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- [00:00]
A
This Life of Mine with James Corden is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it most. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on your car insurance, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Right, let's talk about winter. It's freezing, it's dark at about 4:12pm and you've got big goals, right? But somehow you're meant to be meal prepping quinoa at 9 o' clock at night? Absolutely not. That's where Factor comes in. Fully prepared meals designed by dietitians, crafted by chefs. Simple so you can eat brilliantly without planning, chopping or pretending that you enjoy washing up. Now my personal favorite at the moment is the high protein creamy Parmesan Chicken. It's got lean, juicy chicken, loads of colorful veg, proper whole food ingredients and healthy fats that actually keep you full. There's no refined sugars, no artificial sweeteners or refined seed oils. Just real food that fits the let's be sensible this winter mood. It's perfect when I'm trying to stay on track, manage my calories and still feel like I've had a proper, comforting meal. And there's so much variety. There's over a hundred rotating meals every week. High protein, calorie, smart Mediterranean, GLP1 support, even ready to eat salads. They've even launched Muscle Pro to support strength and recovery, which is incredible. It's like having a tiny little chef who genuinely cares about your goals. Now the best bit. It's always fresh, it's never frozen, and it's ready in about two minutes. There's no prep, no stress and no excuses. Honestly, it really makes eating well ridiculously easy even in the middle of winter. Head to factor meals.com lifeofmind50 off to get 50% off and a free breakfast for a year Here. Eat like a pro this month with Factor New subscribers only varies by plan. One free breakfast per item per box for one year while subscription is active. Before we begin today's show, I just want to let you know that in this episode we discuss eating disorders and thoughts of suicide. There's also some heavy language throughout. Welcome to this Life of Mine, the show where we talk about the places people Possessions, music, and memories that have made our incredible guests who they are. Joining me today is an Emmy award winning actor who has had the most extraordinary life. Her career is vast and varied. She starred on Broadway. She's been in countless movies, some of all of our favorite movies, including Save the Last Dance, Ray, the Last King of Scotland, and a wonderful turn in Django Unchained. She's instantly recognizable from playing everybody's favorite fixer, Olivia Pope, on Scandal. I cannot wait to talk to her about her choices today. Are you ready to kick us off?
- [03:33]
B
I am.
- [03:34]
A
Okay, then go for it.
- [03:35]
B
I'm Kerry Washington. Welcome to this life of mine.
- [03:50]
A
Hi, Kerry. Hi. Oh, nice throw. Nice flourish of the throw there with the card. How are you doing?
- [03:55]
B
I'm good. I'm so happy to see you.
- [03:57]
A
Well, I'm happy to see you. I was trying to think about how we would kick this off. What's the best way to start? And I sort of figured we should just get out of the way. Are we okay to talk about Olivia Pope for just a minute? Is that all right?
- [04:12]
B
We are.
- [04:13]
A
When did you realize that that character was gonna change your life?
- [04:19]
B
Oh, wow. Oh, that's such a good question. It was gradual. There wasn't, like a particular moment. But I do have these sort of signposts along the way. I mean, I remember Oprah Winfrey saying that she started to watch Scandal because it's all anybody talked about on Twitter on Thursday nights.
- [04:40]
A
Yeah.
- [04:40]
B
But you know what? I think early on, because there was a lot of talk about how historic the show was that it had been. When we air, it had been almost 40 years since there had been a black woman as the lead of a network drama. And so as soon as I realized that we were gonna have a second season, I realized that we were making history and that something was gonna really change culturally because of the show.
- [05:04]
A
When you went into it.
- [05:06]
B
Yeah.
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A
Even day one where you.
- [05:07]
B
Day one. Day one. I thought if we don't get this right, then it might be another 40 years till they allow a black woman to be the lead of a network drama. But instead, because audiences showed up for us. Yes. I think two or three seasons in, then we were able to be the lead into how to Get Away with Murder. And then Priyanka Chopra had her own show, and Taraji P. Henson was the lead of her show. Right. Like, we were able to prove that it wasn't a risky commercial endeavor to put a woman of color as the lead of a network show.
- [05:36]
A
I think it goes even further than that. That It's a woman of color in the lead of a show. It's also a woman of color who is skilled, determined.
- [05:45]
B
So badass. Yeah.
- [05:47]
A
You know, unbelievable. At her job was necessary to fix things and flawed. This isn't. It wasn't a show where she was the wife of a character who fulfilled this certain role.
- [06:02]
B
Yes, that's right.
- [06:03]
A
She was necessary in every scene.
- [06:06]
B
Yeah. She was in almost every room. The most powerful person in the room. And then there was this one guy who made her weak in the knees. The President of the United States, who then made her human. So she did. She was able to be so aspirational for people because of the way she dressed and walked and her power. She was an entrepreneur and a fixer, but she was also so human because she was so in love with this man that she couldn't have. Please stop getting my hopes up. Just stop.
- [06:34]
A
I can't stop. I won't.
- [06:36]
B
Olivia. I am not a toy you can play with when you're bored or lonely or horny. I am not the girl that got gets at the end of the movie. I am not a fantasy. If you want me, earn me. Until then, we are done.
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A
You would go on runs in some scenes.
- [06:54]
B
I know. We have three page monologues.
- [06:57]
A
Yeah. Like I would think. I would think. Because it's one thing if you're doing stuff like that in. In a play or in a movie where you think, okay, well, I'm. You've got it. You might have a day. Let's say you've got a day. Obviously, in a play, you learn it and you do it countless times.
- [07:11]
B
Yeah.
- [07:11]
A
For months on a movie set, you might have a whole day to focus on this thing.
- [07:16]
B
That's right.
- [07:16]
A
In a TV schedule where you're shooting an hour a. That would be a couple of hours. You might have to shoot these scenes where you would just be an. I don't care what you say.
- [07:25]
B
And this is it.
- [07:26]
A
And you know what? Look at me. And you could say what you think is that that's the way it is. And then you'd walk down the road and take out the phone and be like, it's handy. And I'd be like, oh, my God, this is amazing.
- [07:38]
B
It was so fun. It was like. I think being the lead on a network drama is probably the most athletic form of acting.
- [07:47]
A
Yes.
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B
It's like training for the Olympics. It's. You have to be in such sharp condition mentally. I knew exactly how long it would take me to memorize per page. I got really conditioned as an actor doing Scandal made me feel like there was nothing I couldn't do as an actor.
- [08:04]
A
Was it hard to let go of her as a character, or was there an element of relief in that?
- [08:11]
B
I think it was both.
- [08:12]
A
Yeah.
- [08:12]
B
I felt ready to let her go. I felt like we had done everything we could have done in those storylines, and I was excited to be able to take on other projects and go do Broadway again and spend more time with my family. But I knew I was gonna miss her. I was very close to her. Yeah, she changed me.
- [08:33]
A
I think she changed all of us. Now we've asked for a person, a place, a possession, a piece of music. We've thrown in a wild card of a movie and a memory.
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B
Yes.
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A
We asked you to give us a place that resonates with you. What place did you choose?
- [08:51]
B
I chose in the water. When I'm swimming is when I'm most comfortable. It's weird to say, but I really feel more comfortable in water than I even feel it on land. I am more myself, more embodied. Maybe there's something about the sensory aspect of being in water. There's, you know, so much more contact with water than there is with air, more awareness. But I love. I love to be in the ocean. I love to be swimming, even in a pool, in a lake. I'm just happiest when I'm in the water. You also have this distance. Like, truly, when you're underwater, you can still hear what's going on in the world, but you have this safe distance where everything else is kind of muffled. And so I think my relationship with myself becomes more clear. Like I can hear my own thoughts better in the water because the sounds of the world get turned down.
- [09:41]
A
Would it be fair to say you haven't always been comfortable talking about yourself?
- [09:44]
B
A hundred percent.
- [09:45]
A
But you are becoming more comfortable now?
- [09:48]
B
Yes.
- [09:49]
A
And what do you put that down to?
- [09:50]
B
I've written this memoir, Thicker Than Water, which is something I. I mean, if you had said to me five or six years ago that I was gonna write a book about myself, I would've told you you were certifiably insane. There was no way that I would share that much of myself publicly. But I had this revelation, this personal revelation, about five or six years ago. My parents sat me down. They shared with me that my beloved dad, who's a bit of an Instagram famous person, that he is not my biological father, that I was conceived with the help of a sperm donor. And my parents were not planning to tell me this. They were intending to Take this to their graves 100%. But I was gonna go on Skip Gates show Finding youg Roots on pbs. And at first, my parents were really excited about it. Cause we all thought it was like census reports and family records. And then they sent us these DNA kits. And my dad started having panic attacks, and I didn't know why. And they said they didn't wanna do the show. And so I talked to Skip and I said, I really. I think you should talk to them. Like, you're kind of of that generation older black man. Like, maybe you can figure out why they're so resistant. All of a sudden. He says, my mom was kind of like, Professor Gates, let's say, hypothetically, that there was a situation where.
- [11:07]
A
Oh, man.
- [11:09]
B
And my mom said, you know, would that come up in the show? And he said, it absolutely would. And they were like, okay, thank you. Well, we don't think we're gonna do the show. And he, God bless him, was like, in my experience, it is most painful for a family when they can't make peace with each other while everybody's alive. And so I think it's really important that you tell her so that you can have some resolve as a family.
- [11:33]
A
So tell me about that conversation. Tell me about. It was crazy, that moment and what they say and how you felt.
- [11:40]
B
I could tell that they were both terrified. They said, you know. You know that it took us a really long time to have you. We worked for years and years to try to conceive you. When the doctor examined them both, he said, you know, you have two options. You can either adopt or you can do this newfangled, highly experimental thing that not many people are doing called artificial insemination. And that's what they did. Which was, in many ways shocking to me because we were existing in the world as kind of this perfect family that had, you know, basically this miracle unfolded that finally they were able to conceive me. And. But also, there was a bit of a sense of like, oh, now I know what I didn't know. I always knew that there was something. Some emotional moat between my parents and I. Some arm's length. But looking back through the lens of this new information, I felt. Feel so much more clarity about why I was always trying to close the distance and feel like I needed to do more or be more in order to be loved. I haven't talked a lot about myself because for a lot of my life, I felt like, just not entirely comfortable in my skin. I was much more comfortable being a character than I was Being myself.
- [13:01]
A
I think I'm right in saying you went to a pretty fancy school.
- [13:03]
B
Very posh, as you all would say, Manhattan.
- [13:05]
A
But you would travel every day from the Bronx. Which part of the Bronx?
- [13:09]
B
Like Central East Bronx.
- [13:10]
A
Central East Bronx.
- [13:11]
B
This is all the same neighborhood that J. Lo is from. Sounds like.
- [13:15]
A
So you're Carrie from the block.
- [13:16]
B
I am. She's gentle from the block. I'll be fooled by the rocks that I've got.
- [13:20]
A
I can only imagine that's quite. You're moving between two very different worlds there. In quite a formative time of your life, between 10 and 11, going from Central East Bronx to Manhattan. What did you realize about yourself and your own environment? Growing up and traveling between those two
- [13:38]
B
environments, it was like cultural whiplash. These worlds could not have been more different. And I think in some ways, my world opened up when I went to Spence. Because in my neighborhood growing up, we were considered rich. We were the first in the building to have a microwave. We had a dishwasher in our apartment. My parents had two cars. We had a tiny cabin in upstate New York that we went to once in a while. So we were rich. And then I went to Spence. And people had, like, heliports on their homes in the Hamptons. And they had. You know, I was taking a bus to a subway to get to school. And people had private chauffeurs dropping them off in the morning. So it was a very different world. And I remember feeling, number one, like I couldn't let anybody know any shock that I was experiencing. I had to hide. Cause I didn't want to identify myself as other. So I had to act like everything was not a big deal. Even though inside I was like, holy shit. Like, I couldn't believe that people lived this way. And I also felt very early on at that age, 10, 11, like, how come nobody that looks like me lives in this building? But it opened up my eyes that there were. There was a bigger world than my neighborhood. There were different kinds of opportunities. I think it probably shifted my ideas about ambition.
- [15:02]
A
So when did acting start to become something that you took an interest in? Was this around this time?
- [15:07]
B
It was younger. I think around 6 or 7. My mom is, as I write about in the book, she's a very stoic woman. She's very elegant. Her parents were Jamaican, but, like a very British Jamaican, very conservative and graceful, elegant. And she had this child, me, who was like a walking id. Like, I was this very emotional experience, expressive kid. And I'm really lucky that she identified that I needed that kind of expressive outlet. I think she identified consciously or unconsciously that she didn't know how to give me the framework to be this kind of emotional child. So she put me in theater companies, she put me in plays. She put me in dance classes. She put me in places where I could, like, be big and bold and loud and sing and dance and act. And thank God, because I did, I felt like I could really be myself in those places where I felt like at home sometimes I had to be, you know, more perfect, more contained, a good girl. But in the theater, I could just be messy and fun.
- [16:08]
A
And is it right that J. Lo would come into the school to teach dance classes? Is that right?
- [16:16]
B
So she didn't come in dispense. We grew up in the same neighborhood in the Bronx, and we used to go to the same boys and girls club. And we had a beloved teacher named Larry Maldonado who was like all of our father figure, big brother. He was exceptional. And he fell very ill in the late 80s. He's one of the first people I knew who had contracted hiv. And when he was in and out of the hospital, Jennifer, who was one of the big girls, she was a teenager when I was one of the little kids. And when he would go into the hospital, she would step in and teach classes for him. So, yes, you would think I'd be a better dancer, but the idea of J.
- [16:56]
A
Lo walking into your school and being like, five, six, seven, eight, isn't that craz?
- [17:01]
B
So crazy. And you know what? We knew like, she had that star quality.
- [17:07]
A
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I'm working in New York and I tried to find a therapist online and honestly it was hopeless. Every therapist I found, they were either fully booked or they were out of network or they were charging prices, which made me think, sorry, does this come with a yacht? And I remember thinking it really shouldn't be this hard. Affordable, accessible mental health care shouldn't be something that's out of reach. But too often it is. And look, if we use insurance for physical health, why shouldn't our mental health get the same treatment? And that's exactly why I love what Ruler is doing. Here's the deal with Ruler. Most online therapy platforms don't work with insurance at all, which means you'll be stuck paying out of pocket or signing up for some incredibly expensive monthly subscription. But Ruler does it differently. They partner with over 100 insurance plans, which means the average co Pay is just $15 a session. And Ruler doesn't just match you with the first available therapist, they actually take the time to understand your goals and then they will give you a curated list of therapists who are in network and genuinely aligned with what it is that you need. So if you go to ruler.com lifeofmind you can get started today. That's R U L A.com lifeofmine for quality therapy that is covered by INSUR. There are no wait lists, no endless emails. Ruler helps you find someone who is available as soon as tomorrow. Because finding the right therapist, well that could be life changing. Thousands of people are already using Ruler to get affordable, high quality therapy that is actually covered by insurance. So if you visit ruler.comlifeofmind, you can get started straight away. And after you sign up, they're gonna ask you how you heard about them. And it would be great if you could support our show and let them know that we sent you. That's r u l a.com lifeofmine. You deserve mental healthcare that works with you, not against your budget. Right, let's talk about winter. It's freezing, it's dark at about 4:12pm and you've got big goals, right? But somehow you're meant to be meal prepping quinoa at 9 o' clock at night. Absolutely not. That's where Factor comes in. Fully prepared meals designed by dietitians, crafted by chefs so you can eat brilliantly without planning, chopping or pretending that you enjoy washing up. Now, my personal favorite at the moment is the high protein creamy Parmesan chicken. It's got lean, juicy chicken, loads of colourful veg, proper whole food ingredients and healthy fats that actually keep you full. There's no refined sugars, no artificial sweeteners or refined seed oils, just real food that fits the let's be sensible this winter mood. It's perfect when I'm trying to stay on track, manage my calories and still feel like I've had a proper, comforting meal. And there's so much variety. There's over a hundred rotating meals every week. High protein, calorie, smart, Mediterranean, GLP1 support, even ready to eat salads. They've even launched Muscle Pro to support strength and recovery, which is incredible. It's like having a tiny little chef who genuinely cares about your goals. Now the best bit. It's always fresh, it's never frozen and it's ready in about two minutes. There's no prep, no stress and no excuses. Honestly, it really makes eating well ridiculously easy, even in the middle of winter. Head to factor meals.com lifeofmind50 off to get 50 off and a free breakfast for a year. Eat like a pro this month with Factor New subscribers only. Varies by plan. One free breakfast per item per box for one year while subscription is active. Let's move on to your next selection. It's a wild card selection and I was intrigued to know what you would choose. That's your favorite film. And then. Thrilled.
- [23:33]
B
I swear, I swear I'm not kissing you. I know, I.
- [23:35]
A
Listen, just look, it's your list. I had nothing to do with it. Tell us the film that you have chosen.
- [23:41]
B
So the film I've chosen is into the Woods. You wish to have the curse Reversed. I'll need a certain potion first. It is without a doubt my absolute favorite musical. It was a gift from my parents. I went to see it with my dad for my sixth grade graduation. I remember sitting in the audience with him. That musical embodies so much actually of who my dad is. Right. Like, my dad is such a performer. He believes in magic. He's a brilliant person when it comes to imagination and make believe and fairy tales. And I was obsessed with fairy tales as a child. I used to collect, like first edition Hans Christian Andersen books. And yeah, I really loved fairy tales. And I loved Sodheim. My dad loved Sodheim. Into the woods and down the dell the path is straight, I know it well into the woods and who can tell what's waiting on the journey into the woods to bring some bread to granny who is sick in bed Never can tell what lies ahead for all But I know she's already dead but into the woods into the woods into the woods to grandmother's house and home before dark I missed the original cast for one cast member, so I missed Bernadette Peters, which I say to her all the time I wish I could have seen. But the person who replaced her was Phylicia Rashad. So this little black girl from the Bronx got to go see into the woods with this incredible black woman who I worshiped from television playing the witch. And I was blown away and floored and inspired. And I just thought, I want to be up on that stage one day. And I loved it. I loved that the first act was just like nothing but joy. And then there was this deeper, darker, emotional truth. And so it was really funny when the film came out. My husband and I were dating at the time, and we were at Christmas in the Bronx and all my cousins were around and I used to listen to the into the woods non stop. The original cast recording like nonstop in car rides up to the lake and back on the way to school and home. And so Nnamdi was saying, like, hey, you guys, this, this new movie, like into the woods, like, what is it about? And I had all these like six foot tall guys in the Bronx being like, yo, it's dope. There's like this witch and like a baker and the baker can't have kids. Then Little Red Riding Hood and then the wolf, yo, like, it was so great to hear them know. Yeah. And so when the film came out, it just was so. It was so magical. You guys did such a tremendous job embodying something that I love so much that I Thought it'll never be as good as my memories of being a little girl, but you made it even better. And my littles are in love with it too. So it's really like a family movie that we all adore.
- [26:32]
A
That just made my day. I mean, we got to be in a musical together. We were in a musical called the Prom. Would you ever go and do a musical on?
- [26:39]
B
I think I would. I think it would be really hard for me, but it would be a challenge. I would love a character I feel like I would really love to play. Would be Ms. Hannigan in Annie.
- [26:49]
A
Oh, that's a great show.
- [26:50]
B
I think that'd be fun. Wouldn't that be great? Yeah. Yeah.
- [26:53]
A
As you start to forge your way into acting, it comes at a moment when there's quite a large financial burden at home. Can you talk to me about what was happening? Cause like you said, comparative to where you were, you were wealthy, but there was some quite large financial changes in your household.
- [27:12]
B
Yeah.
- [27:12]
A
What happened?
- [27:13]
B
My dad got involved in this kind of IRS problematic situation, and he had to go out on his own as an entrepreneur, as a realtor, and he had trouble getting the business off the ground. And, you know, it's not that he was completely unsuccessful, but he wasn't able to. To succeed in the way that he wanted to and in the ways that we needed financially. And there were these huge legal fees every month. And I thought because I found my way into acting professionally, not just in kind of the children's theater companies, that I needed to help take care of my family. There was some pressure to book, some pressure to continue to bring money in from commercials and after school specials and soap operas that I was doing. I joined this incredible theater company that was connected to Mount Sinai Hospital in New York, where, again, it was sort of now the AIDS epidemic had really taken up some momentum. And this company did AIDS prevention education work. So we would write these vignettes together about safer sex and teen pregnancy and homosexuality and drug abuse and self esteem, and then we'd go out and perform them for our peers. And it was incredible acting training. I mean, it was. It was brilliant paycheck. I was able to contribute in some ways, although it was never gonna pay what a soap opera or commercial would pay. But I was able to at least be less of a burden on my parents. But it was also the best acting training I've ever had.
- [28:43]
A
Is this right? Cause this might be something that just gets written about on the Internet, which obviously could not be true, that you would do the classes where you teach putting a condom on a banana.
- [28:52]
B
Yes. Yeah, we did that. So that was written into the skit. Sometimes, you know, you'd have, like, two kids and one of them is like, you really need to ask your boyfriend to wear a condom. Well, I don't know how to put a condom on. I'll show you. And then we'd role model that to the audience. But we would also stay in character after the show, right? Like, so I would get up and do a monologue about, like, I don't know if I should lose my virginity. And then after the show we'd say to the audience, like, should I? What do you think? Should I? And so we'd get into these conversations where they'd ask us questions and they'd give us advice. And so we'd have to know our characters inside and out. Cause they would really. They would get up and role play with us. And so it was really, really fun.
- [29:27]
A
You won a theatre scholarship at George Washington University. So to keep the scholarship, part of the rule was you had to audition for every production at the college, which would be enough. But then on top of that, you decided to study anthropology, sociology and psychology.
- [29:46]
B
Yeah.
- [29:46]
A
Why? Why? Why fill your plate that much?
- [29:50]
B
I've always been somebody who's wanted to grow my mind and be proficient as a thinking artist. I was playing Ophelia, but also studying Hamlet in English class. And I got to, for my final paper, keep a journal as Ophelia, where, like, my handwriting got messier and messier as she got more and more mad and, you know, put, like, trinkets and locks of hair in the journal and really think about analyzing the material from a creative point of view. So I've always really been interested in this connection between art and culture and identity and how people become who they are, how we express who we are through theater, how we express who we are through the performativity of everyday life. So there was this interest in performance as a deeper intellectual exercise. I wanted to grow my mind and fulfill my curiosity around why performance matters in culture and in our lives.
- [30:50]
A
I feel like a lot of your life, hearing you talk, the book you've written a lot of comes back to. I wanted to find out why. Yeah, I wanted to find out why this is this. Why would it be this? And so let's move to your next selection because we're gonna. We asked you for a person, somebody who has been important and instrumental in your life. Which person did you choose?
- [31:17]
B
So my person is Phil Stutts, who's A remarkable psychiatrist who I lucky to work with for many, many, many years. I knew when I walked into Phil's office that I had found somebody who was a different beast of a person. The therapy is really based on tools for visualization and shifts in perspective. It's not just kind of like, let's talk about your past. That's important, but it's also about let's figure out how to give you the tools to move forward in a really different way with more awareness of, again, this idea of, like, who you are, where you come from, and what you need to help you push past the parts of your shadow that are pulling you back and limiting you. And also, Phil is from the Bronx. He was born and raised in the Bronx. And I felt like a kinship with him. He's like this kind of old curmudgeon in Beverly Hills, but we came from the same place and we understood each other. So I have a trust in him and his perspective and his feedback that's different from any other therapist I've ever had.
- [32:29]
A
And what made you seek therapy?
- [32:32]
B
Well, I started seeking therapy in college, so not Phil Stutz. The thing that put me on my knees, that really made me ask for help was my eating disorder. So I struggled throughout my life, but especially in college. It really got extreme in college, this disordered relationship with food and with exercise. Because I had gone to this very posh school where I knew that there were lots of girls who had eating disorders that were, you know, very identifiable. Anorexia and bulimia. And I thought, well, I can't have an eating disorder because I can't be a mess. I still have to be a good girl, so I'm gonna mess around with food and exercise. I thought that the ways that I was behaving, like, I never put my finger down my throat. So therefore, I don't have a real eating disorder. Or I would starve for three or four days in a row, but eventually I would eat, so that's not anorexia. I would sort of mess around with the rules so that I could still think of myself as normal, as a good girl, as acceptable. But I was a mess. My whole world revolved around eating, not eating, over exercising. And this went on for decades. I mean, this went on for a really long time in different ways, in different shapes, but started in high school, all through college, the beginning of my career. I mean, I think in some ways I still struggle with some of these thoughts, but the behavior is really different, so there's more distance between the thought and the action.
- [33:47]
A
Now, were you ever skeptical about therapy? Feels like so much of your life has been about, as you've said, being perfect, being good. I'm great a student. Yeah, I can do this. I'm gonna eat all this, but then it's okay, because I'll do two hours on this treadmill, and I'll come in and I'll be top of this class, and I'm fine. And I was to go to see a therapist is. Is on some level, an admission that you need some help, whereas so much of your life seems to have been about going, I don't need any help. I'm not just fine. I'm perfect.
- [34:18]
B
I'm the lead in the play. I've got a 3.8 GPA. Yeah. I think in many ways I'm grateful for my disordered eating and disordered exercise behavior because that was the one thing I couldn't control. I gravitated toward behaviors that were more socially acceptable, but they were still destroying me. I was still having suicidal thoughts alone in my dorm room. And so community leads to healing. That, like, keeping your secrets in your own and not asking for help, refusing to admit that you might need something other than yourself to heal can be a weakness. So it was shocking for me to, like, open myself up and say, like, okay, maybe it's a sign of health that I accept outside help. But that was a lot of the journey for me. I think I was resistant in the beginning, and I've been resistant to different things along the way. Like, I remember my first therapist in college saying, you spend a lot of time in here talking about your relationship with your dad and how much you struggle there. Like, do you think you want to talk about your mom? And I was like, no, my mom's perfect. Like, nothing to talk about there. It was probably 10 years until I found myself in a therapy session, realizing that I had some real stuff to unpack with my mom, too.
- [35:29]
A
Your next selection. We asked you for a piece of music.
- [35:31]
B
An impossible question, but tell us what you've chosen. I chose Bill Withers. Lovely day.
- [35:38]
A
Why? Why this?
- [35:40]
B
I feel like it's a song that you cannot listen to and not feel more joyful. Something without warning Love bears heavy on my mind. It just is, like, peace and love and light in music. It is the. I guess personification is the wrong word, but it's the musication of those just, like, happy, peaceful feelings. And I love that it doesn't matter where you are, what you're doing, or what you're going through, even if you're still sad. You're gonna be a teeny bit happier if you hear that. So.
- [36:36]
A
It's a masterpiece. It's a masterpiece. It's one of those songs. You won't hear anybody go, ugh.
- [36:41]
B
Never.
- [36:42]
A
I can't stand Bill Witherspoon.
- [36:45]
B
That's right. That's right. I hate that song.
- [36:51]
A
One of my favorite things to do when I lived in Los Angeles was introducing people to British music artists who they may not have heard of. And you are one of my proudest moments, which is when we were shooting the Prom.
- [37:09]
B
Yes.
- [37:09]
A
Kerry and I used to get our makeup done next to each other. Sometimes we'd be learning lines. Sometimes we'd just be chatting. Sometimes we're not. We got talking about the British artist, the rapper Dave. I got stainless steel, I got platinum, I got gold, and I got titanium. And I got to play you some of Dave's music and his performances. You then were like, oh, my God. This is amazing. How have I not heard of this? Yes. Do you know a character you played was mentioned in a Dave song? No, but I didn't think you'd know this. No. And when I heard it, I loved showing you Dave, and I showed you his performance of the Brits when he did a performance of a song called Black so Cool. And you were like, I'm sharing this with everyone.
- [37:50]
B
Yeah, I was. I died. I sent it to all my Bronx. All those same Bronx cousins. I was like, yo, you gotta see this artist.
- [37:56]
A
And then I'm listening to Dave's own. Dave's got a song called Titanium, and he's got a lyric that goes, you got dope, then you got hope. Nope. I see it from a different angle. Bad bitch with her hair on a rope. Olivia Pope. It's one big scandal, and I didn't think you'd know that, but I thought you'd love it. You got dope, then you got hope. Nope. I see it from a different angle. That bitch with her hair on rope. A living your Pope. It's one big scandal.
- [38:23]
B
That's amazing. That's so good. Wow. I love that.
- [38:32]
A
Let's move on to your possession and tell us what you chose as an item or possession.
- [38:39]
B
This was a hard one for me because I'm not a big possession person. We joke about this in my home. My husband says that I'm really hard to shop for because I don't really like a lot of things. Like, I'm not a. A car person, or, like, I don't have a whole lot of jewelry. Like, I'm just not really a. I don't gravitate toward material stuff that much. But I have this collection of shells. So my husband and I honeymooned in Tanzania, and we ended the trip in Zanzibar, in this little island off the coast of Zanzibar. And we used to take walks around this island, tiny little island. Oh. The only thing on it is this little resort, and I would collect shells, and I have them in this beautiful glass vase in our bedroom. And I just. I think maybe it has something to do with how much I love the ocean. It has something to do with how much I loved that week. Like, you know, the two happiest weeks of my life outside of anything having to do with children or my honeymoon and hosting snl. Whenever I look at that collection of shells, it reminds me of the space that we gave ourselves to start our life together as a couple in this really sacred way. You know, having this sort of very private, secretive wedding and then just jumping off into this very remote place to really begin our lives together. I love that. I love that jar. It always makes me feel so grateful for the life that I have.
- [40:02]
A
I feel like if my wife said to me, I'm gonna bring these shells home, I would just be like, oh,
- [40:08]
B
God, that's exactly right.
- [40:12]
A
Tell me you basically got married in secret.
- [40:14]
B
Yes.
- [40:15]
A
You didn't wear an engagement ring?
- [40:17]
B
No, I used to pin my engagement ring to my undergarments. Cause I loved my ring so much, so I would sleep in it at night, and then in the morning I would pin it to my undergarments so that nobody knew we were engaged.
- [40:28]
A
Why so secretive? Obviously, Namdi was NFL corn about you. This is a high profile wedding. Tell me about your wedding day and what you remember of it.
- [40:37]
B
You know, he. At a really crazy time in his career, he had had a groundbreaking, record breaking contract that he had just walked through. And he had been in like three or four Pro Bowls. Like, you know, when I met him, he was on the COVID of Sports Illustrated, and I was on this hit show. It just felt like there was a lot of public energy around our careers, but we kept our relationship very private. When we were dating. I think mostly because we just wanted to protect ourselves and each other. I think it's really hard when people have a lot to say about your relationship. And I had been in a really public engagement that when it ended, I was in the unfortunate position of being on the COVID of a bridal magazine. And it was a magazine that came out quarterly. So for three months, I walked around Sort of. And I thought, I think I'm done talking about my personal life. Life in the public.
- [41:33]
A
So you're in this moment in your life now where being so protective, so private. To not wear a engagement ring, to get married in secret, to go on a honeymoon in secret. All of these things to then, as you say, to release a memoir where you drop some. We spoke about it earlier. Some. Some big family stuff, big secrets. Knowing you as I do, what I'm watching is you essentially going, oh, I'm starting to make sense of lots of things that have happened in my life.
- [42:02]
B
That's right.
- [42:03]
A
Is this quite a cathartic moment that you're in right now?
- [42:06]
B
It does. It feels. Feels really liberating to know myself more. Feel more comfortable with myself, to not feel like I have to hide and also to not feel like I have to prove myself, to just kind of be more present and in acceptance of myself. I'm not doing that because I choose to maintain a sense of sacredness. Like, there are things that are sacred to me that belong to me, which is different from having secrets that are born of shame. Right. Like there's a choice. That was part of why I wanted to write the book is that initially when my parents told me, you know, they said, here's this news and please don't tell anybody. Right. Like, I was expected to maintain the family secret, to sort of inherit their shame. I don't want to take on this sense that I have to pretend to be somebody other than who I really am in order to be loved and accepted. That part of their legacy. I want to end with me because I had it for most of my life, and I've realized how much pain it's caused my family, and I realized where it comes from being kind of born into this lie, this performance. But now that we're all telling the truth, like, we're done. Now you get to be loved for who you truly are.
- [43:25]
A
And you've made a decision to try and find your biological father.
- [43:29]
B
Yeah. Who I. I know that this is a tiny distinction. I think one day I might like the phrase biological father, but I refer to him as the donor.
- [43:37]
A
Yeah.
- [43:37]
B
My dad was by my mother's side as she was eating and drinking and nurturing this.
- [43:43]
A
And what are you hoping to find and what are you hoping it gives you?
- [43:46]
B
So I think the search, because I share with a lot of donor conceived people this sense that I want to know where I come from. I think adopted kids have a similar thing. Like, I want to. I want to understand for medical reasons. But even just, you know, you hear stories of somebody meeting their donor and going, like, oh, that's where my eyes come from. Or that's where I got that walk, or. I'm not really looking for a relationship. That's why I don't really use the word biological father. Cause it implies a relationship. I'm really looking for information. I'm looking for my past, like, what the tree is where I come from. If it comes with relationship, then that might be okay, too. I'll see. But what I really want is the information. I don't need a dad. I have an extraordinary dad. It's a complicated relationship, but it's a beautiful one. I don't need anybody to replace him or to fill in the gaps of what he wasn't. But I do want to know who I am, where I come from.
- [44:51]
A
I think it's a really bold thing to do.
- [44:56]
B
Why?
- [44:57]
A
Because my hope for you as a friend is to be okay. If you don't find that person. Be okay.
- [45:12]
B
Yeah.
- [45:12]
A
And realize the blessings of your life without that, I don't want it to become some. This search that Kerry Washington has had for ultimate perfection.
- [45:24]
B
Yes.
- [45:25]
A
And ultimate success to not be going, well, I will find this person that if you don't, maybe the answer is to listen to the universe and go, that you don't need to.
- [45:35]
B
Yeah.
- [45:35]
A
Does that make sense?
- [45:36]
B
Well, it makes sense. Makes so much sense. Because I actually think, you know, I have the best people in the world looking for this person. Literally, the woman who connected, who made the connection to find the Golden State Killer is on my team. Like, we're probably gonna find this person whether they're alive or not. But I think there's a beautiful elegance to the fact that the answer didn't come quickly, because even though I was looking for him almost immediately, the fact that God, Universe, whatever you want to call it, was like, not yet. Not yet. It feels like it gave me time to really honor my dad, to not just say, well, who's the other guy? But to say, like, no, no, no. Give my dad the honor. Tell this story of our family. Like, imagine how different this book would be if I knew who the donor was.
- [46:27]
A
Correct.
- [46:28]
B
It would be a different.
- [46:29]
A
Oh, this whole story.
- [46:30]
B
Right. It wouldn't be this book about my parents and I. So I get to have this book in the world that's really about me and my parents. So I feel like I'm ready to meet him and have it or know even who he is and have it just be what it is without it needing to be something perfect.
- [46:48]
A
Let's move to your final selection.
- [46:50]
B
Okay.
- [46:51]
A
Which is a precious memory. Tell us the memory that you've chosen.
- [46:57]
B
I don't even know exactly why this one came to me, but. So when I was a kid, our first trip to Los Angeles, actually, I think I was about 5 or 6, and my dad's best friend lived out in LA. And so we went to Los Angeles. We went to SeaWorld. And I don't know if they still have this, but they had this huge tank, a pearl tank, so it had oysters. And they would have these scuba divers or divers. They weren't scuba divers. They were snorkeling divers. They would go down and they would. They would pick an oyster and cut it open, and there were pearls inside. And then you could take the pearls and get jewelry made. And they always asked for a volunteer from the audience to come on stage. And so at that young age, they asked for a volunteer, and my hand shot up in the air, and they chose me to go up on stage as, like, the kid from the audience who got to tell the snorkel diver guy which oyster to pick. He came up and he said, which one would you like, little girl? And I pointed to the one I wanted. So the diver goes down, he gets the oyster. He brings it up, and I say, that's not the one I pointed to. And the audience laughs. I wasn't trying to be funny. I was genuinely like, that's not my oyster. Like, there's a different one I wanted. He goes back down. He picks another one. I'm like, that's not the one. My mother's now devastated. The audience is laughing. He goes back down, and he picks my oyster, and he brings it to the top, and they cut it open. And inside, which happens very rarely, there's two pearls, and I had them made into earrings. And I think that girl. That girl that's willing to, like, seek her truth, get what she really wants, be unapologetic about who she is, and then receive the prize of that, receive the reward of that confidence, and walk in the world with those jewels, like, that's who I want to be.
- [48:44]
A
Well, I think that's who you are. And I think it's lovely that we started at the ocean. Yeah. We finished at Sea World.
- [48:50]
B
Yes.
- [48:51]
A
Kerry Washington. Your place was being in the water. Your film was into the woods. Your person was your therapist. Phil Stutz. Your song is Lovely Day by Bill Withers. Your possession was a collection of shells that you've kept from your honeymoon and your memories was one of being a little girl at Sea World. Thank you so much for sharing this life of yours.
- [49:14]
B
Thank you so much.
- [49:15]
A
Next week is this.
- [49:18]
B
I'm Martin Scorsese, and welcome to this life of mine. In 1945, I was three years old. I contracted asthma. I could not run. I could not play sports. I could not go near animals. I could not not go near trees.
- [49:35]
A
You could barely go outside.
- [49:36]
B
Basically, it was mainly in a house. So the only thing they could do with me was take me to the movies.
- [49:40]
A
Tell me a bit about your wife, Helen.
- [49:44]
B
Her strength is something to be. I've never seen such strength like that in a person.
- [49:53]
A
Do you think it might be that you start to just perhaps paint on a smaller canvas?
- [49:57]
B
I thought I was in Killers and look what happened.
- [50:01]
A
You couldn't have thought that. And then I got this is me just bringing it right down to school.
- [50:07]
B
Oh, I thought so. Oh, yes. We're gonna wind up with giant close up.
- [50:10]
A
Said what?
- [50:10]
B
What happened? I look out there and there's horses in the field.
- [50:13]
A
Hey, come on. Straight up, Alice.
- [50:15]
B
You, you big jerk. Look what you've done.
- [50:28]
A
If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now is the perfect time. You can listen to this life of mine completely ad free, plus you'll unlock exclusive quickfire rounds of questions with all of my guests. They're all in two minutes or less. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonade premium.com to subscribe on any other app. Or you can listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's Lemonade premium dot com. Don't miss out.