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Thriving with Addiction with Dr. Jonathan Avery
Rise, Recover, Thrive: How Scott Strode Is Redefining Addiction Recovery
00:32:27
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the Thriving With Addiction podcast, where we explore how recovery is not just about surviving, but about truly living. Each week, we'll dive into the science stories and strategies that help people and families heal from addiction and build healthier, more resilient lives. I'm your host, Dr. John Avery. Let's get started. I'm John Avery, and welcome back to Thriving with Addiction. Today I'm joined by Scott Strode. Scott is the founder of the Phoenix, a national, sober, active community that helps people recover from addiction through fitness, connection, and purpose. After struggling with substance use in early adulthood, Scott got sober in 1997 and discovered that physical challenge and community were essential to his recovery. In 2006, he founded the Phoenix in Boulder, Colorado, creating a space where people in recovery could rebuild their lives together through movement and belonging. His memoir, Rise, Recover, Thrive, tells the story of his recovery and the movement he built to help others heal and thrive. Scott, welcome.
- [01:09]
B
Hey, thanks for having me on.
- [01:11]
A
No, it's great. Great to meet you. I was telling you before we started, I've heard so many good things about you. I can't believe this is the first time we're meeting, and I've seen your organization help so many of my. My patients and other people I know in recovery.
- [01:24]
B
Oh, that's good to hear. Yeah. We're trying to do our best to really change how our country is approaching addiction to one that focuses on empowerment and the intrinsic strength in people.
- [01:37]
A
One of the most magical moments of my clinical career was I was in Brooklyn with my family. We were, I think, at a soccer birthday party or something like that. I don't live in Brooklyn. And we were making our way around, and I saw a group of people that had just exited. I think it was like a yoga class or a CrossFit Phoenix class. And I saw two of my patients in that group, one of them who had never benefited from 12 step work. And to see them, I think it was on a Saturday evening doing the good work. It speaks to how you guys are everywhere.
- [02:12]
B
Oh, that's great to hear. Yeah, it's neat. As Phoenix has grown, even for me, sometimes I'll be traveling for. For work and I have my Phoenix shirt on, and somebody will see me at an airport, and they're like, hey, man, where do you go to Phoenix? You know, it's kind of neat to see, you know, we're. We're. We're reaching a lot of people. We served over a million people.
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A
That's amazing. And I don't think you set out to create such a giant Organization. Tell me about your story and what led you to this place.
- [02:45]
B
Yeah, sure. So, I mean, starting with my own story, I. I experienced early childhood trauma, grew up around a father with untreated mental health struggles and stepfather with untreated alcoholism. And then my mom's ism was workaholism. She, you know, was super accomplished, which was inspiring and something, you know, she modeled for me, but, but also had her outside of the home a lot as a kid. So I think as a kid I was in these really dynamic environments trying to figure out who I needed to be, to be loved and, and that created a self esteem wounds, honestly, that, that I ended up pouring drugs and alcohol on, trying to make it go away, which of course, you know, it's a coping mechanism. Mechanism that fails you as quick as it starts. And finally found my way into a boxing gym. And something about getting in the ring for the first time gave me this belief in myself that started to kind of seep into other parts of my life, including what ultimately became my sobriety. Then I tried climbing, then I tried triathlon, then I was just off and running, literally. So that was the kind of foundation of my, my recovery story.
- [04:04]
A
And tell me a little bit more about your parents. It sounds like that was, that was complicated. I think your, your dad had bipolar disorder. Is that right? And really struggled and yeah, we were
- [04:14]
B
pretty sure it was bipolar. He may have had some other stuff sprinkled in there, but, you know, for example, in a, in sort of a manic moment, he was a contractor and he decided he was going to tear out a wall in our house and build an addition. But then, you know, a couple weeks later lost interest in it and was in a depressive state and just we stapled up plastic over it. So we had, you know, literally three walls to our house and no, no running water inside and limited heat. And. And we were in rural Pennsylvania when we were with him. And. And then my mom, it was a very different, you know, world. She was super accomplished and ended up becoming friends with three different presidents. And you know, it was just very, very different environments. We went back and forth.
- [05:03]
A
How do you make sense of two very different worlds like that?
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B
It was, it was tough. And I think, you know, the complicating factor was, was alcohol was a big part of the culture that she married into after my father. And so all the people I admired growing up stood around a keg of beer or a liquor closet because a cabinet was too small for her. And so that's where I tried my first Beer. And I just wanted to sort of fit in with this group of folks, this new family that we surrounded ourselves with. And then I realized that my peers were interested in drinking and I knew where to get beer. And that was kind of the beginning of it.
- [05:49]
A
Okay, how did drinking and the use escalate over time?
- [05:55]
B
It was sort of tricky to understand when it became destructive behavior, because I think a lot of kids my age were experimenting with drugs and alcohol. But I started to realize that the sort of party would end and they would go home and I would keep using. And with a small group of people sometimes that were pretty extreme in how they used. And then they would go home and I'd be using by myself. And then more and more I was just using by myself. And, you know, I think substance use is so sort of insidious. It sort of starts to strip away the dreams of who you thought you could be until you don't really recognize yourself when you see yourself in the mirror. And I had that. That moment and wanted to make a change.
- [06:48]
A
Okay. And things progressed over time. When was it that you finally decided to make a change or how did it come to be?
- [06:56]
B
Yeah, I think that sort of inside of all of us is this drive towards self actualization. I mean, we can unpack that more, but this idea to find purpose and meaning in our own life and contribute to the world and to make it better, actually in some way. And I felt this drive to change. I knew what I was doing was leading me to a pretty dark place and didn't know how to get there. So I just kept trying new things. And I saw this brochure for ice climbing and I thought, that's the craziest thing I've ever seen. Maybe I'll sign up for a class. And I stayed sober Friday night to go climb on a Saturday. And I. I just fell in love with it. I. I felt challenged. And I got to the top of the climb and I felt some accomplishment and I wanted to do it again. So I. I saved up money and went the next week. And I started saying staying sober on the weekends so I could get out and climb. And, and during the week I would drink and then I'd get sober. So I kind of had this harm reduction path, but then had, you know, one more dark night of use on top of a whole bunch of other ones that, that stacked up. And. And I was pretty sure that addiction was how my life was going to end if I didn't make a change. And thinking of how that would impact my mom, who really was somebody I admired deeply, broke my heart. And that was, that was the last night I used to.
- [08:34]
A
And that was how many years ago now?
- [08:37]
B
28 and change. April 8th it'll be 29 years. So it's a while ago, long enough that I have to think about what the date was.
- [08:49]
A
That's good. And while it feels like there was sort of a rock bottom or a couple of escalating moments that felt really problematic, it wasn't 12 step work or therapy or diving in, in the ways that people often dive into recovery that got you there. It sort of was gradual. And then really was this focus on, on fitness and belonging, engaging in the world in a different way.
- [09:19]
B
Yeah, I think I was, I don't, I, I wasn't, didn't have this self awareness at the time, but I, I was surrounding myself with people who had a different vision for their life. You know, they wanted to climb mountains and they wanted to become better climbers and they wanted to become, you know, fight in the Golden Gloves as boxers or become a pro boxer. And so they were disciplined and focused in these sports and these activities. And you know, I didn't have this language then, but I started to feel in my body that when I worked out I could move my mind to a different place, to a better place than the mindset I had going into that workout. And that was sort of the early, sort of ember of what would later become the Phoenix. You know, this idea that move your body to move your mind. And if you surround yourself with people who, who are there for you on the tough days, you can be there for them on the tough days. And that gives you a sense of community that's actually lifting each other up.
- [10:27]
A
My sense was, reading your story, that it didn't come naturally. I think you've, I've heard you say at one point you were the guy drinking at the bar, yelling at people who were running by, like, where are you going? What are you running from?
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B
Yeah.
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A
So it, it, it, you weren't sort of naturally inclined in some ways to do this or were you?
- [10:43]
B
Oh, no, not at all. I mean, I think, I think when. Sometimes it can be intimidating to get into fitness and these endurance sports or whatever, these activities, but you gotta remember every single one of those people who's out there doing it tied on running shoes for the first time. They tied into a climbing rope for the first time. And that really was, was my journey too. Like I remember I, I was in recovery at this point. I started training for a triathlon I, I, you know, a super focused, gone to the pool, going out on my bike and gone for runs and I got to the race and my friend said, are you nervous? And I said, yeah. And I said, how can you tell? And she's like, oh, because you're putting on your wetsuit backwards, you know, so like zipping it up the front instead of the back. And, and I started to realize that like, you know, I'm not very good at this, but I'm gonna keep trying. And, and something about that, even striving to be better, gave me a sense of agency, that I could do hard things if I put my mind to it. And that that agency helped me too. And, and you know when you'd go out with friends to dinner and the waiter would come around and try to upsell you on some booze and I was in early recovery, I, I wouldn't get a drink, you know, because I had that fortitude that I had forged on the climbing rope and acrossing, crossing fin.
- [12:10]
A
And you talked about your childhood for a little bit, but there was a lot of trauma there and you mentioned sort of some difficult feelings it left you with. Did you later tackle those with therapy?
- [12:21]
B
Yeah. I think this probably won't surprise you given your background, but for me, it took a while for this to come up to a place where I could acknowledge that even in recovery, my athletic pursuits were trying to fill that void in my self esteem from those childhood wounds. You know, I, I would finish a race and I'd feel empty inside and I'd have to sign up for another race and I'd have to sign up for a longer one. And then I raced Ironman and then I had to try to qualify for the world championships. And you know, every time I would finish or miss those goals, I would feel that emptiness again that I used to pour drugs and alcohol on. And, and even starting Phoenix, I, when I started the Phoenix, the non profit that I founded with a great group of folks, I, I, I realized that I was trying to rescue people. And if I rescued enough people, I could convince myself that I had worth in this world. And, and that was a big moment for me. I, I had a, a friend who was also my therapist who said, if people are drowning in the well, you don't jump in the well to save them. You pull up one or two people, get the strength to come back the next day and help more. And that sort of reframed my work at Phoenix and I thought it's time for me to do that deep work and go into that childhood stuff and see if I can find some peace there. And I did. I went to a, the trauma immersion retreat that processed a lot of that pain from childhood and was able to kind of find this grace and love for my parents, knowing that they had been through their own challenges in their childhood and feel like I had an opportunity to really interrupt that generational transmission of that trauma by having it end with me. And I set out to, to try to do that. It's not sort of a box you check and then you're good. It's something that you have to be aware of triggers that you have of, of going into old emotional material, of personalizing things in, in that emotional material, you know, having outsized reactions to stuff that other people aren't having big reactions to. But it's sort of a practice. It's sort of like getting better at triathlon on the bike or running. You, you do it through repetition and reinforcement of the skills you want to develop. And that's how I laid the foundation for my long term recovery.
- [15:05]
A
And there's so much wisdom in the way you went about it, because I think people at times when they come to see someone like me or when they're trying to enter recovery, they think they have to understand the why and make all their peace with all the trauma before they get into recovery. But you can get into recovery first and that then creates this situation. Situation where you can then understand why you drank and why you, why you used.
- [15:30]
B
Yeah, I think that's a great point. I mean, I, I can tell you had my early recovery activities been, you know, chess or coffee socials, I don't know if I would have stayed sober. The fact that I was smashing a heavy bag with my hands, you know, and still had an outlet that, that, you know, is on that edge of sort of nurturing and self destruction, you know, it kind of stuck. I was, you know, I was young. I was in a city where it's all college town here in Boston. And I thought I was the only person that didn't drink. And so going to the boxing gym and smashing the heavy bag with my friends who were also boxers, you know, and we, we build a little fellowship. Some of them were in recovery. And sometimes that I think is what's special about the Phoenix is that the activities can be edgy and tough and hard to accomplish. But that might also be the hook that is keeping people here rather than them being out in their addiction.
- [16:34]
A
And if I think of the two I saw that were at the Phoenix One of them never liked 12 step work. The other was a big 12 step person. What's the relationship for you in 12 step work or not or 12 step work in the Phoenix in your mind?
- [16:49]
B
Yeah, I think for me, in my own journey, I didn't connect with 12 step because it was pretty. It was relatively early in, like the young people in twelfth Step. You know, there weren't. I didn't see a lot of folks that, that were like me in those meetings and felt like it was a lot of old guys, you know, coming out of prison and, and it just didn't feel like it clicked. But I went about six years later, I went back into the rooms and ended up working the steps and it was really cathartic for me and I had a great sponsor. But we also have folks that come to Phoenix that have never been to 12 step and never go, and folks that it's a big part of their life. But coming to Phoenix opens up their world in a different way. And I think of it this way. It's like there's a deep practice in the 12 step community of, of doing self work and thinking about how you're showing up in the world. But then there's the next step of showing up in the world and being in it and being connected to it and active in that world. And I think that's really where Phoenix comes in. It's. We, we most often are like standing shoulder to shoulder, dreaming about what's possible in our recovery rather than talking about our addiction story.
- [18:09]
A
All right, well, we've, we've circled the Phoenix. Let's, let's dive right in. Tell me about the origin story and, and, and all about you guys.
- [18:17]
B
Yeah, so it's, you know, just. We had a climbing partner who was sober and another climbing partner who was a clinical social worker. And we, we just were talking about how, how much climbing had changed our life. Being out at the cliff, being in these beautiful places where you experience awe. You know, you, you stand on, on top of a cliff that you had just climbed and you look down at the pine trees below you and the snow's falling and, and in that silence, you just feel at peace in the world. And, and all is such a powerful sort of inoculation against, against addiction, I think, because. Helps you find your place in the world. And we thought we need to share this with other people. And I set out on like, trying to figure out how to do that and came up with the, the name. Originally we were called Phoenix Multisport, but we rebranded as the Phoenix. And just because the Phoenix story fit so well in the recovery community, and we wanted it to be free, so it would just be people sharing a passion and love they have, which is climbing or biking or hiking. Our roots were in physical activity, but that later turned into book clubs and art night and socials and meditation and a whole bunch of other things. And the only cost of admission was 48 hours of sobriety. And that's still true to this day. It's a free program. We do have an ethos that you have to adhere to that says we're here to lift each other up, not pull each other down down. But with that simple framing, you can come to any Phoenix event, and they're happening in every state in the country, and thousands of thousands of them a week and virtually. And now we have volunteers who. Who lead them all over the country. We also record those activities and distribute them in prisons on. On educational tablets. So we're, you know, we're reaching, you know, 3, 400,000 people a year now with Phoenix programs. And it all started with a bike ride in North Boulder, Colorado. Me waiting at a coffee shop, hoping somebody would show up for my ride, and. And indoor climbing night, hoping the same that somebody would show up sometime. And finally one guy did, and that turned into over a million people served by it.
- [20:52]
A
So it's incredible. When did you realize that Phoenix was becoming something much bigger? It seems so the focus, so local at first, and before you know it, you're. You're everywhere.
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B
Yeah, we. We were trying to grow it everywhere. Not because we wanted to build a huge nonprofit, because it's actually really hard to run and fund, but because the need was so great. I kept hearing from people, you know, as the digital world expand, I mean, expanded. We started before Facebook even existed, but you started having more and more people reaching out through those channels, saying, my loved one's struggling. I wish you were here. I think you could help them. And we met a incredible group of funders who said, what if you could say yes to them starting Phoenix rather than you having to be everywhere? And we started empowering volunteers. And so somebody would reach out from a community and say, hey, I'm a runner. I'd love to help. I lost my sister to this, and I can't help her, but I could help others. And, boom, that becomes a Phoenix run. And then somebody else reaches out and wants to start a book club, and Phoenix starts in Detroit. And that's how it just started unfolding all across the country.
- [22:00]
A
And if someone's interested in joining, tell us about the 48 hour sober rule or how you guys navigate some of that.
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B
Yeah, I mean, it's 48 hours sober. It's an honor system. I feel like if you're, if you're lying about your 48 to be around happy, sober people, you probably need to be here too. And every now and then, somebody will show up under the influence and we just sort of. The coach or the trainer or the volunteer leader will often just sit with them and encourage them to come back the next day. But the ethos of Phoenix is the real magic, and it's just to create a physically and emotionally safe space that's inclusive and accessible. Um, so, you know, we're all welcome here and, and we want to leave here lifted. And if others start believing in you in those early days of recovery, it helps you start believing in yourself. And that's exactly what happened for me in the boxing gym. And we just want to share that
- [23:01]
A
with others and not just people struggling, but also their families.
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B
Yeah, yeah, we. And we allow allies and supporters and, you know, I think about all the big movements that have happened in our country that have made a meaningful change. None of those movements are led solely by the people impacted by that issue. For us to really transform how we approach addiction and mental health in our country, it's going to take all of us, all of us touched by it, not just people with lived experience, but the folks that love them, the civically minded people in communities, the people that are that are feeling the ripple of this in the, say, criminal legal system or the treatment space. It's going to take all of us coming together and approaching this in more of an empowerment way rather than seeing people struggling as folks to be managed.
- [23:56]
A
And what do you think surprises people most about recovery when they join the Phoenix?
- [24:03]
B
I guess, like kind of how. How actually joyous and fun it is to be in recovery. I think that's why we're seeing sort of the sober curious movement emerging. More people are realizing that sometimes not drinking or using is. Is just a path to be able to like, achieve your best and highest version of you. And I, I know when I quit smoking crack and drinking, binge drinking, I didn't think of myself on a path towards my highest and best self. I just didn't want to be in pain anymore. But, but other people can jump in on a different point of that continuum, you know, and, and I see my friends who are business leaders who just stop drinking because they want to. They want to perform as best they can in Their job. I see folks that just want to be really present and connected to their kids at this time in life. So they don't want to have three beers at night when they're hanging out with their toddlers, you know, so I've seen the profile of what it looks like to be in recovery shift over the years. And the beauty of Phoenix having that wide front door is everybody's welcome because we need all those folks to volunteer too, to help us reach even more people.
- [25:18]
A
And you were telling me before we started, there's more resources than ever. Tell us about the latest efforts from you guys.
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B
Yeah, yeah. So this is really exciting. So, you know, I've got my NuForm shirt on, which is our. Our mobile app. So if you go to newform.org you can check it out. But basically, New form is the app that we built to get Phoenix volunteers to connected to Phoenix members all across the country. And we started to realize that any nonprofit in the mental health and addiction space could use that infrastructure to reach their constituents. And the Phoenix community could find their services too. And in reverse, their folks could find Phoenix. And because when you're in recovery, like what you need at two days sober and 10 years sober are different, what you need if you have co occurring mental health and addiction is different than if you're just struggling with substance use. So to have all these services in one app, it really creates a marketplace of healing. And because the majority of those organizations have free programs, it's an incredible free resource.
- [26:29]
A
That's fantastic. And the app, again, is new form,
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B
a new form of digital community. And it's a place where we're here to lift each other up, not pull each other down. The same ethos applies.
- [26:40]
A
Did your parents get to see you create all this and enter this phase of your recovery in life?
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B
My mom did. She and I grew really close over the years and had a lot of healing together, kind of working through some of that childhood stuff. And my father, unfortunately, you know, spent the bulk of his adult life experiencing homelessness up in Montana. I tried to help him as I got into sobriety, but his. His mental health declined over the years. But fortunately, I got to speak with him before he passed and, and just tell him how much I love him and, you know, have that last conversation with him. Because what I learned later in reflecting on my relationship with him, he actually taught me about the outdoors, hunting, you know, in rural Pennsylvania and the beauty of nature. Sitting there watching the sunrise over the duck blind and looking over the water and some of the foundation of what became Phoenix came from the beauty that he wove into my life. And I can see that now, even past the tough times.
- [27:55]
A
That's beautiful and sad, and it's nice to do it somewhat in his memory, it sounds like.
- [28:01]
B
Yeah, yeah. I think about that all the time now because I have a different perspective. But when I see someone coming to Phoenix, I don't see them as their circumstance. I see them as all the possibility that's in them. And I think if we started to look at these really difficult challenges in our society through that lens, on top of the idea that we can lift each other up, not pull each other down, I think it could help us even in this sort of cultural moment we're in as a country right now.
- [28:39]
A
And sounds like that's sort of the advice you would give if someone came who was feeling stuck or hopeless to just engage and have that hope.
- [28:47]
B
Yeah, engage, have that hope. But also, as soon as they show up at Phoenix, they have a gift they can share with somebody else. They can hold the door open that they just walk through for the person that's behind them. Like, they already have a way that they can give back by supporting others that come behind them. And by giving back to others, you actually lift yourself, too.
- [29:10]
A
And that's the thrive part of Rise, Recover, thrive. Right. And I both like the word thrive, it turns out.
- [29:17]
B
Yeah, I think thriving and flourishing and hope and connectedness, it's. All these things are the real solution to these issues. And it's great that you lift stuff like that up. And Phoenix certainly tries to do. And. And, you know, I tried to create a little bit of a playbook in Rise, Recover, thrive for people to think about how they could do this in their own life.
- [29:42]
A
And just a little more color on what life looks like for you these days. You're now a father and tell me what recovery looks like almost 30, 30 years later.
- [29:50]
B
Yeah, it's. You know, it's. It's incredible that now I have kids and I get to give them a very different childhood than what I had. And just a quick example of that, when my son was, you know, maybe three or so, he. He was pondering something, and I said, what are you thinking about? And he said, dad, what's anger? And I started to tear up because I started to realize that what his understanding of anger and my understanding of anger at that age was so different because of my sobriety, he had to ask me that question rather than having it modeled, you know, and so that's one of the gifts of recovery. It doesn't mean I'm parenting is easy and I'm great at it. Slight just means that I have a different awareness. And the Phoenix, you know, has goals to expand into the UK and Canada. This year we have a documentary coming out called Sober. So if folks go to soberfilm.com they can see the trailer and host screenings. The book is out, and, you know, we're just trying to reach as many people as we can. Our next goal is to serve 10 million people in the next five years impacted by substance use.
- [31:11]
A
And the film is. Is about the Phoenix.
- [31:14]
B
Yeah, it's about our launch in la. A documentarian came with us on that journey and it turned into this really beautiful piece about how we can lift each other up.
- [31:28]
A
That's wonderful. I have the book right here. Rise, Recover, Thrive. It's definitely a must read. And for anyone struggling in sobriety, interested in exercise, or interested in all these other resources that you guys have, definitely check out the Phoenix. It's an incredible resource and very grateful for you, Scott, for all the work that you're doing.
- [31:47]
B
Thanks for having me on. Yeah, jump over to the phoenix.org anybody that wants to volunteer and help us grow this movement even bigger.
- [31:56]
A
Well, thanks, Scott. I really appreciate you spending time with me today.
- [31:59]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [32:00]
A
Thanks for listening to the Thriving with Addiction podcast. If you found today's episode helpful, please follow and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and share it with someone who might benefit. You can also connect with me on Instagram, LinkedIn and YouTube or visit thrivingwithaddiction.com to learn more. Stay tuned for next week's episode. And remember, Thriving is possible.