#674 - Scott Payne

Summary

Podcast Summary

This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von

Episode #674 – Scott Payne (August 10, 2026)

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Episode Theme

“Life Undercover: Infiltrating America’s Most Dangerous Groups”

In this gripping, wide-ranging conversation, comedian Theo Von interviews retired FBI Special Agent Scott Payne, author of Codename Pale Horse: How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis. Payne, who spent 28 years in law enforcement—including numerous long-term undercover operations with motorcycle gangs, drug rings, cartels, and domestic terror groups—shares raw, graphic, and often darkly humorous accounts of the psychological, physical, and moral complexities of undercover work. The discussion dives deep into the emotional toll, ethical dilemmas, adrenaline-soaked danger, and bizarre rituals encountered over his storied career while also exploring the toll such a path takes on family and self.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Scott Payne’s Early Life & Law Enforcement Origins

• Grew up in South Carolina; learned early to connect with different social crowds ([00:44]).
• Cites gym mentors shaping his journey, including Gary Ward: “He used to bust my chops, man. He helped me perfect my squat. Squat was my strongest lift.” ([03:06])
• Law enforcement career began on uniformed patrol.
• Described early trauma exposure and the challenge of compartmentalizing difficult experiences ([04:10]).

Quote:

“Some of my mentors... there’s a guy named Gary Ward... strongest man in the late 80s...He won the heavyweight class and bench squat and deadlift...Now he’s on narcotics.” — Scott Payne ([01:44])

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2. Trauma, Training, and “Adrenaline Dumps”

• Routine exposure to death, violence, and disaster: “You get desensitized, sorta...We’re not very good at compartmentalizing.” ([04:10])
• Law enforcement suffers high rates of divorce, substance abuse, suicide ([04:17]).
• The crucial role of repeated, stress-inoculation training: “You bleed on the range so you don’t die in the street.” ([08:21])
• Muscle memory and physical fitness help counteract panic in crisis ([09:01]).

Quote:

“When you pick that much weight up off the ground, something’s going to grow.” — Scott Payne, on his mentor Gary’s advice ([03:06])

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3. Career Progression: From County Cop to FBI Undercover

• Moved from jump-out narcotics squads (“jump out boys”) into vice investigations ([10:48]).
• Reasons for federal move: low pay, limited advancement, and the appeal of tackling larger investigations ([13:29]).
• FBI hiring process: intensive psychological and fitness testing, polygraph, background checks, and a wide diversity of agent backgrounds, from accountants to military vets to Walmart managers ([16:44]-[19:08]).

Quote:

“Actually I think that’s one of the strongest points of the FBI is the diversity. But sometimes we place people in the wrong places.” — Scott Payne ([18:55])

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4. Quantico Training: Mental, Physical, and Forensic

• Physically and mentally demanding: “I have been in that building for four days and realize I have not gotten fresh air.” ([27:11])
• Classes ranged from law to forensics, with fascination for the evolution of genetic genealogy and DNA evidence ([27:45]-[29:34]).

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5. Undercover Techniques, Challenges, and Culture

• Early assignments: buying crack “terrifying”; had to “ingratiate” himself with undercover teams ([31:07]).
• Undercover identities primarily developed and managed by the agent, not "wardrobe" or a Hollywood-style department: “Ultimately it’s on you.” ([33:09])
• Balancing lies with core personal truths for memory and authenticity. “For me, I always stuck really close to who I was.... But you can bet most likely I ride motorcycles and I lift weights.” ([65:56])
• The importance of “blending in,” case-by-case improvisation, and not crossing legal/ethical lines (romances, acts of violence, entrapment) ([68:33]).

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6. Life and Danger Infiltrating Gangs & Cartels

• Payne recounted harrowing tales from the drug war along the Texas border:
  • Human trafficking, cartel violence, and the moral dilemmas of distinguishing victims from criminals ([41:19]-[45:49]).
  • Descriptions of finding violence “you can’t always fathom,” including heads in bags and kidnappings ([50:32]).

Quote:

“A lot of people don’t… they value life a little differently. I’m not saying Hispanics… but the cartel at the time I was down there… you just end up with a bunch of heads and bags and vans.” — Scott Payne ([50:32])

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7. The Use & Management of Informants

• Developing and managing sources is central: “If you don’t know how to develop and operate sources, I don’t think you’re probably going to be an awesome undercover.” ([61:18])
• Informants come from every walk of life; the skill is finding connection and trust ([61:22]-[62:57]).

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8. High Stakes: Deep Undercover and Domestic Terrorism

• Payne details his infiltration of white supremacist and accelerationist groups for operations culminating in the takedown of “The Base,” a neo-Nazi cell plotting real-world violence, sabotage, and “the boogaloo” ([93:16]-[159:55]).
• Describes pagan/Norse rituals, animal sacrifices, and the psychological stress of proximity to violent extremists.
• The "Goat Ritual": “We're all in a circle around the goat, and somehow I ended up at the back legs... All I heard was ‘thunk.’ I don't think it broke a single hair... I said, for the sake of the goat, because you want it to show up happy, right?” ([135:53]-[140:13])
• The group’s lethal ambitions led to coordinated arrests once Payne secured admissible evidence of active plotting and intent.

Quote:

“Their bible is basically a book called Siege… lionizes Charles Manson… Number one, that makes you a target. Number two, lets everybody know who you are. Number three, it does nothing for the cause… we’re going to do those guerrilla warfare hits.” — Scott Payne on accelerationists ([97:36])

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9. Motorcycle Gang Infiltration: The Outlaws

• Two-year undercover operation; drew on his real life of riding motorcycles, working in “gentlemen’s clubs,” and southern roots ([164:21]).
• Built deep personal connections—especially with one member (“Scott Town”), blurring the line between friendship and duty ([177:07]-[182:58]).
• Recalls a harrowing, suspicious strip search: “He missed one thing that was...I had in my sock...You can hear me just standing there...I go [sighs] because I’m like what am I gonna do?” ([196:07]-[199:56])
• The tension and humor of holding undercover poses: “I'm glad I didn't wear white underwear.”
• “We pretty much dismantled the whole Taunton chapter.” ([221:25])

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10. Personal Cost: Family, Marriage, and the Aftermath

• Family life deeply strained; marriage ended in divorce ([160:14]).
• Undercover life meant missed birthdays, recitals, routine family time ([222:06]).
• Emotional and spiritual toll, the need for post-operation decompression and support ([159:55]-[163:26]).
• How psychological units now try to pre-empt trauma for undercover agents and those investigating violent crimes against children ([163:08]).

Quote:

“There was a point in the case, and I’m… I’m bouncing his daughter on my knee. His daughter’s one. My youngest daughter’s one. … I love this guy… you’re fearing the end of the case, you’re fearing them finding out who you are, you’re fearing this relationship that you built…” — Scott Payne on undercover friendships ([177:07])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Adrenaline Dumps:
  “When you’re having an adrenaline dump, and it could be any traumatic experience…it’s a real thing. … When it’s my time, it’s my time. I think I’m good at what I do.” ([09:26], [161:47])

• Sacrifice Ritual:
  “They slice it, they fill the cup up with blood. Everybody’s still in the circle except me… It is clotted, it is chunky… I really don’t want to drink this, man… I just stuck two fingers deep into the blood, pulled out my fingers, and sucked the blood off my fingers.” ([138:24]-[140:13])

• Motorcycle Gangs:
  “If you’re an undercover in law enforcement, you’re a 1 percenter. Because there’s like 1% of law enforcement that does undercover work.” ([70:16])

• Friendship with the Target:
  “Our last words to each other, he said, I love you, brother. And I said, I love you, too. And about 40 minutes later, a SWAT team hit his house and he went to prison.” ([218:21])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:44] – Early influences, mentors, Greenville upbringing
• [04:10] – Trauma and emotional cost in law enforcement
• [13:29] – Moving from local policing to federal work
• [16:44] – FBI selection, testing, and backgrounds
• [27:11] – Quantico FBI training and forensics & genetic genealogy
• [31:07] – First undercover work: buying drugs
• [33:09] – Building/maintaining an undercover persona
• [41:19] – Human trafficking, violence, and ethical dilemmas
• [50:32] – Cartel violence realities
• [61:18] – Informants and source development
• [93:16] – Infiltrating domestic terror group 'The Base'
• [135:53], [140:13] – Goat sacrifice fate, ritual, dark humor
• [159:55] – Spiritual/psychological aftermath
• [164:21] – Infiltration of the Outlaws motorcycle gang
• [196:07] – The strip search, close call
• [222:06] – Family cost and undercover’s personal toll
• [227:36] – Knowing when to retire, the quest for satisfaction

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Final Reflections & Tone

Scott Payne paints a vivid, unsanitized picture of the real undercover life—unscripted, fraught with danger, gallows humor, brotherhood, and a heavy price for purpose-driven work. Theo Von grounds the episode with his characteristic blend of curiosity, warmth, and levity, pulling details that make Payne’s harrowing stories personal and relatable, even as they dip into the darkest corridors of American criminal subculture.

Overall Tone: Candid, intense, intermittently humorous, and deeply human—never losing sight of the strain, sacrifice, and moral ambiguity inherent in a career built on pretending to be someone else, in the worst places America has to offer.

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Further Reading / Book Plug

Codename Pale Horse: How I Went Undercover to Expose America’s Nazis
Paperback available now.

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For listeners seeking a rare, honest insight into the shadow worlds of American policing, domestic terror, and the personal costs behind legendary cases—this is an unmissable conversation.

Transcript

[Theo]

Today's guest is a retired FBI special agent who spent 28 years in law enforcement, a lot of that undercover. He infiltrated some of the most dangerous groups in America. Motorcycle gangs, drug traffickers, the cartel. He has a book out called Codename Pale Horse How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis. We go way down the rabbit hole in this one. We want to let people know that some of this. The stories in this one can be a little bit graphic. Had a nice chat with today's guest, Mr. Scott Payne. Scott Payne, the author of Codename Pale Horse. That's your book. And you've. You had some code names, too. I saw that big country they called you.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, I'm more like medium now, but yeah.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah. You coming down, huh? You de Escalate.

[Scott Payne]

I'm aging.

[Theo]

Where. Where are you. Where are you from?

[Scott Payne]

Born and raised in Greenville, South Carolina.

[Theo]

Oh, that's a beautiful city.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, but born and raised there. Lived in Charleston, played ball in Charleston, South Carolina. But I'm. I'm in East Tennessee now, man.

[Theo]

Hey, man. Man. Well, welcome to Tennessee, dude. To catch our listeners up. For those who don't know, you spent 28 years in law enforcement. Right. And. And so that was in police work, swat, FBI, Undercover.

[Scott Payne]

Yep.

[Theo]

And that was undercover with drug, African cartels, white supremacist groups. Yeah. What about your life before law enforcement made you think that that's a direction I want to go in?

[Scott Payne]

Well, it's not. I mean, it's one of those things. You look back and you go, oh, I can see what was happening. I didn't really know what was happening at the time, but I just love connecting with people. I mean, I go into great detail in the book, but, like, in high school, when I was in high school in the 80s, you had a smoking area. Oh, you know, you go out there with your cigarettes, you know, and then you had, like. I could go. I could hang in. And almost every crowd. That's all. It's. It's not saying I could be one of them, necessarily. I could just be accepted. So, potheads, I'm there. Jocks, I'm there. Musicians, I'm there. You look back and you see these things. But something about. I don't know if it started when I became a cop, but, like, some of my mentors. There's a guy named Gary Ward who was at the Greenville County Sheriff's Office in South Carolina, and he was the strongest man in the late 80s. So he came in after, like, Bill Kazmaier. He was. He was A Marine. Former Marine, but at that time he was a Marine. And he won the heavyweight class and bench squat and deadlift. So now he's on narcotics. And he's this Jack Big dude with that. Yeah. Goodness gracious, that's him. Oh, my goodness, baby. Dude, look at him. And he got bigger and then what? Poor.

[Theo]

Look at the thighs on. They would damn. Sell him at auction.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, when I met him, he had a. I mean, he had a beard and everything.

[Theo]

And yeah, dude, I bet he damn goes to the toilet and his yard just grows better.

[Scott Payne]

Oh, dude. You know, I used to ask him, I go. We'd be at the gym and I'm like. I'm like, man, I never see you doing like this exercise or exercise like this, but, man, your neck and your shoulders are. He says, son, when you pick that much weight up off the ground, something's going to grow. I was like, all right, man. Yeah, he used to bust my jobs, man. He helped me perfect my squat. Squat was my strongest lift. So, you know, so.

[Theo]

So you had a role model like that? Kind of.

[Scott Payne]

And he had done undercover and biker stuff, and I was becoming a bike. I mean, I grew up on motorcycles, but I mean, like, riding like American made, you know, Harley out there, going to rallies and all that stuff. And he had done that. And I don't know if that's what gave me the bug. All I know is that, like, it doesn't matter during that timeframe, that 80s 90s, it doesn't matter if it was the cheesiest undercover movie. I love them all.

[Theo]

Amen.

[Scott Payne]

Love them all, man.

[Theo]

Things like that have an effect on your life. The people you meet in the gym have an effect on your life. Yeah. So you get into police work over there in Greenville, South Carolina. Do you remember a day that it just got real? You're like, oh, this is. Now it really feels real, kind of.

[Scott Payne]

Oh, man. This. There's. If you're uniform patrol, I mean, it's. Most people, I guess if you're not a cop, you don't think this way or know it, but you just see so much trauma and stuff and you get desensitized, sorta. I mean, we. We compartmentalize it. And this, we're. We're not very good at it. And that's why first responders, and I'm including medic, fire and military. If we're not number one, we're very high for divorce, suicide, substance abuse, and dying within five years after retiring. So it's a pressure cooker. But, like, going in Uniform, you can show up on all kinds of stuff, man. I've shown up and nothing more. There's plenty of men and women in law enforcement that have done more and seen more. But, you know, you go into a place and this, you know, a trailer caught on fire, and the person died in the position where they were trying to crawl out the. I mean, it's just all kinds of stuff. Somebody gets hit by a train, you're finding pieces of stuff.

[Theo]

Do you remember a day where you're like, I don't know if we're really trained for this kind of.

[Scott Payne]

Well, the thing is jumping on my. In my head right now because I'm still a tactical instructor. I'm an instructor with alert. It's spelled with two Rs, a L, E, R, R, T. But the FBI and Alert married in 2013, and it's the national standard for training law enforcement how to respond to active shooter events. So I was just. I was. We were just putting on a class last week in East Tennessee.

[Theo]

So that's a national organization alert.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So we do get into all kinds of stuff. Stopping the killing, stopping the dying, and then you got to do casual evac. But what I was saying, if you were asking me about something like Greenville County, I had a good friend of mine die in the line of duty. And. And this is what we're trying to do. A lot of times we're training. We're just saying, man, just slow down just a little bit. You know, I get it. You know, young gunning. I'm still got plenty of testosterone in me. You want to just bust in there and run into rooms, and there's a safer way to do it. But what happened to my friend is we weren't really getting the training at that time. But he was the city. I was county, but he was city. But the edge bumped up to each other, right? So he sees somebody that's got a lot of warrants on him, jumps out, chases them on foot, chases them into a building. Somebody clocks him in the head with a board. And now you got tunnel vision. Now he's like. All he's seeing is this. Even though he got hit in the head with a board, he calls it out, but he sees the guy running. And Russ was in shape. Russell Sorrow, he was in shape, man. He took off after him, and we just hadn't had the training to slow down enough to stop and think, to pan and use distance and angles. And he ran right because it was a hard corner, and he ran right past the bad guy. And the guy shot him in the back, and when he went down, he walked up and shot him three times directly in the back of the head. And they rolled him over and shot him in the mouth and in the eye in broad daylight.

[Theo]

So.

[Scott Payne]

But if we would have had that training and you got to get the reps you got. And it's sad to say, but most places are. They don't have the budget anyway. But at least in my experience, when they're having budget problems, the first thing that gets cut is training.

[Theo]

Wow.

[Scott Payne]

And then something bad happens. And then you look and you go, how did that happen? And then you look. And people that are out there in the industry that have the skill sets, they're like, well, there's a lack of training. They didn't know what to do, you know.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah, the rep. I mean.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, you.

[Theo]

You say the reps, man. The muscle memory. Just the idea, you know, it's like. Because otherwise, I'm sure you're running on adrenaline. And I don't know how much. I don't know chemically what is in adrenaline. If there's a part of it, like,

[Scott Payne]

of the chemicals gonna be some endorphins. I mean, it's gonna be like. Yeah, it's gonna probably be like an epinephrine or something.

[Theo]

Right, Right.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

There's not something in there that's like, hey, relax.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, it's not that one. Yeah, it's the opposite of relax.

[Theo]

So we may need some new adrenaline.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, it's. So when we're. We call it a stress inoculation. So out there on the range, get you. And. Or maybe when we're doing force on force with the marking cartridges, you're in a mask, you're in a helmet, enclosed neck protector. And you'll hear people all the time say, man, I couldn't hear anything. When we're doing the test, say, hey, this is how you put the mask on. Put it on. You stand up there and you go, hey, can you hear the sound of my voice? And everybody raises their hand. It's not the helmet. It's your stress.

[Theo]

Wow.

[Scott Payne]

So you do that, and we often refer to it as you bleed on the range so you don't die in the street. But it takes the reps. There's so many videos I can show you military and law enforcement, where the officer has no idea how many rounds they've shot. They have no idea that they did it. A magazine exchange. They had no idea that they did it behind cover, but they did it because they trained until it became instinctive. Or like you said, muscle memory.

[Theo]

Yeah. When things get intense, man. Yeah. It's hard to sit back and like, and. And. And remember what occurred. Yeah, much.

[Scott Payne]

Because when you're. Yeah. Yeah. When you're having an adrenaline dump, and it could be any traumatic experience, it could be your first car wreck. I remember my first car wreck. Everything goes to slow motion.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

You're just like, whoa. And everything's a time dilation. So your eyes click. You're just getting screenshots because it's not a smooth transition. Your auditory exclusion. You sound like you feel like you're underwater. Everything's like. You just hear, whoa, whoa, whoa. And it's just everything. So you can feel your heart beating through your whole body. I will say, though, studies have shown that the better physical shape you're in, the quicker you'll recover from those adrenaline dumps.

[Theo]

So adrenaline dump is a. It's a real thing that you. That you guys got.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, that's what I call it. But, I mean, there's probably another term for it, but.

[Theo]

Yeah, no, this is. Let me see, right here. It says an adrenaline dump is a sudden, large release of the hormone adrenaline, epinephrine, from your adrenal glands that rapidly flips your body into fight or flight mode, followed by a downshift. Once that surge clears and related stress hormones settle, breathing rate increases, and airways relax to pull in more oxygen quickly, blood flow is redirected away from digestion toward muscles, heart, lungs, and brain, so you can move and react faster. And that's on perplexity. Wow, that's. Yeah, I just didn't know that.

[Scott Payne]

And you can come in and out of it. You know, you can be, like, in a situation, have the adrenaline dump, and then you start. Okay, things are calming down now. You're coming back to normal. And then something else happens, and you're like, oh, dad gummet. And you're going right back down to another adrenaline dump.

[Theo]

So. And in your work, you've probably kind of ridden those, like, a lot over the years. Almost like waves, kind of. Yeah. Like you're surfing a little bit.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, but I don't like that kind of surfing. Gosh.

[Theo]

And I never thought about, like, that. That's something. I mean, you always hear the term, oh, you have an adrenaline dump, but I've never really kind of looked at it as to see exactly what's kind of occurring in that. In those moments. So you. You end up moving, I'm assuming, from police work to swat. Is that kind of how it Went. Because I remember I heard you talk one time about those jump out boys, right?

[Scott Payne]

Yes.

[Theo]

And I remember reading about Jump Out Boys, like even down in Louisiana and stuff. Oh, yeah, it was like these sort of like. It was kind of this new thing that was happening. This is what we gathered. It's just regular.

[Scott Payne]

Back in the five zero days, everybody was five oh, everybody, dude. Anybody yelling it on the corner, five oh. I'm like, I'm not even in a Mustang.

[Theo]

You see a white Dodge Neon and people yell 5. Or even you just see a white guy that hadn't been out in a while.

[Scott Payne]

I know, yeah.

[Theo]

And people would yell five oh man.

[Scott Payne]

You're trying to earn some money on the corner by being lookout.

[Theo]

Those were the days, bro. 50 and everybody would run. It didn't even matter, dude. But yeah, but the Jump out boys, it was. It was kind of an unmarked car group that was kind of taking on drug trafficking. That's what, that's how we always heard about it. Like.

[Scott Payne]

So it's not SWAT at the sheriff's office. I didn't get on swat. I got on SWAT in the FBI.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

But I did make vice and narcotics investigator. And that's your jump out boys. It's usually your narcotics unit.

[Theo]

It is.

[Scott Payne]

We're rolling out. I mean, being young and dumb, you know, I'd be out late at night, single party, and I'd come in and thankfully Gary didn't like beat me up or nothing. But I remember we've had to drive like 40 minutes to where we're going to do a jump out. I said, I'm just going nod off a little bit about five minutes out. If you'll just wake me up, let me know. I wake up. And I'd go, all right, because you're young. I mean, you're, you know, nothing's not popping when you stand up, you know, and you just go like, all right, man, we're rolling up and van door opens. Just start running from a dead sleep chasing you.

[Theo]

And what. So I guess, I'm guessing they didn't breathalyze y' all before your shift.

[Scott Payne]

I wasn't drunk. I was just tired the night before. I might have been a little snuggered, but yeah, you know, I'm just. I had the hair of the dog.

[Theo]

Amen. What were some of those calls like?

[Scott Payne]

A lot of those. So. So the jump out stuff, you're going to be going to somewhere that's got a lot of reporting or incidents recorded of high drug trafficking. So you're going to be pulling up. And it may be. It may be quick buys. You may run an undercover in to make a buy. And then you. They either they identify them or you've got it on camera and they're coming. So you go through and it's like, all right, the dude's wearing a yellow coat, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they just pull in right to that and jump out and grab them because they just sold up. If you want to do it that quick. Other times, it might be. For me, once I was in the FBI is really source development. I'd go out there with the state and locals and, you know, observe.

[Theo]

Just get involved.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, you hop in. Yeah, I've been. And you go. Sometimes you can get some good information.

[Theo]

Hmm. So as you're coming up through the police department, what makes you, like, is the police department. Is the activity there kind of not enough? Or is there like an ad? Like, are you in a search for more? Like, what makes you want to kind of evolve your career to try other genres of law enforcement?

[Scott Payne]

There's a couple of things that happen. Number one, the pay. Okay, you're at the sheriff's office for five years, you don't get any raises. County council gives themselves raises. Happens all over the United States. Not just green with South Carolina.

[Theo]

What we all get. What we all get.

[Scott Payne]

Oh, man, I don't know. I was a. That would have been 93 to 98. I was a cop, so I don't know, 50, 60 grand, who knows? But, you know, as a cop, you're also moonlight and you're doing all kinds of side jobs. You know, where you get. Oh, yeah, you get off of work and then you go to Frankie's fun park or some golf thing and you sit there, or you go to the Dollar General and you sit, you know, to. For shoplifting and stuff like that. And you get extra money.

[Theo]

So working like security gig, side gigs. Yeah, yeah. Referee and all kind of stuff. Yeah, you forget that. I forget that the police officers do all kind of stuff. They would be umpires for our game. A lot of times they'd be refereeing basketball. I forgot about all that.

[Scott Payne]

Or. Yeah, or that's your side. Maybe you're. If you're in uniform, you might see the cop at the high school game. That's a side job.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

You know, you're getting paid for that. But I looked at the pay because after five years, it was kind of like, man, I'm not making anything. Even though I was a two striper at that point. But it's like, you look, they would raise the, it was weird because they would raise the, the hiring rate, the, the pay for the hiring. So starting rate. But at some point I probably could have literally quit, walked out the door and came back in with a four year degree and make more than what I'm making, which doesn't make any sense. And you also look at it and you're like, I'm never, I'm never going to max out my retirement. Look, look at how much we're making, how little we get. I'm never going to hit peak unless I live to be 100. And they let me work as a 100-year-old cop, you know, in a wheelchair, you know, but I looked at that. But I was really starting to get a lot more exposure as far as I was learning more about the federal agencies because we would go out and help them with arrest and stuff. And I really didn't know. I thought the FBI just worked bank robberies because that's the only time I ever saw him.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

And I had a sergeant, he said, and my nickname at that time was Kingpin. And he said, kingpin, if I was you, and I was a single man and I had a four year degree, he said, man, I would put in for the FBI and I'd list New York as my first office.

[Theo]

And I thought you said I'd list New York as my first office.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, I'd put New York as I want to go to New York and, and, and that, you know, New York.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

And I told him, I was like, are you, what do you smoke? I'm like, there's no way I'd go to New York. What are you talking about? I started applying because I thought, I said, oh, they weren't. What do they do? And he goes, he says, scott, they do everything. And I'd heard that it was harder to get hired with them. And I took it as a challenge. I filled out that one first and I never filled out another one. Took about probably a year to get through the whole process. But the polygraphs and the physical fitness and all the backgrounds and then there's tests you have to take and then there's another interview test and, and then you get to the academy, you get your letter. And I arrived, I arrived in Quantico, Virginia on 927 and 98. And 9 28. Your first day.

[Theo]

Dang. And before we go into your first day, when it comes to the FBI, what were some of the, like, the criteria that they were looking for? Were there Unique tests and stuff that they had you do along the way. That. That. Or even experiences that in hindsight may have been used to weed people out that you're able to notice now.

[Scott Payne]

Oh, yeah. I mean, there's all. I mean, the, like the phase one test.

[Theo]

Because you tickle me, I'll tell you what's going on.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, right, right.

[Theo]

You know what I'm saying?

[Scott Payne]

That's. I mean, I was very truthful on the polygraph. I did, but I sat in the box for like three and a half hours. I'm like, I don't know. You may tell you. I'm not lying, you know, but that phase one test, it has, like, there's like, questions they ask you, you know, would you be more likely to. And they're giving you scenarios and stuff. But there was this math part and, And I had to go back and I had good grades in college and stuff, but I don't remember any of that. I didn't remember any of the geometry and all the other stuff. Algebra. I was like, I don't remember this.

[Theo]

Nobody does it.

[Scott Payne]

So I go, unless your job has you doing it for something, right?

[Theo]

Nope. If you walked up to 95% of people that graduated those classes right now, I bet they couldn't tell you.

[Scott Payne]

So I.

[Theo]

They couldn't tell you.

[Scott Payne]

I walk in and.

[Theo]

Because nobody's using it because what. It's. Sometimes it's like there's a missing dog or you're enabled or something. If somebody shows up with geometry to find a damn missing dog, I'm pointing at them, brother. They got that pup.

[Scott Payne]

I look at it like this. It helps you find ways to solve problems is the way I kind of look at it.

[Theo]

That's a good attitude.

[Scott Payne]

That's, that's, that's, you know, but my. So the middle section was math.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Scott Payne]

Now they do look for certain backgrounds. When I was coming in, if you were an accountant, cpa, that's good. Attorney with. You pass the bar. That's good. Former military intel, foreign language speaking and diverse. And I came in under diverse, so 4 year degree, 3 years of experience, but I was a former cop, so that helped. If they're looking for that.

[Theo]

So they're bringing all types into the FBI.

[Scott Payne]

Completely diverse. Yeah. I mean, you got former doctors, former biochemists.

[Theo]

Really?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, it's insane.

[Theo]

So it's not just police officers?

[Scott Payne]

No, no, not especially not in the FBI.

[Theo]

I never thought of that. I always just feel like it's police and then it's. And they're military.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Yeah. Or military. And they evolve into working with the FBI.

[Scott Payne]

One of my best friends that through the academy with me, he was a former Walmart manager and he smoked the fitness test and he was a great agent. So I mean it's like, yeah, all kinds of backgrounds. Actually, I think that's one of the strongest points of the FBI is the diversity. But sometimes we place people in the wrong places, you know?

[Theo]

Yeah. Oh, once they're in you.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, yeah.

[Theo]

Oh, I could see that.

[Scott Payne]

Like you got knuckle dragger like me and you want to stick me on some highfalutin, I don't know, health care fraud squad. Yeah, it's not me. Yeah, yeah.

[Theo]

Now, but if you want to put somebody into the health care fraud squad that's familiar with rolling back prices.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. An accountant or a former medical person

[Theo]

or a four more Walmart employee.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, there you go.

[Theo]

And that's the guy we need.

[Scott Payne]

So I'm more of the greeter. Yeah, yeah, I'm that guy.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, oh, they got him out here for a reason, you know. Yeah. And sorry I interrupted you, man. So, so, so you're going through the phase one test, right?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So there's questions, there's, there's a. There was basically three parts, but the middle part was all that algebra and geometry and all this stuff. And I mean I studied, I studied and studied, but as I walk in, I see I've already met some people and they're full blown CPA accountants who've been doing this. When we walked out of that thing, I saw them going, I don't even know what that was. I think I failed. And I'm like, well, if you failed. I know I failed, man. Like this, you're supposed, this is your world, man. But I just started just circling stuff when I was running out of time. So the law of averages was on my side that day. And you passed pick C. I just went down.

[Theo]

Yes. Strange.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, I guess I did. I don't know if it was something to break you, like to throw you off mentally just to stress you out, because then the third part was backed into questions again. If you've ever taken the MMP2 for a job, it's MMP2 something. It's like 547 questions and a lot of places have it and even our psychological unit has it. And I think you have to take it like once every two years or four years. But I mean, it's like so many different ways to ask the same question. But if you are hiding something under the surface. I don't know. Maybe when you get stressed somewhere in there, psychologically, it's going to slip out on the back end.

[Theo]

Oh, that would make sense. Because sometimes a simple word, one word, changing something a little change a little bit of thing, an angle.

[Scott Payne]

How so? You do find your mother sexy and you do, like, harm in small animals. And you are fascinated with fire because at the beginning of the test, you weren't, you know.

[Theo]

Yeah, well, I have some.

[Scott Payne]

And then they walk you out.

[Theo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have some hobbies.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

You know, but. But no, I love what you're saying, man. The turn of phrase, a little bitty bit can lead to something so different. And also sometimes just waiting when somebody thinks you're going to talk. Just waiting. And then their energy sometimes.

[Scott Payne]

Oh, yeah. Starts eating them up.

[Theo]

Yeah. You got to fill the space. I got to say something.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, yeah.

[Theo]

Because what does their silence mean? Is their sile mean something?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

You know, and then you start to interpret in your head, what does their silence mean? And that's kind of a crazy.

[Scott Payne]

So maybe I was. Maybe I wasn't completely truthful.

[Theo]

Yeah. But maybe I wasn't completely clothed, you know? Yeah, man. Wow. Yeah. This is interesting stuff. Thanks for your time today, man.

[Scott Payne]

Thank you for having me.

[Theo]

Okay, so you get through. You get through the testing. You pass that, and then you were in. When do people go to Quantico? Is that then?

[Scott Payne]

Pretty much. I don't know.

[Theo]

Because that's what you hear about on the movie. Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

If you. It depends on. I know you have to pass phase two, but I can't remember when the polygraph falls in and when the physical fitness test. But basically all that. You're going to go to phase one. You're going to polygraph background. Huge background. Thorough, thorough background, because you're going to be going into a job where you could get top secret clearance. So. Yeah, it's like they know everything. Every credit card you got, any debt you've got.

[Theo]

Did you have to sit and tell some secrets and stuff about yourself that you didn't want to tell or how.

[Scott Payne]

No, because I'm transparent. That's just me. I mean, I'll just tell them. I mean, I'm not gonna hold it back. I'm not gonna lie. And really, in the FBI, I don't know right now because I didn't work under Cash, but I retired under Ray, and I came in under Louis Free. But if you lie under inquiry, then that's recorded. You're kind of dead to us. Because you can't go testify anymore and you can't go build a case because you're going to have to release that you were caught lying. And then the defense is going to eat you apart. So.

[Theo]

So the truth has to. The truth is the only way to get there.

[Scott Payne]

Right. So I've seen some people do some or have read about in quarterly reports, some things that employees have done, whether they're, whether they're gun toters or whether they're professional staff. But in mitigation, if they didn't lie, I mean, we're going to try to get you help and stuff, but. But then you read the next thing and it's like, oh, somebody was called to the table on time and attendance fraud. Like they were fudging the numbers under inquiry. They lied, dismissed, fired. And you're like, well, if I've learned anything, don't lie, don't lie, don't lie.

[Theo]

Wow. And it's crazy that you would then end up in a world where you're going undercover, where it's like, okay, now, now I'm lying. Yeah. Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Except for now. Now I'm going back to Scott. Yeah.

[Theo]

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[Scott Payne]

So it's pretty standard test. It's like the Cooper Institute standard, but. But basically when I came in, you had to be able to pass a two mile run in a certain amount of time. You had to be able to do at a sprint course called the shuttle run. You start on your back, you sprint like 25 yards, turn on a cone, back down, back down, that kind of stuff. And then push up, sit ups, pull ups, but that's just the pass or fail stuff. And then you get in and you basically. I mean, Quantico, I look at it like the. Remember that old 80s, maybe the biodome with Polly Shore? And that's what I look at it like. Because I have been in that building for four days and realize I have not gotten fresh air, I've not stepped outside this building. Yeah, yeah. So you can go from. Yes. So you can go from. That's Jefferson right there at the front. That's where I stayed. You can go in. And from Jefferson, you go down to the cafeteria, you get your breakfast and then you go to class, you go to lunch, you go back, you can go to your room, go to the gym, go to the boardroom at night, hit the bar, go back, and you never step foot outside.

[Theo]

Wow.

[Scott Payne]

And that's our track at the back. It looks different now. Or you know what? No, they did put a building in the middle of it. Now, there used to be a nice ropes course and all kinds of stuff, but a lot of running, a lot more running than I ever did. I was. I was a lineman, so.

[Theo]

So once you were there, that became a big part of it was the physical conditioning.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. And you're in class all day, you're learning all kinds of stuff. I mean, you're getting legal, you're doing this. And then we're in Hogan's alley learning tactics, firearms range, learning how to be a better shooter.

[Theo]

What was one of the more unique classes kind of that you took that Kind of stood out.

[Scott Payne]

I always loved anything forensics. Like even though we all know how the O.J. simpson trial turned out and everything. But if you have a forensics person come in and break down exactly what was found at that it just got screwed up how it was collected and then the defense did what they were supposed to do. They created doubt in the jury's mind. But you can some stuff like that. If a forensics person comes in and they break that down on like this is what we found here. And it's just getting better and better with like. I forget what it's called. But now they can take your d. There's something that's matching up your DNA. Let's just say they're clearing like a 30 year old case.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Because the DNA is there from that original collection before we even knew we were going to be able to test this kind of stuff. And then now they're going back and they can actually pull things. And you know how you kind of like do that like almost like a 23andMe or that genealogy thing. They're doing that and they can narrow it down to like almost. That's it.

[Theo]

Testing DNA on cold cases. Use codis. We know that.

[Scott Payne]

Genetic genealogy.

[Theo]

Oh, genetic genealogy. There you go. If CODIS has no match, labs upload the profile to public databases like GED match. I'll tell you this out the gate. You do GED match, you going to find some of my family.

[Scott Payne]

I got that family too.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

I'm first. First generation law enforcement. First generation four year degree bro.

[Theo]

A lot of empty diploma frames in our area.

[Scott Payne]

My dad dropped down to 10th grade.

[Theo]

Did he.

[Scott Payne]

And he said he stopped paying attention in the eighth.

[Theo]

Oh, 10's good. Yeah. Oh yeah. Gee was. That was a popular pastime in our area.

[Scott Payne]

So they just cleared. Well, I was, I was putting on training somewhere and somebody was telling me how they just cleared this case.

[Theo]

That's amazing.

[Scott Payne]

And it was. They did that and they were able to use that family genealogy to narrow it down to. Oh my goodness. This is one of the suspects that they interviewed. And this is one.

[Theo]

Wow. So. Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

So 30 years later, somebody's getting cuffs put on your.

[Theo]

I love that.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

I feel like you could feel the timeline of existence breathe a little. When justice is served. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I like a little bit of justice. Why so and so how long is the whole overall training for the, for, for FBI?

[Scott Payne]

FBI, it's somewhere around five months. Sometimes it adds another month and. But, but somewhere around five months.

[Theo]

And what percentage of People do they eliminate sort of along the way or is that, you know.

[Scott Payne]

Well, it depends. It's a case by case basis. There was a time where I would go back and I would, because I was a firearms instructor, tactical instructor, undercover guy and all that stuff. But I would be back at Quantico with my peers who were in those units. And you'd look at the, and you'd be like, look at the last class and you see like half of them failed. I'm like, what, what is going on? It kind of ebbs and flows. I don't, I don't think half failure is normal. But I'm not there every day, so I don't know.

[Theo]

Got it. And when did your undercover work start? Did that start from the FBI?

[Scott Payne]

No, it started at the sheriff's office. So once I made vice and narcotics investigator, you have an opportunity to go to undercover techniques or technical surveillance. These are classes that they were put on in Columbia, South Carolina at the Criminal Justice Academy. And once you get certified in that, then they'd let you go work undercover. But I mean, just, just picture me now. Number one, I don't want to mess up. Number two, you're around, you're around a bunch of older guys and gals who are seasoned in and street level buys and all this stuff. And I'm just trying to. You're going to have to show up. You got, you know, it's not up to them to like me. It's up to me to get them to like me.

[Theo]

Got it? You got to ingratiate yourself.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. And it's a tough crowd, usually is. Military, law enforcement, we're pretty, we're pretty tough crowds. So imagine me, number one, not wanting to screw up. Number two, being scared to death. And number three, thinking about them watching it and not wanting to screw up in front of them too. So my Gary Ward and some of those people, you know. But yeah, I mean, the first crack rock I bought, I was probably 275lbs with low body fat, you know, just jacked. And I'm like, I don't look like I smoke crack unless I just started. I just started back, you know, like by crack rock and drive around for 15 minutes and come back and buy another one. I'm not the guy smoking it, you know.

[Theo]

And so, so something like that, that's a real instance. You tough to come back another one. And would you have to seem cracked out when you came back around?

[Scott Payne]

Well, what I was told because I never smoked crack was that it would wear off in 15 minutes. That's why they didn't care if you came back and bought again, so. Yeah, but they were probably giving me little slivers of soap or something. Who knows? But once I did it, the bug got me. Yeah, like the, like the undercover bug. I don't know what it was. It's not lying. It's not like, you know, I used to like. It's the infiltration. Yeah. I mean, getting to know people. But during the book process, I can't remember what I used to term it as. But now I just realized, I go, holy crap. I just love connecting with people.

[Theo]

Wow.

[Scott Payne]

I don't care even if you. Even if I get called out at three in the morning because I was considered a good interviewer so, you know, to either get information to confession or, you know, flip them and maybe they work with us. And I would go, and I didn't mind getting called out like that. And. And I love it. The crazier the better. I mean, rich, poor, big, tall, smart, dumb. I love it all.

[Theo]

Did you guys have groups that would, like, like, say you go on, like, you're get put on an assignment? Is that what it's called?

[Scott Payne]

Basically, yeah.

[Theo]

For undercover. Yep. And they could be very small, or they could be bigger ones. Deeper. Deeper or shallow ones. Do they. Do you go to like, wardrobe and stuff like that? Like, do they have all of that? Like, who creates your backstory? How does all that happen?

[Scott Payne]

I say ultimately, ultimately, it's on you and what I teach, what I know. Right?

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

You know, you go, come out. I believe I did used to call the unit. I'd go, when are you going to call me for. Because I was big country, even though I'm not big anymore. But they'd be like. I'd call headquarters and I'd go, when are you going to let me do one of those Wall street jobs? You know, one of these big old tycoon jobs. And they're like, no. And I'm like, I can say buy, sell, you know, put a big hat on and have that balls hog Longhorn on the front of my car rolling in. And they're like, no. And I get fine because it's my skill set. My skill set leads me to backwoods with meth heads and white supremacists and whatever else, you know.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah, dude, those are some of my neighbors, probably. What. What were some of those early spots that you got put into?

[Scott Payne]

Well, early on at the sheriff's office, it was the, you know. Yeah. Goodbye, crack rock. Which was terrifying to me. And then it might be y. Because I never bought crack. I'm pulling down there, man. I barely cracked the window, you know, I was just like, they go, what you want? Because they come around the car, you only go, what you want. I'm like, I want a 20, you know? He's like, roll down the window, you idiot. You know, I'm like, I'm sliding money through the.

[Theo]

Let me Venmo.

[Scott Payne]

They didn't have no Venmo back then. That'd been good, though. What's your cash at, bro? You know, I'll send it to you right now.

[Theo]

Oh, dang, man.

[Scott Payne]

That's pretty good. And then type in. What's it for? Drugs. Yeah.

[Theo]

Crack.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, but that was the odd stuff there. But I started. I started cutting my teeth. But when I got in the FBI, my first long term, I mean, I was doing some cameo stuff, which cameo is basically what it sounds like. Like on a TV show, you're there just to help somebody else. Or it's a quick. It's not even a full blown undercover operation. It's just going to be one meet.

[Theo]

Like, give me an example of that.

[Scott Payne]

Like a. Like a by bust or we're going to deliver. L. A takes off. A huge load of dope is supposed to be coming to New York. So L. A gets on the phone with FBI in New York. We're like, okay, what does it look like? We want measurements, all this. We would go build the exact same shipment, and then we would deliver it to where it was supposed to go so we can get the bad guys on that end. No, and that's just a one time. So, I mean, I'm in a truck with NYPD detective, and we're just dirtied up and going to deliver.

[Theo]

So in that way, were you able to bust both ends of the. Of the.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, yeah.

[Theo]

What is the reason that they would do it like that as opposed to just showing up at the actual meetup?

[Scott Payne]

Because sometimes you don't know if it's getting delivered to a fictitious address or where is it going to go. But we were delivering it, and. And it depends on the Assistant United States Attorney, because everybody's a little different. So maybe this one says, this is all I need to charge them. Somebody might be a little bit more thorough. They go, no, I want to actually know that they open the box. Well, how can we do that? Well, let's build something so we. When we walk away, it's not enough that they take possession. We want to walk away and know that they pop the. The box before we hit it.

[Theo]

And how would you guys know that? Would you guys put cameras in the box?

[Scott Payne]

Something some tech guy is going to do something. I mean, there's so much technology now. I mean, I don't know what they can do. Yeah, but of course my people watch TV and think we can do stuff. We can anyway.

[Theo]

Is that true?

[Scott Payne]

Well, I don't know. This getting better. I said I saw. I've seen some things since I retired. I'm not going to say what they are because it's tradecraft, but it really made me want to go back undercover just to use it for a recording device. I was like, I cannot believe. I'm like, you know, well, they just

[Theo]

had those SUVs that they bought. I think they had Israeli technology in them. I don't know if you saw that there was these SUVs that allegedly can drive by an area and read your phone, basically. Can you bring that up, Trevin?

[Scott Payne]

It's probably like if you're on Bluetooth or Wi Fi and it's pulling stuff off your phones.

[Theo]

Israel's Palantir rival is selling $1 million spy vans to US cops. Is this a recent story? Because this was like three days ago. Oh, yeah, this is good. There we go. Let me see. Cognite, which sells technology to snoop on phone locations largely in Israel and Europe, is making inroads in America by tricking out trucks. Spy tech. Texas State Police's purchase of four brand new Chevy Tahoes this March was unusual, not just because of the staggering $4.5 million price tag, but because the vehicles were kitted out with technology that could monitor the locations of nearby cell phones. Made by Israeli surveillance company Cognite, the tech simulates a mobile phone tower, which forces nearby phones to connect to it. That enables cops to keep tabs on any phones in the vicinity, whether they're owned by a suspect in a case or not. Huh.

[Scott Payne]

You're going to have some issues there. Sounds like I'm reading. I'm listening to what you're reading. But I'm telling you, you've got the Fourth Amendment protection. So if I'm going to be able to track you, at a minimum, I'm probably going to have to get a court order. A lot of places, a lot of times now you have to get a full blown search warrant.

[Theo]

Do you think, though, that maybe they're buying these in advance and they know that the laws are going to change?

[Scott Payne]

That could be, but I can tell you right now, if somebody's coming by and pulling Your stuff and they're actually tracking you. I mean, like you can like say if you've got a scanner and you're riding through apartment complex back in the day, you could pick up different cell phones and stuff. Is that, I mean, is that a Title 3 wiretap? I mean, if you're using it for evidence, it is. But for us, like, that's a huge invasion of privacy. For me, everybody who listens to your phone, a pin register trap and trace that's just going to let me track your phone and maybe see where you are. Off of towers, I'll get to see phone numbers coming in and calling in and calling out and texting and texting out. But I can't read.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

Well, I can't read the content.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

If you start getting into that kind of stuff, like if somebody puts a camera in your house, that's a, that's a, that's a Title three. And it's, and it's not easy to get. It's not tv. It's not like, hey, I need to be on this phone in five minutes.

[Theo]

It's different.

[Scott Payne]

We can. Now you can, you can track a phone in an emergency or there are some, maybe it's harder, especially if you got a burner phone. But there are things like if somebody's missing or it's a threat to life or maybe a cop goes down and we're trying, or somebody, we're trying to do that. That's, that's, we might be able to expedite it a little bit, but you're still going to get some type of order.

[Theo]

Got it. And now sometimes it seems like that police or FBI, they may use these tactics for the moment, knowing that they're not just to, to behoove them to advance in whatever that moment is, to have strategy, knowing that it may not hold up in court later.

[Scott Payne]

Well, I wouldn't do that really, for me.

[Theo]

Oh, but does it make sense what I'm saying?

[Scott Payne]

I know it does. It does. But like the way I've always done

[Theo]

it, like do it now. Ask, ask permission later.

[Scott Payne]

Like that's forgiveness.

[Theo]

Right.

[Scott Payne]

As for forgiveness, it seems like I

[Theo]

could see that being a part of maybe this strategy, I don't know.

[Scott Payne]

Well, that would be an on the spot kind of thing. But generally, or let's just say for the most part, I would not. I'm retired, I'm not bonded right now. But I wouldn't build a bad case or do something like that because that's a violation. But if there was A gray area. If. If this is just me, personally speaking, I'm not saying it's covered. It's not covered by policy, but there have been horrific cases where girl. Young girl, goes missing. I'm kicking myself for not remembering her name right now, but she goes missing in Florida, and everybody's looking for her. So you go out and you start canvassing the neighborhood. Well, you might look, and you can see, hey, man, we've got, like, registered sex offenders right here where she went missing. Well, that's the first doors I'm knocking on. Sorry if I defend you, but you're a registered sex offender.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

And your trade. Yeah. And they're in. They. After the fact. They found her. She was dead. She was buried alive with her. With her stuffed animal. But in the original canvas, they went and talked to the guy at the trailer that was holding her, but they never got in. So me. That I would. I would violate. I'm getting in there.

[Theo]

If you feel it.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, I'm getting. Then, oh, you don't have a problem. You're not holding. You mind if I walk in here and look? And if you say no? Well, okay, well, we'll find a way to get in here.

[Theo]

Right.

[Scott Payne]

But I'm not leaving.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

You know what I mean?

[Theo]

Have you had instances like that where you had to trust your instincts?

[Scott Payne]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. As a case agent. Well, even as an undercover. But as an undercover, you're in a situation, and you're. You're basically playing chess. You're trying to be five steps ahead of them, and they're thinking, you're also, like, tennis. Like, I'm serving it to you. And I have no idea which way you're hitting it back, but I'm over here going, you know, I'm at goalie. I don't know what you're throwing, but I'm trying to be ready as a case agent out there, trying to call a shot. Call, call shots right there on the spot. You know, I had a case in McAllen, Texas, where I was at for six and a half years. And what it was is that the. The. They were undocumented aliens being smuggled in. We get the call because the undocumented family is already in Virginia. They had paid for two sisters and a daughter to come through. And what happened is the smuggling organization got them across the river. So you get them across the river, at least in the Rio Grande Valley, you get them across the river, and then they're usually at a staging location, a house or something, because now they've Got to get picked up by coyote, a walker, and they're going to be handed off and now they're going to be walked through the brush around the checkpoints to where they'll be picked up and then carried to wherever where this one happened was. One of the sisters was physically and mentally challenged and they left her in the brush to dry, to die. They left her in the brush to die. And border patrol found her. She was 16. But they couldn't figure out a lot so they called child protective services, they came over and were able to figure out you've got family. They actually figured out the other family was in Virginia and they were now being extorted. They got them across the river, got them into a house and now they're calling saying, hey, we already dumped one of your sisters. Your five year old daughter's sick and we're not getting her anything to make her better unless you pay us more money. So they're extorting them even though they paid. And in my mind, I think that's truly a victim, even though undocumented alien is an illegal charge. But I'm not working undocumented alien. I'm working kidnapping, extortion.

[Theo]

Well, yeah, Especially if, I mean, I think there's a moral code inside of a lot of us.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Where you have to decide what's going on.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

You know, and sometimes you can't even decide. It's just a built in thing. You're like, this is how I'm going to operate in this space. Right. It's a very human thing.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So in that case particularly, we're probably running for three or four days nonstop because we're trying to find this phone that they're calling on that the bad guys are using to call the family. I've already hit FBI up in Virginia and say, hey, can you go over and give them recording devices, all that, all the stuff they need. And it was a Honduran family. And about that third day we're out and all we know is that the phone, like I said, dislocation stuff, it's not, I'm not giving away.

[Theo]

Right. You're not getting text messages, getting some location tags.

[Scott Payne]

But it's not, it's not like, it's always, it's not always pinpoint, you know, it's not like, hey, that's it moving right there, 10ft away.

[Theo]

That's right.

[Scott Payne]

Not at least when I was working it then. And we know pretty much that the phone is somewhere in the store and they're like, hey, it's moving. And then at the same time, four different people come out when they're all walking into cars. And we've been up for three days straight and we're all, most of us are parents, which doesn't matter if you're a parent or not. You're still going to be like. But you're getting personally involved in this case because it's a five year old girl. And I had to make the call and like, what are you. Because I was leading it. And they're like, which one? And I'm like, look, I'm going, oh, son of a. I'm going, okay, here we are. Here we are here.

[Theo]

Yeah, it's like the masked singer or whatever.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. I'm like, come on, Lord, hit me. And then I'm like, let's go with that one. And we follow it away and get to a point to where that one stops. And then we were able to say, yep, the phone moved and it's somewhere close to there. So then we go in and hit the house. But the house didn't have the undocumented people in it. It had, it had. The guy had the ledgers, had all the names. Of course the phone was in there. They were trying to flood, they were trying to flush stuff and everything. We get in there and cut the phones on and I call the bad guy phone and it rings and I go, it's you. So we do a long interrogation and luckily the guy broke and took us to the stash house and we recovered the girl and her sister. Yeah.

[Theo]

Amen.

[Scott Payne]

And of course we're all crying, but all the, all the grown men, my friend, who's a female border patrol agent, she's like, she's looking at. All of us are like, you know, because we put the young girl on the phone with her Honduran mother and she's like, mommy. And you know, and she still had her schoolgirl outfit on. Man, they want to dry. They want to dry.

[Theo]

Dang.

[Scott Payne]

This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace, and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message, and it turned out the seller was so super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for from a browse to a bike ride this summer. Find more on Facebook.

[Theo]

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[Scott Payne]

It can. Yeah, that one did. Because, I mean, you know, it's like. But. But again, yeah, but think about it. Say you're. I'm like. I've. I've interviewed. Not this, not that case. But you're interviewing somebody. That's his nicknames El Acha once because the cartels already cut two of his fingers off. They've been tortured. They've been all that me yelling at him. How am I going to work this to where I can get something.

[Theo]

Wow.

[Scott Payne]

Out of you? I can't. I can't chop your fingers off.

[Theo]

Right.

[Scott Payne]

We have a constitution.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

That would be frowned upon.

[Theo]

Yeah, maybe.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Yeah. I mean. Yeah. I mean, you got to. You've hoped to play by the rules.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Did you see some pretty severe stuff that came across the board, like how. How intense is some of those scenarios and stuff down there? Like, you hear so much about the cartels and, like, the level of violence that's like, almost something that we can't even maybe fathom sometimes.

[Scott Payne]

A lot of people don't. They value life a little differently. I'm not saying Hispanics because somebody's gonna say, oh, you're saying all Hispanics. I'm not. I love. I mean, I got tons of Latino friends and. But the cartel at the time I was down there, Oz. El Cardenas was running it, which once Department of Justice took him off it actually created a vacuum because now everybody's like, well, who's going to run the Gulf Cartel? And then you got the enforcers, the Santas that are saying, you know what, we're the ones that kidnap everybody and torture them. We're going to run it. And then you got maybe the government saying they're going to do it. And then Senuloa cartel comes in and says, we're taking over, and then you just end up with a bunch of heads and bags and vans.

[Theo]

Really?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. I mean, it's. You would.

[Theo]

Is that a real thing? Heads and bags and vans?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you like. It was getting bad enough to where. This was shortly after I left, but it was getting bad enough to where because everybody's vying for the territory. If you're in a territory and you have a decent vehicle, like, it looks like you've got some kind of money, because there's really not a lot of middle class. You're either low or high, and you're going through the wrong territory, neighborhood, whatever, and. And maybe it's the satis going, well, you're not one of us, are you? One of the Sinaloa cartel? And they pull it over and I mean, yeah, then there's. There's been innocent bystanders lost, you know, because they didn't know any better.

[Theo]

And, you know, man, almost invested in a damn zoo down there in Sinaloa. Buddy of mine, we almost bought into a zoo down there.

[Scott Payne]

Well, I mean, I'VE never been to Senior Loa, so there's probably, like, a lot of places that are outside the United States. There's going to be. Well, it's just like in the United States, there's going to be good and bad. Yeah.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah. My friend Andrew just went fishing down there, and he said he had one of the best experiences of his whole life. Some of the greatest fishing he's ever done.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

What smuggling did you see? Did you see any human trafficking? We hear about that term so much. What did you see?

[Scott Payne]

So when I got there, I was working drugs. Obviously, you're on the border, but you got every federal agency there. Legacy, ice, dea, atf, us FBI, dtf.

[Theo]

If there's some hotties, huh?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, I saw all kinds of stuff when I got down there. I was working drugs at first. I mean, it could be 50 kilos of cocaine and a tire.

[Theo]

See that much. What's the most you ever saw, man?

[Scott Payne]

I personally probably get into that 100 kilo mark.

[Theo]

How much is that? Show me with your hands.

[Scott Payne]

Well, a kilo is 2.2 pounds, so 100 of those.

[Theo]

Wow. I saw two eight balls once, way bigger than that in Destin. It was in Destiny.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, two eight balls. I used to buy them five at a time. Undercover. Undercover. Undercover all the time. Yeah. But you get deeper and you get into the more serious. Now you're getting up to, like, ounces. You're getting up to kilo buys.

[Theo]

And so you'd see real. That much cocaine. You saw real. Yeah, real cocaine.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. Yeah, but that's hard.

[Theo]

Was it hard not to smile when you saw it?

[Scott Payne]

No, you smile after the takedown, and then you get your. You get the photo, you go up there and do your trophy shot, you know, But. But that's not. Just picture if you were working in Miami, and like I'm saying, where I worked, man, 100 kilos or you. But you go down the border. Well, man, you can trip over £500 just riding up and down the river. Yeah, because it's so porous and stuff. But the biggest weed seizure I got was £5,000.

[Theo]

Wow.

[Scott Payne]

We literally filled up to try. I mean, my truck was loaded. I was sitting in the seat like this. Just. I mean, I couldn't even. It was just packed, and we've loaded another truck. It was a lot.

[Theo]

Did you even get a buzz driving with it? Could you smell it? Was it that strong of a smell?

[Scott Payne]

It's strong. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Theo]

But, dude, one time me and my friend Billy Conforto rip and he was one of the. He was one of the first gay male prize fighters in America. But he. We got taken out of a car. We had some weed on us. Some pounds of weed. The cops pulled us over like shit. So we put it in our front, like, in our pants. Yeah. And the cop was like, I'm to sit y' all in a. In. In the cruiser while I search the vehicle. So he sat us in there, and we. We just had it.

[Scott Payne]

Was it raking, though?

[Theo]

Huh?

[Scott Payne]

Which. Could you smell it?

[Theo]

I don't know why he thought that, but it was like. Well, he just put us in there. We had it in our. So now we're sitting with it in the cruiser. He searched the car and then just said, okay, nothing to see there. Put you guys back in it. You guys take it easy.

[Scott Payne]

There you go.

[Theo]

So I don't know what made him think it. Maybe he did smell it originally, but

[Scott Payne]

you lied another day.

[Theo]

We got lucky that day.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

And we didn't do too much, you know, we weren't doing anything real heavy over there. And I think back then, if you were gay, you had to be high to even just get through it. It was just a different time.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

If you're prize fighting, too, you know. But anyway, what were you talking about?

[Scott Payne]

So. So I've seen a lot of the dope stuff, but just picture if you're in Miami, like I just told you, 100 kilos, and you think that's a lot. Well, what if you bust up in the hole of a ship and you've got 2,000 kilos? I mean, that. You see that stuff, and I'm like, I've never seen 2000, but I've seen. I've seen some big stacks.

[Theo]

Does it get competitive to be on a big bus?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, sure. Friendly competition. Or I call it friendly, you know, DEA versus FBI. Yeah. We always. Bus chops.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

And you're working cases together. But then I switched to alien smug one. Because at that point in time in McAllen, well, I guess in the Bureau, it was becoming a serious topic to look at Special interest alien smugglers smuggled. And it's not just. You're not saying, hey, I'm looking for the. The normal human trafficking. We are looking for people being smuggled in from threat countries. So, like, your threat countries. Russia, China.

[Theo]

And why would they be being smuggled in? Like, what is.

[Scott Payne]

Well, that's what we're trying to figure out.

[Theo]

Got it. So you.

[Scott Payne]

Are they up the bat? Are they up. Are they going to. Coming in here with nefarious. Plans or are they legitimately trying to get out of where they're at?

[Theo]

Is it.

[Scott Payne]

Feel better at life.

[Theo]

Got it. It's. It's interesting to me that, like, that. That would be kind of an assignment for you guys. Right. Or like that would come down as part of the detail.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

But then at the same time, you would have the government that would, like, lackadaisically, it would seem, allow people to come into the country. Right. Like, it seems like they're trying to play both sides of the scale there.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, I don't like it.

[Theo]

Did it ever feel to you like, like the government was starting some of the problems that the gut that you guys were then being hired to go and solve? Like, did it ever.

[Scott Payne]

Well, ATF's fast and furious. That would be a yes. I mean, you know, there's plenty of document documentaries out there and some good books.

[Theo]

Oh, is that. I'm not even familiar with that.

[Scott Payne]

Fast and Furious. That's when they.

[Theo]

The movie.

[Scott Payne]

No, no, no, no, no, no. That was their operation Fast and Furious where they were. It was, it was alleged that they were allowing guns to go to the cartel. And then those guns would show back up. Yeah, those guns would show back up. And one of those guns killed a border patrol agent.

[Theo]

Wow.

[Scott Payne]

But you're smuggling. So look at it like this. And I'm not trying to bash anybody.

[Theo]

I mean, it doesn't seem like it.

[Scott Payne]

Everybody, everybody's got. Every agency has their black eyes. But just look at it this way. If I released a kilo of cocaine into the streets and it came from me, an FBI agent, anybody gets sick, hurt, killed over that, that's. That's my fault. That's a liability. So I'm looking at it the same way with fully automatic weapons and stuff.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

I just know that. I know as a case agent working what I've worked, how hard it is to get approvals for anything close to that. So I was a little dumbfounded at how. How that worked out, how the heck that happened, you know, just so our

[Theo]

listeners know about it. Operation Fast and Furious, a controversial 2009 and 2011 Bureau of Alcohol, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives sting operation used a gun walking tactic, letting illicit firearms pass to Mexican cartels to track high level leaders, which fail when tracked. Weapons were lost and used in violent crimes. Wow. So they let them through to be able to kind of, maybe I guess they would tag them or find some way to trade, follow them so they could know who these people were that were getting them the high Levels. But then those were used to kill our own people.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Led by the Phoenix, Arizona field office under Project Gunrunner, allowed straw buyers to illegally purchase thousands of weapons with the intent to trace them to major cartel leaders. Agents were ordered not to interdict or seize weapons during purchases, losing track of roughly 2,000 firearms. They were exposed after the Border Patrol agent Brian Terry was killed in 2010 by rifles tied to the operation resulted in Attorney General Eric Holder being held in contempt of Congress in 2012 for withholding documents through a Department of justice report cleared though a Department of justice report cleared him of direct knowledge of the tactic. So was this. This was happening while you were working? Yeah. And did that scare you?

[Scott Payne]

I'm probably going to get a lot of hate from atf. I'm sorry about that. I love atf. I got a lot of friends at atf.

[Theo]

Well, I have a lot of friends that do a lot of things. And it doesn't mean that they're bosses or the people above them may not be having some separate interests at times.

[Scott Payne]

Right. And the FBI, we're an easy target, too. They can, they can. They can name plenty of things that organization. But I just. Thinking off the top of my head, like, and you know, you got to be careful because, like, let me use an example. Like, I'm a vice narcotics investigator, so in Greenville, South Carolina, at the time I was there, it was illegal to gamble.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Scott Payne]

So maybe, maybe we identify three major gambling operations. Maybe we pop one of the ones or go and interview them and flip them. But the head of that one is now giving us information on the other two, and we're working the other two. But you don't want a Whitey Bulger situation where you're letting this, your source go and wreak havoc for free. While. So it's always a. You know what I mean? It's, It's.

[Theo]

It's a balance.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. And that's, that's why when we do stuff like that, if. If you provide information, we let you know what you can and can't do. And I've told many, many sources that I've had for 28 years of career, I'll be like, look, if you do this, I cannot take up for you at all. But if you call me before it happens, I can take up. You know what I mean? It's kind of that thing.

[Theo]

Understood. Oh, wow. Yeah. Are there. So when dealing with informants, this has got to be pretty fascinating. So you dealt with a lot of informants?

[Scott Payne]

A bunch for me. Operating an informant for me. Is a lot like undercover, and they mesh. Because when I'm an undercover, I'm essentially being a source for another FBI agent. It's just that I'm not a criminal. I don't have a felon on my record. I'm actually a bonded law enforcement officer. But I'm still going in and getting the information. I'm still getting the recorded stuff. I'm still that person. So for me, when I'm dealing with sources, I go, you're doing what I do on other cases, but I'm asking you to do it for me.

[Theo]

First of all, what. What? People in, like, towns and regular towns in America are actually end up being, like, informants or narcs or whatever. Because, dude, when I was in school, you'd always hear, like, ricky's a narc or whatever. Yeah, dude. Like, bro, Ricky. It would be like one kid, like, wore the wrong PE Outfit. And like, that guy's a normal narc was the biggest thing, bro. And people were. And sometimes you'd even find somebody who's got. Yeah. Snitch who got a little card from, like, the local police department that said they were helping them and stuff. Like, every now and then they had, like, this, like. I don't even think it was laminated, bro. That got wet, and it didn't exist. Yeah, but what types of people, like, in towns or actually are the first types of people you would get as informants for. For certain things? Or is that not even a real thing, like. Or like at a high school? I'm just trying to think where.

[Scott Payne]

Like, I would say it depends on what violation you're working.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Scott Payne]

If I'm working gangs and I'm working transnational organized crime, which is what I worked for a long time, well, then maybe I'm going to try to find and develop a source that can give me information on this, like, this car, this whatever. This. This group that's been bringing in drugs that we've heard about. Or what if it's multiple robberies? We're trying to find somebody that knows something about. Have you heard any scatter? I mean, any skeletal butt? Maybe you. Maybe you talk to ladies of the night, some prostitutes, escorts, and say, hey, if you know, you know things like that. But you can also be a highfalutin case. I'm saying highfalutin because look at me, I'm not highfalutin. But it could be like a. An espionage. It could be like a white collar case. And maybe. Maybe the sources for those are very upstanding members of society. And you can go talk to them and say, hey, I was wondering if you could give me some information. They'd be like, I would love to give you some information. Me, I'm talking. When I say developing sources, when I was working, I'm like, I'm talking about going to somebody that you may never would hang out with that you may think is a piece of trash or not. But those people have never liked law enforcement. And I'm talking to that person. And after our conversation, I've heard things. You hear things like, man, for a cop, you know, for a cop, you're not that bad. Or, I didn't know there were cops like you. So you just. It's. It's on you. But, yeah, I mean, that's. That's the way I would do it. And I do think it goes hand in hand. But being if you don't know, in my opinion, if you don't know how to develop and operate sources, I don't think you're probably going to be an awesome undercover.

[Theo]

Did you ever have to pick, like, disguises or was there, like, a war? Like, yeah, did somebody help, like, fit you for a scene? Did they give you a photo or, like a lookbook? Like, hey, here's what you can wear and not wear. Were there, like, was there ever a thing where you couldn't wear a certain patch? Like, if it was like, a. A certain gang affiliation? Of course. Like, how did you manage that? Take me into a little bit of that.

[Scott Payne]

It really comes down to the intelligence of the case team that's bringing you in. Hopefully they've done their due diligence, and as an undercover, you can ask those questions. Now, is there a wardrobe? No, but do we have things in the undercover program where maybe you could get some jewelry and stuff like that? Yeah, we've got that. But as far as, like, wearing the wrong patch or not, that's going to be. Again, ultimately, it's on me as the undercover. Like, if I. But if. If I want to know, if I. If I want to know, like, if I ask for a weapon that doesn't come back to law enforcement, well, I shouldn't just take their word for it. I probably need to run that number in NCIC to make sure it doesn't come back to FBI Quantico, because I've been on cases that. That happened.

[Theo]

Like, what does that mean?

[Scott Payne]

Like, it means, like, so you got serial numbers on your weapons. If they check that in ncic, it's going to come back to something, right? Well, sometimes Bad people have contacts that can run that kind of stuff, whether it's through corruption or whatever.

[Theo]

Oh, I see. So if your weapon has your number on it and they see that and

[Scott Payne]

they run it and it says, oh, this is a Glock 22. FBI Quantico.

[Theo]

Right.

[Scott Payne]

And that's how I was undercover. And I'd requested a fully covert web whatever it's supposed to, working with ATF and everything. And. And I was probably six months in to the undercover, and somehow I was on the call with Quantico and asking how we get the. It was. It's drawn out, but basically the guy's like, whoa. At that point in time, he goes, we really don't have any covert. And I was. I looked. I said, go run this weapon right now to the trainee. And they ran it, said, FBI Quantico. And I'm like. I'm like, bro, I mean, I could have just carried my normal weapon. Yeah, that goes back to Quantico, too. But really, it's on you. But for me, I'll tell you what I have done. If I go in and I meet a source, I'll ask them, like, sometimes my beard's this long and a long hair, which is getting less and less now. I'm going to be thinning out here even more soon, but looks healthy, man. But you go. The thing is, they'll go, I'll ask them, hey, I was on an undercover meet the person. We talked for hours. I'll come back, meet them again. Because I'm trying to figure out, hey, am I the right fit? Is this going to work? Because we're going to be basically undercover day. Yeah, we're basically going to be undercover together. And I'll say, does this work? And they would look and go, nah, man, that's too dirty. We're rednecks, but we're clean cut rednecks. And I said, well, what do you do? I said, how about like a nice goatee? Because I get a normal haircut. They're like, yeah, that'd be perfect, man. Button up, shirt untucked. I'm like, cool. Now I'm just doing that so I don't look like a, like, way out of place. I want to look. I'm mirroring them.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

But for me, I always stuck really close to who I was. I was always Scott. Different last name, but I may or may not have played football in college. I may or may not be a musician and a singer, may or may not be married with kids or for your degree. But you can Bet most likely I ride motorcycles and I lift weights.

[Theo]

Got.

[Scott Payne]

And then you just kind of go from there because my jokes are literally the same. I'm just twisting them because it's real to me.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

I tell the true story.

[Theo]

Have you ever been in an instance where you weren't even the best choice for the role, but you ended up in it?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, absolutely. We call. I mean, you can word it a right case. Wrong. Undercover. Right. Undercover on case. But I had a buddy of mine, and he was running. He's an undercover as well, but he was the case agent, and he was running this undercover on, like, a dirty doctor selling pills or giving pills for sex and stuff like that. The idea was because of my background, to come in and be the closer to get this doctor on drug trafficking. Right, Got it. And I came in and I basically said, I. I'm a competitive power lifter, but I'm getting older, bills are getting tight, and I need something for the pain kind of thing. I was trying to do that because they had already had a bunch of reporting of, like this. This doctor, like, you know, a woman goes in for a visit. She. He prescribes her a bunch of pills or whatever. She leaves, and there's a used condom in the trash can.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

And you're like, okay, all right. And then maybe somebody reports, hey, this doctor tried to do this to me or something like that. So now I'm coming in as a new patient. And I knew a lot of the pill mill stuff because I was working it as a case agent as well. But, yeah, I was just the wrong guy. Like, I did the first meet. And then the second time I came back, he starts telling me, well, you know, Scott, sometimes people come in here and they get these and they go sell them on the street. And I was like, I never said I was going to do that. I said, I'm in pain, man. He's like, what? And I. I left the meeting that day and I went to hand over the recording of the case agent, who's my friend, and I told him, I said, I'm not the right guy, man. You don't need me to send me back in there. I said, I don't know what it is, but he does not like me.

[Theo]

It just went. Can you feel when something doesn't fit?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. Yeah. Because if you. Yeah, you can feel it, especially if you're trying to force it, you know? And I tried a little bit that day with that guy, but he was not something about me. I don't know whether he Thought I was a snitch or a fed or something. Or something. But he didn't. Maybe he didn't feel he could control me, but I was not the right guy for the job.

[Theo]

What are some things, isn't it undercover, just like general rule of thumb that you don't want to do? It's like, do you not want to talk much? Like, is there like, you know, or I guess, is it case by case basis?

[Scott Payne]

I guess, yeah, it depends on. I mean, there's actually attorney general guidelines on what we can and can't do. Like we can't be involved in an act of violence unless it's self defense. You can't like instigate the crime, you know, because I'd be entrapment, you know, I mean instigate and run the crime. And then all of a sudden now you're under arrest.

[Theo]

You know, have there ever been romantic things that happened along the way where it's like, there's almost temptation for that? Like where you met somebody, you're like, well, shit, I'm spending half my day in this environment.

[Scott Payne]

You know, I've been in situations where. Yeah, but you don't do that. You don't do that. I've seen other things where, you know, maybe people fall in love. It's just. Think about it like this. If you've got my luck and I'm doing a deep undercover and I'm at this bar and you start hitting on me and I actually as a single man, and we end up hooking up and dating, my luck, that's going to end up being the target sister or something, you know what I mean?

[Theo]

Is that frowned upon? Can you legally do that though?

[Scott Payne]

No, it'd be a policy violation.

[Theo]

Okay, got it.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, it'd be a, it'd be a policy violation. Now maybe in like if you go Super I spy, I don't know, you know, I don't know all the CIA's rules. I don't know MI5 and MI6's rules, but yeah, that would be. It would just be a bad foundation, period. Even if that person ended up not being. I'd rather you bring in your real wife who isn't also an undercover FBI agent. Yeah, then y' all just be you, you know, if you got that.

[Theo]

Do you think that most of us interact with undercover officers or agents within our lives without even realizing it?

[Scott Payne]

I wouldn't say that. Because literally, like in the biker world, they call it like, you got the one percenter biker clubs. They say that if you're an undercover in law enforcement, you're a 1 percenter. Because there's like 1% of law enforcement that does undercover work.

[Theo]

I see. So you don't think most of us have interacted probably with an undercover agent without realizing it?

[Scott Payne]

You might have based on some of your history.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah.

[Scott Payne]

You know what I mean? Depending on where I'm at, I might have. But, you know.

[Theo]

Yeah. I'm surprised we hadn't met.

[Scott Payne]

I know, right? But if I was at the. If I was at the Oak Ridge Laboratory now, I'm probably not running into an undercover. I don't think. I don't know, maybe you could be. If you're trying to sell, you know, classified material, then yeah, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't walk around like that. Yeah, I don't.

[Theo]

But it's not that common that most of us just regular people have interacted with the undercover agent in our life. You don't think so?

[Scott Payne]

I don't think so.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

I don't think paranoid either. There are some people like, what if everybody in this room is an intelligence officer? I'm like, what if they are right? They're trying to get information. I'm trying to get information. Buy me a drink.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

You know, pay for this steak.

[Theo]

Yeah. What is a one percenter? You hear about that term a lot. And that's a gang motorcycle clubs.

[Scott Payne]

If you are considered a 1%er motorcycle club, let's see, after Vietnam War and everybody should. Well, I don't know about these days. Who knows if they know about Vietnam War. But you. They would come in, soldiers were coming back and they weren't treated very well. And there was no kind of a transition thing, you know, or decompression. And a lot of the motorcycle clubs, I mean, they started back in World War II and stuff like that, but a lot of these motorcycle clubs were forming and they were doing some, you know, rowdy stuff. So the president of the American Motor American Motorcycle Association, I think is what it was called, comes out and does this media blitz to say, hey, 99% of all motorcycle riders are good law abiding citizens. So they took that as a badge of honor and said, we're then with the 1%. We're 1 percenters. And that's a patch on there. On there. Yeah. So it's your. Like, you see 1 percenter, you're going to see the big ones, Hell's Angels, Outlaws, Mongols.

[Theo]

They like to be the. Out. They like to be the. Well, we're not the one. We're the we're the non law abiding. We're doing our own thing. Yeah, I like that.

[Scott Payne]

So am I saying this could be. Yeah, that's the patch right there.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Everybody always asks it, you know, they're like, well, are you saying all one percenter biker clubs are criminals? I go, no, but it kind of goes with being a one percenter. I mean, you know what I mean?

[Theo]

If you're not.

[Scott Payne]

I mean, I'm not saying that means you got to go break the law, but you're definitely not.

[Theo]

It's just saying you got an edge.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. You don't care about the law, basically.

[Theo]

Yeah. You like or you like to. You got some of your own laws as well. Yeah, that's what I think.

[Scott Payne]

A 1%er.

[Theo]

Yeah. This is. It's all interesting, man, because some of these terms I've heard before, and it's nice to just kind of get to like, hear them in the use of the world that they're from. Take me into your experience with the Outlaws, right? That's a biker gang you were involved with where you went undercover.

[Scott Payne]

Yes. That was the longest one. I did two years.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Scott Payne]

I've done, like, if. If I look back at my career, I could be like, yeah, there was a year and a half case. That was a year and a half case. You go where the case takes you a lot of times, or the case ends because something happened. They're like, we're not doing this. Like something. Like somebody got hurt or something. But for the Outlaws, I was already a certified undercover. I had already done. I'd already done several undercovers in the bureau, but I had all the state and local experience, too, and I was already role playing and helping at the undercover school that we have.

[Theo]

And this is in South Carolina.

[Scott Payne]

No, no, no, no. By the time I was doing that, I was living in McAllen, Texas.

[Theo]

Okay, got it.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So when I got. When I got hired out of the FBI or I got hired out of South Carolina for the FBI, when I came out of Quantico, my first office was in New York City, which goes back to the sergeant, which is funny because I did not pick it as number one. It was like 36 out of 56. So when I went back from my Pick up my clothes and have the. After. Have the going away party for Scott, I went up there and I go, dude, you jinxed me, man. I'm like, I got New York City. What is wrong? But I was actually assigned to New York when 911 happened. But the day of, I was undercover I was in Texas, but so now I'm moved down to Texas. I'm in McAllen. I'm a case agent, so I'm still doing that stuff. Firearms.

[Theo]

Okay. Okay. So you're down in McAllen.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. And then as a certified undercover, I can't remember if, if they canvassed through an email or did I get a phone call from somebody. Because once you start going back and role playing and teaching at the undercover school, I mean, the best way to describe it is, let's just say, well, it scared me, man. Something bit me. My phone vibrated. So I, I get a call because you're starting to get known if you're role playing at the school and.

[Theo]

Well, what do you mean at the school? So there's an undercover school to get

[Scott Payne]

certified, just like, just like to become an FBI agent. I mean, it's not five months.

[Theo]

Hold on. So there's an undercover school?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

An academy.

[Scott Payne]

Two weeks. Yeah.

[Theo]

And you learn how to be undercover?

[Scott Payne]

Well, you gotta pass.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Scott Payne]

It's not so much that you're learning, it's just that you're learning techniques and stuff, but, yeah, you got a pass.

[Theo]

And what are some of the techniques you learn there? Sorry, that I didn't, I didn't grasp onto this before. So is it almost acting teachers that are there teaching?

[Scott Payne]

No, no. So won't give away everything for the school, but I'll give away what's kind of out there. The FBI undercover school is considered one of the toughest certification schools the FBI puts on. Some say it is the toughest. I'll say HRT is the toughest because HRT is tier one SWAT on steroids. Is two weeks as well for the trial.

[Theo]

What does it mean?

[Scott Payne]

HRT, Hostage Rescue Team.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Scott Payne]

So you can be SWAT in all your divisions. Like I was SWAT and McAllen, San Antonio Division. I was SWAT in Knoxville. But HRT is at Quantico. Based out of Quantico?

[Theo]

Hell yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Hostage Rescue team. And I mean, they're hot too. They train with the tier one teams. It's high speed, my high speed. You know, helicopters, all that stuff. But that one is also a two week tryout. Very physical and mental a lot of times, at least from what I'm understanding. Yeah, hrt, it's like you just want to get through the two weeks without getting injured.

[Theo]

And you went through it?

[Scott Payne]

No, no, I was going to. If I wouldn't have got out of New York City, I was going to die down to probably around £250. And then because there's a Lot of running and I was going to go try out. Does that mean I would have made it? No. A lot of people don't ever. I don't know if I haven't known anybody that made it their first time.

[Theo]

But.

[Scott Payne]

But the undercover school, it's two weeks. Yeah.

[Theo]

What are some of the course. Like, what do you guys.

[Scott Payne]

So you're going to. The gist is this big on sleep deprivation. No days off that sleep deprivation brings out weaknesses. Right. So you're going to be getting training during the day. I might teach a block on the Outlaws. I might teach a block on white supremacy cases that I've worked. Maybe somebody else is teaching. Maybe it's the legal person. Whatever. You're going to get training during the day and at night, generally, the way it was run when I was in it, at night, you're going to be doing role playing scenarios. You're probably going to get to a night and everybody goes through every scenario. That way there's no liability. In other words, you can't say, hey, that person's background is drugs and you only gave them undercover drug scenarios.

[Theo]

Got it. You know what's like an example scenario you would probably go through?

[Scott Payne]

They probably wouldn't want me to say, that's fair, because it'll give it away.

[Theo]

That's fair.

[Scott Payne]

But we just say this. You're getting tested. You may die, you may die miserably in a scenario, and then you got to turn around and go, all right, buck up, little camper. We're still got one more for the night. You know, bro, if you go over

[Theo]

two in one night, bro.

[Scott Payne]

Oh, yeah, yeah. And then, and I will tell you this, I got certified in O2, 2002. I started role playing in 2003. And I probably only miss a handful of schools in my 23 years of the FBI. And I never knew or heard of a 100% graduation rate. That doesn't mean that it's hazing and none of that stuff. It just means that it's a great certification school and not everybody's cut out for undercover.

[Theo]

Understood. What do you think is the number one thing that blows? Like an officer's cover.

[Scott Payne]

Blowing the COVID Oh, man, there could be, I mean, bad, bad backstopping, bad having a bad legend, you slipping up and not knowing your stuff, like your story or whatever.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

You need to know it. And picture, picture. If you're undercover for two years, I'll meet you on day one. Whatever I say right now, I need to remember two years from now. So that's Why I stuck close to who I was. And as I got older now in early in the game, oh, man, I was making like, I'd be undercover, and I'd be signing my name Scott Payne. And undercover, the P would form and I'd go, I'm Callaway. And I do. But then I'd be home as Scott Payne, and I would sign Scott Calloway. And you're like dad gummy. But lucky for me, I ended up getting better at it. And by the time I was, when I retired, I think I had like eight phones. I had like one FBI, one personal. Everything else was undercover. And I just. I just get so I got so good because I'd be like, I won't say good because it sounds like I'm chest beaten, but it just, it was easier for me to do, like, the phone would ring and I'd see the skull and the color, and I go, okay, that's that case. What's up, brother? How's it going? Blah, blah, you know, that's that case. Yeah.

[Theo]

Dang, man.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

So at one time, you were actively involved in how many cases?

[Scott Payne]

Oh, man. So there are again. I'll say it again. There are men and women out there have done way more than me. But I will say that for my 23 years in the FBI, if you were a full time undercover, like, like you're not doing anything else but undercover, that was pretty rare as an FBI agent because as I said, I was still expected to run cases and. And do whatever back in my office.

[Theo]

But you were working full on full time undercover.

[Scott Payne]

There was. I know I can remember twice. Maybe there was a third time that I was listed full time undercover in the FBI. But all the other times, it might be two weeks undercover, but I go back home and then I'm a case agent again and I've got to run training for everybody and firearms and tactics.

[Theo]

You ever do like chef work? You ever been? Cause I could also see you. I just thought of this, man. I'm thinking of ways I could see you doing undercover. And I'm thinking dessert. Chef.

[Scott Payne]

Chef,

[Theo]

yes. With the head. Because a lot of those guys, you know, they'll have a beard, they'll have some facial hair, they have tattoos because

[Scott Payne]

it's a lot of art. Oh, no. Yeah, I can put the hair net on. It's totally.

[Theo]

Yeah, it's artistic. People that are our kind of chefs, you know what I'm saying? It's like, that's kind of like an artistic style. Yeah, yeah. That frosting pipette you like it?

[Scott Payne]

The pepper, you put.

[Theo]

You want the pepper, you put a set of handcuffs on a nuclear. You know. Yeah. I could see you.

[Scott Payne]

I could see you doing something all law enforcement thief. That's pretty good.

[Theo]

Was there pretty. But. But most of the ones that you did, it was pretty close to who you were though.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. The exception would be when I got called for murder for hire because I'm a jokester. I got a pretty sick sense of humor. I may know not. I usually say this like I might not know a lot, but I know funny. Yeah, that's fair. So sense of humor, jovial. But when I'm doing a murder for hire or what I would call a closer, like if, like if you're somebody wanting to do something bad and you're meeting me and you want a bomb, I call it like a closer. Like I'm providing you with a gun that you want to go shoot up a synagogue or something like that.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

I call that a closer. So those. My jovialness goes away. I never, I mean I wouldn't. There's no point me really building rapport with you because you think I'm a stone cold killer. God, and the stone cold kill, those are usually quicker cases too.

[Theo]

Have there been some murder for hires that you got involved?

[Scott Payne]

Oh yeah.

[Theo]

Really?

[Scott Payne]

A lot.

[Theo]

And who's often trying to kill whom? Is there a commonality there?

[Scott Payne]

Well, I would say it would be spousal. Right. Would probably be the most. But it would be like wife cheating wife and her, the man she's cheating with solicit me to kill the husband because there's like a ninety two thousand dollar life insurance plan.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

I never. The stuff you see in the movies and I mean I've known some of my mentors that have done those hundred thousand dollar payment hits. I'm like, I not in my world, man. It was. Yeah, it was 10 grand. I'll give you 10. Yeah. I'll give you 12 grand after we collect the money. The insurance policy. You're telling me you want me to go kill somebody on your word. Wow. And we know that's not how this works.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

So give me something you know.

[Theo]

And where would they meet? Where does somebody like that usually try to meet you at for the first time? Like is there a general place?

[Scott Payne]

I mean I've met them in hotel rooms. I've met them at their place.

[Theo]

Right.

[Scott Payne]

One of the ones that's in the book I got. They believed we were bikers. I brought in a task force officer. They believe we were 1% or bikers. And they were hiring us to do four home invasions and murder, I think, two or three people. But what they do is they knew where the dope was because the son was running the dope and the money. So he knew of four different drug dealers, and he knew where the cash was at, where the guns were at, where the dope was at, and every house. So the plan was to do four home invasions and then murder two of them, and then I get some money.

[Theo]

I guess that seems like a lot.

[Scott Payne]

And she was. She was a wild one, man. This is later in my career. And like I told you, I would joke around and be like, with headquarters, I'm like, how come I don't get to go to, like, you know, overseas? And how come I don't. How come I don't get to get on big boats, you know? Yeah, I can get on one if I'm cleaning it. You know what I mean? I'm getting the chum out the back, you know?

[Theo]

Yeah. Why don't I get the big.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. What is this? Oh, I get to carry the luggage. That's cool. Yeah. If I'm in a fancy environment, it's because I was muscle for the main person there. That's it.

[Theo]

Amen. Yeah. You need that guy to stand in

[Scott Payne]

the back, you know.

[Theo]

But was there ever. Were you ever in an environment where somebody pulled out a weapon and he was really.

[Scott Payne]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I have been. But let me. Let me tell you about Tammy real quick, though.

[Theo]

Okay? So, yeah, tell me about 10.

[Scott Payne]

So we go for this one case, and it was in Ohio, and this. This late. We think we're. We know we're going to meet the husband, and we thought it was the husband's plan because we've talked to somebody that's talked to them, and then we know that they. They're looking for somebody to do this kind of thing.

[Theo]

You thought it was the husband's plan?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So we go. We go to the garage and, you know, we're. We're talking to the husband, and he's like, well, it's not my plan. It's my old ladies. And I'm like, well, why are we talking to you then? Where. Where's the old lady? She's like, oh, she's sleeping. We're all staring. Awkward silence. You think I should go wake her up? I said, I didn't drive all the way out here to talk to no one. Yeah, we're going to do business. Let's do business. He goes and wakes her up. She hops in the truck in the front passenger seat. They're in the back. She is tweaking. She's clawing herself. Flakes of skin are going everywhere. We're probably inhaling it. You know, it's flying around.

[Theo]

Yeah. Oh, you can cook up a little bit of that skin. You can grill you up a little

[Scott Payne]

bowl of pork rinds. Yeah.

[Theo]

Hit it. Smoke that.

[Scott Payne]

Some pork.

[Theo]

That's a real pork.

[Scott Payne]

So we're driving, and as she's showing us all these spots, she's, like, talking out fast. She's kind of tweaking a little bit. At least that's my opinion. I don't know if she was on

[Theo]

drug and she's hiring to kill the husband.

[Scott Payne]

No, she. It was her idea. She just. She. I mean, the husband's involved, but it was her idea. So she's the one that gets in the car because it's her son that's driving around the dope for these people. Got it. So she's showing us these spots, but why? She shows these spots, she starts talking all this crazy stuff. She's like. She's like, you know, I'm really into torture, so if you need anybody tortured that you bring. If I'm really big into it, and I'm like, okay. Driving. I'm like, all right. And again, it's later in my career. I'm just kind of. I don't know if I'm nonchalant or desensitized or whatever you want to call it, but I'm driving. She says, you know, that you can take. I can get graphic on here, right? Because it's graphic. Okay. So she says in the book, anyway, she says, you know, you can take a hanger and bend it on the end and shove it into the man's penis. Sorry, I hit the microphone. So I said, bend a hanger on the end, shove it into a man's penis, rip it back out, and then pour salt in the wound.

[Theo]

Now.

[Scott Payne]

Now the guys in the back are going, oh, goodness. Oh, man. And I'm like, literally two weeks prior to that, I'd had my second lumbar fusion. The surgery was great and an easy recovery, but they had messed up. I had to get dry cathed. So as she describing that, and I'm like, that's pretty much what I felt two weeks ago.

[Theo]

So it's hitting home with you.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So then she's like. And then you can take. There's another one you can do. You can take a PVC pipe and shove it up somebody's anus run barbed wire up in it and rip their anus from the inside out.

[Theo]

Well, that's insane, right?

[Scott Payne]

And I'm looking at her, and I'm going to. We pull up to the red light, and I lean over and I go, why are you so angry? And she's like, yeah. She said. I think one of the lines. She only. She used it right at the end or later. She said, I've been unlucky in love. Wow. So as we're.

[Theo]

We're talking. Damn. I mean, she's looking at. She's doing, like. It sounds like she's doing side quests from Home Depot or something in Laredo or whatever, like, because that shit's.

[Scott Payne]

I mean, I was undercover in Laredo.

[Theo]

What is she talking about? Dude? She sounds just like a angry ex Lowe's employee or whatever.

[Scott Payne]

So we're driving, and I'm like, are you sure you don't want to kill these people? She goes, no, no. Everybody knows me around here, but if you need somebody tortured, I can torture. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. So we pull up to the next red light, and she says, you know my husband. I told him, never go on a bender again. She said, he was gone for three or four days. Up all the time. I can't think it was cocaine. She said he was using, but went on a cocaine bender. She said he came back. She couldn't find him. He came back. She said he passed out so hard he didn't wake up. You know what she did to him? And he's a skinny man. She said. So I went and got a two by four, and I shoved it under his legs, and I took an industrial stapler and stapled his scrotum to the board.

[Theo]

Oh.

[Scott Payne]

And he didn't even wait. When he woke up from it, he's trying to stand up, but it's stapled to the board behind him, and he's trying to move, and he's screaming for her to take it out. She said, no, he had to call his friend over to do it. We confirmed it with the husband.

[Theo]

No.

[Scott Payne]

Well, I thought, man, she's got to be full of it. He said, no, she did it. And I said, and you're still with her? He said, I ain't never had nobody do nothing like that to me. And I'm like, eat.

[Theo]

It's. Sometimes love is just. It's so. It's violent.

[Scott Payne]

I know. And she's. And so when she said that part, as we're pulling up to stop, because one of The. The task force officer, he was like. He goes, man, remind me never to piss you off. You know, one of those things, you know, and when we pulled up, you know, all that stuff's running through my head, all the scenarios, and when we pull up, I go, you watch a lot of slasher flicks? And she goes, that's all I watch. And I went, now it's making sense. She's talking about humid centipede, like so in a body, into a body. And I'm like, good gravy. I'm like. But in my mind, I'm laughing to myself because I'm going, these are my people.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

This is what my skill set leads me to. You know what I mean? I go back in the backwoods and somebody's talking. Not, not. Not trying to chastise anybody, but they're talking, they don't have any teeth, and their lips aren't moving. I had to revert back to my family, some. Some distant people in my family to go, no, okay, now I know what they're saying.

[Theo]

This where I belong now.

[Scott Payne]

Now I know what they're saying. Because at first I'm like, what? And I'm going, oh, I know what you're saying.

[Theo]

Yeah, that's right.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, I'm translating.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah. Well, you never really lose where you're

[Scott Payne]

from, you know, just start hanging out with them. Hey, I'll get more and more country.

[Theo]

Oh, dude. Yeah, that happened. Happens quick. You go home and you just. And home comes back to you, you know, because it's always been there. Sometimes it's just like it sits. It sits on the sidelines sometimes where it's. It's intermingled with the new places you're at. Was there ever any spaces where you got involved and there was like, like human sat, like any, any type of, like, sacrificial or like ceremonial stuff that kind of went on.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, I. So working domestic terrorism, we started seeing a shift where a lot of the white supremacist groups were claiming to be Odinists. Right. They were claiming to be pagans, but that's not illegal. And I've got some very good friends who are pagans and they are Odinists.

[Theo]

So if Odinists bring that up O

[Scott Payne]

D I N I S T S. Okay, okay.

[Theo]

Odinism is generally a racialist oriented practice that places the highest fundamental view on the figure of Odin. Odinist pagan usually refers to a Norse Germanic pagan who centers their practice on the God Odin. But in modern usage, the term Odinist is heavily entangled with far right Racialist groups in a straightforward religious sense. Odinism is a form of Germanic Norse paganism that honors Odin as a chief deity along with other Norse gods such as Thor, Freyja, Freyja, Freyr and Frigg. Can you give me any better information about it?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, because I'm going to disagree with what that just said because that's what I was getting ready to say. Okay, the pagan part right there, relationship to pagan. That would read that because maybe they're tying the word Odinist to white supremacy. But that was what I was going to say, that true pagans are upset because, you know, Hitler used a lot of Odinism stuff you would see like the Sonnengrad. You would see all the. All the Norse type runes and stuff. But that doesn't mean that they're white supremacists. So maybe you want to do that.

[Theo]

Odinism is a modern neo pagan religion that revives the ancient Norse and Germanic worship of deities like Odin and Thor, emphasizing personal honor, bravery and a connection to nature. While many practitioners view it as a universal nature based faith, specific branches and extremist groups have co opted the movement as a racially exclusive white supremacist ideology. Does that sound.

[Scott Payne]

Yes, that's what I was talking about.

[Theo]

Okay, got it.

[Scott Payne]

So we started seeing a shift back, I guess you can say, because even under the Hitler neo Nazi stuff you would see a lot of Norse runes and Norse mythology and stuff like that.

[Theo]

But what years was this when you were seeing this?

[Scott Payne]

Well, I mean, so the base case that I'm gonna talk about was 2019. We took it down in 2020.

[Theo]

Okay, got it.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. Took it down in Covid year. So you start seeing that. And I've got close friends who are pagans and you look at the Asatra community, they are unhappy.

[Theo]

The Asatra community.

[Scott Payne]

Asatra is pagan. Asatra. Yeah. Asatru.

[Theo]

Asatru.

[Scott Payne]

So they believe in the Norse pantheon. So what you read Thor Freya, you know, Friar Freyr and Frigg. And Frigg. Odin as the Norse. But there's.

[Theo]

Forget about it.

[Scott Payne]

Forget about it.

[Theo]

That's the Italian one.

[Scott Payne]

There's. There's a. There. There are other pan other pantheons where people might be like, oh, I'm an Egyptian pantheon or whatever. But we started seeing this stuff. And if you go and look at pagans like back. Well, I mean you find it in Christianity too. There were sacrifices. Right.

[Theo]

So we have the Bible as sacrifices in it.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, Old Testament. So one of the cases I did. I whistled.

[Theo]

Sorry.

[Scott Payne]

So one of the cases I did was into an accelerationist group. So I go into great detail in the book, but it's like if you ask the average person in America, you know, what do you think a white supremacist is? A lot of them, they may know neo Nazi. They may know like a skin head or they're going to say like kkk, Ku Klux Klan, hoods and robes and stuff. That's not what this is. These are accelerationist and they don't believe that there's a political solution to save the white race. They believe that society is going to collapse either on its own or from mad made of man made events. And they want to speed that up. They want to speed it up through guerrilla warfare tactics. Like just small hits. Just picture like. Like power grid goes down over here, water systems poisoned over here, train derailed over here. Anything to create chaos.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

I'm not saying it's the best game plan in the world and it may be hard to wrap your mind around, but we. They came onto our radar from being online and recruiting and so they were recruiting online. And a lot of your accelerations also groups were big on what we call flyering or stickering or postering. So you'll put up a flyer and it'll be like save your race. Join the base. You know, survivalist group. There you go. And see that QR code. So you'd scan that QR code and it takes you right to bit shoot. And there's a recruitment video right there. And that's my picture right there. I mean that, that. Those are Bibles being burnt right there in that fire.

[Theo]

They are, yeah.

[Scott Payne]

If you blow it up, you'll see Holy Bible on that picture.

[Theo]

You can dim it down. I don't even want to see that. But I believe that it's happening and so. And who's the people on the left is this. That's a Christmas thing they do on the levee over there in Lafayette. Is it?

[Scott Payne]

No, that'd be a 20 to 30 foot cross on fire with diesel fuel.

[Theo]

Understand it?

[Scott Payne]

And I know there's a lot of history in the Ku Klux Klan.

[Theo]

Wonder if we should have someone on some. I'm just to learn even about it. There's Matt Damon. Obviously he was involved. Sorry, Matt.

[Scott Payne]

That's clean cut. That's clean cut. Scott Payne.

[Theo]

Is it really?

[Scott Payne]

That's a Polaroid picture. Yeah, bro.

[Theo]

Oh my God. I just realized.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, that's not bro. Dang. I do look like Matt Damon right there.

[Theo]

Bro. You look like Matt Damon right now.

[Scott Payne]

No way.

[Theo]

I'm not even joking. Bring up. People must tell you this all the time.

[Scott Payne]

No, I used to get confused for Toby Keith all the time.

[Theo]

No, B. Keith. Dude, you look like Matt Damon. Dude, that's crazy.

[Scott Payne]

That picture does actually look like Matt Damon. I didn't ever realize that Matt.

[Theo]

Matt Damon's gonna play you in your life story one day. That'd be pretty wild. Okay, so you're infiltrate. So you. So you get into this group with a base and. And yeah, so. Yeah. How do things escalate and what are you learning once you get in? And you were telling me that for. I interrupted you. Go on.

[Scott Payne]

So I'm going in to where they're posting because they're trying to recruit and it would be like, you know, if you're interested, contact us at the base. [e-mail]. got it again. Proton mail. Thinking that it's fully increased scripted. I think that was based out of Russia. I'm not sure. I can't remember right now, but. So I. I start liking some of their stuff. They start responding back and then I start emailing. So I go through like a week to a week and a half of emailed questions. Pretty thorough. What can you bring to the table? This, that, and the other. And then I'm instructed to. I mean, my height, weight, ethnicity, all that stuff. And then it says, if you want to read that. Oh, Geneva, Switzerland. All right. Proton mills in Switzerland.

[Theo]

Okay, go on.

[Scott Payne]

All right, thank you. So then I'm instructed to download the applicant. The wire app. It's called wire, operates a lot like WhatsApp. So I'm told to download it, reach out. And then on a Friday afternoon In July of 2019, I did like an hour and 15 minute panel interview. I couldn't see them, but I could hear like good four to five voices really.

[Theo]

And it was. It. Were you guys on. Standing on two sides of a fence or something or what was going on?

[Scott Payne]

I was just on the app.

[Theo]

I was online.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So I'm. I'm just listening to them and they're asking questions. And like I said, I don't know if they're gonna tell me to cut my phone on show myself. And so I was in a club

[Theo]

picturing some damn home improvement type shit. But you're standing over the fence.

[Scott Payne]

I jumped in my truck and drove to a abandoned parking lot. And I was making sure I had anything. I cleaned it, make sure there's nothing in there that says Scott Payne or anything.

[Theo]

See anything is.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Know where you're at.

[Scott Payne]

Just an old truck, you know. So I did that interview and there was a lot of stuff because the accelerationists, they. Their. Their Bible is. Their bible is basically a book called Siege. That book, Siege, was written by James Mason. He's a longtime white supremacist. He created Adam Waffen, another accelerationist group, but it's essentially a bunch of interviews. But he idolizes, like, there's a lot of Satanism in there. He idolizes Charles Manson, things like that, but there's a lot of that. For instance, Accelerationist. Let me say this so Accelerationist, you know, you've seen the white supremacists that are out on the streets with picket signs and yelling during pride rallies or whatever. That's not accelerationist, per the siege method. Number one, that makes you a target. Number two, lets everybody know who you are.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

Number three, it does nothing for the cause is what they're saying. So we're going to do those guerrilla warfare hits.

[Theo]

Okay?

[Scott Payne]

That kind of thing.

[Theo]

Bring it up again. See, just want to see that real quick and cite it. Siege. Siege, the Collective Writings of James Mason, an anthology of essays by the neo Nazi James Mason. After growing disillusioned with the mass movement approach of neo Nazi movements, Mason began advocating for white revolution through terrorism. Though the book was reviewed in several periodicals upon its release and was praised and distributed by the influential white supremacist Tom Metzger, most neo Nazis at the time either ignored or criticized the book. In the 2010s, the book found a new audience among online younger neo Nazis due to the book's republican republication by the neo fascist forum Iron March. In addition to its promotion of neo Nazism, it lionizes serial killers, mass murderers, and Charles Manson. Siege advocates neo Nazi lone wolf terrorism.

[Scott Payne]

Yep. So let me go off of that. Okay, so the base, I'll do that interview. They asked me all kinds of stuff. I answer best I can. Again, tennis. Right. I don't know what they're throwing at me. I'm just going to be ready. Right. And then he tells me, I could tell who the leader is on there because it's the deeper voice, but it was Ronaldo Nazara. After they've explained to me what acceleration this is, what the base believes siege culture. They gave me a 24 hour rest period and they said, because now I know what they're about, I can decide whether I really want to be a part of it and they can talk about whether they want me to be a part of it.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

And true to the word, 24 hours later, on the Saturday, I got hit ping something to the effect of, we'd like to have you in the organization. And I said, I'd be honored. So they tell me. They go, where are you at? I said, east Tennessee. And they said, well, the closest cell. C E L L. Because I know I got a country accent. C E L, L. The closest cell to me was in North Georgia. And then I was contacted by the cell leader. But to parlay off of what that said, terrorism, siege, he said, forget all this grandstanding, go more terrorism, lone wolf attacks. So a lot of people don't know this. Al Qaeda translated to English is the base. Al Qaeda's MO was three to five man sales all over the world training for D day, waiting for the phone call. The basis MO, 3 to 5 man sales, all over the world, training for that. What they call the boogaloo, if they're still calling it that. I've been retired for five years, so.

[Theo]

And when you met them, are these guys. Are they aggressive, like males? What kind of energy did you feel overall when you met these guys?

[Scott Payne]

It depends. But it wasn't like back in the Hammer skin, white supremacy, heavy metal, mosh pit crowd. But I don't want to get too much on a tangent, but I will say this. When I'm instructing, number one, we don't like to say the names of the mass shooters. We don't want to give them any credit.

[Theo]

Amen.

[Scott Payne]

You know, I'll name every victim from Caliban.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

I'll name every victim from Charleston, every victim from Buffalo. Don't want to say the kid's name or the. Or the shooter's name. Right. But sometimes when I'm teaching undercover, I have to, because we're talking about a certain thing. But what I'll say to people, because it sounded like you were like, hey, were these like Jack dudes or whatever, all shapes and sizes. But what I'll tell people is I said, don't underestimate. If I showed you a picture of the kids from Columbine before Columbine happened, what would you say If I showed you a picture of the kid from the Aurora theater shooting, orange and yellowish hair, what would you say before that happened, Charleston, bow haircut, skinny kid. But they still killed a lot of people, right? So don't underestimate, because dead is dead.

[Theo]

Amen.

[Scott Payne]

We had a shooting here in Nashville. Yeah, My buddy, I'm buddies with the guy that had the pistol, the two shooters, I met him through some other trainings, and I just seen him like within a month of that shooting. And you know, just don't underestimate, you know. So I meet him and when I'm.

[Theo]

They call me and would you wear to meet him? Do you have to. I mean, how do you even pick out an outfit?

[Scott Payne]

Like maybe like some hiking type pants, you know, I didn't show up all bikers, but I go to meet them and they tell me, they instruct me, you come to Rome, Georgia, I want you to park here, I want you to take a picture of the statue downtown and then I want you to send it to me. And they're watching, I don't know how many because at that point we knew we were going to meet somebody who called themselves tmb. I didn't know he's bringing a guy named Pestilence with him. I didn't know. We just. They're trying to cover me. And I met the case team that even though we talked on the phone, I'd never met him before. So I drive down to Rome, Georgia because now I'm being.

[Theo]

This is crazy.

[Scott Payne]

I know. Because now I'm being. Now I'm being invited to meet them for a face to face vet. I like the vetting in real life because I passed the other one. I passed the, I passed the emails, I passed the interview panel. Now I got to pass a face to face meeting. And when I met the case team, again, we don't know really who we're meeting or where we're going. We got an inkling, I think, but I know we didn't know everybody in the group. We did. Not at all. And the weather was bad. So it's like, I don't know. Can you get any kind of aerial surveillance? Not when it's, not when it's raining and stuff like that.

[Theo]

And it's sort of light across in the rain too. So you're not really going to see.

[Scott Payne]

Well, the okay accelerations don't do the cross.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

My bad lightings. The KKK does.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

So these guys are hiding. They're all wearing flecked on camo because the flecked on pattern is German. They're neo Nazis, so they wear nothing but the German pattern. That does not mean if you have flecked on that you're white supremacist. No, it just means that that's what they wear.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

So I pull up meet the case team and they're like, hey, they want to slap a GPS tracker onto my truck just in case. And I'm like, yeah.

[Theo]

So I said Your squad says that?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, yeah. So my team, my cover team. And because, let me explain it this way. I was assigned to Knoxville, so I'm a. I'm an FBI agent in Knoxville. Yeah, but because the targets lived in Georgia.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Well, now you got Atlanta field office and the Rome ra, which is the satellite office out of. So that's who's going to be working that, those targets.

[Theo]

Right.

[Scott Payne]

So I go down there to meet that cover team or case team, and we talk about some stuff. I'll make some phone calls. And I see them kind of go under the back driver's side quarter panel. So I don't know where they put it, but I know it's somewhere up in there. I pull up, I can't find a parking spot. I'm going back and forth on wire. Hey man, I'm here. Okay, look, I found a spot, but it's behind a car coffee shop I'm in. I think I was in a white Ford or something. I can't remember what truck I was driving on that trip. But give them the description of the truck and then they go, okay, I see and I see him come walking. So what comes walking up is about a 21 year old and soon to be 21 and a 19 year old kid. TMB is Luke Lang, he's about 6 to maybe 222, 25, but kind of frumpy. And then Pestilence is Jacob and he is kind of more not goth but more like black metal. But he's got BDU's bloused into his 8 inch tactical boots and then a tank top of some black metal band, you know, shaved around the sides.

[Theo]

Probably guar one of those Instant Pussy.

[Scott Payne]

One of those ones. I went, no, I'm talking like we're going to talk like probably like Hell Witch Sabat, Satanic Goat Ritual, those kind

[Theo]

of bands, you know, that kind of shit.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, yeah. And all it is, if you've ever been to a concert like that, it's like it's just constant

[Theo]

Home Depot noise.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, it's like what I've seen played when they're trying to break people at Guantanamo Bay. That's what they're playing about it. Yeah, with flashing lights and stuff. Or like the Accountant, like the Account, you know, like Ben Affleck when he's in there, cuts it on. Yeah. So they come walking up and you know it's first meet. So clearly I'm clean because I don't know what they're going to. I mean if they're doing their. Wherewithal they're going to check me, Right?

[Theo]

How many times in your head do you go over, okay, is there nothing? Like, am I missing anything?

[Scott Payne]

Like that would have a lot in, like, I'll self check. I may even have somebody check me for sure. I might. I may clean my truck. But I mean, hey, search my truck.

[Theo]

Is there anything on here that would let you know?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, I mean, what if you just got dry cleaning and then you're in your tags in there, you know?

[Theo]

Oh, yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Or prescription medicine and it's in your real name, you know.

[Theo]

So they're walking up there. You guys are behind the coffee shop.

[Scott Payne]

Yep. And he comes up and he says, he, you know, I'm like, hey, I came in as White Warrior 88. I'm like, hey, I'm. I'm White Warriors. Like, I'm TMB. It's best. I mean, cool little niceties. And then I need you to put your phone in airplane mode. I said, okay, put it on airplane mode. And he pulls out this thing. It looks like the Geiger counter man had like a triangle card on it. It was big. All kinds of lights and stuff on it. I'm like, what the heck is that? So he wants me. Nothing. I'm cool. He starts wanting the inside of the truck. And I'm like, all right. As he's walking down the side of the truck, that thing starts going nuts. It's getting louder and louder and lights are going off on it. And I'm like, oh, no. It's picking up the GPS tracker and he's walking. He gets right to the back fender. And I'm like, I've already eased my right leg back. I'm starting to get in that stance because I'm like, it's getting ready to go. I'm. I'm just. Who knows what's going to happen right now.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

I don't know if they're armed or not. I'm going to assume they are. And right when it was, it was going. It's going nuts. Pestilence says, you think it could be the power lines? Because where we were was a steep hill. There were power lines right there. So he walks over and it. That thing goes nuts. What I found out is that thing picks up. It's a 500 piece of equipment in 2019. 500 piece of equipment that picks up everything. Every airwave there is wi fi, Bluetooth, rf, whatever. And it'll color. It'll color code and different sounds. Yeah.

[Theo]

Somebody whispering loud.

[Scott Payne]

Cellular. Yeah, whatever. Yeah. So I live to fight Another he said, he said, hey, follow us to another place. So at that point, I'm calling the case team and I'm like, you need to shut the tracker off. I'm like, you need to shut it off. And they're like, well, we're not sure if we can shut it off remotely. And I'm like, well, you need to try. And they're like, well, if we shut it off, we don't know if we can get it back on. I said, what I'm telling you is whatever he's got, shut it off is finding it. And if you don't shut it off, it's going to be a quick undercover

[Theo]

and it should be your choice.

[Scott Payne]

Well, I mean, they were saying technically, like, they were saying, can you cut it off from a remote? And if you did, could we get it back on? And I'm getting concerned. You don't want to lose me. But I'm like, hey, so luckily I

[Theo]

don't want to lose me.

[Scott Payne]

I know, right? Luckily they got it off. And I pulled into the parking lot of an abandoned concrete plant and I'm like pulling. And I'm like looking up to the Lord. I'm like, that's funny. How many people have I seen die in a movie at an empty concrete plant? But they wanted me and it didn't go. They wanted the truck and it didn't go off. And I'm like. So then I go. And that's when I started meeting everybody. And then as the months went on, you would go and train.

[Theo]

We never played ball together or anything or what. Like, would you guys do any social excursions, field trips or anything like that?

[Scott Payne]

All shooting, all training.

[Theo]

Really?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, because. Because Luke's dad had a hundred acre property in Rome, Georgia got it. And that's where we did a lot of our training, that sale. And the Maryland cell would come down and train. And then at one point we started finding all kinds of things like, like you talked about sacrifice. That's what gets me into it. So I'll speed up to that. During. During the case, you start identifying more and more people. And those people are. Some of them are outside of the United States. So our world working partners are opening cases on them. Some of them are in all kinds of states in the U.S. but as I explained before, that means that maybe Seattle is. FBI is opening a case on the person that's in their aor. Maybe Detroit's opening cases, Georgia's open in multiple cases, Alabama's opening. It just goes. Because at any given time, there was a good 50 something people in the base. But the base was more like an umbrella group because every member that I knew that was in the base, they were also a part of another white supremacy group, whether it be Adam Waffen or Green Brigade or, or man, was it Sonnen? I can't remember the name of it right now, but. So you were a member of another group as well? But we did train us and that first weekend. And remember, I'm a firearms instructor certified at the FBI. I was the lead tactical instructor for my division. And a 19 year old kid led carbine and it led, led shooting and tactics. He led the training and it was good, it wasn't bad. And I'm thinking, man, how did you learn? Did you. I mean, you're not, you didn't run the military. You're too young to be in and out to learn this. He said, no, it was, I think it was mainly gaming. And then his dad took him to a range, but he worked on it, you know, And I was glad that they were safe with their weapons because I didn't know who, you know, what they're shooting was. I was standing back when we started. I was glad that they were good and safe, but I was also scared because if they were planning on doing something bad, they were pretty good.

[Theo]

I'd be spooked, man.

[Scott Payne]

So one of the big things, like with undercover, you go in there, you've got enough to go in. It's all been approved. There's a. We've got the reporting and people are predicated, so we're going in. But do you have enough to charge them? Well, in instances like this, you've been spewing a lot of hate online. You've been saying a lot of crazy stuff, but is what you're doing just First Amendment protected or are you actually planning on doing something bad? So sometimes we go in and you might just be in there for six months trying to figure out if they're doing. I've been in cases for five, six months and I come back to the team and go, they're not doing anything illegal, man. Man, it's all First Amendment protected. And we're just spinning our wheels at this point, you know.

[Theo]

And when did that turn for the base? When did that kind of.

[Scott Payne]

So I got. We were already talking about a bunch of stuff and I was starting to get the DM conversations going on where it's more private direct messaging for those that don't know.

[Theo]

And what did your wife thinking when you get home on the weekends and shit and you got like a lot more white laundry or whatever.

[Scott Payne]

No dark stuff.

[Theo]

Like a.

[Scott Payne]

Or I come home smelling like diesel fuel from the. For the Ku Klux Klan. They call it clan cologne because you can't stand that cross up without the diesel fuel pouring all over you. Unless somebody was holding an umbrella every. I guess.

[Theo]

Yeah, but. Okay, so take us back in.

[Scott Payne]

So at one point there's a. There's somebody that gets doxed. And. And for those that don't know what, doxing is basically outing you. Right. And the far left is very, very good at it. They're really good at doxing. You showing up to protest at your kids, school, at your business, at your home, your parents, whatever. And the right, far right, from what I experienced, can't stand that because they feel like they're losing their life and their identity. That's why they're huge on anonymity. So all these pictures, you see if you pull up the base stuff where the BBC and the Guardian was blasting all this stuff, I mean, I'm there, but we're wearing balaclavas. That one, right? I'll show you one. That was me. Yeah, that's me right there. I'm on the far right.

[Theo]

You're in that group photo.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

And who took the pictures? Did you guys go to a place?

[Scott Payne]

No, no, no, just one of the guy. One of the guys that didn't suit up because you're always trying to recruit.

[Theo]

How was recruiting going overall?

[Scott Payne]

Did you feel like, I mean, ebbs and flows. You get people coming in and then you vet them. And then. And then some people might drop, some people might get doxed. So.

[Theo]

So any women in it?

[Scott Payne]

No, no. Which was something I kind of. There was a lot of. There was a lot of the guys that did not have partners.

[Theo]

Oh, you'd have more men in it if you had more women in it.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. What? They don't have partners. So think about this. You were talking earlier about radicalization online picture for these cases. I'm just gonna say it's a young white guy, young white man who's probably an outcast. He's most definitely been bullied. Can't get a date, and they're just hating. So then you go on in these groups at night. And this works on the other side too. Far left. Black separatist, radical jihad, kind of same thing. You're looking for somebody that's like minded, individual.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

And that's how they start getting you.

[Theo]

Do you think that the media ostracizes white people? Do you feel like, it's.

[Scott Payne]

Does it, Boy, I'm not answering that.

[Theo]

Is that a tougher question? Is that a bad.

[Scott Payne]

No? That should probably give you my answer.

[Theo]

There you go.

[Scott Payne]

No, it depends.

[Theo]

I don't. Look, you don't have to. I was just thinking about it, like, you know, I feel like there's a lot of, like. I don't know. It's a tough one. It's a tough question.

[Scott Payne]

I mean, I'm white, so what am I supposed to say? I mean, it's a good point. Am I privileged? Am I not privileged? Did I get stuff for free or did I have to bust my ass to get it? So I don't. I just try not to answer that.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

I mean, I know personally what I've had to do to be where I'm at.

[Theo]

Yeah, that's a good point, man.

[Scott Payne]

Somebody else might not believe that.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

And it's in the eye of the beholder. No matter what I say, I can talk till I'm blue in the face. If you don't believe me, then that's it.

[Theo]

Yeah. We'll think about it another time.

[Scott Payne]

But picture you're in there, you're lonely, and you're looking for. Do you want to belong? You want to belong? It's human nature to want to belong.

[Theo]

Yeah. And want to feel a part of something, to feel like, brotherhood.

[Scott Payne]

Same thing. Same thing with gangs. Same things with Colts biker clubs. It's my brotherhood. Your brother, you know, you're. Now. You're. Now you're one of us.

[Theo]

Oh, dude. There was not, like, when you were growing up, just having your friend. It's like going to the gym with a friend to go lift with. Anything that gives you some connection becomes a huge part of your life.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So you get that. And I'm glad you said that, because another way to describe what I was describing is isolation.

[Theo]

Yeah. Oh, it's. That's.

[Scott Payne]

And if you're a believer when you get isolated, let's look at the jungle, Africa. If you're a zebra that gets isolated, you're a lot easier to pick off.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

You know what I mean?

[Theo]

Just say undeniably, isolation is for the devil, man. Yeah, I believe that.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

You know, it's like, even though. Like, there's things. Even in my own life, it's like, man, I don't want to go. I don't want to do that. That is the. That is not the best parts of me. Talking or communicating to me.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, I'm with you on that.

[Theo]

Anyway, carry on.

[Scott Payne]

So this guy, a Guy gets doxed. He's a member in South Africa and he gets doxed. And then at that point, one of the members in the base is like, how many of our brothers do we have to watch fall before we do something, something? And he called for operational Chris Operation Crystal Knot, which was an actual operation in World War II. Essentially what they did is if you were not white, you were Jewish, you know, anti fascist, whatever, they would go down and smash your windows of your business, slice the tires on your car, set stuff on fire. So that's what he was calling for. And some members did do it. They went out and tagged some synagogues with some, you know, hate symbols. I'm trying to remember if anybody set anything on fire or not. I remember being called for slashing tires. But so now we're starting to get a little bit more. People are actually doing overt acts and furtherance of hate. Right. Even though, even though it's just painting and I mean, but you know, like I've had some people say, hey man, I mean, they just painted a synagogue, you know, I mean, to be looking at this many years for, for a hate crime or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, but what if you were one of those Jewish people that went to that synagogue? And now you, every time you go there, you're scared to death because you've seen active shooter, you've seen mass shooter events, Tree of Life in Pittsburgh, you know, and I know a lot of those people now because I've helped out with Eradicate Hate and Eradicate Hates based out of Pittsburgh and I've actually met and I'm friends with family members of the people that were murdered at Tree of Life.

[Theo]

So yeah, my friend Michael the other day was talking about the shooting that had happened in Australia.

[Scott Payne]

New Zealand.

[Theo]

No, I think it was in Bondi.

[Scott Payne]

Okay. I was thinking of the New Zealand. Christchurch.

[Theo]

No, I think it was in Bondi Beach.

[Scott Payne]

Oh, there we go.

[Theo]

Yeah. This was in December.

[Scott Payne]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's sad to say that these shootings happen more and more often and I just. They start blending in my head.

[Theo]

Which shootings? You mean just overall?

[Scott Payne]

I mean, just like active shooter events.

[Theo]

Yeah, yeah, I do remember that.

[Scott Payne]

That was the Sikh temple or something they shot up.

[Theo]

You'd feel like people, I don't know, evil's always going to be around, you know.

[Scott Payne]

Well, you know, a lot of interviews,

[Theo]

a lot of this, of new age stuff, like, say a lot of, like if there's anti Semitic, if it's, you A specific hate. Do you think a lot of that is coming from like people who have.

[Scott Payne]

Or.

[Theo]

Or do you know, actually if a lot of it's coming from like people who have Nazi ideology, from like, like Hitler Nazi ideology, or is it people that are having reactions to some of Israel's tactics and like their government's tactics?

[Scott Payne]

It's going to be both. Because if you're pro. If I got to figure out, I want to word it right, because I don't want anybody to say you're saying all pro Palestine people or. No, but if you're on that, that extreme side that's pro Palestine over Israel. Well, a lot of those people aren't white, so you couldn't be identifying with Hitler because Hitler's more of the white supremacy. But it's definitely anti Semitic.

[Theo]

Wait, wait, hold on a second.

[Scott Payne]

They're hating the Jews too.

[Theo]

Do you think that's an extremist view that people are pro Palestine?

[Scott Payne]

No.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

No, not at all. But if you are going to go again, if you're going to go to extreme or you're going to be happy that people are being slaughtered and murdered and raped and tortured, you know, and you're anti Semitic, then you're more. Probably more that extremism side.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

But you were asking me if it was like, is it Hitler driven or is it pro Palestine? Anti Israel driven?

[Theo]

Yeah. Anti Israel government driven, like. Yeah. So just to be super clear. Yeah, man. I think it's just scary. Like, I have Jewish friends that have been like, who have spoken out about like, just like being in fear and like they're like going to class, you

[Scott Payne]

know, and I'm like, I don't. I mean, Hitler wasn't even solid white. I think he. I mean, you can pull it up. I think he. It was determined that he had some Jewish in his blood.

[Theo]

And then there's probably other ethnicities who are scared of our relationship with Israel and what could happen to them in the future. I get scared sometimes. I think with the surveillance state now, I feel like everybody's getting scared. Oh my God.

[Scott Payne]

I know. And now the big, the big. I think the fresh topic right now on surveillance is those flock cameras. Yeah, it's like a lot of my

[Theo]

black friends are starting to. Are starting to them up.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, I'm not hating on that. I'm not saying do it either.

[Theo]

I'm just saying that the block verse

[Scott Payne]

flock, you know what I'm saying?

[Theo]

That's where I'm at.

[Scott Payne]

You see a flock camera on a cul de Sac. One cul de sac. Why do you need a flock camera?

[Theo]

I agree.

[Scott Payne]

Where you are you reading plates or does it pick up phone stuff? And it's the third party. Here's my concern. Third party company. That's not law enforcement.

[Theo]

I agree. What are we doing?

[Scott Payne]

So what oversight do you have? Do you have policies stopping? I mean, we've got a constitution. That is our. That's our law. That's our bible. If you. Which it goes back to, you know, you're talking about the border and stuff. Listen, if I'm a law enforcement officer, number one, I'm a peace officer.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Most of the cars used to say, to protect and serve. That's your job. You're a shepherd. You should be. You're protecting the sheep.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

From the wolves. That's. I mean, I'm not trying to be all, you know, Jack Nicholson on the wall and be holier than now. It's just my job is to enforce the law. So I used to tell people, I'm like, well, don't hate me because I'm enforcing law. There's been so many people I've arrested or sat down at a table with after they've been arrested. And I'll say, man, you know, I'm not saying I disagree with what you did. I'm not saying I think you're a bad person. I'm saying you're an adult and you made the choice to break the law and you got caught. So here we are. I'm not hating.

[Theo]

Did you ever get so deep entangled during. Like a. During like a sting or during an operation or during an undercover, where at the end you were like, damn, this is gonna be a long day when this bust happens.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. Because it's gonna bother you.

[Theo]

Yeah, sorry. And I'm kind of taking us off. Off a base or. I'm kind of taking us. Yeah. Off a base a little bit. Let's get back. So there was the doxing going on. Yep.

[Scott Payne]

So they did some people tag some stuff. And also during that time, we had a base member who went out in Canada. He was Canadian, and he went and put flyers up to try to recruit. And then somebody answered the recruitment. They had to go through the emails like I did. They had to go through a interview panel like I did, on audio, on wire. And then they went and had the face to face meet. So this guy that got recruited, one of our members who ended up being called Punished Snake, his name is Pat Matthews.

[Theo]

Punished Snake, Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

So Pat Matthews, he changed his name several times, but he was. I think it's the Canadian version of our National Guard, kind of. But he was being trained. He was a military. He's being trained and he's the guy. So we get a new member coming in. Hey, welcome, new member, blah, blah, blah. From Canada. Think his name was Mark or something. And he's in the. He's in the main chat group for about a week, maybe two weeks, I don't think. Definitely. I don't think it was more than two weeks.

[Theo]

And are you in the chat group every day?

[Scott Payne]

Kind of, yeah. Imagine if I wasn't. So I work my job as an FBI agent. I go home, I might have dinner with my family, and then I'm back out on the porch, you know, answering stuff, or I'm checking in during the day.

[Theo]

Right.

[Scott Payne]

But they also knew I was a.

[Theo]

What's up, fellas? Everybody's still racist or whatever like that.

[Scott Payne]

Commit some hate crimes. But. So this Canadian, he meets this guy, this guy gets into the group and after about a week or so, he comes out and it turns out that it was a journalist for a paper.

[Theo]

Gay?

[Scott Payne]

No, no, he's a. I guess these days that's probably what the people are thinking. He was a journalist for a newspaper up there. He went and met Pat on his own, and after about a week or two, they were like, hey, this is too deep. You pull the chalks. So this article comes out and it's basically doxing Pat. So Pat, they come, the RMs, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, RCMP comes to his house, takes his guns. He's booted from the military thing. His parents now hate him. I think he lost his job, and all of a sudden he disappears.

[Theo]

Wow.

[Scott Payne]

His truck is found at the border, the border of Canada and the United States. So we're pretty sure he's here, but we don't know where.

[Theo]

Right.

[Scott Payne]

Eventually we find him. And he ended up being down at my cell. He was. He was renting out one of the horse stalls, under the barn, under the residence on that 100 acre property. So I got to go.

[Theo]

Sleeping there?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So I got to go spend a lot of time down there training. And it just got crazier and crazier, man. It was like.

[Theo]

And what kind of stuff were they saying or like.

[Scott Payne]

Like how everything's preparing for the. Preparing for the boogaloo, building your kit. I mean, a lot of these kids didn't even have. I say kids. I mean, I. I was 48. I lied and said I was 44 at the time because literally there was like one other 40 something. I, I think Nazara was 40 something. So the leader was 40 something. There was one other dude that was in his 40s. There might have been two 30 somethings and everything else was 20s and teens.

[Theo]

Wow.

[Scott Payne]

A lot of these, these kids, they didn't have a job, they didn't have a car. They had to borrow a car to come to the training. But they were wearing cry precision plate carriers. Same thing the FBI SWAT team wears.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

They were, they're building their kit up, their pistols, their, their, their semi automatic rifles, their ARs or their AKs and, and we're coming out and training, man, moving drills and you know, may not be the best, but still, I mean I was looking at a lot of them going, holy crap, man. If they wanted to take on some, if they wanted to do something, they, they're probably gonna get the drop on a lot of people.

[Theo]

Right?

[Scott Payne]

You know, so scary, dude.

[Theo]

It's so, it's fascinating to think that that goes on.

[Scott Payne]

So once we found Pat and we had him locked down, so we're like, okay, we feel like we're in control of the situation because we were finding out more and more stuff. Are they plotting something or they're not. There was inklings of things being whispered and said. And we're as a case team and an undercover, all the case teams. I mean at one point we had a hundred people on a call once a month. That's how many case teams there were in the United States working this stuff. And it was just kind of like, did they mean that? Did they not mean that? You're trying to find out are you going to do something bad or are you not?

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Are you just talking trash? First amendment protected. And then you're going, you're waiting for the D Day and then it's purge, you know. So we get this all started because you asked about the sacrifice thing. So a lot of these guys believed in the north Norse, Norse pantheon. So they were claiming pagan. But they're white supremacists. They're not true pagans.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

They're white supremacists. And we've already had a couple of blots. Blot. That is the ceremony, the worship ceremony.

[Theo]

Did you ever go to those?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'd already been cool. Well, I mean I had to participate. I had to mirror so I would pray to a God. There were some that we had that had some people leading it that was really. They were, some of them were actually priests in the Asatru.

[Theo]

Family just doing what, side jobs or whatever?

[Scott Payne]

No, no, no, no. I'm just mean they've. They've obtained the rank to basically be a preacher. They are. They're a priest and they can run a block. So I'd attended some and it might be in the middle of the summer and you go down there and you paint runes on your chest and we do the whole ceremony and they'd be like a. Take like a piece of wood and carve. Carve some runes in it which were

[Theo]

pagan R U N E s. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott Payne]

And then it would be then. But then there would be like swastikas and white supremacy stuff on there too. And then you would cut yourself and bleed on the wood. And then we set the wood on fire and pray to our gods until the wood stop burning. So I was getting in closer.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

And then. And then it was just going so fast. Theo, I'll tell you how you ever

[Theo]

wake up believing it.

[Scott Payne]

No, no, not this. No. I mean, some of these cats were. Cats. Some of these guys were saying that Hitler's still alive in Hollywood and he's hanging out with 15 foot giant white dudes with red beards and they're just waiting to come back. And I'm like, for what?

[Theo]

Yeah, that's crazy.

[Scott Payne]

I mean, come on back. If you're saying we need to fight right now, what are they? What's Hitler waiting?

[Theo]

Where they milling around?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, come on. You know.

[Theo]

Yeah. Unless he's waiting for nil money or whatever.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, exactly. I'm switching teams.

[Theo]

Somebody give him a deal. Probably.

[Scott Payne]

But so we get to this point and It's Halloween of 2019, and we're going to have a. Basically what people refer to as a hate camp. We're going to be there training and training. I did some hand to hand combat training there. We already started doing firearms. But that. That Halloween night was a Thursday night and in 2019. So we have a few drinks. I go back to my. I go back to my truck. I'm actually charging my phone up because the battery's dying. You know how it is when you go from like sleet, ice, freezing cold, and you hop in that warm vehicle and you kind of just defrost and then you nod off a little bit. I nodded off a little bit. And I wake up to the pounding on my door because I was already Pale Horse by this time. I switched my code name and. And they were like, pale Horse, Pale Horse, wake up, wake up. I'm like, wait, what's going on? They're like, you got to see this. You're not going to believe it. I come out and they go, hey, remember us talking about sacrificing a goat? And I'm like, vaguely. And they're like, we got one. And I'm like, oh. They went. I mean, not far down the road.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

To a guy who had three. And turns out that he came out because he heard them. They were armed. They had their flag torn, camo on with the balaclavas over their face. I mean, it's a wonder nobody gets shot right there. But they still. A goat or a ram. I don't know that. I mean, I've asked people the difference. It was big, it had horns. I don't know if it was a go to a ram. But they. I walk up and they're like, had it in the back of the truck. And one of the members who went by Dema Dima says, man, this goat shitting all over the truck. And I said, well, hell, I would be, too, if a bunch of Neanderthals reflect horn and balaclavas just jerk me out of the backyard at gunpoint. I'm like, that gum, you know? And. And then Eisen was going to be running the blood on this one. And I see him over there, and he's petting the goat, and he's. It looks like he's showing it love and stuff. And I walked up and I said, hey, man, is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat? He says, hey, pale horse, don't let hear the goat.

[Theo]

Eisen was the guy's name.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, it was his. His code name. His real name was William Bilbrough.

[Theo]

Oh, I'm gonna say, because Eisen sounds like a Jewish name, it seems like a weird name to have, I think.

[Scott Payne]

I think it was actually a rune. I can't remember what Eisen stands for.

[Theo]

But anyway, Eisen is German and Ashkenazi US Surname meaning iron.

[Scott Payne]

There you go.

[Theo]

Okay, go on. Sorry.

[Scott Payne]

So I didn't know that. So I should have looked that up. I spent seven months with a guy. Well, but I'll be like, oh, iron. I got it. So he says, hey, don't let the goat hear you say that. And I'm like, okay. He's like, this goat. We're showing this goat love. We're going to sacrifice it to start the wild hunt. And it's going to Valhalla. It's going to be with Odin tonight. This is a good thing for the goat. No negative energy, basically. And don't let the other People hear you with negative energy. I said, got it. Push that beach ball down. Never think of it again, you know, underwater, it's going to push it down. So. So I walk over to. Oh, let me say this. The wild hunt in Norse mythology is essentially Odin and other gods going out in the middle of the night and laying the smack down to all their enemies. But in the version of the white supremacy, he's saying that this sacrifice is going to start the wild hunt for us to cleanse the world of darkness. So if you're anti fascist and you are non white, when boogaloo happens, what they were saying is if you were not fascist, you were automatically anti fascist and the penalty's death. I mean, these dudes would talk about shooting their own dads. Like, I'd have to kill my dad if he doesn't. If he doesn't switch to be fascist. I'm gonna have to kill my dad.

[Theo]

Wow.

[Scott Payne]

And then one would be like, I'd cry myself to sleep if I did. Another one would be like, well, I could never kill my parents. So you guys are way ahead of me. So you're hearing all this crazy stuff and you're hearing Pat down under the barn saying, I'm a ghost. My life is over. I don't exist anymore.

[Theo]

Because that's the guy that got docs

[Scott Payne]

doxed out of Canada.

[Theo]

And so can't y' all bust the group at this point or.

[Scott Payne]

No, we could, but there's, there's, that's the. I'm gonna tell you, in my opinion as a case agent on long term cases and as an undercover, that's the heart's decision to decide when do we have enough? Or, oh, this new guy just came in. One more buy and we can get. You know, it's.

[Theo]

Yeah, because at what point are you just like playing house or whatever? It almost seems like a White House.

[Scott Payne]

Right, but what would we choose charging with other than assisting getting an undocumented alien in right now, Right now? What charges are you going to come up with? Because there's no federal domestic terrorism charge.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Scott Payne]

There are federal international terrorism charges, but there's not for domestic terrorism.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

So I'm, I'm hearing all this crazy stuff. Like, I mean, we can form everybody that's been docs, we can have like a staging location or, or, you know, clubhouse somewhere where it's all us and we're all ghosts and we just go out murder. I mean, it's talking about laying out like a homeless person, learning the pattern of the lefty Journalist, and then just popping them in the back of the head with a.38 one day and just walk off. Wow, that's gorilla. That kind of small hit kind of thing. So we've got them, and then we get to that Halloween weekend. So they tell me they got the goat. And I go to my. My listening device, and I'm like, hey, talking to the case. And I'm like, if you can hear me, I'm pretty sure we're gonna go down here and slaughter this animal. I'm racking my brain, trying to think if there's anything. I'm definitely not seeing anything federal in my head. And I basically just tossed it to them. Do you want me to shut this thing down or you want me just drive off? Come up with a ruse and kind of drive off? I said, if you want me to, you need to let me know. And I waited and I stared at my divine. I waited and I waited. Waited for my phone to ring. I waited, waited, nothing. And I went, okay, I guess I'm heading down in the woods. So we head down, we carry the goat down. It's probably about 12 of us there, and.

[Theo]

As in, is the goat sleeping or.

[Scott Payne]

It's loud. No, no, we're walking it down, but, you know. Yeah. So we get down there and just doing.

[Theo]

Go. Shit.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, doing good. So we get down there to what was referred to as a holy spot. The torches are lit. Eisen leads the block, talks about, hey, we're going to sacrifice this goat to Odin. It's going to go be with the elves and everything.

[Theo]

And is he. Is it pretty organized, or is the guy, like, reading notes off of his phone?

[Scott Payne]

No, he wasn't the best. That other guy I told you about when we were in the. In the summer, I think he was a legit asatru.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

Priest. I mean, it was. It was. It was led very well. This one was a little choppy, you know, that's great. Yes. But God, but they're believing. They're believing it, right? So then. Then he has like a. It's bigger than a machete, but it's not quite a sword from what I remember. We're all around the goat. He's already given the whole speech about the wild hunt, and we're going to start killing all the anti fashion and non whites, because if everybody's white, that'll definitely save. That'll solve the problem. No, I won't. No, I won't. You know, Crazy. Still going to be fighting.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Gonna be cheating. Yeah. What are we Talking about here, but. So I end up. We're all in a circle around the goat, and somehow I ended up at the back legs, and he's already given the speech, and now he's got this blade, and he's. He's like. He's bringing it back with his hands, and he's coming down. Practice swing, swing, practice swing. Taking a breath. You can hear somebody say, just do it, you know? And he comes down, and I'm holding the back of that guy. He comes down with everything he's got. And all I heard was thunk. I don't think it broke a single hair. I don't know if the blade was dull or the backstrap of the goat was so strong. And for that second, I was like. In that split second, my mind, I'm like, oh, this is going to be bad. It's going to get bloody because I'm holding it. And. Yeah. And then you hear it may take two swings. Do it again. You all is yelling. And then somebody says, does anybody got a gun? I think it was Pestilence. Does anybody have a pistol? And we pass on. The rule was, is we weren't supposed to bring any weapons down there. But the one guy, zoom. That says, I got mine. I mean, me and Luke TMB both were looking at going, what? This is like, the least qualified guy to be holding a weapon. This dude's been up for, like, two days straight on Adderall. He worked third shift in Austin, Texas, and drove straight to Rome, Georgia. And I'm like. And not coordinated. I mean, gun stuff. I mean, I was like, oh, my goodness, man. You're the last person down here. He has the pistol over.

[Theo]

Luke takes it from, like, Assassin's Creed.

[Scott Payne]

Oh, yeah, yeah. So he takes. He takes the weapon, hands it to Eisen. Eisen chambers around, kind of points towards the goat, and then turns completely away to pull the trigger. And that's when the instructor in me, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

He's like, what? And I go, man, look at what you're shooting at, bro. We're all in a circle on our knees, man. He's like, oh, okay. I know, man.

[Theo]

I feel like this is a Larry David scout.

[Scott Payne]

I know. I mean, part of you in the comic comical side, you're like, I'll let him go ahead and shoot. I'm over here. You know, he's aiming that way. So he takes out, you know, but, yeah, so he puts one right in his head and then it goes down and it twitches. For a while. And I coax him to. I said, man, why don't you go ahead and put another round in it? Because it was debatable of. Is it after death twitches or is it still alive? I said, just go ahead and put it. I said, for the sake of the goat, because you want it to show up happy. Right. It's going. I mean, it's a good thing.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

I'm using his words against it, for sure.

[Theo]

Let it get there quick.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. I mean, you know, I thought, you know, so he did it. And then you could hear somebody say, now it's definitely dead. Oh, are we done? No. Now they slice the throat of the goat, fill up a cup full of blood. Yeah. And we're all in a circle.

[Theo]

And is it warm out or cold out?

[Scott Payne]

It is chill. It's cold.

[Theo]

Oh, it's bad.

[Scott Payne]

It's cold. Yeah, it's cold because it's the. Whatever happened that Halloween in 2019, it had been, like, 60s or 70s. And that day, a cold front came. It dropped to, like, 10. So we're down there, and he. They slice it. They fill the cup up with blood. Everybody's still in the circle except me. I'm holding the flashlight because Eisen decided to bring acid to help with the spiritual journey.

[Theo]

Lsd.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. Yeah. Had the sheets.

[Theo]

Sheet.

[Scott Payne]

Had a sheet.

[Theo]

So y' all took a hit or what?

[Scott Payne]

No, I didn't. And that was funny because they were like. One of the guys was like, hey, I'm. I'm a. How do you word it? I'm a very experienced, highly experienced psychedelic or something. I'm a professional psychedelic. Because we think you'd really like this pill Horse. I said, let me tell you something. You have no idea what's in my brain. You have no idea what I've done on this planet in my lifetime. I don't do that stuff. If somebody slips one on me and I go on a bad trip, every single one of you going with me.

[Theo]

Damn.

[Scott Payne]

You know that's the only way I do.

[Theo]

I just call, yes, I'm gonna use that.

[Scott Payne]

And then one guy was like. He was like, yeah, don't do it. Don't put nothing in Pale Horses drink. But I went around and I was shining, and he would tear a tab, put it under your tongue, chase it with the blood. Now you're signing. Now we're signifying the sacrifice. We're closing the deal here.

[Theo]

Yeah, now you're a sick app.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So now it gets to me. And I'm one of the last ones well, by the time it gets to me, Theo, I look down, and it is clotted. It is chunky. And I'm looking at it going, man, I really don't want to drink this, man. You know, I'm like. But I think Pestilence or. I don't know if he said it or I thought of it, but I just stuck two fingers deep into the blood, pulled out my fingers, and sucked the blood off my fingers.

[Theo]

Damn.

[Scott Payne]

And. And luckily, I'd carried a beer down there, and I chased it with that.

[Theo]

What kind of beer was it that night?

[Scott Payne]

It might have been Bud Light before the controversy.

[Theo]

Yeah. Oh, I think.

[Scott Payne]

No, it's. I think it was a Bud Light, but I. If it wasn't a Bud Light, it was a Yingling Lager, which is what I like.

[Theo]

Yeah. Yeah, that's nice. Damn, brother. Y' all down there eating blood and freaking doing lsd. I mean, what in the Is going.

[Scott Payne]

I know, right? So we're supposed to get up the next day and train. No. Training was shot.

[Theo]

What?

[Scott Payne]

Because only, like. Only, like, two or three people didn't do as acid. And everybody else was up all night staring at a fire.

[Theo]

I don't even know what y' all are training for. This feels like the New York jets kind of, dude. I'm like, what the fuck is going.

[Scott Payne]

So the second, like, we're not going to go handle weapons and be running across fields. Yeah. Because they'd been up all night and they were high, and I'm like, great. You just shot an entire day of training, you know, But I went to go get biscuits for everybody. I went to the Bojangles. Oh, they're good.

[Theo]

I just had one the other day, actually.

[Scott Payne]

Apparently, in Rome, Georgia, Bojangles is where it's at. Because cars, we backed all the way down downtown. I mean, down the main street, directly across the street from Bojangles with McDonald's. There were no cars in it, but I went and I picked up about 30 bacon, egg, and cheese biscuits. So I'm coming back, and all I can smell is that butter, that bacon, that cheese, and the Megs, that biscuit.

[Theo]

God.

[Scott Payne]

I go to get out of my truck, punish Snake, says Pale Horse. You got to try this goat. It is good. He's been holding that raw goat over a fire. It was not prepared at all. I've had some gamey stuff in my life. That was the gamiest tasting meat I ever put in my dagum mouth.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

And as soon as I started biting it, after smelling the butter and the. As soon as I bit into it, man, I was like, oh. I was like, that's not too bad. As soon as he turned his head, I tossed it to the farm dogs.

[Theo]

I was like, yeah, dude, I've had bad meat on some lsd and that's. You never forget that. You never forget that, Jamie. Yeah, I mean, I've just. I've eaten undercooked duck on lsd.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

And I never forget that. I still. Sometimes I'll still floss my teeth years later, even just to get the. Just I feel like some of it's still in there.

[Scott Payne]

So. So after the sacrifice, the chop the head of the goat off and we carry it around.

[Theo]

What the hell is that?

[Scott Payne]

We took a picture because the. The recruitment process was this. Whatever video, whatever new recruitment video we're doing has to be better than the last one.

[Theo]

Got it?

[Scott Payne]

Every time the base got infiltrated by either a journalist or whatever, and their opsec got better and better. How did that happen? How did we get infiltrated? How do we stop it from happening again? So Saturday night comes. Saturday comes. Now we can start training again. So we're out there shooting and running and stuff. And now it's warming back up, and we. We go down Saturday night to the holy spot and build a bonfire. We. We burn American flags. There it is. Now, here's the thing. He nicknamed that goat Gar. His name is William Garfield Bilbro. His grandfather's name is Garfield. So he named the goat Gar. So everybody talked about Gar after that. I am back row two left from the flag. You can see my neck.

[Theo]

There you go.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, that's me right there showing a little neck. Little neck. Well, yeah. The balaclava didn't go all the way down. Somebody should have caught that and been like, pale horse. Your neck's showing.

[Theo]

You bought that baby, Clav.

[Scott Payne]

I didn't know they give it to you. That's part of your initiation. When you made it in, they gave me the balaclava and the. The three runes.

[Theo]

That's smaller, Clav. A little small for you.

[Scott Payne]

I got. I got a. I got. I got a horse head.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah.

[Scott Payne]

So then we go down and we burn American flags and we burn holy Bibles. And I remember coming back after that weekend, and I remember just feeling kind of dirty. I mean, I've been. Maybe that's because I'd been up for four days or whatever. I don't know. The rain and on and on. But just the act and just the feeling of. I was like, man, I just feel weird.

[Theo]

Yeah, your spirit.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. Because I'm like, yeah, that's it. Because I, Because I'm like, man. I come back to the office and I go, I've been working undercover since 1996, off and on. Started street level narcotics. I said, I have never had to burn American flags. I've never had to burn holy Bibles and I definitely wouldn't with a group of people that went and stole a goat sacrifice. Didn't we drank his blood at a ritual, you know, because even though they're saying pagans, some of those dudes are praying to Satan. Some of those dudes are playing to like order of nine angles where it's a lot more satanic. And yeah, it's. But that weekend, I guess I had passed the benchmark of trust because that Saturday night after everybody's going to bed, it's me, Pestilence and tmb and I kind of ask him a question. I go, you know, a while back, of course I know what I'm asking about because we're trying to figure out what it is. But a recording that I'd gotten, the case teams and myself, we were trying to figure out what they meant and I kind of recircled, circle back on that. And I said, what were we talking about there? And they kind of whisper and I hear Pestilence say, yeah, I think we can trust him. So, hey, phone and airplane mode. Cool. And we start talking and they start telling me about that They've, they've been, they're talking about wanting to do bigger things. They didn't necessarily, they didn't necessarily necessarily say we were going to kill people yet, but definitely enough to lead us to believe that we need to stay in this longer because we got to figure out what they're talking about. Yeah, right. So let's just fast forward, fast forward. Because this was a fast paced case. It was only seven months long, but I'm telling you, it was like no sleep for seven months, you know?

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

And, and just running and gunning. So what I found out is the Georgia Cell has identified a couple, a couple of counties over in Georgia that they believed were active members of Atlanta antifa and anti fascist. Right. So they wanted to murder him. And so when you find out that somebody's getting ready to be like, we're like, man, what is it that they were supposed to do? And I'm like, Luke would never answer me on the phone. He would just giggle and he goes, look, I'll tell you to your face, I'm just gonna do it. On the phone. I said, you know what? I'm cruising through there tomorrow. I wasn't, obviously. I'm like, I called the case team. You ready to go to Georgia tomorrow? You ready for me tomorrow? Yeah. So I go down, wake him up. I'm like, okay. You know, I like the joke. I like to have fun, but when it's time to be do business, I'm serious. I said, so, what the f are we doing? Because he wouldn't tell me. They called us. They sent out a thing like, hey, training this. We're going on a camping trip. Blah, blah, blah. Bring it. It looked like he was talking about going out and putting up stickers, posters, flyers. But then he said, make sure you bring your weapons. And then we were all like, what does he mean? What could be going on? So when I met him that day, I said. When I said, what the f are we doing? He says, essentially, we're going to whack some people. And I said, well, that's way different than putting up stickers.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

And it's something I definitely would not want to drive my personal truck to. That's why I'm asking you, what are we doing? Do I need to bring something that doesn't come back to me kind of thing.

[Theo]

Get a rental or whatever?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So he. He says. He starts laying it out. But now I'm thinking. Because the case team's thinking this, too. We got to slow this down. We got to slow this down, because if we wouldn't have found out, I would have been finding out at a camp on a Friday night. And how am I letting my cover team know that? You know what I mean?

[Theo]

So, yeah, you got to hurt.

[Scott Payne]

You can't. So, yeah, I pointed out to him,

[Theo]

because you need some space for everybody to figure things out. So you got to hopefully.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, so. So I'm like. I. I told him, I mean, sometimes the case doesn't allow for that. You got to take it down right then and there for sure. But I pointed out to him how little. How little planning he had put in to this murder he's talking about, because the planning he drafted on putting up flyers, like, insanely operational security. I'm like, what. What's the. I'm just tired of waiting. And I said, look, I'm a site. I played a.

[Theo]

And did he send you a jpeg of it or what? Did he just draw it on something?

[Scott Payne]

No, he was just telling me.

[Theo]

He was just telling me there's no drawing of it.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, nothing.

[Theo]

Oh, you got to at least. Damn Draw it up so.

[Scott Payne]

So well. And that's what I told him. I was. I was portraying a site survey, a site survey specialist. And I said, dude, this is what I do. I said, I go, I can go in and pull demographics, home, schools, crime rates, everything. I said, let me find out what's all at this house. I mean, have you ever been by it? He said, no. So we start building that. I come in with fake plates. I say, I just took these off of car in Florida. Throw those on. We go by, we case the place. I'm not leading it. They're leaving it. Right. And meanwhile, Punished Snake has now gone back to the Maryland cell. He's up there with a guy that goes by. Can't Go back. Can't Go Back was the only one that I really knew in our own proximity that actually had a job too. He was a truck driver and he had a $6,000 thermal scope on the 6.5 Creedmoor. And they were talking about. Now they. They're up there, they're plotting the kickoff of the Boogaloo. Because there was going to be a Second Amendment gun right. Gun. Second Amendment rally for gun rights in Virginia in 2020. January of 2020. And they thought, okay, you're going to have antifa. You're going to have 3 percenters, militia types, anti government types. You're going to have law enforcement. What if we start popping rounds into the crowd from our sniper rifles and then nobody knows who's shooting each other and they start shooting each other. What if that's the kickoff to the Boogaloo? I know it's not a lot of forethought or a lot of afterthought, but this is what you're dealing with.

[Theo]

Right. And I'll say this, that's a good plan.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

For what they're trying to do.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. Create chaos.

[Theo]

It's like when you tap somebody on the shoulder over here and you're standing over here.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, exactly.

[Theo]

You know which dude? Victor Wembanyani. You know who that is? Basketball guy.

[Scott Payne]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Theo]

Tallest guy ever. Imagine if he does that to people all the time, where he would, like, tap somebody way over there.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. And nobody knows.

[Theo]

And he's three people over. Dude.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Imagine in kindergarten or whatever. He must have been able to have the most fun. Anyway, back into the story. So, yeah, that's absolutely insane.

[Scott Payne]

So then we start casing that. But meanwhile, we're finding out more stuff on this. These, the sale up in Maryland. And what the Baltimore division does is they do a Title 3 wiretap and they put cameras in that apartment. If I thought. If what I thought they were talking about was crazy face to face, the stuff that they were sending me that they were saying in that apartment was just them two going. I'm like, holy crap. They're talking about breaking out the Saints and what they refer to as saints as your white supremacy mass shooters. The Charleston guy, the New Zealand guy, the Norway guy. I'm not saying their names prefer on a purpose.

[Theo]

Right.

[Scott Payne]

But they have like, they actually have a scoreboard and it says the scoreboard and it's got the mass shooters, the white supremacist 77 and. Oh, that's the, that's the Norway guy. I think it's 55. And I was New Zealand. You go all the way down Pittsburgh 7 and 09 for Charleston. And it says, when will you make the leaderboard?

[Theo]

Wow.

[Scott Payne]

You know, these are dark. Yeah. So on the anniversary of those mass murders, they'll say happy Saints, right? Like if it were me, it'd be Happy Saint pain day, you know, and it's just crazy. So. But again, are you just talking trash? Are you going to go do something?

[Theo]

Right.

[Scott Payne]

So now we're diving down to the end of this case and we're on a time we're on. We're trying to make sure everything gets together. And I'm running non stop. I go to Baltimore, I drive up and shoot all day with the Maryland crew, trying to tighten things up, make sure we got everything settled for that go down to the Georgia crew, have cased the place with everybody in the, in the. I mean, you got guys saying like, hey, are there any kids? And another dude saying, I don't have a problem shooting a comic kid. You got another dude saying, oh, I'm perfect. I'm an it. I work nine to five. I look like a normal citizen. But I've been, I've been wanting to do this for two years. Can I pop my cherry? I'm like, well, popping your cherry means something to me. What are you talking about?

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Oh, he actually wants to put a bullet in one of his head. He doesn't want to just be standing guard. So for this Georgia crew, they had it down to where we all four were going to go in.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

One was going to post in the window me. And this is what I was instructed to do. Me and TMB were going to go down and murder the family and anything else. But if they want to put a bullet in too, we'll let them take a shot and then pestilence was going to set the house on fire, we're going to leave. And that was, that was, that was number one because they had already started forming a list of liberals, journalist anchors. And I'm like, you tell, I said, you're telling me that you want to start taking out people who are like, popular, popular. They go, yeah. And I go, well, it's a good thing we got this family to start and get a little practice run. But.

[Theo]

So you're trying to keep them locked into this so that you guys can, you guys can, can you look at, can take action, right?

[Scott Payne]

And you're looking at overt acts. Okay, so what did you do? So if you want to come back and say, oh, we were just talking trash. No, you bought catch bags to put on ars. So when you shoot, if you have to shoot, it catches the brass. You don't leave. Brass created a silencer for a gun. Other things. Like he told us the way it was going to work is we were going to go to a camp, leave all of our digital footprint, all media, all phones, everything there. Go to a pay by the hour motel, scrub all our loose skin off. We're going to put on BDU's or whatever. We're going to tape our pants to our boots, tape our gloves to our wrists. Even this he was instructing, even put Vaseline on your facial hair so you don't drop anything. And he'd even done enough research to where he had read that this would be Luke tmb, who was telling me this. He had read that for a lot of people, the first time they murder somebody, they lose control of their Bible. So he was suggesting we wear Depends.

[Theo]

What do you mean? Diapers?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, diapers.

[Theo]

Oh my God.

[Scott Payne]

And I looked at him and I said, I'll be all right. I didn't say I killed anybody. I'm just saying I don't need a diaper.

[Theo]

Wow.

[Scott Payne]

You know, I'm like, I'll be okay just letting them let it marinate. So we were able to pull it all off. We came in on a Wednesday, man. Yeah, yeah, we came in on a Wednesday, started the arrest. I picked up Luke because we figured that would. I mean, sneaking up on 100 acre. Fuck.

[Theo]

Hold on a second, hold on a second. Yeah, this has gone so fast, man. I mean, it's gone, it's taken, it's a long story, but it's gone. So now it's at this crescendo where it's like, like that's kind of. So what are you like that day

[Scott Payne]

do you like, I was running on fumes, man. I think I had the flu at the time. My back was spasming because what I didn't realize.

[Theo]

Yeah, you're gonna murder someone. I think you. Damn. That's L5S1.

[Scott Payne]

I know.

[Theo]

You're right.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So I'm like. I had a lumbar fusion in 2002. After this case, in 2020, I found out that my lumbar fusion had broken approximately three to five years after. So they were telling me for, like 15 years, I was going around with a dislocate. I mean, right. A back that's disconnected.

[Theo]

Just a bad hitch or whatever.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. I mean, broke. There's nothing in. There's no cadaver bone. There's no disc. It's just floating and, you know, floating spine trick.

[Theo]

That sounds like.

[Scott Payne]

So every. You would hear me on the recording. And they was like, was that you making that sound? I said, yeah. And they go, what happened? I said, my back jerked. You know, I'm walking. I'm like. I'm walking. I go like that. You know,

[Theo]

brother, you just. You barely keeping it together. Okay, so let's get to the end of this story. Just because we should.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

You guys are driving over there. You're driving.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So I drive.

[Theo]

You know what yalls plan is? You know what?

[Scott Payne]

Yes. Yeah. Because I. For me, personally, I was dealing with SWAT teams because they were going to let a SWAT team hit us. So I made sure that. I mean, I go and meet them, they tell me what they're planning on, and as long as I'm okay and I don't disagree with satisfaction safety stuff, being a SWAT guy myself, you know, And I'm like, okay. I looked at it. I'm like, oh, these dudes are squared away. So I go and pick Luke up for lunch. But I've already. We've already laid out all this stuff to where I'm like, hey, man, we're getting close to this thing. He's like, yeah. I said, you know, I've been thinking. The last thing we need to do is be riding around armed and get put on the radar. But the cop stopped us, like. And he goes, you know, that's a good idea. So when I picked him up that day, I said, hey, you're not packing, right? He goes, no, no, no. I left it inside. I said, me neither, man. So I'm getting the information, getting the intel that he's not carrying.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

We pull around. I. Like, my truck has a problem. I pull over, I go. I get. If I said, damn. Because literally, it is happened to my truck. The calipers froze. They got lay locked and froze, and smoke was going everywhere. I said, if that damn caliber is locked again. And he's like, man. So I pull over, and I get close to the fence to where he can't get out. And then I go around the back of the truck, act like I'm looking. And another truck pulls up. Well, it's actually an FBI agent. But he pulls up and he goes, hey, man, you need me help? And I look up and I came up with the whole ruse. We practice it, and. And he says, hey, man, you need any help? And I look up and I go, holy shit. What are you doing here? Now we're acting like we know each other. He goes, what are you doing here? I go, man, I ain't seen you in forever. I didn't know you lived around here. I go, man, this is a nice truck. And as I'm walking up to talk to him, Luke's looking at us. And then what he doesn't see is the Bearcat, which is the military vehicle the SWAT team uses. And it's coming over the hill. So he's focused on us. And I jump into the truck right when they pull up, right when I'm jumping into the truck, going, go, go, go. There. Out there, they got. I mean, rifles. They're up on a turret. Don't move. And they got him out. No issues. Arrest. Will know nothing wrong. And then while that happens. And then they go pick up Pestilence at his house. They pick up Helter Skelter, who was the Bought My Cherry guy. They pick him up at his work.

[Theo]

He's wild. And.

[Scott Payne]

And then we keep it quiet because Thursday morning, he's just still more to bust. Yeah, because Wednesday. That was Wednesday. Thursday morning, the Washington Field Office SWAT team hit Bilbro. The Baltimore SWAT team hit. Can't go back and punish Snake. And then now it starts coming out. So now it's Friday, and I'm still in the group. I'm just monitoring. And it's Friday, and I'm Now. Now the arrests are starting to come out. Like, holy crap. Did you see this? Did you read this? And now the affidavits are starting to pop up, up. And they're like, wait, it says here that there's a fed that infiltrated this group. And they're like, who's the fed in the group? And everybody's like, is anybody heard from Pale Horse? No, no, no. And it goes on and goes, I'm just watching. I'm watching. Somewhere around 5 o' clock on Friday, Nazaro Roman Wolf, aka Roman Wolf, comes on and goes. He says something to the effect of. I'm not sure we could have done anything to pick him up because he was one of our best members. And then. And I was like, oh, he knows it's me because he's going back. And I mean, I'm sure he keeps recordings of all the interviews he's done and stuff. Or at least say, on this date I did this.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

And. And they figured it out. And I was like, oh, he's got me. And it says, boom, you've been removed by Roman Wolf. I screenshotted it and I sent it to all the case teams, headquarters, everything. And I go, and I'm out.

[Theo]

Damn.

[Scott Payne]

But they were talking. We had some other coverage in there that people reported. And it turns out there was another dude that had infiltrated that group. Not law enforcement, though, was doing it, helping, you know, reporting to, you know, I don't know whether it be the Guardian something paper. Yeah. BBC something. So we got copies of what the chatter after I got booted and some of my. My case team printed it for me. When I came in, it was highlighted up on my desk. It says something like, was. Are you saying the Fed was the guy with the deep voice on the calls? And they're like, yeah. And they go, there's no way, dude. That's one of the most solid neo Nazis I've ever been around, you know? And then the other one would be like, oh, there was something really endearing about him, you know? And I look at the squad and I'm like, see, they do love me. These are my people, you know? But, yeah. Oh, damn, bro.

[Theo]

Yeah, fuck.

[Scott Payne]

And then. And then you. Then you get home and you go, now I take a shower.

[Theo]

Yeah. How long do you take off after that?

[Scott Payne]

It depends, because I used to not take any days off, but that ended up being my downfall. And then I learned how not to do that to myself. So by that time, I'm long in the tooth. I could have worked Till I was 57. That's the cut off for the FBI. But I was 50 at this point. Or at least I retired at 50.

[Theo]

Well, you look great, man.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, so it was like, you know, I was like, that one. I probably took a week off, you know, just relax, chill. Called my pastor, though. Especially after that Halloween weekend. I was like, man, I feel kind of of like you said, my spirit. I was like, I feel kind of dirty, man. You mind praying over me? You know?

[Theo]

And do you have a family during this?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Do you still have a family?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. Yeah, but I'm going through a divorce.

[Theo]

Are you.

[Scott Payne]

We didn't make it. Not gonna talk about it because it's still going through.

[Theo]

But I'm sorry to hear that for you and your wife.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, it's a. We're a statistic now, you know, so kids. Kids have grown up, moved out, and then. And then I retired and. Yeah.

[Theo]

Do you feel like the job had an effect on your marriage?

[Scott Payne]

I'm sure, because my wife was not law enforcement. This was not her world. Essentially, I was her world, so she married me. But you married me. Yeah, you married the Bureau, too. I mean, you look back and doing the book, you had to dive back in. Because I wanted to be transparent. That's the only way I know how to be. But I don't want it to be all cakes and pies. I want to tell you when it was sad, too, and when it was messed up.

[Theo]

Up.

[Scott Payne]

So even though we were happy at the time we were doing this book, to dive back into times where we weren't happy, that was tough. That was tough, man. To put your mind back when. Oh, my gosh, you know, nine, one one, hang up, call. Cops show up at the house. I gotta call my supervisor. You know, whatever. Whatever's going on, me. Me going through, you know, getting stripped in a basement at gunpoint and all this stuff, it's just. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure it did. Well, I know it did, because especially during some of the cases early on when our kids were young, like three and one, man, I could just get rid of her nervous energy. She'd be moving furniture and stuff, so I'd come home and, you know, you walk in the door and trip over something. I'm like, why the. Who put the couch here? You know, really?

[Theo]

But then, much anxiety.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. And the way she tells it is that she finally just had to give it up to the Lord because she. She's. She could worry about me all the time. But I told her, I said, when it's my time, it's my time. I think I'm good at what I do. I'm not lackadaisical. I've been blessed with this skill set and with this, you know, whatever. I've been blessed with all this. So.

[Theo]

Man, that would be. So It'd be tough. Take somebody you love every day and just let and know that the whole day there is a risk.

[Scott Payne]

Well, welcome to First Responder in military.

[Theo]

Yeah. Thank you for saying that. No, you're right.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. I mean, it's like I said, man, if you're. You think a pitch to hire people is like, hey, we're real high in suicide, substance abuse, divorce, and dying within five years after retiring. Who wants in?

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Oh, man, sign me up.

[Theo]

Hey, T, even laugh at that.

[Scott Payne]

I know, but it's like, you know, like, so we got to get better. And you're seeing a lot more stuff. You're seeing a lot more. I don't know if law enforcement is going to open up about it. They should. But you see a lot of spec ops, former spec ops, former law enforcement, and they're getting these. They're getting these plant based treatments, you know?

[Theo]

Yeah. I can't even imagine. I never thought about the stress that spouses and children must feel with a member of their family being involved, like in. In a service, in life, risking service, you know.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. I think there should be more, actually. My wife was saying it from the jump because we in the FBI, we have a psychological unit that was specifically created for undercovers. It's called Safeguard. So if I'm an active undercover, I have to be psychologically assessed. Mandatory.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

And then we expanded it out and it's being used to do a lot of things. So like if you're an agent or a task force officer and you work innocent images, crimes against children, we get you assessed because it's tough to look at that stuff and see that kind of stuff on a daily basis.

[Theo]

Had to take a little bathroom break there, man.

[Scott Payne]

Let's go.

[Theo]

This is the longest episode we've ever had, I think, man. So thank you for your attention to detail and just taking us down some.

[Scott Payne]

Being a slow talker.

[Theo]

Hey, just taking us down some memories of yours, man. It's nice. It's nice to listen to a storyteller, you know, someone share. Share their story and share stories from their book. And I know, I know you had mentioned earlier, we talked a little bit about the 1 percenters, and you had a pretty famed case with the Outlaws. Can you take me into that? Sure.

[Scott Payne]

Again, longest undercover, I did two years. The infiltration, I kind of got. I can't remember again if I got recruited or I saw a canvas, but it was probably just a phone call because as I said, working at the UC school, at the undercover school, if you in the bureau, if you say, all right, we've got 600 certified undercovers. How many of those undercovers have been the primary undercover on an operation on 1.

[Theo]

1.

[Scott Payne]

That's going to dwindle down. More than 1, less than 5. It's going to dwindle down more than 5, less than 10. Now it's really getting dwindled down. If you get to like that 10 and over mark, it's generally we all know each other because we all go back to the program. We all help out with the school and stuff, and you know, who's active and who isn't. So somebody reaches out. I went up and did the interview in Massachusetts, in Boston, and I got the gig. We talked about all kinds of things on, like, ways to go in, ways to not go in. I preferred to go in cold, which means I'm not being introduced by source.

[Theo]

Go into.

[Scott Payne]

To try to make that bump. In other words, the Outlaws were already predicated. They've already. The outlaw motorcycle Club is a 1 percenter. Club is the probably the second largest. Hell's Angels is probably the largest.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Scott Payne]

But worldwide. And that's. That's their. That's their colors right there. They refer. They refer to the skull as character.

[Theo]

Okay. The AOA, American Outlaws Association. They started in McCook, Illinois in 1935. The Outlaws MC is the oldest outlaw biker club in the world with 441 chapters located in 43 countries. The club is also the second largest in the world behind the Hells Angels. And what made you. Is it still active?

[Scott Payne]

Oh, yeah. The Outlaws are still going strong.

[Theo]

And what made you want to infiltrate them?

[Scott Payne]

Well, it's the case team. It's not necessarily me is that there's a case team and the task force and. And state and local law enforcement that have been working up there, and they've got different over. They've got different crimes, They've arrested people, but they're at a point now in their investigation where they feel like they can get it undercover or that's the next step to do.

[Theo]

Got it. And the whole group. Outlaws is not a criminal organization. There was just somebody that was doing crime in it.

[Scott Payne]

Correct.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

That's the argument. Like, like I said earlier, somebody's like. Like, we're all one percenters. Criminals. Okay? Not necessarily, but it's kind of the point of being a 1 percenter, you know what I mean? But like, all bikers, you know, I didn't. You know, I've heard them say, or not all of them, but the ones I infiltrate is like, I didn't join the Outlaws to be a beta, right. I joined the Outlaws to be an alpha.

[Theo]

Right.

[Scott Payne]

I'm going out here. I don't care what I'm doing. I'm an outlaw.

[Theo]

Yeah. All private equity people. Criminals.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. But so they. These guys were predicated. The Taunton chapter. Specifically. Specifically Taunton, Massachusetts. And I went up, I interviewed, and I said, look, okay, my idea was just let me go in there. So what I did. Because I used to work at gentlemen's clubs, which is an oxymoron in my opinion, because there's no gentleman in there. And neither was I back then. Living in the flesh, as they say.

[Theo]

Amen.

[Scott Payne]

I know, right? Then you have two daughters, and it's all girl dogs. I'm like, y' all stay away from any pole in this house. I swear. No, but I. I knew how those establishments worked. So I went. I would go in when. Like, day shift, when it wasn't. And the Outlaws weren't all in there because we knew that. They told me the bar they were at and stuff. So that's what I did maybe two, three times. Because human nature is to exaggerate, you know? So the night that they're finally coming in, the Outlaws are finally coming in.

[Theo]

Coming into the strip club.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, because I'm there now. Okay, so they have a lot of your biker clubs. 1 percenter clubs have a mandatory meeting every week. They refer to that as church. Some clubs, that's where they talk dirty business. You know, you leave your phones outside, all that thing, or it just might be shooting the bull. It might be time to collect the dues, whatever. But the surveillance team was on them. I'm already at the Foxy lady, which was the. The strip club, and that's in Oregon. It was in Brockton, Massachusetts.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

So Taunton and Brockton are right next to each other. Okay. But the strip club's in Brockton. So I'm already at the Foxy Lady. I'm getting some drinks. I'm telling jokes. People are laughing. And then here comes, like, 13, 15 outlaws, and they take the whole back wall in the back bar, see a black leather and testosterone, right? And originally, I'd been told that they weren't allowed to wear their colors, which is the. The vest with the moniker you saw, you got. That's their cut. And I'm. That was one of my first questions. I'm like, hey, man, can they wear their colors in the club and the bars? And they're like, no, they're not allowed to. And I'm like, okay, that makes it easier for me.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Because now I'm just a tattooed dude drinking whiskey, looking at naked people, listening to heavy metal music. It's the same thing the guy next to me is doing. But when they come in and they're all wearing their colors, that changes my approach, because. Listen to me. Do I sound like I'm from Boston? Absolutely not. As soon as I start talking, they're like, where the F are you from? You know? And I'm like, you know, deep South. South. South. I'm from South Boston. I'm a Southie.

[Theo]

But South Carolina.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, South Carolina. That's it. You know, Kakalaki. So I, you know, do you walk over around the bar and go, hey, fellas, y' all ride? No, I'm gonna take a butt kicking or something. So I started working, doing. Doing what I do, I guess. There was one guy that they had said that was in the group, and they had the intel perfect on him. He loved to be surrounded by big dudes he liked, like, to be the center of attention. So I'm laughing it up and I'm cutting it up, and it's getting louder and louder and. But I've got people around me. I can see him, you know, it's like fishing. Like, I can see him looking, you know, And I'm like, okay, all right. He's paying attention now. I was a bigger dude, six four, probably 280 then, and holding it very well. And he. I see him talking to the bartender. Well, what's he saying? Who is that? Oh, that dude's from Texas, man. He comes here all the time. All the time. Two, three times, you know, whatever. But then eventually he yells at me and he says, he, yeah, there I am right there. After a shoulder surgery, he yells at me and he says, hey, where the F are you from? And I'm like, man, down near the border of Mexico. What? So we start joking back and forth. I think he sent me a drink first, called me over. I went over, started talking. Next thing you know, we're hitting it off. He's giving me cards for the lobster festival, which is Lobster Fest.

[Theo]

Yeah, they love it.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, lobster. And it was going to be in, like, the next month. And he said, just tell him you're with me. And so then you start. You just start ingratiating, and you start getting trust.

[Theo]

Yeah, and they love a lobster, man. Yes, they love a fish that can pinch you.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, man. And me, too. I'm a. I'm a bottom feeder. All of them, man. All them shrimp. Shrimp and crab legs. I can eat my weight in that stuff.

[Theo]

Yeah, I'm a top.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So eventually you get in and you make more and more Acquaintances. And I came in as a site survey specialist, the same kind of thing I did on the base case. But that allowed me to travel. It allowed me to be there and not live there or whatever. You know, I found quickly when I started flying a lot that even in Houston, when I was based in McAllen, there's people that don't live in Houston, but there's so many daggum flights. They literally fly in, work, fly home, or they might come in for the week and then go home on the weekend. So I said, well, I can sell that because it's true. I mean I've seen plenty of people doing it. So that's kind of what I was doing.

[Theo]

And living in Texas and flying in for work.

[Scott Payne]

Yep. And then eventually they find out that I'm also a criminal. Shocker. Right. Because they're already predicated.

[Theo]

I mean, what were you flying for? Just to be part of the group?

[Scott Payne]

No, I originally said I'm there doing site survey specialist work for investors that are looking to buy property. And I would go do that and, and I would actually go legitimately go down to the clerk of court and pull records and stuff and. Because again, you want it to look, smell, taste, feel real. But they, what they eventually learned or what I portrayed and what they believe was that I was a high ranking, if not the leader of a high ranking member, if not the leader of an international theft ring and I was moving stuff into Mexico. So it started with some insurance fraud. They would report vehicles, stolen, motorcycles, and this is all based on the truth because at that time when I was living in the border, I'd already learned through auto theft groups, task forces and stuff, and from the insurance company that Harley Davidsons and V8, 4x4s, man, the cartel, they would steal them all the time. So. So I'm telling the truth. And they do motorcycles first. So they report three or four Harley stolen. So they get the stolen money from their insurance company. I pay a stolen price, which is usually around 20% of what the real price would be. And then I'm off. Well, they don't get arrested. And then the next thing you know it's a truck. And the next thing you know, and then we get full fledged. Now it's like, like when you're coming back, Tex, when you coming back? I got three things lined up. So you pull up and man, we would load F350s.

[Theo]

Yeah. Steal my wife.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, F350 and stuff like that. But even if you were worried about predication, like if you're predicated and for the people that don't know that, it just means that we've got evidence that you either talked about it or doing it. So if we have nothing on you and I'm coming up to bump you, and I just come and go, hey, man, you want some marijuana or you want. You want a kilo of coke? That's. That's odd, and that's not right. I'm now leading it, right? But when. The first time I walk outside with the president of the Outlaws chapter, who went by Joe Dogs. So he's the. He's the chapter president. We walk outside and he goes, where you live? I said, mcallen. He goes, where's that? Goes right on the border. Next question. How much can you get a kilo of cocaine for? I'm like, about 13 right now. Between 11 and 13 on the border. He goes, man, if I could get them for 13. I said, no, you don't get them for 13 unless you come to the border and then you drive them back up. The reason they cost 25 to 30 up here is because it has to make it here from the border. Not a good drug dealer or his math was off.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Not a good businessman. I'm like, no, that's not how it works. There's risk involved.

[Theo]

Well, it's a good pitch. I want to get it for the same as you.

[Scott Payne]

I know. Yeah. So next thing you know, like I said, F350s, 4 by 4, Tahoe.

[Theo]

So it's a lot of insurance fraud. At first.

[Scott Payne]

At first, got it. Then I've gained trust. Now they carjack somebody, and they're calling me. Text, we got one that is hot. I mean, it is on fire right now. We just took this dude at gunpoint. We almost killed him. Blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, don't worry about it. I got it. And now I'm moving that. Now I'm gaining more trust, right? So as the case goes on and

[Theo]

are y' all using code language, like, we got a bad lobster up here or something like that? You can.

[Scott Payne]

But what's comical about that, Theo, is I've sat on so many wiretaps and we've run wiretaps, and you're listening, or you get on the phone yourself as undercover, and you're being all, like, super operational security. You're like, okay, the. The bird is in the cage, right? I've got three cheeseburgers out back. Five minutes into the conversation, I'm telling you, 99% of the time, they're just talking openly dirty yeah. It's like they start with it, you know, like. You know what I mean?

[Theo]

Yeah, yeah. There's like a whisper in the wigwam or whatever, right?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So, like, I had a guy on another case. I won't go into it because I will stay on the Outlaws. But this is what he. He's like, no, Scott, you know, I don't do cocaine anymore. And I'm looking at him going, I know, man. I know. He goes, I used to do a boatload of it, but I don't do it anymore. I said, I know. He said, this right here, that's just a bump. And he goes on. And I go, you just did cocaine? And you said, okay. And he says, and, you know, I don't sell it anymore either. I said, I know, Mike. He said, I used to sell truckloads of it, but I don't anymore. I said, I know, man. He goes, but if you want them five, eight balls, I'll get them for 750. It's just like. I'm like. I'm like, I am confused. So. So during this case, a guy I didn't tell you about, it was actually a picture of him. In that picture, you pulled up the red shirt, red T shirt. A Scott Town. I talk thoroughly about Scott Town, the book look again. I told you, I worked undercover from 96 to 2022, roughly.

[Theo]

And how much cocaine are you on right there with that bad arm, brother? Look at you grinning.

[Scott Payne]

That would be muscle relaxers and pain pills.

[Theo]

My God.

[Scott Payne]

I'm like. I'm like, less than a week out, I think, right there.

[Theo]

Your smile did a gram at least, brother.

[Scott Payne]

No, I did not. Yeah, I know.

[Theo]

Okay, so Scott Town.

[Scott Payne]

So this is legitimately the closest relationship I've ever built undercover. We bonded so well. It was scary. Like, I mean, I'm talking like, we could complete each other's sentences. We thought the same. It was literally the story of that proverbial fork in the road. He went that way, and I went that way, and I easily could have gone his way. And maybe that's why I was good at my skill set in these types

[Theo]

of environments, because y' all was just friends.

[Scott Payne]

Well, he was. He was. He went to jail. He was a target. I mean, he. He was not a patch member. His story was he was going to be patched, but he was also doing some stuff for the mafia, and somewhere his group got pinched, and he was. He was. He was looking at time. And at that point in time, he had four daughters. And he said, I don't want to. I don't want to go to prison with my four daughters. And I was like, hey, man, cool. But there would be, like, a lot. They would be talk, like, man grenades, bazookas, whatever. Rocket launchers. Not a baz. Rocket launcher. Yeah, but those things would talk, and then it wouldn't come to. Or somebody would come in talking big, and we'd like, oh, this looks good. And then it wouldn't come through. But. But after the carjackings and things like that, we start getting more and more because the case team is also running a Title 3 wiretap. And eventually we got to the point in the case where I let them know. Not all at once, but I let them know that, yes, I did used to be in the drug trade. But he was getting close. People were getting pinched, and I backed out of it because running everything south, most of the time, law enforcement is looking for money or guns, going south to trade for dope or buy dope.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

I'm like, if you got a stone, this is my story to him. I'm like. I'm like, if you've got a truck full of stolen vehicles, if the bill of Laden. I mean, what's the truck driver now? He sees a bill of Laden, he does what he does. I'll just talk about blowing smoke, but it kind of making it. Making them comfortable, relaxed, I think enough. But I eventually let them know I did used to be in the dope game, because from day one, they were hounding me. When you going to introduce somebody down. There we go. Think of it. What does a drug dealer want? They want the purest dope they can get at the cheapest price they can get. So that way you can step on it and make some money. Right. So imagine having a pipeline in little old Taunton, Massachusetts, directly from the cartel.

[Theo]

Let's go.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. Right. You're getting keys.

[Theo]

So that's what they saw in you.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. Got it. Yeah.

[Theo]

And that was all fictional.

[Scott Payne]

That was my backstory.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

That was my legend. Yeah. But it wasn't really happening. Right. And like, all the stolen vehicles, they would think they're going to now, we would make sure nobody's following them. But then that semi would turn around and head up north of Boston or something to a warehouse. And by the end of the case, you got a warehouse full of. Of stolen parts and cars and motorcycles and stolen cars and whatever. Big trucks. Big trucks.

[Theo]

But so the case gets to a point like, yeah, sorry, that's good.

[Scott Payne]

So I start laying out that I wasn't a dope game. And Joe Dogs is chomping at the bit, man. He's like. He's like, dude, if I. You got to introduce me. I started saying, my guy's Manny, Manny, Manny. And they're like, man, if I can meet Manny. Well, the whole ruse was. And this. This technique's been used, and it was a drug protection. I said, look, here's the deal. I laid it out over a long period of time, but I'm like, look, Manny reached out to me, wants to know he wanted my truck drivers to deliver a load into Canada. And I. And the reason I told them that a white guy, the gringo, never got kicked out of a Mexican drug trafficking organization or international theft ring is because I was the guy with the dirty contacts at the port of entry and at the checkpoints. And yes, there's corruption. Not all, but I'm saying it. It's. There's corruption cases on the border. I mean, think about this. You get somebody offers you 15 grand to do this next. I don't know if you're broke. You know what I mean? So not saying everybody's dirty, but I'm saying that's why that was my story. And they believed it because why else would they keep me in? So when I did that story about going to Canada, I said, hey, does your guy. Do you still have your people at the checkpoint or at the port of entry now? They fell through. I said, I'm not letting my truck drivers do it. I said, but I've been being hounded. We just want to meet them. And I'm like, what if they come here and we just meet and we help this because we want to make sure nothing's getting ripped and all that stuff. And they're like, yeah, man, that'd be awesome. So that's what we started laying out now. Scott Town jumps on. And Scott Town, I even look at him and I'm like, dude, why are you doing it? Doing this?

[Theo]

What?

[Scott Payne]

You told me not. There's a strong argument to be made that the reason he did that is because he liked me so much.

[Theo]

No way.

[Scott Payne]

Because he.

[Theo]

So you kind of let him into it, even just by being buddies.

[Scott Payne]

It's not an entrapment thing. But it's like, if you ask him, he's probably going to say something like this, I didn't want to do it, and I was suspicious, but he knew Joe Dogs and the other people involved could screw it up really bad. And if I got hurt and he wasn't there, he'd never Forgive himself. You see what I'm saying?

[Theo]

Y' all were close, huh?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, tight. Real tight. But so there's a point in the case, and I'm. I'm bouncing his daughter on my knee. His daughter's one. My youngest daughter's one. So they kind of are making the same noises and moving the same, but I'm not at home with my daughter. I'm there with his. And you know, you're looking. I know the training. I know I put the training on, but I'm looking over, going, man, I love this guy. I mean, he's. I mean, yeah, I mean, if he does criminal stuff, okay. But I mean, we think the same. He likes to do this, I like to do, we work out, fight, ride, all that stuff, man. And do you miss him? Yeah. Yeah.

[Theo]

You still keep in touch with him?

[Scott Payne]

Maybe. Maybe now after. After all this came out? Yeah, it's. It's pretty amazing, actually. I've also been trolled by people we put in jail, too. It's pretty funny. But maybe I'll end it on that. But. So I'm looking at the refrigerator, and I'm thinking all these thoughts, and I'm like, man, I'm looking at the refrigerator, he's got all kinds of stickers and magnets and stuff. And I saw one that's said wwsd. Now, if you're in the Christian faith, you see WWJD a lot. What would Jesus do? What would Jesus do? Wristbands and stuff. And I looked over, I go, wwsd. And I looked and it said, what would Satan do? And I went, oh, no, he's different. He's different. But it was just like a tough guy thing. And then.

[Theo]

So he wasn't a real Satanist?

[Scott Payne]

No, no, he was just this.

[Theo]

Just bolstering, just joking around with magnets.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, but. But that was like, oh, no, we're not the same. You're going to jail. But I.

[Theo]

But is that weird, man, to be hanging out with somebody and always thinking back your head, they're going to go to jail? Yeah, if this sounds like a fucking power trip.

[Scott Payne]

No, actually, it could be. It could give you some stress. It could give you some ptsd. You start getting anxiety because you're sitting there going, okay, you're. You're fearing the end of the case. You're fearing them finding out who you are. You're fearing this relationship that you built. And I know there'll be plenty of, maybe law enforcement or even people on the case be like, I can't believe you Talking like that. Look, man, I'm human. I love that guy.

[Theo]

Yes. Well, would it be. Ever be weird, like if you were leaving a room together or something and like, you wouldn't want to walk out first? That would be my fear all the time. I'd always be like, I got to walk behind because I don't want to. You know, I'm saying, what if they know something or they're leading me somewhere?

[Scott Payne]

Well, I'll say this. A lot of cops. A lot of cops sit in a restaurant. They keep their back to the wall.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Because you want to see everything. Yeah. When you're undercover, can you do that? I mean, can I come in there and hug the wall with my back the whole way through, or do I just got to look like I'm a normal person?

[Theo]

People would catch on.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So you don't want to look. You don't want to raise suspicion.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

So the case is going and we get to the point where we're going to do the drug deal. Got everything lined up. Months and months and months. Scott's in. There's some outlaws from brockton that are in it. There are some outlaws from taunton that are in it. And you know, you asked 1 percenter, are they all criminals? I mean, you look at the brock and chapter. Let's say most of them had day jobs. Maybe they bent, maybe they did time, maybe they didn't. But you go to the taunton chapter, and out of like 13, 13 at 15 outlaws, one and a half had a job. I say half because that guy was a tattoo artist and a piercer. But I don't think he worked, you know, nine to five.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Seven days a week. It was more like a part time thing. The other guy had a towing company. Everybody else was a straight thug. All criminal activity and make money, whether it's robbing, home invasion, carjacking, theft, dope, you know.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

So I would do the dope. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd probably do that. Every car theft for sure.

[Theo]

But I don't even like driving at night that much.

[Scott Payne]

Really.

[Theo]

I don't love it. So we get anyway going.

[Scott Payne]

We get to the night before, We've lined everything up, and the assistant United states attorney is like, hey, they're talking about. Are they talking about this in the clubhouse? You know, kind of thing about this drug deal that we're getting ready to do and all this? I said, yeah, I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about it. Hey, you know, and from an. From an investigative or evidence standpoint, it would Be good to have. Because if they're talking about that planning and all that, that'll help with, like, asset forfeiture and getting search warrants for the. For the property and stuff.

[Theo]

So just having recordings of them talking about.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, yeah. So I go to the ha. I go to the clubhouse. Joe Dogs tells me to come over. It's the night before. We're going to do the big drug deal. They don't know it, but we've got 50 kilos of real cocaine and we got a thousand pounds of real weed. Let's go. And we're gonna have to move it from one truck to another. Now. Snipers are up on the roof. I mean, we got SWAT all in the hotel. I mean, I literally did like the TV thing where you walk in and you can't see nothing. Cause the projector's on your face. And they're like, this is the guy that's going to be the undercover, you know? And I'm like, yeah, I look a lot like the other dudes. Don't shoot me. Just tell me. I'll be real still, man, you know?

[Theo]

Yeah. I mean, I'd be like, I'm the guy wearing, like the. I would wear like a special neck brace or like a. Maybe like a John Elway jersey or something. Yeah, something to stand out. Dude. I would wear like a. Yeah, like a Mason Crosby jersey. I would wear something that, like, do not shoot this.

[Scott Payne]

The crash test dummy. Full jumpsuit, you know, bright with reflections on it.

[Theo]

Yeah, yeah, like a suicide boy shirt. Or maybe not that. That might not happen. Help. That might not help.

[Scott Payne]

So. So I remember. Here's a funny one, Joe Dogs. I said, hey, man, we got to be nonchalant. We're going to be out here doing all this stuff. I was like, hey, wear. Wear something that doesn't attract a lot of attention. Yeah, yeah. Not the way he dressed. You walk out there with a shirt that says F that. Oh, yeah, in all caps. And I'm like, that's low key.

[Theo]

All right, well, I mean, who knows what he sold her before that?

[Scott Payne]

I know, right? So. So it's the night before I get there, and they're having church. They're still having church. I'm banging on the door, and it's weird, man. Nobody's coming. And all of a sudden, Joe Dogs does that, you know, like, hey, we're not ready yet. I'm like, well, why'd you call me over here? Yeah, I'm not thinking nothing. I go. He tells me to take a probate, which would be somebody on probation or they call them prospects. You're not a full patch member yet. You're. You've advanced from hangaround status. You're trying to become a full patch member. So he says, hey, take probate, Obi. Y' all go get something to eat. So we went down to the restaurant, got a couple of drinks, something came back, and I go into the clubhouse. And when I go in the clubhouse, I've been in that thing, like, umpteen. I don't know. There's one door I'd never been in. Now, for the listeners that may not know, at least with this chapter, if you weren't a patch member, which I wasn't, you're not allowed to touch the door, you're not allowed to touch the phone, but they're giving you drinks for free, right? I had been asked and actually been told that I need to become an outlaw. But I painted it as like, I travel all over the country, man. I can't have that, right? That bullseye on my back, you know, But I'm very humbled by it kind of thing. But so I go in there, and at this point in the case, it's been a year and a half. I'm a year and a half in, and my closest relationship is Scott Town. My second closest relationship is at point is the Enforcer, who goes by. Who went by the street name Clothesline. His real name is Brian De la Vega. So that was my second closest relationship. My third closest was the President Joe Dogs. And then it just trickled down from there. But by this time, I've been all over the country. I've been to Sturgis, I've been to, you know, Daytona, wherever, riding all over the place. So I've met outlaws all over. Actually, I've met outlaws from all over the world. And they were actually recruiting myself in Scott Town because I was bigger than two. But it's. Boston's a little weird because Boston and North is Hell's angel territory. Boston and south was outlaws territory, and they were arch rivals. And then you get to Cape Cod, and Hell's Angels had a chapter there.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

So the Outlaws were looking to set up a chapter in Cape Cod, but they wanted to fill it with big, strong dudes that can handle themselves.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Scott Payne]

And they were recruiting. Recruiting us for that, you know. So I go into the clubhouse, door shuts behind me. Deadbolts, steel frame door.

[Theo]

They had a door you'd never been in?

[Scott Payne]

No, no. This. Is. This. Is this the entry door?

[Theo]

Got it. Right.

[Scott Payne]

So if you, if you get inside, you'll see that they've welded metal hooks to the steel frame of the door and put a steel bar across it. So that's going to. From a breacher standpoint, it's going to be a little harder to be tougher to breach.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

So I'm in there, I'm having some drinks, and I'd been there, like I said, maybe 20 times. Who knows? There's one door I'd never been in and clothesline. My second closest friend says he signed a friend, right? Friend. He liked Scott Calloway. I don't think he likes Scott pains even much. But he says, hey, Tex, can I talk to you for a minute? Or he says, do you got a minute? Either can I talk to you for a minute or you got a minute? I'm like, yeah. So as I'm walking, he grabs an ashtray and a lighter and. Or he tells somebody to. And we turn in and it is a very tight stairwell. It's a very. To call it a basement down there is being very generous. More like a cellar. Got it. Crawl space. I couldn't stand up straight in it, but it's a northeastern home kind of split level. And as I'm walking in Chocolate Scott, another member comes in right behind. Yeah, Chocolate Scott. Yeah, they call him Chocolate Scott or, or. Or Black Scott. But the thing is, is he looked like a black guy in which you can't be in the Outlaws. Oh, yeah, you can't be.

[Theo]

I guess I was assuming.

[Scott Payne]

No, he said, he said he was

[Theo]

semi looked like he said he said

[Scott Payne]

he was Indians, but they named him Chocolate Scott. Oh, yeah, that would be my name. Yeah. So I, I follow. As soon as I turn in behind clothesline and Chocolate Scott comes in right behind me, I know something's not right. And now it's really tight. And you get down there. It was a little bit of a false start because there was something down there that, that another member veg did not want me to see. And they come down. So going down those steps, I'm already getting an adrenaline dump like I was talking about earlier, right? We come back up. I'm not free to leave outlaws everywhere. They're hiding whatever they needed to hide. I'm not sure what it was, but then it's like, okay, let's go back down. So I get down there and so

[Theo]

they take you halfway down and take you back up.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, they take me down. It's terrible.

[Theo]

It's almost like you're surprised party, but then out, ready yeah, yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Because if Vegas walks down there, he's doing this. I see him doing a movement that's like, hey, get out. And I'm like, I don't know what's going on, but I'm looking, I'm looking for plastic on the floor. I saw a rope. And I'm like, oh, you saw a rope? Yeah, yeah, like. And I'm like, oh.

[Theo]

And you got to be thinking, I'm getting out of here.

[Scott Payne]

Then, no, I wasn't.

[Theo]

What do you think they were gonna do?

[Scott Payne]

I didn't know yet. But.

[Theo]

But even if you saw.

[Scott Payne]

Even if I tried to leave, I mean, think about it.

[Theo]

Like, if I see a rope at all, I never see a rope. Right.

[Scott Payne]

Because I'm 13 outlaws. But I'm. And they're. They got guns. They already showed me their guns.

[Theo]

Oh, got it.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So I'm basically a gunpoint, you know? Okay, So I go back up and we walk back down and that's when we get down there. And Clothesline says, hey, there's a lot of going on. It's my job to take care of my brothers. Because he's the enforcer. And he says, I need you to take all your clothes off, Everything, boots and everything.

[Theo]

And would give them boots or sneakers.

[Scott Payne]

I had boots. And he said, I need you to write down your full name, your date of birth, your address, your wife's name. Because I'm not going to ask for your kids names, even though I can find them out if I need to. And he goes, everything, Social Security, everything. I said, okay, but you can hear my voice already because I'm having an adrenaline dump. My voice is higher, my throat's tighter. I'm hearing that. I'm hearing that underwater. Auditory exclusion. It's going wolf.

[Theo]

Wolf. Oh, I would be so scared.

[Scott Payne]

My time dilation, my eyes are clicking. Everything I'm hearing is going. I need you to write down your. That's what I'm hearing.

[Theo]

It's like one of those boxing video games when you're about to get knocked out or whatever and you're like, like. And it starts to get kind of blurry.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, yeah. So.

[Theo]

And did you write your real stuff on there?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. No, no, I didn't. I didn't. But I forgot my middle name because of this dress. I forgot my middle name was Andrew.

[Theo]

Did you just make one up?

[Scott Payne]

No, no, I should have. That have been a smart thing to do, but. But then again, maybe not if they're really going to run it. Yeah, right. So I'm like, I'm going, scott Calloway. Scott Calloway. Scott Callaway. And I guess Scott Joseph Calloway. And I like, nope, I'm going through this Rolodex in my head. It feels like it's eight minutes. It's a couple of seconds. And then I remembered my initials and I remembered, oh, I'm Scott Andrew Calloway. But what I did is like when we talked about shootings and stuff and officers not knowing that. That they did it, certain things. Same thing happened to me, but it was on a verbal thing. I would have never known I said this unless I didn't listen to the recording. Unless I listened to the recording. But while I'm forgetting my middle name, I turn and I go, and what else do you need? But it sounds like this because I'm. I'm freaking out.

[Theo]

All right.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. My addiction's terrible. Talking through my nose, higher pitch voice. And then I hear them yell, what do you need for that website? And I go, okay. Because I'm listening. I'm still listening even though I'm freaking out. I'm like, oh, okay. They're going to write this down. They're going to run me. They're going to Google me. And back then they had like a. Who's a rat Dot com you go to and run. See?

[Theo]

Were you on there?

[Scott Payne]

No. Now. But I said, okay, I'm feeling better.

[Theo]

Feet finder they had too.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, right. So then he says, and then I need you to take all your clothes off. Everything.

[Theo]

Damn. They want you on feet, he said.

[Scott Payne]

He says. He says, because I got to. Because I got to check you for a wire. Here's the issue, Theo. I was wired to the hill. I had two recording devices on me and a transmitter. And I won't say where.

[Theo]

What, but use a damn iPhone at that point.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, well, back then.

[Theo]

No, I mean, you were one.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. Yes. That you had on you. And back then that would've been like circa 2006.

[Theo]

Ish.

[Scott Payne]

7. Ish. They. They were big on next tails. So, you know. I know. Yeah. Great radio.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

But terrible to call somebody.

[Theo]

Yeah. Bring some milk on.

[Scott Payne]

I could key you up in Japan and it'd be like. It'd be like, what's up? Hey, you know, fine. But if I tried to call you, we couldn't hear nothing. I'm like, I don't know.

[Theo]

It sounded Japanese.

[Scott Payne]

I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about.

[Theo]

So. Damn. So they trying to strip search you.

[Scott Payne]

They did.

[Theo]

And when you wear underpants or boxers you think?

[Scott Payne]

Boxer briefs.

[Theo]

Nice.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. The comfort of a boxer, but the support of a brief.

[Theo]

Yeah, look, I got them on right now.

[Scott Payne]

I do, too. Pretty cool. And. And much like that night, they're not white, which I was happy.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah. If you'd have sold them up.

[Scott Payne]

Sold them up? Yeah.

[Theo]

You know what I'm saying? A little of that back bait chowder.

[Scott Payne]

I do. Well, I tell him. I say. I say.

[Theo]

So were you joking at this point? Are you scared?

[Scott Payne]

No, I was scared to death. I was scared. I joke about it now, but I was scared of that.

[Theo]

So you took your clothes off.

[Scott Payne]

So what I did is I took. I took my coat and it was cold because it was like November, so I probably had, like, more than one T shirt on. Took all that off. Took my boots off, and I dropped my underwear and jeans down to my ankles. I never kicked them off. So from the ankles up, I'm completely in the naked. They checked me for a wire. He missed one thing. That was. That was. I had in my sock. It was a device, but, you know, so I go. He passed me down, and I'm having adrenaline dump, right? Everything's slow motion. I can feel my heart beating. My. My man parts felt like they were in my throat, you know, And.

[Theo]

Are they calling you or anything? Are they calling you names and.

[Scott Payne]

No, no. But during the talk, there's. That's a good question. Because goes we. At least the way I was trained, you just don't want a vapor lock. You don't want to get the deer in the headlights looks. At least keep talking. At least keep trying to find something, right? Find a way out, get some information.

[Theo]

Guys, what's this about? What's the big.

[Scott Payne]

I did, I guess. Should I ask what's going on? And they're like, hey, man, this is some precautions. Blah, blah, blah. And what he says to me, he goes, trust me, man. He goes, I like you a lot. He goes, but I've got my doubts, too. He said, if somebody accused me of being a fed, I'd probably smash them in the effing mouth. And I said, I'm not. I looked at him, I said, I'm not happy. And he goes, I wouldn't be either. But what you can't see is because we know each other. Even though my words may be saying one thing, what my face is saying, the clothesline is, tell me I'm okay. Tell me I'm going to be all right. His facial expressions back to me were, it's okay. But I was, in fact, undercover. And I was wired. And if he found it, I don't know what's going to happen. So I pull my pants back up, I think I'm putting my boots on, and he grabs a piece of clothing and it had something in it. And he says, I'm not going to find anything in here. I don't want to. Like some pictures of my old lady. And he laughs and he goes. And I go, I hope not. Now I'm standing there, can't stand up straight. I'm on the wall and I'm watching him need this piece of clothing with his hands, he's doing this. And I know circa that year what our equipment was and all that stuff. If he would have felt it. Now he misses it. He looks right at it. He misses it. And even while he's searching it, I don't know, I do it. But you can hear me because I'm just standing there. And you can hear me go. Because I'm like, what am I gonna do? Right? So here's the thing. He misses it. He hands me back my stuff. I immediately go into joking because that's not only me. It's also a defense mechanism when you're scared.

[Theo]

Right. They juggle my whole life cracking, right?

[Scott Payne]

I'm cracking jokes like. Like I said, yeah, I'm glad I didn't wear white underwear.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

You know, and. And we go back into business and keep saying that. Glad I didn't wear white.

[Theo]

You just keep glitching, wear a pointer.

[Scott Payne]

And it's like, what the. What's wrong with him? He's a robot. Yeah, yeah.

[Theo]

Bring in Choco stain or whatever that guy's name was.

[Scott Payne]

Chocolate Scott.

[Theo]

Chocolate Scott.

[Scott Payne]

So people always ask me, what would you have said if Clothesline would have found it? And I said, well, I remember it like it was yesterday. It also helps that I teach it all over the place. And I still relive it all the dagum time. So there's really little error. Room for error there as far as exaggerating and stuff. So I. Or remembering it wrong. I. I said, man, I remember it like it was yesterday. Maybe my first response would have been, I don't know, some pictures. If he said, what is this? Maybe I would have said, I don't know, some pictures of yellow lady as a joke, because he already threw that line to me, you know, am I going to find anything in here? The only other thing that I had in my head. And again, I remember like, it's yesterday. I would have looked at him and said, the gig is up I'm an undercover FBI agent and we can. I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court or all hell is going to break loose. The problem is, is that would have been a bluff on my part because as far as I knew, every time I'd been in that clubhouse, my cover team couldn't hear me. Whether it's equipment, walls, whatever. I mean, it's 20, 26 and I've got first net and I can walk into a building and I can't get out, you know, And I'm like, I don't. So it's above my pay grade. But for as far as I knew, well, I mean, they had surveillance, you know, but. But as far as I knew, they can never hear me. That night at the end of the shift, you know, you go meet somewhere, predetermined location, and I'm turning over my recording equipment to the case team and whatever, maybe they're giving me more money for the next day or whatever, and they do a debrief. Well, when I got there that night, what I found out was, is that the first two guys covering me were part of the main case team. It was Sergeant Higginbottom from Massachusetts State Troopers. Everybody called him Higgy. And then Detective Cummings from Brockton pd and because they had known me for a year and a half or a little more, whatever happened at that first interaction with Joe Dogs at the door and made them think something was up and they had pulled close enough or whatever, they were able to hear everything. When they heard me getting stripped, of course they can hear that I'm scared because they know my voice, right? They're radio and back to Boston saying, hey, anybody, and they'll get down here. And as far as the way I was told is everybody was coming, blue lights and siren down there, and they didn't hit it. They went ahead and they had a plan because they've been in that clubhouse on, on other law enforcement activity, and they know how it's set up and they knew how that door was fortified. So their plan, they put their vest on everything. And their plan was if they felt like it was time to pull the trigger to save me or whatever, they were going to drive the van into the, the cinder block wall beside the door to kind of brace. Brace the wall.

[Theo]

So you're standing there, that's what you're thinking. If he, if he knows what's going on? Yeah, that's what. Those are your two plans of action. And they, and, and they're out there waiting on I mean, and your case team is out there listening. Is out there listening. And there's help on the way.

[Scott Payne]

Yes.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Scott Payne]

Because Clothesline didn't find it. And also because that case team, Higginbottom and Cummings, they knew me and they didn't pull the trigger. They were like, hang on, he's still okay. He's still okay.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

So we go out that night and. And it's me, Joe Dogs and Scott Town. And I am livid. I'm raising hell, you know? And even Joe Dogs is like, tex, you gotta understand, this has happened to other brothers, other people, where everybody shows up and it's just, you know, we're the only people there and everybody else isn't undercover, you know, And I played it off. I'm like. I'm like, who the hell would spend that kind of time and money and try to, you know.

[Theo]

Yeah, for sure.

[Scott Payne]

Besides us. You know, besides me. But I go back, I probably sleep maybe 30 minutes at night. I go and meet everybody. I think it was outside of ihop. I hand out the radios and I tell them where we're gonna go. And it's pretty comical on recording because I say, all right, we're going back up to the Westgate Mall in Brockton. And Chocolate Scott starts bitching. He goes, man, I live right next to there. I could have slept another 40 minutes.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah.

[Scott Payne]

And Joe Dogs happen. Joe Dog starts. He goes, you guys are the lazy. He goes, you guys, let me get it right. Yeah. He goes, you guys are the laziest bunch of damn criminals I've ever met in my entire life, you know? And I'll even bust in the Chocolate. Hey, I thought I left my wife at home. Can you stop complaining? You know, Chocolate Sky. Yeah, yeah. So we. We go, we do the deal. One truck pulls up.

[Theo]

It's fake drugs.

[Scott Payne]

No, it's real. Yeah, it's real drugs. So, I mean, they're. They're smelling the weed, you know.

[Theo]

Must have a good budget up there then.

[Scott Payne]

Well, I don't know where the case team got it. It might have. Is probably evidence from another case.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

And it gets signed out. But can you imagine if we lost that? FBI loses 50 kilos of cocaine. Are you kidding me? So, yeah, snipers are up and everything. So the trucks back up the undercovers. Joe Dogs on the truck, OB's on the truck. We're covering stuff. They're pulling surveillance, you know, and just like normal surveillance, I mean, they got people. I've been burnt. I've been burnt. There's a guy staring at me. Calm down, dude.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

You know, and if a cop shows up, let us know. We're going to pull the trucks away. And we pulled off the deal. And then I went and paid everybody.

[Theo]

So y' all did the deal?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, it went. It went across. They got to meet Manny. Joe Dogs wanted to meet Manny, who was, of course, was an undercover, but he is a Hispanic guy that did all kinds of cartel stuff.

[Theo]

Shout out Manny.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, shout out Manny, man. Martin Suarez. He's actually got a book out, too.

[Theo]

Oh, wow.

[Scott Payne]

They just. And it's. It's got to check out.

[Theo]

Martin Suarez.

[Scott Payne]

Martin Suarez.

[Theo]

You do the deal.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. And this is. We get it the next day, and like I said, we do the deal. And then that night, maybe I slept a little bit, you know, I'm gonna

[Theo]

need a massage after all.

[Scott Payne]

I know, right? And then I fly home and I'll get. I miss my flights. They're. They're delayed, canceled, whatever. And then I go home to. When I landed in McAllen, I would. Drove straight to the house. I brushed my teeth, changed my sug, loaded up my daughters, my wife, and my mother in law, and we went to the rio Grande Valley FBI Christmas party for Laredo, Brownsville, and McAllen offices. And I was Santa Claus for the kids after being stripped in the basement at gunpoint about two nights earlier. Yeah, yeah. So. And I don't stop. So what? So what happens if you fast forward a little bit? Now we're doing all this stuff. We're still getting more things. We got the big dope deal. I'm getting trust here. During that case, a president of the Hell's Angels was murdered. Riding down the road, we knew that it was a green truck with Florida plates. We knew that we had outlaws from Florida up there. And the case kept going. And eventually I end up down in Daytona at a world run. And by this point, I'm kind of a zombie because my M.O. always was. I'm a workaholic. I get it, honestly, from my parents. But my. My M.O. always was like, look, if I can be above average or if I can on the squad that I'm on as a case agent or if I can have some good cases and good sources, maybe that lets my management not be able to say no to me. Like, you know, hey, you're a top producer, Scott, so you can't say no. You can't go on that SWAT call out or that SWAT school or that undercover or that undercover school. But what I was doing to myself is I was Taking the warrior mentality, which I think is imperative for the line of work.

[Theo]

The warrior mentality?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, the war mentality, and I think that's imperative. But I was applying it to every situation in my life. So I was not taking days off because I didn't want management to get mad. I was not sleeping hardly at all. I got to the point to where I was drinking. I wasn't a big energy drink guy.

[Theo]

But you were huffing them up.

[Scott Payne]

Well, no, what it was is I was drinking like a pot of coffee and taking hydroxy cuts with ephedrine in them, and I was still falling asleep. So I get down to Daytona. We've got murders that have happened. We get. We've had Sturgis where I arrived and the day I arrived, the Hell's Angels shoot five outlaws, point blank range. It was. I think it was two patched, one probate.

[Theo]

In Sturgis that happened?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, in Sturgis. And then. And then to. To what they would refer to as old ladies. And it was some serious wounds, like people were paralyzed and stuff. It's just dangerous.

[Theo]

And put them on a gold wing.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, yeah. You know, hopefully they turned out okay, but. So they got all that going on, and now we're wind. We're kind of winding down towards the end of the case. So I didn't know you're still going. But I'm in Daytona. And again, by this time. Here's my cocktail. I woke up one morning, I could still feel the whiskey and eggs swishing in my belly. I felt like a piece of trap. I'm like, all right, this is it. I'm working out. So I did like an in room workout, something like a P90X kind of deal. I'm doing push ups, sit ups, squats, burpees, mountain climbers, and. But before I did that, by this time, I wake up, I take antihistamines, decongestants, hitting an inhaler, which is also a vascular dilator, makes you shake and stuff, opens up your lungs. Then I drank two cups of coffee, the strongest coffee I can possibly make, and then I hit three hydroxy cuts with ephedrine in them.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

So as I learned later on from the.

[Theo]

You're a damn jet ski.

[Scott Payne]

Well, from the. From what the doctors told me, they go, scott, that is a cocktail for an anxiety attack. And that's what happened. I started working out and all that hit me, and I was so beat down, like, I started hyperventilating. I mean, it's humid, it's Daytona, you know, But I'M in there, but whatever. I came up and I forgot all about combat breathing. I forgot about, you know, some people call it. Was it like four box breathing? Box breathing, same thing. You know, I forgot about a paper bag. I just. I turn as white as your shirt and an undercover knocks on the door. He was the guy that was playing the truck driver. And it just. He sees me and I'm just pouring sweat out of every pore. Why does your shirt. My lips are all tight. And he's like, are you okay? And I'm like, I don't think so. So we start talking, what I should have done. I said, I don't feel good. I think I'm heading home. But I didn't. I took a nap. I got up self medicated, went back out with the Outlaws, Mongols were there, fights breaking out, all kinds of stuff. And. But when I flew home from that trip, I didn't know it, but my body was already done. They wanted to expand the case because the guy that was now went by the road name Hillbilly, who I knew through the case, and he liked me and I liked him. He was the Southeast regional president at that point. And they, and they wanted me to come down to. They wanted the Boston not to take the case down and for me to move to Florida and patch under Hillbilly.

[Theo]

Dude, I don't care if you meet damn. Sam Elliott from Mask, bro.

[Scott Payne]

You guys love that role. Dude, I've always loved him as a biker better than anything else, but damn,

[Theo]

man, to keep pushing yourself out there like that.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, well, I wasn't smart. And I mean, I lied.

[Theo]

And I'm not judging you, man.

[Scott Payne]

No, I'm just saying I lied to safeguard. Like, I took the psychological test and I lied. I knew I was exhausted. I knew I didn't know how to

[Theo]

relax anymore even, because it's almost like I'm reading the story and it's like, you know, it's like, oh, man, it's. It's just. That's harrowing. And it reminds me of times that I think a lot of us and probably a lot of listeners can relate to when they just, you know, just this thing. I got to keep going.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

And at what cost?

[Scott Payne]

Doesn't matter what you. You could be a doctor. You could be whatever.

[Theo]

Yes, for sure. That's what I'm saying.

[Scott Payne]

You can put. Yeah, you can. You can. You can wear yourself out. So what happens is I go home, I sleep the first day, I probably slept 20 hours.

[Theo]

Amen.

[Scott Payne]

I wasn't depressed. I wasn't sick. I know what they both feel like. For the rest of the week,

[Theo]

I

[Scott Payne]

slept over 16 hours a day. So come Friday, A, I. I still love this guy. I don't think he loves me anymore. It is what it is. But we were friends at that point. And he calls me and my again, Country. He's like. He goes, how you doing, Country? And that was all he said. And I said, I'm not doing too good. So for the next hour, we talk on the phone. I'm explaining to him everything's going on. And he basically let me convince myself. Myself, I need to call Safeguard. So I called, and I knew one of the psychologists personally, and I called and I said, hey, I don't know what's going on, man. I'm 30 something years old. I'm. I'm crashing. I don't know what's happening. So they came out and did a. On site. In other words, I didn't have to fly to them. They flew to me. They did the test. I answered it honestly.

[Theo]

Amen.

[Scott Payne]

And I got put on timeout. But what they did is they said, and by time out, I mean no more under cover for at least six months. But what they did is they said, hey, for the purpose for this case specifically, we'll let you stay on the phone. So I make a ruse. I'd already told him that I'd gotten married, so I'd make up a story that, hey, me and my wife are getting divorced. Her family's in El Paso. I got to re. I got to get this house finished. I got to relocate her and the kids out there because I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror again if I didn't got it. And you got.

[Theo]

Got.

[Scott Payne]

You got father Scott Towns, a loving father, four daughter. You got. You know, they're like. They all. They're like, oh, yeah. Oh, we got it, man. I said, but as soon as I get them there, I'm coming north. I'm sick of this heat.

[Theo]

Amen.

[Scott Payne]

So we just kept talking. And during that, there was one other guy that we didn't get, but he was calling me, and he was like, he just got out of prison recently, and he was an outlaw. And he's like, hey, man, I heard about, you know, we'd met before Scott Town introduced us, but he's like, I got a Hummer. I got this $100,000 BMW I need to get rid of. And he starts talking about cocaine. And he's like, hey, you know what kind of business I'm in. I said, I can maybe take a guess. And he goes, I'm into that magic powder. And I said, the white? He said, yeah.

[Theo]

Oh, cocaine, yeah.

[Scott Payne]

And he said, yeah. And he says, how much can you get me basically a kilo for? And I said, and he said, if you can get me a kilo at 18 a piece, I got enough to buy 10 right now. He had 180 grand ready to go. And of course, I call the case team, and I go, do you guys want me to pursue this?

[Theo]

And they said, this is your friend, though, right?

[Scott Payne]

Well, this guy I met, he wasn't like Cliff Scott. Town introduced me to him. His name was Tim Sylvia. Not UFC Tim Sylvia, but. Yeah, but who is a friend but Tim Sylvia, the outlaw. And so what happens is I broker the deal for my truck driver and another undercover who always just. They didn't always. But about half of the case, he would sit in the passenger seat and they go like, I'm literally in my garage in McAllen, and I'm on the phone with Tim, Sylvie. And I'm on the phone with him. I'm going, he's over here. And I'm guiding them in to meet each other. Well, when they meet each other, you can hear the other other covers talking. Even if you see the recording from the back of the semi truck, you can even hear me on the phone. They're calling. The truck driver calls me. He's like, text like, hey, what's going on, man? We're calling him Tony. Hey, Tony, man. He's like, yeah. He goes, I'm here. And he goes, I'm with. He goes, what's your name again? Tim Silly goes, telling me it's Big Timmy. I go, okay. And he says, they're going back and forth. He goes, he wants to talk to you. So Tim gets on the phone and I say, hey, you got the same vehicles? Yeah. I'd agreed to pay him 21 grand for the vehicles that I was buying from him stolen. And he says. I said, when are you going to report the BMW stolen? Because I had a tracker on. He said, Friday. I said, can you make it Saturday? I'm just trying to make it real, right? I said, can you make it Saturday? Give me one more day, and it'll be in Mexico for sure. And he said, absolutely. So then I get back on the phone with the undercover, and the undercover says, how much am I supposed to pay him? I said, 21 grand. So when they go to load the vehicles on the stolen vehicles onto the truck, Tim hits them and says, can you guys get 10 kilos at 18 apiece? And they said yes. And that's how we ended the case. I was drawing up diagrams of all the clubhouses and houses I'd been in for all the SWAT teams that were going to be hitting it and stuff, which was nerve wracking to me because I'm a tactical guy and I'm like, well, what if I get this wrong and somebody gets hurt? And then also my Scott and myself with another guy had. We're creating our own motorcycle club called the Righteous Few. It had already been approved by the president, the national president of the Outlaws, to be the number one support club for the Outlaws in the Northeast. All I had to do was go back up one more time and I'd have got my cut. But, you know, it is what it is.

[Theo]

Yeah, you were also. You were.

[Scott Payne]

I was done. Yeah, I was done.

[Theo]

We're even being real. It would have been cool.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. You know, ego wise.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah, for sure. But damn, bro. So this whole thing's insane.

[Scott Payne]

So we're taking down the case. I'm actually at an undercover school teaching. I wasn't there. I'm pretty sure Safeguard said I couldn't go.

[Theo]

And this one, you're just doing stuff on the phone still. Okay. Yeah. And how do we get to the end?

[Scott Payne]

This is it.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Scott Payne]

Because they said they were going to deliver the 10 kilos. That's going to be a reversal, and that's going to be the first arrest. Right. So when they show up, when Tim Sylvia shows up to deliver the Hummer and to get whatever SWAT team is going to take him down, Right. He's got the money and all this stuff. SWAT team is going to take him down. And that starts all the arrest happening. So I can't tell you what time it was in Nevada, where I was at, versus what time it was, I don't know, about three hours behind or whatever from Massachusetts. But I go back to my room and these are long nights at the UC school, like I told you. I go back to my room and my phone's chirping and I listen and it's a message from Scott Town. And I chirp him up and I go, hey, what's up? And he says he's all raspy boys. He goes, hey, I just want you to know somebody just called me. Your truck drivers, Tony and that other dude and Big Scotty, Big T, Big Timmy, they got locked up. And I'm like, okay. And he goes, I just wanted to let you know. And I Said, well, you know, they're not up there for something for me. I said, but sometimes they do things on the side for themselves. He said, listen, I'm gonna go to something defective like this. He said, listen, I'm gonna go to. I'm gonna get up, I'm gonna get showered up, and I'm gonna find out what's going on. I'm gonna call you back. And I said, okay. And our last words to each other, he said, I love you, brother. And I said, I love you, too. And about 40 minutes later, a SWAT team hit his house and he went to prison. They all pled guilty.

[Theo]

You ever talked to him again?

[Scott Payne]

It's very possible. I can either confirm or deny, but since. Since. Since the New York Times bestseller and being on a podcast or two. Yeah, The bond was real.

[Theo]

The bond was real.

[Scott Payne]

Was real.

[Theo]

Like, how happy is the ending? Like, I'm just wonder, like, it's pretty good so far. Is it?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, pretty good. Yeah, really good.

[Theo]

So you guys can still communicate often?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Like, in what type of manner you feel like,

[Scott Payne]

call me, whatever. I will tell you that Chocolate Scott started troubling me, and he'll probably get a kick out of this.

[Theo]

He did?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, he started. All of a sudden, you know how somebody finds you on Instagram and they start liking all your stuff, and it's like, from six months prior, but you start getting all these dings. Ding, ding, ding. Like, they liked your real. Like, they're. Well, it was like, this guy sucks. Screw you.

[Theo]

Oh, Chocolate Scott. Yeah, Chocolate Scott's like that.

[Scott Payne]

So he said.

[Theo]

So he put Chocolate Scott's beat Chocolate Scott. So I almost wish I knew him, actually.

[Scott Payne]

So here's the thing. He's like. He's, like, hitting me with, like, yeah, you suck. You F this. You know, this and the other. And I saw it, and it was like, I could kind of see the picture, but I saw that it was doom666. And I'm like, who the hell is it? I don't respond to negative stuff. But I'm like. Because most of the time you're arguing with an algorithm anyway. It's some AI you're arguing against. It's not even a real person. Yeah. But I click on it and I open it up, and it's Chocolate Sky. And for his Instagram, it says, fu Scott Payne, you big.

[Theo]

So he really. But he's got a right to be pissed.

[Scott Payne]

I know. I know, man. But I could. I giggled because I could totally see him high, laughing, typing that stuff, you know? But the last thing he put out there that. That before I blocked him, is he put. He actually validated me because a lot of people are like, oh, you're making this up. I'm like, dude, pull. Pull the court records. Pull the reports. It's in there. The recordings that happen. I don't know. Jimmy, tell you I'm not making it up. It's there. But he put. He put. He would go, he found another one. And he goes, I've seen this guy naked in the basement. Not much there. All right. So I so wanted to respond because the first thing I was going to say is you're still picturing me naked in the basement from 2006.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Must have been tough in prison. Second thing I would have said is I don't find you or clothesline attractive. The third thing I would have said is it was very, very cold in that basement.

[Theo]

It's in Massachusetts.

[Scott Payne]

And the fourth thing I would have said is I thought I was getting ready to die. And that's a whole new level of shrinkage. The last thing I was concerned about is what I look like naked, sir.

[Theo]

Oh, I can't even stay erect around damn broken glass. You know, I hear a window shatter, dude, I won't get hard for a month. That's just who I am. My dad was the same way.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Did Towns go to jail?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. Yeah, we pretty much. We pretty much dismantled the whole Taunton chapter. I don't know if it's back up, but yeah, we pretty much got everybody.

[Theo]

Seen him since he went in? Nope.

[Scott Payne]

No.

[Theo]

How long will he be in for?

[Scott Payne]

He's out.

[Theo]

Oh, he's out now?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, he's out.

[Theo]

She haven't seen him since he got out either. Okay, got it.

[Scott Payne]

No.

[Theo]

How long has he been out for?

[Scott Payne]

I don't know. I don't know if he did six or eight. And let's just say I think we arrested. I think we took that case down in 2008.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Scott Payne]

But let's see if it says the

[Theo]

Outlaws MC Taunton chapter is no longer active, having been effectively dismantled following a major federal sweep.

[Scott Payne]

Woohoo.

[Theo]

There you go. Do you have to miss a lot of things? Yeah, like a lot of family stuff.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

You missed a lot of, like, birthdays.

[Scott Payne]

I did pretty good with that, but I missed like some recitals and stuff like that. Or Father's Day, you know, because it might be putting on the undercover school. It might be being on the. On the case. Because like I said, you kind of go where the case takes you. If you get an Opening to go to Sturgis with the. I mean. Yeah, that's.

[Theo]

Yeah. No, I mean, it's all. It's just so. It's so fascinating, you know, because life itself, you're kind of. We're all trying to be ourselves and. And then to go into life and then go into another life kind of, you know, like an other exist, you know, like.

[Scott Payne]

Like, yeah, my. My big. My big. I guess my. My. Clark Kent walking into a phone booth and coming out of Superman is. I. I have a cross on my necklace. And before I would go undercover, I'd take the cross off, and it'd either be. It would either be a Norse, you know, like Thor's hammer, but for most of it, it was just a skull. But that was kind of my thing. Like, I'd go back in, I'd take the skull off, put the cross back on. It was kind of like me saying, Trying. Trying to leave it there. And now I'm scout again. But truthfully, the. The job creeped in all the time. I mean, how's it not going to. When I'm on an undercover call and my daughter's chasing me through the house, and I'm trying not to let her hear me cuss because I'm on the phone with a bad guy, you know?

[Theo]

Sure. Are you ever. Before you go, Scott, are you ever worried about somebody coming back from the past, something coming back to haunches?

[Scott Payne]

It could happen. Yeah. Yeah.

[Theo]

Retaliation.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. You know, I'm not trying to be a tough guy or nothing like that, but I do have a belief system, and for me, I mean, I wouldn't want any family members or anything like that to be in fear. Usually for me, your best defense is a good offense. That's me. Like, just being a uniformed cop, how many people in your town do you think you arrest in a year? And do you. I mean, they're not all like, felony chart. They back out.

[Theo]

That's a good point.

[Scott Payne]

So you.

[Theo]

You.

[Scott Payne]

How many times as a uniform cop do you go to the mall or to a movie theater, to the grocery store, and you run into people that you've. Like. It might have been somebody you had to fight.

[Theo]

Amen.

[Scott Payne]

You know, So I never thought about that. And I just. I just walk right up to him. That's me. I'd see him and I'd go, if they're. If they're eyeballing, I'm not even gonna let them plot. I'm just gonna go right up and go, good game. Hey, no, I'm gonna be like, brother, how are you doing? When did you get out? How's the family, man? Hey, are you clean right now? Are you good? How you doing? Listen, as long as you're on that up and, you know, the straight and narrow, on the right path, I'll help you. And I have. I've actually. People that I put in jail, that I infiltrated, put in jail, but. But they've taken a turn for the better. I. At their sentence, and I wrote an acknowledgment letter or a letter for their character.

[Theo]

Amen.

[Scott Payne]

So they. And they got probation instead of going to jail. So that's not. I mean, no, it's, you know, it's. If you get, for me, for the most part, what I've found, because I do really make friendships. I mean, you're creating relationships, but you're betraying them a little bit. I mean, you're going to be betraying them if you're undercover. Yeah, but it's almost like the old Bugs Bunny cartoon. You got the sheepdog and you got the coyote, and it's Ralph and Sam, and they clock in, in the morning, and all day the coyotes trying to steal a sheep, and all day the. The sheep dogs beating the crap I'm trying to get. And at the end of the day, they clock out. See you in the morning, Sam. See you in the morning, Ralph. It's just, you know, I. I've been told. I've been told this. If you were a biker and. And you were part of the club and you snitched, they'd never forgive me, but I was just doing my job. So you. You see that a lot, Professional snitch? No, I'm not snitched. I'm not. I'm. You know, I'm. I'm a bonded law enforcement officer, and we had reports of you doing criminal stuff, and I infiltrated you and. Or somebody did, and we found evidence of that criminal stuff. If you're not doing anything wrong, don't worry about it.

[Theo]

Yeah. Do. Do they ever. Oh, just. This is kind of like a question almost like the movies. Do they ever bring retired agents in for like, you know, they ever try and get you back out there for one more show?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, yeah. But you would be if you're a retired agent, because you're retired now. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you could come back in as a source. That's a. That's a whole different ball game, though.

[Theo]

But they're never like, scott, we got to wheel you out one more time here, you know, not now.

[Scott Payne]

I'm overt now.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

You know what I mean?

[Theo]

Oh, yeah. People know that.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, I know. You look like Matt Damon. You know what? As a matter of fact, the other day, somebody did. And as soon as they pulled up the picture, I went, dang. You know?

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Who would have thunk it? No. I mean, no. I mean, it could happen, but once I was done, I mean, obviously, I mean, you do Rolling Stone magazine and then this and. Yeah.

[Theo]

Would you do it again?

[Scott Payne]

Absolutely. Absolutely, man. But, you know. Okay. They always say, man, you'll know when it's time to retire. I thought I was going to work the 57. I thought I'd be the undercover coordinator for the state of Tennessee and maybe I could extend, you know, because that's a skill set that is that a lot of people don't have, you know, in the Bureau as opposed to being a tactical instructor. I mean, there's a lot of tactical instructors, but I thought I was going to say to 57, but after the base case, I was like, man, I had to get the back lumbar. I got a lumbar fusion. A week and a half after the lumbar fusion, I got Tammy talking about PVC pipes and everything else in my truck.

[Theo]

And you just start thinking, she loves to torture people.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, I know. I like torture. You like torture? I like torture. I love. You need somebody torture you call me. I swear. I know that. Torture. But the thing is, is I was 48 going on to 50. How many more? Oh, how many more bait? Like, I can't go. I mean, if. Okay, now I'm gonna look like a pedophile. Oh, there's an old dude buying beer for young boys and. And he's teaching them why it's right. No, I'm not. But how can I infiltrate 17 year olds?

[Theo]

Right?

[Scott Payne]

You know, and you just start realizing. Just one day it hit me, and it was right after the base case. It was in February. We took it down. January of 2020. February of 2020. I'm in Phoenix, Arizona. We're putting on training. We're training online coverage employees for domestic terrorism. And I don't know what we were discussing about. I don't know what it was. I know it was my birthday, but I just. This overwhelming feeling hit me in the face like a brick. I can't remember what we're talking about, but I remember, like, everything just kind of going calming down and me saying this in my head. I'm satisfied with my career. Never said it before. Not saying I've done everything, but if I do something now? I'm just starting right back over. I'm like. Like, I think, holy cow.

[Theo]

I'm okay.

[Scott Payne]

I think I'm okay.

[Theo]

Amen.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Well, Scott Payne, man.

[Scott Payne]

Boom. Big country, medium country.

[Theo]

Thank you so much for coming in, man. Code name Pale Horse. That's his book. How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis.

[Scott Payne]

And the. I was gonna say. And the paperback's out now. Sorry.

[Theo]

Oh, nice. And the paperback is out now.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. True.

[Theo]

Thank you so much for. For being here today with us, man. Thanks for sharing your stories. Yeah, dude. What a fascinating existence you've had so far, man. We appreciate your time, brother. Thank you so much. Give our best to your family, man, and we'll do.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Scott Pain. Thank you, bro.

[Scott Payne]

Thank you, man. Cornerstone. Oh. But when I reach that ground, I'll share this piece of my life out. I can feel it in my bones. But it's gonna take a little.