#591 - Ro Khanna

Summary

Podcast Summary: This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von – Episode #591 with Congressman Ro Khanna

Release Date: June 20, 2025

In this compelling episode of "This Past Weekend with Theo Von," host Theo Von engages in an in-depth conversation with U.S. Congressman Ro Khanna from California's 17th district, located in Silicon Valley. The discussion spans a wide range of topics, including foreign policy, lobbying influence, technological advancements, and economic strategies. Below is a detailed summary of their conversation, segmented into key themes with notable quotes and corresponding timestamps.

---

1. Introduction and Personal Background

Theo Von opens the episode by introducing Congressman Ro Khanna, highlighting his Indian heritage and familial background.

• Ro Khanna shares his family's history:

  "My grandfather, actually Amarnath Vidyalankar, spent years in jail fighting for India's independence as part of Gandhi's independence movement. And then my parents came and settled in Philadelphia. That's where I was born."
  [02:42]

He elaborates on his upbringing in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, noting the limited presence of Indian families in a predominantly white community and the support he received from educators and coaches.

---

2. Foreign Policy and Potential Conflicts

The conversation shifts to global politics, with a focus on the escalating tensions involving Iran and the potential for World War III.

• Ro Khanna expresses deep concern:

  "I'm really concerned. I'm fearful we have a possibility where we're going to blunder into another war in the Middle East."
  [05:18]

He introduces the War Powers Resolution he co-introduced with Republican Thomas Massie, aiming to require congressional approval before the President engages in military action with Iran.

• Theo Von inquires about the bill's specifics:

  "What is it called?"
  [06:09]

• Ro Khanna responds:

  "It's called the War Powers Resolution to Stop a War in Iran, which basically says before the president does anything to go into war with Iran, he's got to get a vote in Congress."
  [06:13]

Despite bipartisan efforts, Ro Khanna highlights the challenges posed by lobbying influences, particularly from pro-war factions within the Republican Party.

---

3. Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Discussing the ongoing conflict, Ro Khanna provides a sobering account of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

• Ro Khanna details the dire situation:

  "You've got 130,000 people injured. You've got over 600,000 kids who are not in school there. You've got the entire population of Gaza being forced into a corner... over 400,000 people who are starving."
  [08:10]

He critiques Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu's persistent military actions against Hamas, emphasizing the lack of progress and increasing civilian casualties.

• Ro Khanna offers a potential solution involving diplomatic efforts led by Donald Trump to broker peace and establish a new Palestinian government excluding Hamas.
  [15:17]

---

4. Lobbying and Its Influence in Congress

A significant portion of the discussion delves into the pervasive influence of lobbying in American politics, particularly focusing on the pharmaceutical industry.

• Ro Khanna condemns the extensive lobbying efforts:

  "We're paying for all these drugs to be developed... we have to fight that system."
  [30:10]

He advocates for increased transparency and accountability, referencing resources like OpenSecrets.org to monitor lobbying activities and financial contributions to Congress.

• Ro Khanna emphasizes the need for legislative action to curb the undue influence of money in politics:

  "My bill, it's called the Drain the Swamp act or my Political Reform act, and it says ban members of Congress from ever becoming lobbyists."
  [35:09]

---

5. Technology, AI, and Privacy Concerns

The conversation transitions to the realm of technology, specifically addressing the implications of artificial intelligence (AI) and data privacy.

• Theo Von raises alarms about Palantir's role in data aggregation and AI-driven military applications:

  "Palantir's software is reportedly used by the Israeli military to help select targets in Gaza... significant error margins and their recommendations can be enough to authorize deadly strikes."
  [67:03]

• Ro Khanna discusses the dual-edged nature of AI:

  "AI can be an incredible tool... but it has to be subservient to human agency."
  [67:07]

He introduces the Internet Bill of Rights, co-created with Tim Berners-Lee, advocating for data ownership, consent, and transparency in algorithmic decision-making.

• Ro Khanna states:

  "Your data should not be collected without your consent. You need to know what data of yours the federal government has."
  [85:21]

---

6. Economic Strategies and Future Workforce

Addressing economic disparities, Ro Khanna proposes "economic patriotism" as a means to rebuild American industries and create equitable opportunities.

• Ro Khanna outlines a vision reminiscent of FDR's industrialization efforts:

  "Let's have a Marshall Plan, not for Europe, a 21st century Marshall Plan for America where we start to build new factories, new industry, new AI centers."
  [100:35]

He emphasizes the importance of tech education from a young age to prepare the workforce for the evolving demands of AI and digital industries.

• Ro Khanna remarks:

  "Everyone should have a technology class. China is aiming by 2030 to have universal literacy on AI."
  [76:33]

---

7. Political Reforms and Restoring Trust

The duo discusses necessary political reforms to restore public trust in Congress, including banning stock trading and preventing members from becoming lobbyists post-tenure.

• Ro Khanna advocates for the No Trust Act:

  "It says members of Congress cannot trade stock. If there are any assets, they put them in a trust, and that would eliminate conflicts."
  [112:15]

He criticizes the revolving door between Congress and lobbying firms, highlighting the need for stringent measures to prevent conflicts of interest.

---

8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Theo Von and Ro Khanna reflect on the fading American dream and the urgent need for unity and visionary leadership to address systemic issues.

• Ro Khanna emphasizes the importance of a unified national purpose:

  "We've lost that. What is the common American dream? We've... got to have a common sense of vision."
  [105:05]

• Theo Von expresses hope that engaged citizens can drive meaningful change:

  "I just feel like this is it. We gotta find a developer who's like, you know what? I'm gonna fucking try to save humanity."
  [93:22]

Both agree on the critical role of informed and proactive citizenship in shaping the nation's future amidst technological advancements and political challenges.

---

Key Takeaways:

• War Powers Resolution: A bipartisan effort to require congressional approval before military actions, aiming to prevent unilateral engagements.

• Lobbying Influence: The pervasive role of money and lobbyists in shaping legislation, particularly in the pharmaceutical sector, undermines democratic processes.

• AI and Privacy: The integration of AI in military and governmental operations raises significant concerns about data privacy, algorithmic transparency, and ethical governance.

• Economic Patriotism: Revitalizing American industries through innovation, education, and equitable economic policies can bridge the wealth gap and rejuvenate the national economy.

• Political Reforms: Implementing measures like the No Trust Act is essential to eliminate conflicts of interest and restore public trust in legislative bodies.

This episode underscores the intricate interplay between politics, technology, and society, advocating for reforms that prioritize transparency, accountability, and the collective well-being of American citizens.

Transcript

[Theo Vaughn]

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[Ro Khanna]

That's right. Perfect.

[Theo Vaughn]

Nice. Thank you for coming in today, man. Thanks for. Thanks for meeting up and just being willing to come and chat. You are Indian, Your family is Indian?

[Ro Khanna]

Indian heritage? Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

Okay.

[Ro Khanna]

Parents immigrated from India. My grandfather, actually Amarnath Vidyalankar, spent years in jail fighting for India's independence as part of Gandhi's independence movement. And then my parents came and settled in Philadelphia. That's where I was born.

[Theo Vaughn]

Do a lot of Indian people is that. Is it? You know, some places in America are certain, like kind of Spots where people start to come. Is that a. Is that a popular place that a lot of Indian people have gone to over the years?

[Ro Khanna]

You know, where I grew up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, there were a few Indian families. It was 99% white. The bigger places are New Jersey. Have you ever been to Edison, New Jersey?

[Theo Vaughn]

I don't think so.

[Ro Khanna]

Edison. It's got a lot of Indian food. Have you eaten Indian food?

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, yeah. I've had some good Indian food.

[Ro Khanna]

What's your favorite dish?

[Theo Vaughn]

I think it's like, the one. It's like, where you all sit in a circle and everybody kind of, like, catches a cold together or whatever.

[Ro Khanna]

Whatever catches a cold.

[Theo Vaughn]

No, I just mean, like, everybody's, like, kind of sharing off of this.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah, it is a very sure thing. Yeah. You got to come to Fremont sometime. In California, that's the best Indian food in the. In the country. But Fremont, Silicon Valley, a lot of Indian families, New York, New Jersey, you know. But my upbringing was interesting because I was one of the few Indian kids growing up in Pennsylvania. And, you know, I grew up, though, with a lot of people who. Teachers who believed in me, Little League coaches who believed in me. And at times, I would get teased being Indian, but by and large, it made me very hopeful about the country.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah, man. Well, thanks. I know we wanted to talk about. I'm trying to think. I actually wrote some questions down today because I feel like it's. I feel like this is.

[Ro Khanna]

This is like, meet the press. You got. You got the. You're on a different level. I thought. You know, the thing I love about your show is it's kind of just you talking like a regular person.

[Theo Vaughn]

Maybe you're right. Should I put these away, you think?

[Ro Khanna]

I mean. No, you can give it a try. Okay.

[Theo Vaughn]

I think. You know why I think this is what I realized. I was like, man, I have. Sometimes I have conversations with people that I want to be able to get more information from, and I can't remember everything right.

[Ro Khanna]

But you know what the thing about you is? I'm not saying this to flatter you. A lot of times you'll ask questions, and they're, like, deeper and smarter than some of the Sunday talk show hosts. And I think it's because you actually talk to real people, and it's sort of like, well, how does this affect my buddy? How does this affect real people? So you could give it a try when they.

[Theo Vaughn]

Well, maybe we'll do a mix. How about this? We. I know how we got in touch is you and I had, like, Similar thoughts on different topics online.

[Ro Khanna]

Right.

[Theo Vaughn]

Well, let's just start with Iran or Iran. People say it differently, but do you think we're headed into World War Three here? What do you think's going on?

[Ro Khanna]

I'm really concerned. I'm fearful we have a possibility where we're going to blunder into another war in the Middle East. And just today, actually, to make some news, Thomas Massie, who's a principled Republican and myself, introduced a War Powers Resolution saying that the president should not get into a war with Iran without coming to Congress. You know, the president, to his credit, ran against the war in Iraq. He ran saying, I don't want any wars. And the reality is that if we strike Iran, they start hitting us back and hitting our troops in the Middle East. Terrorist activity that's going to cost this country a lot of money that should be being spent here at home. It's going to mean people could die who are serving the country.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, yeah. Well, let's take a look at this, at the bill you guys were thinking about. What is it called?

[Ro Khanna]

It's called the War Powers Resolution to Stop a War in Iran, which basically says before the president does anything to go into war with Iran, he's got to get a vote in Congress.

[Theo Vaughn]

And how long does that take, though? Like, usually to get a vote in Congress? Is there a certain period of time? Like, can they do it in 24 hours? It takes weeks.

[Ro Khanna]

Or what they call, it's the decision of the speaker of the House to when he can bring it, he has to bring it within 15 days. But what we want is today. But by the way, you know, there are a lot of Trump supporters who are telling him, don't go into this war. Tucker Carlson, Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, Dave Smith was talking about it. He's a political, he's a comedian who also talks a lot about politics, you know. Oh, I think it's, this is a horrible idea, you know? You know, and yeah, people say, well, you don't know a ton about the Middle East. That's fine. I don't want people I know, my friends getting called up. I don't want, seriously, the children of my friends getting called over to die. It. I don't even understand how it's an option. The only reason I even kind of want it to be possible is to give, is that if Israel, like, goes to war with Iran, then it'll, they'll at least stop killing Palestinian people for a day or two. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's like My only. It's like, at least point the guns that way. You know, kind of. That's where some of my thoughts are.

[Ro Khanna]

Well, you've been such a courageous voice on. On Gaza. I mean, you look at what's going on there, right? 55,000 people killed. Now, Israel says some terrorists, and they're right, some terrorists, but most of them women and children.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

You've got 130,000 people injured. You've got over 600,000 kids who are not in school there. You've got the entire population of Gaza being forced into a corner, southern corner of Gaza. And then you've got over 400,000 people who are starving, who don't have enough food to live a decent life.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah. And the saddest part, I feel like, is you see this and you're like, somebody should come help them. That's my first thought a lot of times. And then the saddest thought for me after that is we should come back. Like, it feels like America is the group that would go to help that situation. Usually that's.

[Ro Khanna]

We're the good guys, right? I mean, we were the good guys and World War II, we saved the world from Nazism. We were the good guys in the Cold War. We stood up the Soviet Union. People want to think that we are the good guys. Why are we helping Netanyahu in the killing of children, women, and so many Palestinian civilians? Now, look, Israel was hard hit October 7th. I'm sure, like many people, you thought that was horrific, the October 7th attack.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

And neither of us have any sympathy for Hamas. They're a terrorist group. But what happened is I supported initially Israel saying, go get those terrorists who committed those horrific attacks on October 7. But by within three months, they had destroyed a lot of Hamas. What now is happening over two years later, they're still going and bombing. And they're bombing because Ben GVIR and Smoltlage, two of the people in Netanyahu's cabinet, are saying, don't stop the war, even though they know that they can't. You can't bomb and eradicate Hamas. They haven't been able to do it. And what's the only thing that's happening is that civilians are getting killed and Israel actually is becoming less popular in that region. I mean, I was in Saudi Arabia and Jordan. They're losing support.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah. So why is Netanyahu trying to drag us into it? What do you think that relationship is like between him and Donald Trump?

[Ro Khanna]

So I think Donald Trump actually initially stood up to Netanyahu because He wanted to bring this war to a close, and he didn't want to get dragged in initially to a war in Iran. I mean, you know what Trump's courage was why he became president in 2016. Do you remember the Republican stage? And they all asked, are you for the Iraq war? And Jeb Bush, who was George Bush's brother, wasn't willing to say that his brother made a mistake.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, yeah, he's a little oil bunny, you know?

[Ro Khanna]

And Donald Trump, to his credit, stood up on a Republican stage and said the Iraq war was a disaster. I think that's how he became president. And he ran saying, I want to be a president who ends these wars. I really believe that's what he thought at the time.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, well, sure. Well, I think recently, you know, we're doing okay without that note so far, huh?

[Ro Khanna]

You're doing great.

[Theo Vaughn]

Okay.

[Ro Khanna]

I wish. I wish people had more common sense like you than the people who are making this foreign policy establishment. Actually, my recommendation is that before Donald Trump makes a decision, he needs to have a conversation with you. Oh, God, no. Well, to remind him, because I, you know, I watched your actually clip with him during the presidential campaign, and I said, you made him the most human that I've actually seen him. I mean, your conversation with him about his brother and alcoholism, and then he asks you, what is it? What was it like for you to have cocaine and your addiction? And I thought, wow, this is like him having a normal conversation.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah. Felt pretty normal.

[Ro Khanna]

And so, you know, but I think, do you know anyone, Theo, in your life who's like, yeah, we should go out and go. Go to war with Iran. Like, any of the.

[Theo Vaughn]

No.

[Ro Khanna]

The folks you told.

[Theo Vaughn]

Nobody. No, but even, like, even, like, hardhead, you know, like, even guys who. I like. Navy. Former Navy. No. None of them. Nobody is saying yes. And I felt like the biggest thing that's. I mean, there's so many things right now, and it's like that I feel like in the world that are kind of stressing people and making people nervous. But one of the things is, I felt like it was supposed to be America first. Like, we're focusing on, like, what are we doing to get things back into America, right? Like, increase, like, the purpose of being an American to refill, like, our hearts with blood and, like, and. And. And. And make us feel something again here and make us be excited about being an American. Right?

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

And I felt like that was what a lot of the energy was for. And then now that we're caught up here and it feels like we are just working for Israel. I think to a lot of people it's, I don't know, you just really start to feel very disillusioned pretty quickly. And I don't mean disillusioned in people, I don't mean disillusioned in like the human beings, but this disillusioned in our leaders. Right. You start to feel like, I don't know, at one point neither one of these parties is helping us.

[Ro Khanna]

Well, they both seem like parties that have gotten us into war. I mean $6 trillion it cost us into Iraq and Afghanistan. And we need now an anti war movement in this country. And I don't think it has to be Democrat or Republican. I think Americans are sick of war. Here are the two things I think we could do. Look on how do you end the war in Gaza?

[Theo Vaughn]

That's a great question. How do you. Yeah. What would you do to curtail things right now in Gaza? Do you think they're really going to aim for like a two party state over there? To me it looks like they're just going to try to sweep these people into the ocean. You know, I hate to say that.

[Ro Khanna]

The problem is you've got Netanyahu, who is listening to his right wing right. Ben Gavir and Smolich. These are two guys, Smokeless's other smolch.

[Theo Vaughn]

Sm Bring him up.

[Ro Khanna]

There he is.

[Theo Vaughn]

Sm yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

And these guys are basically telling, they're telling Netanyahu that if you stop bombing Gaza until all of Hamas is killed that we won't support you for Prime Minister. So, so Netanyahu stops, he stops being prime minister.

[Theo Vaughn]

I see what he's saying. So he's in a bit of a catch 22.

[Ro Khanna]

He's in a catch 22.

[Theo Vaughn]

But why don't. I don't understand if they're. Because you always hear great things about the Israeli military, right. The idf. You always hear like how amazing they are. And I've met a lot of former people that have been in it and guys who were like in the Krav Maga, some really talented warriors. Really. But then why not send like your Navy Seals to get the actual Hamas people? I don't understand this. If you're so precise. Yeah, then what is this? Your bug spraying this group? These people, you know, like they, they.

[Ro Khanna]

Got them in the first three months. They destroyed most of Hamas's military capability. But the reality is there Hamas is both a military movement, but it's also partly a political moment. I mean there are people, some people.

[Theo Vaughn]

In Palestine elected Hamas because they thought they needed a desperate political party.

[Ro Khanna]

Exactly right. So then the question is, well, what do you do? Because I agree with you that Hamas can't be governing Gaza. And so there is a solution. And the solution is the president, Donald Trump can call. Netanyahu says, okay, enough with the bombing. You know, we're giving them right now 2000 pound bombs to, to hit these civilians. We're giving them.

[Theo Vaughn]

There's a video the other day. Sorry to interrupt. No, can you see if you can pull that up, Trevor? There's a video of a child picking up the casing of a missile and reading it, I think. See if you find that. Yeah, we can't find it. That's okay. Do you think there's any chance of Palestine getting its land back there?

[Ro Khanna]

I do. But first of all, I mean, you talked about this child getting a missile. I mean, how would it make you feel that our tax dollars actually were paying for a lot of the missiles and the weapons that are being used to now kill Palestinians?

[Theo Vaughn]

I agree. I think we've given them $12 billion this year. Israel allegedly. Can you look up what amount of war materials that we've given them? Trevin? United States has provided significant military in Israel throughout 2025. The Trump administration, which took office in January 2025, has approved nearly $12 billion in major foreign military sales to Israel. This includes nearly a $3 billion arms sale. Does that mean we're selling them to them?

[Ro Khanna]

We're selling part of them to them. And then we've also given aid. Now, I voted against the offensive weapons aid about last year, but we approved it. So some of it is in aid, some of it is in sales. Trump is giving them 2,000 pound bombs that they can be using. So here's though, what I think that I'm hoping he or others may be listening to this because your voice really matters because, you know, and a lot of people who voted for him, and they voted for him because they wanted American patriotism, they wanted to focus on building our industrial base, they wanted us out of these wars. Donald Trump can call Netanyahu and he says, enough. We're not going to be giving you more, more offensive weapons to kill more civilians in Gaza. But here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to convene Saudi Arabia. I'm going to convene Jordan. I'm going to.

[Theo Vaughn]

What does convene mean?

[Ro Khanna]

Bring them together. Okay, Bring them together. That's. We're going to get the Arab states together. Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, People in Palestine, Fatah, Israel, the United States. And we're going to say we need a new government in Gaza. It can't be Hamas. You know, Hamas is a terrorist organization. We're going to get rid of Hamas and we're going to make sure that this new government has Palestinian voices, but also has Saudi, Jordan, Egypt part of it to make it secure so that they don't attack Israel because Saudi doesn't want to attack Israel. You know, he could win the Nobel Prize. You know, he wants to always win the Nobel Prize.

[Theo Vaughn]

Who? Donald Trump.

[Ro Khanna]

Donald Trump could win the Nobel Prize.

[Theo Vaughn]

How could he win it, do you think, Ro?

[Ro Khanna]

I think if he comes in and he says to Netanyahu, stop, stop this. I'm actually the president who's going to bring peace. And here's how we're going to do it. It's not just going to be Israel, the United States and Palestine, because we agree Hamas can't be anywhere running Gaza. I mean, Hamas has called for the destruction of Israel. We have to stand for Israel's right to exist as a Jewish democratic state. I mean, that is a principle we have to respect. But we're going to get Saudi Arabia.

[Theo Vaughn]

And they have to respect Palestine's right to exist.

[Ro Khanna]

They have to respect Palestine's right to self determination and have a Palestinian state in Gaza and in the west bank and you can get those two states and with land swaps, you could actually make it that even a lot of the, the settlers are still going to be able to stay in some of the places. I mean, you could get to a lot of the deal. We know that needs to happen. But Trump has a good relationship with the Saudis. We have a good relationship with Jordan, We've got a good relationship with Egypt. Get all of these countries on board and say, okay, what is the new Palestinian leadership going to look like? Saudi, Egypt, Jordan? Are you going to guarantee Qatar to Qatar?

[Theo Vaughn]

My boys over there, you got, you know, just over there, man, they had us all dressed up like a bunch of Ku Klux sands.

[Ro Khanna]

You were in Qatar?

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

What were you doing in Qatar?

[Theo Vaughn]

They had me come and perform for the troops. Wow. It was really great. It was pretty, pretty special. But. Sorry, I interrupted you just to get a joke in. But also was excited and had a great time there. They really treated me very nice. People thought I was a spy. I thought maybe they were going to try.

[Ro Khanna]

You could be part of this whole Middle East. Maybe you'll go perform. If they get, if they get it, if they get a, if they get A state there. I mean, I. Look, what bothers me is that we know what we need to do, right?

[Theo Vaughn]

So why is Trump afraid? Is Trump. Is Donald Trump afraid of Netanyahu? I don't. I don't understand that, you know, because Trump certainly feels like he seem. He is a guy who does not seem afraid to say what he wants to say.

[Ro Khanna]

I don't think he. I don't know what it is, because I want Trump to do the right thing. Like, I want him to. To start to end the war in Gaza, to actually figure out how we get peace there. And I think he could. He could. If he picks up the phone and he says, netanyahu, you're done. Netanyahu is going to stop the bombing. And then Netanyahu is going to say, okay, but we got Hamas. I can't stay here with Hamas. And he's. And Trump could say, okay, I'm going to help you get rid of Hamas, but you can't keep bombing and killing women and children. That's not getting rid of Hamas.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah, it's fricking crazy, dude. I mean, it's just like.

[Ro Khanna]

And so you get Egypt, you get Jordan, you get Saudi Arabia. I call it the 23 state solution. You get all of those Arabs.

[Theo Vaughn]

Put Mississippi, dude, I'll tell you this. We can give Mississippi to Palestine. I've been saying that for 15 years. Have them come over, have Mississippi.

[Ro Khanna]

Have Mississippi.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah, have the Palestinian people come and move there if they want.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah, but they want Palestine.

[Theo Vaughn]

I understand, and I do understand that. I was just trying to give them something that I think everybody could, you know, because Mississippi could use an economic boom. You know, they could use, I think, some.

[Ro Khanna]

You're for Palestinian immigrants coming, maybe.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. With Palestinian. With Palestinian immigrants coming, it would just kind of like, add a new texture to that whole state. I think it needs, like, a rebirth of. Of thought. You know, they have a lot of great arts there, but I think they had Faulkner. Oh, yeah, they had some great, say, Eudora Welty. They had Faulkner, they had Jackson Dart. I mean, they've got some great Morgan Freeman. I mean, those are easy ones, some of them. But. But no, I'm just saying if they had the Palestinians there, it would be interesting. So I've just always thought that that would be interesting.

[Ro Khanna]

But I think your voice on this really matters because no one sees you as sort of like some campus activist shutting down university buildings. You're talking to regular people. You're talking to people who are truck drivers. And blue collar workers. And you're saying, you know what, I'm always for the little guy. From the stuff I've seen about you, if there's like one Theo Vaughn political philosophy, it seems like you're for the people who are being bullied, you're for the people who are kind of shut out. And that's how you're seeing this Palestinian issue. It's not because you're, I mean, it's not Jewish or Palestinian or Muslim. It's like, how can we not be for both people? And now you're the most powerful country in the world. And a lot of people, you know, supported Donald Trump and he has an opportunity to bring the suffering to the end and make peace.

[Theo Vaughn]

Hey everyone, I've. I've been telling you about MoonPay. Yep, Moon Pay, that's what I've been using because I've been getting back in the crypto. You know, I've been tiptoeing in the crypto and you feel me up. Moonpay has got me back. Moonpay is one of the most user friendly apps out there for buying and selling crypto. People call it the PayPal of crypto because just like you use PayPal to buy almost anything online, you can use Moonpay to buy almost anything in crypto. Nearly every crypto app you've heard of uses moonpay and it works with credit cards, debit cards, Venmo, and even PayPal. Now here's where it gets really interesting. Moonpay powers payments on Bonk Bot, a cutting edge AI trading bot designed to optimize your crypto trading strategy with advanced algorithms. Whether you're trading 24, 7 or looking for a more hands off approach, Bonkbot ensures you make data driven, intelligent trades. It's your AI powered partner for smarter, more profitable trading. You can top up with moonpay and its many payment methods on Bonkbot. Remember, while Moonpay makes buying crypto straightforward, it's essential to do your own research and understand the risks involved. Crypto trading can be volatile and you could lose your investment. Moonpay is a tool to facilitate your transactions, not a source of financial trading. Trade responsibly. Hey there, summer side hustle. It's getting hot, the birds are chirping and you might have that itch to make some extra cash, go on a little vacation, whatever. One thing that's really helped me with that is using Shopify to run my merch store. That's what we use. It's simple because if I'm out of town. I can just check on my phone, see what's going on right there. Boom. I can see what's being ordered, what's not being ordered, how much, how, when, why, et cetera. Yep. Over the years, Shopify has been there as we moved out of a basement over there in Akron, Ohio, in bigger areas to hold our merch. Shopify makes it so easy for me to start and run my business. And it will for you too. So if you're ready to build your own little empire or just start selling seashells by the seashore, whether it's merch, a new product, or your new idea, go to shopify.com the O and make it happen. That's right. Shopify.com. theo, you know what I realized the other day? Because I've been thinking a lot about, like, voice, right?

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

Like, what does it mean to have a voice? And I don't mean, like me having a voice in the world, but just even have a sound that comes out of my throat that makes. Means something that's connected to my heart or to my feelings or to my thoughts, you know, and it's just. It's, you know, it's a gift. It's interesting to have. And then what it feels like when you are afraid to speak. Right. Like, I feel like my whole life when I was a kid, I was just. I. I just. I wanted to have a voice for myself, you know, I just never had a voice. We were in pretty traumatic place when I was a kid, and so I just never had. I couldn't even. I don't even have any feelings to put together to share what I wanted to share. Right? So I think, like. Like, I just. I always go for the underdog. I think that's all it is, dude. I will have my. My team.

[Ro Khanna]

That's kind of like your philosophy, right?

[Theo Vaughn]

Look, my team will be in a series, right, of a best of five.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

And if the other. And if the other. And if our. If my team goes up two to one, I'll start cheering for the other team. I just, for some reason, I always cheer for the underdog.

[Ro Khanna]

You know, I grew up in Philadelphia. It was the Rocky story, right? And that's. That's thing. Like, Rocky is the underdog, and we're.

[Theo Vaughn]

Supposed to be the ones there to help, right?

[Ro Khanna]

Right.

[Theo Vaughn]

We're supposed to be the ones there to help. And if your country isn't even going to do that at a level that's grandiose, right. Then what. What makes you want to go home and do that at your own level, you know, like, well, you'll, you'll still do that, but you won't do it in feeling that you are supported by your country. And yeah, I don't want people to go die over there. I don't think that it's, it doesn't feel right to me. And that's okay. Some people might be like, well, you're not a political pundit. I don't give a shit.

[Ro Khanna]

But you know what?

[Theo Vaughn]

You know, I don't care if I am or not. I am a human being and you're a citizen. And I am a citizen. And I, some people like, well, you're lucky to be a citizen. Yeah, but I have to, I'm a citizen. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm a citizen. I think the Native Americans should get things back.

[Ro Khanna]

And you know what? Your voice hasn't been corrupted. I think part of the challenge in politics is you get surrounded with so many of these interest groups. You get surrounded by how you're going to raise money. You get surrounded by all these foreign policy thinkers.

[Theo Vaughn]

Dude, we're working together. I didn't realize it. Ro, I hate to interrupt you, but right now my question is. Yeah, Ro, one thing I like about you is I feel like you're a black sheep. You take a lot of unpopular stances. That's something I really admire. One of those is not accepting lobby from PACs or PACs. We hear about them a lot of times. So my listeners, you hear about these PACs, it means political action committee. Right? And I'm reading this. Just give me a break, guys, real quick. We are at a point, I believe, where a lot of people are starting to see that neither party really represents the people. That's the, that's the feeling that I'm hearing people say. I've heard Candace Owens say it and you know, she's, you know, very much been a kind of a Republican role model. I feel like, or at least have some influence of that. I feel like she's also kind of in a lane of her own. Parties have been unable to keep businesses and lobbyists away from politics. In 2025, lobbying was at an all time high of 4.44 billion. I believe that's a couple sites said that online. The sites could be lying. How can we know who is accepting lobby money? First of all, how do we know.

[Ro Khanna]

That you know, so first of all, take a guess how many lobbyists there are in Washington right now. Ballpark.

[Theo Vaughn]

Twelve thousand.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah. Ten thousand. That's pretty good. Ten thousand.

[Theo Vaughn]

They're hiding a couple thousand. You know it.

[Ro Khanna]

Ten thousand. Think there are five hundred members of Congress. That's five hundred and thirty five, right? Members of Congress, senators. That's twenty to one. Right. You play football. Like, imagine you got twenty people. You're wide receiver. You got twenty people covering you.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

Now let me give you a concrete example of how this stuff works. Pharma lobbyists, right? Just big pharma. There are about 1200 big pharma lobbyists. So it's about two and a half to one for every member of Congress. I'm sure you know, people who want to get some drug, prescription drugs I'm talking about, and it's too much money, right. And they skip it. Do you know folks?

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, yeah, totally, I do.

[Ro Khanna]

So Donald Trump, one of the good things he does is he puts out an executive order and he says Americans shouldn't pay more for any of these prescription drugs than people in other parts of the world.

[Theo Vaughn]

Right.

[Ro Khanna]

You know, I've had people who, like, go to a foreign country to get the drug because they don't want to pay them. I can't afford to pay the drugs.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah. One night I'm hanging out with the girl and, you know, we had. We've been on a couple dates. I thought I was. We're gonna maybe smooch a little. It's 11pm she's like. She's like, I have to go drive to Mexico.

[Ro Khanna]

Are you serious?

[Theo Vaughn]

I'm not even joking. She's like, I have to drive to Mexico to get Ozempic. And she's like, if I leave now, the hours are best for driving there and back. And I was like, oh, God.

[Ro Khanna]

So the way to her heart was, like, getting her this drug.

[Theo Vaughn]

I'm not riding with her, you know, but I definitely. I gave her a little bit of gas money, you know, because I hope to see her again. But, yeah, anyway, anyway, it's crazy, right?

[Ro Khanna]

I mean, we're. We're paying for all these drugs to be developed. You and I pay the NIH to develop all these drugs. Then the big pharma sells them at a profit to Americans, and basically the rest of the world gets these drugs at a fraction of the cost, right?

[Theo Vaughn]

So we're subsidizing their cost over there.

[Ro Khanna]

We're subsidizing their cost. Now, one, someone could say, okay, Mexico or some of these developing countries, fine, you. They should have these drugs cheaper. But we're subsidizing Great Britain, we're subsidizing Japan. We're subsidizing Europe. These are rich countries. We're subsidizing Switzerland. So Donald Trump, one thing that I agree with, he comes out and he says Americans shouldn't pay a higher price than any other industrialized country.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

I'm the first congressperson actually to introduce his executive order as a law. I said, okay, because the executive order, you know, the pharma just will sue it and tie it up in court and nothing's going to happen.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah. Because he had another one with price transparency. Right. Exactly where it was like all the, all the prices of, of, of. If you go get an mri, whatever it is, it needs to be like a menu. Like, you go to McDonald's, you know how much it costs.

[Ro Khanna]

Right.

[Theo Vaughn]

Because without a menu, they can just charge you later whatever they want. Right. Which is part of the whole bait and switch of the insurance system, is part of the whole shell game. That was another executive order, but that hasn't been enacted. Like, how do you. We get these things to actually happen? Like, why do they stop at an executive order? Because there's always this pomp and circumstance.

[Ro Khanna]

Right.

[Theo Vaughn]

It's an executive order, but it never.

[Ro Khanna]

Gets followed through because it gets tied up in courts and they get sued and they say, well, Congress didn't authorize it. So I, look, I actually give Trump some credit for putting it out there, but he knows, everyone knows it can't actually make a difference until it becomes a law.

[Theo Vaughn]

And who sues it? The pharma company.

[Ro Khanna]

The pharma company sue it. They, they've got a whole industry of lawyers, of lobbyists, and they, they come out and they, they sue them. And they're, by the way, they're making record profits and, and they say, oh, we need this money to do research and innovation. Give me a break. They're, they're, they have those profits. They're buying back their stock. They're giving out dividends. Their executives are making tons of money.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, yeah, they're buying fricking Corvettes, dude. They're doing it. But they are. They're all probably live Corvettes. And they don't care. That's the thing. They don't care. But how. So how do we stop that system? Right. First of all, do you believe that system can actually be stopped?

[Ro Khanna]

I do. I do. And I'll give you two examples. Why? Because we did it with big Tobacco. You remember that when tobacco basically had Washington D.C. bought. And then there was a campaign that said, free kids from tobacco, and bring that up.

[Theo Vaughn]

I want to see A picture that some kid with a smoke, if they let him. They used to.

[Ro Khanna]

There it is. Yeah. Campaign for.

[Theo Vaughn]

The Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids, an American nonprofit membership organization established in 1995 with Bill Novelli as its first president. Okay, so that happened in 1995, and that had an effect.

[Ro Khanna]

Well, it was them. It was grassroots organizing. There was a hearing in front of Congress. They brought in all these tobacco executives, and basically the tobacco executives are seen lying to the American public saying, yeah, we know that this stuff is addictive. And that had a huge impact. There was laws that got passed that said, you can't sell tobacco cigarettes to kids. You have to disclose the addictive quality. So we stood up to big tobacco. We also did it one other time in this country, famously. I don't know if you know what DDT is.

[Theo Vaughn]

Ddt? Yeah, definitely. It's in the yard, brother. Yeah, it's in the grass. Right.

[Ro Khanna]

You know, it's the fertilizers.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

And there was this woman, Rachel Carson, she exposed that it was hurting your health. It was hurting. Or the birds, it was hurting the ecosystem. And that led to Congress saying, no, we're going to ban DDT for a lot of different uses. We got to do the same thing in standing up with pharma. How much money does pharma spend? $380 million a year.

[Theo Vaughn]

In lobbying or in commercials? You mean?

[Ro Khanna]

And just in lobbying.

[Theo Vaughn]

Now, does lobbying include commercials? That means paying to congressmen and reps.

[Ro Khanna]

That's paying to Congress people and reps. That's like money that is going to congressmen, to representatives, to state legislators. So I introduced this bill, right, saying, okay, let's do what Donald Trump wants. Let's do what Bernie Sanders wants. Like, how can we disagree on this? Let's take it to pharma so Americans don't pay more. I get two Republicans who co sponsor it. Representative Luna and Representative Biggs.

[Theo Vaughn]

Bring them up. Bring up Luna and Biggs, first of all. And if that's not a animated series, I don't even know it sounds also like it could be a rap group. Looney and Biggs, we got a shot him. So that's Andy Biggs. He's a legitimate guy.

[Ro Khanna]

He's a legitimate guy. I mean, look, I mean, disagree on things, but, like, he's willing to stand up for what he believes. Representative Luna, she's willing to stand up.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, dude. I was just looking at her online yesterday. I like her. I mean, she has her. I like what she says. You know what I'm saying? I like her energy.

[Ro Khanna]

She's, she's, she, she has an independence. And I got a few of the Democrats to be on board with this. Obviously, they, they don't want Americans being overcharged for prescription drugs. I mean, this was part of Bernie's whole campaign.

[Theo Vaughn]

And now people are, are there also people telling you that they got on board or, or did it come down to a vote? How did it end up?

[Ro Khanna]

So right now we don't even have a, we don't have a vote. We, we should have every single person in Congress co sponsoring this. The way Congress works is you got to get to about a hundred people to co sponsor it and then the speaker calls up a vote on the issue. But because you got Big Pharma's lobbying money. Well, they, they're so cynical. They don't say, they don't try to stop, convince people to vote against it. They try to stop the Congress people from the speaker from bringing it for a vote.

[Theo Vaughn]

So they would like, they would invest in Mike Johnson.

[Ro Khanna]

They'll invest. Not just in Mike Johnson, they'll invest.

[Theo Vaughn]

Is that libel or slander for saying that? No, no.

[Ro Khanna]

I mean, it's just.

[Theo Vaughn]

They would lobby with. They would try to lobby Mike Johnson.

[Ro Khanna]

They'll try to lobby Mike Johnson. But, you know, there's this, this quote that I love from Dr. King. He said, attack the evil system, not the individuals who happen to be caught up in the evil system.

[Theo Vaughn]

Okay, got it.

[Ro Khanna]

So, yeah, there's some egregious cases. The problem is the system is rotten, okay? And the, they are pouring money into different campaigns, into different lobbyists and basically are not going to allow a vote on this because they don't. Because they know if there's a vote and someone votes against Donald Trump and against lowering prescription drugs, the American people will be furious.

[Theo Vaughn]

They're going to know who they are.

[Ro Khanna]

Are going to know they are right.

[Theo Vaughn]

And then we can call them out by name.

[Ro Khanna]

So they just don't want anyone to, to do it. And this is how, this is the game. This is why we don't get Medicare for All, why we don't have health insurance. Health insurance is not that we have. We haven't had a vote on Medicare for All. This is why we still have fossil fuel subsidies. We haven't had a vote to get rid of fossil fuel subsidies. This is why we still have a defense budget that is over a trillion dollars. We don't get votes on cutting out the excessive contracts. I mean, it's. The game is to stop the vote. And so it let Me ask you. The thing I wanted to ask you actually the most in this conversation is do you know people who are just like, yeah, I'm done with politics because I don't think I can make a difference. You know, it's just.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, yeah, I'm saying. That's what I'm telling. That's what I've noticed in the past months on some of my favorite shows that I listen to and watch, people are like, oh, I see now neither. Nobody has our side. Neither one of these groups, it feels like, have our side. You feel like it's just all these articles. It's like, well, here's an article about this is going to happen. And then people get in an uproar about it, but nobody. It's almost like it's all algorithm perfectly to the amount of our attention span where it just fades out of like the. The zeitgeist of discussion. And zeitgeist just means like the circle of discussion at the moment, I think. But so it's just like it just fade and then the next ball hits the air, you're like, oh, look at that. When that's it, transgender something, you know that one. Then it's like, oh, racism again. Here I am, you know, forget about me. And then it. But it's the same after a while, you just like, I've seen this show so many times. I think even our DNA is sick. So I think you're having newborn children that are like, this is because even I think it's in our DNA now, how long the charade has been going on. And that's where I see people are like, at a point where they're just at a loss. How can that be stopped? How can that sort of thing actually be stopped? Can we do anything or does it have to fall on our representatives?

[Ro Khanna]

The representatives aren't going to change things. And this is my biggest concern for the country, that people keep getting disillusioned. They're like, I can't change anything. I'm just going to focus on my own life. Every two years, every four years, you get congresspeople, presidents, saying they're going to do something. They do some executive order, it gets tied up in courts. Big pharma blocks any reform, and what's the point, right? And then the problem is that the less people get engaged, the more power, the more these lobbyists and moneyed interests have. Because they don't want the engagement. No, they're perfectly fine with the system. And they're like, okay, we, we will keep supporting our Members of Congress and presidents, every four years, they'll run on change, nothing actually changes, and let people get more and more disillusioned. That's what's going on in this.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah, I mean, look, we, I believe that we've entered like a privatized communism. That's what I say a lot.

[Ro Khanna]

That's exactly pretty good.

[Theo Vaughn]

What it seems like we're in. Right. And you're sitting here telling me that our vote doesn't even really matter. So, yeah, people are getting disillusioned. Like, like, but what do we do?

[Ro Khanna]

So, but that's why I gave that example of tobacco and ddt. When the country actually mobilizes, when they're like, we're done with, like, what do.

[Theo Vaughn]

We need to do? Buy a Jeep or whatever.

[Ro Khanna]

Well, I think one of the things you go do is, like, look at who's taking money from these interest groups.

[Theo Vaughn]

Okay, that, Is there a site that we can look at where that's reported?

[Ro Khanna]

Open secrets.org open secrets.org ye.

[Theo Vaughn]

Crack that bit open, Cat. I know Chuck Schumer's on it, you.

[Ro Khanna]

Know, and, and everyone.

[Theo Vaughn]

Is that slander or not? I say, yeah, yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

I think you're. I think you're pretty. You're. Well, not even close to the line of slander.

[Theo Vaughn]

We're not.

[Ro Khanna]

No, we're not.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, good. Oh, yeah. That little money monkey's taking something. But you can find it on open secret side or you can find out how much each person gets.

[Ro Khanna]

And from where, you can find out how much each. So I don't take any pack money. Right. I don't take any lobbyist money. But you can even find out individuals aggregated how much they're getting. And then if they're getting money, fine. But then look at their voting record. Are they. Are they voting on against big pharma, Are they voting against the big insurance companies? So first is just being aware. But the second thing is we've got a demand that people have a vote on getting lower prescription drug prices.

[Theo Vaughn]

Who do we ask that for from? Mike Johnson.

[Ro Khanna]

Mike Johnson.

[Theo Vaughn]

And we got to say he's from Louisiana.

[Ro Khanna]

He's from Louisiana and he's.

[Theo Vaughn]

So I'll say it right now. Mike Johnson. Why don't you put the vote up? I mean, everybody wants this. Everybody is tired of paying, of watching people medical debts, the number one cause of bankruptcy in America. We know that it's bipartisan. Right. It means both partisans like it.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah. I mean, Trump, it's Trump's bill. I mean Trump's executive bill.

[Theo Vaughn]

Just help us do. Give us something. You know what I'm saying?

[Ro Khanna]

Two things he could do a vote on. One is stopping the war in Iran. I mean that he can Massie. And my bill, he has to give us a vote on it unless he play. Plays games. And then two, let's just focus on big pharma. Getting. Getting big pharma.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah. Let's start with one lobby. Let's start with one big lobby. I think it's just the, it's like give us something, man. I was like. Because you know what I'm saying, he's from Louisiana. So like that Louisiana is a state where it's like, it's mostly about like people, right. Peer to peer. It's like, it's like the state, it doesn't have a lot of. I don't think we have one top. We don't have one Fortune 500 company. I don't think in the whole state. Maybe enter G. But I think that they left. So we're a low income state. But the one thing that we do have is each other's backs. Right. And I just can't imagine that Mr. Johnson wouldn't bring this to the floor. To the floor. Is that it?

[Ro Khanna]

To the floor? Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

Bring it to the floor, Mike. You know what I'm saying, bro? Like if people are sick, people are, people are sick, man. People are dying. You don't want to bring it to the floor. I think that's. Now if you are bringing it to the floor and Rose not telling me the truth, then I'm sorry, Mike.

[Ro Khanna]

Right.

[Theo Vaughn]

I'm sorry, dude.

[Ro Khanna]

And I, I got a good relationship with my giants.

[Theo Vaughn]

Awesome.

[Ro Khanna]

But. But someone has just got to say he's a cool guy, but he's got.

[Theo Vaughn]

Keys to the janitor's closet and it's time to get the. It's time to get the broom out and, and sweep this out from under the rug. That's what I feel like.

[Ro Khanna]

And you know what will happen if there's one time we take on one of these lobbying groups, Whether it's big.

[Theo Vaughn]

Pharma, the rest will get scared.

[Ro Khanna]

Big insurance big. The rest get scared. And it's going to give hope to this country. Yeah. My voice matters. Yeah. I can get involved. Yeah. I can bring change. I mean, we have been voting for change in this country since Barack Obama. Every, every four years, every two years. Like, kick him out. Let's try someone else.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

And no one.

[Theo Vaughn]

And we put in a mixed guy. You know, it's like, dang, we got an Indian they're trying everything.

[Ro Khanna]

They're even trying the Indian guy. I mean, the country is. The country is like, who do we need? They don't care about Indian black woman. They're just like, get me someone who's going to actually bring change.

[Theo Vaughn]

Give me. It's like, give me somebody with some balls. That's one reason why I support a lot of trans stuff, because I'm like. And maybe one of these women will have enough balls on them to fucking get us to where we need to be. Like, if. If that's where we're at, where we have to attach balls to an emotional sense of empathy that a lot of times in a woman and that's who we need to get us over this hill of bullshit that we keep climbing up, then maybe that's what we need.

[Ro Khanna]

And you know what? It struck me when you said Louisiana doesn't have one Fortune 500 company. You know, I represent Silicon Valley, you know, in my district.

[Theo Vaughn]

Hold on.

[Ro Khanna]

You know my district.

[Theo Vaughn]

Dude, we're about to go in. All right, you and I spoke on the phone about. This is crazy, bro.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

Did you read this somehow? Which are you that os menalist guy?

[Ro Khanna]

I mean.

[Theo Vaughn]

No, you're not.

[Ro Khanna]

I'm not sorry.

[Theo Vaughn]

It said, and I'm sorry. I'm going back to my notes and thank you, man, for talking about this stuff with me, man. It even helps. Just like one thing I noticed, even we spoke on the phone the other night, man, and it just like after I got on the phone with you, I felt a little better. I was like, at least I have somebody to talk about this with. Dude, yesterday I'm leaving this restaurant and a guy comes up to me, he's missing a tooth, or he was missing one. And he was like, hey, man, thanks for speaking up about Palestine stuff. And I said, well, honestly, I don't know a ton about it. It's just kind of how I feel. And he goes, well, I think a lot of people are just afraid to speak up. They're afraid if they speak against Israel that they're going to be labeled an anti Semite. And I was like, oh, no. I said, I understand that, but I think that's just a verbal trap, you know, I said, you can have like, I have tons of Jewish friends that I talk to every day. And. And I don't think what Yetan Yahoo is doing is good. But anyway, don't undersell yourself.

[Ro Khanna]

You have more common sense and your values than 90% of the foreign policy blob that has gotten us into all these wars, and that has compromised our humanity. There's a reason the founders wanted Congress to be making decisions about war and peace. They trusted the American people. Right. Like the kings of the past when the founders were there, they would just do wars for their own glory. And the American people were really. The founders were really suspicious of that. And they. So they said, you know what? We actually trust the farmers and the people in factories and ordinary Americans not to get us into all this stuff. And they trusted people like you, Theo. And the problem is that your voice has gotten out of Washington and not central to it, but now we've got all these podcasts and they can't ignore you. So good for you to try to take back citizen voices. That's what this country was supposed to be.

[Theo Vaughn]

Well, yeah, thanks, man. I can't sit on the, like, what the fuck do I have to do with anything, dude? That's a shit that, like, I'm like.

[Ro Khanna]

Good, you're a citizen right now. Corrupted.

[Theo Vaughn]

But then you're just shocked and you're like, this means, like, it's, it's. I think it just always blows my mind.

[Ro Khanna]

I think the test in politics is like, pretty simple. They're two basic tests to politics. Do you believe that the American people are smarter and wiser and have good values, or do you believe in like a bunch of experts and elites? Like, I fundamentally believe, like, if we just allowed and listened to people, normal people, we'd be much better off in this country. And the second is like, do you love and believe in this country? And I do. I think we're a good country. I think we're the good guys. And most Americans want to be the good guys. And like, we've gotten away from that.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

Because we got so many intermediate, moneyed interest, lobbying interests, PhD, foreign policy experts who are corrupting the process.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, yeah, they're corrupt, man. They're bought and paid for. They're spies. They're spies. And the sick part is, to me, they're just killing themselves. They're killing the future of their children's imagination. Think of all the little things that you are hampering. But then I guess, you know, money, you know, when you see things happen with money and it's hard to. To. To prevent. So like you said, don't point at the person. Try and point at the overall issue. But I love that. Open secret.org or come opensecrets.org they can.

[Ro Khanna]

They could do an analysis on everyone. They can do it on me. They can do it. And you Know, it's not like people know there's no one who's perfect in American politics.

[Theo Vaughn]

Let's look at Mike Johnson. All right, I'll look at him right now. He's not going to be happy about it. I'm sorry, Mike.

[Ro Khanna]

He's a good man. He's a man of faith. But, like. Like, the whole point is, like, maybe he ends up actually putting this for a vote. I mean, that would be. See, but like, all these things.

[Theo Vaughn]

Imagine being fucking Paul Revere, you know what I'm saying? That's what he has a chance to be. Because then we could all hold these people like, you fucking vote for this, or you will never be back in this thing again.

[Ro Khanna]

Seriously.

[Theo Vaughn]

I think that's what people can do. Why doesn't Open Secrets have an app that makes it really. Is it very easy, the interface for people to be able to navigate how to find out who gets what and whatever?

[Ro Khanna]

It's pretty easy. You can do it. Like, I would look at two things. One, how much money do they get from PACs, which are the PACs? How much money do they get from lobbyists, and what are the industry groups? Now, if they're taking money and they're still voting against those groups, fine. But what raises red flags is when they're taking money and they're not bringing something for a vote or they're voting with those industry groups, right?

[Theo Vaughn]

This says, Top contributors for 20, 22, 23 for Mr. Johnson, American Israel Public Affairs Committee.

[Ro Khanna]

And that gets to the vote on Iran, right?

[Theo Vaughn]

That's aipac. Right?

[Ro Khanna]

That's aipac. And like, Massie and I have shown independence on that. So, okay, bring this vote so we don't get into war on Iran or. And don't be beholden to groups who are telling you, no, no, no, let's just go along with Netanyahu and strike Iran. Like, it's fucking.

[Theo Vaughn]

It's absolutely crazy. And you know what the craziest thing is, is that we've had Thomas Massey schedule to come in for, like, a month, right?

[Ro Khanna]

He's great. Yeah, well, he's one of the smartest members of Congress.

[Theo Vaughn]

He's a maverick. That's what I like. I think you and him both are mavericks. That's one thing that I admire about you, is that you make choices that feel like your own, right? And the odds that you guys have a bill together and then you're here today and he's coming tomorrow.

[Ro Khanna]

So is he coming tomorrow? That's awesome.

[Theo Vaughn]

I wanted to put you on the same day so you at least get to say, hey, but. But maybe, maybe in the future.

[Ro Khanna]

We've done stuff. We've done a lot of stuff together. We both have like people in our own parties who get upset because we take stances that are independent. We work across the. But isn't that what Congress is supposed to be like? I mean, when you have a conversation with your buddies, do you always agree with like three of them and then have three of the others always disagree? It's like so irrational. Usually, like you'll agree with someone on one thing and you'll disagree on something else. And yet in Congress, it's like you got these two teams and they're always supposed to be with their own parties. That's not how people actually are in real life. They want people who just think for themselves.

[Theo Vaughn]

I agree. And the craziest part is they're on two teams, but they should be playing for the same group, right?

[Ro Khanna]

Team America.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yes. And the fact that there, it's like it always feels. The craziest part is it feels like it's you as a citizen against your own, against. That's what it feels like. Now. It doesn't feel like this person. It feels like that in the voting, like they're gonna. And then it feels like it just changes. Once they get over that hill, you never see them again.

[Ro Khanna]

You know what?

[Theo Vaughn]

Mike Johnson's a Louisiana boy and I think that he'll do the right thing, man. And I. But I could help keep tabs on who votes for the right thing that they're supposed to vote for because it's, it's unbelievable. It's. It's. We are literally. It's still ddt, but it's prescription drugs and we're killing our own people, you know? This show is sponsored by Liquid iv. I like staying hydrated, baby. It's important to me. It's important to me just to get just dang. Just get to a cellular level. I like to hear them little babies getting drenched inside of me. That's who I am. And Liquid iv, well, they help me now. Mostly I enjoy the sugar free options that they have. White, peach, lemon, lime, rainbow sherbet and more. They've got them and they just released their new sugar free flavor. Arctic raspberry. I just love. I just get my water bottle, open it up, hit it with that stick of Liquid iv. Bam. Shake it up. Doused, doused, and my cells are filling, hydrated. That's it. No matter what your summer brings, tear poor and live more. Go to liquid IV. Dot com and get 20 off your first order with code THEO at checkout. That's 20 off your first order with code [e-mail] Getting your sweat on might seem like hard work, but with Symmetry Sauna, it's a work of art. Premium custom saunas for your home or business. Plus a series of sleek pre built saunas. I just got myself a symmetry sauna and I'm sweating out bad decisions. Like the time I tried to just fill my own chipped tooth in. Why sauna? Well, it relieves sore joints and muscles, improves skin, boosts heart health, and melts stress like hot butter. Hmm. And I'm finally sleeping like a baby, which is rare since I'm usually up at 3am Wondering if penguins have knees. Pro athletes, fitness buffs. Big folks getting small, small folks getting big. Everybody's hot. Boxing and symmetry saunas can help. Designed in the usa. Made with aspen wood from ancient Estonian forests. Ooh. Yep. Fancy trees. Symmetry Sauna, the perfect balance of form and function. Learn more about how to get your own premium home sauna from Symmetry sauna@ symmetry sauna.com T H E O okay, so you and I spoke on the phone about the tech lobby.

[Ro Khanna]

Right.

[Theo Vaughn]

And that was something that I had never even heard the term before.

[Ro Khanna]

The lobby.

[Theo Vaughn]

Never heard of it. Your district in California because you're a Democratic congressman, right?

[Ro Khanna]

Correct.

[Theo Vaughn]

From California.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

Your district is home to five companies worth over $1 trillion.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

That includes Apple, Google, Nvidia, Tesla and Broadcom. While half the country is de industrialized and dependent. You guys are. You're in part of a view of you represent a very special district.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

How big is that tech lobby? Who are the biggest players? And are there multiple tech lobbies fighting against each other?

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah. Well, first let me just say that part of the problem in this country is that we've got $14 trillion in my district and five companies over a trillion dollars. And Louisiana doesn't have a single company in the Fortune 500. Like, how did we allow this to happen in America, where all the wealth is piling up in Silicon Valley.

[Theo Vaughn]

And one, sorry, there are two Fortune 500 companies headquartered in Louisiana, Entergy and Lumen Technologies. And I'm sorry about that, guys, but.

[Ro Khanna]

Even that, right, you got two companies and you have $5 trillion companies in one district. And a lot of what we've got to figure out is all these places like Johnstown, Pennsylvania, Lorraine, Ohio, Downriver, Michigan places totally hollowed out. You go there and there's 30% hotel occupancy and Then they're looking at Silicon Valley making more money than any time in human history in the world. Like, how in America did we allow this to happen? It's crazy. It's incoming, it's sad, and it's unconscionable, but is there a tech lobby? Yeah, there's a tech lobby. Let me tell you, one of the things that has been in the news that I know you've discussed Palantir. Right. And the. The contracts that they're getting. $113 million to create this database on Americans. And I, you know, I know you asked someone.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah, yeah, I did. I'm gonna. I asked JD Vance about Palantir because I'm scared of it. Right.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

This is just on my thing. That's so crazy, dude. We are like this bananas. I asked JD Vance about Palantir because I'm scared of it. I feel. Felt like he gave kind of a political answer to me. Right. Which is no judgment. I did. That's what I felt like. I want our listeners to know why I'm concerned. Well, one of the reasons is that Paler got a $795 million contract with the US army for the Maven Smart system, which is using artificial intelligence tools for data fusion and target identification. And then a $30 million contract from the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement to develop an operating system that identifies undocumented immigrants and tracks self deportations. So one of the things that's going on is that it feels like to me that they are asking palate or they are. They've granted Palantir the opportunity to create this overall database. And that is one thing that J.D. did talk about. So maybe he didn't give that just a political answer. He said he believes that it's just an overall database where, like, the local police department will now have the them in the irs, every irs. Everything will be synced up so that if you're involved in something in the world, everything will. All the databases will be linked. Right now, I felt like he would maybe know more about it because he has a relationship with this guy Peter Thiel, who is one of the founders of it or something. But I don't know if that's true. Right. And maybe he didn't give me a political answer. I think it felt. I don't know. You know what? Maybe it's just. It wasn't the exact answer I wanted. Right. And so that's why I'm kind of framing it like that. So. Yeah. I don't want to say that. It just felt. Yeah. I think it wasn't kind of what I wanted to hear. But that's also part of diplomacy, right? It's like I learned that recently. It's like everything is. You're not going to get everything right. Nobody gets everything. But anyway, that's what it said is this overall database. And to me, I'm thinking, dude, if they have an overall database, right, and they know every. They're going to know everything. To me, it feels like they. That. That they'll just have this, like, all your information, your bank card, your blood type, they'll know if you prayed this morning, they'll know just by, like, biometrics or whatever. If you've hit your knees, they'll know. If you're feeling hopeful, they'll know all of these things. Right. What are things that we don't see coming from this Palantir deal? Do you think that those fears are realistic? What do you think?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, I'm concerned. Let me tell you what, how I see the facts. First of all, I don't want to dunk on the vice president because I saw some of the interview, and I love the fact that you have people here of different viewpoints. But he's got a particular view. I mean, Peter Thiel founded Palantir. Peter Thiel also, I mean, it's public record. Put $15 million into his campaign.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah, we talked about that.

[Ro Khanna]

To make him a senator. So I'm not saying. I'm not questioning him. I'm just saying he's got a view of a relationship with Palantir. And. And we've got to figure out what are the objective facts. I mean, the Palantir was founded by Peter Thiel, and it was founded by CIA. It's in Q Tel. Right. This is what funds it.

[Theo Vaughn]

CIA is. What do you mean?

[Ro Khanna]

The CIA has a venture capital firm.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh.

[Ro Khanna]

Called In Q Tel. In Q Tel, they gave the money initially for Palantir.

[Theo Vaughn]

Okay.

[Ro Khanna]

There are certain things that Palantir does that are important to our country. They're using AI for military applications so that our fighter pilots can identify targets. Right. We need certain things to make sure that we're the leading military in the world. The problem is on this database that they're creating about Americans. Right. And here's what they can do. They're not collecting the data. They keep saying, I'm a data aggregator. That means they're creating the program, the software where the government puts in the data, your financial records, your health records, your employment records. They can buy your social media records, and they put it in. And Palantir spits out information. Now, let me give you a concrete example of why this could be dangerous. Let's say you're a comedian. You know, you know comedians, Right. My guess is before you became Theo Vaughn, there were times where as a comedian, you did shows that made you maybe 5,000 bucks a night. And maybe then you'd go a while and not make anything or make 500 bucks. Right. You got good shows, bad shows.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, yeah. I mean, we made 25. Yeah, 100 bucks. Yeah, for sure.

[Ro Khanna]

And I'm sure you have still friends who are in stand up comedy and who have good nights and bad nights. Now, Palantir, this database suddenly flags and does an algorithm. And if someone's having income here and there, they say, well, is this person a risk for tax evasion? And suddenly they're getting audited because they're making a predictive model that comedians stand up comedians should be making $70,000 a year, and this person isn't disclosing their income. Are they a risk? We don't know with Palantir what their algorithm is targeting. Are they targeting ordinary people who have incomes that are variable, or they are targeting the billionaires who are evading taxes? It's just a black box. We don't know what data of your friends or my friends is being collected and whether they're actually creating a database. All we need to do is have transparency. I have three simple things that I think we should be able to get. Get consensus around. Your data should not be collected without your consent. You need to know what data of yours the federal government has. The federal government should not have any of your data that they don't absolutely need to provide you a service. And then when Palantir, we should know what their algorithms are. What are. Are they doing this to get audit people who are like making 50 grand because they're accusing him of tax evasion? Are they targeting their algorithms on the very rich or on ordinary folks? What if you're. What if you have a social media post that says things that are critical of the government? Is that information now the government has? It's like a whole black box.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah, it's very scary. It's very scary, too, because what if another country says, hey, Palantir, you're our friends. Why don't you target these people in America so we can start to bring them down? Right? Why don't you start to adjust their scores? Hey, why don't you. Why do you. Why don't you not. Why don't you make It. So that it. It makes it look like these people have already paid their taxes. If they have. You know, I'm saying, like, right, there's just all these little things that could be plausible based on whoever owns the information, like whoever owns Palantir, whoever owns that algorithm is going to be able to basically puppeteer so many things that could be possible. And even if they're not doing it, there's the fear that they could be.

[Ro Khanna]

Doing the fear they could. And there are no laws right now. Right. We need laws saying, show us your algorithms. Have an audit of the algorithms. Who are you targeting? How do we make sure that you're not using this in a negative way? And basically, like, Americans should know what data people have about.

[Theo Vaughn]

I agree. I agree with you, 100, man. And I want to say those also. And I don't want, like, a company like Palantir to think like, you're bullying me or you're doing this or that they just happen to be the company that has been picked. And it's a scary time. It's already so scary with, like, technology, everything happening so fast. It's spooky.

[Ro Khanna]

And you have a nuanced view. Look, I have a nuanced view. There's things that Palantir does that are important for a military. Like just saying, oh, Palantir is all bad would be unfair to what they're doing on the pandemic, they helped with distribution, or what they've done on the military. The point is, though, this American database building is scary. And trying to predict whether someone is being a tax delinquent or not, trying to predict if they're going to be a financial risk, trying to figure out a profile on them. And what we need. I really blame the lawmakers because what we need is the laws to protect people's privacy, to protect people's data, to protect the use of these algorithms.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah, I agree 100%. And we're going to get to that. I know you have the Internet Bill of Rights, and so we're going to get to that in a second. Yeah. This is the push. I want to say this. The push has put a key Palantir product called Foundry into at least four federal agencies, including dhs, HHS and others, widely. Adopting Foundry, which organizes and analyzes data, paves the way for Mr. Trump to easily merge information from different agencies, the government officials said. And that's what JD Vance said when he was here. Right. He was saying, and I'm reading that off of the New York Times, give or take what you think about them. But that's what J.D. vance had said, that he thought it was just this overall compiling, this kind of aggregating of information. Right. He didn't think it would get super specific. So I do, you know, I don't think he, it felt a little political, but that also could just be what he exactly believes and that could be exactly what's happening. I think the, there's just a lot of fear with it, a lot of it says in here. Also, creating detailed portraits of Americans based on government data is not just a pipe dream. The Trump administration has already sought access to hundreds of data points on citizens and others through government databases, including their bank account numbers, the amount of their student debt, medical claims, disability status, etc. So this will just, I mean, I think this whole thing just goes further down that line and I don't even have just like knowing everything about everyone and I don't even think that it's, it's Republican or Democrat. I just think it's where we are in time right now with technology and that it's very scary and that you can start to see how big the tech lobby is. I want to say this one thing about Palantir though, that a lot of people have had issues with is what they're doing in Gaza, right, with AI targeting. And this is off of, I read this online and so that makes it probably incredible, but allegedly Palantir software is reportedly used by the Israeli military to help select targets in Gaza. Its data mining and AI systems can process intelligence reports, communication intercepts and surveillance data to generate lists of potential targets in a matter of minutes, a process that previously took hours. Lavender and Habsora, which are two of the. They're kind of, I guess programs or overall idea names. And Habsura means the gospel. Investigations indicate that two AI systems, Lavender and Habsura, are at the core of this collaboration. Lavender assigns Palestinians a threat score based on metadata, social media and movement patterns. These systems reportedly operate with significant error margins and their recommendations can be enough to authorize deadly strikes, sometimes with minimal human oversight. Gaza is described as a live laboratory for these AI technologies where new systems are trained, tested and refined in real time combat conditions before being marked globally as battle tested solutions. I think that's where a lot of the fear is. It really is if that can happen there and this they're capable of that, then how do I know if when I'm walking down the street that some decision I made years ago or something, a bullet's not just going to fly out of anywhere and go through my head from a drone or something, you know, that I think is the big fear about this. And I think some people don't even know it.

[Ro Khanna]

I think the big fear with technology.

[Theo Vaughn]

Is that crazy for me to say that?

[Ro Khanna]

No, I mean, I don't think it's crazy to fear that machines should not control human beings. Right. I mean, we. Look, technology can do a lot of good, it can do a lot of bad. But the key principle here is, are human beings going to be in charge? From what you described, it looks like that AI is being used. They're selecting targeting. And the biggest negative in that whole paragraph you read is without human oversight, I mean, you still need a human being saying, okay, wait, we're not just going to go do strikes because AI tells us there's a risk. There's some women and children there. Let's not have those strikes. There's a hospital there. Right. And I think that one of the things we need to adopt for the United States is there has to be a human being making decisions before any military use, any military strike.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah. At least give me the fat guy with the donut sitting there and be like, nah, forget it.

[Ro Khanna]

Nah, nah, nah. He's. It's like, we're now going to be. We're celebrating. We're celebrating. He would. I rather have a human being because there's some compassion. There's. That, there's some sense of guilt. AI is not going to feel guilty. He's not going to feel a compassion. Air is not going to have any accountability.

[Theo Vaughn]

AI doesn't even go to sleep at night. How can you trust something that doesn't even go to sleep at night?

[Ro Khanna]

Right.

[Theo Vaughn]

You know, that doesn't even give God a chance to rebuild the inside of it while it's resting.

[Ro Khanna]

That's very beautiful. Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

I do not understand this man. And that's very scary. And that happens. It's happening. Allegedly. I want to say that it's allegedly, you can go look up for yourself happening in Gaza. That this. And it. To me, it does start to feel like that you're like, it has been such a masker. They are so overabundant. I mean, you. It's basically people climbing into holes of rubble looking for pieces of p. Of their children and family members. And it's like we're watching it all. It's. It really does feel like, am I, am I now part of some sick experiment? Like, how long do I sit and watch before I raise my hand or say something or at least some Part of me that has a voice inside of me like, says, I don't want, just take me out. I don't want to be in this game anymore. I don't, I don't like it, man. I don't like it. We're going to keep it moving right there because we have some other stuff that I wanted to say. Oh, I wanted to think about this with you at some point. Like if we lay this layer of technology over our society, right, and whether we do it now or it's in the future with AI, this all knowing kind of layer that knows, like if you've eaten, knows your blood pressure, knows how far you've walked today, knows how much money you have, knows the emojis you sent recently to kind of get a aggregate idea of how you're even feeling as a human, then that almost becomes your God, right? In a weird way, I know that some people say nothing will ever be my. Be. Be a new God for me. I, I feel that and I, I agree with that and I respect that. But if you're, say, future generations, if they're raised under this cloud of that's all knowing, then that would they almost at some point pray to this algorithm that it would give them a lottery ball of some sort of thing or something. Does that even. I mean, it's kind of Ray. Brad Bellian or whatever. Bradwellian or whatever. Or Brad Burwellian. But does that make any sense to you, man?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, that's why we have to keep our humanity. You know, some of the stuff in Silicon Valley is crazy, where these tech leaders really are trying to be godlike. Let me give you two examples. Have you heard of this thing called cryonics? You know, where we had a guy.

[Theo Vaughn]

On who did the freezing?

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah. Oh, you did?

[Theo Vaughn]

Yep.

[Ro Khanna]

I mean, basically they want to like, freeze your body if you die. If I die, Freeze your body and your brain so that some future medical technology could bring you back to life.

[Theo Vaughn]

Some pervert probably too.

[Ro Khanna]

And Peter Thiel's done this. Reportedly Sam Altman at OpenAI has done this.

[Theo Vaughn]

Have signed up for it.

[Ro Khanna]

Have signed up for it. That's the reporting. Now I'll tell you why that's so bad, to try to be immortal. One of my favorite speeches of all time was Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs founded Apple Computers. He dies of pancreatic cancer. He gives this commencement speech and he says that life invented death and death is a change agent because death allows for the removal of the old guard and for new ideas and new creativity to come about. Like you're supposed to make way for a new generation. We're supposed to be mortal. So you have these people who are trying to be immortal. Now, why does that matter? Because this is partly AI, right? If you don't have a sense of your own mortality, your own limitations, you're not going to have a humanistic sense of putting people over machines. A second example with a. With these tech leaders, they want to build these tech cities. Have you heard of that?

[Theo Vaughn]

I've seen, like, pieces in Memphis and stuff where people are getting sick because of, like, data being uploaded and stuff in their neighborhood. And like. Yeah, I mean, that's storage, you know.

[Ro Khanna]

That'S a big issue of how these data centers are being built and whether they're going to cause pollution or dislocation. But they really want to build these tech cities. Not just a city. It's like a secular genesis. Like, they want to build a new civilization with algorithmic norms, with morality that they're setting, not like the. That was set by God or years of civilization. And it's scary. It's scary because it shows an arrogance, a lack of humility. My sense is, look, AI can be an incredible tool if it helps you figure out how many steps you walked and when you're sleeping and how to be nutritious. But it has to be subservient to human agency. It has. We have to have laws that say ultimately human beings are in charge. And we have to make sure that we're teaching people to have the critical thinking skills and the autonomy to be able to use these programs and not be subservient to them. And that's, to me, that's the biggest question for, for humanity. It's ironic because, you know, you're asking almost deeper questions than any of these Sunday talk shows are in Congress. Like, in Congress, we're busy fighting about, like, who insulted who and like, who's up, who's down in the polls. And we just have this technology revolution that's going to change how all of us work. That, you know, is going to make people afraid if they're going to lose their jobs, that's going to try to create the super intelligence, wondering whether we're making the decisions or machines are making the decisions. That's what we should be talking about, right?

[Theo Vaughn]

And we should be talking about it in a way that is ex. And I guess there are ways to talk about it in ways that are exciting. But I just think right now, with what you have seen, like the, to me, the, the destruction and the, the Stuff caused by Israel. Now, it makes it very scary right now with that company because you've just seen that and then you're now that's the company that's going to oversee our country. What's going to keep me from being a Palestinian to the next guy who starts the button in the morning from his cell phone and then goes off on his yacht? You know, and just the Constitution, hopefully, but. Right, right, hopefully, the Constitution. Thanks for your patience today, Mr. Kana Rose.

[Ro Khanna]

Fine.

[Theo Vaughn]

Ro. Rohit. That's your real name?

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

How do you say it?

[Ro Khanna]

Rohit. You know, when I was a kid, people used, I still remember this, they used to say, rohit, Rohit, Rohit is on fire. And then I figured out it was like making fun of my, my full name. And then when I used to go up the hit on Little League, I used to hold chan row. Can't hit. Ro. Can't hit. Watch the bunt. But, you know, we have this in common, right? I looked up that you got a long name that.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, yeah. What's your full name?

[Ro Khanna]

It's Rohit Khanna.

[Theo Vaughn]

Rohit Khanna.

[Ro Khanna]

But you know, we're both. I don't want to geek out because I loved literature, but it's like quintessentially American to in some ways change your name and to make your story right. Like, my favorite character in all of American literature is this guy, Jay Gatsby. And his name was James Gatz. He was from North Dakota. And he said, well, James Gatz is not a sophisticated name. So I'm going to call myself Jay Gatsby. And he reinvents himself and in different ways. You Theo Vaughn. Like, no one would have thought you'd be Theo Vaughn growing up. No one would have thought this geeky Indian kid is going to go represent Silicon Valley and Rohit Khana is going to become Ro Khanna, representing the most economically powerful place in the world. But like, that's the story of America, right? That's the story of self invention. And it's something that we've kind of lost, that it's why my parents came here. And the question is, how do we get that back? Like, how? You know, we've talked about all the negative stuff, which I get, but how do we get people believing in this country again? Believing that we can do big things again?

[Theo Vaughn]

Well, I think there's some ways. And we'll go into this now then, because we're on my list here and I am using a list today. That's okay because it's an Important conversation. Because of AI, job replacement has already started to happen.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah, right.

[Theo Vaughn]

What kind of worker protections can be implemented, do you think? Because I know you have an Internet bill of rights and then we can talk about that right after that. Yeah, or it may be part of it. But what do you think? Because we should be protecting the human, right?

[Ro Khanna]

At a certain point, we should be protecting the human. And we could go two ways with AI, right? One way of AI is like this could create a lot of new jobs, right. We could build new factories now that are productive in this country. You could have someone in a classroom in Kentucky now who, because AAI doesn't get to go to Harvard or Stanford, but suddenly has the knowledge of the whole world at their fingertips and can get that kind of education. You can have someone working in a, a small rural town making 80 grand or 100 grand because they're a content creator or you know how many content creators there are in, in this country? 1.5 million who make some money doing content creation or they can do digital marketing or they can help AI start a small business. So like my point is how do we get AI to lessen the wage gap to create economic opportunities as opposed to just eliminating jobs? The scary part is what if they're going to start to eliminate jobs? Like if you're a truck driver, what if they say, okay, we're just going to have self driving trucks? That's why we need to pass laws saying no, I, I need a truck driver for safety. Like would you fly on a plane right now without pilots? You know, same thing. I wouldn't. So let's make sure we have basic safety in terms of recognizing that we do want workers and workers get to have a say and how to use this technology. You know what the scariest thing is? The unemployment rate for kids between 21 and 29 who have a college degree. Everyone often says, oh, if you have a college degree, you're going to be employed. Actually it turns out if you have a vocational Skill, skilled trades 21 to 29, you have a 2% unemployment rate right now. College degrees, 15% that could go up to 30% if with AI, with these entry level jobs. And one of the things we, we need, I think we need the, the federal government to help incentivize people getting apprenticeships after they're done with a trade school or a college so they can actually get a job, make sure they're subsidized, create a government future workforce administration that hires them so they get a few years of experience and then can go on to the private sector. Most importantly, everyone needs to understand technology and AI. The old cliche is you're not going to be replaced by AI, but you will be replaced by someone who knows AI. And in our schools, K through 12, everyone should have a technology class. China is aiming by 2030 to have universal literacy on AI.

[Theo Vaughn]

No, no. Yeah. Not to interrupt you, but I think. Well, one thing you said here that was really great was anybody. I agree. A lot of jobs are going to. It's going to be scary. I'm amazed. I was talking to my brother yesterday. I was like, I said, bro, do you have your kids learning about AI right now? Like, are they learning about it? Are they starting to use it? And my brother's like, no, I don't think so. I said, dude, I feel like it's coming so fast that it could change things really fast. Now, one thing you mentioned is anybody can learn this right now. It's almost like a great reset in a lot of ways. So you have the kid who couldn't afford to go to Harvard, right?

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

Who couldn't afford to go to mit, whose father doesn't have the nepotism. Because we certainly live in like a NEPA society now.

[Ro Khanna]

Right.

[Theo Vaughn]

In a lot of ways whose father didn't have that capability. Now that kid can get on a computer for probably six weeks or something, really focus and crack down and could probably get a job. Like I was literally looking the other day, I was like, I need somebody who knows everything about AI, right? I need somebody who can program and design and help with AI. Like, I want to start like an AI studio. Right?

[Ro Khanna]

Oh, that's pretty cool.

[Theo Vaughn]

And I got to do it fast because everybody else is going to be doing it. Yeah. You could have a new.

[Ro Khanna]

So even someone like, you need to. Right?

[Theo Vaughn]

Like 100%. I feel every day. And there's a little part of me that pull, like a little string inside of me that gets reminder like, hey, man, you have to get on top of this. I know other things are pressing.

[Ro Khanna]

I hope kids who are listening to this hear that because they. A lot of people want to be like, how do I be the Avon? How do I be this guy with a podcast or do stand up, be a stand up comedian? Even someone like you, you want to do that. You got to know AI. Look, one of the things I say is, look, I was really good as an Indian kid in math, right? Like every Indian kid is. But you don't need math. Like, you don't need algebra and calculus. Anymore to do AI, you don't have to do.

[Theo Vaughn]

You're going to shake up all of Madras.

[Ro Khanna]

You know, you don't. You don't have to be like, I was like some nerdy kid who did, like mathletes and, you know, got good grades on math tests. Don't. Don't need it anymore. If you want to be an advanced coder programmer, fine. But the amazing thing with AI is now it does all that for you. You know what jobs are actually being eliminated? The coder jobs. The guys who did all the math, the AI is doing the coding for them.

[Theo Vaughn]

Imagine there's a guy sitting there building AI, and it's only going to. Going to take his job.

[Ro Khanna]

So now, like, okay, you don't have to be the kid who did algebra and calculus. Not to say that you shouldn't learn math. You should learn it for your own sake. But even if you don't like math now, you can just learn this technology. You just have to be comfortable with it. How do you use it to do a business? How do you use it to learn about the world? And you can be the one asking it questions and prompting it, and it can create a whole new level of jobs. And you know what the exciting thing is? You don't have to leave Louisiana for so many times we said, okay, you gotta go move to Silicon Valley, move to New York. And people in Appalachia.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah, the gold rush or whatever.

[Ro Khanna]

And people are. Appalachia were like, yeah, no, it's really beautiful here. No, I really like living in my small town, in my rural community. Like, no, I don't want to live in New York. No, I don't want to go to Rose District. I often ask all these people in my district who are like, oh, okay, just tell them to move here or move to a tech place. I was like, well, are you going to move to Louisiana? And no, hands go up. Then I was like, why are you so arrogant to think they want to live here? They like it where they grew up with their families. But now you can, like, live there and you learn a little bit of tech and you can work for almost any company in the country, in the world. That is the opportunity, if we do this right. And we should start with kindergarten through 12th grade. It's just like reading or writing.

[Theo Vaughn]

I agree.

[Ro Khanna]

Your brother's kid's gonna do it.

[Theo Vaughn]

I hope so. I'll say this. They're not working for me one day if they don't. This is also interesting because it's like every now and then, there's something that makes it where you can. Can jump. You can jump up a cast or assist. You can jump a couple levels. And I believe that right now, this is that thing.

[Ro Khanna]

I say the same exact thing. You know, the. The wealth gap there. There are two huge wealth gaps in this country. One is between places like Silicon Valley and factory towns, rural towns that were decimated. And the other is a racial wealth gap. 10 to 1. White, white families and Asian American families, 10 to 1. The wealth of people who are African American, Latino American. Technology. You can do that. Scale that in one generation. If we can. If we can get rural communities, factory towns, towns in the black south, the opportunity to do things with tech and build companies, build wealth, be content creators.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, hell yeah. Black AI, dude. You know what I'm saying? Build me a trap beat, homie. Let's get this. No, but I agree with you think it's an. It's an opportunity, right? And. And that is. It's like, it's an opportunity. Some people are like, there's no. And I know that's just one thing, but also another thing is that trade jobs, like you're saying, you're still going to need plumbers, for sure. You're still going to need. You're still going to want the hands on the wheel of a human being, I believe. But there's a lot of trade jobs. You're not going to be able to replace those. You talked about an Internet Bill of Rights, Right. Which you tried to pass, I'm guessing, or. Tell me about that. Tell me a little bit about that experience. And why do we need that? Do you feel like we already answered that, or no, I could go do it briefly.

[Ro Khanna]

I mean, I.

[Theo Vaughn]

Okay.

[Ro Khanna]

There's a guy, Tim Berners Lee, you should have him on sometime.

[Theo Vaughn]

Tim. What's his name?

[Ro Khanna]

Tim Berners Lee. He is the founder, basically, of the World Wide Web. He's one of the people who made the Internet. The Internet.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh.

[Ro Khanna]

And I'm sure he was like knighted or something. And, you know, so he and I talked and we came out with this Internet Bill of rights. When you remember that Facebook Cambridge Analytica scandal where people lost their data on Facebook and profiles were made, and basically it said, in this country, no one should take your data without your consent.

[Theo Vaughn]

Agreed.

[Ro Khanna]

And you should know where your data is. I mean, there are other parts of it, but it's like pretty simple. You own your data, you control your data, and you should know what's happening with your data. And I think. And by the way, you should be Compensated to some extent for the use of your data. If you, if you consent, there should be a data dividend in this country. And I think that is not a partisan issue. It is an issue that's going to become increasingly important with things like this database that may be being made. Like, you should know. Do you know, Theo, right now what the government knows about you? Do you know if there's a profile on you? Do you know, like, what if that database is wrong?

[Theo Vaughn]

Pisces. I know that. I'm trying to think of what else I don't know.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah, like you should, you should know. You should be able to consent. You should be able to get something deleted if they have an incorrect information. And what that applies to the government and it applies to big corporations. I don't want Google having some profile on Ro Khanna. I mean, so we introduced this in 2017. 2017. Congress, to this day, has not been able to, to, to introduce or pass any Internet Bill of Rights. There are no protections. You know, when Josh Hawley, you say.

[Theo Vaughn]

There'S no protections, you just mean there's no protections for people.

[Ro Khanna]

I mean, no protection of people. Josh. Holly once, and there are places where I actually agree with Holly. He had Mark Zuckerberg stand up and.

[Theo Vaughn]

Apologize to those parents.

[Ro Khanna]

To those parents.

[Theo Vaughn]

I saw that.

[Ro Khanna]

And someone said to me, you know what he should have also done? He should have had the whole Congress stand up and apologize. The problem isn't just these tech companies. It's the Congress. We've. We've had this stuff going on for 10 years, and Congress has not passed an Internet Bill of Rights. And one of the things I say is, look, I know these people. I know they, I know how they think. They're going to run circles around you. You got to hold them accountable. Have the tech guy saying, hold them accountable.

[Theo Vaughn]

Why won't they do it? The same reason as before.

[Ro Khanna]

Why won't the tech companies do it?

[Theo Vaughn]

Who's lobbying? Who's lobbying against them? Big tech.

[Ro Khanna]

It's the. It's tech lobbying. It's Internet service provider lobbying. It's these lobbyists. And they don't want. And we haven't. I mean, can you imagine this country that has a constitution, that is the country founded on freedom? And we don't have any federal legislation saying you own your data.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, well. Well, that's what it's all become. It's all part of this thing where all you become is data and then you don't own it. And then you're part of a new country without you even realizing it, you got put into a whole new continent titled or owned by whatever tech monarchy owns it or all of Jarchi owns it. And then you. That's where you are. People were like, I'm in America. Like, that's fine. You can believe that all you want, right? But if another company owns your information, that company can't really even be sued. There's a. There was also part of that big, beautiful bill that keeps state legislative. I.

[Ro Khanna]

Worst part of that bill, the.

[Theo Vaughn]

I see. You can't even sue the people. Bring it up for me. Get to that really quick.

[Ro Khanna]

10 years. They want no state to have any regulation on AI. 10 years to give a free pass to these big tech companies. No regulation. I. I spoke out against it, and my phone blew up because I had all these angry tech leaders saying, ro, how are you speaking out against these moderatoriums? That's when I knew I was doing the right thing.

[Theo Vaughn]

That's when you know you're doing the right thing, man.

[Ro Khanna]

But. But you know. You know what's sad, Theo? In this country, and because you and I both have gone to some of these towns that lost their factories, that lost their industries, and we screwed them twice. First, we took away their jobs. We literally shipped their jobs offshore or watch their jobs go to China. These towns started to deindustrialize. There was pain, there was opioids, there were drugs. And then what do we do? We get social media companies to find algorithms on their data to start targeting them with content, which is causing young girls to commit suicide, which is getting some people more addicted to drugs, which is getting people to be angry at each other. It's like we screwed them, taking away their jobs, and now we're taking their data and screwing them with social media.

[Theo Vaughn]

I just feel like the devil is at the gates, man. I feel like we are at such an important time. And I know people have probably said that before, and what the fuck do I know, dude? I am. I'm not mentally handicapped, whatever, but I am definitely adjacent, right? But I do know some things. I know this, that I'll say this. This is in that big, beautiful bill. And I don't know everything that's in it. But this is one thing that really stood out to me, and I asked JD about this. It says for a full 10 years after enactment, no US state or locality may enforce any law or regulation that limits, restricts, or otherwise regulates artificial intelligence models, artificial intelligence systems, or automated decision systems entered into interstate commerce. Only laws encouraging use or deployment of AI are excluded. That means that you won't have any legal recourse against a machine.

[Ro Khanna]

Basically. Like, you know how you said you want hands on a wheel?

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

If now a state wants to pass a law saying you got to have a truck driver on a truck, you can't do that. If your state wants to pass a law saying you can't have an algorithm in social media that gets young girls addicted to content, that makes them more likely to have eating disorders, can't do that.

[Theo Vaughn]

So it's just going to be federal.

[Ro Khanna]

Have the only federal, will be the only one. And you know what?

[Theo Vaughn]

Do you not see how crazy. Do you not see what is at the gates?

[Ro Khanna]

And by the way, you're not going to get federal legislation, because the way you get federal legislation in this country is when you get a bunch of states that pass legislation, then you get the industry coming to the federal government saying, oh, there are too many state laws. Can you just get one federal standard? But if you don't have the state laws, you're never going to have industry coming saying, let's get a federal standard. So it's basically like, let's have AI just develop. And that is the problem. Right. There's the beautiful AI vision of how your nephews could learn this and build wealth. And we could have some people in one generation have economic security. And then there's the dystopian AI vision where big government and big companies control our data, are making decisions based on what predictive algorithms are telling about. About us, where we lose control to machines. And the question is, which way are we going to go as a society and who's going to benefit? Is the AI revolution going to be like globalization? All the money piles up in my district. You know, we'll be sitting here five years from now, instead of $14 trillion, it'll be $50 trillion, and places like Louisiana will still be shafted. Or is the AI revolution going to be owned by American citizens? Like, to me, that is the whole biggest question of our society right now.

[Theo Vaughn]

I agree. I agree, man. It's one of the reasons why I was so grateful that you were willing to come here so quick, and then we're able to talk about this stuff. Because I wanted to have. I've just. I. I don't know. Sometimes I'll just get afraid that I'm not educated enough to have certain conversations.

[Ro Khanna]

You're, you know, you're.

[Theo Vaughn]

You're what?

[Ro Khanna]

I feel like you're perfectly. You're educated to. To the point where it's your values and That's. I think that's actually one of the things that the tech folks rely on. And it's like what the foreign policy establishment relies on. It's like the old priests. Like, we've got some secret language, secret vocabulary. You can't talk about the Middle east because you haven't studied the Middle east as much as us. You can't talk about technology because you don't know the math that went into the coding of AI. Who cares? These aren't questions of technological competence. These aren't questions of foreign policy competence. These are questions of human values.

[Theo Vaughn]

This is a moral.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah, it's a moral issue.

[Theo Vaughn]

But just, but just to be sure to go back so on, on that point we're talking about that part that's in the big beautiful bill. It will not leave you very much legal recourse. Is that correct?

[Ro Khanna]

It'll leave you no legal recourse. If you're a state, you can't do any regulations.

[Theo Vaughn]

What if you're a citizen?

[Ro Khanna]

And if you're a citizen, you have almost no legal recourse. It's basically saying, look, let's trust the AI developers to just develop AI. And the argument they give is, well, we don't want to lose out to China. Well, you know what? I don't want to live in a society like China. China has a social credit score on every single person. Like, if you're in China, you get ranked 10, you're a great Chinese citizen. One you're not, you know, because you didn't pay your bills, because you were rude to someone, because you made fun of someone.

[Theo Vaughn]

Like, your karate sucks.

[Ro Khanna]

Like, the, the, the argument can't be like, we're going to stay ahead of China, so let's become like China, right? How about we're going to stay ahead of China without being China, and we're going to have regulations because we're Americans.

[Theo Vaughn]

And it's here now, though people don't understand it's here now. Right? Like, it's. We can't keep kicking this. The bold ideal. I feel like we're on the goal line, we're on the go.

[Ro Khanna]

This is the thing that the tech leaders, why they're so involved suddenly in politics. They understand that this is the whole ball game. Like, well, we're fighting over all this other stuff. Oh, where is the funding for Medicaid and tax? All very important. They're like, well, we just want the whole enchilada. We just, we just want to, we just want to control data and control jobs and control the economy. And these people in Washington are kind of clueless. Like, there are people in members of Congress. I'm going to say the names were asking the Google CEO about the iPhone. They don't know that Apple makes the iPhone. You know, they're technologically illiterate and they're just being run circles around. And now they're saying, like, Congress, you're so illiterate. Just don't do anything, don't have any regulation. Let us just do everything. Like, really, we didn't fight a revolution in this country to let the tech billionaires get to decide our future. It's. And, and, and I think what we need, you know, FDR was a traitor to his own class. He came from, from New York, Wall street finance. He said, no, I'm not going to let finance dictate America. And in some ways we need people from technology saying, yeah, we love technology, but no, technologists don't get to call the shots in this country. Theo's buddies get to call the shots. And by the way, they got better judgment than you.

[Theo Vaughn]

Or just human beings. People with some. I think, because I'm not, I don't know the best morals in the world or anything, but I feel like I try to be alive because that's what I'm, I'm sentenced to right now is being alive on earth. So why don't, why don't, why isn't there a tech leader that comes out was like, this is the app that shows you exactly who's doing what, so you can. This is how you start to change. Like, we need something that's step by step, almost a for dummies. And I hate to say that, but we've all become dumbed down by our phones and games. But we need to know if we have. I mean, because I just feel like this is it. We gotta find a developer who's like, you know what? I'm gonna fucking try to save humanity.

[Ro Khanna]

You know who we could have, and maybe you should have him on here is Steve Wozniak. He's the, he's the guy who developed Apple with Steve Jobs.

[Theo Vaughn]

Cool guy, Cool guy.

[Ro Khanna]

And he's a humanist. He's. He believes human values. We need some people like Wozniak. I mean, there are others. The was, you know it. And you know, Steve Jobs in many ways was a, was a humanist. People who understand technology, but are like, you know, technology in the service of human values. We're not gods. We don't want to rule. I often say we need Silicon Valley in The service of America and not America in the service of Silicon Valley.

[Theo Vaughn]

Amen. Amen. I agree. I would love to meet Mr. Woziak and talk to him. Okay. You campaigned for. And I'm. Yeah, I'm going back to some of my charts here, but that's all right today, guys. That's where I'm at. It's been a long week and it's been a long life. You campaigned for Bernie Sanders in 2016 and co chaired his presidential run in 2020.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

Is that right?

[Ro Khanna]

That's right.

[Theo Vaughn]

We've asked him directly what happened. You know, and I was always a. I wish that they made it so that whoever won the presidency, the other perhaps, like if a president was Republican, the Democrat, the vice president had to be Democrat. Right?

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

I wish it was like that because then it seems like there would be.

[Ro Khanna]

A common ground or invited them to govern together.

[Theo Vaughn]

Right.

[Ro Khanna]

You know, like there has to be.

[Theo Vaughn]

Some sort of teamwork because otherwise you outsource it and it's just, it seems like it's so much more expensive. But what I was going to ask you right here was. And we've asked him directly what happened. But in your opinion, why do you think that he lost out on the nomination both times? Because I think that's had an effect on how the Democratic Party has been perceived over the years.

[Ro Khanna]

The establishment screwed him. I mean, there's no doubt about that. He should have been the nominee in 2020. You had the whole party basically, like, drop out, tell people to drop out and endorse Joe Biden. They resurrected Joe Biden. He had lost Iowa. He came in like fourth or fifth, he lost New Hampshire, fourth or fifth. It's never happened in the history of the party in recent history that someone is losing that badly and then wins. And they suddenly see, Bernie's winning Iowa, he's winning New Hampshire, he's winning Nevada. Unstoppable. Nate Silver had him at 70% odds to win the nomination at that point. And the party just reacts and they say no. And they convince Buddha Judge to drop out and endorse Biden. They convinced Beto to endorse Biden. They convinced Klobuchar to endorse Biden.

[Theo Vaughn]

Convince them all. Was it funding and stuff, you think?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, I think they said, look, you want to have a future? You could be in the. You can be in the Cabinet. You can. We're going to be for you. And then they're like, bernie can't win. Bernie can't wait. Come on. Donald Trump just won. He's talking about invading Greenland, and you're telling me we can't talk about Medicare for all. I mean, like, the one thing that Donald Trump has shown you is like, you can say what you believe.

[Theo Vaughn]

Anybody can win.

[Ro Khanna]

Anyone. And, and, and that's like, you know, JD had that, too. He was like, you, come on. I disagree with him. But you know where he stands. Like, just campaign with your heart, campaign with your ideas. That's what. And Bernie was speaking to people who were outsiders, who were underdogs. You know, I think that's why you and I resonate. I was an underdog growing up. I was not. I was not supposed to be a politician. I didn't have a father who was a senator or a rich person or a congressperson. Like, no one would have thought this Indian kid of Hindu faith was going to have any shot to get elected to dog catcher in the this country. But in. Bernie was speaking for all the folks who weren't supposed to make it, who aren't making it in this country.

[Theo Vaughn]

Bernie was underdog.

[Ro Khanna]

He was an underdog.

[Theo Vaughn]

That's another thing about Trump, though. Trump was also an underdog. You know what I'm saying? He did have part of that with them, a lot of these. But I do, I do think there's a. There's people that love an underdog man. Okay, let's build the primary early. Right. Who should the Democrats run? Well, first of all, do you think we need to still have just Republican and Democratic Party, or do you think there's value in getting a big financier to support, like, a third party? Like, say, if Elon Musk decided to go and support a third party?

[Ro Khanna]

I think there's a value in third parties. Here's the problem I have in terms of just like, third parties running for president. A lot of times it has to be a billionaire. And then you're like, okay, is that billionaire really going to have the values of the working class? But in terms of parties, and I'm one of the few people in the Democrat Party who says this, I think have more parties. You know, if, like, the Democrats are like, oh, your third party is going to take away votes from us, that was like, be better. Like, it's not the voter's job to vote for you. It's your job to convince the voter. I never understood this with, like, the whole Harris Trump race. They're like, well, you know, they're. Jill Stein is taking votes away from us. I was like, her job is to run. Your job is to convince people to vote for you?

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

You know, it's like if like Apple Computers wasn't selling iPhones, they're like, well, this other third party company is taking iPhone sales away from you. Okay, well why aren't you making the iPhone better? Right. And so I think having more parties is good. I still think the Democratic Party is the vehicle where we can really have a progressive working class agenda. I think we've got to reform it in the way Bernie Sanders was, was trying. And you know, and I think, and I think the Republican Party, I hope, will become more anti war, will become more working class centered so that we have reform in this country.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah. I just don't know how we could keep going with nothing because that's what it starts to almost feel like is that we're just, we're not even getting anything. I've heard you talk about the idea of economic patriotism.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

What does that kind of mean when you say that? I like that terminology.

[Ro Khanna]

My parents came to this country in the 1960s. It was the time John F. Kennedy said, let's go to the moon, let's dream big. This country was humming. We were building things, we were making things, we were doing things for civilization. I think that's what can bring us together. Let's have a Marshall Plan, not for Europe, a 21st century Marshall Plan for America where we start to build new factories, new industry, new AI centers, new AI academies, new universities, new trade schools. And we come together in this country, white, black, Latino, Asian, to build things in America. And by the way, I think that's something even some of the MAGA folks could get behind. Like, what is it? We need a new national purpose. You know, in. When John F. Kennedy was president, 60% of Americans had trust in government. Today it's probably like down to less than 20%. And the reality is, you know, we talked about the PAC money and the lobbyist money, but most people go into Congress, they are still, they want to do something for America.

[Theo Vaughn]

They, they really believe that.

[Ro Khanna]

I do, I believe that about, you know, J.D. vance and I've gotten into arguments. I believe that about him. Like, I, I believe that.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, I do too, about him. I do believe that.

[Ro Khanna]

You know, I, I believe that about most people. Like, I think they have a story. They, they want to do something good. The system is so broken. But you know, what we need again is a vision that's going to inspire us to come together to do things. And economic patriotism, I think would be one of those visions like let's make a, let's Redevelop communities.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah, me and Mike. I was talking about Mike Rowe, and we've kind of started to put the wheels on creating, like, a place that's just American products. Right. Where you go to buy stuff that's just American. You know, start to see what that would look like. So that would be really interesting to have, like a new American kind of qvc. But all the stuff is just American stuff.

[Ro Khanna]

And one of my bills is actually to give a tax credit at the end of the year if you keep your receipts and buy American. So, look, you buy an American glass American book, you get to deduct it on your taxes.

[Theo Vaughn]

I love that. I mean, I love that. If we could. And also if we just didn't give money to some of these other places and stuff, it would be. I think it would be. We'd have a lot of money for people. Yeah. It's funny that American. American manufacturing doesn't even seem to be a part of the Democratic talking points anymore. No.

[Ro Khanna]

Which is so ironic because FDR industrialized the whole country. You know, the. The tragedy often say of Elon Musk, who I've. Who I've known, is that he could have been Bill Knudson. I know you're like, American history. Bill Nutson was this guy who was running gm, Knudsen, K N u D S O n. And you can look him up. And he was running gm. And FDR says, you know, we need you. We need you to build American industry. We were making a thousand planes a year. Within a few years, Bill Knudsen takes it to 300,000 planes instead. I mean, the tragedy in my view of Musk is he was undermining and destroying, like, the NIH and all these agencies, where what we needed is someone to come in and say, let's industrialize this country. Let's work with labor to build new industry, new jobs. The Democrats did that. Like, we. I don't understand how we let Trump become the Made in America guy. We. We need to be the party that says, here's our vision for making things in America. And wouldn't it be great if the argument in this country was who was going to build America better? And, like, Trump's like, here are my ideas. And we were like, here are our ideas. And maybe you take the best of those ideas, but how about a common goal? Again, like, I think the country is exhausted. We're embarrassed.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

They see all of us in Congress, and I'm guilty of this too, sometimes. And we're arguing and name calling and they're like, yeah, but my life, like, I can't afford a house, my kids aren't going to have the same job I did. I don't know where I'm going. I don't know what's happening with this country. Like, just get your act together and get some direction. This is supposed to be the greatest country in the world. And start working together on Team America.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah, yeah. I think it's, the dream is fading. I feel like some, and I don't want to be a pessimist, but I don't, I feel like, I don't want to say the dream is fading, but I want to say that's that it feels like we don't all have the same dream. That's fading. That's the part that Sanam feels like it's fading. It used to be that you go to bed at night and it felt like you all had this universal dream, you know, I think, yeah, I think.

[Ro Khanna]

And we've, we've lost that. Like, what is the common American dream? And, and we've one, we're so divided, right? Life is so different for some people in Silicon Valley than is for folks who are like, how am I going to pay my medical bills? How am I going to pay for rent? How are my kids going to have a decent job? And the other thing is that we lack a common sense of vision. Like, what are we doing as a society together as Americans? And I, you know, I think if, if we get people talking about that and, and that's why I say a Marshall Plan, economic patriotism, rebuilding this country. And that doesn't mean old factories. Like it's going to be the new modern factories, new industries.

[Theo Vaughn]

Well, I think people, it's also going to get weird if people, that some of the greed doesn't end, that people are just going to want to see the rich start to suffer. And that's when shit can get really weird. That's when you start getting people into revolutionary thought. But then maybe, who knows, maybe we just, you know, we just slowly drift off into the ether of our sofa with Cheez its on our chest, you know, I don't know, some man with fake breasts laying there eating Cheez Its, you know, and just drifting into the ether of existence.

[Ro Khanna]

That would be sad if we don't.

[Theo Vaughn]

You know, but I hope that's not our Pole Revere, Right? I hope that there is still like a lot of people who believe in something. And I think there is, and I think there's people that want something new. I'm glad. I'm glad that even just saying asking Mike Johnson for help with that thing, you know, I think that that's neat just because I didn't even know that we could do that. You know, what was anything else we wanted to talk about? We're almost there. Let me see. Oh, One thing that J.D. vance said that was really interesting the first time I spoke with him was he said that a lot of Congress people and representatives will go turn over to be or senators will turn over to be lobbyists because they don't get paid enough by the government type of situation. Is that true? Take me down a little bit of that discussion where the salary is better being a lobbyist than it is to be on, on the this side.

[Ro Khanna]

Well, he's absolutely right. And it's terrible what happens. I mean, you are in Congress, you're working on the Armed Services Committee overseeing defense contractors. Then you'll retire and suddenly you'll become a lobbyist for the defense industry. You'll go from making $170,000 a year to making a million dollars a year. And that's why I have a bill, it's called the Drain the Swamp act or my Political Reform act, and it says ban members of Congress from ever becoming lobbyists. Now, you know, Harry Truman won World War II. He did more than anyone in Congress put together. And he started NATO. And Harry Truman at the end of his presidency, the guy who WINS World War II sets us up for the post cold, post World War II order. Writes to someone when he was invited to give a speech, he said, I'm a little embarrassed, Betsy and I can't afford the train ride. Can you pay for the train ride? Happy to give the speech. Right. It used to be you went into politics not to get rich. And I don't begrudge people who are wealthy. There are a lot of people who are wealthy. But you shouldn't be in public service to make money. And afterwards you can do a lot of things. Go, go do something in AI. Go do something. You know, don't go and lobby. Don't become a member of Congress who's just going to cash out by lobbying. It's something I will never do. But it's also a ban we should have. And I, you know, maybe we can make that a bipartisan effort.

[Theo Vaughn]

I don't see how it couldn't be because every human wants it on both sides. So I don't see why it just keeps happening. And yeah, if you're good at your job of being a congressman or a Senator, Are they different ones? Yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

Then afterwards, you could do a tour at all the donut shops. You show up over there. Yeah, people pay in a heartbeat to show up there, take photos and stuff, have a, get a hug or something, get a, get a glazed.

[Ro Khanna]

Just the one thing they shouldn't do is start a podcast. Politicians podcasts are terrible. Yeah. They're like, so boring.

[Theo Vaughn]

Newsom tried it.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah. And I mean, it's just kind of because it's like so stilted and it's not, there's no humor. You got to have some humor, like, you know, the politician by the straight guy. But you need someone who's funny. You need like, this conversation. It's kind of all over the place. It's not, it's not like, oh, well, what are the poll numbers on this? So it's just I've never seen a politician who had a good, interesting podcast.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah, I think that that would be a bit much, maybe, but I don't know. I mean, anybody could do it. It's hard for saying. Right front of you, sir.

[Ro Khanna]

Oh, no, not at all.

[Theo Vaughn]

Well, I should have done better.

[Ro Khanna]

No, not at all.

[Theo Vaughn]

Oh, I did have this question, though. We were talking about that you voted in the p about finances. You voted in the past to ban members of Congress from trading and holding individual stocks. This hasn't happened yet, right?

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

Why do you think that hasn't happened? You know, like, if Martha Stewart went to prison, then Nancy Pelosi should go to prison. It feels like, you know, well, look.

[Ro Khanna]

I, I, I, I don't think that Pelosi, in my view, I mean, this has done things that are unethical, but I think that there is this such a trust deficit in the Congress that people think that the biggest problem is money in politics. Right. They're taking all this money from PACs, they're taking all this money from lobbyists. But at the same time, people are concerned if members of Congress are individually trading stock. And so the bill I've supported calling for a ban on stock trading is a no trust act. And it says, you know, put your money in a trust, have someone else manage it. Don't be there trading stocks or telling your advisor to trade stocks while you're creating a conflict. And why haven't you gotten a vote? I don't know. Johnson can, Johnson could get, get us a vote on. I, I think it would pass overwhelmingly. And we've got a bipartisan group that's pushing for a vote on that. But if you do, the five parts of my Political reform plan, ban PAC money, ban super PACs, ban lobbyists from getting money, ban members of Congress from ever becoming a lobbyist, and ban stock trading in Congress. I think you would start to restore trust in Congress. And some of the MAGA folks actually have liked the plan the most. I had to drain the Swamp act, which I said, you want to drain the swamp? How about just telling lobbyists they can't give gifts to White House officials? And someone's like, oh, you only wanted to apply for Donald Trump? No, I was like, I wanted to apply whether it's Donald Trump or Democratic president.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, all the things you're saying seem very like. I think these are things that are super important. I feel like it's things that feel. Most people feel are super important. And that's. But. But it never. What happens. It's like, it just. Like we talk about these things. Everybody's like, yeah. And then it gets to some place where it all. Nothing ever really evolves, it feels like. And that's where I feel like we're at now. Instead, Hollywood gives us, like, here's a Diddy case. Go look, you know, keep the black population at ease. You know, like. Or here's a. You know, we'll stretch the NBA Finals another week. We'll send in a special ref that.

[Ro Khanna]

Are you for the Pacers or.

[Theo Vaughn]

Allegedly. I'm for the Pacers. I like Hal Burton. I think he's just a super guy. But. But. Or, yeah, I know. It just. It feels like it never gets there. You had. Let me see. My producer would also. You have a. But your family owns stock or you had stock in your family before you got married.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Theo Vaughn]

How does, how would that relate into a congressman or senator owning.

[Ro Khanna]

Well, under the, under the Trust act, people can. Members of Congress and they can be in a trust. They just can't trade stock. Can't trade stock. And that. I think that. That's why I've sponsored the bill. I think that we. What we want to do is eliminate conflicts. And if you can have the no Trust act happen. It says members of Congress cannot trade stock. If there are any assets, they put them in a trust, and that would eliminate conflicts. But what is upsetting to people is people making trades while they're doing policy. And that's where the conflict is. The federal employees currently aren't allowed to do that. They have to have their money in. In some trust.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah. Yeah. Because it would almost be. I mean, they. Ethically. Doesn't make sense, but it would be hard not to. You're in a meeting and you're hearing about this or that. To get on your phone and get on your app and, and, and make a trade. You know, heck, if I'm watching a Sports center highlight or something and I see like one of the players has a call for something, I'm betting against that team the next night. You know, like if, you know, if I see Walker Bueller's, you know, if he seems like he's angry about something the next day, I'm gonna, I'll probably bet he has a few more strikeouts.

[Ro Khanna]

Well, look, I think the honest truth is there are not many Pete Roses in the Congress. There are not many people, honestly, who are out there trading on information. You know, all my party is, for example, going after Marjorie Taylor Greene and she says that she's got an independent advisor who's making the trades. I actually believe her. I believe her. But the problem is that, that the, the, the perception that has been created is that people are benefiting from this. So just pass the no Trust Act. It's got bipartisan support. People, if they have assets, they can put them in a, in a trust, they can have it independently managed. Then you know that they're not sitting there making trades or telling people what to do.

[Theo Vaughn]

Can they legally advise the trust advisor? I mean, wouldn't that they.

[Ro Khanna]

They can't. In day to day trading, they can't, they can, they can set it up, but they can't tell the trust advisor, okay, trade here, trade there. And it has to be all disclosed and that, that would assure the American people that you don't have people out there trading on stocks in a way that is that they can't.

[Theo Vaughn]

Yeah. You know, the craziest thing is I just thought sometimes that one of the benefits of the surveillance system would be that finally we get to see what all these senators and congresspeople and, and everybody's up to, you know?

[Ro Khanna]

Right.

[Theo Vaughn]

I wish it could just tell us like do a. I wish you had a Breathalyzer for if people were being honest or not. That's what we need. That's what we need.

[Ro Khanna]

That. There you go. You know, have forced the lie detector test. Next, next time I'm on, maybe I'm have to like do a lie detector.

[Theo Vaughn]

Take that back to, to Silicon Valley with you. Rokana, that's your name.

[Ro Khanna]

You got that, you got the pronunciation perfect.

[Theo Vaughn]

I'm getting better. Yeah. I got to go to India once. I went to Madras one time and had a really good time. Huh. Really, really loved it. A lot of excitement, energy in the faces of the. In the eyes and the smiles of the people there. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Best of luck to you, man. I appreciate you coming on and talking. Keep us out of Iran unless we're already there. I know we've been on the air for a couple hours, so who knows?

[Ro Khanna]

But with Massey, we're gonna do it together. And with your. Your advocacy and keep up your voice, you know, it gives me hope that we got people like you out there just speaking from your heart. And don't let anyone say you don't know what you're talking about. You know. You know a lot more of what you're talking about than a lot of the people running this country, but thank you much.

[Theo Vaughn]

Thank you for your time. Yep.

[Ro Khanna]

Appreciate you.

[Theo Vaughn]

Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves I must be cornerstone oh, but when I reach that ground I I'll share this piece of my life out.

[Ro Khanna]

I can feel it in my bones.

[Theo Vaughn]

But it's gonna take.