E550 Craigslist Founder Craig Newmark

Summary

Podcast Summary: This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von – Episode E550 Featuring Craig Newmark

Title: This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von
Host: Theo Von
Guest: Craig Newmark (Founder of Craigslist)
Release Date: December 12, 2024

---

Introduction

In Episode E550 of This Past Weekend, host Theo Von engages in an enlightening and candid conversation with Craig Newmark, the founder of Craigslist. The discussion delves into Craig's journey as an entrepreneur, his philanthropic endeavors, the evolution of Craigslist, and his concerns about cybersecurity and national defense. Throughout the episode, Craig shares personal anecdotes, insights into his management style, and his vision for leveraging technology to support veterans and their families.

---

The Genesis of Craigslist

Craig Newmark's Early Days (12:00 - 15:50)

Craig Newmark recounts the humble beginnings of Craigslist, which started as a simple email list to help newcomers in San Francisco find events and information about local neighborhoods. Initially named "San Francisco Events," the list rapidly expanded, prompting Craig to adopt the brand name "Craigslist." Without any formal advertising, Craigslist grew organically through word of mouth.

Craig Newmark [12:00]: "People helped me settle in, told me about neighborhoods and restaurants and events that I might get interested in."

As the platform evolved, Craigslist began to include job postings, items for sale, and various community-based classifieds, emphasizing its mission to help people put food on the table and find meaningful connections.

---

Managing Growth and Building a Team

Transitioning to a Corporate Structure (15:18 - 21:37)

Craig discusses the challenges of scaling Craigslist from a personal project to a full-fledged company. Initially running operations from his home, Craig soon realized the necessity of professionalizing the platform to manage increasing responsibilities such as coding, customer service, and billing.

Craig Newmark [16:39]: "Running with volunteers didn't work."

Reluctantly, Craig made the difficult decision to hire employees and establish a corporate structure, a move that introduced him to the complexities of management—an area he admits he struggled with.

Craig Newmark [20:43]: "I need to hire other people to do coding, customer service, billing, and that meant making it into an actual corporate structure."

Recognizing his limitations in leadership, Craig stepped down from managerial roles to focus on customer service, allowing others to handle the operational aspects of Craigslist.

Craig Newmark [21:18]: "I stepped down to just do full-time customer service. I'm a great customer service rep."

---

Craigslist's Impact and Philosophy

Community Building and Ethical Considerations (22:07 - 29:01)

Craigslist's core philosophy revolves around simplicity, fairness, and minimal monetization. The platform has been instrumental in fostering community connections, facilitating job placements, and enabling users to give away or sell items essential for daily living.

Craig Newmark [15:34]: "One of the best things you could do for someone is to help them get a job sometimes, then help them, well, find a place to live."

Craig emphasizes the importance of maintaining a balance between monetization and providing free, high-quality services. While Craigslist introduced fees for job postings to sustain operations, the platform remains committed to serving the community without succumbing to aggressive commercialization.

Craig Newmark [19:03]: "Craigslist philosophy is to monetize only those ads for people who are paying more money for less effective ads."

He also touches upon the challenges of content moderation, highlighting Craigslist's efforts to maintain a trustworthy environment while respecting users' rights.

---

Personal Insights and Relationships

Craig's Personal Life and Social Dynamics (40:52 - 44:54)

The conversation shifts to Craig's personal experiences, including how he met his wife through Craigslist. Despite his self-professed social awkwardness, Craig found love online, demonstrating the platform's ability to forge meaningful relationships.

Craig Newmark [42:51]: "We've been together for over 20 years now."

Craig shares humorous anecdotes about his interactions at events and his time managing customer service, reflecting on his growth and the supportive nature of his community.

---

Philanthropy and Modern Challenges

Focus on Veterans and Cybersecurity (36:16 - 55:47)

Craig delves into his philanthropic efforts, particularly his commitment to supporting veterans and their families through initiatives like the Bob Woodrow Foundation and Blue Star Families. With a personal investment of $200 million dedicated to cybersecurity, Craig underscores the growing threats posed by cyber warfare and the importance of safeguarding critical infrastructure.

Craig Newmark [29:28]: "I'm now working harder than I've ever been. Because I guess I am on a mission. You know, vets and their families need our help."

He elaborates on the vulnerabilities in rural water and electrical systems, emphasizing the need for resilient and protected utilities to prevent foreign adversaries from compromising essential services.

Craig Newmark [32:20]: "They could turn off your car, stall it out in the middle of rush hour traffic. If they did that in a city like New York, if they could just do 100 cars, that snarls traffic indefinitely."

Craig's focus extends to building networks of volunteers and nonprofit organizations to bolster national cybersecurity defenses, drawing parallels to collective efforts seen during World War II.

---

Ethical Stance and Property Rights

Content Moderation and Platform Governance (58:31 - 71:03)

Craig touches upon the ethical responsibilities of platform owners, particularly in regulating content. When faced with demands to ban certain categories like gun sales, Craig upheld Craigslist's autonomy and property rights, asserting his right to define the platform's rules.

Craig Newmark [58:31]: "One of them is property rights. So if you have a site, it's your property. You get to set the rules."

He discusses the delicate balance between supporting free speech and preventing illicit activities, highlighting Craigslist's collaboration with law enforcement to address criminal misuse while respecting constitutional protections.

Craig Newmark [61:05]: "We have these checks and balances in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. And, you know, the founders of the country did a really good job of that."

Craig also expresses his disillusionment with contemporary political labels like "liberal" and "conservative," focusing instead on actionable causes that directly benefit society.

Craig Newmark [28:54]: "I now regard terms like liberal and conservative as kind of bullshit."

---

Personal Reflections and Future Goals

Balancing Philanthropy and Personal Life (73:05 - 88:52)

Craig reflects on the challenges of managing considerable wealth responsibly, choosing to live modestly despite his financial success. His wife, an art major, influences their lifestyle choices, emphasizing practicality over extravagance.

Craig Newmark [72:41]: "I bought some of the prints that he [Leonard Cohen] made."

Craig shares his regret over missing out on certain art acquisitions but remains committed to supporting causes that align with his values. He underscores the importance of independent journalism and the role of platforms like Wikipedia in shaping public knowledge.

Craig Newmark [77:04]: "Wikipedia is where facts go to live."

Looking ahead, Craig aims to raise awareness about cybersecurity threats and continues to support veterans through substantial financial commitments. He acknowledges the limitations of his management skills but remains dedicated to his philanthropic missions.

Craig Newmark [87:10]: "I want cybersecurity to be a household word that everyone takes seriously."

---

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Theo Von expressing admiration for Craig's dedication and vision. Craig remains steadfast in his mission to support veterans, enhance national cybersecurity, and foster community through his philanthropic efforts. Despite stepping back from active management of Craigslist, Craig's legacy continues to impact millions, embodying his belief in fairness, community support, and responsible stewardship of resources.

Craig Newmark [89:00]: "It's been a happy accident. I'm like any success I've had has been by accidentally being in the right time at the right place."

Theo and Craig share a light-hearted moment about Craig's humorous side, ending the episode on a warm and reflective note.

---

Notable Quotes

1. Craig Newmark [12:00]: "People helped me settle in, told me about neighborhoods and restaurants and events that I might get interested in."
2. Craig Newmark [16:39]: "Running with volunteers didn't work."
3. Craig Newmark [19:03]: "Craigslist philosophy is to monetize only those ads for people who are paying more money for less effective ads."
4. Craig Newmark [28:54]: "I now regard terms like liberal and conservative as kind of bullshit."
5. Craig Newmark [29:28]: "I'm now working harder than I've ever been. Because I guess I am on a mission. You know, vets and their families need our help."
6. Craig Newmark [61:05]: "We have these checks and balances in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. And, you know, the founders of the country did a really good job of that."
7. Craig Newmark [77:04]: "Wikipedia is where facts go to live."
8. Craig Newmark [87:10]: "I want cybersecurity to be a household word that everyone takes seriously."

---

Final Thoughts

Craig Newmark's conversation with Theo Von provides a deep dive into the mind of a visionary entrepreneur who leveraged the internet to create a platform that transcends mere classifieds. His commitment to philanthropy, especially in supporting veterans and enhancing cybersecurity, underscores a life dedicated to service and community. The episode offers valuable lessons on balancing personal passions with societal contributions, all while navigating the complexities of growth and ethical responsibility.

Transcript

[Craig Newmark]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. There's nothing sweeter than baking cookies during the holidays. With Prime, I get all my ingredients delivered right to my door, fast and free. No last minute store trips needed. And of course I blast my favorite holiday playlist on Amazon Music. It's the ultimate soundtrack for creating unforgettable memories. From streaming to shopping. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime to get more out of whatever you're into.

[Theo Von]

I have some new tour dates to let you know about. I'll be in East Lansing. I'll be in Toledo, Ohio Rama, Ontario in the Canada, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Eugene, Oregon Kennewick, Washington Seattle, Washington Victoria, BC in the Canada College Station, Texas Belton, Texas San Antonio Durant, Amarillo, Oxford, Mississippi how did he Fayetteville, Arkansas Tuscaloosa, Alabama Rolled and Tallahassee, Florida Rosemont, Illinois Winnipeg and Calgary in the Canada. Get all your [e-mail] t o u R thank you so much for your support and thank you to the fella in Montana that gave me this jacket. Got some Indian artifacts on the back and just want to say thank you. I really like this jacket. We've also got some new merch, some new gang gang tees in pepper and ivory, and we've got a new gang gang hat that giggity. Check those out and [e-mail] Happy Holidays to everyone. Today's guest is an entrepreneur and a philanthropist. He worked at IBM, he worked at bank of America. But most people know him as the founder of Craigslist, a site that has given so many unique experiences to the world. We're so happy to get to spend time today with Craigslist own Craig Newmark.

[Craig Newmark]

Shine on me and I will find.

[Theo Von]

A song I will sing and just want to let you know, like we're just excited you're here and we don't have any. This isn't like a, like a got you podcast. We're not trying to do anything uncomfortable. You know, obviously you've had a very unique life and we just wanna, I think we're curious about it, you know.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, two episodes ago you had Ryan Martin.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And I learned one big thing on, on thinking about what he had said. So I'm prepared to even mention that because he made me realize something which I won't be able to do anything about. But at least understanding helps.

[Theo Von]

Oh, about anger.

[Craig Newmark]

Yes.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Yeah, he's. Yeah. I thought Ryan Martin was really interesting. He's a professor over in Green Bay. Because I think anger is something that's kind of enveloping people a lot these days. You know, I find it a lot in myself. And you'll almost get. I mean, obviously it's kind of embarrassing. You know, it's a weird feeling that's like, you know, it can lead to a lot of negativity, can lead to, you know, dangerous activities, but it also, you. I feel you get embarrassed of it, you know, and it kind of just takes you over.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, in my case, it's tied in with some traumatic stress. And my deal is, I learned the hard way that no good deed goes unpunished. I learned that a person who's basically honest will never be able to successfully deal with a person who lies for a living. That's very frustrating because I have to keep it. In some days, somebody may be able to deal with it, maybe with some help from me. Someday some situations may turn into some real drama, possibly criminal referrals. But I'm the kind of guy who. People, for years have been telling me that some areas I just don't have the skills, and I contribute by not talking.

[Theo Von]

So do you feel like you're kind of a quiet guy sometimes?

[Craig Newmark]

Generally quiet. Generally restrained. Except for reasons of comedy. I know that I'm not as funny as I think I am. And yet, like I tell my philanthropic grantees that I would like for them to tolerate my sense of humor but not encourage me.

[Theo Von]

Okay, nice.

[Craig Newmark]

And so far, that's worked out well. Particularly last night, the above Woodruff thing, I did briefly hang out.

[Theo Von]

What was it last night? Just so we can. So our listeners know.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. Last night there was a fundraiser for the Bob Woodrow Foundation. They run a network called Got yout Six.

[Theo Von]

Got yout Six.

[Craig Newmark]

Got youtz Six. Like in the military scene?

[Theo Von]

Got your bet.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. And about 350 organizations who are actually good at helping, and many philanthropic organizations are challenged when it comes to actually helping. But these guys are good. They need a lot of money to help out. Help out vets and their families. And this was both a comedy concert and a music concert. The guys, I think it was Mark Normand.

[Theo Von]

Oh, Mark Norman was there.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. He's great. We're both from New Orleans.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, starting from there, there's Jim Gaffigan.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Craig Newmark]

Jerry Seinfeld. And Jon Stewart on the comedy side, which was great for me. Yeah. And then on the music side, Nora Jones. And then there's this guy, Springsteen. I had spoken to him before, and I told him that as a nerd, I understood that he was very popular, but that I don't know his music. And he reacted quite satisfactorily. His jaw dropped. His wife. This was a few years ago, but his wife got the joke immediately. The better part of the joke was I was being literal. I really am a nerd. I'm the kind of guy in the late 60s, in high school, I wore a plastic pocket protector, thick black glasses taped together. No social skills.

[Theo Von]

So you really. You did you kind of embody that nerd? Like, you were like, you saw a nerd and you were like, I'm going to be over here. I'll be there.

[Craig Newmark]

I had to originally.

[Theo Von]

No, this. You right here.

[Craig Newmark]

You found the store of old photos.

[Theo Von]

Oh, wow. Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

That's me in high school. Those are the thick black glasses.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

Not taped together at the time. Now, see, I can simulate or fake normal human social behavior now, but it is a simulation. I have to work hard on it all the time, and after a while, I will start getting cranky. But the nerd cliche originated right around when I was around, so I do take credit for it.

[Theo Von]

Well, we're glad to have one of the most nerdorious humans, Craig Newmark. Thanks for hanging out, man. I appreciate it. You know, we're in. We're in the Chelsea Hotel, number two. Do you know that I know you're a Leonard Cohen fan.

[Craig Newmark]

Yes.

[Theo Von]

And this is. He had songs based that were based out of here. I think he spent time with Janis Joplin here.

[Craig Newmark]

He did, yeah, allegedly. And, well, I'm near where I live in the Village. Not far away. Walking distance. I have a friend, my comedy consultant, and he lived here during that heyday. He knew both of them and others, he was intimidated by Leonard Cohn. See, this friend was in the process of transitioning from music to comedy, which turned out to be easier for him to do. He was really big in the 70s and 80s. He may not have invested well because I saw him yesterday, but he's much funnier than I am. For real?

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

And that's why I know that I'm not as funny as I think I am.

[Theo Von]

Very fair. You look. You got. You're doing okay with me so far, you know.

[Craig Newmark]

Thank you. If I knew you better, I'd. I believe comedians indulging indulge in a practice called breaking balls.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

I will introduce my friends sometimes as a guy who used to be funny. I will tell them, oh, yeah. Comedy requires actually funny material.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah, that's a good. That's a good starting. That's a good starting point.

[Craig Newmark]

But He's. He's given me a couple jokes to use, reminding me that at his age and my age, when you get down to tie your shoes, you look around and you think, what else can I do while I'm down here? And unfortunately, that's turned true. When I do get down, I have some worries about being able to get back up again.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, once you get onto the ground floor again, sometimes you kind of want to stay down there. We used to listen to Leonard Cohen when I was a kid. My mom would put it on when we would. When we would have to clean the house on Saturdays, and my mom would put it on that. I remember that song. When the Walls Came Down.

[Craig Newmark]

Okay, that's older school, even for Leonard.

[Theo Von]

All the way to hell. And we'd be like, all right, I'll clean.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah, I vaguely remembered him. Well, in like, 88 or so, I'm youm Man premiered. And I love that. And first we'll take Manhattan, and then I found various positions.

[Theo Von]

What is that? First we'll take Manhattan, and with.

[Craig Newmark]

Then we'll take Berlin.

[Theo Von]

And then we'll take Berlin. Yeah. Dude, that's crazy that those lyrics have mildly been in my head over the years, and I didn't even know that that's where they were from. They were from Leonard Cohen.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. He influenced a lot of musicians after. He's my favorite in an obsessive way. And now. And then, when I'm in the right mood, I will listen to him. He's not cheerful, by the way most people think about him.

[Theo Von]

He's a little dark.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. But he's uplifting, if you're into it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. He reminds me of a kind of a darker Anthony Bourdain of music, in a way.

[Craig Newmark]

I haven't thought about that, but I'm trying not to think too much about food.

[Theo Von]

Okay. Okay. Well.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, my problem simply is that since I've been on the run all morning, I did pass a place which had what looked like a good slice of pumpkin pie.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah, brother.

[Craig Newmark]

I, however, may have been disappointed. So I'll think of something later this afternoon.

[Theo Von]

Something a little less risque, huh?

[Craig Newmark]

Well, my problem is that food is just too delicious, and it's hard to know when to stop.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, well, it's funny because they don't put a stop sign at the bottom of a dessert or something.

[Craig Newmark]

That may or may not be helpful. I will face the challenge in roughly two hours.

[Theo Von]

Okay. There we go. Well, we have you for a limited time today. I do want to talk. You are the Craig From Craigslist?

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

That is true, yes. Okay. And how did Craigslist start, Like, just. I know that's a basic question, but you don't even think about it as a regular human. We don't even know that you're a real. We just. You don't even know.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. And I occasionally tell people that Craig is fake, like Betty Crocker. My deal is that I moved to San FRANCISCO Mid. Well, mid-93.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

And I saw there were a lot of people helping each other out on the Net, sometimes doing so, giving away expensive consulting time. And I took advantage of that. People helped me settle in, told me about neighborhoods and restaurants and events that I might get interested in.

[Theo Von]

So you were communicating on the Internet, just with people looking for information about living in a new area?

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. A lot of this was from the. Well, an early virtual community, some from Usenet newsgroups, which were the first big deal discussion boards. And there was a spirit that we were all going to use the Net to help each other out.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

So I thought I should give back. Started a simple CC list telling people about what I thought were cool events, usually arts and technology, like Joe's Digital Diner or the Anon Salon, which was a party fundraiser for a local theater. Highly entangled with the very earliest Burning Man. And I never got involved with that because I realized that I'm not a burner at heart. But did this mailing list, it started growing via word of mouth. And I started asking for more stuff than just events, like if people wanted to sell something, if people had a job or an apartment.

[Theo Von]

So that's how it started. You started just emailing people just with information about things to do in the area. It started to grow. And it was just an actual list of people you were sending a message to?

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah, it was literally an email cc list. And that broke at 240 addresses. I had to use a listserv. I had to give the thing a name.

[Theo Von]

I was.

[Craig Newmark]

I'm very literal as a nerd. I wanted to call it San Francisco Events since it was still mostly that. Yeah, I. Yeah, I don't have much of an imagination. Well, but then I was going to call it SF Events. People around me told me they had given it a name, Craigslist. They told me I had accidentally created a brand. Then they explained to me what a brand is because I was that naive. They were right. Called it Craigslist. Just kept growing increasingly. For the first three years, just me.

[Theo Von]

And how often was the. Was the list going out?

[Craig Newmark]

Whenever somebody had something I would send it out.

[Theo Von]

Okay, so is that once a week or twice a month?

[Craig Newmark]

If I was lucky. It could be, let's say, something worthwhile a few times a day.

[Theo Von]

Oh, nice. Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

The deal is not that big, but let's say high value. And I was being careful. I didn't want to spam anyone.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Craig Newmark]

And it just kept growing via word of mouth. And we've never really done any advertising.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I've never seen.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah, you should be careful. I'll wrap around to it, but I'm not involved with the thing nowadays. I'm retired. Busier than I've been, but retired. But yeah. The deal is it's just me for a few years.

[Theo Von]

And you were the only staff member.

[Craig Newmark]

Yes.

[Theo Von]

And what were some of those early high value items? Like, what was something that would come across. Are we talking like kind of like a. Like a painting? Are we talking like a little catamaran? What are we talking?

[Craig Newmark]

Mostly I was thinking about jobs.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

Because one of the best things you could do for someone is to help them get a job sometimes, then help them, well, find a place to live. What Craigslist is about in a lot of ways is helping put food on, helping people put food on the table. Right.

[Theo Von]

You have. That's a great point. If you can help somebody get a job, it's such a. Yeah, that's residual.

[Craig Newmark]

And it was completely free the first three years. But the people who were putting jobs on there wanted me to charge them to post for jobs because they felt.

[Theo Von]

Some, like, indebted in some way.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, they felt that they were paying a lot more money for job ads in other places with fewer results, less quality results. So they said, charge us a little bit, that'll pay the bills. And they were right. Experimented a little bit with volunteers and charging for jobs in 98. But I got the idea from people in 97. Running with volunteers didn't work.

[Theo Von]

What do you mean running with volunteers? You mean to help you?

[Craig Newmark]

Yes.

[Theo Von]

Okay. And at that point you're just doing it out of your home?

[Craig Newmark]

Exactly. Right.

[Theo Von]

First three years off of your home computer. Yeah. And I was big. How big did the email list get? Sorry, Craig.

[Craig Newmark]

You know, I don't really know how big it got through that time because in 96 I remembered that I'm a programmer. I can write software which turns emails into web pages. And so I started doing that, which gave me web publishing for free.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

And when something started taking too much of my time, I wrote some more code which reduced what might take an hour a day.

[Theo Von]

To.

[Craig Newmark]

To a few minutes a day.

[Theo Von]

Got it.

[Craig Newmark]

And that happened a number of times. But 98 tried running it with volunteers. The people who cared for the thing, who were doing job postings in particular, said, volunteer thing isn't working. Sometimes things would take a while to get posted. So I had to make the thing into a real company.

[Theo Von]

Right. So at that point, you're like, if I wanted to keep this going, it's got to. There needs to be some checks and balances. And obviously salaries help. Help create that.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. I need to hire other people to do coding, customer service, billing, and that meant making it into an actual corporate structure.

[Theo Von]

Was that scary to think about that?

[Craig Newmark]

Very scary. But the hard part was at that point, you know, at events, parties, I would talk to bankers and venture capitalists who wanted me to do the usual Silicon Valley thing, monetize everything, and they would throw billions at me. And I was thinking, I don't need billions. I don't understand why people would do that. Speaking. And that has to do with. In Sunday school, Mr. And Mrs. Levin, they taught me that you should know when enough is enough. They taught me to treat people like you want to be treated. So nothing altruistic. This is just a return to Sunday school values. Literally. And so we. Craigslist philosophy is to monetize only those ads for people who are paying more money for less effective ads. So not an altruistic decision.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Craig Newmark]

Just basics.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. But also a little bit of barrier to entry, which not in a negative way, because you still. Everybody needs to hire someone or has the opportunity, and maybe they can't afford the ad, but it provides a little more structure to even just some basic. Yeah, it does provide some structure. Right.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, that's useful in the sense that, well, everyone is struggling, trying to get through the day.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Craig Newmark]

And some people are selling, doing things for profit, like brokering apartments in New York City and with. Sometimes with questionable ethics. And I found one year that new apartment brokers might make like 20k in a year, which even 15 years ago, you had to work two or three other jobs.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Craig Newmark]

So I said, how do you balance the idea that you want to give everyone a break? And I was able to suggest stuff to the people running the company at that point, because also in. Again, I made Craigslist into an actual company in 99.

[Theo Von]

Okay. So that's when it becomes an actual company in 1999. And at that point, you guys have an office.

[Craig Newmark]

You guys have returned it from running it in a room in my house into a room in a Commercial strip way out in the neighborhoods of San Francisco.

[Theo Von]

Wow, that's cool.

[Craig Newmark]

And the other hard decision I had to make that year 99, was that I started to realize, with help, that as a manager, I suck.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. It's hard to be a manager, isn't it?

[Craig Newmark]

Very hard.

[Theo Von]

Because you don't realize when you're gonna go, when you're gonna. Once you start to have employees and stuff, you're like, suddenly, I'm a boss. And if you never wanted to be a boss, it's a very precarious situation to be in. I've been there, man. What. What were some of the things that you noticed you were not good at?

[Craig Newmark]

Well, mostly hiring and firing.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

As a nerd, I am not good at reading people, and I needed to promote someone who would be good at that. And I had already stopped coding because I hired a bunch of people who. Who are better than me.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

I stepped down to just do full time customer service. I'm a great customer service rep. Okay. Not a manager of customer service, but I was a customer service rep and did that for maybe around 15 years.

[Theo Von]

Okay, so you ended up just being a customer service rep at your own company?

[Craig Newmark]

Yes.

[Theo Von]

Wow. So if somebody had a customer service issue, they would contact you on the phone or email?

[Craig Newmark]

Well, with some luck, they would contact someone else on phone first.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

I took that luxury for myself of not having to answer the phone.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

But they would generally email me. I was just craigraigslist.org easy to guess. So I spent a lot of time doing that kind of thing and got a lot of stuff done.

[Theo Von]

And you found yourself effective there?

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah, well, I saw. What I mostly saw was a lot of good. That is, people on the net are overwhelmingly good. The bad guys, bad actors get a lot more press because sometimes mainstream media generates clicks by emphasizing the bad. Yeah, this is kind of a normal thing, especially nowadays.

[Theo Von]

What were some of the. What were some of the things you saw in there early that that helped you to believe in the good and continue to make it go consistently?

[Craig Newmark]

I saw people helping each other out consistently. I saw people give away stuff that they could have sold for some cash. Like sometimes you don't need the cash. And then you would just give away something of actual value, like old computer equipment. That was pretty good.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. A lot of baby cribs on there. A lot of stuff like that.

[Craig Newmark]

In fact, that's in particular. That's particularly true. Baby cribs, baby carriages and moving boxes, because.

[Theo Von]

Which could also be a baby carriage, depending on you know, or a cat toy. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

But the idea is that when you move, you have a lot of boxes which are still really good. And the chances are nearly 100% someone not far away needs those boxes. Good boxes.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. I used to live with a guy. I lived with this guy named Kenny for a bit, and he was a pretty big stoner. Right. And I didn't know him. Met him on Craigslist. Right. I get over there and I end up living over there. And he would stack. He had a couple cats and stuff. And at night he was kind of like a. I guess, kind of an avant garde, like, circus see, kind of animal trainer guy. But he would stack all the boxes, these empty boxes in the room, and he would make the cats play on them, and he'd make me come out of my room to watch the show, you know, so it was crazy, but it was like. I don't know. It's something I still kind of remember about him. I kind of. I guess it was pretty. I thought it was interesting. But, yeah, people use boxes. Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. Well, the deal is that people everywhere in the country are okay. I. When you're doing customer service at that deeper level, you see a lot of stuff, and most of it is great. I did see some stuff. I wish I didn't. And that's the problem with content moderation. It's a very tough job, especially if it's full time and you're not getting paid much. And so these people are only seeing questionable stuff, and that can do some damage.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Were you so at that point? Yeah, I guess because Craigslist started to be this place, it kind of became everything really fast is what it felt like, just as a user. Right. It became like a first place where you could get a used air. You know, you could get a blender, an air balloon, or a roommate. But then it started to escalate too, where there was like, you know, people would buy drugs on there, you know, or people. You'd see people. Like, I would do it, you know, and you would see people. But they also had code names for the drugs.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

So it made it to be this kind of like, it. It had a fun spot to it. You know, you'd be on there. I mean, they had like. I remember beef jerky was a code name. Those mini bennies, they had that brain dander, that Baby Hay was one of them. I'm trying to think of any other. That Pedrito Blanca was a span. But you know what? It was that Dragon de Negro they had. I'm trying to. That whispering mother. That was a kind of a native one that they were. It was peyote. Whispering mother.

[Craig Newmark]

I know that the mainstream press greatly exaggerated a lot of this. They didn't point out that what you see on the street always makes it online and online everywhere.

[Theo Von]

You guys weren't producing it.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, what the mainstream press doesn't point out that if you're a conscientious site, you keep around the digital forensics. And because people leave a lot of trace evidence around CSI style.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Craig Newmark]

And that years and years ago, I talked with a lot of cops who were real pleased with the way that we kept around the forensics. And because of high school history, I learned the balance between fighting crime and the rights of the accused. What's in the Bill of Rights? What's in the Constitution?

[Theo Von]

Wow. So you had to. So you took that upon yourself. It must have been kind of a tough navigation. Was it tough to navigate that personally? Because you have this. This atmosphere that people can kind of. It's a. It's just a pathway. Right.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, what I did is I mentioned this to the boss and to the lawyers and said that we got to do this balance. We had the advantage of having the Electronic Frontier foundation available because they're the big pioneers of all this stuff online.

[Theo Von]

What does that mean, the Electronic Frontier Foundation?

[Craig Newmark]

Well, what they did is they're a great voice in standing up for the rights of regular people. And that balance, you gotta do the right thing for victims and cops. You gotta do so in an American way. Meaning looking at the Bill of Rights. And if a cop wants to see the forensics, there needs to be something like a subpoena or search warrant. That's the way things are done in our country.

[Theo Von]

Those are the laws.

[Craig Newmark]

That's a judicial overview. And that's the ultimate purpose of that, was to prevent the kind of abuse we saw under King George. Literally speaking, I did have that really good high school history teacher. He taught the kind of civics that you don't have nowadays. But I took this in 1970. I'm really old.

[Theo Von]

You look great.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, thank you. But this teacher was great because he even took us once to a taping of a firing line, which was William F. Buckley, Jr. He invented American conservatism, at least the modern form of it. And that really influenced me because at that point, I'm off on a tangent, but at that point, I was looking at that. I was starting to take a bit of a look at libertarianism, that kind of stuff. Again, this is more than 50 years ago.

[Theo Von]

So it's funny because you kind of ended up in this space later on where you're like trying to look at the ethics of like, communication. Who has rights? What the. How do you protect people but also give people the freedoms that they are deserve under their own life? Is that what you're kind of saying?

[Craig Newmark]

That's pretty much it these days, frankly. I've given up on politics.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

For some years. I now regard terms like liberal and conservative as kind of bullshit.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And I gotta. Well, I gotta focus on helping people who protect the country. Like, there's vets in their families, there's active service members in their families. And right now we're beginning to see battles on our soil, on our own systems, as a precursor to cyberspace warfare.

[Theo Von]

When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, like Alo or All Birds or Skims, sure, you think about a great product, a cool brand and brilliant marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business making selling simple for millions of businesses. That business is Shopify. Mm, Shopify. Nobody does it better than them. Home of the number one checkout on the planet. And the not so secret secret with shop pay that boost conversions up to 50%. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout that all Birds uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial [e-mail] Theo all lowercase. That's shopify.com Theo. Just go to shopify.com the O to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com Theo you know, since the last holiday season, things have changed. Certainly the world has gotten busier and different. Your life has changed. Maybe something you did last year you don't do anymore and something you didn't do now you do. Things evolve. Certainly we have that with our online store. Different items switching to a new storefront, all those sorts of things come into play. Ship Station helps us achieve our shipping goals. That's right. Whether you're looking for better efficiency during the hectic holiday season or your businesses outgrown your old shipping Solutions, you need ShipStation to help you scale your business. I love the automation. I love the simplicity. I love being able to not only learn it for myself, but instruct a coworker easily. Scale your e commerce business with the shipping software that delivers. Switch to Ship Station today. Go to shipstation.com use code THEO to sign up for your free 60 day trial. That's shipstation.com code T H E O.

[Craig Newmark]

Right now, people, well, like you are as an Influencer, You're a target.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. We get stopped for things and we have to take certain things down. Things that we think are just fair speech, you know, we have to put it all through a filter, you know.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, I'm more worried about our foreign adversaries and I'm most worried about our foreign adversaries starting to compromise our utilities, water, power, and even our cars, because that's a thing that's happening in the here and now.

[Theo Von]

Really.

[Craig Newmark]

You could do a search online for something called Volt Typhoon.

[Theo Von]

How do you spell it?

[Craig Newmark]

Volt, like electrical vault. Vault Typhoon, like a big storm. And the FBI have been warning everyone that right now.

[Theo Von]

Yep. What is it? Voltaic, a cybersecurity expert explains that Chinese hackers targeting US Critical infrastructure. What is this? Can you tell me a little bit about it? Do you mind? Craig?

[Craig Newmark]

Right now what they're doing is they're infiltrating home systems to be used to attack other systems. What's worse is they're attacking the programmable controllers which control the flow of water into our taps. They're controlling the flow of electricity into our homes. Wow. And a lot of those systems, for much of the country, are not protected. The deal is that most of the country there are rural water systems, rural electrical systems. They don't have the resources to. To protect them. So a Chinese hacker, a Chinese military hacker could get in there and sway.

[Theo Von]

Our elections and stuff. Well, sway our waterways. Sway. If we have access to water.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, what they can do is turn off the water supply. And so if. Let's suppose you wanted to invade a small island country which was our ally, and if the other country, our adversary, want to discourage us from fighting on behalf of our ally, they could just start shutting off water and power. And, you know, if they did that where you're living, that would kind of ruin your day.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And for that matter, they could. They could compromise cars, which are Internet devices. Oh, that's true.

[Theo Von]

Especially as cars become more electric and more like digital. Really?

[Craig Newmark]

Yes. They could shut off your car, stall it out in the middle of rush hour traffic. If they did that in a city like New York, if they could just do 100 cars, that snarls traffic indefinitely.

[Theo Von]

Wow. Yeah, you do that. And then they shut the power down. And now things are getting really weird.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. And all they would have to do is show they could do it. And that would. That's where the military is headed these days. It is not replacing shooting wars, but it's more powerful. Like In World War II, the war came to our shores a little bit in whatever's happening next, it's going to be a much bigger thing. I'm planning to issue a national call to action wherein we tell everyone that we need to protect our homes. Utility companies need to protect themselves. We're trying to build the networks of networks where everyone can protect each other. I'm. I'm not the guy to really be Paul Revere. Right. Because that would require, like, social skills. And remember, I'm a nerd.

[Theo Von]

But you could be his horse. Maybe.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, I need to be something. But the deal is, as I issue this call to action, as I point out that many utilities are not protected, I'm going to piss off a lot of people.

[Theo Von]

You think so? Why would they be upset? I don't understand that part.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, sometimes people kill the messenger, and I got. So I'll do it carefully. We're ramping up slowly. We have this Pause Take Nine campaign. So when you get, like, a suspicious email, that could be phishing. And our adversaries are really smart. They're as smart as our guys.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And we need to know how to fight back. I need to consider helping out a new group being funded at Vanderbilt.

[Theo Von]

At Vanderbilt?

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Oh, nice. That's where I live in Tennessee.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, they've just started within the past couple weeks. Started a new facility which is going to be led by General Paul Nakasone, who led, I think it was Cyber Command. And they have this philosophy of defense forward where they're not waiting for the adversary to come and get us. We're taking more active measures.

[Theo Von]

And that's a big concern for you. So that's something you donate to, Right.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, that's a big area, like one big area in veterans and military families. And I've now committed to 200 million.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Craig Newmark]

And I've already spent more than half of it for cybersecurity. I've also committed a couple hundred million. This is not altruistic. This is just. Well, I was raised in the 50s to be a patriot. This is just me following through with basics. And I got the cash. I'm not much for luxuries. I do get all the streaming services I want, and I do have a larger TV than I should.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I won't say anything.

[Craig Newmark]

And beyond that. Well, again, back to Sunday school. You want to know when enough is enough, right?

[Theo Von]

You have to give back. Yeah, we talk about that on here. Sometimes I wonder if there should almost be a law. I mean, you couldn't make it a law, but that at a Certain point people. Somebody doesn't need any more money, you know, like. Because then it becomes. You see, some people, they just have. So it's like, what are you doing? Like, you know, it becomes almost this obsessive thing where. I don't know, it just. It seems scary to think that some people have so much money.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, I don't judge any of that. Everyone decides what's right for themselves, and that's none of my business.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

I figure I should put my money where my mouth is and then try to get some good stuff done. Make the occasional mistake. And some of my decisions weren't great, but they weren't really mistakes.

[Theo Von]

You mean like in what, investing and stuff like that, you mean. Or just.

[Craig Newmark]

No, I don't invest really.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

I do, I guess. Yeah. What? In the libertarian movement and the related financial stuff, in the 70s, early 70s, there was this idea of capital preservation because inflation was really bad then, so people were finding assets where they could preserve their capital. Of course, I was in college. I didn't have much, but I invest in the literal sense, very little. I just want to keep what I have for nonprofits and some for myself, and I want to keep that safe. Yeah, but that's the old libertarian background. These days, my philosophy is much more mixed because I'm told in Sunday school and elsewhere that you do want to. Well, now and then you go on to be your brother's or sister's keeper now and then you want to help people out who need a hand. How you do that effectively, no one knows the real answers for. But I can do a couple things. Not altruistic. It's just basics. And I learned all that over 60 years ago. I mean, I realized recently how formative that was. That's when I started reading science fiction.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. It's funny how those young years, they're little things you'll keep. I still remember certain things that I told someone I would do 25 years ago. And every day, every couple of days, someone was like, hey, don't forget, you still have to do that little thing. It's funny how, like, those formative years and things that we hear when we're young can have such an. In. Such an effect on us even as we grow older. I want to talk a little bit more about the actual site. So the company starts growing, right? And in addition to people helping each other get jobs, people were helping each other. People were starting relationships on there. I went on dates off of Craigslist before, you know, good. Did you yourself ever go?

[Craig Newmark]

Did you No, I. I always felt like a conflict of interest.

[Theo Von]

And that's true if you're like, hey, I'm Craig.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. I got. I got lucky in a. I got lucky in a local cafe.

[Theo Von]

Oh, you met your wife. Your wife. Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

And we've been together for over 20 years now.

[Theo Von]

Wow. And if. So, if you have custom social awkwardness, what was that like for you?

[Craig Newmark]

I decided I would take a big chance. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

I've been there, dude.

[Craig Newmark]

And told her that she's beautiful. The guy next to me, she tells me he rolled his eyes.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And because he rolled his eyes, that's why she started talking to me.

[Theo Von]

Oh, wow. So there was a little bit of some empathy there. Human empathy.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, it could have been a pity discussion.

[Theo Von]

That's another way of saying empathy.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. Obviously, I charmed her.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. That's a spirit.

[Craig Newmark]

So last night, we were at this fundraiser because I think she wanted to meet Jerry Seinfeld in particular, and I don't blame her. I had nothing to say. I was tongue tied. But that's how I normally act when I talk to celebrities. Particularly if you're backstage and there's a show going on.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And having done a little bit of that, you got to get your head into the moment, and you don't want a distraction.

[Theo Von]

Right. Yeah, that's a good point. You just want to kind of be a fly on the wall some sense.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Wow. So. So you started off, said hello in a cafe, and then how long was. That? Was your relationship. How long did that kind of dating life go for you guys?

[Craig Newmark]

Well, after about nine years, I think. I brought her over to. I showed her Facebook on a screen. I don't really use it anymore, but I said, is it okay if I change my relationship status to engaged?

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Craig Newmark]

And it took her a moment, but she said, oh, that's good. Because I calculated at that point that parental pressure had grown significantly from yours and hers. Hers. And that worked out pretty well.

[Theo Von]

That's a pretty suave online move. That's almost the most online way you could ask someone to marry you. I feel like.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, I hate to say it, but if you consider that suave, you may also be a bit of a nerd. I have.

[Theo Von]

I am that. When I think when it comes to. Yeah, yeah. There's like. Yeah. Talking with women, it definitely. It's not my. You know, I wouldn't. Yeah, Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

I.

[Theo Von]

You're not.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah, Yeah. I. Okay, that's the nerd cliche again. I. I'm.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

I'm still socially awkward sometimes. I can disguise that.

[Theo Von]

Yes.

[Craig Newmark]

But that's still me. And it's not going to change now that I'm in my sunset years.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes it doesn't go away. You kind of start to learn it. I think I've just had the. I. I have the tough thing of asking a girl out. Like, sometimes I'm okay with talk. I'll get good with talking with a woman. But it's just that next part, and we'll just be standing there, and we'll be like, well, somebody should ask somebody out or walk away from somebody. And then you're just still just standing there.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. Well, that's the purpose of misconnections.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

Which anecdotally, I know works once in a while because I've encountered over the years a bunch of couples which had gotten married.

[Theo Von]

No. Off of misconnections.

[Craig Newmark]

Yes. And I like that a great deal. It is romantic in a understated way.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. Well, how did that start? How did that misconnection start?

[Craig Newmark]

Well, Jim decided he wanted to put it up. He was the boss then, so he did.

[Theo Von]

Oh, Jim was the guy running the company at that point.

[Craig Newmark]

When I realized that, again, I'm a terrible manager, I'd already hired Jim. Who's a good manager?

[Theo Von]

Jim. What's his name?

[Craig Newmark]

Jim Buckmaster.

[Theo Von]

Jim Buckmaster. Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

You'll see pictures of us together, and if it looks like we're at eye level, it's because I'm standing on a box.

[Theo Von]

Okay. He's a smaller guy.

[Craig Newmark]

He's a big. He's a foot taller than me.

[Theo Von]

He's a taller guy. Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

So it makes for good. There you go.

[Theo Von]

Oh, there you are. You actually do have your box.

[Craig Newmark]

That's the old office space. And I was the one who suggested the gag there.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And. And kudos to your guys for being really good at pulling stuff up.

[Theo Von]

Craigslist.org yeah, man. When you guys were the first1todo.org, people were like, what is it? People thought I meant Oregon. People didn't even know what, you know, where is.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, it was an early use of it, and our approach was to be this minimal monetization thing. And there's no category for that online. So that caught the spirit and worked.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. And. And so missed connections. Do you remember, like, the first misconnection that was ever put up or the first personal that was ever put up? I'm sure people ask you that a lot.

[Craig Newmark]

Don't remember much of that at all. I. Everything is a blur. And unfortunately, I Wasn't smart enough to keep a lot of records. And so a lot is lost, like from the Internet Archive in the Wayback Machine. I could see the first site that I put up was mid or late 96, and that was pretty good. And I evolved that kind of minimal style. Like, right now, our site hasn't changed much in appearance.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

In 30 years.

[Theo Von]

Why is that?

[Craig Newmark]

Well, I talked to a lot of people, and they want it simple, fast, effective. They want what you see is what you get. And we've heard from a lot of designers who want fancy.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And fancy may not be the answer for a lot of things.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

Sometimes, you know, you do see something which is impressive. Fancy and yet effective. But that seems to be the minority.

[Theo Von]

Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is. You know what you want. What do you want? Yeah, you want heavy equipment outside of South Jersey. What do you want? You know, you want biotech out, you know, in Mendocino. You know, you want legal issues, you know, you want rideshare, you want Rodeo interests outside of Fort Worth. It's just. It's all right there, you know?

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

You can put it together quick. Even a simple. Even someone who isn't technologically advanced could go here. And even the terms you have on there, it's like childcare. Right. Pets, rants and raises. Like, it's just. It's. Anything you could need is kind of right here.

[Craig Newmark]

And that means the site is always fast.

[Theo Von]

And it is, because it's not a lot of big background. Wow.

[Craig Newmark]

And see, we've helped people in the tens of millions or more put food on the table.

[Theo Von]

But jobs, you mean, and selling things.

[Craig Newmark]

Exactly.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

And advertise their services. But also, the site is so simple. We've shown tens or maybe hundreds of millions of Americans that the Internet could be useful and reasonably easy to use. And that meant a lot of people who may have been hesitant to get on the net. They get on the Net, and again, that's fairness for everyone. That's treating people like you want to be treated, and that ain't bad.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Fairness. That's an important word, huh? It's important to you.

[Craig Newmark]

Very much so, because you try. Sometimes it's hard. There are often tough decisions to be made, but Jim took over that for the company, and maybe he's done a better job than I ever could. And I did make for a great.

[Theo Von]

Customer service rep. What made you choose Jim Buckmaster. What was it about him when you interviewed him?

[Craig Newmark]

He believed in the mission, and he was good on the technology side because he, in A way had two jobs, manager and programmer. Because getting good programmers is hard. And Jim, over time, hired a tech staff. Everyone better at their job than I was.

[Theo Von]

Wow, that's cool. It's also cool to hear you recognize that, like, yeah, these people are better than I was. You know, to learn where your spaces were best.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah, I'm funnier than any of them are, of course. But that may not be a high bar. Well, they did sometimes did great things. And they would sometimes pull out great ads of all sorts, particularly missed connections. And for a while ran a running Best of Craigslist, although I haven't looked at that in a while. You see, with the philanthropy stuff I'm doing, that's consuming, I'm now working harder than I've ever been. Wow. Because I guess I am in a mission. You know, vets and their families need our help.

[Theo Von]

So that's one of your important causes. I know. Independent journalism veterans. What is another philanthropic cause you enjoy specifically?

[Craig Newmark]

Also active service members and their families.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

Without going on at length. I'm shocked that military families aren't paid enough to get both a good place to live and food. And the model used to be the volunteer army would be single guys. Well, there's a lot of families. They're relocated about 600,000 times a year.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And that's where Blue Star families comes in. I can go on at great length and I think I'll stop there.

[Theo Von]

But that's the name of an organization that you help support.

[Craig Newmark]

Yes. Well, Bob Woodrow foundation for vets.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

25 million from last night.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Craig Newmark]

And I happen to have a meeting, an event with Blue Star families, which could also use something like that, but.

[Theo Von]

Which I won't pre announce a fundraising event. Well, if you guys ever need a comedian at one, I'd love to come. I can't believe it. I wish I'd have known last night. I would have gone. That would have been awesome.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, the connection is through Caroline Hirsch.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

Who used to run Caroline's and now runs the New York Comedy Festival.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. That's going on this week.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. That's a world I know nothing about. I kind of would like to, but people are busy. I should do other things. The comedy seller is down the street from me. I've never gone in.

[Theo Von]

Really?

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. Well, they seem to be booked all the time.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, they're pretty. And it's limited seating. Two in there.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. And they're supposed to open at least one more space and. Yeah, I should get off my butt and do something. But there's always lots more work. Not only my own work, but let's say my in laws need some help.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah, they always do.

[Craig Newmark]

Fortunately, we can do a good job about that, but I got to stay focused on the areas where I'm doing some good.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Craig Newmark]

The cybersecurity part is part of that because this is the new war.

[Theo Von]

And did you start to learn that? Where did that interest come from? Where did that realization that cybersecurity is going to be such a big thing? Was there a lot of attacks on security at Craigslist? Did that happen?

[Craig Newmark]

Well, there is always something, but we had a good team for that.

[Theo Von]

Right, but do you have to have that? Like what say if someone was attacking Craigslist, this is what I'm asking. What would they be trying to get?

[Craig Newmark]

Well, they would be trying to disrupt service.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

They would try to try to steal proprietary information, which did happen.

[Theo Von]

What does proprietary information mean? I'm sorry, Craig.

[Craig Newmark]

Proprietary information at any company is like secret information, like payroll, client list. We didn't have much of that because we are a simple classified site. But people thought that we had some quote unquote, secret sauce.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Some big fancy stuff.

[Craig Newmark]

And the irony is that that was never the case. And yet people tried to do things. There were some problems with leakages of that information. But the problem that. I'm not concerned with that at Craigslist now. I'm concerned. Well, I've been reading about this for decades and now I see that an adversary would do something like. Well, you know, they would try to. A form of warfare would be to try to jam or hack a drone.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Craig Newmark]

If they turn your drone against you, wow, you're going to have a bad day. If it's an autonomous drone, one that's figuring out where the enemy is for itself. If they could subvert it, they would turn our autonomous drone back against us. That would make for someone's bad day.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Imagine if they. If we send out a drone and it's supposed to get information, send it to artillery unit or a missile that's supposed to fire automatically from the information from that drone. And they're able to hack it. We could. You could literally. Our army could kill themselves. Wow.

[Craig Newmark]

There's a lot of mundane things like our. Well, our hot water heaters at home are, you know, becoming Internet connected. So sometimes they could diagnose it remotely. Boilers like that in factories, there are painting robots and those things, if hacked, they could start running them at high. An oven could be just told to run it high until it burns, causes a fire. And if there's a few fires like that, your first responders can deal. But if there's a thousand, you have a problem.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. If somebody hacks your ovens, you don't even think about that. Somebody hacks your ovens, next thing you know, there's 1100 fires in an area.

[Craig Newmark]

Now, the deal is that there's room for optimism, for helping, because there are already people who are really good at dealing with this. What I'm doing is gathering together, funding them so that they could work together, starting to work with local governments everywhere, everywhere through the country, starting to come up with, let's say, some best practices, because we have some breathing space, we think.

[Theo Von]

Got it.

[Craig Newmark]

And the idea is that, you know, water supplies, power supplies, they also go down because of natural disasters. They need to be resilient. They need to be where you knock them down. They can come back up in a small amount of time.

[Theo Von]

Well, it's even funny, like, even with drones, like, when I was a kid, you had to do a little bit of peep and tomming. Right. If you wanted to look into somebody's window, you had to go over there.

[Craig Newmark]

I don't know anything about that.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. I'm not saying you do.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

And I, you know, and I'm not saying I do. You know what I'm saying? But I do, you know, But I did. I know. But, yeah, somebody here does, and it's me. But what I'm saying is this. Now as a kid, you can use a drone, and that's the laziest thing we. You had to go risk getting beat up by a woman's husband to look in their window, even if they were just cooking or whatever. Right. I might get lewd with it. I'm just saying, you know, but now you can just get a drone and go do it. It's like. Just breaks my heart.

[Craig Newmark]

Some of that stuff in Manhattan, apparently that's illegal. And like, oh, right now, I wonder. I like my tech toys.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

I would get a drone, and I would be bored with it after a few minutes.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

My neighbor kids would enjoy it because they would learn how to use it really well. And their parents have vetoed the idea for the reason you mentioned.

[Theo Von]

I'm sure. I didn't even think about that. Yeah. Because I'm still, like, just squinting real hard and hoping I'm seeing something.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, you know, it's a big problem in New York.

[Theo Von]

I bet. That's awesome.

[Craig Newmark]

Lots of big problems, lots of big cities all near each other. And A contested airspace because we need the cops to have drones.

[Theo Von]

That's just getting crazy. Yeah. You don't think about all of those things. You don't think about all the ways that we could be hacked and the immediate effects of it.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. So we need to protect ourselves in all sorts of ways. And that's why the idea is to build networks of volunteers who are run in, let's say, the nonprofit world, the NGO world, and that way then they cooperate with other parties. But we do have to. Well, it's like World War II. We looked out for each other. Everyone tried to play their part. And the looking out for each other in that positive way isn't bad.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And like right now, if something starts happening weird with my baby camera equivalent, I would like to be able to get help from someone.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Craig Newmark]

And even worse, if the oven started running away, I would want to know what to do about that.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah. When Craigslist, when you. At what point were there ever like categories that you wouldn't do? Were there ever?

[Craig Newmark]

Very early on we heard in large numbers that people didn't want gun sales on the site. And there I am thinking, because I still have some influence then there are constitutional rights there, but one of them is property rights. So if you have a site, it's your property. You get to set the rules. So you decide what's right and wrong there. So I believe in property rights and freedom of choice. And that's what you exercise and that's what people do through the net. It's your site, your thing, you decide what the rules are.

[Theo Von]

So you were able to. So you actually got to decide that or not decide it. Are you in your team?

[Craig Newmark]

Team? Okay, I had an opinion, but I wanted the team as such as it was to work it out. That was a little bit of good management. But I couldn't consistently deliver good leadership. And even now I'm not a top down kind of leader. Maybe I could lead by example. My frustration in a way is that I want to be able to lead by example when it comes. There's a lot of people with a lot of discretionary money billionaires who maybe could be doing really good stuff with that. And I'd like to have the skills to inspire them.

[Theo Von]

Understood.

[Craig Newmark]

I don't have those skills.

[Theo Von]

Well, I don't even. I mean, I think even here and today, the things that you care about are things that sometimes I don't even think to care about in some ways, or fears that I don't think that, you know, you don't Even think that, oh, somebody has to. We need to have. A person needs to donate to this because maybe our country isn't worried about it enough yet. You know, it's. You know. So I think it sounds like you're doing a good job when you did your company. Yeah, because I'm trying to think like. So guns was a thing. Did you guys end up selling them on there or.

[Craig Newmark]

No, no, he said no.

[Theo Von]

Guns and swords, anything.

[Craig Newmark]

I. I have a feeling swords are okay, but I've never thought about it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I'm trying to think of some. I mean, because he is.

[Craig Newmark]

I mean, drugs are illegal. They're off.

[Theo Von]

So drugs were off, but people would try to skirt around that. But even then, some of that was sometimes also. Now, were there ever caught, like, could the cops use your site as well if they wanted to? Like, as decoy type of stuff?

[Craig Newmark]

I hear gossip about that. I don't know how true that really is.

[Theo Von]

Right, because you don't know. Right.

[Craig Newmark]

I do know that the cops have used the site in different ways to fight crime sometimes. Let's suppose they think they see a stolen item being. Being listed on the site. Then they would. Well, this is true for anything on the net. If a cop sees something they think is wrong and they have a shot at doing something about it, they send a subpoena or search warrant to the site, and then the operators usually pass it to their lawyers, and then the site operators provide the forensic evidence to the cops, which again, is like CSI and just fighting crime there. The deal is, in this country we have these checks and balances in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. And, you know, the founders of the country did a really good job of that.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

You know, there are amendments and so on which we only thought of years after, but the people who did the initial work did great work, and it, for the most part, stands up today.

[Theo Von]

They built a good structure over there. Yeah. Well, it's funny because you guys there was. Yeah, it's just like, it's such a part of history, you know, it's such a. I mean, I went on dates from it. I remember I met a girl. We. I met a girl on. I mean, I would use casual encounters too. You know, it's like that was. Sometimes I met a girl one time and we watched a Nets game and made love honestly. And she let me sign our cast. Right. And I was like, you know, and it was. We had a great time. I think we. I think we dated for.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, there's. There's no accounting for taste. Yeah. But I'm glad. I'm glad.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I know. Who wants to be a Mets fan?

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. Your guys can remember that one for later years.

[Theo Von]

Oh, they've been on there, dude. I think we accidentally met up once. Um, but there was a place, you know, I was like, I had such a tough time at a certain point in my life dating. There was something that added a level of mystery about it that I really liked.

[Craig Newmark]

I've never thought about that.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

Everyone works differently. Everyone does have different tastes, and that's none of my business.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

You know, as long as it's legal.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. It was legal. Did you. It's funny to say that people started marriages, so people even got married off of putting out a dating. Like, I would like to meet someone.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Wow. Did you ever get invited to a wedding or anything?

[Craig Newmark]

I have gotten invited a number of times. I'm not much for ceremonies or galas or anything like that. And my relatives know this very well. I have a dispensation to not go to some of the more obscure events on my wife side.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And I'm. And I'm on the record. I'm very grateful.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. I think your comedy is getting better.

[Craig Newmark]

I've promised to. If I'm offered open mic night, I will not do it.

[Theo Von]

Is pornography causing a problem in your life? Do you find yourself watching porno for longer periods of time and having trouble stopping? Is porn affecting your relationship or dating life? Well, you're certainly not alone. Watching pornography has become so commonplace today and oftentimes men use porn to numb the pain of loneliness, boredom, anxiety and depression. Shame and stigma prevent men from talking about these issues and getting help for them. I want to introduce you to my friend, Steve. Steve is the founder of Valor Recovery, a program to help men overcome porn abuse and sexual compulsivity. Steve is a Long term Sexual Recovery member and has personally overcame the emotional and spiritual despair of abusing pornography and has dedicated his life to empowering men to do the same. Steve is an amazing person and he is a close friend of mine. I mean that. Valor Recovery helps men to develop the tools necessary to have a healthier sex life. Their coaches are in long term recovery and will be your partner, mentor, and spiritual guide to transcend these problematic behaviors. To learn more about Valor Recovery, please Visit them at wwecoverycoaching.com or email them at admin@valor recoverycoaching.com thank you. When you guys. At what point did you realize, okay, I need to. Had you had enough of the day to Day. What made you start to decide? I want to sell the company.

[Craig Newmark]

I haven't sold the company.

[Theo Von]

Oh, you haven't sold. Okay, sorry.

[Craig Newmark]

Here's the history. To prevent some confusion, okay. I gave a guy some equity. I made it a gift, okay. On the expectation that he'd deliver. That may have not happened, but he wanted to sell. Sold to ebay. Didn't work out, and we bought that equity back from ebay.

[Theo Von]

Nice.

[Craig Newmark]

Now what I've done is I had a chunk of equity stock, and again, thinking, I don't need this. So I created a 501c4 foundation, put all the equity in there, and that's what generates dividends and sales.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

And that's what I'm using to fund these things. So I now have a good idea of how much money I have to give away with in the rest of my life.

[Theo Von]

Because you can look at the residual, the dividends and the earnings.

[Craig Newmark]

That's that kind of stuff. And I figure I've got five to 20 years, and I know roughly how fast I should do it. And my trouble, though, is that I'm 72, 20 years out. I may have to conduct due diligence via a seance.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And Ouija boards don't have the bandwidth I need, so I may just come back and haunt people.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Hey, that would be awesome. Yeah. Oh, I could definitely see a spirit looking for a place to stay.

[Craig Newmark]

You know, you have an excellent point there. Although computers don't operate very well in the afterlife. Although I'm making an assumption. I don't know if that's true.

[Theo Von]

So you still own it?

[Craig Newmark]

Oh, this is an important distinction. I now own no equity. It's in that foundation, 501c4.

[Theo Von]

Okay. So the company was transferred into a foundation or sold to a foundation.

[Craig Newmark]

My parts of it. Other people do own chunks of the company.

[Theo Von]

Got it.

[Craig Newmark]

And they do what's right for them.

[Theo Von]

Okay, me.

[Craig Newmark]

What's right for me is, frankly, to keep a little for myself because the wife insists that she needs to buy socks.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And so we have some leftover which we do share with family. And. But the vast bulk of it is now for charity. I mean, just yesterday, a guy, I guess an economist, analyzed what I would have made had I done the usual Silicon Valley thing. He said, now I'd be worth 11.

[Theo Von]

Billion if you had saved the company and just sold it.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, if I did the usual.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Craig Newmark]

And maybe he's right. I don't understand the analysis.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Craig Newmark]

But I don't know what I would do with that?

[Theo Von]

$11 billion.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

What would you even do it? How many. Yeah. Because how much money can you put in your bank?

[Craig Newmark]

Well, I don't think about it. There are some luxuries I like, but I don't own a car really, frankly, between the subway and, and Uber cabs or Lyft, that's what I need.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And again, this is not altruistic or anything like that. This is just being sensible and altruistic.

[Theo Von]

Just so our listeners know, altruistic means.

[Craig Newmark]

That you sometimes value helping other people more than yourself.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

It's the Bible thing.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Craig Newmark]

And I agree. I just, my variation of have enough to be comfortable and to indulge your family, maybe friends sometimes, and then better to give stuff away. It's a difficult balance because the future is unpredictable and I guess it's gotten more unpredictable. But there are people who need a lot of. Where I can help without digging into my personal stuff.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Understood. Yeah. I just wanted to know because. Yeah. Sometimes I forget and sometimes maybe some of our listeners forget. Did you ever feel like other tech companies, even though they were probably, I bet, secretly jealous, looked down at Craigslist because it was this, like. What was that like? I just wonder.

[Craig Newmark]

They've, they're, they're quite explicit. They don't, it's not a secret, they don't like this model we have of doing well by doing good. Sometimes, let's say they're not respectful of it. And that's okay.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

The thing is, I remember what I learned in Sunday school and people often forget. And again, not pious of me or anything like that.

[Theo Von]

No, I think it's fair to stand up for also what you are aiming for.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, I've met a bunch of rich people. None of them are all that happy.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And yeah, having too much money is a. Is a big trap and you get surrounded by people, by yes men and you get insulated from the needs of regular people and that does some real damage.

[Theo Von]

How do you keep yourself balanced from that? Yeah, because it's interesting because you seem like someone who would have a fair answer to what are some of the side effects, the negative side effects of.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, the deal is that it.

[Theo Von]

Money. Of having some money, you know, or coming into some money.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. The deal is to be a little bit as cheap as I was when I grew up in the 50s and to do things for yourself or by yourself, like especially going across town. I don't need to take a car. The subway is usually better. And so I do that. Although I did get here on a limo because someone else paid for it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And they really wanted to. Good. So the deal is that and I now and then I like, will go to a fancy dinner.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah, that's nice. You have to treat yourself to good food.

[Craig Newmark]

The thing is that you could find good food a lot more cheaply and with a little bit more fun. And so a lot of those things I just don't. I just don't get. And I wouldn't mind having a smaller house, but the wife's side of the family is very, very large.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

I have a. One nephew and one niece. The nephew just got married and I had to attend that one.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

However, on my wife's side, we have 20 nephew and nieces.

[Theo Von]

Oh, that's too many.

[Craig Newmark]

Well, it mostly means that I've learned to control my language because I don't want to. I don't want to catch shit from any of my relatives.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And it works out pretty well. Typically. I know, as they say, that when the kid is allowed to watch hbo, I'm allowed to use saltier languages.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. I like that, buddy. Yeah. Only salt in our languages. Yeah. I was just wondering what was. What was. Was there one thing like, it was whether it was a. Something like. Of like a. Like a specific Leonard Cohen piece, a record that he made that he'd autographed. Was there one nice thing you bought for yourself that. What was something that was meaningful to you?

[Craig Newmark]

I bought some of the prints that he made.

[Theo Von]

Oh, you did? Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

He's an artist. For real. The thing which I regret is that around here there was an auction of a lot of his letters and stuff, and I should have overindulged myself, but it was the first auction I actually seriously participated in. And I just didn't get anything.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, man.

[Craig Newmark]

I don't recognize. I didn't have anything in color. I did is a black and white prints. And you're heading into some of the ones that just passed the ones in the middle right now. Two of them, I think I have.

[Theo Von]

Wow, that's cool.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. Especially the one that's exactly what I have.

[Theo Von]

Really?

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. And I may have that one on a T shirt.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Something like. That's nice, man. Especially if it's art or something like that. It's like, you know, if I could go back in time. There was like a time. One time I was in. I was in Tanzania, you know, and I was doing Mount Kilimanjaro.

[Craig Newmark]

Okay.

[Theo Von]

Right. And we. And afterwards we went someplace and had a piece of art in there. And it was like $500, right. And I could spend like maybe $300, but I wished I'd have spent because going like it was 15 years ago. And it's like, you know, the $200 didn't. Wouldn't have changed my life that much. You know, it was a lot of money at the time, but it's like I didn't even think about it two weeks later or two months later, you know, So I just wish that I would have. Because I really liked the painting, you know, I was like, God, I just. And sometimes I wish, like every now and then there's little things like that I wish I'd have gotten like a nice piece of art or something, you know?

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. And the. Let's see, on my side of the house, that's the biggest investment I've made in art. My wife was an art major, so she knows this stuff. And a lot of it these days is cheap at auction. And she's good at that. Yeah, she's gotten good at a number of things, including free upgrades while flying.

[Theo Von]

Oh yeah, It's a deal.

[Craig Newmark]

That's her new hobby. Oh yeah, she's good at it.

[Theo Von]

I'm trying to think of something else. Were there other. So Craigslist was kind of the stepchild of the tech industry in a weird way, was. It looked like that. Because I could imagine how j jealous. Because here's people putting billions and millions of dollars into building this thing, this new avenue and all these venture capitalists and stuff like that. And then they. All this advertising. And here you are with this basic kind of peer to peer. How can I offer something that could potentially help my neighbor or connect two neighbors that could use something.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah, we've always been an outlier. As one person put it, we're one of the few ungentrified sites on the net.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And I guess we like it that way. Not everything has to be expensive or fancy to give credit to a site I consider undentrified. That's a Wikipedia. Wikipedia is where facts go to live. And in the long run, Wikipedia, I think, is the most important of all sites. I work with him and even in New York, I'm working with their local chapter to give classes. Wikipedia for beginners.

[Theo Von]

Really?

[Craig Newmark]

Well, when you get to write an article or change an article, that gives you a lot of power. Well, in a small way, to determine how people think of things. You get to write history.

[Theo Von]

Oh, and some of it's not true. Like there's stuff on my Wikipedia, like attaching Me to, like, part of my family. Like, they have half my family members wrong on it and stuff, and it puts me in it. It's crazy.

[Craig Newmark]

I'm like, all right, the deal, unlike newspapers, well, they don't correct themselves normally, especially not in a big way. But in Wikipedia, you can do that. And basically you can get a good citation, some evidence of what's right and wrong, and then send it to someone who knows how to edit it.

[Theo Von]

And they can do it.

[Craig Newmark]

They can do that.

[Theo Von]

Oh, dang.

[Craig Newmark]

And I gotta get in there. Yeah. You guys know how to get hold of me.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

And then I know I can get hold of someone who knows how to do the edits, at least how to do. I have not gone to the class yet.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

And yeah, the deal is that the system isn't perfect, but it's better than anything anyone else has tried.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, it's true.

[Craig Newmark]

And things do get fixed. It may not happen as fast as anyone wants, but again, there's things, let's say in the newspaper of record and things which I know are wrong and which have been presented to them and they're just not going to fix it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. And they don't want to.

[Craig Newmark]

I don't understand the reason.

[Theo Von]

They want to shape history.

[Craig Newmark]

Sometimes you think, well, the deal is they some, you know, they were brought something which was wrong, it was proven to be wrong, and they. They say they weren't going to be truth vigilantes. And I guess I disagree.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Well, that's a big thing about information now. It's like, it's something I worry about with AI, because if there's. And even just the history of the web, like things in the history of the web, because people can alter that over time.

[Craig Newmark]

There's big problems with that now. A number of AI systems are feeding on the output of other AI systems, which could be hallucinating or it could be, if you train, compromised. Yeah. Well, that's one way to do that. And I like the idea of really good AI replacing or supplementing search, but I worry about that also because even if I just casually screw around, I can get the AI systems to produce wrong information. And I talk about it with some of the people at these companies and hope that they get it right. I do have a lot of hope for AI doing customer service, because if it's done with commitment, if it's done right, it can be done much better. Because sometimes, like, you call up for customer service, you get a call center someplace where they just don't know how.

[Theo Von]

To do it, they don't know.

[Craig Newmark]

And I try to be kind to people who have been effectively sabotaged by their management. Sometimes I become less impatient than I should be.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, you'll call customer service, and they're like, we don't even know what you're talking about, but they still answer the phone. I'm like, who are you?

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. Instead of complaining about that, I'm trying to talk about it. And I am putting my money where my mouth is. Like, for Consumer Reports, which I'm involved.

[Theo Von]

With and working with a lot with the magazine website.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

Because they're trustworthy. And the idea is that, yeah, I would enjoy working with an AI system, which would be responsive and give me good information. And even if it can't, maybe it would kick it to a person who might have to do research, but at least they would be good at it.

[Theo Von]

Understood. Yeah. I actually have a question about that, but I want to remember to ask this. How did Craigslist make money?

[Craig Newmark]

Oh, oddly enough, since we run very lean. Jim runs us very lean. And even though we minimally charge, that makes enough because we're not expected to produce great results for VCs.

[Theo Von]

Provincial capitalists. So you don't have these money guys. Like, I need my return, Right? Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

If no one's invested millions in us, we don't have to go public. No one's looking to get billions. And I'm happy with the current results.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

The future is scary sometimes, but this works out pretty well.

[Theo Von]

You've also talked a lot about. Yeah, that's your water.

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Theo Von]

I have just, like, one or two more questions. Sure. That. Or I can get it for you.

[Craig Newmark]

I'm stubborn.

[Theo Von]

You're stubborn.

[Craig Newmark]

I am stubborn.

[Theo Von]

Oh, my God, dude. You're crazy, Craig. Because I've never heard somebody imagine I'm trying to open a water, right? I can't open it. And then I say, I'm stubborn. Like, I'm stubborn. I don't. I. It didn't even make sense to me. It was very. That was very funny. Well, you're like, I can't open it. And I was like. And I don't know if you could open it out. I was just trying to. I. I don't know. But I was like, oh, can I help you? And then you're like, I'm stubborn. But to me, in my head, I was like, he can't open it, but he just. The bottle's stubborn anyway. Doesn't make any sense.

[Craig Newmark]

My deal is that as an Old man, I'm happy when I can still do some things.

[Theo Von]

Oh, I see what you're saying. You've talked a lot about independent journalism, right?

[Craig Newmark]

Okay.

[Theo Von]

And that's something that, like, I've read anyway, is near and dear to your outlook in the world.

[Craig Newmark]

Okay. Well, what we learned in US History in this high school class is that a free and trustworthy press is just required to keep a republic alive. And the whole media system is fractured in all sorts of unpredictable ways. You're part of that. I'm a lesser part of it. And I don't know what to do now, except that I try to support things that I know work, like the. The journalism school at the City University of New York.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Craig Newmark]

And Wikipedia is now modern journalism. There are other things that I try to help, but I'm confused and I'm kind of paralyzed around a lot of this. So I did a lot in the past, but these days I just trying to focus in those areas where I can help Americans defend the country, because that's a well defined good, which we need in a big way right now. And like service members, active or veteran, and their families have given up a lot for us and we don't treat them right. So I could do something about that. Cyber warfare is a thing and it needs help because the government can do some stuff, but everyone needs to play a role. Like In World War II, everyone needs to harden their systems a little bit, depending on how much of a target you are.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. It's funny, I didn't realize until you said some of those things, like, what if suddenly all of our cars were compromised or half of them, or all of our ovens were compromised to the point where they started fires in all of our homes? You know, I was just kind of fascinating to me, you know?

[Craig Newmark]

Well, it means also I've read too much science fiction in my time. But if. If 1% of those systems were compromised, that alone is a big problem.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. And we don't even realize it. Were there other businesses that you tried to start before or after?

[Craig Newmark]

No. I am not a real businessman. It's been a happy accident. I'm like any success I've had has been by accidentally being in the right time at the right place. And that makes me the forest gump of the Internet.

[Theo Von]

But also with the right attitude to bring one person to another. You know, try to keep the golden rule in your mind. Things you learn from Sunday school. What about, are your parents pretty proud of you? Your parents still alive, Greg?

[Craig Newmark]

They passed long ago. Oh.

[Theo Von]

They Did.

[Craig Newmark]

I'm sure they would be. I know that my high school history teacher learned about his contributions to all my stuff. He heard about it when. While he was still around. And that was a big deal.

[Theo Von]

Oh, that probably meant a lot, huh?

[Craig Newmark]

Yeah. And well, because teachers work hard for little pay.

[Theo Von]

Oh yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

So anything, anytime they have any long term effect is a big deal. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. It's so funny. I like I still keep in touch with a lot of my teachers, you know, it's important to me.

[Craig Newmark]

I should. But at my age, there may not be many left.

[Theo Von]

Well, that's why we got to get that Ouija board going.

[Craig Newmark]

Yes.

[Theo Von]

You know, I think that's the next level. What are some. What are some small. Before you leave, Craig, what are some goals in your life like right now? I know you've talked about some of the kind of work oriented and giving back. Are there any kind of personal goals or are there anything like. I don't know, is there any kind of goals you have even if they're just like human to yourself, things you still want to learn or do professionally?

[Craig Newmark]

I want cybersecurity to be a household word that everyone takes seriously. Personally, I'll be glad if the dentist tomorrow uses nitrous oxide.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Craig Newmark]

And I will make the same joke over again. That is can I take the bottle home? And he will refuse me. But we like to do that.

[Theo Von]

No, we do like to do that. I think that's good guys. Pretty good. Is there anything else that you want to share that's important to you?

[Craig Newmark]

I think you got it all. And I think people will be tired of hearing from me after 90 minutes.

[Theo Von]

Well, look, I do know if you really want to get some nitrous oxide, you might be able to find someone Craig's list.

[Craig Newmark]

I've been advised by my medical team against it. Well, I can remember well for sure is like the Batman says, I'm not the nerd you want, but I'm the nerd you got.

[Theo Von]

Man, I don't know how somehow I almost get your sense of humor now, Craig.

[Craig Newmark]

It's very interesting that that might be tragic.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, well thank you man. Thank you for. I like. I just like some. I like your initial goals of like. My goal is to help one person find something this person's in need. This person might have this. How can I be of service there learning when you notice that I'm not a good manager of this So I need to get some help here. Right. It's not a strong suit of mine. Maybe this world but the customer relations is a strong suit of mine, you know, and. And that's interesting, just because, you know, sometimes we all feel like we have to do everything in different spaces and then. Yeah. And I'm glad you found a lady along the way. How long have you. How long has your marriage been now?

[Craig Newmark]

Married 12. And together? 20.

[Theo Von]

That's great.

[Craig Newmark]

And it's good that I'm better at remembering those dates than she is.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Amen. Craig Newmark, thank you so much, man.

[Craig Newmark]

Hey, it's my pleasure.

[Theo Von]

I appreciate your time. Now I'm just floating on the breeze? And I feel I'm falling like these leaves? I must be cornerstone?

[Craig Newmark]

Oh?

[Theo Von]

But when I reach that ground? I'll share this piece of my life found? I can feel it in my bones?

[Craig Newmark]

But it's gonna take a little.