Thriving with Addiction with Dr. Jonathan Avery

Episode: Women, Alcohol, and Recovery with NYT Bestselling Author Holly Whitaker
Date: January 6, 2026
Guest: Holly Whitaker, Author of Quit Like a Woman, Creator of Tempest and the Substack "Recovering"

Brief Overview

In this episode, Dr. Jonathan Avery sits down with Holly Whitaker—writer, recovery advocate, and bestselling author—to explore women’s relationship with alcohol, the realities of addiction and recovery, and the evolution of Holly's own journey. The conversation dives deep into Holly’s personal story, the unique challenges faced by women, the limitations and legacies of 12-step programs, and the ever-evolving, multifaceted nature of healing from substance use.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Holly Whitaker’s Story: Origins, Crisis, and Early Recovery

• Long-term relationship with alcohol: Holly discusses her evolving but never-comfortable relationship with alcohol, beginning in high school and extending through her professional life.

  "I never had a comfortable relationship with it, but I had a nebulous relationship with it. I was aware of my relationship with it, and probably more aware than most people are." (03:00)

• The turning point: After a major breakup in 2011, Holly’s drinking escalated, compounded by career pressures. By the end of 2012, she hit a personal bottom.

  "The wheels just started coming off big time in mid-2012." (05:30)

• Mental health as a catalyst: A self-diagnosis with borderline personality disorder (BPD)—which was later not confirmed—paradoxically provided Holly “permission” to address her drinking via a mental health lens, rather than an “alcoholic” identity.

  "I was more relieved to have a mental illness... I was so relieved to have that rather than have a problem with alcohol." (06:38)

[07:18] On Misdiagnosis and Self-Medication

• Discussion on how mislabeling (e.g., BPD, Narcissism) often masks underlying substance issues, especially along gender lines.

2. The ‘Why’ of Drinking: Trauma and the Biopsychosocial Perspective

• Drinking as a coping mechanism: While trauma was a central explanation earlier in her recovery, Holly now recognizes a more nuanced, biopsychosocial view encompassing:
  • Family dynamics (e.g., parental divorce, disabled mother)
  • Attachment patterns and coping mechanisms
  • Biological, psychological, and social factors

  "I really love the biopsychosocial model. Because it is... everything, you know; it's how you form attachments, it's coping mechanisms, it's trauma, it's... blood sugar. It's so many things." (08:35)

3. Pathways to Recovery: Toolbox, Not Template

[09:35] Early Tools and Revelations

• Alan Carr’s book, the ‘Easy Way’: Provided a game-changing cognitive shift, reframing alcohol as "pointless poison."

  "I was ready to make a change. The book was just... he really did a good job of making it sound so stupid." (10:20)

• Multi-dimensional healing: Beyond literature, Holly prioritized:

  • Spiritual practices and affirmations
  • Visioning a positive, substance-free life
  • Building new routines (meditation, yoga, “healthy evenings”)
  • “Throw the kitchen sink at it” mentality (try everything healthy and see what sticks)

  "For me, imagining a different future and repeating mantras... it was just like, those were really big things for me." (12:32)
  "You want to start really prioritizing, taking care of yourself." (16:47)

[14:43] Controversy Around AA & Non-12-Step Approaches

• AA as one option, not a panacea: Holly expresses admiration for Bill Wilson and acknowledges 12-step groups' efficacy, but questions “AA fundamentalism” and the need for a broader menu of supports, especially for women.

  "We are steeped in recovery fundamentalism across the board... it was created for a specific audience. It hasn't been updated." (15:05)

4. Holly’s Recovery Menu: Recommendations for Starters

[16:34] Key Advice for Those Starting Out

• Read diverse, pro-sobriety books
• Reframe alcohol (“freedom vs. punishment”), refuse to glamorize it
• Visioning practices (“run the race ahead of time in your head”)
• Support nervous system health (cozy routines, sleep, hydration)
• Seek support—no one recovers alone
• Consider all options, including medications for alcohol use disorder

  "Any direction you take, there are ways to really build a foundation." (17:31)
  "There are medications, not Ozempic, but ones that exist now that help people with changing their relationship with alcohol." (19:13)

5. Post-“Quit Like A Woman”: Backlash, Visibility, and Personal Evolution

[20:41] Navigating Backlash and Public Scrutiny

• Acclaim and resentment: Publishing her NYT op-ed “The Patriarchy of Alcoholics Anonymous” and her book led to both community embrace and intense backlash.

  "I went from feeling really loved in the recovery community to feeling the opposite... just hated, I think, for a lot of reasons." (21:25)

• Compounding stressors: Running Tempest, the pressures of visibility, the COVID-19 pandemic, social justice movements, ADHD diagnosis, and perimenopause—all converged, transforming Holly's life and her sense of recovery.

• Diagnosis as revelation: Untreated ADHD, especially among women in recovery, is often overlooked—and its impacts profound.

  "There's some studies that show that there are populations in recovery settings of up to 40% that have undiagnosed and untreated ADHD." (26:10)

• Recovery as transformation: Holly sees her recent trials as catalyzing “part two” of her recovery—more grounded, more nuanced, and more self-aware.

6. Recovery, Abstinence, and the Definition of Success: Flexibility & Nuance

[28:10] Recovery ≠ Abstinence

• Redefining recovery: Many (around 52%) who overcome addiction don’t even identify as “in recovery.” There’s room for multiple identities and approaches—including, controversially, responsible use of cannabis within recovery for some.

  "There is a way for people to be in recovery and... still use drugs. In fact, many people... are using some kind of psychoactive substance somewhere." (29:21)

• Stigma within and without: The “all-or-nothing” ethos and internal policing within the recovery world can be as damaging as public stigma.

  "When you're in recovery, there's a lot of stigma, even in our community around what's right, what's not, what recovery and abstinence should look like." (30:45)

7. Evolving Recommendations: Stages, Safety, and Space

• Different stages, different needs: Holly describes “holding it tight” (complete avoidance, rigid structure) may be critical early on, but greater looseness, exploration, and self-permission can be healthy as recovery matures—except in cases like opioid misuse, where urgency and external intervention may be necessary.

  "Some people need tight at the beginning... there are people that will tell you that being involuntarily committed to rehab saved my life." (37:06)

• Living with uncertainty: Holly advocates for “space”—space to not know, to explore, and to redefine recovery as an ongoing, dynamic process.

  "We don't give ourselves space to not know or to be curious or to change our mind... I do hope I'm giving people permission to think more. But I also want to give people space." (34:39)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I was more relieved to have a mental illness... than have a problem with alcohol.” (06:38, Holly)
• “We are steeped in AA fundamentalism... And also that it was created for a specific audience. It hasn't been updated to address that.” (15:05, Holly)
• “You just don't have to do this one thing, but you can do anything else... As long as it's not going to be worse or take you down and you're careful.” (17:12, Holly)
• “There is a way for people to be in recovery and... still use drugs. In fact, many people that probably say that they are in recovery and don't use drugs are using some kind of psychoactive substance somewhere.” (29:21, Holly)
• “If it's all or nothing, it's very hard to keep it up... the stigma is coming from inside the house.” (30:45/31:10, Dr. Avery, Holly)

Important Segments & Timestamps

• [02:20] Holly’s personal story with alcohol
• [06:38] Relief at a mental health diagnosis over an “alcohol problem”
• [08:35] Trauma, attachment, and biopsychosocial model
• [09:35] Alan Carr’s book and the “aha!” moment
• [15:05] 12-Step controversy: context, criticism, and coexistence
• [16:34] Holly’s go-to recovery recommendations
• [20:41] The impact of visibility and backlash post-book
• [26:10] ADHD’s overlooked importance in recovery for women
• [28:10] Redefining “recovery,” cannabis, abstinence
• [34:11] On the ongoing process of redefining addiction and recovery
• [37:06] Recognizing when strict intervention is necessary

Where to Find Holly Whitaker

• Newsletter: Recovering on Substack
• Instagram: @holly
• Book: Quit Like a Woman (strongly recommended by both Dr. Avery and Holly herself)

Tone and Language

The tone of the episode is candid, compassionate, and often reflective, with both Dr. Avery and Holly modeling humility and an openness to uncertainty. Holly invites listeners to question “fundamentalism” in recovery, to embrace experimentation and self-knowledge, and to reject shame-based approaches. There’s a consistent thread of honoring one’s own path, prioritizing harm reduction and nuance, and remaining vigilant about the evolving science and social currents shaping the recovery landscape.

Conclusion

This episode offers an honest, empowering exploration of recovery as an individualized, storied, and ever-changing process—especially for women. Listeners are left with practical advice, compassion for the messy middle, and permission to claim a recovery journey that fits their life and their truth.