E540 Sen. JD Vance

Summary

Podcast Summary: This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von – Episode E540 Sen. JD Vance

Host: Theo Von
Guest: Senator J.D. Vance
Release Date: October 21, 2024

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1. Introduction and Guest Background

Theo Von welcomes Senator J.D. Vance, introducing him as a Yale graduate, Marine, author of "Hillbilly Elegy," and the current Republican vice-presidential candidate. Von expresses excitement to discuss pressing issues and understand Vance's perspectives beyond politics.

Notable Quote:

Theo Von [02:05]: "Today's guest is a senator from the state of Ohio... I'm really grateful to spend time with him today to discuss some issues and get to know him."

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2. Sports and Personal Connections

The conversation kicks off with a discussion about football, specifically Lambeau Field and the Ohio State-Michigan rivalry. Vance shares anecdotes about attending games with his family, highlighting the emotional toll sports can take, especially on children.

Notable Quotes:

J.D. Vance [03:08]: "Ron Johnson... a political rite of passage because... Wisconsin is a big battleground state."

Theo Von [07:52]: "When they cry when your team wins, that means something is probably... you have parenting issues in your home."

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3. Personal Stories of Addiction and Recovery

Vance delves into his personal life, discussing his mother's battle with addiction and her journey to sobriety. He reflects on the complexities of supporting a loved one through recovery and the profound impact it has had on his family dynamics.

Notable Quotes:

J.D. Vance [21:24]: "It's amazing... if God wants me to be vice president, I'll be vice president. If not, then I won't."

Theo Von [22:24]: "It was almost like a wedding in Appalachia... some guy selling a boat at one of them."

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4. The Opioid and Fentanyl Crisis

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the opioid epidemic, tracing its roots to overprescription and the rise of fentanyl. Vance criticizes pharmaceutical companies, particularly the Sackler family and Purdue Pharma, for their role in exacerbating the crisis. He emphasizes the need for stricter regulations and a military response to combat drug cartels trafficking fentanyl into the U.S.

Notable Quotes:

J.D. Vance [30:15]: "The Chinese are making [fentanyl]... drug cartels are like the wholesalers."

Theo Von [36:37]: "It's so messed up now that... that's what makes the rivalry now."

J.D. Vance [36:34]: "Fentanyl laced drugs are killing people... it's an unbelievable crisis."

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5. Health Care System and Price Transparency

Vance and Von tackle the exorbitant costs of the U.S. healthcare system. They discuss the lack of price transparency, resulting in unexpected medical bills that burden families. Vance advocates for policies that mandate transparency to ensure affordability and accessibility.

Notable Quotes:

Theo Von [86:10]: "We pay way more than them. And it's part of it, it's health."

J.D. Vance [87:22]: "Pharmaceutical companies don't want transparency because if Americans realized how much more we're paying, there would be a revolution."

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6. Influence of Lobbyists in Politics

The conversation shifts to the pervasive influence of lobbyists in Washington, D.C. Vance critiques the current system where lobbyists hold significant sway over legislation, often prioritizing corporate interests over the public good. He proposes empowering senators with larger, more effective staffs to counteract lobbyist pressure and ensure genuine representation.

Notable Quotes:

J.D. Vance [100:39]: "We need to empower senators to hire bigger staffs... to make sure lobbyists don't have much influence."

Theo Von [102:04]: "They're always wearing poorly fitted suits with extremely ugly ties... they're definitely lobbyists."

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7. Election Dynamics and Polling Reliability

Vance discusses the challenges of relying on traditional polling methods, citing their declining accuracy due to lower response rates and biased samples. He emphasizes the importance of grassroots campaigning and direct voter engagement over trusting flawed polls.

Notable Quotes:

J.D. Vance [109:44]: "Polls are bad because Trump voters are less likely to answer, making them inaccurate."

Theo Von [113:07]: "If you have something happen on social media, it goes viral in minutes and people attack you instantly."

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8. Personal Reflections and Future Aspirations

Towards the end of the episode, Vance reflects on his personal growth, the resilience he developed through military service, and his commitment to public service. He expresses dedication to addressing major national issues and his focus on winning the current election to implement meaningful change.

Notable Quotes:

J.D. Vance [116:56]: "We've got to stop punishing people like Bobby Kennedy for saying, well, maybe this doesn't work."

Theo Von [120:54]: "Save [e-mail] the site for details."

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Conclusion

Senator J.D. Vance provides a candid and comprehensive look into his personal experiences with addiction in his family, his perspectives on the opioid crisis, healthcare affordability, and the entrenched influence of lobbyists in politics. Throughout the episode, Vance emphasizes the need for systemic reforms and personal responsibility, advocating for policies that prioritize the well-being of American families over corporate profits. Theo Von facilitates a thought-provoking conversation, allowing listeners to gain valuable insights into Vance's motivations and vision for the future.

Final Notable Quote:

J.D. Vance [121:01]: "If Kamala Harris is the president for the next four years, we have four more years of open borders... I really do worry that the country's in a very, very bad spot."

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This episode offers an in-depth exploration of critical societal issues through the lens of a prominent political figure, making it a must-listen for those interested in the intersection of personal narrative and national policy.

Transcript

[J.D. Vance]

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will.

[Theo Von]

Be done well, from roof repair to emergency plumbing and more done well. So the next time you have a.

[J.D. Vance]

Home project, leave it to the pros.

[Theo Von]

Get [e-mail] we have some upcoming tour dates there in Colorado Springs in Colorado, Casper, Wyoming, Billings, Montana and Missoula, Montana Bloomington, Indiana, Columbus, Ohio, Champaign, Illinois. Over there in a fighting Illini area, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Lafayette, Louisiana and Beaumont, Texas. You can get all your [e-mail] TOR and thank you so much for the support. I want to start by saying that we have reached out to Governor Walz and Vice President Harris and we would love to have them in studio as well. Today's guest is a senator from the state of Ohio. He's currently on the Republican ticket for vice president. He's a Yale graduate. He's a Marine. He's an author. He wrote the book Hillbilly Elegy. I've read about half of it and I'm really grateful to spend time with him today to discuss some issues and get to know him. Today's guest is Mr. J.D. vance. But then it starts to become more interesting. Like the last woman we had on like trains, cats around the country, really, with a traveling cat circus. Yeah. So that's who you're following up, you know, just so.

[J.D. Vance]

That's way more interesting than a politician, man.

[Theo Von]

It's just so you know where you are, you know, Mr. Vance and the hot. And then call me, please.

[J.D. Vance]

Call me J.D. please. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Just so you know where you are, J.D. in the existence of things. J.D. vance, thanks for coming in today, man.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, man, it's good to be here.

[Theo Von]

I really appreciate it. I just went to, oh, I just went to Lambeau Field the other day. You ever been there?

[J.D. Vance]

I don't think I ever have been to Lambeau Field, but I think I'm going to Lambeau Field tomorrow.

[Theo Von]

Nuh.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I mean, running for vice president, you never know where you are day to day. But I'm pretty sure we're going to the packers game tomorrow.

[Theo Von]

Wow. Yeah, dude, it was.

[J.D. Vance]

So did you have fun?

[Theo Von]

It's amazing. Yeah, we, we just went. I had a show there the night on a Saturday night last Saturday. So we just got to go do a tour.

[J.D. Vance]

Okay.

[Theo Von]

But yeah, it's just so wild. You drive into this, you know, it's a small city.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

And you're like, wait, there's an NFL team here. It doesn't make sense. Really?

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. Like the NFL team in some ways. Right? I mean, the packers are so popular. But, no, I'm looking forward to going. I mean, it's kind of like a political rite of passage because, like, I have a guy serving the Senate, Ron Johnson, really good dude.

[Theo Von]

He's a senator. He's a senator from Wisconsin.

[J.D. Vance]

From Wisconsin. And he's just talking about, like, you know, you go to. You do the tailgate thing at Lambeau Field if you're running for office in Wisconsin. And Wisconsin is, like, a big battleground state.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

So I'm gonna go and check it out. We're bringing our kids with us, actually, which I don't know what we're gonna do with our kids because they're seven, four, and two. I don't think they're gonna be that into a tailgate. Fill in with cheese, dude.

[Theo Von]

You know?

[J.D. Vance]

So, yeah, maybe my wife will take them somewhere and I'll go, like, have fun at the tailgate. But I'm looking forward to it because I'm a pretty big football fan.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

Lambo Field is like, you know.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. When we saw. Oh, I didn't know what to do. When we saw it, I didn't know. Yeah. Like. And there was some kids were crying and stuff, and the parents were, like, kind of wiping their cheeks with cheese or whatever. But it was like. Yeah, it was really interesting.

[J.D. Vance]

But wait, they were crying because they were so excited to be at Lambeau Field.

[Theo Von]

They were crying.

[J.D. Vance]

So are you a big football guy?

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Okay, so I'm a big college football guy.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, I'm more of a college football guy, but I like both. So I'm an Ohio State guy. Went to Ohio State. You know, born and raised in Ohio. But, you know, there's, like, the Ohio State Michigan rivalry is one of the big, big rivalries. And this happens, of course, after the election. So I'm hoping to go to the game. But you talk about, like, a kid crying at a football field. This reminds me of a story. It was, like, one of my dear friends, and he's like, otherwise a nice guy, but Ohio State Michigan just turns into a. He turns into a total animal. So this is 2006. Who is he?

[Theo Von]

The senator you're talking about?

[J.D. Vance]

No, no, no. He's a totally different guy. A buddy I've known since I was, like, five years old.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[J.D. Vance]

Just a. Back home, we go to the Ohio State Michigan game. We're number one, they're number two. I think we win that game, like, 42, 39. It's a very, very tight game. I don't remember the exact score. And we're leaving, and there's this family, and this kid is like. It's a family of Michigan fans. And this kid is crying, and my buddy goes up to him and I'm like, oh, Bill's going to be sweet to this family. Welcome to Ohio. Glad you guys come to the game. Sorry it didn't work out. And my buddy goes, are you sad that Michigan lost? Little boy goes, yeah. And he says, well, maybe next time you won't root for a team that sucks. And I was like, oh, shit, Bill. We should try to be nicer to the new college. But then, like, you realize, wow, that's.

[Theo Von]

Actually not a concierge.

[J.D. Vance]

No, no. But that's why Ohio State and Michigan hate each other, Right? Because that kid was probably nine years old. So this is 2006. I mean, he's, I don't know, close to 25 now. He probably still remembers that asshole from Ohio State when he was crying after a game. And, like, that's what makes the rivalry now.

[Theo Von]

That's Tom Brady. Yeah, that's right.

[J.D. Vance]

Exactly.

[Theo Von]

That's how it gets started. Oh, dude. I remember the craziest thing I ever saw was there was a Mexican father and son bawling, crying when the Rock came back one night at wwe.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Standing there together, same height. That's a bawling crying.

[J.D. Vance]

And it was.

[Theo Von]

They both had belts on, and it was like, yeah, Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

I mean, those are. It's like the little rituals that actually make life worth it, man.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

But definitely. I mean, like, my son, he's seven now, but I took him to the Ohio State Michigan game. I think the last. I took him to the game last year, but then we watch it even when he's like 4 years old, and Michigan has beat Ohio State the last three years. And so it's just like, you know, the first time I ever saw my kid cry over sports event was last year at the Ohio State Michigan game.

[Theo Von]

When they beat him.

[J.D. Vance]

When. When. When Michigan beat Ohio State. Yeah. Oh.

[Theo Von]

When you cry when your team wins, that means something is probably. You have parenting issues in your home. I feel like, you know, that's right.

[J.D. Vance]

That's definitely right. That's definitely right. But I mean, it's. It's like. I mean, Ohio State just lost Oregon a couple, you know, like a week ago, I guess, and you sort of realize, like, I get so much joy out of watching sports and, like, taking my son to the Ohio State Michigan Games like, one of the coolest moments of my life as a father. But then it almost always ends in heartbreak.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Right.

[J.D. Vance]

Because only one team actually wins the championship. And I sometimes wonder, like, why do we put ourselves through this?

[Theo Von]

It's so true that such. That is. Yeah. At a certain point, you're. The odds are you're going to face not feeling great.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Theo Von]

That it's going to end.

[J.D. Vance]

Right. Yeah. I mean, like, I guess the one team in my lifetime, like the Bulls in the 90s, Chicago Bulls in the 90s, and the Patriots when they had the Brady Belichick run, Like, most of the time, you're actually happy if you're a fan of that team. But, I mean, like, I'm a Bengals fan in pro sports, and, like, they made the Super Bowl a few years ago, and it was so cool.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I remember that. Against 49ers.

[J.D. Vance]

Wasn't against the 49ers. It's funny, I don't even remember who they were playing against, but I remember they lost at the very end. It was a very close game. We almost put it off, but then it's like all the joy turned into complete sadness. Like, I'm a grown man on the verge of tears because a fucking sports team that I rooted for lost a game. Like, wait, you know, wake up, man.

[Theo Von]

I think. Yeah. I wonder what it is. Maybe it's just like, sorry, I say.

[J.D. Vance]

The F word or.

[Theo Von]

No, it's okay.

[J.D. Vance]

Make sure people still vote for me. If I. Too many F bombs, I'm going to lose too many votes. So I'll try to tone it down.

[Theo Von]

Okay. Yeah. If you say more than seven or eight, I'll tap you on the shoulder.

[J.D. Vance]

Thank you.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, dude. Oh, I actually. My ribs, dude, I've been on a. Like, almost like, just on bed rest the past, like, eight days. Because I. I was at the Vanderbilt game when they beat Alabama two weeks ago.

[J.D. Vance]

I was a big one.

[Theo Von]

And some guy, I don't even know him, I got a little bit of a look at him, and he squeezed me so hard. He kept squeezing me, and I was like, don't squeeze me anymore. And then he squeezed me even more.

[J.D. Vance]

And you hear happy squeeze.

[Theo Von]

Or you could hear my ribs. Like, dude, they really.

[J.D. Vance]

Like the oxygen leaving your lungs.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, please don't go. That's all. Bates, I love you. Ribs that had never been away from, like, they were leaving home for the first time.

[J.D. Vance]

Wait, but was he squeezing you? Cause he was happy.

[Theo Von]

He was happy.

[J.D. Vance]

Okay, so this wasn't like a.

[Theo Von]

So I was Smiling, dude, my smile hit. I mean, the more he squeezed my, the edges of my smile, you could hear him ding against my earlobes. Yeah, I mean, squeeze me as much as somebody could be squeezed. His wife is not doing well if that guy has a wife, I'll tell you that. Because that. Anyway, my ribs, I've been having to ice some. Dude, it's been.

[J.D. Vance]

Oh, really?

[Theo Von]

It's amazing.

[J.D. Vance]

Like actually cracked a rib. I mean, it's so.

[Theo Von]

It sucks, but it was awesome. But it's like. Yeah, the pain you go through to.

[J.D. Vance]

Be associated with it, you know, I mean, look my. So like I've only been to the game in Ann Arbor once and you know, Ohio State fans again.

[Theo Von]

Oh, is it weird going up in that territory?

[J.D. Vance]

People throwing beer bottles at us, sometimes full beer cans at us. I had some kid run up, he was like a 19 year old kid, run up from behind me and it had been raining a lot that day and he had like. He'd taken a chunk of mud out of the ground and shoved it in my mouth. I mean, again, this is like what these sports rivalries are built around is moments like this. But that's insane. We had, I guess won four years in a row.

[Theo Von]

Reforestation, isn't it?

[J.D. Vance]

That's right. But man, we'd won four years in a row. And this girl, she's like 22 years old, she gets in my buddy's face and she said, this is my senior year. You ruined my college career because you guys beat us four years in a row. And then she takes a swing at him and a cop tackles this 22 year old girl down the bleachers and I'm just, you know, like, man again. Yeah. People get injured. People get injured and it's crazy.

[Theo Von]

Oh yeah, I thought that for a second. I thought you were describing a wedding in Appalachia. That's what I thought for a second.

[J.D. Vance]

We've had, we've had, we've had, we've had some of those too.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I'm just joking. I'm just joking. We had Billy Strings and he's a guy who does a lot of picking. He does like a lot of guitar picking stuff.

[J.D. Vance]

Okay.

[Theo Von]

He talked a lot about his environment, where he grew up. He grew up in like his area had a lot of addiction in it and stuff like that. What part of West Virginia is he from?

[J.D. Vance]

Oh, who's this guy?

[Theo Von]

He's from Lansing, Michigan.

[J.D. Vance]

Michigan.

[Theo Von]

But he grew up, he grew up in Kentucky. I'm ruining.

[J.D. Vance]

Well, but a lot of people. This is like the story of my life. But a lot of people from Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, their families are all from West Virginia, East Kentucky to East Tennessee, and then they moved up for the factory jobs.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

Like, there's a really cool song by Dwight Yocomb called A reading Writin Route 23. And it's like. In some ways, it's like the story of my family, because he came from, like, two counties over. He moved to central Ohio instead of Southern Ohio. But it's like, millions of people. It was a massive, massive thing. So I wouldn't be surprised even that guy's from Michigan if he's got, like, West Virginia family. I don't know that guy, though.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Billy Strings. He's great.

[J.D. Vance]

He's.

[Theo Von]

And he, too. And he'll take you fishing if you want to go. But he. He just has a fascinating story of just, like, growing up and what his life was like and playing music through it all and learning music and how that kind of kept him going and kept him. Gave him something to do, really. Yeah. Why was that migration? Why did people migrate from there to.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, it was. I mean, at least the biggest thing is, you think about it. So World War II ends, right? America is the biggest industrial power in the world. And a lot of these factories are coming online close to where they had access to waterways because you got to ship iron ore and coal and all that stuff. So a lot of stuff around the Great Lakes, that's Michigan, Ohio, a lot of coal in Pennsylvania. And so you had all these steel mills and textile factories and automobile plants, of course, in Michigan. And all this stuff is getting built. And then it's. Actually, what's interesting about it is you had a lot of black people come from the Deep south, and then a lot of primarily white people come from Appalachia, and they sort of migrated together to all these factories. And, like, you know, there are books written in Detroit about, you know, the. You've got, like, basically the hillbillies from Appalachia, the black people from the Deep south, and they're just kind of, like, tossed into Detroit. And, like, a lot of what we think of as sort of modern Detroit culture is like, the fusion of those two groups of people who just dropped in in massive, massive numbers. And it's like, one of the stories of, like, why Chicago is such a big blues town, because all the black folks from the Deep south were moving in, and they were, you know, bringing their music with them. That's why Chicago became such a capital for blues, is. It's not really like. It's because all those folks who came from the Delta. So it's basically jobs, man. I mean, there wasn't. My mama talked about this. That's what I called my grandmother. She talked a lot about how if you were growing up in Eastern Kentucky in the 30s and 40s, it was like, basically, you go work in the mines or get out. That was all there was at that time. Wow. And so my grandfather went and worked at a steel mill, built a pretty good life, was a union welder for 40 years.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah, we just had a union president on.

[J.D. Vance]

Oh, yeah, I listened to that one. I like that guy. Sean O'Brien.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

He's wild. He is wild. I mean, it's funny, man. You. You can tell he's from Boston. He's got that thick Boston accent, but he's a cool dude. I've talked to Sean a couple times, and it's like, normally, normally, Democrats are considered sort of the pro Union. And then 30 years ago, Republicans were the anti union. And one of the things I've been talking a lot about, people like Sean, is a lot of union members are coming over to the Republican side. And I think the Republican Party, we gotta do, frankly, a better job at kind of welcoming people. But I think Trump is doing a really good job of making union voters feel at home in our coalition, which is like, an interesting part of what, you know, what we're all about. I mean, I think Sean's the head of the Teamsters, I think.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And there was some poll they did just of Teamsters members where it's like 65% of Teamsters in Pennsylvania are gonna vote for Trump. That's a crazy Turnaround from even 15 years ago.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. They couldn't endorse usually. There's only been two times where they haven't endorsed a candidate in past 30 years, I think, or maybe past 50 years. Yeah, but. But this would be one of those times they said, I think, because it's just. It's too split. Yeah. So do you have to ask Trump places you can go to promote or to campaign? What does that relation. How does that work?

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, no, it's. It's. It's actually mostly driven at, like, the staff level. Right.

[Theo Von]

And so a strategy kind of.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, it's like, strategy. So, okay, there are seven big battleground states. It's. The three in the Midwest are Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and then Georgia, Arizona, Nevada and North Carolina. And so it's like, you look at. A little bit, it's driven by polling, A little bit's driven on just like, where do you think this guy's gonna do the best? And I've spent a ton of my time. Like, I think I did, like, six or five or six events just in Pennsylvania the past week and a half.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[J.D. Vance]

So I've spent a lot of time Pennsylvania, a lot of time in Michigan, a lot of time in Wisconsin. I'm actually trying to get Kid Rock to go with me to Michigan in a couple days. Cause he's a Michigan guy.

[Theo Von]

Oh, he'll go.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, he probably will.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, he'll go. Dude.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, he texted me last night. I mean, you can't see, but my cousin, for those of you who are watching, my cousin's here. She's more like my big sister, but we're hanging out. I went to a wedding last night.

[Theo Von]

Oh, nice.

[J.D. Vance]

My little cousin got married, and Kid Rock sends me a text message, like, hey, if you're in Nashville. Because I guess he knew I was doing this podcast.

[Theo Von]

Well, some people were going over there. A buddy of mine, I was texting, he's like, hey, we're going over to Bob's. And I was like, I gotta prepare for this podcast tomorrow. Vance is coming on.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. Maybe that's how he knew. Cause he texted me, and I was like, oh, man, I wanna fly to Nashville right now just so I can party with Kid Rock. Right. I mean, like, that's a. That's a. That's an experience of a lifetime. Um, so. So now I'm trying to get him to go. To go to Michigan with me, but.

[Theo Von]

Oh, I'm sure he probably would, man. Oh, yeah, dude. He's. If he's one of a kind, man.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. But anyway, to answer your question, it's basically, you go where the campaign needs you to go, right? And, like, yeah, I could say no, but I'm, like, running for vice president, so I try to do as much as I can just to be helpful.

[Theo Von]

And do y'all have. Do you go with Donald Trump? Do you guys go separately a lot of times? Do you guys have, like, strategy talks in the mornings and stuff? Like, is it. What is it like.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, it's more informed.

[Theo Von]

Is it like doubles tennis? Kind of.

[J.D. Vance]

It's more divide and conquer. Right. So it's like, you got two people, and you can be in two places, so you might as well do it. But if we got, like, a really big event, like, you know, the president got shot in Bucks county or.

[Theo Von]

Sorry, which time are you talking about?

[J.D. Vance]

The first time.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[J.D. Vance]

The first time.

[Theo Von]

Cause they really.

[J.D. Vance]

He got shot in Pennsylvania. And so we went out to Pennsylvania together to do a big rally. And then. Elon. Elon Butler, Pa. Yes, in Butler, Pennsylvania. And then, you know, like, I was in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, like a week earlier, but that was just me. Right, right. So you sort of go, you know, some places you go together, but most of the time we're sort of dividing and conquering.

[Theo Von]

How, with the attempts that they've had on Trump's. On Trump's life and safety. How much of a concern has that been for you? Like, it's like, because if I'm standing next to a guy and they're shooting at him, I'm next to him, you know?

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I mean, I try not to think about it, man, because.

[Theo Von]

Really?

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, it's just. It's one of these things you can't control. And if you're going to do this job, like, you got to go out and talk to a lot of people and you got to go try to win. Right. I mean.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[J.D. Vance]

Like, I fundamentally believe that we're trying to win to help the country. So either you, you know, you either do it or you don't do it. And if you do it, you just kind of. Kind of accept it. I mean, I don't think there's. I don't know, maybe I'm just. This is just me rationalizing it. I don't feel like there's that big of a target on my back, but who the hell knows?

[Theo Von]

Well, you're tall. Are you. Are you a little taller than him or not? Yep.

[J.D. Vance]

I think we're about the same height.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. Which is funny, man. The weird shit people say about you on the Internet. Like the thing. There was a long time, maybe even still today, if you Google how tall is J.D. vance? It would say five foot seven. And I said six two.

[Theo Von]

Now somebody updated it then.

[J.D. Vance]

Somebody updated it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

Okay, the first headline is JD Vance is tall, but Americans are getting shorter. What the hell is the Internet's a weird ass?

[Theo Von]

It also says Joe Biden is six foot sleep. I don't know if that's a height.

[J.D. Vance]

Well, see, this is a thing, though. How tall is J.D. vance? There was like a conspiracy on the Internet that I was a really short guy. But yeah, no, I'm. I'm about six two, I think.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Once you get better people helping you get you height, you get. You get.

[J.D. Vance]

You're pretty tall.

[Theo Von]

You get a little. I'm 6ft tall. Yeah, I'm 6ft tall. If this rib gets back in place, I'M six foot and a half inch, brother, I'll tell you that. So there's. Did you have to ask your wife about that? Like, say, hey, like, did she have to weigh in? Because that's a little. Because I'm trying to think of other jobs where you get shot at, really. Military, domestic violence, I guess, and then politicians.

[J.D. Vance]

Politician. I mean, normally politicians don't get shot at that much, but apparently it's coming back. Apparently it's coming back, man. That's not like a good thing to come back to. You know what I mean?

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

But I also. I mean, it's. It's. I definitely grew up, like. And I grew up in Ohio, but I spent a lot of time in Eastern Kentucky.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And if you go to, like, there's a courthouse in Breathitt County, Kentucky. I mean, beautiful part of the country, like, kind of in the mountains, and there's like a plaque, like a historical plaque that's basically, like, on this site, multiple people were killed in the Breathitt county blood feuds of the early 20th century. So I don't know, you just kind of accept it, as bad as it is. I mean, I want us to get away from it. Right. As a country, but as an individual candidate, I think you just have to kind of accept it. I mean, I'll tell you.

[Theo Von]

But I guess if you're going into battle, you're going into battle.

[J.D. Vance]

That's right. Yeah, that's right. You just got to do what you got to do.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

But again, you know, I'm like, I'm a. I'm a person of faith. I don't talk about it that much. I don't wear it on my sleeve. I always sort of mistrust people who wear it too much on their sleeve. But I feel like, you know, if God wants me to be vice president, I'll be vice president. If not, then I won't.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

You know, you just got to work your ass off and let the chips fall where they may.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. I saw where you had. Your mom was out and you congratulated her on. She almost has 10 years of sobriety, you said.

[J.D. Vance]

That's right. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

She's in January.

[J.D. Vance]

January of 2025, she will be 10 years clean and sober. And that's really funny because, you know, she's standing next to there, that's Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

Like. And, like, my family's not very political, so they bring her up to this booth and, like, two chairs over is Donald Trump. Of course she knows who that is. But she shakes Mike Johnson's hand and he's like, you know, lovely to meet you. And she says, lovely to meet you too. Who are you? Do you work in politics? Like, mom, that's the speaker of the House. Okay.

[Theo Von]

She's like, well, I'll take a. I'll take a McDouble. What?

[J.D. Vance]

A diet Coke with. With extra ice.

[Theo Von]

What was. Yeah, I know your mom's. Your mom struggled with alcoholism, right? Addiction, mostly?

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, mostly non alcohol drugs. I never saw her, you know, drink that much, but I mean, you know, pills, opioids, heroin.

[Theo Von]

What's it been like to watch her get sober? What's that been like?

[J.D. Vance]

It's amazing, man. It's. It's amazing. I know you're. You're. What. What are you. You're recovery?

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I'm in recovery. Yeah. A lot of my family's in it, too. So I think, yeah, I can. I can relate a lot to your story, to be honest with you.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. But I mean, look, look, I mean, there was a time, like, I always, you know, always wanted to grow up and have a family. And I remember when I was a teenager thinking to myself, there's no way mom's gonna be around to meet, like, if I have kids, there's no way my mom's ever gonna meet them. And, you know, she's now, like, she's now a great grandmother to the three grandkids. But I don't know, man. It's just, if you've known anybody in this circumstance, it sounds like you know very well. What it's like is there's like this. There's two feelings that you have, or at least always two feelings. I had when mom was going through it is like, on the one hand, yeah, she's so smart, she's so funny, and you're just kind of rooting for her because you just want her to get better. Then on the other hand, you're just pissed off. It's like, because you don't quite understand it. I think if you're not in recovery yourself, it's hard to fully understand. You'd be frustrated with her one moment and then just desperate for her to get better the next moment. And you're constantly bouncing back and forth. But, man, it's amazing. It really is. I mean, she was at the wedding we were at last night and just having a good time and being her, like, funny, quirky self.

[Theo Von]

She has a good sense of humor.

[J.D. Vance]

She's a very good sense of humor. I mean, you know, like the bridegroom had this really cool tradition where they had, like, at each table a wine bottle with a number on it. And then like at the table one, they'd open that bottle of wine their first anniversary, and table two, the second anniversary and so forth. And they had people write stuff in Sharpies on the wine bottle. I'd never seen that. I thought it was pretty cool little thing. And my mom, I forget what table she was in, but, you know, like 10 years down the road, and she just. She writes something on her bottle like, hey, I love you. Hopefully I'm still alive when you're drinking this. She's just got like a kind of a morbid, quirky sense of humor. But yeah, man, it's really amazing because again, I just never. I never thought she'd be alive when I was 40 years old. And she is. And she's got a good relationship with her family and her grandparents or her grandkids. And that's just a very cool thing.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, it's a blessing, man. That's awesome. It was really cool to see that. Did you ever go to meetings with her? Did she go to. You have been before?

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, I've been to a lot of NA meetings.

[Theo Von]

When you were growing up, did you ever go or. No.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, I went when I was a kid. I went. I went when I was a teenager. I mean, I've been to a lot, actually, just in the past few years because she, you know, that she's like. You know, she feels like she's really on the other side of it. Yeah, she does a lot with her local and a. I think she's the treasurer, the secretary of her local NA chapter. And do you ever go to meetings or anything like that?

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah, I went to one. I went to one. I was at one last night at eight.

[J.D. Vance]

Okay. I mean, there's actually a really special community around it, which I really like. And it almost kind of reminds me of church 100%, where you say these prayers and you talk about what's going on. And there's like this sense of fellowship and community that I think is really awesome. And it's like one of these things where you see just human nature and all of its good sides and its bad sides. Right. Because sometimes you have people who come in and they're getting their 24 hour medallion, which is like, this is the first real period of sobriety I've had in a very long time. Then sometimes you have people celebrating 15, 20, 25 years, and it's just amazing to see. But I don't know if you noticed this, but something I noticed, and it's not to get too political here, but, you know, like five, six, seven years ago, you know, you started noticing this, and then it really started picking up a few years ago where you have somebody who's been, say, six months or nine months sober, and then they don't come to a couple meetings and then they're just dead. And you realize, like, when people relapse, when mom was in the worst of it, yeah, there was some dangerous shit out there, but it wasn't nearly as deadly as the stuff that's out there today.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And I really worry about that. Right. Because, you know, think about the second chance I got with my mom, and I really worry that the poison that we've got in the streets now is so dangerous that a lot of people would have that second chance. But, you know, you fall off the wagon once, 15 years ago, it's like, oh, that sucks. I'm going to climb back on today. You fall off that wagon, it might kill you.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And I really worry about that because I think a lot of good people like mom, it didn't happen, like, once. Right. It's not like she got clean and sober and that was it. It's a process.

[Theo Von]

Fall off a few times.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, it's a process, man.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. I've had relapses over the years and had to get back on. And it's. It's tough. And one of the tougher things to do is to get back on. But it's funny because I think if. I don't know if I'd be sober if the stuff weren't killing people, to be honest with you. I know that's sad to say, but that keeps me out of the risk of it, you know, it just makes it too.

[J.D. Vance]

Makes it a little scarier.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, that's the thing. It makes it scarier. But it's also sad that somebody. I mean, this is ridiculous to say probably that somebody can't. You know, you can't even do cocaine in this country anymore, you know, and that seems like a crazy thing to say. And don't say that. Don't say that. But I said it. But. But. Yeah, but don't say that anymore.

[J.D. Vance]

I'm going to steal that line.

[Theo Von]

That's going to.

[J.D. Vance]

After the election, though, and I. No, no, we got to win first.

[Theo Von]

It's unfortunate.

[J.D. Vance]

To be clear, those watching. I've never done cocaine before.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And nobody made many mistakes, but not that one.

[Theo Von]

Nobody's saying. Yeah, but it's just. It's unfortunate that. That it's un. I don't even know where you're going.

[J.D. Vance]

I know what you mean. But it's unfortunate that, like, look, like you said, everybody makes mistakes.

[Theo Von]

Right?

[J.D. Vance]

Everybody makes mistakes. Right. And, like, I know, as a buddy of mine told me about this, hell, this has got been three years ago. It's been a while. But basically what happened is his daughter was like a bridesmaid in a wedding, and they were going to this wedding and, like, the wedding got canceled because a couple of the groomsmen, like, had terrible overdoses the night before at the bachelor party because they took something. You can judge and say, oh, they shouldn't have been taking something, but everybody takes something at some point in their lives. Like, we don't want it to kill people. We don't want stupid mistakes to kill people. That's sort of like, live and learn, live and learn from stupid mistakes. Right.

[Theo Von]

You used to be able to live and learn.

[J.D. Vance]

Yes. Now it becomes a death sentence. That's what's really, I think, changed about from now to when my. My mom was struggling with addiction.

[Theo Von]

Why is it so bad? Do you know a lot about the fentanyl crisis?

[J.D. Vance]

I mean, I know a fair amount about it. I've worried about it for a long time. I've worked on bills related to it. There are two basic issues. It's like any business, there's a manufacturer, there's a wholesaler, and then there's the retail. And with fentanyl, it's. It's not. You can't like, make fentanyl in a trailer in somebody's basement or that's like. It's not like meth. It takes a really complicated, pretty sophisticated pharmaceutical process. So we know that a lot of it, maybe even most of it, the Chinese are making, meaning Chinese companies, not like, necessarily the Chinese government, but they sure as hell know about it. And then they bring it in primarily through the southern border. And the Mexican drug cartels are like the wholesalers. Right. Of the Chinese pharmacists. Pharma's the manufacturer. The drug cartels are bringing in wholesale style, and then it makes in the street level.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[J.D. Vance]

And I mean, it's really crazy, man. Like, I was talking to a DEA agent about this a couple of years ago, and I think this was in. This was in 2022. He was. He was like, look, a few years ago, the cartels were making less than a billion dollars a year. And he's like, in 22, 23, we think they'll make $14 billion a year. So, like an explosion of drug trafficking in this country. And. Yeah, you hear about stories, and I don't think it happens that much. Thank God. But somebody smokes a joint, it's laced with Fentanyl, they go into a coma.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I have seven friends that have that. I have seven friends. And not even just like, estranged people, you know, like. But not all best friends.

[J.D. Vance]

Sure.

[Theo Von]

But I have seven friends that overdose and died from fentanyl.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, that's me.

[J.D. Vance]

Right. And it. Yeah, and it happened with harder stuff. It happens a lot. Like, I think with. You know, you hear about it being laced in marijuana, but, like, not that much. Yeah, but I mean, your point about cocaine, pills, like, you have to be careful.

[Theo Von]

Like, seriously, it's a huge thing.

[J.D. Vance]

It's an unbelievable crisis.

[Theo Von]

And it's like. Yeah, you'd think that we. I don't know how you fight something like that. Maybe we need to have, like, a. Like a. Ahead of, like, the DEA or something on. Maybe he would be able to help or she would be able to help us figure that out a little bit more.

[J.D. Vance]

I think that'd be a very interesting conversation, but I think you've got to. I think you got to go to it at the heart. And something, you know, Trump did towards the end of his administration doesn't get a whole lot of headlines. Obviously, I'm biased. I think it should get headlines is he was using economic leverage to try to convince the Chinese to crack down on fentanyl manufacturing. Because if you get it at the source right, that's, I think, really the way to address it.

[Theo Von]

Oh, there's fentanyl in half the bookshelves they make over there. Dude, you put a couple. You put a half set of dictionaries, and that will give way.

[J.D. Vance]

I mean, I absolutely believe that. Oh, man, that's it. What's in the furniture here? Are we okay?

[Theo Von]

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[J.D. Vance]

But you, I mean, you do that, you go after the drug cartels. The other thing that people don't realize about the cartels, man, is, is one we're talking about some very dark and dangerous people. Like this is not some guy who's dealing, selling joints on a College campus. These are like, they're doing sex trafficking. They're getting 11, 10 year old girls involved in the sex trade. Yeah, they're like very evil people.

[Theo Von]

Dictator type of like, oh, just absolutely vile.

[J.D. Vance]

And it's like, why are we making it easier for this massive criminal organizations to get richer and richer and richer. Like we should be trying to make them poor and I mean, you know, help. Help people who actually need it.

[Theo Von]

Well, it's also, it's obviously one of the biggest enemies. That's right. It's like if there were an enemy that were killing, if somebody, if there were somebody shooting in your country every day and killing people.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

At a certain point you go over there, you send your military there or do something to say, hey, that's right, you're not gonna be, we're not gonna let you do this anymore. Yeah, that's basically what's happening.

[J.D. Vance]

That's right. Can you imagine if Mexico sent gunmen across the border and killed 70,000Americans a year? Because that's about what dies from fentanyl. We would be in a major war. Right. It just absolutely would be the case. So the other thing that's crazy about this is so these cartels and you see this graphic is pretty interesting there, but the cartels are gonna start to destabilize the country of Mexico. Do you know the name Pablo Escobar?

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I do.

[J.D. Vance]

Okay, so like the Colombian cartels in the 70s were as powerful as like the Colombian government. Right. It was a narco state. You don't want that to happen, like right at the American southern border where the drug cartels have more power than the Mexican government. That's just going to be chaotic. It's going to be basically a war like atmosphere on our southern border. That's bad news.

[Theo Von]

Well, it's bad news, but it'd be great to figure out a way that, to shut it down. I mean it just feels like, yeah, if that many people are dying each year, if it were actual people shooting at these people, we would send people there in a heartbeat.

[J.D. Vance]

Right. I mean, and I think that's what we have to, I think, not that we have to send people to Mexico, but I think that we actually have to have a military response at the southern border 100% because these are such vicious people. And I think local law enforcement, they're telling us they're overwhelmed by some of these guys. And we've gotta be willing to send our best people, our best fighters to get control of the southern border. I think that's the most Important issue confronting the country because, look, I mean, how do you even measure the human cost of 70,000 people, many of them in the prime of their life?

[Theo Von]

And the ripple effect of it, too.

[J.D. Vance]

In their families, the orphans, the parents that are heartbroken? I mean, how many kids are like. It's my story, right? That's why my grandmother raised me, is because my mom struggled with addiction. Luckily, my mom got clean. You've got hundreds of thousands of children who are being raised by their grandparents or their aunts and uncles. Like, that is an unspeakable human tragedy, man.

[Theo Von]

Especially when we can do better.

[J.D. Vance]

We could do so much better, and we're failing right now. And that's, you know, the one. One of the reasons why I'm here, one of the reasons why I'm running.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. What. What. What was it like growing up, like, with an alcoholic mother, like, and no judgment against your mother? This is just to look at it, right?

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, sure. No, I appreciate that.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. What. What is that like? Like, is it hard to make a connection with your mom? Like, what are some of the side effects of that on a child?

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, I mean, I definitely think there's a. You get very careful about who you allow yourself to get close to. Right? That's. That's one big part of it. You're never quite sure whether you can trust the particular situation that you're in. Right. So am I still going to be living in this house three months from now if I have somebody, if I give somebody my address? Because this is back in the 90s, right? People still wrote letters, postcards, things like that, at least a lot more than they do today. If I give somebody my address, are they going to send me a letter? And I'm not even going to live in this place anymore because we moved around a fair amount.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[J.D. Vance]

But I think that the thing that I took away from it is, even as a young kid, I sort of very neatly divided the world into three categories of people. They were the helpless people, the victims, the people who needed to be we helped. There were the bad guys who were preying on the victims, and then there were the strong people who sort of stood up for everybody else and stood up to the bad guys. And that's like, you know, that's overly simplistic, but definitely, you know, I saw my mom growing up very much as this person who was kind of a victim and was being prey on by bad people. Right. And then the person who was sort of looking up for us and standing up for me especially was my grandmother. And I think that that, that attitude of, you know, some people are just not as strong as we wish them to be and bad people are going to prey on them, but it's kind of up to, you know, try to make yourself the person who can look out for people, who can protect people. And that's always what I wanted to be. That's one thing I think I took from it.

[Theo Von]

Were you able to be that for your mom? Did you feel like, you know, not always.

[J.D. Vance]

Certainly, I mean, when I was.

[Theo Von]

It's a lot of responsibility for a kid.

[J.D. Vance]

When I was a teenager, man, I was definitely very, very selfish. I think I got pretty resentful just with the situation. It's like, oh, other people have more money than I do. Other people have more stability than I do. You know, other people, you know, they've got nice cars. We don't have that. So there's, there's definitely like. There's definitely like a resentment that comes from it, I think. But, you know, I left high school, enlisted in the Marine Corps, spent four years in the Marine Corps. And I think that what, you know, that really did for me was just like, gave me a cool perspective. And I probably went into the Marine Corps. I was pretty whiny, pretty resentful kid. Was pissed off at my mom, was pissed off at all these other people because I didn't have the things that I thought I should have. And then eventually, yeah, there's me when I was much, much skinnier, much better looking.

[Theo Von]

Oh yeah, the Marines, dude. That was the original Ozempic.

[J.D. Vance]

That's right.

[Theo Von]

That's Bro Z.

[J.D. Vance]

That is good. That is good. Marines. The original Ozempic. I'm going to steal that one. But, but, man. Yeah, I know. I say this all the time, dude. If I went back to boot camp for two months, Boot camps, three months. If I went back to boot camp for two months, I'd come out with a six pack. Yeah, but. But you know, I've anyway, so.

[Theo Von]

Semper Fat dude. Sorry, that was stupid. And I don't even know if you can even joke about Semper Fight. And I'm no offense to any Marines. Not at all.

[J.D. Vance]

No. I'm sure no Marines took offense to.

[Theo Von]

Obviously. Yeah, I've been. We've done a lot of shows on military bases and stuff and it's usually the Army's just waiting for the Marines to get there to tell them what to do.

[J.D. Vance]

That's right.

[Theo Von]

I know the chain of command.

[J.D. Vance]

But yeah, anyway, so we had a. Yeah, I think that the Way that I noticed it, I mean, not to get too personal, but like, when I. So I met my wife in law school and it was like, you know, I dated girls in the past, but for her it was like, oh, my God, this is. I'm in love with this girl. Right? Like, I'd known her for a week and I was like, I want to marry this girl. Yeah. And there was definitely just an element of like, it took a long time for me to get to a place where I was like, oh, I can actually trust this person, actually rely on this person. Because that's not really the experience that I had growing up is the people you trusted, the people you relied on, they would just kind of disappear. Sometimes through no fault of their own, but sometimes they would just disappear. And so I don't know if you say I have attachment issues, and that's something that definitely, I think comes from growing up in a pretty tough, pretty chaotic environment. But the other thing, the flip side of it is, and again, this is why I talk about the Marine Corps, is after four years in the Marine Corps, you know, like one of the best Marines, maybe the best Marine that I served with is this kid who grew up, he was a Puerto Rican guy from the Bronx, was a drug dealer, wore jewelry or not.

[Theo Von]

Do you wear jewelry?

[J.D. Vance]

I mean, not with uniform, right? Yeah, maybe he did. But by the time he, you know, by the time I met him as a Marine, he did, but he was like, he had had a much harder life than I had. And there was no bullshit, there was no complaining, no whining. He was just doing his job and he was a good dude. And you meet a lot of people like that and you start to realize, like, in some ways, you know, not having everything handed to you is actually a blessing.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[J.D. Vance]

And growing up in a tough circumstance and being able to understand that not everybody's always had it easy. I used to be annoyed by that kind of complaining about it. Now I sort of see it as like a good thing. Right. Because I think I have a different perspective than a lot of people I spend my life around where, you know, they were born to a rich family, they went to a private school, then everything was kind of laid out for them.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

It's kind of good to not have everything laid out for you because you have to work for it a little bit more.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. That was going to be my next, my follow up question that was just like, yeah, what are the positives? And also, so we don't get stuck in like, you know, just in like a Debbie Downer spiral kind of, you know, because it's okay to talk about stuff. But sometimes it's like things can get kind of like where you're just looking at the negative things. But there's usually something positive in everything.

[J.D. Vance]

Exactly right.

[Theo Von]

And yeah, that's what I was thinking. What were some of the positives of having a childhood like that and of being. Yeah, and I guess it would be some self reliance.

[J.D. Vance]

I think it's definitely some self reliance.

[Theo Von]

Awareness probably. Which is probably a curse when you're young because it feels like you have to be kind of scared of stuff. But when you get older, being. Having awareness can be pretty helpful sometimes.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. I've got my head on a swivel, right. I'm always looking around corners. I'm always kind of worried that things that aren't exactly what they seem. But I think that's made me a little less comfortable, which is a good thing, especially in the, in the political life.

[Theo Von]

Oh yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

These days it's good to have your head on a swivel.

[Theo Von]

Hey, now.

[J.D. Vance]

Everybody has. Everybody in politics has a vice that's much worse than alcoholism is the way that I put it. But we release the list, Seriously, we need to release the fucking scene list. That is an important thing. We go down that rabbit hole. But anyway, I guess the other thing that I gain from it is I think that I'm just much. I see people as people. And one thing I've picked up on, like I went to law school at Yale and a lot of my classmates are good people.

[Theo Von]

But you're a lawyer also.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, but I sort of. As soon as I went from law school, I went into the business world. So I never really practiced law. I was mostly a business guy. But like, a lot of my friends, they look at people as like, where did you go to school? What do your parents do? What job do you have? What credential do you have? I've never had that. Right. And so when people like talk about politics or policy, they'll be like, oh, well, this person has a PhD. I don't give a shit. They may be smart, but I don't care about.

[Theo Von]

The PC is only 3. It doesn't even spell anything.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, exactly. I don't even. But I don't care about. I don't care about the letters. But I. But like, I meet somebody and, oh, they don't have a fancy degree or they don't have a fancy job. I still just naturally care about what they think because the way that I grew Up. I just sort of see people as people.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And I think that's a. That's just a very. It's a perspective that I'm glad that I have. I think it's very much a product of how I grew up.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. I like people that have their own thing. I have. Like, I don't. Like. I don't. I don't dislike somebody if they inherited everything.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

But I gravitate more towards people that haven't had that experience, I think, because. Yeah. I don't know. There's just something a little bit more admirable about it. I don't like it when things were handed to people. I guess maybe the truth is I got upset when other people had stuff that was handed to them, which probably was just normal stuff to be handed to a kid.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Or to a. To, you know. But that made me, like, off. Screw that. You know, I'll figure this out. You know what I'm saying? Them or whatever. You know what I'm saying?

[J.D. Vance]

I had that exact attitude when I was, like, 13, 14.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

And some of that is. It's just that rebellion at that age. What would you say? And because we have a lot of audience members that have struggled with addiction or who.

[J.D. Vance]

Or.

[Theo Von]

And these days, everybody's. You can't even. Like, who doesn't have somebody that's in their family or something that struggle with addiction. But what. What suggestion or, like, just advice or thoughts would you give to a young person who has a parent who's. Who has alcoholism as to how to navigate that? Because I even get messages a lot from people that are like, hey, my dad is struggling, or this. What do I do? I don't know what to do here. You know? Do you have any thoughts on that? And it's not like you're a specialist.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, I'm not a specialist. I mean, here's what I tried to do. I mean, take this for, you know, for what it's worth. But number one is you gotta. If you're a kid in your environment where there's a lot of addiction, you gotta make sure that you're taken care of. Right. Like, don't get yourself in such a situation where it's not just your parent that is struggling, but it becomes you that's struggling too. Right. Cause you can't help them out. You can't help them out unless you're able to take care of yourself first. Right. That's number one. I think number two is as hard as it is, man. And shit. I know this Very well. Because there were times when I had some very angry moments with my mom. Don't get resentful, and try to keep your heart as open as possible. You got to compartmentalize a little bit. Yeah. There's the addict version, but then there's the version that read you a book when you were a kid. Or there's the version that took you to your favorite movie. Try to hold onto the memories that are completely divorced from the addiction. Because I think if you allow yourself to become totally resentful, then it doesn't just affect them, it starts to affect you too. Right. Don't allow your parents addiction to become something that destroys your life too. In other words, you got to kind of keep your soul intact here. I mean, just practically go to those NA meetings. I learned more about mom and her addiction going to those NA meetings. And I didn't always. It's not like it was like some eureka moment. Oh, there's. I'm not pissed off at you anymore.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[J.D. Vance]

But you at least understand it a little bit more and you gain some appreciation for what's going on in their life, because that's a. That's a big part of it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And you also think about NA meetings is just. Again, it is human nature and all of its splendor, its virtue and its vice, man.

[Theo Von]

It's just real life. The last one I went to some dude selling a fucking boat at one of them.

[J.D. Vance]

Exactly.

[Theo Von]

And we're like, you can't do. We're trying to get off of drugs, dude. And. Yeah. And some guys started bidding on the boat. I'm like. And they had made him take it outside. Yeah. Because it's outside issues or whatever. But it was like, what is even happening here, dude? I was in a meeting. Some guy had a fish hook stuck in his freaking cheek, dude.

[J.D. Vance]

Really?

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

Wow.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

Wow, man.

[Theo Von]

Buddy had two weeks clean.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. He'd either had a really bad night or really good night.

[Theo Von]

God dang. It's just like. All right, dude. Catch him. Release, brother. Catch him. Release. He probably tried to come across the border. And I only say that because we had a couple of border patrol agents on here, and so we've learned a good bit about it over the years.

[J.D. Vance]

No, man. I had a border patrol agent who's.

[Theo Von]

Clearly before you go. But I just. That statement about trying not to be resentful against your parent. Because yeah. Once that resentment is the seed that can lead you down some of this or activate some of the same behaviors in you, it's not. And I'm not preaching that, but it can activate a lot of resentment is just. It's an evil seed.

[J.D. Vance]

No, that's right.

[Theo Von]

So many bad things can happen there because it's just. That's an important message. I never thought of that or heard it before.

[J.D. Vance]

Well, and what you said earlier about not getting into a negative spiral, I think is really important just psychologically, I mean. Look, man, I know you had a tough life in a lot of ways. There are certainly some moments in my life that were pretty tough, but I've never again. I'm not an expert. I've read some books on this stuff. This is not J.D. vance's expert opinion. This is just a guy talking is. I really worry that a lot of the mental health stuff in 2024 is about focusing so much on what's bad in your life that you end up wallowing in it. And it becomes a sort of self reinforcing spiral. Like, there's only so much you can. I mean, if bad shit has happened to you, there's only so much you can do to think about it and process it. And you know, sometimes bad shit happens because it just happens. Right. There's no like, rationalizing. There's no like, thinking through it. And you know what I've always found, like, is most helpful is getting outside and going for a walk. Like that made me feel way better than trying to understand why did mom do this thing when she was 13 or when I was 13 years old and she was, you know, I guess 39 or 30. 36. She would have been when I was 13. But like, why? Why?

[Theo Von]

Right? Still harping on it. Yeah, you just gotta go for some walks then. I mean, I go for him, but still sometimes you got some ghosts, man. But I mean.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, and I've got ghosts too, man.

[Theo Von]

But the longer you sit there and look for ghosts, it's still ghosts.

[J.D. Vance]

You still a ghost. It's almost like you find more ghosts and you keep on finding them and then it's like, all right, man, I just, I can go, like, hang out with my buddies, go for a walk and have a drink. Well, you know, not if you're dealing with addiction, but like, have a drink of coffee, Just like go, you know, go hang out. Because I really worry that, like, the constant wallowing is bad for us.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, we've gotten into this. Definitely into a constant, into a heavy self help type of vibe.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

You know, like every book is a self help book because self help is great. But also you're saying the other side of that is you're saying that something's wrong with me. Right. And so if you're always looking for ways to improve yourself, which it can be positive to do that.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

I've noticed in my own life, it's also a way where you're also kind of saying there's always something wrong with you.

[J.D. Vance]

That's interesting.

[Theo Von]

So I'm in the same way that I'm. Oh, I'm always trying to get better. It's like I've obviously created. Then there's something unachievable because if I'm always trying to get better, I've set this impossible course. So really part of me is telling me, oh, there's something wrong with you. So it becomes a little bit more about finding ways to accept myself.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, you got to balance it, right? You got to balance. Obviously there's all things we can work on, but it can become a self defeating cycle if people get it and I try to just balance it, you know, Like I like about two years ago, at the end of my senate campaign, I was just like I had gotten very overweight and it's like, I mean, campaign is hard on the body. You eat Chick fil a for breakfast, you eat Wendy's for lunch, you eat Waffle House for dinner. Right. After a while that starts to catch up with you. And I think the.

[Theo Von]

What did you get at waffles? Just so we know it.

[J.D. Vance]

Oh, man. I'm an All America special sub. Grits for home fries or hash browns? Yeah, that's.

[Theo Von]

I didn't even know they had home fries.

[J.D. Vance]

Well, they have. They have hash browns. Sorry. They have hash browns on home fries.

[Theo Von]

They have homeless fries over there. Dude.

[J.D. Vance]

That. Okay, that second photo from the top, that is the All America special. But again, I'm not a grits guy, so if you swap out the grits for hash browns, they don't charge you anything.

[Theo Von]

Look, dude.

[J.D. Vance]

Dude, that is. That is a meal of champions, right?

[Theo Von]

Your arteries are paying a high tariff. Well, that's how you are.

[J.D. Vance]

Yes, they are. But anyway, the point.

[Theo Von]

Do you get raisin toast or stick with that regular toast?

[J.D. Vance]

I get regular toast. Yeah, I just put a lot of jam on it. I'm not a big raisin guy. Yeah, you like raisins?

[Theo Von]

I like. I mean, because I like grapes that have been through something, you know, it's just who I am, you know? But so, yeah, I guess I do like it, you know, I guess I like my.

[J.D. Vance]

I like my grapes, you know, nice and nice and clean and.

[Theo Von]

Oh, I like grapes of Wrap. Which are basically raisins. Those are basically raisins.

[J.D. Vance]

Anyway, I bring that up because it's like you can get into a spiral where it's like, oh, I'm unhealthy, and you beat up on yourself about it. But there's a good balance where you recognize you got to go for a run every now and then and take care of yourself. And that's what I've tried to do, is just balance the good and the bad.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

Life's balance, man.

[Theo Von]

It's a good point. Yeah. Things aren't going to be Exactly. Yeah, things aren't going to be perfect, you know?

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

I always was like, I always. Yeah. I created when I was a kid, like, I have to be perfect and to be, like, accepted or whatever, you know?

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

That was like a. That was like a way that I created in my life, I think. Like.

[J.D. Vance]

Well. And what did that look. So give me? Like, what would you try to be perfect at? Like, school or work or just, like, you know, get in shape or. Like what? Like what? Like, what's your. If you're trying to get perfect, what are you trying to get perfect?

[Theo Von]

Well, that's the crazy part is it was almost this blind thing. I never even asked the question, hey, what am I trying to be perfect at? It was just this, like, you, like, the only way you're going to be seen, you have to do everything perfect, you know?

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

And then you'll get the. You'll. I don't know. It's just this missing thing inside of myself.

[J.D. Vance]

I know what you mean.

[Theo Von]

I wanted to be seen. So it was like, you have to do it perfect.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Right. If you. Because if you do it perfect, then there would be no way. It wouldn't mathematically make sense that you wouldn't be seen then.

[J.D. Vance]

Sure.

[Theo Von]

Because that would have to be seen. Right. Nobody would not see something that was done perfectly. But. But perfection was. Is impossible. And so it was always. I'd always set myself up for this. Like, you'd always come up short no matter what it was. And it could be in anything. Something I was presenting at school, the way I was. The way I looked while you were talking to me. It just. Everything had to be like. So it was this constant. Like, I just never let my breath go, you know? And. And. And then I was always falling short. And so then.

[J.D. Vance]

That can be a tough way to live.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Oh, it was horrible. And it fulfilled this prophecy in my head. Oh, we fell short. You're not enough. Which. Which is what you Thought in the beginning anyway. Right. And I'm not saying that now, like now I have different thoughts and feelings, but those were things that I. Now I'm able to look back and see, oh, that that's how I was operating.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

And just how, even when I talk about it, it sounds fucking impossibly stressful. Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, it does. I mean, that's. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Did you ever go to ACA meetings or anything like that?

[J.D. Vance]

ACA meetings?

[Theo Von]

Like adult children of alcoholics, did you ever go to?

[J.D. Vance]

No. No. I guess it's interesting. No, I never did.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, some people don't need it.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. I mean, I think frankly it probably would have helped me. Would have been useful to go to. We did sometimes, like there was one very long term treatment facility that mom went to and I guess it was kind of like that because part of that was that we would go to meetings every couple of weeks with all the kids of the people who were in.

[Theo Von]

Oh, that's pretty cool.

[J.D. Vance]

So that may have been an ACA meeting. I just didn't know the name of it. But that was definitely interesting. And again, it's like you go to the meetings with some of these kids and you think your life is tough and you realize, man, there's always somebody who's got it much worse than. Than you do.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And that's, again, I think that's a good attitude to have because then you feel grateful for what you have. That's another thing, man. Like, the feeling of gratitude is so empowering. Like if you're just grateful for what you have, you know, like, yeah, you know, you and your wife have an argument, but if you're just grateful for her, for her existence, that's such a better attitude. Your kid does something that's annoying to you. But I'm just so grateful that I have this beautiful little baby that I get to take care of. I don't know. The feeling of gratitude, I think is a very powerful thing.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, people say that a lot. Was being a parent scary for you? Were you scared? Like, absolutely, yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

Terrifying to me. Yeah, man. I was taught by my childhood that most people really screw up parenting. And it's not just like you make a mistake, you get a bad grade, or your boss is pissed off at you, you make a mistake and you're like, screwing up.

[Theo Von]

You get a bad grade, that has to go stay, that stays alive.

[J.D. Vance]

That stays alive. The C plus is having a really tough week. And you know, like, do you have kids? Yeah. So I mean, you just, you just love your kids so Much. Right. I mean, you really think the sun shines out their ass? You know, that's, that's kind of how you see children.

[Theo Von]

Oh yeah, Like Care Bears or whatever.

[J.D. Vance]

That's right, like a Care Bear. But a living, breathing Care Bear. Yeah. That you have to take care of. And so I was just really terrified because, you know, this has certainly gotten a lot better. But you know, When I was 27, 28, I had like a pretty bad temper, you know, like if somebody cut me off, I'd be really pissed off. Now I don't drive anymore because I have a Secret Service detail, which is probably a good thing. But, but I, but I, you know, like, I just think to myself, oh my God, is my kid going to do something bad and I'm going to fly off the handle? Like, you know.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah, I worry about that.

[J.D. Vance]

Right. And yeah, I mean, look, certainly kids can be frustrating from time to time, but for whatever reason, I think it's partially because my wife's so patient. It's in part just because I'm older and a little wiser is, you know, it's really worked out and I've, you know, I've screwed up and I've made mistakes as a parent and certainly there are days where you're like, oh man, I can't believe that I did this or that. But you know, one, kids are much more resilient than people give them credit for. And two, it's just, it's a learning process, man. And it's amazing. I mean, kids are so, so crazy. Like the difference between our two year old and our seven year old, just in personality and what they say and you know, kids have no filter. Yeah, right. So like one of the things that we call on our side of the aisle is that we'll like, you know, we'll call the news journalists, the corporate media, I call them fake news. Right. You gotta be careful about that shit. Cause my kids getting on the plane with me, my 4 year old, to come to an event and somebody gets.

[Theo Von]

On the loudspeaker, they're saying where to sit or whatever and he's like, fake.

[J.D. Vance]

No, no, he sees all these people taking photos of us and videos. Because I get photographed and video, I'm constantly being photographed wherever I go. And he sees these people with cameras, he goes, daddy, is that the fake news? And you realize you got to be a little bit more careful about what you say.

[Theo Von]

No, that's grandma. Now smile. Okay, that's just. Grandma's getting a picture of us.

[J.D. Vance]

But yeah, I Mean, it's, it's, it's the most rewarding thing that I've ever done. It's, it's definitely changed my perspective.

[Theo Von]

So it surprised you as to, as to. It surprised you against your fears? Kind of.

[J.D. Vance]

It did, it did. I mean, one, it's just not as, it's not as hard, I guess, as I thought it would be.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Because that's what I just. Yeah, I guess.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

I don't know if I think about it being hard. I don't know, it just feels like it would be so scary. That's the word that comes into my head, man.

[J.D. Vance]

It is, it is scary. But it's like one of those things where you just, you know, you just deal with it. Right. And it's kind of good to confront that fear and then you realize it's not as bad. I mean, you know, most people will tell you like, the first kid gets completely babied, right? Yeah. And you know, oh, you've got to put hand sanitizer on before you touch the baby when they come home from the hospital. And by the third kid you're like, I don't. Oh, you just played in the mud. Fine, come over here. And you realize that kids are again, they're much more resilient than people give them credit for. But you also, you just learn a lot about yourself and like the coolest thing, Right. Think about my mom. I didn't think my mom would be alive when I was 40 years old. And now I see her play Pokemon with my little 7 year old and build a relationship with these little kids and it's just a really, it's a really, really rewarding thing.

[Theo Von]

I mean, does it feel like a gift that you were able to give your mom? Almost like not you were able to give it to her, but that like, you know, God gave you this series of events in your life where you get to see your mom play with this and you're like, man, that almost could have been me. But it does get to be me, like in a weird way, like.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, that's exactly right. I feel like it's a gift that God gave to us where we get to have this second chance with mom.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And, you know, we get to. Wouldn't necessarily relied on mom when I was 12 or 13 because she was still, you know, still caught up in addiction. But now, like, we'll leave our kids with mom.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[J.D. Vance]

And like, being able to rely on her is just a very, it's a very cool thing. You know, my wife, I remember when Our kids were first born or was born in 2017, and at that point, mom had been clean and sober for about a year and a half, I guess. And, like, I remember talking with my wife, and she's saying, like, I love your mom. I hope that she stays clean and sober. But, like, we're never letting her babysit.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. It's literally right.

[J.D. Vance]

Little early, but now, like, we trust her with all three of them.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[J.D. Vance]

It's an amazing thing, man.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. And now with three kids, you'll give them to anybody to watch, you know what I'm saying? If you got spiritual.

[J.D. Vance]

That's true. That's right. No, we.

[Theo Von]

But no, that's. I think that's really cool. I could just imagine. I could imagine, like, you getting to see, like, your kids be with your mom, and this. It just, like, completing the aid or whatever. You know, I'm saying, like, that symbol or whatever, you know, infinity symbol or whatever.

[J.D. Vance]

You know, I can really see that.

[Theo Von]

It's pretty powerful. Yeah, it's important. That's the power of, like, things you see through recovery and stuff, too. You know, it's like that people get to just have a different life, you know, it's like you witness it all the time in the. In the meetings and stuff. I do, anyway.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, there's something. There's something very redemptive about it, man.

[Theo Von]

If you want to hear a miracle or something. You want to see a miracle, Go to a meeting.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

You know, I'm saying you get to see. I mean, and it very much is like church. It's like sometimes people are like, you don't go to church Sometimes. I'm like, dude, I go to four. I go to church four times a week, at least. Yeah, right. I got.

[J.D. Vance]

Good for you.

[Theo Von]

It's like, that's. Those meetings. It really is. It's like you get everything you could get out of. I mean, you witness God's work just through other people, you know, I mean, much less outside of possibly in your own life.

[J.D. Vance]

And there, the testimonials you hear at meetings and the courage it takes somebody who's been clean for two days to walk in and bid on a boat. Strangers and bid on a. Yeah. Or to sell a boat. Yeah, I've got.

[Theo Von]

No, I'm joking. I didn't mean to interrupt you there.

[J.D. Vance]

I got rid of my cocaine, and now I've got a boat. You want to buy it? Oh, man.

[Theo Von]

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[J.D. Vance]

If you're not advocating for prices and transparency in health care, you are compromising.

[Theo Von]

Every single American across this country.

[J.D. Vance]

Because when we can't see prices, hospitals.

[Theo Von]

Insurance and their middleman charge just whatever they want. Our very own healthcare system is robbing all of us. We just need the prices.

[J.D. Vance]

That's how our economy works. If you want to do right by.

[Theo Von]

Workers, employers and unions, then you got to do right by the people they represent and the families who depend upon them.

[J.D. Vance]

And we got to hear it.

[Theo Von]

Prices now. Power to the patients. Oh dude, did you ever listen to Jelly Roll?

[J.D. Vance]

It's funny, I met Jelly Roll at the United States Senate because I'm on the Banking Committee. He came and gave and what was.

[Theo Von]

He trying to get pardoned for something?

[J.D. Vance]

No, I don't think so at least. But he was. He did a. Like, he was a witness at a hearing of the Senate Banking Committee.

[Theo Von]

Oh, I think I saw that on C Span or something. And that was a joke. Jelly. He knows. It was.

[J.D. Vance]

He was. He was really good. I talked to him briefly. I'm sure he doesn't remember. He does remember, but I thought he gave, like, some very interesting testimony. He talked about the fentanyl issue a little bit. I want to say. You maybe talked about homelessness a little bit, but I remember him talking about fentanyl. And. Yeah. He's got an amazing life. I mean, talk about a guy who had a much tougher life than I did. That's Jelly Roll.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. That's a great point. Yeah. Yeah. He's a magic man. When you. And when you talk to him, it's just like watching Pure. It's just genuine.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

That's what it is. It's like a. It's like clean water. It's like what we used to have in a lot of our rivers. It's like. That's what he is.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

He's just genuine. I mean, it.

[J.D. Vance]

Like, genuine human being.

[Theo Von]

He'll tear up at anything. It's just. Because. It's just. What's in him is just real.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

You know, he's a genuine guy.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

That actually leads me pretty good into this next part. I want to talk about some stuff I wrote down.

[J.D. Vance]

Okay.

[Theo Von]

Because I wanted to be clear, and this is important. So you're from a region that was firsthand devastated by the Money Lizard Sackler family. Right. Which, like, you know, which Purdue Pharma and everything that happened with OxyContin, like, over 500,000 people died at the hands of them.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

And big, big problem. Yeah. Unbelievable. Right? And it compromised, like, you know, they use loopholes, all types of stuff, to. To be able to keep that company going. Right. And really to keep killing people. I mean, it seemed undeniable at a certain point that they were murderers.

[J.D. Vance]

It was legalized. Drug dealing is what it was on an industrial scale. I mean, made billions and billions of dollars.

[Theo Von]

They just got like a slap on the. Like, they got a financial slap on the wrist. Right.

[J.D. Vance]

Very tiny.

[Theo Von]

But why. Why can't we? Shouldn't they be kicked out of our country? It feels like if we can let in 20 million people into our country. Right. That shouldn't be here or that are not, like, vetted properly to be.

[J.D. Vance]

They don't have the legal right to be here.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[J.D. Vance]

I agree. I would say they shouldn't be Here.

[Theo Von]

But why can't we put those motherfuckers on a boat and send them back to wherever the fuck they came from?

[J.D. Vance]

That's a good question, man. Look, I think that frankly, and I.

[Theo Von]

Mean that angrily at you, but it's.

[J.D. Vance]

Like, oh, man, I'm pissed off about it, too.

[Theo Von]

Like, at what point do people lose the opportunity to be here? It seemed like if you killed 500,000 people, you wouldn't be able to hang out anymore.

[J.D. Vance]

Or maybe at least you should have a criminal investigation. Right? Because that's the thing that's always. I've always. I mean, like, the Sackler family clearly got rich off of an extraordinary amount of human misery and death.

[Theo Von]

Okay, where are they from? Bring it up real quick.

[J.D. Vance]

I want to say they're from New York, maybe, or they're from the Northeast.

[Theo Von]

I'm pretty sure the Sackler family originated from Galasia in Poland, and their ancestors were Jewish immigrants. Isaac Sackler, Brooklyn, New York. Oh, and then they lived in Brooklyn, New York.

[J.D. Vance]

That's why I thought they were from New York, Connecticut. I mean, look, the thing that I've never understood about them is that they did get fined, but the fine was such a tiny amount.

[Theo Von]

There's a couple billion compared to what they.

[J.D. Vance]

But they made tens and tens of millions of dollars. I mean, these guys were absolutely rolling in the dough. But they. Like, why isn't there a criminal investigation into this? Right? Like, if I sold drugs on the street and some person has an overdose and died, like, you can get felony prosecuted for that or at least investigated for it. And there was never a criminal. At least, as I understand it, never a criminal investigation into what was known.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I think they had a breach of plea deal of some sort.

[J.D. Vance]

Okay.

[Theo Von]

As the nation continues to grapple with, the Sackler family had agreed to pay $6 billion to families and states as part of an agreement to wind down Purdue Pharma, the maker of OxyContin exchanges. Sackard family would be immunized from future civil liability claims. Unreal.

[J.D. Vance]

Because here's my understanding about it. And by the way, I think that you always got to be worried about this stuff. When you're the child of addiction is, like, whether it's drugs, alcohol, whatever you're worried about making sure you do yourself. Don't be hooked on anything. Right. I had a minor surgery once, and a very minor surgery, and I was prescribed Oxycontin, and I took it for 12 hours.

[Theo Von]

Got any left?

[J.D. Vance]

Sorry, no. Because of my wife. Because of what I'm about to tell you and my wife, who was giving me my meds, she was like, hey, are you ready for your next dose? And I was like, yeah, the pain's not really that bad anymore. I don't really want to take one, but, yeah, just give me one, because I feel really good when I take it. And then she and I both had this moment of realization, like, oh, shit. Right. That is where this whole thing starts. Cause she took it to wherever, some disposal site, and we got rid of it, and that was it. But the problem with oxycontin, as I understand it at least, is that it's supposed to be delayed release oxycodone. But the problem is people figured out if you just crush it up, then you can just get it all at once.

[Theo Von]

All released right now.

[J.D. Vance]

All release right now. And then the Sackler families, I understand it, knew about it. Purdue Pharma knew this was going on, and they should have been like, oh, no, no. Okay, we're gonna stop this. Because people are getting killed by overdosing all this stuff because they're taking too high of a dose and they didn't do anything.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

Like, that is my understanding fundamentally of what happened, is they didn't want to stop because they were getting rich from it. Oh, yeah, It's. Man, it's really gross.

[Theo Von]

I just couldn't imagine that. Imagine people dying, and you're making money, but people are dying. Family. The ripple effect of that in this country is still. It's still haunting people.

[J.D. Vance]

Absolutely. And that's where the heroin epidemic, which is now a fentanyl epidemic, came from. It started there as a pill epidemic. And it actually was like, I always used to think it was okay, kind of like me, like, oh, you have surgery and you get too many drugs and then eventually you get hooked. What it actually was is they were overprescribing it so much that it was just everywhere. Right. And so, like, oh, your nephew comes over and he's 17, and he takes some to his buddies, and now they're all hooked on oxy. And that's like, that's what actually happened. And there was just so much of this drug everywhere that it started the epidemic we have now.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. And the outside, it was like candy coat. It was like you just had to slurp off the outside a little bit and then you could party.

[J.D. Vance]

Oh, so I didn't realize that.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I think you just had to slurp.

[J.D. Vance]

I heard about people crushing. I didn't know if you just had to slurp off the outside.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I Think you did. And. Yeah, yeah. And, yeah. And one of the worst things about it was that, like, medicine used to be a term that was like, it was for help, right? Yes, it was like. And it was in our brains, I think, as humans and citizens in our society and culture, medicine was help. Right?

[J.D. Vance]

Yes.

[Theo Von]

And that whole thing with them kind of tripped that word where it made it. It made people question the value of medicine.

[J.D. Vance]

Absolutely.

[Theo Von]

It may be made people just question then who's prescribing the medicine. It made health. It made, like, your doctors seem un trustworthy. It just. It ruined so much trust.

[J.D. Vance]

That's absolutely right. Ruined a lot of social trust. And I agree. I think they deserve a ton of blame for that. And it's interesting, though, that was maybe the first point. The oxy epidemic was sort of the first point where I started to question the mainstream big Pharma narrative a little bit. And I always ask myself, and I think this is something. I'm Republican, I'm conservative, but one of the things that I think the old left was pretty smart about is like recognizing that when money gets involved, when the profit motive gets involved in health, that can lead to good things. Right. It could lead to people trying to cure cancer because they know they're going to make a lot of money if they cure cancer. I'm fine with that. Right. But people making money, if they cure cancer, that's a great thing. But then also, sometimes it can lead to manipulation of the health system that doesn't actually benefit people's health, but does get people hooked on a lot of drugs that they wouldn't otherwise need? And this was something, again, the old left understood this, that, like, well, you gotta be careful. Like, are we prescribing this medication because it's good for people? Cause that's good. Or are we prescribing it because some big pharmaceutical company is getting rich if we do, and they're putting pressure on the government or somebody else to encourage us to prescribe this medication? And I think there are a whole host of ways in which, frankly, the old left was right about that. And I've tried to persuade modern conservatives that we should be more concerned about that issue. It's like Bobby Kennedy makes this point all the time. Good. Some pharmaceuticals are good for us, but some actually. It's not totally clear whether we're taking them just because it makes people money. Let me give you a concrete example. There's obviously this big debate about transgender issues, and you don't have to wade into that. But what really worries Me is when you've got pharmaceutical companies that are making billions of dollars on hormonal therapies for kids. And are we really, like, are we really being smart about whether this is good for the kids, about whether it causes long term consequences? And why is nobody saying, well, wait a second, the people who are lobbying us to give these drugs to kids are also getting rich off of it. Right? And I just, I worry about that.

[Theo Von]

I mean, you just follow the money motive. Yeah, man, it definitely, of course they would want that because it's just another other way. It's like, well, how do we split the atom here again to make even more money off of somebody? Well, why not your gender? You know what I'm saying? You're not using it.

[J.D. Vance]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

You know, you're like, what do you mean I'm not using my generate. I'm trying, I'm trying to. I'm still developing it. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And you're gonna like. But I agree. It's like a couple of my buddies secretly low key date trans people, right? And I don't care if any somebody's trans or Neapolitan or whatever. I don't, I don't care. You know what I'm saying? Hell, if I had a vagina, I would probably wouldn't go looking for women, you know, so there's probably some up. Some up to it. But what I'm talking about is. Shit, I don't know what I'm talking about.

[J.D. Vance]

Look, man, if you're an adult, but.

[Theo Von]

Look where the money, like, look at.

[J.D. Vance]

Follow the money. We're talking about kids. Follow the money.

[Theo Von]

Think about what's going on. Like, are the people pushing this? What is their real? Or do they have some other motive? You have to think about that, you know?

[J.D. Vance]

Well, that's why, I mean, like you mentioned Ozempic earlier, which, you know, I've known a couple friends who've taken it. I've never taken Ozempic or, you know, any weight loss kind of drug.

[Theo Von]

Oh, it got. It ended up having a black market. There was somebody selling it outside of a Vineyard Vines illegally or something over there outside of Charlottesville.

[J.D. Vance]

Outside of Vineyard Vines. Breaks my heart the most. That's the perfect encapsulation.

[Theo Von]

It breaks my heart. Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

Vineyard. Fine, sell.

[Theo Von]

She was a Kappa Delta. Somebody said she was a Kappa Delta. I don't know.

[J.D. Vance]

Oh my God.

[Theo Von]

But it's just that kind of stuff. Shakespeare, J.D.

[J.D. Vance]

That'S really. That's dark shit, man. That's dark. That's that's darker than a lot of what goes on in politics. A Kappa Delta selling Ozempic black market off outside of Vineyard Vines. I'm gonna have nightmares.

[Theo Von]

They call it Fozempic.

[J.D. Vance]

But I, you know, I like, worry. Okay, so America has a terrible obesity problem.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[J.D. Vance]

And I'm not. Look, I'm not a doctor. I'm not telling. If your doctor tells you to take Ozempic. Follow your doctor's advice. Not what you're hearing from me on a podcast.

[Theo Von]

It's thick. I don't mind it a little. You know.

[J.D. Vance]

What I worry about is, okay, you create a problem and then you medicate to solve the problem instead of maybe solving the underlying problem. Right. Why don't we try to understand why it is that we have a terrible obesity epidemic rather than just giving people another pill to pop?

[Theo Von]

Well, it's also. We get used to that then after a while, and then it's hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

[J.D. Vance]

That's exactly right.

[Theo Von]

That's one of the tough examples. And that's where more of like a kind of a bigger look at that. Like. Yeah, it's like how much personal responsibility. It's like, that's something I struggle with sometimes. My brother and I talk about this sometimes, like, you know, people have problems and specifically, even like thinking about the OxyContin thing, like, they created a medicine that was so strong that even your ability, your God given ability to be able to battle against it, like, you'd be in AA rooms and you'd see people that came in from opioid. And it was something different than alcoholism.

[J.D. Vance]

Exactly right.

[Theo Von]

It wasn't alcohol. It wasn't. It was addiction, but it was something different. It was like.

[J.D. Vance]

That's right.

[Theo Von]

These people, it's zombied. These people, it's like. It's like they created this. This skip card in Uno or something. It was like. So at that point, like, what were we talking about?

[J.D. Vance]

I had a good idea talking about opioids. The effect it has on people's brains. Pharmaceutical companies making money from. We're talking about Ozempic putting the toothpaste back in the tube.

[Theo Von]

Right, Right. Personal responsibility.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. Yes. Okay.

[Theo Von]

You were almost there. Sorry. You helped me. You laid all the breadcrumbs, dude. That's good, man. So.

[J.D. Vance]

But yeah, I'm here to help, man. It's your next vice president. I'll live to serve however I can.

[Theo Von]

You just helped me right there. But yeah, it's like. But then they created something that was so powerful it kind of exceeded our ability, our natural ability to be able to fight against it. Right. So at that point, personal responsibility kind of isn't. It's. It's still there, but it's not exactly fair because you're allowing a company to create something that you can't naturally compete against.

[J.D. Vance]

It turns you into a zombie.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

I mean, really.

[Theo Von]

Sorry, that took so long. My brain.

[J.D. Vance]

No, man. No, I know exactly what you mean. And it's like, one thing to sort of take a pill so your pain goes away, or you take a pill because you've got a lung infection. The lung infection goes away, or like, whatever. When something can so fundamentally transform your personality and your sense of, you know, ambition and reward, like, what do you. What do you call it?

[Theo Von]

Medicine, then?

[J.D. Vance]

It's.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, it's not a medicine.

[J.D. Vance]

It's very. It's very, very weird.

[Theo Von]

Like, that's the thing. It's not a medicine. That is a drug.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. And I mean, my mom, like, to her great credit, man, I don't know how she does this, because, look, there are some things where you really do need a strong pain medication. Right. And I forget something happened a couple years ago where they were like, you know, maybe she had some infection, but they really wanted to give her oxy, and she was just like, no, I refuse to take it. So for a couple days, I mean, she was in agonizing pain, but she just took Advil, took Tylenol, and she was fine.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And she. And she. And she persevered through it. But, man, you're right. The stuff, it just. Yeah. It's like. It changes not just your personality, but it changes whether you can take care of yourself and other people. Right. Like, for most normal people, there's this thing where it's like, oh, oh, crap, I'm not taking care of my kids. My kids need me. I gotta change something. Right? But if you're on opioids, it's like it flips a switch off where, yeah, I'm not taking care of my kids, but maybe I don't give a shit because the drugs have so affected my brain.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. I think that's it, man. And with that. So staying in the health. In, like, medical and healthcare thoughts. Yeah. One of the major. And I wrote this down so I could say it clearly and to just save everybody time is listening. One of the major bipartisan issues that's plaguing Americans is the health care system, which has become outrageously expensive. Right. It's. It's unaffordable. It's Inaccessible by millions of Americans. We're overpaying hospitals and insurance companies that hide their prices.

[J.D. Vance]

Yes.

[Theo Von]

And they charge us whatever they want.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Patients overpay, workers overpay, companies overpay, the taxpayers overpay. On this podcast, Bernie Sanders came on and he stressed the need for a health care price transparency. Donald Trump did the same thing. He had an executive order.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

I think it's still in place. That demands price transparency. Mark Cuban stressed the need for healthcare price transparency. How do we not have real prices and transparency in healthcare, knowing that it's exactly what America needs so that our healthcare system will be honest and affordable and accessible?

[J.D. Vance]

Well, you're right that we should have it. And the reason that we don't is unfortunately, because there are a lot of power, powerful people who get rich off of keeping these things secret. And so they don't want transparency. They don't want sunshine.

[Theo Von]

You can say Chuck Schumer if you want. I won't say it.

[J.D. Vance]

Well, I mean, look, you're right, though. Like, obviously Bernie and I are on the same team politically, but there are some healthcare things like price transparency, where actually, I think he and President Trump are both right, that there's nothing that you. I mean, you go to Starbucks, right. You buy coffee, you know how much you're getting, you know how much it's costing you. I remember when my wife, I think it was her second baby, where you get pain medications when you're delivering a baby, at least most people do, because it's a very painful experience. And there was some weird thing where the doctor that she chose was out of network and she didn't real. I mean, you're not checking whether the doctor's in network at the time. You're just sort of choosing a doctor. And then we come home and we have a $15,000 unexpected bill because she chose the wrong doctor an hour before she delivers a baby. And it's like, this is totally crazy. And we're in a situation where that was not a big deal for us. We were able to afford it. But think about a normal middle class family goes and has a baby and comes home to a medical bill that's like a fifth of their entire take home pay that year. Right. That's crazy.

[Theo Von]

Oh, the number one cause of bankruptcy in America is medical debt.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. It's a huge, huge problem. And I think the price transparency is a big part of it. But you asked, like, why hasn't it happened? Because every time that we try to force price transparency, the service providers, the insurance companies, or the pharmaceutical companies don't actually want that transparency. Here's one of the reasons why the pharmaceutical companies don't want transparency. It's because if Americans, if we realized how much more we were paying for pharmaceuticals over the Europeans, there would be a revolution in this country.

[Theo Von]

We pay a lot more than them.

[J.D. Vance]

We pay way more than them. And again, like my attitude is I am fine with people, you know, if you invent a life saving cancer drug, I'm fine with people earning a great profit for doing something amazing like that. You want to motivate people to do it in the first place. Right. And a lot of people are obviously motivated by that profit motive. But if you take certain drugs that are, they cost $100 in the United States of America and they're way, way cheaper in Europe. Or some of these really expensive multi thousand dollar cancer. Bring them up.

[Theo Von]

Bring something up for me.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, these really expensive, like next generation cancer therapeutics, they cost way less in Europe.

[Theo Von]

This says in 2022, US prices across all drugs, brands and generics were nearly 2.78 times as high as prices in the comparison countries. US prices for brand drugs were at least 3.22 times as high as prices in the comparison countries, even after adjustments for estimated US rebates. Wow. Does it show those countries? Is there a chart with that or. No, I love it.

[J.D. Vance]

It's OECD countries, which is mainly Europe. Those are the advanced economies, basically.

[Theo Von]

Okay, that's what that means.

[J.D. Vance]

The rich countries, basically.

[Theo Von]

Oecd.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

And what, so first world countries probably.

[J.D. Vance]

Basically.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. So Canada probably. Israel's in there. A lot of the, a lot of the European countries I think are all in ocd.

[Theo Von]

Okay. United States, Germany, Canada, Japan. Sweat Surlin, Switzerland.

[J.D. Vance]

I can't see that. Terrible. Yes, I've heard of that.

[Theo Von]

Comparable county average.

[J.D. Vance]

You're screwing with me.

[Theo Von]

Austria. Well, I think they misspelled it, dude. There's not that many zits in it. Australia. United Kingdom of Sweden. Wow. So we pay per capita spending on prescription drugs in 2019. 900. And what does per capita mean?

[J.D. Vance]

Just per person.

[Theo Von]

Okay. Per person, $963 per person. Whereas in Sweden, 270. United Kingdom, $273.

[J.D. Vance]

Dude. Yeah. That's crazy, right?

[Theo Von]

Yeah. That's not fair, dude.

[J.D. Vance]

That's not fair.

[Theo Von]

They colonize everybody and they're paying cheaper for dope.

[J.D. Vance]

That's exactly right. But again, but again, the reason we don't really know what we're paying here is because, you know, because they hide it. They hide It. They hide it, and they don't want to let people know, because if you let people know, then they would demand to pay less. But something President Trump approprosed, for example, I think is a very good idea, is that he proposed reimporting drugs from Europe. Basically, if they're selling it in Sweden or wherever for $270 per person and we're paying $963 per person, then we'll just buy it in Sweden and bring it in the United States.

[Theo Von]

I love that.

[J.D. Vance]

Right? That was a big, big thing. Of course, the pharmaceutical companies don't like that.

[Theo Von]

That's why. That's why they tried to assassinate him twice, bro.

[J.D. Vance]

Well, it's. That's probably one of the things that could happen. I, of course, have no idea, no inside knowledge into what drove the motives of the assassins. Oh, yeah.

[Theo Von]

I'm just joking. But I wouldn't be shocked. That's a lot of money.

[J.D. Vance]

And I wouldn't be shocked if there's some really dark stuff out there. Cause, look, two separate people have tried to take a swing at this guy in about three months.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

Like. Well, you know, they didn't like Donald Trump. Right. Because they wouldn't have tried to shoot him if they liked him. But I wouldn't be the first guy who went after Trump. I hate to put on the tinfoil hat here, but we've not been unable to get into his phone. We know that he had all these foreign encrypted apps on his cell phone. It is crazy to me that we don't know the guy's motive. It's nuts. He almost killed the president.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And we don't know why he did it. We don't know anything about the guy.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah. They're like, he had a lunchbox or something. It's like the vaguest information they keep putting out about the guy. He's been using a library car. We're like, who lives.

[J.D. Vance]

Exactly. His mom's name was Sharon. It's like, great, thank you.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, dude. Yeah. They're like, oh, he. Yeah, they're like, oh, he was a Colts fan.

[J.D. Vance]

You're like, who gives a shit?

[Theo Von]

Yeah, that's exactly. Information.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. You know?

[Theo Von]

So how do we stop that? Do you get. Do you get approached by lobbyists and stuff like that?

[J.D. Vance]

Like, all the time.

[Theo Von]

Do you really? And what does that look like? Who are they? What are they wearing?

[J.D. Vance]

Like, how so. Lobbyists. Here's how you spot them. Okay. They're always wearing poorly fitted suits with extremely ugly ties. So if you Go out and you see a guy with a poorly fitting suit and extremely ugly tie. He's definitely a lobbyist.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[J.D. Vance]

Okay. It's like in Happy Gilmore.

[Theo Von]

He's a lobbyist for big fabric. Huh. It sounds like it's like in Happy.

[J.D. Vance]

Gilmore where the guy's like, you know, the coach is trying to get Happy Gilmore to play golf. And Happy's like, you know, you know what you need to play golf is goofy. Goofy pants and a fat ass. That's what you need to be a lobbyist is goofy pants and that.

[Theo Von]

But why can't we. If everybody knows, by the way, I like golf.

[J.D. Vance]

I'm going to be clear. I like golf. Do you like golf?

[Theo Von]

I'm not that good at it.

[J.D. Vance]

Okay.

[Theo Von]

I'll play when I get a little bit older. I don't want to slow people down.

[J.D. Vance]

Okay.

[Theo Von]

Right now.

[J.D. Vance]

Fair point.

[Theo Von]

You know, but anyway.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, so, okay.

[Theo Von]

The way that Brooks Capcom.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, I do too.

[Theo Von]

He's cool.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, he's like a cool dude.

[Theo Von]

And I like that girl that smokes, that plays Dude Puffer McGavin or whatever.

[J.D. Vance]

I advise only for one woman. Theo. I've got. I've only my wife.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, no, I like her.

[J.D. Vance]

You don't have to know.

[Theo Von]

You can like her.

[J.D. Vance]

No comment. No comment. No comment from senator I know were talking about.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, she's like hot.

[J.D. Vance]

John D. So John Daly doesn't really do it for you. He's a good. He's a good dude, though.

[Theo Von]

Oh, no, I like John, man. Definitely. Oh, if you need a ride in an ambulance, hang out with John. You'll get one in heartbeat. And I. I'm just joking. I think.

[J.D. Vance]

I think it was Tiger. Also.

[Theo Von]

It's true. I've been at two places where John's been taken. One time they came in looking for him. He went out there and was sitting in the shotgun.

[J.D. Vance]

It's awesome.

[Theo Von]

And like, where is.

[J.D. Vance]

Oh, my God.

[Theo Von]

He tried to help you guys out.

[J.D. Vance]

Oh, that is so funny.

[Theo Von]

He's a legend. He's got to come on here soon. But how do we stop that? If all the senators in congress people know it, like Bernie Sanders said, there's three times as many lobbyists in D.C. as there are congressmen and senators, Then why don't we get that out? Like, okay, here's why doesn't it stop? Like, if all you guys know it and everybody's supposed to be working for the people, then why doesn't it stop?

[J.D. Vance]

So I actually think that we're getting a little bit better compared to maybe 10 years ago. And people have no idea how much Washington was just completely run by lobbyists. And, you know, you think about like, guy on the left like Bernie Sanders, but most importantly, a guy on the right like Donald Trump completely blows the existing system up. And this is, by the way, like, what I realized because I wasn't a Trump guy back in 2016, and obviously I'm his running mate now, so I really like him. What people don't realize is back in 2016, how much lobbyist money and influence there was that wanted to destroy Donald Trump. They hated the guy because he didn't owe anything to them. He didn't come from the existing political process. And if you look at some of the younger guys who have come in, we're much more just open about the fact that lobbyist influence is out there. You can't be in D.C. without running into these people. But you got to be honest with people. Like, I'm not going to let this person write a piece of legislation for me. I'm not going to let this person dictate how I vote. And yeah, I've gotten some, definitely some criticisms from the lobbyist groups in D.C. some of them will say, well, you know, we don't know if we can trust this guy. And that's fine with me. I'm okay. I'm okay with him.

[Theo Von]

Trust you fucking good.

[J.D. Vance]

Exactly.

[Theo Von]

You're doing your job.

[J.D. Vance]

That's exactly right. That's my exact attitude towards it.

[Theo Von]

They don't know if he can trust you. Who gives a fuck?

[J.D. Vance]

Exactly. That's exactly right. But that is how the town works, is that if you come in and you don't always take their meetings, you don't always do what they want you to, then they'll start whispering about you. And then they can get articles written about you, they can have people say bad shit about you. This is why people call it the corporate media is if you pick up a story in the Washington Post and you read it, and here's this anonymous source said this, this anonymous source said that there is a 98% chance that the person who's attacking Donald Trump is on the take somehow for sure, whether it's a lobbyist or whether it's a political consultant. It's all dishonest, money laundering bullshit. That's all DC ultimately is, is people who get paid to offer an opinion instead of having a real opinion. Here's the thing that I think we need to fix structurally about this. So let me give you an example. You know, my Senate staff has probably 40 or so people, and you know, all extremely good people. My staff tends to be a little bit younger because I'm one of the youngest. I'm the second youngest US Senator right now. And you know, like, if I wanted to pay my Chief of Staff $30,000 more a year than what I pay them right now, I'm not allowed by law. So even though I'm a senator and I was elected to represent the people of Ohio, I'm not allowed to control who I pay and how I pay them. It's all sort of set by law. And here's the bigger issue, is that if you think about it, a lot of these big important laws are very complicated, right? They've got 800 pages, 900 pages, and I think the law should be simpler. But if you've got a 900 page law and you've got a bunch of junior staffers who don't know the town very well and they don't make a whole lot of money, then the people who are writing the laws are not going to be your junior staffers. It's going to be the lobby. And we've seen this multiple times with legislation that I've drafted where the lobbyists will actually ask to get into the draft of the law and make changes for you and say, well, yeah, we'll justify. No, no, no, no, no. I want my staff that works for me to write the laws that I'm drafting. But I actually think that we need to empower senators and congressmen to hire who they want to make a bigger staff if they want. Because if you think about it, the amount of staff a congressman has, a congresswoman has, is a fraction of the federal budget. I mean, we're talking about like a percent of a percent of a penny on the federal budget. And so we could actually give people the staff that they need to be able to actually write the laws and to make sure the lobbyists don't have much influence. And you ask like, who are the lobbyists? Okay, the lobbyists are the people who are really good staffers. And then the staffers want to buy a nicer house and they want to start a family and they can't. D.C. is a very expensive town. I mean, a one bedroom apartment in D.C. will easily run you $4,000 a month. Right now it's just a very expensive town. So then those people go and become lobbyists. They trade in their public service for a fat check. And I think that we gotta fix something about that, right?

[Theo Von]

It's the same thing that happened with oxycontin. And they got the people that were working with the FDA to come and work for them.

[J.D. Vance]

That's exactly right. That is exactly right. So it happens at our Congress, it happens with our big bureaucratic agencies. And I think we have to fix something about that. Like we want the people in our government to be public spirited and focused on doing the public good. I don't think that this system that we have works very well where, you know, you do public service for a little bit and then you jump and go make a million dollars a year as a lobbyist.

[Theo Von]

Right?

[J.D. Vance]

No, no, no, no, no. I think you gotta separate those functions much better than you have right now.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Because then like being a public servant is just a junior college for becoming a lobbyist.

[J.D. Vance]

It seems like that is a big worry that I have, especially with my staff. I mean, these are really smart, really good guys. And a big part of what I think about is, a big part of what I think about is how am I gonna keep these guys as they get more senior, as they become better at their job, as they become better at figuring out what a lobbyist is trying to sell them a bill of goods. Right. That's a skill. Right. And you acquire that skill over time.

[Theo Von]

When they can just spend whatever they want when they're the Yankees.

[J.D. Vance]

That's exactly right. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Damn. Shit, dude, we're all going to be addicted.

[J.D. Vance]

No, we're not, man.

[Theo Von]

I'm telling you, we're going.

[J.D. Vance]

I'm telling you we're actually going in the right direction. This is what people don't. And I recognize you play have of your millions of listeners something. Some people love Trump and some people hate him, but the thing that Trump really changed about D.C. is that he was not beholden to the moneyed interests.

[Theo Von]

Oh, well, that's one thing that I also like about Bobby Kennedy that I mean, I've known Bobby for years. Bobby's been a friend of mine for years. I knew him before I thought Audi was going to be do politics.

[J.D. Vance]

He's a good dude, man. I like Bobby.

[Theo Von]

He used to hold meetings at his house on Tuesdays and we would go to him in his backyard. Dude. And one of his dogs always was slobbering stuff on me. Was a huge dog. It might not even have been a dog because he has a lot of animals.

[J.D. Vance]

What would it have been then?

[Theo Von]

I don't know, dude, but he's had a lot of animals over the years, Bobby. And he can afford probably what was.

[J.D. Vance]

This baby dog that was slobbered all.

[Theo Von]

Over Theo but He doesn't need anything else. He's got a great name, he's got a cool wife, he's got. He doesn't. He's always cared about just making people healthy. Is he wrong sometimes on things? Sure, he probably is, just like anybody else.

[J.D. Vance]

Everybody's wrong. But I'd fucking.

[Theo Von]

And I'd rather have somebody just raise their hand and ask questions like, absolutely. That's one thing that I just love about him, that he's not beholding to any of these people.

[J.D. Vance]

You know, the thing that I hate about politics and just media culture in this country right now, man, is people are so afraid of saying anything that's unconventional. They're afraid of thinking thoughts that you're not allowed to think. Like, the biggest ideas come from people who just follow the truth, Right? And yeah, sometimes they're going to be wrong, sometimes they're not going to get everything right. But we've got to stop punishing people like Bobby Kennedy for saying, well, maybe this doesn't work. Yeah, hey, what about that? Exactly like that. Hey, what about. That is something we have to preserve. And I do feel like we're trying to do. We're kind of destroying it. This is so. I'm going to sound like an old man, but this is what I think is really jacked up about social media is. Okay, we're all social animals, right? We're all influenced by people around us. Oh, yeah, but look, 30 years ago, an opinion, it would take it many, many days before an opinion became the accepted conventional wisdom. You know, you'd have to be repeated in one newspaper and then repeated in another newspaper and people would talk about it. Now you can have something happen on social media, it's viral, and 10 minutes later you've got like the social media feeding frenzy that says, well, here's this thing that I came up with 10 minutes ago. And if you don't agree with that thing I came up with 10 minutes ago, then there's going to be a feeding frenzy attacking you, attacking your family, finding out where you worked and attack it. Trying to attack your employer for keeping you in a job. That is a really jacked up thing. To take the normal human social impulse to want to be liked and to want to make friends and to put it all on the Internet where it operates at the speed of light. I think there's something very deranged about that.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's also. It's like, we do. Are you a repeater or are you a thinker? Like, yes, that's the Thing. It's like we get so preoccupied now and so occupied so quickly that we don't even put it through our own filter.

[J.D. Vance]

It's exactly right.

[Theo Von]

And it's like. And then our filter starts to not even be a filter anymore because it's like, well, nobody's using me. I'll just, I'm just a pathway now.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

And that's what starts to happen. That's how we all start to become desensitized to everything and we just become repeaters.

[J.D. Vance]

Right. That's exactly what social media does, is it just turns us all into repeaters. I like that Bobby Kennedy is sort of willing to say, no, no, no, I'm actually going to think for myself on this topic. I mean, it is crazy. Why do we have such a terrible obesity problem? Why do we have all these like, you know, certain types of diabetes are on the rise among children today. It's like, okay, we're the richest country in the history of the world and you know, children are getting diseases that they didn't get 30, 40 years ago. Like somebody should be saying what the hell is going on?

[Theo Von]

Or like, yeah, somebody should and it should be our leaders. But it feels like there's so much compromisation in there.

[J.D. Vance]

I mean, dude, dude, do you know, okay, this is a paper by a Nobel. Yeah, yeah, we'll take a few more minutes now we're just having fun. But there's a paper by a Nobel prize winning economist that talks about the return to education in years of life. And do you know how much take a person who's got a four year degree versus a person who never went to college? Do you know how much longer the person with a four year degree lives in the United States of America right now? Seven years.

[Theo Von]

Seven years longer.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. So going to college you get rewarded with seven years of additional life. If that doesn't tell you something is seriously fucked up in our country, then nothing will. Right? That is not okay. And it's part of it, it's health. Part of it's that people are working more dangerous jobs if they don't have a college degree. But part of it's just that we have, I think, made it so hard to get by in our country if you don't have a four year degree, that people are, they're not making enough money to support their families and they get stressed out, then they turn to addiction. Of course addiction happens to everybody, but it's much more common among those without a college degree. So I just, this to me is like, what Is this campaign about, like, what is Trump being president about is fixing the big problems, not like the bullshit fake problems that the media gets us to focus on, not the slogans. But why are people dying seven years earlier if they don't have a college degree? Why do we have this historic obesity epidemic in the richest country in the world? Why do we have wars breaking out like crazy all over the world? Why do pharmaceutical companies get rich by forcing therapeutics that aren't even always good for us? Right. These are big, big, big issues that frankly, I think absent Trump, we wouldn't even be talking about this stuff.

[Theo Von]

Well, I mean, I definitely think that one of the things that certainly excited me about Trump when he first was running was, wow, this guy is rogue. And you know what? And this whole thing is so messed up now that that's what you. I would, I, I hated politics so much. I just, I hated that I was like, I would hire a. I would hire a Muppet to go in there with a hammer.

[J.D. Vance]

That's right.

[Theo Von]

I would hire a Muppet with a hammer if I could vote for a Muppet with a hammer. And that's how most people feel. It's like it doesn't even feel like it's working for us anymore. So what does it even matter? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, so that's why I think Bobby, that's one thing that I did, that's one thing that I thought was pretty amazing about bringing Bobby Kennedy into you guys campaign, is that he's a sheriff for that kind of. He really is, you know, for caring, I think, for just, for genuinely caring about people. Because I know, I know he cares about people. It's like I have friends that don't care about me. They're still my friends, some of them. But he's a friend that is a caring guy.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely right.

[Theo Von]

So that is, I think, why I've vowed for him a lot. Yeah. I had one more thing. Let me see. Oh, the polls and stuff.

[J.D. Vance]

Okay.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah, I've been looking at the polls recently.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

And especially at Halsey is a place where I look at them.

[J.D. Vance]

Okay. This is the betting market stuff.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. They're a website and an app where people can bet money on regular happenings, like in society. Like not just political stuff, anything from like politics to entertainment. And I think it's a good tracker in a capitalistic society because it's people putting their money down. Right. So it's people saying, this is what I think. Right. With my money, as opposed to just other Polls. What, what's the latest on there? What does it say?

[J.D. Vance]

Oh, it says Trump is 57, Kamal.

[Theo Von]

Is 43, Trump 57%.

[J.D. Vance]

That's pretty good.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, that's pretty good. Does it say the total amount of money that people have bet or not yet? Oh, it says $32,917,000 has been put out there on this. It's just. Yeah, so that's why I like to follow their stuff. Just because it's actually people putting their money down.

[J.D. Vance]

Sure.

[Theo Von]

Are there. What do you think of polls that are out there these days? Do you guys follow these polls? Is that real stuff to you? Like, I know that, like, they had the Clinton Trump poll years ago and they had Clinton who was neck and neck or something, and then it wasn't when it came out.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Do you guys follow any of that or is that really part of the daily routine?

[J.D. Vance]

Not really, man. I mean, I can, I can get you in the weeds a little bit, but I'll try to. I'll try to. I live and breathe this stuff, so I try not to make it too.

[Theo Von]

Into a lot of media.

[J.D. Vance]

So it's, here's, yeah, here's basically the way you shouldn't trust polls, whether they're good for us or bad for us. And here's the reason you shouldn't trust polls is about 10 years ago, every 10th person you called to do a poll would answer. Now it's about one in 30 people. Okay. And another important thing is that if you're a Democrat, especially if you're a higher education level Democrat, you're much more willing to answer pollster questions. Where if you're, excuse me, if you're like my family, if somebody called them a stranger and said, who are you going to vote for? They would say, f you and hang up the phone. Oh, yeah, right. So the reason the polls have gotten so bad is because Trump voters are less likely to answer pollster questions and Kamala Harris voters are much more likely to answer pollster questions. So it's very hard to get an accurate sample to give you any sense of what's going on.

[Theo Von]

But do you just believe that or are you just saying that?

[J.D. Vance]

I actually believe that. Yeah. No, I believe that. And I've seen it. In my own race, for example, I ran for Senate, there were all these public polls that say the race was tied or maybe we'd even lose by a few points. And the pollster that I had who just polls for my campaign, he's actually Trump's pollster too. He's a very smart guy. And he said, look, the reason these polls are wrong is because they're not reaching voters who don't like to answer polls. Those voters are going heavily for you. I said, okay, how much are we going to win by? And he said, you're going to win by six points, and we won by seven points. Right. So he was much more accurate than the public pollsters. Now you ask why is he more accurate? Because most of the public polls, they cost 10, $20,000. Like, if you see a poll published in a newspaper article, 10 to $20,000 to get an accurate sample. These guys need to really. It's 60, $70,000 because they've got to call thousands and thousands of people to get a representative sample of the American people. So honest, like sitting here. Honestly, I think that chart's about right. I think that we've probably got about a 60% chance of winning. I think the polls would have to be wrong, but they'd have to be wrong in a pro commila direction, where normally they're wrong in a pro Trump direction. And, you know, we've got 18 days. 17 days, man, and we're just going to, like, do everything that we can to win this race. But you shouldn't believe the polls, basically.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And I. And I say this right now because the polls are all saying we'd win. That's why. That's why it's 5,000, 743. Don't buy the polls. Because here's the thing, okay.

[Theo Von]

It could keep people from voting also.

[J.D. Vance]

It could keep people from voting. But let's say, for example, that something happened. I don't know what happened, but let's say something happened with fire. Yeah. Where the people who don't want to answer pollster questions are now Kamala voters. Right. So you can't trust this stuff. You got to assume that you just got to work your ass off. That's what we're trying to do. President Trump and I do, in multiple events a day at this point. And if you want, in my view, if you want to secure the border, have common sense economic policy, then Donald Trump is your man. And I gotta say, man, something about Kamala Harris, and I know a little bit about you, and I wrote about some of your political views.

[Theo Von]

We've invited her and Mr. Wallace to come on.

[J.D. Vance]

No, I appreciate that. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure you would, but I hope they will. But like Sean O'Brien, who's the head of the Teamsters, one of the things that President Trump has sort of been known for is bringing more working class people into the Republican coalition. Right. I think one of the reasons why he's been very successful politically, if you look at where Kamala is on the big pharma stuff, or you look at where she is on the foreign conflict stuff, she's very pro war. Or if you look at where she is on things like how do we put tariffs on goods that are imported from China so that you don't have the Chinese undercutting the wages of American workers. The illegal immigration thing, yeah, it's about fentanyl and drug trafficking. But when you bring in millions upon millions of illegal immigrants who are willing to work under the table, that undercuts the wages of American workers, so our own people get poorer. And I don't have anything against the illegal immigrants themselves. I have something against Kamala Harris, who lets these people come in. But I want our people to be able, you know, black, white, brown, whatever. I just want our people to be able to work for a solid wage. That doesn't work when you have people coming in like this.

[Theo Von]

Well, some of it is we have to have personal responsibility too, as people running companies to not hire.

[J.D. Vance]

I agree.

[Theo Von]

Those people as well. And so you have to enforce that side of it as well.

[J.D. Vance]

I agree. You gotta do both sides of it. I think we ought to make it harder to hire illegal labor. We also ought to make it harder for illegal labor to come into the country in the first place. I agree both sides of it have got to matter, but I think that's actually why we're doing so much better among working people, is because they recognize, like, open borders are not good for me. Right. It's not good for me. Like, this stuff with farm is not good for me. And so they have become more open to Donald Trump. And I think that's a very good thing because I think, look, man, between Bobby Kennedy, me, obviously the president at the top of the ticket, I think we're going to have such a cool administration that's going to try to tackle the big things and not just govern along these bullshit slogans anymore. So, look, I hope that ends up being true because I think we'll do a lot of good if we win.

[Theo Von]

If you, no matter what happens in this election, would. Do you think you would run again in the future?

[J.D. Vance]

I don't know, man. It's so hard to even imagine running for anything after this because I'm so obsessed with winning right now. And, you know, like, I certainly probably would do another term in the Senate, but that doesn't come up for four more years because Senate terms are six years. It's like, whatever, run nationally again. I don't know, man. That's a big. That's a big thing. It's a big thing to put your family through.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I can imagine.

[J.D. Vance]

I've only. I've seen it for two months, three months now that I've been the VP nominee to run for that for two years. My attitude is, let's get Donald Trump elected and let's fix as much as we can because then I think the country will be in a much better spot. I don't mean to sound like a doomer and I just really haven't thought about what. I haven't really thought about what I would do in 2028, no matter what. But man, if Kamala Harris is the president for the next four years, we have four more years of open borders, four more years of not putting tariffs on Chinese imports. Four more years of the crazy foreign policy that's pro war all over the world. I really do worry that the country's in a very, very bad spot. So I don't think too much about future politics. I just want to win this race.

[Theo Von]

How many times do politicians say stuff that's just on the trail and then when it comes time to actually get an offer office and do stuff, it seems like that person disappears.

[J.D. Vance]

Me, hopefully not at all. Some politicians definitely say one thing and then don't govern that way in the privacy of their actual office. Some of it's negotiation, some of it is okay, let's say you have a tax plan where you want 10 things to happen, but then to get the Democrats to vote for it, you have to take out two of those 10 things. Like, that's just the give and take of governance. But I don't think that's what you're talking about. I mean, what you do see sometimes is people who say something on the campaign trail, even though they affirmatively do not believe that thing at all. And that's just.

[Theo Von]

That's not you.

[J.D. Vance]

It's dishonesty. It's certainly not me. It's certainly not Donald Trump. They say what you will about Donald Trump, but he just says what he thinks. And I think that's actually one of the reasons why people like him.

[Theo Von]

A lot of people are going to vote for him. I think also because it's just the funny who. He's the funniest dude they've ever had in there.

[J.D. Vance]

He is incredibly funny.

[Theo Von]

The shit he says Is absolutely wild.

[J.D. Vance]

He's got. He's got a great sense of humor. Can I tell you one story?

[Theo Von]

Yeah. And then you have to go.

[J.D. Vance]

I know, I know. I have to go soon. I've got, you know, my person over here.

[Theo Von]

I understand. I want you to get home to your family.

[J.D. Vance]

No, I know. I'm gonna have dinner with my kids tonight, so it's a big deal. Skyline Chili in. Not in Cincinnati. We're doing Skyline Chili in Middletown.

[Theo Von]

Even if you have other chilling, you just say that they don't want to tell anything. That's one thing I don't care if you lie about.

[J.D. Vance]

No, man, Skyline is good. Have you ever had Skyline?

[Theo Von]

Skyline goes straight to the basement. I know that, brother. I'll tell you that. Dude, I have had it. I respect it. Okay. I've had it at a wedding. I've had it at a wedding in Covington, Kentucky. I've had Skyline Chili.

[J.D. Vance]

That's a good wedding, man. Those must have been good friends. Anyway. Yeah. So the first time. Not that he had ever met my wife, but the first time President Trump spent any real time with my wife.

[Theo Von]

Did he flirt with her or not?

[J.D. Vance]

He didn't flirt with her. He was very sweet to her, gave her a big hug, told her she was beautiful. He's a very engaging guy. Some of the media doesn't tell people about him, but he's a very engaging guy. Very easy to talk to, but it's so funny. My wife is super diplomatic. And so he asks her, he's like, usha, what do you think about your husband being involved in politics? And she's, oh, it's nice. I like supporting him. He really cares about public service. Love, loves the people of Ohio. Just gives a very diplomatic answer. And then he kind of chuckles and says, yeah, my wife hates it, too. And it just, like, broke the ice perfectly. And then she could actually have a conversation with him because she wasn't trying to, like, talk to the president then. She was just talking to a guy at that point. Yeah. And he's. He's just. He's got a very, very good way about him, and he breaks down some barriers.

[Theo Von]

Dinner the other night, those. That shit was good.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

What if Tony Hinchcliffe helped him write that or not?

[J.D. Vance]

I don't know. It's a good question. But he's. I'll tell you, a lot of the stuff he just comes up with himself. I mean, the line where he was talking about, you know, white dudes for Kamala.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And he was like. He was Like I forget exactly what he said, but something to the effect of, well, it's their wives and their wives boyfriends are all voting for Trump.

[Theo Von]

That show is pretty crazy, dude.

[J.D. Vance]

Like all good jokes. There's like an element of truth to it.

[Theo Von]

My best was any rubbed unlucky Chuck Schumer right there. I squeeze a couple bucks out of the fucking insurance companies right there. Do you think our voting poll. Do you think that our voting is fair, do you think?

[J.D. Vance]

I do. I do.

[Theo Von]

I mean look at system is fair.

[J.D. Vance]

I think we had some problems in 2020. I the biggest problem in 2020 is that big tech interfered in the election. Like I really think it's.

[Theo Von]

I can't believe that Facebook and Twitter, when it was owned then they admitted to like leaving certain things off and stuff and not. And not facing any charges.

[J.D. Vance]

They admitted to censoring American citizens weeks before an election. Right.

[Theo Von]

We'll have to talk about that another time. Yeah, get into that.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. If you'll have me back, I'll come back after we win and have a good conversation. But you're always welcome in Cincinnati, even despite your views on Skyline.

[Theo Von]

Hey, man, I respect that. We'll be cheering your mom on to get her 10 year chip. It's in January.

[J.D. Vance]

It's in January.

[Theo Von]

Awesome, man. Mr. Vance, thank you so much for spending time with us today.

[J.D. Vance]

Thanks, man. Good to see you.

[Theo Von]

Now I'm just floating on the breeze.

[J.D. Vance]

And I feel I'm falling like these leaves I must be cornerstone oh but when I reach that ground I'll share this piece of mind I found I can feel it in my bones.