Podcast Summary: The Science of Imagined Worlds – Evolution and Ecology for World Builders

Podcast: This View of Life
Episode Title: The Science of Imagined Worlds: Evolution and Ecology for World Builders
Guests: Carlo Maley, Vaughn Aktipis-Maley, Host – David Sloan Wilson
Date: August 22, 2025

Episode Overview

In this dynamic and interdisciplinary conversation, evolutionary biologist Carlo Maley, his son Vaughn Aktipis-Maley, and host David Sloan Wilson (with lively contributions from designers and audience) explore the intersection of evolutionary theory, ecology, and fantasy world-building—especially as applied to games like Dungeons & Dragons (D&D). The group discusses their project, "Evolution and Ecology for World Builders," which offers scientific guidance for crafting believable living worlds in fiction, games, education, and beyond. The wide-ranging discussion uses D&D monsters as illustrative examples but extends to real-world applications in education, social systems, and even national security.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Origins of the Project & Personal Backstory

• [00:10–02:29]

  • The project bridges family ties (Carlo & Vaughn) and scholarly work, driven by a passion for Dungeons & Dragons and evolutionary biology.

  • Quote [01:14] - Carlo Maley:
    “I've done many things wrong as a father, but one of the things I've done right was to get Vaughn into Dungeons and Dragons ... both evolution is a common topic in our household, since both of Vaughn's parents are evolutionary biologists, and Dungeons and Dragons.”

  • [02:33] Vaughn recalls a family discussion about the evolutionary logic of the 'owlbear', deciding it likely evolved from bears.

  • Collaborators: Beckett Sterner (ASU) and designer Eric Michael Johnson (a long-time Dungeon Master) joined to bring art and academic rigor to the project.

2. Evolutionary Thinking for World Building

a. Convergent Evolution in Imagined Creatures

• [07:04–08:18]
  • Explains how similar traits can evolve in disparate lineages facing the same pressures (e.g., aquatic mammals resembling fish).
  • Quote [07:21] - Carlo Maley:
    “Convergent evolution is when you get the same kind of body shape because there's similar pressures ... in this case we're trying to understand how you could get a bear type ancestor to evolve some owl features ... Feathers are good insulators; maybe the owlbear evolved in the Arctic and evolved feather-like structures independent of birds.”

b. Evolutionary Fitness and Storytelling

• [08:18–09:27]
  • The importance of creatures ‘fitting’ their environment—the survival of the best-adapted, not just the strongest.
  • Emphasizes realistic ecosystems: predators, prey, parasites, and arms races, not just hero-villain binaries.

c. Designing Cave and Underdark Ecosystems

• [09:27–11:25]
  • Most cave creatures lose their eyes and pigmentation—suggesting 'albino' drow and orcs would make more biological sense than dark-skinned ones.
  • Features like echolocation or tremor sense are discussed as logical evolutionary adaptions.
  • [11:11]: Bats, dolphins, and even some cave birds demonstrate convergent evolution of echolocation.

d. Parasites and Realistic Food Webs

• [11:38–12:47, 18:22–19:57]

  • Real-world ecosystems contain abundant parasites and intricate webs, not simple predator-prey chains.

  • Quote [11:38] - Carlo Maley:
    “One of the ones that struck me is parasites...what if you've just killed a dragon and you think the story is over and you can relax, but then all the parasites emerge from the dying dragon because they need to find a new host?”

  • Advocates for monsters and stories that reflect realistic ecological structures—pyramids of prey and far fewer predators.

3. Life History Strategies & Teaching Evolution

• [12:47–16:56]
  • Life history theory: “live fast, die young” (like orcs or goblins) vs. “grow slow, die old” (elves or dwarves).
  • Carlo uses fictional species in university teaching to help students infer biological traits.
    • Studies showed no difference in exam outcomes when students read about real vs. fictional species but much higher engagement with fantasy-based materials.
  • Quote [15:13] - Carlo Maley:
    “Reading the fictional one was much better than the traditional one. They [students] thought it helped them on the exam, when it didn’t.”

4. Applying Evolutionary Logic in Game Mastering

a. Vaughn's Application in His Games

• [17:04–17:32]
  • Incorporating white-skinned (albino) dwarves in his own campaigns, especially ones based on Japanese mythology.
  • Touches on repositioning the “evil” species’ appearance, following biological logic rather than tropes.

b. Food Webs, Dragons, and Systemic Story Hooks

• [18:22–20:05]
  • Predators like dragons would require robust supporting ecosystems or behaviors (e.g., cultivating livestock, vast territories).
  • Quote [20:05] - David Sloan Wilson:
    “You can imagine an entire storyline in which the characters are interacting with the shepherds that work for these dragons.”

c. Real-world Historical Analogies

• [20:20–21:33]
  • Discusses Sparta: how exploitative societies can serve as models for fictional predatory structures (e.g., dragon overlords and their underlings).
  • [21:04] - Carlo Maley:
    “They only won about half of their battles ... only about 10% of their society were citizens. The other 90% essentially were slaves.”

5. The Biological (Species) Basis of Fantasy Races

a. Hybridization and Moral Implications

• [22:30–24:41]
  • The “species problem”: if orcs, elves, and humans can all interbreed, then biologically they are not different species but rather 'morphs' of a single one.
  • Ethics: If orcs are just another morph, shouldn't they possess equal moral capacities as elves or humans?
  • Quote [24:41] - Carlo Maley:
    “...maybe the reason we think of orcs as so evil is that humans have written all the stories about orcs … we should take the orcs’ perspective on this.”

b. The Case of Kobolds: Empathy and Cooperation

• [25:48–27:52]
  • Kobolds (“low-level monsters”) are often depicted as highly cooperative.
  • Proposes—based on their pack behaviors—they may have greater empathy than humans.
  • Quote [27:36] - Carlo Maley:
    “Maybe kobolds are actually the sweetest, most empathetic creatures in the Dungeons and Dragons world.”

6. Cultural Evolution Meets Biological Evolution

• [28:06–30:27]
  • Culture as a transmissible system: not just behaviors, but meaning systems, concepts, narratives.
  • Cultural evolution (e.g., oral histories, planning) allows even “short-lived” species (like goblins) to have impactful, adaptive social structures.
  • Applies to both fictional world-building and the real world, merging scenario planning (e.g., national security) with evolutionary thinking.

7. Real-world Applications and Broader Significance

a. Scenario Building and Complexity Science

• [31:08–34:40]
  • Sheila, a national security scenario designer, shares that these evolutionary concepts apply to real-world contingency planning and wargaming.
  • Advocacy for basic ecological and evolutionary literacy, both in fiction and real-world policy.

b. Cooperative Game Design

• [37:14–46:06]
  • Audience and hosts discuss games centered not just on conflict but on cooperation (e.g., games where the goal is for everyone to find what they need).
  • RPGs can and should offer space for nonviolent problem-solving and creative, pro-social play.
  • Quote [43:06] - Carlo Maley:
    “It's really up to the group what kind of stories they want to tell in these role playing games. And so there are structures, non warlike structures for dealing with this.”

c. Educational Practice

• [76:09–78:28]

  • Carlo gives extra credit in seminars for students who help others participate, emphasizing the value of collaboration and mutual support in learning environments.

  • Quote [76:20] - Carlo Maley:
    “I tell them that we're all a group together trying to learn this stuff together. So I sort of emphasize the cooperative nature of the seminar.”

  • David Sloan Wilson outlines projects to make entire university courses model units of cultural evolution, focusing on collaborative and pro-social rule design.

8. System Dynamics, Policy, and the “Third Sector”

• [62:18–71:09]
  • Conversation deepens on applying these concepts in government and policy, emphasizing the evolution of cooperation, cultural adaptation, and the importance of cross-boundary (network) approaches over traditional, hierarchical ones.
  • The notion of a “third sector”—a polycentric, self-organizing network—is floated as future social infrastructure.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the value of world-building for real life:

  • [33:42] Carlo Maley:
    "I think that we should...take our stories seriously and our fantasies seriously. Even in a fantasy or science fiction setting, it can help us envision how we want to change our world for the better."

• On rule systems and cultural evolution:

  • [54:48] David Sloan Wilson:
    “What you get depends on the population structure that you put into it ... we're creating the underlying social environment. That can make all the difference.”

• On the social learning power of fiction:

  • [41:18] Karen (audience, paraphrased by host):
    “One thing that fiction does is it enables you to engage without feeling threatened. If you talk to me about the real world, I'm going to be self-protective ... In fiction, I can throw myself into it.”

• On the real-world benefit of cooperative environments:

  • [57:21] Karen:
    “You can put two groups that never interact, that hate each other ... together in an environment where it pays them to cooperate and you change the people.”

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |:-|:-| | [00:10–02:29] | Family background and project origins | | [07:04–08:18] | Convergent evolution and fantasy monsters | | [09:27–11:25] | Designing realistic cave environments | | [12:47–16:56] | Teaching life history theory through fantasy | | [17:32, 18:22–20:05] | World-building applications: from albino orcs to dragon economies | | [22:30–24:41] | The species concept and moral implications in fantasy | | [25:48–27:52] | Kobolds and the logic of cooperation & empathy | | [31:08–34:40] | Systems thinking in war gaming and policy | | [43:06–46:06] | Using RPGs for pro-social education | | [54:48–57:21] | Rule structures in games and societal analogy |

Tone & Take-Aways

• The conversation is friendly, enthusiastic, and intellectually adventurous—filled with both scholarly rigor and warmth, especially around family ties and cross-generational learning.
• Participants embrace the blending of fun (gaming, fiction) with serious academic and real-world policy issues.
• The underlying message: evolutionary and ecological thinking can enrich not only our fictional worlds but also our social realities, promoting depth, realism, and pro-social outcomes in both.

Summary

This episode bridges the imaginative fun of fantasy role-playing with profound real-world implications. Whether you are a world-builder, an educator, a policy designer, or simply a curious listener, the discussion provides a toolkit: think ecologically, embrace complexity, design for cooperation, and remember that the worlds we create in our stories might shape the world we seek to build in reality.