 08:00).
    • Purpose/Contribution: Wanting work to matter. Not necessarily a grand mission—"I can find meaning in this thing and I have stories about that..." (Moe 08:46).
    • Learning & Growth: Work enables continual development.
    • Being Seen/Known: Having someone know your name and story.
    • Safety: Encompasses physical and psychological safety; essential for creativity and innovation.

• Nicole Adds:

  • “So to be able to be your authentic self... not expend so much energy trying to fit in.” (Nicole 10:04)
  • The struggle to assimilate drains energy and stifles authenticity and contribution, especially for women and minorities.

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3. Why Do Workplaces Go Wrong? (12:13–16:12)

• Profit as the Only Metric:
  • “When profit is the only thing that we measure that matters, then a lot of other stuff is at risk of becoming toxic.” (Moe 12:59)
  • Moe asserts she supports profit—but when it trumps all else, humanity suffers.
• Profit vs. People:
  • Nicole counters: Employee thriving leads to profit—it’s not a zero-sum game.
• The Challenge of Proving ROI:
  • Hard to quantify returns on culture or leadership investment vs. machinery—“You cannot control people. They have brains and hearts, they bring them to work.” (Moe 15:13)
  • Leaders often default to what’s measurable, leaving the complex “people equation” under-addressed.
• Leadership Is Hard:
  • Both Nicole and Moe concede—“You’re confronted with yourself very often where you’re like, oh, I didn’t do that so good.” (Nicole 16:12)
  • Leadership requires vulnerability, relentless effort, and ongoing self-reflection.

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4. The Role of Leaders and Employees (16:56–19:45)

• Modeling Behavior:
  • Leaders must “set the tone ... be in the game ... willing to be human and imperfect.” (Moe 18:15)
  • Outdated hero narratives hurt workplaces.
• Employee Responsibility:
  • Employees shouldn’t act as victims—“If we only put it on the employer, we're acting like a victim. And I think that's always dangerous.” (Moe 17:08)
  • Most employment is still a choice with trade-offs, despite turmoil and political fear.
• Mutual Expectations:
  • Nicole: Employees also pedestal leaders, setting up disappointment.

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5. What Can Employees Do? (21:51–29:44)

• Recognize Choice & Trade-Offs:
  • Even if it doesn’t always feel like it, most jobs involve choices and trade-offs; acknowledging them brings empowerment.
  • Moe’s personal story: Taking a less fulfilling job for location and resume experience.
• Self-Awareness:
  • Knowing one’s “conditions for thriving” is foundational. Moe shares her own failed dream of journalism as a lesson in self-knowledge.
• Communication & Asking for What You Need:
  • Nicole: “People are mind readers and they’re just supposed to know, as opposed to, no, we have to tell them.” (Nicole 24:57)
  • Moe: Employees often need “frequent, reality-tested” conversations with superiors about their needs and the trade-offs entailed.

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6. Compensation, Reality Checks & The Bigger Picture (28:00–31:06)

• The Wage Gap and Perception:
  • Nicole cites a study showing women overwhelmingly feel underpaid, even if evidence says otherwise.
• Moe’s Paradox:
  • Women are less likely to voice pay concerns, often simmering in passive resentment.
  • “It's important... to examine my pay in the context of the other ways in which this job is adding quality to my life.” (Moe 30:01)
  • Factors like flexibility, team culture, and learning also compensate us, albeit less tangibly.

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7. Navigating Bad Days & Preventing Burnout (31:26–34:15)

• Self-Care as Survival:
  • Moe: "If I’m really at risk of being overwhelmed or I’m burning out, that’s an indicator to me to say, take exquisite care of me." (Moe 31:43)
  • The Shelter Model: Sleep, breathing, relationships, water, food, exercise, rest.
  • Nicole: “When you’re in it, you feel like doing all the opposite of what you should be doing.” (Nicole 33:06)
• Women and Prioritization:
  • Moe: Women are conditioned to put themselves last—"I gotta be first because I'm the only one that can control how well I am." (Moe 34:07)

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8. The Future of Work (34:39–35:44)

• Moe’s Vision:
  • "I dream of workplaces that are communities where we get our needs met and we do things together that we can’t do alone." (Moe 34:41)
  • Humanity and productivity are inseparable; work remains challenging but is meaningful, never toxic.
• Nicole’s Rallying Cry:
  • "Work should be good. It should support our ambitions without sacrificing our wellbeing... It should be a place where we can bring our full and best selves, where our contributions matter and where we don’t have to leave our humanity at the door." (Nicole 36:13)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “When work is good, it's fit for human life.” — Moe Carrick (04:49)
• “Pay is a terrible way to motivate people at work.” — Moe Carrick (08:00)
• “Connection is a basic human need like food, water, shelter, safety and security, and work is one of the primary ways we get connection.” — Moe Carrick (06:52)
• “We have to be able to walk the talk... set the tone... be in the game... willing to be human and imperfect.” — Moe Carrick (18:15)
• “Women are far less likely to name their pay concerns than men ... [they] sink more into passively feeling resentful.” — Moe Carrick (29:44)
• “When I’m really at risk of being overwhelmed... that’s an indicator to me to say, take exquisite care of me.” — Moe Carrick (31:43)
• “For me to be a high performer, ... I gotta be first because I'm the only one that can control how well I am.” — Moe Carrick (34:07)
• “Work gives us so much meaning, but it doesn’t incur the cost of toxic overwork. But it can be hard work, right, like for me, the future of work may include hard work. And hard work at times is just magical, isn't it?” — Moe Carrick (34:41)
• “Work should be good… not drain the will to live out of us.” — Nicole Kalil (36:13)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• What is “good work”? – 04:32
• Seven human needs at work – 06:04
• Why it goes wrong: Profit vs. Humanity – 12:13
• The challenge of leadership – 16:06
• Role of leaders vs. pedestal syndrome – 16:56
• Employee agency and self-awareness – 21:51
• Communication about needs & real trade-offs – 24:57
• Compensation, perception, and context – 28:00
• Self-care and preventing burnout – 31:26
• The future of good work – 34:39
• Final rallying call – 36:13

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a nuanced yet practical framework for anyone who wants their work—or their teams and companies—to be more than just a grind for a paycheck. Moe Carrick and Nicole Kalil emphasize that thriving at work is not only possible but essential for personal and organizational success. They encourage leaders and employees alike to embrace complexity, communicate needs, focus on holistic well-being, and build a new work culture—one where profit and humanity are allies, not adversaries.

Resources:

• Learn more about Moe Carrick and complete her free People Culture Pulse Check at Momentum.com
• For related past episodes, check the show notes.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast, where together we're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. From boardrooms to studios, kitchens to coding dens, from your street to Wall street, we explore the multifaceted experiences of today's woman. We cover a whole gamut of topics, including, of course, your actual work, like what you do for a living. And our guest today and I share the belief that your work should be good. It's where we spend a ridiculous amount of our lives. We give so much of our energy, time and talent to our work and. And yet somehow so many companies manage to make it miserable, stripping away engagement, satisfaction and humanity like it's their corporate mission. One of course, you'd never see displayed on any marketing material. Which begs the question, why? Why is it so hard to create workplaces where people actually thrive? This question has been eating at me ever since episode 252 where Mo Carrick joined us to talk about women's role in defining masculinity at work. That conversation was so eye opening, I walked away with a notepad full of follow ups and a bunch of questions about how we can actually make work good that I didn't get to ask because that wasn't the focus of our last episode. So naturally I invited Mo back to help us dig deeper. If you missed episode 252, the link is in show notes along with the links to related episodes. If you're looking for more on this topic. But let me reintroduce you to Mo Carrick. She is a pioneer in workplace culture and leadership. A woman who's helped companies like Nike, Reddit and Amazon figure out how to make work not just bearable, but good. Her award winning frameworks have been transforming businesses for over two decades and she's a bestselling author, TEDx speaker, and all around badass when it comes to human connection and thriving workplace practices. Today we're diving headfirst into the big juicy question about how to make work better good. So Mo, thank you for coming back on the show. And I'd love to kick off the conversation by asking you what you mean when you say how we can make work good. Like, what does work being good even mean?

[B]

Thank you, Nicole. And it's so great to be with you again. And thank you for having me back. What a delight. And this is my favorite topic, as you know, I think, you know, it's pretty simple, isn't it? When you really boil it down? I think for me, when work is good, it's fit for human life.

[A]

Yeah. You don't want to like throw yourself out of a window, Right.

[B]

And it's like it brings out, it allows us to thrive in our homes and in our, in our, in our lives and in our communities. It makes us better. It, you know, when work is good, we want to go to work. Like most days, not every day because, you know, some days are just hard. Right. But I think that when work is good, good, our lives are better. And it matters a lot as you said in the interim, like we spend more time at work if we're working full time, sometimes even if we're not, than we do any other singular activity in the course of our lives. And we deserve to thrive there.

[A]

So it begs a lot of questions. I think the first one I want to dive into is based on your research, what needs to exist or what matters when it comes to making people want to go to work? I'm sure there's variations, like what is true for me might not be true for another person, but what are some of the commonalities that make us enjoy, thrive, or at least not hate our work on a general basis?

[B]

Yeah. So our research points to seven things, you know, and we call them the seven needs we have of work. And I was so delighted when our outgoing US Surgeon General, Dr. Vivek Murthy, reduced his workplace report on mental health and well being because he and his team in their research identified five. And those five really over they cover really the seven things that our research points to us needing. Now he didn't call me for the research, but like he could have. Right. So I feel very validated around what it is we need from work as humans. And is is solid. The research bases are solid. And so I won't bore you by like going through all seven things, but I'll talk through the ones that come up I think the most often, especially right now, which is a very, very turbulent time in the world of work. One big need of course that we have of work is our need for connection. And our need for connection is a basic human need. Many of these needs of work are, and by the way, I'm not going to share these in any particular order, but it's how we feel part of the herd. And it is a basic human need like food, water, shelter, safety and security. And work is one of the primary ways we get connection. When we're young, it's school, but then when we leave school it becomes work. And that's why one of the reasons why we see so much suffering happen at the point of retirement or when people experience job loss, because they all of a sudden are losing an entire network of community that really matters. So I think that's one. Obviously we all know that one of the needs we have of work is to meet our basic needs, which is about our cash and non cash compensation. We live in a capitalist society where we have to pay for things. So most of us, that's why we start working, you know, is to make money. But that continues to be A priority. What's really interesting about that one, Nicole, and I'll be curious how you see this is that that that need actually stays in first position. And unless two conditions are met, and those conditions are that we feel paid fairly and that we can meet our basic needs. In other words, we can pay our rent, buy our food, take care of the people that are dependent on us. But if those two needs are met, it falls in priority and becomes less significant, which is why pay is a terrible way to motivate people at work. If those two conditions exist, I feel paid fairly and I can meet my basic needs. So that's a little like tidbit, I think, for employers who are trying to get engagement and are throwing money at the problem and they're wondering why isn't this helping? But it is still a need that we have for work. We also need some additional ones that I think are really primary right now is to contribute, which is about purpose, Right. It's about doing something that matters to someone. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a lofty mission or a social purpose. It can be that. Like I can find meaning in this thing and I have stories about that when you're ready to hear that. But I think that's critical. I also think we, you. We need to learn at work. We need to grow. It's another basic human need on Maslow's hierarchy. But it is one that work provides a portal for many of us for learning well, to be seen and known, which is about having someone know our name, having someone know a little bit about our story, having someone expect us to be there, like that's important. It makes us feel. It is related to contributing, but it matters. And then one that is not as visible, I think all the time, but it definitely relates to what makes work good, is that we feel safe there. And that includes our physical safety.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So we're not going to lose a limb or be injured. But it also includes psychological safety, which is where this, where our capacity as humans to innovate and to create comes up is that we can be in with a team of people and we can do hard things knowing that we are. We are not going to be shamed, blamed or punished or recriminated for our ideas. And I think that's one of the. One of the needs.

[A]

So I think that that speaks to a lot of people. I'll also add to feel safe being yourself. Right. So to be able to be your authentic self, yes, in ideation and creativity, but also just to be able to show up and not expend so much energy trying to fit in. Like I. In some environments, I wasted so much of my time, energy, and talent trying to figure out how to. For lack of a better term, fit in, how to play the role, how to win the game the way I was told it was supposed to be played.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That I think the business and my peers and everybody, we lost something because I was expending so much energy there and not able to bring my full and best self to a lot of other things.

[B]

Absolutely. That's so powerfully said. And the word that comes to mind for me is that you had to be sort of in a crouched position. Right. Because you're not able to bring your full self forward. And in many cases, I'm imagining that for you, in some of those situations, you might have been the only. The only person, like you, the only woman, the only person of color, you know, whatever the dynamic is. And I think that that does require us often to assimilate rather than to wholeheartedly be part of something where assimilation means I become like you so that you can tolerate me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it doesn't feel good to feel like you have to assimilate. No.

[A]

It's exhausting. Yeah. Okay. So I can't say I'm surprised by any one thing. And I don't know that I've heard anybody lay it out like that, you know? And as you said, these are general needs, so not surprising that they would show up at work where we spend so much of our time and give so much of ourselves. So if this is the case, and I'm not going to let employees off the hook, so we'll get there. But before I do, why is it that so many employers, leaders, cultures are eroding engagement and satisfaction? Where are we getting it wrong if we kind of know what people need?

[B]

That's a money question, isn't it? Especially because I think most leaders I work with, and I bet most people you work with and you have on the show, they actually want to do the right thing. They want. They want to build workplaces that are good for people. They don't start out like, let's build a place that's toxic for people, right? Let's. Let's, like, really hurt them, you know, because, you know, every. Every good business owner knows that that's not gonna. They're not gonna be in business long if that happens. So there's a big gap between the toxicity that exists and what the leaders who built those companies want to exist. And so I Think that one problem is that we do live in a society here in the global west where profit sometimes becomes a North star and my company is a for profit company. I believe in profit. I'm, you know, I, I, I bought into the capitalist system. But when profit is the only thing that we measure that matters, then a lot of other stuff is at risk of becoming toxic because it creates and facilitates behaviors and ways of showing up that actually do not facilitate those needs we have of work. So I think that's one thing. And again, I'm not about debunk, I'm not about devaluing the importance of profit. Even nonprofit and government agencies need to have profit in order to continue to maintain operations.

[A]

But let me just. Sorry, cut in real quick. I think sometimes it seems like it's a competing interest where I see them totally linked. When people feel safe and seen and known and they can contribute and their basic needs are met and blah, blah, blah, I believe. And I feel like there's some pretty legitimate evidence out there that says that actually increases profitability.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Any idea of why people see them at odds with each other versus linked with each other?

[B]

I think it's because it's hard to prove. I think it's hard to prove. And you know, Nicole, early in my career, early in my career I can remember contorting myself as I was working with clients both when I was an in house consultant and when I started my own business to prove roi, because that's what everybody wants to see. Like, can you prove ROI for culture investment? Can you prove ROI for leadership development? And the fact of the matter is it's almost impossible to prove roi, just like it's pretty hard to prove ROI for, you know, making updates in your machinery or moving your plant or using AI. It's hard to actually put your finger exactly on the fact that you can guarantee a return on investment. And it's even harder when it comes to people because people are not machines. They are messy, they're imperfect, they have issues. And so it's hard to measure. I think that's one of the problems. I think the other problem is that it's more complex to implement well, right? So if all I have to do is get my automation working at a zero defect rate for 24 hours, seven days a week, then I can control that through good machining, et cetera. But I cannot control people. They have brains and hearts, they have issues, they bring them to work. And so it requires a whole lot of rigorous and relentlessness when it comes to bringing out Their best. And what I need to bring out their best is I need teams who care. I need leaders that are good for people. I need a conscious, brave culture that activates their talents for success. And that is not a one time deal. I can't write you a prescription for that. And you can't take a pill or you can't just bring in a new machine that you need to lubricate every day. So I think that's one of the reasons we stumble and bumble. And I will say also, Nicole, as a leader myself, I have mushed it up.

[A]

It's hard. This is not easy stuff, right? Like, it's not rigorous.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know, do it perfectly right. You make all sorts of mistakes. You are confronted with yourself very often where you're like, oh, I didn't do that so good, or this is not for the faint of heart. It is complex, it is rigorous, it is draining. You are going to fumble. I can see that being a reason why it's easier to just focus on the things you can control or profitability. And yet we demand so much of our employees. I hear leaders talk all the time about how frustrated they are with their employees and lack of ownership or learning or growth or blah, blah, blah. And, and I often think, are we modeling it?

[B]

Yes. Yes. Are we modeling it? And I was thinking as you were talking a little bit, it's interesting, isn't it? Because, and you mentioned this earlier, I do think employees have a huge role in their own thriving at work. And so I'm with you. I don't want to take employees off the hook. And I've got a thousand things that every employee can do to help themselves feel more successful. Because if we only put it on the employer, we're acting like a victim. And I think that's always dangerous. We are not a victim. Most of the vast majority, all of our employer, Employer employee relationships here in the United States of America are typically by choice. Now, right now, at this moment in time that you and I are talking, I'm not so sure because we've had huge disruption with the change in administration. And so there's a lot of fear that actually choice is going away. So, you know, I don't want to bring the politics into it, but it's a very dynamic time. But I think employees play a huge role. But you also said something really important, which is that we have to be able to walk the talk. And I was thinking about, you know, in almost any professional field, like, I'm not a huge sports fan, but My husband watches football. So we were watching football the other day. You know the quarterback who's on the field? Let's think of him as a leader, right? He calls a lot of the plays. He's out there. He's also playing the game. He's in, he's getting, he's at risk of getting hurt. He's on the field. If you look at the lead violinists in an orchestra, they are also keeping rhythm. So why do we expect that leaders should somehow be able to do their job well without being in the game, without setting the tone? And that means I have to show up, I have to do the work, I have to be willing to be vulnerable. I have to be willing to be human. I have to be willing to be imperfect because that's what I'm asking of my employees. And yet we expect that. We have, I think, very outdated mindsets that leaders need to be heroes versus human. And I think that contributes to a lot of problems in our workplaces.

[A]

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[A]

I can see that and I also can say as a past employee that I've contributed to that specific problem of putting leaders on a pedestal and then getting upset, you know, when they fall short, which they have no other choice but to do that. Not remembering that they are in fact human and human with a very complex evolving job. Leadership is hard, as we've said. So yeah, there is an element of that. So let's talk a little bit about what employees can do. What is their role in making work good for themselves and others?

[B]

I love that question. I think one is recognizing choice. Now I know that sometimes it can feel like it's not a choice, you know, And I've been there. I've been in a job, I've been trapped in a job that I didn't think I had any choice about. And it was horrible. I remember, I remember going to work and thinking, oh man, another day. I don't like this job. It's not good for me. One of the things that I think is really helpful is to remember that most of us are making a series of trade offs in our careers and to just validate and give ourselves permission to say, you know what, I'm trading this off. So for me, one of those jobs that I hated, I remember if I look back at it now in the review, I can see that I was trading off some personal satisfaction, some joy for getting good experience on my resume, for learning about a new field I didn't know anything about, for getting some chops and also for living in a region that I needed to as a newly married person. And those were it was reasonable for me to do that at that time. And now I can look at that and say, okay, so what might have felt like for me if I could have said, you know what, I've made this choice right now and it's good for me, even though it's a hard one. Instead of being like, this job sucks, this job sucks, this job sucks, I have to get out, like, because that's just a very trapped feeling. So I think one thing is like recognizing choice, being able to validate your own trade offs as being temporary. You know, most of us are going to have many jobs over the course of our life. So just acknowledging like this is right for me for now. I think another thing that we can do as employees is to be more self aware than we are around what are the conditions in which we thrive. And I'll never forget as I think about this, I'll never forget when I was in, at university, I was a writer. I was an English major and I was a writer and I wrote for the paper. And my fantasy was that I would be like a big scoop, like I'd work for the New York Times or whatever. And when I graduated, right as I was getting ready for graduation, the editor at the time of the paper asked me to lunch and we went to lunch and he said, you know, your writing's been so good for the paper and thank you so much and I wish you best of luck in your career. But I also wanted to steer you away from being a, a journalist. And I was like, what do you mean? Like I want to be the scoop. And he said, you're terrible at deadlines, you know what I mean? He's like, you, you just, you know, every story you've written, it's come in just another wire or late and that's not going to work. Now your writing is beautiful, so that's awesome. But there's a lot of other ways you could do that. And I remember being devastated. I was like, oh God, this is horrible. I was ashamed. All these feelings and of course that's what he predicted has played out. I've written books, but I'm not a journalist. I probably would have been terrible journalist in terms of the way that I roll. So like deeply getting self aware, thinking about what is it that I need to thrive. And then if I'm working for someone, how can I try to ask for more of what I need? You know, maybe I need a more part time schedule, maybe I need a different shift, maybe I need less commute, maybe I need work from home. Maybe I need some different challenging assignments. Is it possible that I can stay in this job and get some of that? And if not, then maybe I do need to make a change. But that takes time. So being patient with ourselves I think oftentimes getting what we need from work starts with knowing what we need and then being willing and brave enough to talk about it.

[A]

I'm so glad you said that, because I like this idea of what are our needs and are there ways that we can get them met in different or better or more ways than we currently are? What does it mean for us to contribute? Like, how would I feel in this situation with this team, in this environment that I was contributing, and how can I go looking for that? But then you said, and then talk about it. I think there is a little bit of this idea still lingering that people are mind readers and they're just supposed to know, as opposed to, no, we have to tell them. And not just once in one way, multiple times and multiple different ways until it sinks in. Because especially large teams, you know, the idea that you've put it out there once and somebody is supposed to remember it and run with it on your behalf. Kind of silly.

[B]

It is kind of silly. It's also pretty passive, isn't it? And I love that about frequently saying it. And I think the other thing is to make sure that we're practicing our own emotional intelligence around reality testing. And I'll give you an example. Early in my career, I worked for a woman who became a very important mentor of mine. Her name was Anne. Sadly, she died fairly young. But when we were working together, I was a young mother, so was she. And I loved my job. And I got to travel all over the world, literally South Africa, Singapore. It was so exciting and so challenging. But after the birth of my second child, of which I went on and ended up with three children, I just. I hit a wall, and I was struggling to keep it together. And I approached her bravely and I asked if I could drop to part time. And I had worked it out, like how I thought it could work and everything. And she was really honest with me and also compassionate. She said, I understand. And I see you working really hard to make it all work. And I know it's really hard. I'm doing it myself. And also, I want to let you know that you can, first of all, you can drop down to part time, but one of the things that will mean is you probably won't be working on some of the same assignments you're on now, because I can't send you to Singapore for a day and a half. And so I know you love that work, and I just want to make sure you acknowledge the loss. And I was. That was hard to hear because what she was essentially saying felt to me like she was saying that my career would slow down. But that is what needed to happen. And to her credit, I did that. I dropped down to part time, I took less challenging assignments, the job became a little bit more boring and I was able to be present for my family in some ways that I needed. And over time I was able to work back up to full time and got back with more supports back onto that travel schedule that I found really fulfilling. And so I think that it's a conversation between the boss and the employee that also has to test what's real and allow us to know what that is so that we can make choices that work for us.

[A]

Again, such an important point. And I think one sometimes we forget like we think if we ask in the right way or make a compelling enough case, we'll just get everything that we want. And being open to. There are other perspectives or other sides of the story that we may not have thought through that somebody else may need to. And also I'm just going to call it this reality check of I think of our basic needs and especially as women, you know, wanted to get paid what we're doing worth and for our value. I believe in that wholeheartedly, obviously. But I also have yet to come across anybody, especially any woman who thinks they're being paid fairly. Like everybody always thinks they should be making more than what they do. And I think that there could be a measure of reality check there. I mentioned this because I saw a study, Allison Forgale posted it on LinkedIn and it was basically compared like positions, industries, things like that. And it was if somebody how they're paid and how they perceive they're paid. And basically the vast majority of women perceived that they were being underpaid even though small percent. It was a small percent, it should. You know, we want that to be bigger. But even the small percent who were being compensated fairly were or above their peers. They also thought they were being under compensated. And so obviously we have a lot of work to do, I think as it relates to the wage gap and pay equity. And yet there's still this opportunity as the employee for this reality check and to not always assume that we're getting not compensated. Well, reactions? Thoughts?

[B]

Yes, I love what you're saying there. And there's a paradox there too, right? Because the reality is that women are far less likely to name their pay concerns than men. Women are, I find, often rendered completely mute when it comes to pay conversation, which doesn't help, right. That where women often Sink more into passively feeling resentful that they're not being paid fairly rather than to have that conversation and to perhaps be willing to really look at it. And I also think, though, something, there's a subtlety to what you're saying is it's important when I think about my own thriving, to examine my pay in the context of the other ways in which this job is adding quality to my life.

[A]

Yes, we're compensated in so many ways.

[B]

Yes, totally. And can I balance, can I sink into that and be like, gosh, you know what? But I really love the team that I'm working with or really the flexibilities beautiful for my life right now, or I'm learning so much and I don't know where else I would get that. That, that is. It doesn't have the same dollar, dollar amount, but it really does matter. And sometimes it can help us if we're, if we do get feedback that says, hey, actually you are being paid fairly compared to other people to be able to say, okay then is this adequate for me right now as a trade off, and if not, what do I want to do about that?

[A]

Great advice you said earlier, and I agree completely that you can love your work and still have shit days. Right? Any advice good or at least better during some of those more challenging, stressful, overwhelming periods of work?

[B]

Take care of yourself. You know, there's a beautiful David Wilcox song that talks about how when there's a hole in the cup, we, we suffer. And I think it's so easy, especially if the job is demanding. Sometimes it's even worse if we love our job, right? To remember that if we are not well and if we are not grounded, our performance will suffer. And we have a model we use at Momentum called the Shelter model. And it just, each letter, it's an acronym, Each letter stands for some of the ways we have to take self care. And it's all the basic things. Sleep, breath, work, love, investing in our relationships, water, food, exercise and rest. Like that's what it takes to take care of ourselves. But if, if I'm really at risk of being overwhelmed or I'm burning out, that's an indicator to me to say, take exquisite care of me. What does exquisite care of me look like? Because it might be different than you. And to just pick one of those areas and say, all right, I'm going to try to get a little bit of traction in this one area. And it's not about shame and blame. Like most of us look at those things and we Go. Oh, God. I don't work. I didn't work out this week. I eat too much, I don't sleep, whatever. It's not about that. It's about, okay, which one thing would help me get more grounded to handle and process this stress I'm feeling right now at work? Because I think our instincts sometimes make us do the exact opposite, which is that we just keep grinding away and we don't metabolize that stress. We don't heal from that stress. And then we wonder why we are really hurting sometimes. And you see people leaving jobs and having to take a year to get their adrenal system back. You know, that's just not good for us.

[A]

Right? You said so many good things in there. But I want to highlight this concept of it's counterintuitive when you're in it. When you're in it, you. You feel like doing all the opposite of what you should be doing. I've even written down some things that give me energy or that make me feel good or some sort of go to things, because I know when I'm in it, my brain isn't going to come up with any of those things totally. And so it's just like kind of that reminder that I can look to of, you're feeling stressed, you're feeling overwhelmed. Here are some good choices, some healthy, productive choices right now.

[B]

And to schedule it in and to schedule in. One last thing I will add to that is women especially are given a lot of messaging that we are last. You know this. You talk about this on your podcast all the time, right? And so we've got to work on that mental model and say, actually, no, no, no, no. For me to be a high performer, for me make my dreams come true, I gotta be first because I'm the only one that can control how well I am. And that's really hard for many women who are enculturated to support others and put themselves last. So, sorry, just wanted to make sure.

[A]

That it is a challenging thing to reframe and rethink about. Right. My last question is around the future of work. And as you've indicated at the time of this recording, there's a lot of turmoil and unknowns. And so, generally speaking, what do you think the future of work really looks like? How do we make it good in the future?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do I dream of? You're asking, right? What do I dream of? I dream of workplaces that are communities where we get our needs met and we do things together that we can't do alone. I dream of a future of work where humanity is inexorably linked to productivity and results and where we, where it sits in a sanctified place as being so valuable in our lives. Work gives us so much meaning, but it doesn't incur the cost of toxic overwork. But it can be hard work. Right. Like for me, the future of work may include hard work. And hard work at times is just magical, isn't it? You know, so for me, when work is good, is. Is really, it comes back to what we started with. It's good for people because then those humans, each of us gets activated to bring forward our very best and to not leave our good stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Outside of the work environment. So that's what I dream of.

[A]

Well, that's a vision that I would run through a brick wall for. So thank you. Oh, I love it.

[B]

I love it. Let's do it.

[A]

I know people are going to want to learn more about you. So again, the website is momentum.com and there's a free offering on Mo's website. It's a people culture pulse check that's available if you want to check that out. Mo, thank you for joining us again.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me back. What an enlivened conversation. And yeah, let's get out that future vision.

[A]

I love it. All right, bringing this conversation full circle. The truth is your work should be good, should feel good, at least more often than it doesn't. Our work should challenge us, inspire us and give us opportunities to grow, not drain the will to live out of us. Yet somehow, too many companies are stuck in outdated models, prioritizing profit over people and forgetting that thriving employees create thriving businesses. We have power not just as leaders, but as employees, as entrepreneurs, as creators of our own careers. We can expect and design and contribute better. We can push back on cultures and our own internal beliefs that reward burnout and celebrate toxic productivity. And perhaps most importantly, we can redefine success in ways that allow us to enjoy the work we dedicate so much of our lives to. Because work should be good. It should support our ambitions without sacrificing our well being. It should be a place where we can bring our full and best selves, where our contributions matter and where we don't have to leave our humanity at the door. I firmly believe that creating workplaces where people thrive isn't just good business. It's the business of the future and making work work for us. Well, I say it's about damn time, because that is woman's work.

[B]

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