← Thriving with Addiction with Dr. Jonathan Avery
Thriving with Addiction with Dr. Jonathan Avery
Women, Alcohol, and Recovery with New York Times Bestselling Author Holly Whitaker
00:39:31
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the Thriving With Addiction podcast where we explore how recovery is not just about surviving, but about truly living. Each week we'll dive into the science stories and strategies that help people and families heal from addiction and build healthier, more resilient lives. I'm your host, Dr. John Avery. Let's get started. Very lucky to have with us today Holly Whitaker. She's a New York Times bestselling author of Quit Like a Woman and creator of the audio guide 30 Days to a New Relationship with Alcohol and founder of Tempest, which has since been acquired by monument in 2022. A writer, researcher, and person in long term recovery, she believes individual healing is the foundation for collective liberation and that equity, social justice, and love ethic are inseparable from addiction recovery. Holly's currently writing her third book. She writes the substack Recovering and you can follow her on Instagram as well. Welcome, Hollywood.
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B
Hi, John. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation with you.
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A
It's great to have you here. I think in the last five years. Your book is one of the two books I most recommend. It's a must read. Quit Like a Woman and then the other book I always recommend is Beyond Addiction by your pal Kerry Wilkins and Jeff Wood.
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B
Well, they go really well together, too.
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A
They do. And you wrote the intro to the last edition of that.
- [01:23]
B
I did, I did, yeah. Yeah. I was really fortunate to do that. It's an amazing book.
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A
I'm recommending Holly Whitaker all the time.
- [01:30]
B
Good. That's really nice. Well, I mean, I just, I think you might have read this in my newsletter, but I just, I didn't read it for like five years. I didn't read it after it came out. I mean, it's not like I didn't read parts of it or refer to it, but I didn't sit down and actually consume it. And I just recently did that a couple months ago and I'm like, this is a good book. And it has so, like, surprisingly, because so much has changed, it really has surprisingly held up. I thought it would be very out of date because so much has happened in this space.
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A
Some pandemics. People come in or I see them in the hospital and I say, I know exactly what you need and it's that book. So tell me a little bit about your story that led to that book and sort of how you entered recovery is aligned with the advice you give people in that book, too. So tell me your story.
- [02:21]
B
It's been a really long time since I've done This. So this will be interesting. I haven't. I don't think I've given a podcast interview on a. Like, on my story in a while. So my story is that I drank. I had a relationship with alcohol that started in high school, blossomed through college, followed me into my career. I lived in San Francisco. I worked in startups. I was an accountant that worked in, you know, big four accounting firm. And drinking was just, like, part of my life. And I never had a comfortable relationship with it, but I had a nebulous relationship with it. And I was aware of my relationship with it, and probably more aware than most people are. Right. I think when you have. That is something that's really specific, you know, like, when you have a thing, it's a thing, you know, and not everyone has a thing. And for me, it really came to a head. I mean, there were periods of time, like I write in my book, where it was not important and periods of time where it felt. Felt very important. And for me, it came to a head when I went through a really serious breakup in 20. Oh, my God, now 2010, 2011. And it was 2011 or early 2011, and it just destroyed me. And I kind of gave up and just threw myself into my career in drinking. And I had a really good job at the time. I really like what I felt was an important job, and it was my whole world, my whole identity. And the alcohol just kind of became how I did all of that. And for me, the wheels just started coming off big time in mid-2012, like 2011, I don't remember at all. And, like, 2012 was pretty rough. And then I had this experience in late 2012, because no one wants to be an alcoholic, you know, Like, I just. I. You know, it. I think that there. I. At Tempest, we came up with a recovery map. And, you know, we talk about these stages of, like, there's a period of time where you just don't know it's bad. You know, like, something's happening, but you're not aware of it. Then you start coming into awareness of it, like, maybe this isn't right. And then you're like, oh, this is a thing. And I think I really started to come into that awareness. And, like, I was on a vacation, and I told the friend I was with, like, if I don't stop drinking after I come back from this, I need you guys to do an intervention. And she thought I was kidding, but I wasn't. I needed help, and I didn't know how to do it. And it for me, my ticket in was I worked in healthcare. I was babysitting a doctor's kids. We happened to like walk home from work together. And some a mutual had been fired from our organization. And that mutual I had run into like a mutual like an engineer had been fired. I'd run into this engineer. The engineer had said make sure and say hi to Andrew diamond and thank him for me. And I was with Andrew and I just said, oh, this person wanted me to say thank you. And he said, oh, I think this person is a little borderline. And I just was like borderline with sad. And as soon as he said borderline, I just kind of knew that I. That was a clue. A key borderline personality disorder. And so I, as soon as he left, I started researching it and then I diagnosed for some online quiz for borderline personality disorder. I mean just like hint, most people with BPD don't like have an inkling that they have bpd. I think it's like a very, very. So I. But for me I was just like, I have borderline personality disorder. And one of the things that it said was immediate stop drinking. You know, drinking is one of the things, the worst things that you can do. And it was that, that was just like a gift because it was like, I'm not going to quit drinking because I have an alcohol problem. I'm going to quit drinking because I have a mental illness. And I wrote, you know, I write and quit like a woman. Why is it that I was more relieved to have a, like a mental illness, like a pretty severe, you know, well, behavioral disorder. But like I was so relieved to have that rather than have a problem with alcohol, you know. But it was that permission of like, you need to quit drinking if you have this. And then that just kind of set me on this path to quit drinking. And you know, long story short, I read Alan Carr's book, which was incredible. I still recommend it, the Easy Way to Control Alcohol. And it just changed things for me. I just all of a sudden went from, I could never stop drinking. How could one stop drinking? I'll die if I try and stop drinking too. Oh my God. I don't think I ever want to drink again. This is such a terrible drug. What a waste of my life and my time. And that wasn't the end of the story. I had to do a lot of work. But that was kind of the pivot for me.
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A
Right. And I actually sort of missed or glossed over you talking about self diagnosing with borderline personality Disorder. But to people, I give that book that really resonates with folks because they've either thought they had personality disorder or had been misdiagnosed with mental health issues, including personalities. You know, a lot of men come in and say, look, everyone says I'm a narcissist, but you know, it turns out they have a drinking problem. Or women say bpd, but you know, it turns out they struggle with substance.
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B
That's really interesting about the narcissism because BPD is so gender coded and so is narcissism. So it's interesting.
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A
Yeah, but that really resonates with folks. And later, multiple therapists told you you didn't have that diagnosis, but it was a real catalyst to understanding that you were self medic, something that you needed to figure out.
- [08:04]
B
And I acted like it. I mean, let's be honest, I was like, very, very rigid. I had like, I snapped. I elevated people, I tossed them down. I had a lot of the marks, you know, of it, but I was not. And it was just alcohol. Like it was trauma. A lot of unhealed relational trauma, CPTSD and you know, a drinking problem.
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A
So if we understand the why of the drinking. You mentioned a lot of sort of factors that were going on in your life, but trauma is what it goes back to, ultimately.
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B
Well, I mean, I would say something different now. I think, like, if we're talking about what I understood up until the writing of that book, you know, I would have said it was absolutely my trauma, it was absolutely my attachment. It was that I was at a really young age, left to my own devices, my own coping mechanisms. You know, I. I really love the bioso. Bio Social. Oh my God, it's been so long. Biopsychosocial motto. Because it is. It really made sense to me. It's everything, you know, it's how you form attachments and relationships. It's coping mechanisms, it's trauma. It's, you know, like blood sugar. It's so many different things that contribute, you know. And so for me, I really identified with. Oh, I had, you know, my father was gay, my parents divorced. I was really left to my own devices. I had a disabled mom from a really young age that required a lot of, you know, like, there's just stuff. But. Yeah, yeah.
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A
All right. And then sort of the ways you made your way out of drinking. One was Alan Carr's book. And I have to say I've recommended a lot for smoking. I've seen people quit smoking from it and cannabis from it. I think you're the only person still I know to the date that has benefited from it for drinking. Can you maybe explain?
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B
Annie Grace has. Annie Grace has for sure, because there's at least two.
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A
But tell me, tell me why that resonated with you.
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B
Oh, my God. I don't know, really. That's so surprising to me. And maybe that's just because books came along after that were more focused on alcohol, like Annie's and like Jason Bales and, you know, there was a lot of books that kind of came in, but I think that it was timing. I mean, it was. I was ready. It was right time. And I think, like, at the end of Mark Lewis's book, you know, Biology of Desire, he talks about, like, motivation, like, the desire meets the structure that supports it. And my desire kind of met the structure that supported. I was ready to make a change. And the book was just. Oh, God, what I think it was. I was drinking. I was drinking still. I was reading the book and I'm having this dawning awareness of, like, how dumb it is, Right? Like, we, what, every night we go out and we spend all of our money to drink poison, lose our memories and do stuff stupid. Like, it just. It was the ugly part of my drinking, you know what I mean? I was in my 30s. Like, I had kind of crossed some boundary and. And I was still going to bars, and it just was. I think he really did a good job of making it sound so stupid. And that got me be. Because I didn't want to do it. I felt. I felt the departure from it. I felt the distance growing between that person that I had been and the person I was going to become. It was very obvious to me that that was the portal.
- [11:22]
A
It was sort of the push over the finish line. Like, when people do it for smoking, it's sort of obvious to them. More obvious sometimes that it's your medicating withdrawal state and you're not getting anything from it and you're wasting your time and your money. But sometimes it's hard to make that same conclusion around drinking. You view it as a best friend and a facilitator. And I think your book does a good job of all the external factors that make us think it has these incredible properties and even big alcohol in its. I mean, there's a lot that tells us it's really special.
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B
There is a lot. There is a lot of evidence that tells us it's necessary and special and that you're going to suffer without it. Yeah.
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A
And so the ingredients for your recovery were Allen Carr.
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B
Allen Carr. Yeah. And then I. And then immediately, like, that threw me. I was in. You know what I mean? Like, I was. As soon as I made that decision, I was like, I'm gonna change my life. And I didn't have. You know, I drank again after that original, like, quit and. But I started to. I think I started to just become spiritual. Like, I really developed this sense, you know, I was very numb and dissociated before and really closed off. And when we. When we come back to ourselves in this way, we start tuning into other people and our surroundings. And I think for me, it was just this waking up to what was around me and potential and possibilities. So I got really invested in, like, developing my spiritual awareness. I used a. Like, I love affirmations in my work. I still use it constantly with. If I'm working with clients or if I'm just giving anyone advice. Visioning, like, imagining a different future and repeating, like, mantras and affirmations of things I wasn't yet were really big for me because it's so dark in the beginning. And a lot of times, you know, we lose our ability to, like, see the future. We're just so stuck in the present moment, in addiction. And so for me, it was just like, those were really big things for me was imagining a future and. And. And claiming it and saying, you know, like, I used. I repeated the same mantra that I would never again. But it worked really well. The time. I am calm, clean, balanced and strong, and I'm on a path to living my life beyond my wildest dreams. And it was important to me because I felt so deeply imbalanced, so dirty. So. And just to like, be very clear, I don't define dirty or clean anymore, but this was a long time ago when I was starting out. But these were words that just. I wasn't yet. But I was becoming a ton of research. I got super into meditation. I'd already been doing yoga for a really long time. So meditation and yoga were really big deal to me. I was. I made morning routines and structures so that every day I woke up, I was, like, setting myself up for the best day I could have. I was, you know, at night filling my nights with, like, very healthy things, like going to yoga classes or going out to tea with friends, like, whatever it was. And so it was really just like. I. You know, I say, like, one of the things that we teach. We taught in Tempest was like, throw the kitchen sink at it, you know, And I. That's what I did. I just was Like, I'm going to. Whatever it is that I need to do, I'm just going to do it. And all those things just over time formed a basis of a different way of being.
- [14:44]
A
And I think that's why your book really resonates, is that it shows that there are multiple things that you need to address and think about and incorporate into your recovery plan. There's no one size fits all. And it's sometimes been billed as sort of a non 12 step approach in some ways. And I know you've gotten in. That's one of the things that didn't work for you. And a little bit of controversy that follows you around.
- [15:06]
B
An annoying controversy, because, I mean, I love Bill Wilson and I think you can't not know about the history of Bill Wilson and not absolutely be a fan. He would be sitting in our chairs today doing the work that you and I are doing. And I think troll step groups are amazing. It's a free support group. It is something that we know works for so many people, but. But it is not the only thing. I mean, like, my issues with it are that you like, we are steeped in AA fundamentalism. We're steeped in this recovery fundamentalism across the board, whether or not you go to the program. And also that it was created for a specific audience. It hasn't been updated to address that. So it just kind of depends on a group to address those things or. So there's just, there's issues that I have with it. But my book was. Yeah, it is a controversy that follows me around because it is a beloved program. There's a lot of AA bachelors out there and I, I did not want to build my career on putting something else down that actually works. And so, yeah, it's.
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A
It's unfortunate, but it's important to highlight that it's, it's not for everyone. And people need a menu of options. And, you know, it might be meds, it might be therapy, it might be all the different tools that you recommend. What do you recommend now when someone's coming to you for help or what are the key takeaways from your book as. As people come to you?
- [16:35]
B
Well, I mean, I just today actually had a conversation with someone that was just looking for some thoughts about getting started. And so I'll tell you what I told them. You know, I said, get a book, any book. Read the book. I recommended my book. I recommended We Are the Luckiest. I recommended Catherine Gray's book and I recommended Annie Grace's book. I was just like, any of them, they're really pro sobriety. Like, they're very, you know, and like, they also, like, dabble in the science and whatever, but they also are going to turn you off of alcohol. I said one of the first things that I think is really important is working with our ideas about alcohol, not glamorizing it, like, not setting it up, and really reframes, I think are really important. And so reframing this is like freedom versus punishment. The second thing I said was get a visioning practice. I think this is one of the most important things that people do at the beginning, again, because we lose our ability to see a future. We lose our ability to, like, believe we even deserve a future. We can't see a future different than the one we have. So I really believe in this concept of, like, creating. Um, we used to talk about this in Tempest. There's, you know, and sports coaches have, like, athletes run a race ahead of time in their head. And that's what I think is one of the most important things that we can do when we're approaching a recovery is run the race ahead of time in our heads and see us living differently. I recommend nervous system, you know, supports. And so whatever that is, it's just like, cozy, comfy, like, taking care of yourself, like, doing whatever it is. Because your body is going to be going through a process, and it is going to need a ton of support. So it's really simple stuff. Sleep, hydration, and then what were some of the other things? I mean, support. Like, we need people. No one recovers alone. And so however you can get that, it could be a therapist, one person. It doesn't have to be, you know, a team. It could be a partner, a friend. Like, there's so many different ways that you can get support, but you can't do it alone. And I think that's. I mean, like, it's basically what I. What I tell everyone is just anything, you know, like, any direction you take, there are some ways to really build a foundation. You want to start getting some structures in place. You want to start really prioritizing, taking care of yourself. And I think one of the biggest things is just, you just don't have to do this one thing, but you can do anything else, you know, like. Like, literally you can do anything else, you know, just like that. As long as it's not going to be worse or take you down and you're careful. Just like, you have a whole menu here. Just don't do this one thing. And you can, like, so those are, you know, that was just from today. But yeah, I mean, I, I, there's some really basic things that people can do at the very beginning just to, like, improve their chances and make it easier for them, including what we don't talk about enough, which is medication. There's medications, not Ozempic, but there's medications that exist now that help people with changing their relationship with alcohol.
- [19:49]
A
Right. Naltrexone, disulfiram, topiramate on down the line. There's plenty of meds that are often not prescribed. So, yeah, there's plenty of options. But your approach is so perfect because I think people, when they're, you know, trying to change, they're often met with people telling them they have to do it a certain way or trying to shame them or punish them into doing it. And to know there's plenty of options and ways to do it and supports of all different sorts is really key.
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B
Yeah, yeah. And there is, I mean, there's so many different ways to approach it, you know, and if you talk to anybody, they'll give you their story, and it's always different. You know, there's no story that's the same.
- [20:25]
A
And so what's been your story since the book? I know it's been that was a big change in your life and you started working and helping other people in this space. But your journey has taken some twists and turns along the ways. Maybe you can update us how it's been since then.
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B
Yes, well, I mean, I just. Right now, as you and I've discussed, I'm doing a series on my own newsletter that's just kind of exploring. I call it what happened after Quit like a Woman or After Quit Like a Woman to take account for, like, what happened right after and also what we've learned in general, like, in the last five years in addiction and recovery. And so for me, I think the way that I started off that series of talking about what happened, what happened happened before the book was even published, kind of. We talked about this a little bit, but I wrote an op ed piece for the New York Times called the Patriarchy of Alcoholics Anonymous. And I kind of went from feeling really loved in the recovery community to feeling the opposite. I mean, just hated, I think, for a lot of reasons. When I was very visible, I was a woman, I took up a lot of space. I had an unpopular opinion. It seemed like I was building my business off of, you know, talking aa. There was a lot of stuff that was kind of wrapped up that, like, set all of that aside, and you've got one person that is about. Let's see, this is 2019, you know, like, seven years sober, seven years in recovery, who's just written a book and had so much attention on her already, and then is just, you know, like, hit immediately with being told really terrible things about herself. And so for me, I have. I'm not that. I'm not. I hadn't transcended that. Right. It was a really, really, really difficult time when that book came out because of the backlash around it, because of who I am. And I've. You know, I've now been diagnosed adhd. And I know I have rejection sensitivity. I know I have things that kind of even made this worse. But it was a hard time because of that. And I just. It just never got easier. I don't like. That's kind of how I like it really just. It happened. I talk, you know, I'm writing a book right now kind of about this period, and I've been trying to write, like, the origin scene. And it's like, it's the two days before my book comes out, and I'm standing in the Fresno air terminal, it's after Christmas with my family, and I am not managing my social media account at the time. The people that work for me do, and I. They call me and say it's too hard for them to read comments that are directed at me, and they've been doing it for a few hours. And I'm like, I've been doing this for years. Like, so, like, fine, I'll take it over. And I took my feedback over, and I opened up my Instagram, and it was just. I read all the messages people had to say to me, and it was just, you know, it was horrible. And I think that from there, that just shaded everything. You know, it really did. And we're talking about 2020, and. And, you know, my book came out, I went on tour. I was running a company at the time that was. The job was too big for me. It was way, like, everything I was in, I was in. You know, I was really treading water at the time. And I kind of, you know, I went through my book tour. Like, I made it through the first half, and then Covid hit, and then I had to, like, shut down my headquarters that we just moved into and move to a house in the woods and run my company from there. And then after that, we had George Floyd's murder uprising in America. And that as I was running a company in a recovery organization, and we were Very in tune with racial justice. That was not nothing. That was a huge, huge thing that was, I think, just as heavy as Covid. And then I just was exhausted. And in October that year, I handed the reins over my. I hired somebody to replace me. And like, long. Long story short, just like that didn't turn out well. I ended up leaving my own company. The company was ran for a while without me, but in a way that made it seem that I was still there. The person that replaced me made really bad decisions. It was. It became something I was, you know, I wouldn't recommend to people, and I was still the face of it. And so if you can just imagine what that was like. And you know, in this whole time also, like during all this, my book went from being, you know, it started out popular, but then it got really popular because Chrissy Teigen, you know, wrote about it and then who else? Oh, and then Miranda from Sex and the City used it to quit drinking. And so it just became this cultural phenomenon. Yeah, I was diagnosed with adhd, which you would think would make things easier, but actually made things harder because it was another thing. During all of this, unbeknownst to me, I've been going through perimenopause. Like, I had thought that I was in a stress response, but no, I'm in a total hormonal fluctuation. And then I reincorporate pot, which was just a very traumatic experience altogether. And so I think, you know, kind of like standing back from this, like, what happened to me over the past, you know, like since I published this book, which, you know, is an amazing book, are things that I didn't account for in the book that I experienced after the book. You know, this ADHD alone is. There's some studies that show that there are populations in recovery settings of up to 40% that have undiagnosed and untreated ADHD. And we know there's high correlation with ADHD and autism and dyslexia and ADHD that like this, you know, this alone was just like such a key for me. And I think like the. I'm going to stop it here, so you can kind of interject. But basically, like, what I'm trying to explain is that I had a lot of things happen in a really short period of time that any one of them would have probably reshaped how my recovery went. But they all happened. And because they all happened, they really threw me into like, I would say this is one of the worst periods of my life, but the most transformational And I am kind of through what I would call like now, like almost like a second. I'm into like what I feel like is a second part of my recovery that is very different than the first part that is even more, I think, more balanced and grounded and healthier because of all these things I just talked about and how they rearranged and made my recovery much more difficult. But now on this end, just different and better.
- [27:45]
A
No, I appreciate you sharing all that and so many important points for people listening. One is how frequently ADHD is underdiagnosed, misdiagnosed, especially in women. The role hormones play in recovery. I think men sort of have permission to pay more attention to their testosterone and replace things and sort of aggressively pursue it. But for women, they're still under addressed in dramatic ways.
- [28:09]
B
4% of women are on hormones.
- [28:11]
A
Exactly. Due to some false press around some of the risks around it. And then the last point, which is there's many more points, but one that's really critical is that recovery doesn't necessarily mean abstinence. Like, you could incorporate cannabis into your life. Again, cannabis was one of the things you quit initially and you talk about that in your book. You discovered there's a way to be a person in long term recovery, which is in your bio, and still figure out how to incorporate cannabis. Talk a little bit about that. I'm sure that'll bring some more Instagram messages your way.
- [28:47]
B
Well, I mean, I think I really important point too is to start out with one of the more important, I think, like, facts I've learned in doing this work that I hadn't really considered and I don't know why, but I think it's like only 48% of people consider themselves in recovery after overcoming an addiction and 52% don't. And so, meaning that there is like half the population out there of people that have struggled with an addiction don't identify as being in recovery. Right. Being in recovery is its own thing and it is, it is possible to remain either abstinent or in a healthy relationship with a substance and even not be in recovery. And so I think that these are things that are unpopular things to say, but they are true things. They are things that exist. And yes, like there is a way for people to be in recovery and to identify as being in recovery and still use drugs. And in fact, many people that probably say that they are in recovery and don't use drugs are using some kind of psychoactive substance somewhere. Right. And so I think that they're, you know, these Words and these terms, they are so helpful and they can also be so confusing and harmful. And so for me, I, like, I, I don't even like it's one of those things. Like, I do identify as being in recovery. I hold it so much loose. It is not like I'm hauling. I'm in long term recovery. Don't you like, it was such a thing. And part of my healing has been not having to have it be such a. Does that make sense? Like, not having it be so all or nothing big my whole life? Because when it is your whole life and it goes wrong, right? Like, it's a. It's a big T. It's a big ask for something that's right.
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A
No, if it's all or nothing, it's very hard to keep it up. And you know, the stigma that exists for addiction, we often think that it's on the outside for people that have never experienced it. But when you're in recovery, there's a lot of stigma, even in our community around what's right, what's not, what recovery and abstinence should look like. And so if you feel the stigma's coming from the outside and then you feel the stigma is coming from the people that should be on your stall
- [31:11]
B
is coming from inside the house. Yeah, no, I mean, it's both, right? It's really. We, we do. We uphold it, right? Like, we really do. I think a lot of people in recovery uphold some harmful tropes and even like, you know, throw them at each other and, and also. But it's also maintained by the world at large. It's. It's both, right?
- [31:31]
A
That's right. And so has. Has this experience changed what you recommend to others now or, or is there a role for holding it tight at one point, being more loose about it later or some relation to substances or. I mean, how do you. How do you.
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B
I don't know. I mean, like, it's interesting, right? This is what I, I asked. You know, I, I did a podcast. Did you listen to the podcast I did with Kerry Wilkins?
- [31:51]
A
I did, yeah.
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B
Did you notice how she wouldn't ever give me any concrete answers about anything?
- [31:58]
A
Like a good therapist? Yeah. Ever.
- [32:01]
B
You know, and I think that so, so sure, of course it has. But no, it hasn't. You know, I mean, how about that? Like, I think that I wrote the book to account for what happened to me. I wrote the book to account for using drugs again or changing our minds. And. But the issue was you can. It's one thing to say it to someone else. It's another thing to actually live it for yourself and for me, the living of that experience that I. That's fine for everyone else. It turned out not to be fine for me. So I think that the, you know. How do I say this? What I. What I. My. I haven't. Like, my mind, of course, has changed about a lot of things, and I'm working on a book to kind of clarify whatever it's changed on, but at the end of the day, it hasn't. What I believe I have gotten from my experience these last few years is an expansion. I know so much more now about myself. I have, you know, like, the last few years, I did parts work for the first time. I had done shadow work. I'd never done parts work. I worked with a somatic experiencing therapist. So I did a lot of somatic work. I had never understood what CPTSD was. I did not understand relational trauma or that I had it and how that impacts somebody. I didn't understand, you know, what, like, how much my ADHD was, like, actually causing so much pain and disorganization in my life. And so, like, all of these things were just more information. And I think that what probably primarily has changed for me the most is, well, what's addiction and what's stimming, right? Or what's addiction and what's. What's addiction versus what's just like, what is addiction is really? That's the question that I keep coming back to, if that makes any sense. It's less of, like, what is recovery? And it's more of what is addiction. Does that make sense?
- [34:11]
A
It does. No. And I think viewing it in this way, it's not that we have to overcome addiction or like, you suddenly enter recovery and it's game over, but it's sort of an active, ongoing process to understand yourself, to define your relationship to substances. And you're giving yourself, but also everyone who listens to you sort of permission to examine those things in an ongoing way and not have to feel stuck in any label or even how they felt a month ago, which I agree.
- [34:40]
B
And also, I don't have answers. And I think that's another thing. We don't give ourselves space in these, in recovery or in. I don't even know how to define it. But we don't give ourselves space in these. In these ways to not know or to be curious or to change our mind or to think. And I think that, yeah, I do. I do hope I'm giving people permission to think more. But I also want to give people space. Because what I felt the most in this process was, I have to know now. I need to decide. I need to be right or wrong. I need to be sober or not sober. I need, you know, like, I need to define this thing. And I think that it. I, like, for years, I wrote this. I had this, like, same Instagram post I would always post of, like, you know, like, the steps are, I don't know how I have a drinking problem. I think I have a drinking problem. I know I have a drinking problem. I need to fix the drinking problem. And I was like, but there's a fourth step in there, which is, oh, I have a drinking problem. Pause. You know, it does not mean I have a drinking problem. Rehab tomorrow. There is a lot of stuff that happens between awareness and doing something about it. And that is the process. And not only that, like what you said, I think this has been a significant shift for me, which is like, it's just an ongoing process. Like, how do you come up with what the markers are in this pro. It is one whole long thing. And so to say, you know, like, a relapse is to like or, like, to take something and to essentially break it down into just its component parts. I relapsed. You're kind of like erasing the entire picture of what it is and how it fits into the entire picture. What came before and what comes after.
- [36:29]
A
But I think that's why interventions and even rehab doesn't work sometimes, is that you close the space that allow that the patient, that the person who was struggling had to sort of explore what was going on because they suddenly have no choice but to. Or they feel like they have no choice but to quit. And there's some exploration that can be lost in that. So I think it's good advice for people that are struggling, but good advice for their people's families, too, to allow some space even after someone recognizes it's a problem, to try to work it, figure it out in their own way.
- [36:58]
B
Yeah.
- [37:00]
A
Well, this is great. Where can we continue to follow your journey so that we can see what's next and check in?
- [37:07]
B
There's one thing I do want to answer before we go. I. Of the things you asked me, and this is a question I have, I do believe that when we are at different stages of development and different part. Like, I don't think what I'm talking about, first of all, is cannabis. I'm loose around cannabis. I would not be if I was talking about using opioids or certain Other substances. I think that's really important to state. And I. This is a question I ask Carrie and one that I hold for myself because I needed certain forcing functions. There are people that will tell you that, like having. Being. I can't think of the word right now. Involuntary, committed to. To like rehab. There are some people that will say that saved my life. And I do. There's a lot of nuance in here about what works for somebody and what works. What doesn't work for others. And so I want to be really careful with that aspect of it because some people need tight at the beginning. They do need to show them the rules. I think that it's, you know. Yeah, I want to hold that and make sure that I. I assert that in this. Because that without that it could, you know, it's not as. I don't feel as right having this conversation without saying that.
- [38:23]
A
How about that? Yeah. And there are some real emergencies that need interventions and opiates. And opiate misuse being one of them, for sure.
- [38:31]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, John. You can find my work on my newsletter. It's newsletter HollyWhitaker. Oh, wait, hold on. Let me redo this. You can find my work at Substack under my newsletter, Recovering. That's pretty much it right now. I think everything is through there.
- [38:49]
A
And get. If you haven't yet, quit like a woman. And Holly, you're great. Your voice is so important in this space, and I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me today.
- [38:58]
B
John, thank you so much. I really appreciate you and the work you do and this conversation. That was. Yeah, really, really nice. Thank you.
- [39:06]
A
Thanks for listening to the Thriving With Addiction podcast. If you found today's episode helpful, please follow and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and share it with someone who might benefit. You can also connect with me on Instagram, LinkedIn and YouTube or visit thrivingwithaddiction.com to learn more. Stay tuned for next week's episode. And. And remember, thriving is possible.