You Won’t Just Cry When They Die with Liz Deacle | 404

Summary

Podcast Summary: This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
Episode 404: You Won’t Just Cry When They Die with Liz Deacle
Date: April 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this powerful and deeply honest episode, Nicole Kalil welcomes back writer, traveler, and podcast host Liz Deacle to discuss the true nature of grief. Drawing from her personal journey after losing both her parents, Liz joins Nicole for an unvarnished conversation about what grief really feels like, how it changes you, and why the process can never be neatly packaged or rushed. Together, they challenge platitudes around loss and the idea that "moving on" is the standard of strength, instead highlighting the paradoxes, the pain, and even the unexpected moments of humor in the grieving process. This is a vulnerable, compassionate discussion meant for anyone touched by loss—whether personally grieving or supporting someone who is walking that path.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Grief Is Not What We Think

• Expectations vs. Reality
  Liz thought grief would be about sadness and tears, but discovered it's profoundly more disruptive—impacting identity and sense of self.

  "What we don't know about grief is the way it hits you so hard like a sledgehammer, you can't possibly see it coming. It rips open and reaches inside and pulls everything out and puts it on the floor and goes, 'There you go. Who are you now then?'"
  – Liz Deacle, [06:52]

2. The Non-Linear Path of Healing

• Healing isn’t a straight line; some days are better, some are far worse.
• Progress is not measured by less crying or being “strong,” but by gradual, unpredictable shifts in emotion and capacity.

  "There are days where you think, oh, I haven't cried today. Or I didn't cry till 3 o'clock today. That's good. I've made progress... And then there are days that you just sit and just sob and that's fine too."
  – Liz Deacle, [09:18]

3. Complex Relationships, Complex Grief

• Grief isn’t proportional only to closeness or affection.
• Even difficult familial relationships (as Liz had with her father) leave a void and identity shift after loss.

  "When you lose someone, you lose a part of you that you've known all your life... I miss the woman I was that had a dad that was awkward and hard to communicate with because I don't have that anymore."
  – Liz Deacle, [11:39]

4. Redefining Strength and Pride

• Liz found strength not in emotional stoicism, but in presence for her family, especially in comforting her daughter through their shared loss.

  "Being able to hold her and say, 'I'm here for you.' And that was a moment that I thought, oh, Liz, well done... It was a real moment."
  – Liz Deacle, [14:38]

5. Is Grief Better Shared?

• Absolutely—reaching out, asking for help, and admitting struggle not only helps the griever but also dismantles cultural expectations about “moving on.”

  "The other thing that's better shared is when you put your hand up and you say, 'I am really fucking struggling. I need help. I'm not doing okay.' That is what helps. That's what we should be doing more of."
  – Liz Deacle, [15:52]

6. Supporting Others Who Are Grieving

• Small, ongoing gestures matter—acknowledgement over the “right words.”
• A heart emoji, a one-line response, a simple check-in—these mean more than platitudes.

  "Just someone acknowledging you... A heart message of 'I wish I had the answers for you...' is enough. It really is."
  – Liz Deacle, [18:45]

7. What NOT to Say

• Avoid platitudes like “look on the bright side” or "it's been a year, you must be feeling better"—these are unhelpful and can be hurtful.

  "When people say, 'Think of all the good things you've got in your life, look around you and appreciate what you have now'—that one hurts."
  – Liz Deacle, [23:11]

8. The Identity Shift of Grief

• Grief changes your role and identity; you’re no longer the person you were when your loved one was alive.
• Healing isn’t about returning to your old self, but evolving into a new version, thread by thread.

  "No one tells you that you are not gonna be the same person. She's gone. You're not a daughter anymore. So now what?"
  – Liz Deacle, [25:35]

9. Permission for the Full Spectrum

• Humor, guilt, and sorrow can co-exist.
• Liz describes slowly stitching herself back together and allowing all emotions, including the guilt of laughing or the urge to be funny again.

10. How to Sit with Someone in Grief

• The best support is presence: listening, bearing witness, and offering silent comfort.

  "Ask yourself this question: Is this a help me conversation, a hear me, or a hold me conversation? When people are grieving... it is always either a hear me or a hold me."
  – Liz Deacle, [30:12]

11. The Relationship Isn’t Over

• Continuing to “talk” to lost loved ones and nurturing that ongoing spiritual bond is comforting and normal.

  "Personally, I never, ever stop speaking to my mum, ever. She speaks to me all the time... She's like this goddess now. She knows all the answers now."
  – Liz Deacle, [32:25]

• For grievers, hearing from someone that their loved one is still “with them” can be deeply reassuring.

12. Rethinking the Concept of Healing

• Healing is not about returning to who you were, but about "shedding, releasing, letting happen without shame, without guilt, without embarrassment."
• Being gentle and patient with oneself is vital.

  "If you wait for that healing [meaning being who you were], you'll never find it... It's about letting it happen. Everything that you're doing is one step closer to your feeling that breath out."
  – Liz Deacle, [36:01]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Who are you now then?" — Liz, summarizing how grief rips apart identity. [06:52]
• "I miss the woman I was that had a dad that was awkward and hard to communicate with because I don't have that anymore." – Liz [11:39]
• "Grief is universal. But it's also individual. It feels like a paradox." – Nicole [10:05]
• "I'm here for you." – Liz, describing her proudest moment comforting her daughter. [14:38]
• "A heart message... is enough. It really is." – Liz, on gestures of support. [18:45]
• "She's like this goddess now. She knows all the answers now." – Liz, on her ongoing relationship with her mom. [32:25]
• "Healing isn't getting back to who you were before they died. It's shedding, releasing, letting happen without shame or guilt." – Liz [36:01]
• “You don’t just cry when they die. You fall apart, and then blindly, achingly stitch yourself back together, thread by thread.” – Nicole, closing [40:06]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00-05:45 – Intro, advertisements, and episode framing (skip)
• 05:45 – Nicole frames the conversation: The messy, honest truth about grief
• 06:31 – Liz on her true experience of grief: the sledgehammer and identity shifts
• 08:35 – Non-linearity of grief, the myth of progress
• 11:16 – How relationships (close or complex) affect grief
• 14:02 – Liz’s proudest moment: comforting her daughter
• 15:48 – Is grief better shared?
• 18:03 – How to support the grieving in everyday life
• 22:53 – What not to say to someone grieving
• 25:33 – Reconstructing identity after loss
• 27:58 – Guilt about changing, laughing, or healing
• 29:48 – How to sit with someone in their grief
• 32:23 – The ongoing relationship with lost loved ones
• 35:44 – Rethinking healing and moving forward after loss
• 37:50 – One foot in front of the other; final reflections

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Episode Takeaways

• Grief can break apart your sense of self, not just your heart.
• The process never follows a straight line, and there's no timeline for "moving on."
• Support in grief is about simple acknowledgment and ongoing presence, not big gestures or perfect words.
• Healing is less about “getting over it” and more about learning how to stitch a new self together, with patience, honesty, and acceptance of all emotions.
• The relationships with loved ones can continue past death in unique, nurturing ways.

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Resources

• Liz Deacle’s book: You Won’t Just Cry When They Die (available on Amazon and as an audiobook)
• Website: ElizabethDiecal.com
• Liz’s podcast: It’s a Drama
• For more on grief from a public figure: Nora McInerney

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Final Thought:
Grief doesn’t have a manual and doesn’t need to be pretty. It is not a project with a deadline. The journey is about living honestly with what is left and slowly, gently, stitching yourself together. As Nicole concludes: "Maybe the work is to gently, imperfectly and honestly live as the version of you that is still unfolding."

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Transcript

[A]

Friend. I'm about to do something I've never done before but have been dreaming about for so long that I can't even remember it not being on my bucket list. I'm taking a three month sabbatical and traveling all across Europe. Different countries, different people joining me at different times. Some solo travel, which sounds dreamy, but it also felt logistically overwhelming. Except it hasn't been because I've used Fora to book pretty much all of it. Hotels, trains, flights, experiences, food, tours, you know, all the really important things that can make or a trip. And Fora and my amazing Fora Advisor made it so I've actually enjoyed the planning part. Fora is a modern travel agency built for people who love to plan travel and help others travel well. Their tech, platform, training and community give you everything you need to turn a passion for travel planning into a flexible, meaningful stream of income. 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More now without weeks of recruiting or training a full time hire, you can browse profiles and find specialized talent across over 125 categories. You can review past work and get help scoping the role so you can hire with confidence and get started quickly. It's free to sign up and posting a job is easy. Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's upwork.com upwork.com if you love the show. The best way to keep it going is simple. Share it, rate it, and support the sponsors who support us. I am Nicole Khalil and you are listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. And today we're talking about something every single one of us will experience and none of us could ever actually be prepared for. And that's grief. Not the neat, palatable version. Not the version where you cry, take some time, process, heal, and move on. Not the version that's all about casseroles and take your time platitudes. Because that version, it's a lie. Or at the very least, it's not the complete truth. On this episode, we're talking about the real version, the kind of grief that doesn't just break your heart. It's the kind that acknowledges that you don't just lose someone you love, you lose the version of you that existed when they were here. For something that every single one of us will go through. We are wildly unprepared for how disorienting, physical and all consuming it actually can be. So I'm not going to pretend to know a lot about grief. I don't. But I do know someone who has had to live it and who has been willing to write and share in a way that is honest, raw, and somehow still sometimes funny. That somehow makes you feel less alone. Our guest writes emails that have made me laugh so hard that I've literally snorted coffee out of my nose. She co hosts the podcast. It's a drama with her husband, Brian, who I feel like I know well enough to call Bri, even though I have never met or talked to him, where they talk about travel and family and life. And somewhere along the way, I've become fully convinced that she and I should live down the street from each other so that we can sit on the porch in stretchy pants, drink coffee or something stronger and laugh until we pee. Because if you're not leaking urine, are you really having any fun? But since she lives all the way across the world, I've settled over time for waiting on and devouring every email she's sent. And she sent a lot of them. And then her mom died, and then just months later, her dad died and everything shifted naturally. Her emails stopped for a while, and when they come now, they're different. Still her, still honest, still real. But now, instead of laughing until I cry, I I sometimes cry and then laugh. We're talking about the kind of sharing that doesn't try to clean things up or make them comfortable for everyone else, because that's what we tend to do with grief. We rush it, we label it, we try to fix it. Or worse, we expect people to heal on some invisible timeline. Like grief is a project with a deadline. So today we're not doing any of that. We're not tidying this up. We're not rushing through it. We're not pretending that there's a right way to grieve or a clean way to come out the other side. We're telling the truth, and we're doing it with somebody who I adore. Liz Dekel is the author of you Won't Just Cry When They Die, a book she wrote after losing both of her parents, where she discovered that grief doesn't just break your heart, it pulls apart your body, your identity, and your sense of self. She lives in New Zealand and is currently traveling full time with her family on a healing journey, asking the question that so many of us will eventually face. What comes next? Liz, welcome back to the show. And let's start with some of that real stuff. What might we know or expect about grief, and where? Do we have absolutely no idea?

[B]

Well, first of all, Nicole, we said off camera before we started, okay, we'll try not to cry. And then as you were talking there, I just thought, don't cry, Liz. Don't cry. I can feel it. I can feel those tears welling up. Oh, thank you for such a beautiful, beautiful intro. And it's an honor to be a guest sitting opposite you here on your show. My answer to what do we know about grief? We know that you're gonna get sad, you're gonna really miss them, and you're gonna cry. And that was speaking from my own experience. That's what I expected would happen. I thought, I'm going to get really sad. I'm going to. There's going to be lots of tears. What we don't know about grief is the way hits you so hard like a sledgehammer, you can't possibly see it coming. And the thing that I didn't know about grief is how it changes you, how rips open and reaches inside and pulls everything out and puts it on the floor and goes. There you go. Who are you now then? Who are you now? And that's what I didn't expect from grief. I didn't know that that existed. And that's why I want to share this message to make other women know that that is completely normal when that happens.

[A]

I think one of the things that we often do that is such a disservice to ourselves and to the people that we love that are grieving is we think that there's this linear process, right? That every day is going to get just a little bit better. And from what I've heard, that is not how it works. Some days are better and some days are way worse than even before and you never know. And it's unexpected. Is that true or do you feel like you are making some sort of progress isn't the right word, but like that you're moving forward in some way.

[B]

Again, it's the confusing thing because we are told online, you know, that when you Google it, and I did, the minute my mum died and I fell apart, I was like, what? What the hell is this? Who am I? What? Why can't I function? And I googled, how long does grief last? And I really thought, like you said it was gonna be a. Well, by week one, you'll probably be crying a little bit less and then by month two, you'll feel like this and it just wasn't. And again, I want to be very respectful here because grief is such a personal thing. It's very, very personal and unique to the person that's experiencing it. And everyone will feel it differently, they will cope differently, they will handle it differently. But the thing I've discovered since writing the book and just talking to other people who are grieving is that underlying feeling of loss and hurt and despair is universal. It's the same all over. How you cope with that is your journey in answer to your. Does it get better? Yes, it does. There are days where you think, oh, oh, I haven't cried today. Or I didn't cry till 3 o' clock today. That's good. I've made progress. I can talk to Nicole and I didn't cry when she was saying all that. Intro. I must be getting better. I'm getting stronger. That's good. And then there are days that you just sit and just sob and that's fine too.

[A]

You said something that I think is so important there. Grief is universal. It's also individual. It feels like a paradox, right? If. If it's individual, are we all going to experience it the same? But then when you talk to people who experience grief, there are definitely commonalities. My question, because you lost both of your parents, is I think sometimes we think grief is in direct relationship to how much we loved or cared or Liked the person that we're grieving. I know you were exceptionally close with your mom. Again, this is a personal thing. I'm not sure you can answer it, but if we had difficult or complex relationships, do you still think grief is the same? We have these different relationships, this different level of love and care. And yet I know people who have lost parents that they didn't talk to or they weren't particularly close with. And they've talked about how grief still felt like that sledgehammer, and it still caught them off guard and they still struggled way more than they ever thought they would. I guess my question is, how does it differ? Does it.

[B]

That's a really good question. And yes, it. It does differ. I'll give you a personal example that I was very, very, very close to my mum. She lived just down the road. She was 19 years older than me. We were best friends. She was. She was my world. My dad left when I was 18. I still loved him, but we had a very diffic. Um. He had his own problems. He was. He. He drank. He. There was things going on there. However, I still loved him. He was my father. My answer to your question is I miss being scared about my dad. I miss not wanting to call him because I'm scared of what he'll say to me. I miss when you lose someone, you lose a part of you that you've known all your life. All I've ever known is, oh, should I give my dad a ring? Or will he have had a drink like you? Shall I go and see my dad? I'm in England. I should go and see my dad. You know, that's not there anymore. It's not there anymore. So, of course, talking from my mum's point of view, I miss her. I miss my mum. But my dad, who I did have a very difficult relationship with, who I would go for years without speaking to, I miss those questions. I miss the woman I was that was. Had a dad that was awkward and hard to communicate with because I don't have that anymore. You don't have that anymore. And yeah, I don't know the answer, but I do know that it goes back to this feeling of you are a different person, they're not in your life anymore. You're not who you were two years ago or a year ago or six months ago. You're just not. And that also is put on your shoulders of like, well, if I'm not that woman then, and I don't feel like that anymore now, now what do I do? Who Am I?

[A]

Now then, looking back on your journey so far, where have you felt the strongest or the proudest? And I asked the question because I think we think being strong is shoving it down, setting it aside, not talking about it. Moving on. I'm gonna put that in air quotes. Moving on. I think that's what we often associate being strong with. My guess, though, is as somebody who's been living with grief for, you know, well over a year now, that there might be other experiences or times where you look back and that felt like strength or that made you proud of a choice that you made or an action that you took or that you didn't. Right. So based on your experience, where have you felt strong? Where have you felt proud?

[B]

Well, for a start, I feel proud of myself for coming on this podcast with you and not sitting here bawling. Right. I'm still. I'm still through it. I haven't cried yet. So I'm proud of that because I really thought that I would just fall apart. So I'm proud of myself for being able to talk to you and I thank you for that. I mean, my mum died two years in April, you know, and this only happened a couple of weeks ago. We're in Canada as a family. I was walking with my daughter, she's 21, and she started talking about my mum, her grandma, and she fell apart. And she said, I'm sorry for crying. I don't want to upset you. And I had this inner strength and I don't know where it came from. It was no doubt time and. But seeing. Putting it onto her and seeing her hurt and her grief and being able to hold her and say, I'm here for you. And I thought, who was saying this? Who am I there for? How I haven't been there for anyone for the last 18 months. And all of a sudden, seeing her, her vulnerability, I miss my grandma. And being able to say, I'm here for you. And that was a moment that I thought, oh, Liz, well done. Well done for not standing there and saying, yeah, but I've lost my mum and I'm really crying and I'm, you know, well done. And yeah, it was. It was a moment, Nicole. It was a real moment.

[A]

Is grief better shared as in that experience, or. And I have to imagine there are times where you want to tell everyone to fuck off. And then, you know, feeling connected, wanting to feel disconnected, like, I have to imagine there's no one right answer. But is grief better shared?

[B]

Yes, 100%. And the other thing that's better shared is when you put your hand up and you say, I am really fucking struggling. I need help. I'm not doing okay. That is what helps. That's what we should be doing more of because again, we have this thing of it's been three months now. You know, it's been six months. It's been a year now. Come on, you know what? See the good things in life, look what you've got. It's all that that is put on top of you. And yeah, being able to share and say, no, I'm not. I'm not doing okay.

[A]

I've heard this from several people now. I kind of get it. And it also hurts my heart so much. I even did it in our conversation already is when you care about somebody who's grieving, you want to be there. You want to say the right things, you want to support. You want them to know that they're loved and that you're there if they need you. And at the same time, if you're not the person grieving, life does move on. And I have to imagine for the person grieving, it's like, how, like, how are people moving on with their lives? So I have several questions in there, but my first one is how do we best continue to be there and support people who are grieving when our life does move on? So the example is I said, you know, it's been over a year, and the reality is it's been two years. And I've thought of you so often. I read your emails. I've reached out to let you know that I'm thinking of you and my life moved on. And what has been, I'm sure a very clear timeline on your part hasn't on mine, because I was in my life. Right. And so how do we continue to show up and be there when people need us without putting a timeline or get over it or anything on them, while also acknowledging that we are living our lives and life is continuing on even though the person grieving can't wrap their head around that. Is my question making any sense at all?

[B]

It's making. It's making a lot of sense. And as someone who has been through a major loss, I still feel when I meet people who say, oh, I lost someone a couple of months ago, I still feel almost awkward. I feel like I know what they want to hear. I know what I should say, but I feel awkward saying it. And I think that's because as a society, we just don't do it. We don't talk about it, we're like, oh, you know, my condolences, my deepest sympathies. You don't wanna say the wrong thing, but. And I want to thank you. I want to thank you. You are perfect. You are absolutely perfect. You sent replies to my emails. One line sometimes it was like, oh, that's beautiful. You don't know what that meant, you know? And when I first lost my mum, I had a friend in New Zealand, I've still got a friend in New Zealand. And she would send me every other day a heart. You know, like a red emoji heart in a messenger. No, no words, no nothing, just this heart. And it kept going. She kept going with it for about a year. And I was thinking, what a fantastic. And I'm not saying everyone needs to do this, but I think the simple things, just someone acknowledging you, I mean, of course, my hero, my person who got me through this was my husband, Brian. And that was by listening, just being there, just, just listening. You don't have to say anything. A heart message of, I wish I had the answers for you, but I'm going, you know, I'm still, I feel the same as you. I'm like, well, I know how it feels, but it's hard to know what to say to someone. So I think just being there, letting know that person you're there, know you're there, is enough. It really is.

[A]

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[A]

On that note, are there wrong things to say? You know, we're filled with platitudes and things that, you know, we sort of fall back on without thinking. Were there any things that people said that you just were like take it and shove it up your ass? I'm not interested in yeah, you know, and I know people's intentions are wonderful, but are there any things that we should avoid based on your experiences? Yes.

[B]

Yeah. And again, people. What what you've got to remember I wrote about this in the book. What you've got to remember when I tell you this is they're not saying it to hurt you. They're not saying it to be a clever ass. They're saying it because they don't know what else to say and they think this will help you. So first of all, a caveat to anyone who's ever said this to me or anyone that ever says it to anyone that's grieving. We know that you're coming from a place of kindness. This was never meant to be. But when people say, think of all the good things you've got in your life, look around you and appreciate what you have now, like, you know what, that one hurts. Because do you not think that we think every single day, thank God I've got a daughter, thank God my son is. Thank God I'm married to this man, thank God I've got. Of course we think that every single minute of the day. And not only that, we dread losing those people. That's the other thing that no one tells you about grief. If you go through a very quick losing someone quickly, as in with my mum, six months, she was having a haircut, phoning me, I've had this new haircut, six months later, she's gone. When you go through something like that, all of a sudden you start to look at everyone else around you and think, when are they gonna die? Please don't leave me, please don't. What's the matter? Why are you coughing like that? Why are you breathing like that? What's the matter? You know, are you. Are you ill? It's horrible. It's absolutely horrible. So we're always thinking, thank God we've got these people in our life. And the other thing is, I don't actually think anyone has said this to me. I've heard other people say it, but it's almost like it's been a year now. You know, it's been a year now. You must be feeling better.

[A]

Yeah. I will reiterate what you said is I do think most people are well intentioned and I can speak for myself. I want to be helpful and I know that there isn't anything that I can say that will eliminate or lessen the grief. And in the desire to be helpful, I would want somebody to say that is not helpful or move on with something else or what? You know what I mean? Like, it's hard to know. Okay, so you have said in the book and here today, that grief basically takes the person that you were and dismantles and changes it. And part of it is finding out who you are now. Any how to do that? How do we begin to put the pieces back together to form something different? We can't put the pieces back together to reform who we were before we lost this person. So how do we do that?

[B]

And I Just want to add to that as well, because something you said in the intro. Liz used to write funny emails. And, you know, now she writes sad emails that sometimes make me laugh. That's another thing that no one tells you about grief is. And again, as a woman, we feel it so openly because we're used to having to go through this change. But no one tells you that you are not gonna be the same person. She's gone. She's left, she's gone. That was actually a daughter, and you're not a daughter anymore. So now what? And I listen to your podcast all the time. And I listen to one particular podcast that a lady talked about, spiritual nurturing. Some spiritual health she talked about. And as she was talking, that podcast helped me so much because I thought the only way we can get through this, the only way we can move forward and rebuild who we are now, is to trust and to listen to our inner self. Because inside of us is all the answers. There are no books and podcasts and all the things that are gonna give us the answer to how we can be, who are going to be in the next stage of life, that comes from deep, deep, deep inside. The choices we make, the. Like your guests said, the hunches we have. And I think. I think that is my personal experience is I'm trying to listen. Get really quiet and listen and trust. And if you don't feel like you have to write a funny email or be funny or be strong, that's fine.

[A]

I will say I believe you completely. And I've experienced in your emails like you're still in there.

[B]

I hope so.

[A]

Yeah. No, so I completely understand that you're sewing yourself back together thread by thread. And I value so much the. Listen to yourself, trust your inner knowing. You know, I think that is our greatest challenge of life. And it's interesting, you know, outside looking in, it changes you, and you're still fundamentally who you are. And that feels like a really weird paradox.

[B]

The other thing as well, just one more thing that comes into it is guilt. Guilt. You can't be funny. Don't you dare write anything funny. You've just lost both your parents. That's disrespectful. Don't do that. You've got this going on in the side of your. In the side of your mind. And again, it's about letting that happen, letting that voice happen, letting it disperse, letting it come and be, and then gently thinking, hang on a minute. No, I can. I can do this. And it's trust, isn't it? It's. I hope that I know I'm never going to be the same. We're never going to be the same, are we? Just, like, we're never the same woman. We are before we give birth. We're never that. You know, we evolve and we layer and we're different. And I'm hoping that that's what's gonna happen when I. Maybe one day I will sit here and think, look who I am now, Nicole. You know, I'm this and. But right now it just feels like little threads are being layered back on. Like, oh, I can do that. Oh, I can laugh about that. Oh, no, hang on a minute. Take that thread back off. No, no, that doesn't feel nice. Okay, now put this one back on. How does that feel? Does that feel okay? It feels like that. It literally feels. I know it sounds corny, but it feels like you are threading yourself back together into this new version.

[A]

Yeah, okay. What is it mean to sit with somebody in their grief and in their pain? I don't know that we do that very well as a society. I don't know that we allow or hold space or sit with. We tend to want to fill silence. We tend to want to fix, speed up. How do we sit with people in their grief?

[B]

You know, those people that I've witnessed throughout this journey so far that are incredibly good at that. Again, your fellow guest said, a trail angel. And I thought, oh, it's like a grief angel. It's someone who knows. They just know what energy to give you, what to do. I don't think I'm the right person to ask for that because I don't think I'm very good at it. I'm too consumed in my own. My own hurting that I daren't talk about it because, oh, no, that will make me cry. So maybe I'm not. I don't think I'm the right person to ask, but, like looking from here, from where I sit now, and looking at how people are, they are people that just listen, they don't give answers. I remember. I remember listening to this podcast years ago, and it said about the art of a conversation. And they said, when you listen to someone having a conversation with you, ask yourself this question, Is this a help me conversation? Is this a hear me conversation, or is this a hold me conversation? And when people are in there grieving that deep grief, it is always either a hear me or a hold me. They don't need help, they don't need answers. They don't need you to Say, oh, it's going to be okay. You'll get through it. They don't need that. We don't need that. We just need to have someone listen and hear us. And if you're really, really lucky, hold you.

[A]

Yeah, great answer. Sorry. I read something earlier today. Ironically, the universe, there's no accidents. It came across my desk from Nora McInerney, who has lost her husband, and she said something to the effect of death isn't the end of a relationship. And what she's talking about, something called wind phones, where you can go to a phone and basically leave a message for somebody who's passed, and it. It goes out to the wind. Right. So they can hear it. But my question is around this idea that it isn't the end of a relationship. I would venture a guess you still talk to your mom all the time and probably listen for her, too. So share with us a little bit about that. I have to imagine that provides some comfort, but I also have to imagine that can be really, really painful at times, too. How do you carry forward the relationship? Do you. Does it help? Does it hurt? What are you finding?

[B]

I love Nora, by the way. She. She is one of those trail angels that are out there that flying the flag for this. She's fantastic. Personally, I never, ever stop speaking to my mum, ever. She speaks to me all the time. I can hear her voice all the time. And she's always right. You know, she never was right in real life. It was like, I always argue with, no, mum. You don't know what you're talking about. But for some reason now, this dead version of my mum is like this massive angel that's always right and speaks to me. It's fantastic. Yeah, Nicole, it's whatever helps you. It's whatever helps you. Personally, I haven't yet been brave enough to go through, like my brother said to me, oh, do you ever read mum's messages? Have you ever gone back through messenger? It's like, no way can I do that. I can't do it. I can't look at that. I can't do that. But what I can do is nurture this relationship. And, like, I'm not actually joking when I say she's like this goddess now. It's like this. She knows all the answers now. Whether that's mum speaking or whether that's me or the universe or God, I don't know. It's. But that is such a help. It is such a help. And to trust that as well and not think I'm crazy. I'm schizophrenic. What's wrong with me? What am I doing in this room? Talking to my mum, crying to my mum. What am I doing? No, that's normal. That is absolutely normal. And it is so, so helpful. And it's. As a woman, it's. I can feel her. I can feel her going, come on, you know this. You've got this. You know you can do this. I can feel it, Nicole. And it's. It's it that feels magical for someone who, right now, if you're listening to this and you have just lost, Just lost someone, like, literally just lost someone, please know that that is one of the beautiful things that comes out of this. This feeling of, I am not alone. I am. I've got them. I've got her. She's right here in me. She's in my blood. I've got her. She's never gonna leave. It's a very, very, very, very special thing to be able to draw on in times of need.

[A]

I will also add, it provides some peace for me, I'm sure, as many moms do. I've said to jj, you know, I'll always be with you, and I genuinely mean that. And knowing based on your experience that that gets to be true is very cool. So thank you. You said you were going to cry. Now I'm crying. Okay, my last question is around the word healing, I think, again, grief often gets talked about as if there is a time where it ends, you know, the healing journey is over. And it's thrown around pretty loosely, I think. So what would you say to the person who is listening going, I'm not healing fast enough. I'm not healing right. What is healing supposed to look like? Who's googling? How long does grief last? What would you say to them? And how can we be more gentle with ourselves and each other in the process?

[B]

Healing. To me, I believed that healing meant getting back to who you were before your mom and dad died, getting back to the person you were. You know, they're not here anymore, but you're all right, you're okay, you're back to who you were. I thought that's what healing meant. If you wait for that healing, you'll never find it. And I think acknowledging that as soon as possible really, really helps. I think every single tear you cry, every conversation, every word that you write, every this, every this that happens helps you on your healing journey. It is like, I don't think healing is giving. I think it is shedding. I think it is releasing I think it is letting happen without shame, without guilt, without embarrassment, that is healing. It's accepting that like that with my daughter, being able to put my arms around her and say, I'm here for you, that's also healing. It's exactly like you said. It's being so gentle with yourself. So, so gentle and so patient and so kind. And I know that we hear that a lot in this circle about be kind to yourself. Love your. It doesn't mean that. It just means let it, let it, let it happen. Everything that you're doing is one step closer to your feeling that breath out. And I made it. I made it through today without this. I made it. I was able to sign up for this podcast. I was able to write this book. I was able to put my arms around my daughter. It's one step along the line of maybe this new life without them. But, yeah, I think it is a

[A]

different version of what I tell myself that life is ultimately about, which is one foot in front of the other toward what matters most. And as you grow and grieve, what matters most may change or evolve. But society and the world wants to tell us about big leaps and timelines. And in my experience, everything is always just one foot in front of the other, even the smallest step. So, Liz, thank you for being here today, for sharing your grief with us, and for writing this book. Listener, if you're looking for some support, something to feel helped or held or heard, I would encourage you to get the book, you Won't Just Cry When They Die. It's available on Amazon or you can go to ElizabethDiekel.com where she has the audiobook as well. We're going to put the links of all the ways to find and follow Liz in show notes, including It's a Drama, her podcast. And please be sure to do that. I will tell you, over the years that I have been connected with Liz. It has been a wonderful bright spot, but then also where I felt the most connected and heard to somebody I've never even met before. So, Liz, thank you. I adore you.

[B]

Thank you, thank you. Nicole, thank you so much. And likewise, thank you for what you're doing in this world. Thank you for being the woman you are and thank you for having me on this show.

[A]

Always my pleasure. All right, friend. Grief doesn't ask you for permission. It doesn't follow a timeline. It does not care how strong, capable, or put together you are. It will take what it takes and it will change you. But maybe the goal was never to go back to who you were before. Maybe the work is to gently, imperfectly and honestly live as the version of you that is still unfolding. Not rushed, not fixed, not healed. Just real. So if you're in it right now, the fog, the anger, the exhaustion, the moments that make absolutely no sense, friend, there is nothing about it that is wrong. Not your pace, not your process, and certainly not you. As Liz says, you don't just cry when they die. You fall apart and then blindly, achingly stitch yourself back together, thread by thread. And all of that is woman's work.

[C]

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