Podcast Summary

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil

Episode 356: Work Shouldn’t Suck – How to Make It Good with Moe Carrick
Date: October 27, 2025

Episode Overview

Nicole Kalil welcomes back workplace culture pioneer Moe Carrick to delve into the pressing question: “How do we make work good?” Building on their previous discussion about women and masculinity at work, this episode explores what it truly means for work to be positive and fulfilling. The conversation challenges outdated notions of “woman’s work,” diving into the practical, psychological, and cultural shifts needed to make workplaces authentic, human-centered, and rewarding for all.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Makes Work "Good"? (04:32–06:03)

• Moe Carrick’s Definition:
  • "When work is good, it's fit for human life." (Moe 04:49)
  • Work should enable us to thrive at home, in our communities, and as individuals.
  • We spend more time at work than any other single activity, so thriving there is crucial.
• Nicole’s Interjection:
  • “Yeah. You don’t want to like throw yourself out of a window, Right.” (Nicole 04:49)
  • They agree: Good work is about wanting to show up most days. It’s expected that there will be tough days, but overall, work shouldn’t drain our will to live.

2. The Seven Human Needs at Work (06:04–10:04)

• Carrick's Framework:

  • Moe references her “seven needs of work,” validated and echoed by research from the U.S. Surgeon General.
  • Main Needs Discussed:
    • Connection: Work is a primary source of community post-school. Loss of a job/retirement often means loss of this vital network.
    • Compensation: Must cover basic needs and feel fair. Once met, pay drops in motivational priority—"Pay is a terrible way to motivate people at work" (Moe 08:00).
    • Purpose/Contribution: Wanting work to matter. Not necessarily a grand mission—"I can find meaning in this thing and I have stories about that..." (Moe 08:46).
    • Learning & Growth: Work enables continual development.
    • Being Seen/Known: Having someone know your name and story.
    • Safety: Encompasses physical and psychological safety; essential for creativity and innovation.

• Nicole Adds:

  • “So to be able to be your authentic self... not expend so much energy trying to fit in.” (Nicole 10:04)
  • The struggle to assimilate drains energy and stifles authenticity and contribution, especially for women and minorities.

3. Why Do Workplaces Go Wrong? (12:13–16:12)

• Profit as the Only Metric:
  • “When profit is the only thing that we measure that matters, then a lot of other stuff is at risk of becoming toxic.” (Moe 12:59)
  • Moe asserts she supports profit—but when it trumps all else, humanity suffers.
• Profit vs. People:
  • Nicole counters: Employee thriving leads to profit—it’s not a zero-sum game.
• The Challenge of Proving ROI:
  • Hard to quantify returns on culture or leadership investment vs. machinery—“You cannot control people. They have brains and hearts, they bring them to work.” (Moe 15:13)
  • Leaders often default to what’s measurable, leaving the complex “people equation” under-addressed.
• Leadership Is Hard:
  • Both Nicole and Moe concede—“You’re confronted with yourself very often where you’re like, oh, I didn’t do that so good.” (Nicole 16:12)
  • Leadership requires vulnerability, relentless effort, and ongoing self-reflection.

4. The Role of Leaders and Employees (16:56–19:45)

• Modeling Behavior:
  • Leaders must “set the tone ... be in the game ... willing to be human and imperfect.” (Moe 18:15)
  • Outdated hero narratives hurt workplaces.
• Employee Responsibility:
  • Employees shouldn’t act as victims—“If we only put it on the employer, we're acting like a victim. And I think that's always dangerous.” (Moe 17:08)
  • Most employment is still a choice with trade-offs, despite turmoil and political fear.
• Mutual Expectations:
  • Nicole: Employees also pedestal leaders, setting up disappointment.

5. What Can Employees Do? (21:51–29:44)

• Recognize Choice & Trade-Offs:
  • Even if it doesn’t always feel like it, most jobs involve choices and trade-offs; acknowledging them brings empowerment.
  • Moe’s personal story: Taking a less fulfilling job for location and resume experience.
• Self-Awareness:
  • Knowing one’s “conditions for thriving” is foundational. Moe shares her own failed dream of journalism as a lesson in self-knowledge.
• Communication & Asking for What You Need:
  • Nicole: “People are mind readers and they’re just supposed to know, as opposed to, no, we have to tell them.” (Nicole 24:57)
  • Moe: Employees often need “frequent, reality-tested” conversations with superiors about their needs and the trade-offs entailed.

6. Compensation, Reality Checks & The Bigger Picture (28:00–31:06)

• The Wage Gap and Perception:
  • Nicole cites a study showing women overwhelmingly feel underpaid, even if evidence says otherwise.
• Moe’s Paradox:
  • Women are less likely to voice pay concerns, often simmering in passive resentment.
  • “It's important... to examine my pay in the context of the other ways in which this job is adding quality to my life.” (Moe 30:01)
  • Factors like flexibility, team culture, and learning also compensate us, albeit less tangibly.

7. Navigating Bad Days & Preventing Burnout (31:26–34:15)

• Self-Care as Survival:
  • Moe: "If I’m really at risk of being overwhelmed or I’m burning out, that’s an indicator to me to say, take exquisite care of me." (Moe 31:43)
  • The Shelter Model: Sleep, breathing, relationships, water, food, exercise, rest.
  • Nicole: “When you’re in it, you feel like doing all the opposite of what you should be doing.” (Nicole 33:06)
• Women and Prioritization:
  • Moe: Women are conditioned to put themselves last—"I gotta be first because I'm the only one that can control how well I am." (Moe 34:07)

8. The Future of Work (34:39–35:44)

• Moe’s Vision:
  • "I dream of workplaces that are communities where we get our needs met and we do things together that we can’t do alone." (Moe 34:41)
  • Humanity and productivity are inseparable; work remains challenging but is meaningful, never toxic.
• Nicole’s Rallying Cry:
  • "Work should be good. It should support our ambitions without sacrificing our wellbeing... It should be a place where we can bring our full and best selves, where our contributions matter and where we don’t have to leave our humanity at the door." (Nicole 36:13)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “When work is good, it's fit for human life.” — Moe Carrick (04:49)
• “Pay is a terrible way to motivate people at work.” — Moe Carrick (08:00)
• “Connection is a basic human need like food, water, shelter, safety and security, and work is one of the primary ways we get connection.” — Moe Carrick (06:52)
• “We have to be able to walk the talk... set the tone... be in the game... willing to be human and imperfect.” — Moe Carrick (18:15)
• “Women are far less likely to name their pay concerns than men ... [they] sink more into passively feeling resentful.” — Moe Carrick (29:44)
• “When I’m really at risk of being overwhelmed... that’s an indicator to me to say, take exquisite care of me.” — Moe Carrick (31:43)
• “For me to be a high performer, ... I gotta be first because I'm the only one that can control how well I am.” — Moe Carrick (34:07)
• “Work gives us so much meaning, but it doesn’t incur the cost of toxic overwork. But it can be hard work, right, like for me, the future of work may include hard work. And hard work at times is just magical, isn't it?” — Moe Carrick (34:41)
• “Work should be good… not drain the will to live out of us.” — Nicole Kalil (36:13)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• What is “good work”? – 04:32
• Seven human needs at work – 06:04
• Why it goes wrong: Profit vs. Humanity – 12:13
• The challenge of leadership – 16:06
• Role of leaders vs. pedestal syndrome – 16:56
• Employee agency and self-awareness – 21:51
• Communication about needs & real trade-offs – 24:57
• Compensation, perception, and context – 28:00
• Self-care and preventing burnout – 31:26
• The future of good work – 34:39
• Final rallying call – 36:13

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a nuanced yet practical framework for anyone who wants their work—or their teams and companies—to be more than just a grind for a paycheck. Moe Carrick and Nicole Kalil emphasize that thriving at work is not only possible but essential for personal and organizational success. They encourage leaders and employees alike to embrace complexity, communicate needs, focus on holistic well-being, and build a new work culture—one where profit and humanity are allies, not adversaries.

Resources:

• Learn more about Moe Carrick and complete her free People Culture Pulse Check at Momentum.com
• For related past episodes, check the show notes.