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- [00:00]
Susan Rosaz
This message comes from Capital One. Your business faces unique challenges and opportunities. That's why Capital One offers a comprehensive suite of financial services backed by the strength of a top 10 commercial bank. Visit capitalone.com commercial member FDIC.
- [00:18]
Rand Abdelfattah
First, we have the music come in for the cold open.
- [00:35]
Ramtin Arablouei
Then sprinkle in some sound design to pique your interest, a little appetizer for your ears.
- [00:45]
Rand Abdelfattah
And then some news tape to give you a little more context on what's happening.
- [00:49]
Susan Rosaz
America's Viking 1 spacecraft landed on Mars early this morning and sent back two sharp pictures of the red planet.
- [00:56]
Ramtin Arablouei
Or maybe it's a voiceover.
- [00:58]
Willie T. Ramey
The robot lander touched down flawlessly this morning in a sandy desert area.
- [01:03]
Rand Abdelfattah
Let's add a little reverb to this one.
- [01:05]
Willie T. Ramey
The Viking spaceship has landed safely on Mars seven years to the day after man first set foot on the moon.
- [01:16]
Rand Abdelfattah
I'm Rand Abdelfattah.
- [01:17]
Ramtin Arablouei
I'm Ramtin Arablouei.
- [01:19]
Rand Abdelfattah
And you're listening to Throughline from npr. Today on the show behind the scenes of, well, this show.
- [01:31]
Ramtin Arablouei
Okay, so some of you listening have been with us since day one and some of you might have just heard about the show. But whether you're a die hard fan sleeping in a Throughline T shirt every night or maybe a new listener just trying to tune out the post election news, here on this show, the team is always trying to tell stories that are informative, insightful and entertaining.
- [01:53]
Rand Abdelfattah
So for the episode today, we're taking you behind the scenes of the show, telling you how it was born, some of what goes into making our episodes, and a little bit about how we make our special Through Line sauce, the Through Line Riz, as the kids say.
- [02:08]
Ramtin Arablouei
Or cringe, which is what my 9 year old would say. Anyways, we're going to give you a special behind the scenes look where you'll hear from us and from people on our team about the show and some of the episodes we made.
- [02:19]
Rand Abdelfattah
By the way, these behind the scenes conversations and more already exist for our Throughline plus subscribers. So if you're not supporting us yet, but you want more Throughline in your life, sign up now. You can find out more at plus.NPR.org.
- [02:36]
Ramtin Arablouei
Throughline Coming up, the origins of Throughline or Throughline's Throughline, one of those.
- [02:46]
Susan Rosaz
Hi, my name is Susan Rosaz.
- [02:48]
Lawrence Wu
You're listening to Throughline from npr.
- [02:51]
Susan Rosaz
This message comes from Capital One, offering commercial solutions you can bank on. Now more than ever, your business faces unique challenges and opportunities. That's why Capital One offers a comprehensive suite of financial services all tailored to your short and long term goals. Backed by the strength and stability of a top 10 commercial bank, their dedicated experts work with you to build lasting success. Explore the possibilities@capitalone.com Commercial A Member FDIC this message comes from Carvana. Carvana makes car selling easy. Enter your license plate or vin, answer some questions and Carvana will give you a real offer in seconds. Whether you're looking to sell your car right now or whenever feels right, go to Carvana.com to sell your car the convenient way. This message comes from NPR sponsor Saatva, who reminds you it's decision time in America. Time to decide if you want to continue sleeping on a worn out mattress or if you want a better night's sleep. Saatva crafts mattresses to lull you to sleep and to keep you sleeping soundly. And they cost a fraction of the price of retail. Visit saatva.com NPR to save $200 on orders of $1,000 or more.
- [04:12]
Devin Katayama
Part one through line so today we.
- [04:16]
Guy Raz
Thought it would be kind of fun to give you a behind the scenes look at how the show got started.
- [04:21]
Ramtin Arablouei
Yeah, it's our origin, the throughline origin story.
- [04:23]
Guy Raz
Yeah.
- [04:24]
Ramtin Arablouei
It all began. No, I'm just kidding. Okay.
- [04:26]
Guy Raz
Yeah, it's like once upon a time.
- [04:28]
Ramtin Arablouei
We gotta cue the music.
- [04:30]
Guy Raz
About six years ago.
- [04:30]
Ramtin Arablouei
Cue the music. So no. Okay, so it starts in I think it was October of 2015. I was brought to NPR by Guy Ross, who was the host of TED Radio Hour at the time.
- [04:42]
Susan Rosaz
It's the TED Radio Hour from npr.
- [04:44]
Ramtin Arablouei
I'm Guy Raz to work on a new show he was developing. And I had never worked in journalism or podcasting before. I had only worked on music for TED Radio Hour. And Guy, I think wanted to take a chance on me and brought me in to work on a pilot for a new show. And it was really kind of a top secret project. They sat me kind of in the corner of the sixth floor, I think, or the fifth floor where we were at the time at NPR headquarters. And I was just trying to figure out how to make a podcast. We had done interviews and we're just trying to figure it out. And I was kind of Cuban to myself. I wasn't talking to anyone, I think for the first three or four days. I went and looked at the names of the different people that were sitting around me. And I saw one name and the last name was Abdul Hatta. And I was like, that sounds like Afghan name or I don't, maybe Iranian name. That's kind of, you know, I was like, oh, I wonder who this person is? And a few days later, someone started sitting at that desk, and it was rund. And I was, like, super intimidated to talk to you. I was like, who is this?
- [05:47]
Lawrence Wu
You?
- [05:48]
Ramtin Arablouei
Like, you dressed. I don't know. I thought you kind of dressed. You were a mipster. You're a Muslim hipster.
- [05:52]
Guy Raz
This is so. It's so funny because, like, legit. Like, nobody in my life has ever, ever, ever, ever told me that my fashion or I was like, anything about it.
- [06:01]
Ramtin Arablouei
I thought you were, like, too cool for someone cool enough to. I was like, no. I was like, should I go up and say hi to her?
- [06:06]
Guy Raz
I'll take it.
- [06:06]
Ramtin Arablouei
I was like, no. She's probably gonna be like, who the hell are you? And I don't know how or who approached who first, but eventually we started talking to each other and, like, became friends. And honestly, I don't even remember how we became friends. Yeah, we were just suddenly friends.
- [06:24]
Guy Raz
It's like, yeah, I think we just started having lunch together and talking, like, for a little context. I had been at NPR for a few years. At that point. I'd been kind of jumping around, working on different pilots for podcasts and things like that. And eventually, by the time that Ramtin got there, I was sort of, like, antsy to also do something new. And, you know, once we got to talking, it was crazy fast how quickly we started talking about the idea for what would become through line. We were just sort of naturally talking about history a lot, talking about religion and politics and, you know, all the things that are supposedly off limits to talk about. Those were, like, our natural first topics of conversation. And I think partly it was because we both have these, you know, immigrant backgrounds and coming from the Middle east, there was just a lot of, like, shared history of, like, personal history for us. And we had the idea of doing something that was, like, creatively different, experimental, and sound that would also help, you know, explain the present through stories from the past. And we had no idea how you actually take an idea and make it an into, like, a reality. But we decided to bring the idea to my boss at the time, and we got our shot to make a pilot episode.
- [07:51]
Ramtin Arablouei
Yeah, I mean, we kind of got a shot. Like, all we got was like, okay, yeah, we're putting a little Rosie spot on. I know, I know. Basically, he was like, your boss Izzy's a nice guy. He was a nice guy. He still isn't really a nice guy. And he was kind of like, yeah, you can use the Studio, if you want. And let me know if you need a little couple bucks to rent a studio time or whatever. And we kind of went off and probably he didn't have any idea, like, what we were about to do, but we just started. Yeah, that's it. We started just making it. Honestly, on our left out is that by this time, the pilot I was working on became How I Built this.
- [08:30]
Lawrence Wu
From npr. It's How I Built this. A show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.
- [08:38]
Ramtin Arablouei
And Rund is now kind of like under the table, working on how I built this, like, producing for the show. Because.
- [08:45]
Guy Raz
Are we allowed to say this on the record?
- [08:46]
Ramtin Arablouei
Yeah, we're gonna say this. Cause this is so long ago now. Cause, you know, I was working on it, and Rund was like, she said, looking for something new or whatever. And I was like, yeah, let's work together on this thing. We're buddies, and we both started producing. We're basically the first two producers, and also Casey Herman, who's still there now. We're basically producing that show, like the first year and having a blast. I think working together, that was other thing that brought us together. Like, we were in the studio together. We were, like, doing all the things. And so we were also making what would become through line on the side. We were going and doing interviews at, like, places. We were acting like, I think, you know how they say fake it till you make it. We were definitely faking it, like, at that point.
- [09:26]
Guy Raz
Yeah, we were like, what is this even gonna sound like? I mean, just figuring out what are we gonna sound like. We were never host before, so it was like we were learning as we went everything. We definitely had some interviews that, you know, I wouldn't want to even go so well. Didn't go so well. But honestly, it was just sort of a process of like, all right, you just gotta, like, keep at it, listen, figure out what sounds good. Like, what is this gonna sound like? What is this gonna be? And then we eventually ended up with, like, the first pilot episode, which was actually not the first episode that is in the feed.
- [10:03]
Ramtin Arablouei
And here is where begins a passion.
- [10:07]
Devin Katayama
Story that is equal in Islam to the passion of the Christ in Christianity.
- [10:15]
Lawrence Wu
Takes three weeks to travel.
- [10:16]
Guy Raz
It was an episode that ended up being called the war of the worlds. And it was about the history of the Sunni, Shia divide in Islam. It came from, like, a personal place for both of us. And we were like, you know what? Let's really infuse ourselves into the show. So that they don't think anybody else can host it. Yeah, that's what we're worried about because, you know, we're producers and, you know, in terms of the production side of things, we had that covered. But we wanted to make sure that nobody. Nobody would kind of step in and host instead of us. And to Ramtin's credit, you know, he was like, hell, no. Nobody's going to come in and, like, churn this show into something else. Like, we came up with the idea, we're making it, and it was really just like the two of us doing everything for the first, like, year. And then we. At one point, we're working on another pilot because they wanted us to do a couple more pilots to really, like, get some experience under our.
- [11:05]
Ramtin Arablouei
Before we do say that, you should talk about what happened when we played that.
- [11:08]
Guy Raz
That's right. That's right. So before they told us to go off and make more pilots, we had to actually, like, play this first pilot episode, War of the Worlds, for my boss at the time. So we, like, booked a studio at NPR headquarters. We, like, dimmed the lights, and we sat in there with my boss and just played it. And around maybe 40 or 45 minutes, however long it was later, he, you know, we turn on the lights, and he's like, wow, like, there's something here. Like, this is really good.
- [11:44]
Ramtin Arablouei
The quote is.
- [11:45]
Guy Raz
I don't.
- [11:45]
Ramtin Arablouei
I remember the quote. He said, this is the future. I just heard the future of npr. Future of npr. Future of npr. Future of npr. Which was like.
- [11:55]
Guy Raz
Is that what he said?
- [11:56]
Devin Katayama
Yeah.
- [11:56]
Ramtin Arablouei
He's like, this is the future of npr. Yes. I heard him say.
- [11:59]
Guy Raz
I think I was so, like, I was so, like.
- [12:02]
Ramtin Arablouei
Cause, like, how we had no idea what he was gonna say. And he's not like a bsr. Like, he. If he didn't like it, he wouldn't have been mean about it, but he would have not responded like that if he had been like, oh, and this is a guy who worked, you know, had worked on Radiolab, like, working with them in the past, had been at wmyc. He had, like, a lot of experience. So if he didn't think there was anything to it, he wouldn't have said that. So it was, like, really exciting.
- [12:25]
Guy Raz
That was huge. So validating. Because otherwise we were just sort of like in our little, like, you know, keep in mind we're working on this, like, in the evenings and on the weekends, like, in between our day job of making hypothesis. And so, you know, this was, like, super validating for us because we were like, okay, it's not just us who thinks there's something here. Like, an outside perspective is actually telling us, like, no, there's something here. And then that set the ball in motion for us to make a few more pilot episodes over the next year and a year, year and a half or so. And. Well, I remember we were working on one episode about the history of US, North Korea. And Lawrence Wu, who is still a producer on the show to this day, overheard us, and he was, at the time, I think, an intern on How I Built this. And he was like, yo, what are.
- [13:13]
Willie T. Ramey
You guys talking about?
- [13:15]
Guy Raz
Hey, what are you all talking about? We were like, oh, we're working on this, like, show that we're hoping will get greenlit. And he's like, really?
- [13:25]
Willie T. Ramey
Can I work on this?
- [13:26]
Guy Raz
You know what? I want in. And Lawrence just jumped into the trenches with us and started, like, booking and researching and doing all this stuff. And so it was the three of us at that point, just working on this, what had begun as kind of a pipe dream. And it was a lot of long nights, a lot of work. A lot of work went into those early years, even before the show went out into the world. Kind of crazy to think about it.
- [13:53]
Ramtin Arablouei
Yeah.
- [13:54]
Guy Raz
You're listening to Throughline, where we go back in time to understand the present.
- [14:01]
Ramtin Arablouei
It was a lot of work. We had a lot of champions on the inside, people who really supported us.
- [14:06]
Guy Raz
Totally.
- [14:07]
Susan Rosaz
Yeah.
- [14:07]
Ramtin Arablouei
N'jeri Eaton, of course, Anya Grundmann. Folks here at NPR really supported us, and the teams that we were working on supported us. But it was a long journey that really was born out of our friendship. And I think the thing. I hope folks that are listening to the show still hear that, because I think the show wouldn't have not existed if we weren't friends first, I think, and really, like, enjoyed working with each other. Cause it was really hard. But I really wanted to do it for you, and I think you really wanted to do it for me. And that was, I think, the thing that sustained the show through that difficult. I mean, sustained our effort through that difficult time and sustains the show to this day. So hopefully listeners can really hear that. I'm sorry. I'm getting all emo. I'm getting all emo on y'all. But it's true. It was just really.
- [14:51]
Guy Raz
No, it's true. Because when you're, like, you know, and you hit obstacles, we hit a lot of obstacles along the way, and it's really hard to keep yourself motivated in the face of, like, setbacks and also have, like, daunting amount of work on your plate. Like, I was about to curse, but I'm keeping it, you know, PG over here. But, you know, it's like, it's really hard to kind of sustain that passion. And I think, yeah, I think our connection is. It's foundational to everything. And I think we've been lucky, you know, now over the last, like, few years to expand the team with other people who are able to, like, really believe in that same vision that we had at the beginning. It's, like, kind of wild, actually, I think. Right. For both of us to think that, like, people now believe in the show enough that they want to come and want to, like, take it to the next level. Like, we're constantly trying to push ourselves in terms of the sound of the show, in terms of the ideas of the show, in terms of kind of everything about the show. We wanted to just be a reflection of the way that the team is evolving, too. And so a lot of the great ideas and the way that the show evolved has been a reflection of the people who've come onto the team.
- [16:01]
Ramtin Arablouei
That's thanks to all of you who listen, who are listening to this now. We had no idea this many people would listen or be passionate about this show, and we're really grateful to all of you for listening.
- [16:11]
Guy Raz
Yeah. Thank you so much.
- [16:12]
Willie T. Ramey
Yeah.
- [16:12]
Ramtin Arablouei
And hopefully hearing about the origins of this show, I don't know, give you a little bit of entertainment, get a little, little break from your day.
- [16:23]
Rand Abdelfattah
We hope you enjoyed our conversation. And in a way, it's kind of like a how I built this episode, turning our pipe dream into the show it is today.
- [16:35]
Ramtin Arablouei
Coming up, what it takes to find and produce a story with people that have lived through a historical event.
- [16:51]
Susan Rosaz
This is Michael coming from Savannah, Georgia, and you're listening to Throughline from npr. I appreciate the connections that you both make from the past to help us understand the present and hopefully look for a better future.
- [17:03]
Willie T. Ramey
Thank you.
- [17:04]
Susan Rosaz
This message comes from Capella University. With Capella's Flex Path learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your schedule. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella. Edu.
- [17:21]
Anya Steinberg
Okay, so does this sound like you?
- [17:23]
Susan Rosaz
You love NPR's podcasts. You wish you could get more of all your favorite shows, and you want to support NPR's mission to create a more informed public. If all that sounds appealing, then it is time to sign up for the NPR bundle. Learn more at plus.NPR.org if you're a.
- [17:45]
Ramtin Arablouei
Regular listener of the Throughline podcast, then you probably enjoy some other NPR podcasts too. With NPR plus, you get perks for over 20 different NPR podcasts like this one. So start supporting what you love and stop hearing promos like this1@plus.npr.org Part 2.
- [18:09]
Devin Katayama
Living History so a lot of what.
- [18:12]
Ramtin Arablouei
We do at Throughline takes us to faraway places in the distant past. But sometimes we get to tell stories about living history and get to talk to the people who were actually there.
- [18:24]
Susan Rosaz
We were in our red truck and.
- [18:26]
Rand Abdelfattah
We were coming back from a trip from the ocean, and all of a sudden we came upon the big yellow caution signs that said caution PCB chemicals.
- [18:36]
Susan Rosaz
Spilled along roadways.
- [18:40]
Rand Abdelfattah
PCBs, otherwise known as polychlorinated biphenyls, are man made industrial chemicals used in factories. They're highly toxic, can cause skin lesions, and are associated with several kinds of cancer.
- [18:56]
Susan Rosaz
I saw it on the side of the highway. It looked greasy. It was substance there that I knew that shouldn't be there.
- [19:05]
Ramtin Arablouei
What happened next turned a small rural North Carolina community into the birthplace of the environmental justice movement, a movement that seeks to ensure an equitable and healthy environment for everyone. Helicopters flying all over.
- [19:20]
Susan Rosaz
I just couldn't believe it. As we approached the landfill, there were powey patrolmen in full riot gear, face shields, baton in hand. We didn't know whether they were going to beat us or what.
- [19:33]
Rand Abdelfattah
In this next conversation, you'll be hearing from producers Lawrence Wu and Devin Katayama about the making of our episode Two Miles down the Road. Here's Lawrence.
- [19:44]
Willie T. Ramey
So I wanted to ask you, Devin, how'd you find this story and why'd you pitch this?
- [19:50]
Lawrence Wu
Yeah, yeah. So basically when I think about pitches, I kind of just take time to sit quietly and try to think about, like, what in the world is going on? What are like the big stories? How am I feeling about the world? And I kind of just follow my interests and I think a lot of us producers on the show do that. And so one thing that came to mind was this term environmental justice. It's a term that I've been hearing for a really long time that, you know, to some degree I reported on as a reporter in my previous job. But it's a term I also feel like carries a lot of weight and means like a lot of different things to a lot of different people. And so like we do on this show, you kind of just start like, what is the history of X? What is the history of environmental justice? And so I originally Thought of doing this whole episode where we kind of look at the. At the very beginning, decades ago, and bringing it all the way up to, you know, how it's become such a messy, interesting, important topic today.
- [20:53]
Willie T. Ramey
You were talking about, you know, what made the story so compelling was the people that were involved in the movement. And I think that's one of the cool things about this episode, working on this with you, is that, you know, we talked to people who had this lived history.
- [21:07]
Susan Rosaz
Right.
- [21:07]
Willie T. Ramey
And so before we get more into that, how'd you find these guests? How'd you track them down? You know, because they're not. That's not like they're our typical scholar historian with their, you know, their university email out there.
- [21:18]
Lawrence Wu
Right, right, right, right. Well, that's actually. So that's one of the cool things about this story, like you said. And we don't do too many stories, you know, more modern, more recent history. So a lot of our. The people who we talk about are long gone. But in this particular case, you know, they're still around. They're still, like, advocating for environmental justice issues. So they're easy to find in that. They're still writing, they're still spokespeople, and they're from a really small town. I mean, Warren county itself is a pretty big county, but Afton. And the place where this happened is really small. So I kind of just followed the trail. The 40th anniversary of this event happened in 2022. And so I knew names of people who had been on panels who had recently talked about this. And I found a local reverend there who was on one of these panels, reached out to him. He was very quick to respond to me.
- [22:11]
Susan Rosaz
And if this means that we have to bodily stand in front of trucks, bulldozers, road scrapers, even give up our lives so that someone else can live many years in the future, I say it is our duty to sacrifice that.
- [22:34]
Lawrence Wu
After I got Reverend Willie T. Ramey's contact, it was really easy to find most of the people who are in this episode.
- [22:40]
Willie T. Ramey
Yeah, it just sounds like he's just super connected in terms of that local network.
- [22:45]
Lawrence Wu
And, like, everybody in the area knows of each other. Right. So it's one of those. You find one person, it's really easy to find the rest. Except, I will tell you, I had trouble finding the Ferruccios, who are very much important and featured in this episode. So that was kind of an interesting story, finding them.
- [23:05]
Ramtin Arablouei
In 1977, Deborah and Ken Ferruccio made a big decision. They decided to Leave Ohio and move to a small town in Warren County, North Carolina.
- [23:18]
Rand Abdelfattah
I moved here because I was looking for a rural community and a beautiful environment.
- [23:25]
Susan Rosaz
I kind of tagged along and here I am.
- [23:31]
Willie T. Ramey
Yeah, so I actually don't know how you found them.
- [23:34]
Lawrence Wu
So. Yeah, so the Ferruccios, just a little bit of background, they are really part of the core group of folks who found out that a landfill was going to be built nearby. And they really started organizing just a few people, which blossomed into hundreds of people later on. So they were hard to find. They had recently done a podcast of their own about this event in Warren county, about this landfill being built. So I knew that they were out there doing stuff, and I contacted them through. Through their website for the podcast or for the work that they were doing. And I still didn't hear back. And it was getting to the point where I had researched it enough to know, like, I couldn't do this story without them, without hearing how it kind of formed at the very beginning. And I think I reached out to a spouse of their daughter.
- [24:28]
Willie T. Ramey
Okay. Yeah.
- [24:29]
Lawrence Wu
Who was. I think I got the email from, like, some. I think he was a professor somewhere on the East Coast. I can't exactly remember where. And he wrote back really quickly and said, I think that they would be really happy to hear from you. And from there, it just took off. And I guess they weren't checking their emails from the website. And there really wasn't any other contact information that I could find except for one old email and some public notes from way back when. Some public record for Deborah. But, yeah, after that, they were very responsive.
- [24:59]
Willie T. Ramey
It just goes to show, like, part of the work is also just being persistent. You have to find. If one email works. You have to find phone number or friend of a friend of a friend.
- [25:08]
Lawrence Wu
Totally. I feel like we've been running into that a lot lately, like, just trying to track people down. Book people.
- [25:13]
Willie T. Ramey
Book people.
- [25:14]
Ramtin Arablouei
Yeah.
- [25:14]
Lawrence Wu
It gets messy when it gets international. We've been doing a lot of that lately. Yeah.
- [25:18]
Ramtin Arablouei
Yeah.
- [25:20]
Willie T. Ramey
So on the topic of the guests that we're all featured on this episode, they obviously lived through this history. You know, they were part of this one event that kicked off an entire movement, spending decades now. And so, you know, oftentimes we're speaking to a historian and they're telling us things that they've been researching for decades and decades. But it's a different experience talking to someone, you know, that has lived through that moment. They were actually there on the ground. So what makes it different from our Typical kind of interviews that we do.
- [25:49]
Lawrence Wu
Yeah, it's kind of fun, but it's also kind of tricky. For one, you're telling somebody story. So this is somebody's very personal perspective, things that they went through, you know, so some of the context, the greater context, the reflective context that we get from some of our more academic guests can be lost. But what you gain is something very personal. And in this case, like, we just needed to know what organizing looked like.
- [26:16]
Susan Rosaz
The old fashioned way. Word to mouth, door to door, church to church, friend to friend, cousin to cousin, brother to brother, sister to sister, family to family.
- [26:35]
Lawrence Wu
But it's also tricky because you gotta fact check, right? Like, the things that they're saying for the most part. I mean, some things you don't have to fact check, like how they're feeling, but there's a lot that you have to double check and make sure. Like, did this meeting happen on this day? Were these people at this particular meeting who spoke, who they said they heard from? And so that's what made this episode a little bit tricky. Like, we had great story, we had great, like, facts that they provided. And one of the things that I really relied on here was the local archives of local newspapers. And this is something I hadn't really done in my career that I really loved for this particular episode because NPR has access to a database of old newspaper archives, and the local Warren county publications were invaluable. They provided so much like play by play, not only, like dates and things that the governor was saying and things like that, but actual play by play of the residents. Like, this is where local media really thrives and why it's really important. Like, they were kind of the record that I followed for the most part, or fact checked against. And then, you know what else makes it special is the fact that you can hear a lot of different people's perspective about this event. Often when we're doing stories that are millennia old or centuries old, it's hard to get multiple perspectives. You know, we might get multiple things that happen to groups of people, but we don't always get that personal, like, touch. And so with this particular episode, and actually you dealt with a lot of the people's stories because you dealt with the section related to the actual protest. That kind of was a convergence of a lot of people. It's just kind of, I don't know, it's cool to have that.
- [28:19]
Willie T. Ramey
Yeah, I would say just like, it was really fun working on the part where it's going through the protests from that morning to the months, years after that. And for me, I think one of the great joys you were talking about, you know, people's personal experiences. Like, one of my favorite stories in this episode was the protesters. They were put in. It's not a jail, but they're basically detained and they're hungry.
- [28:44]
Lawrence Wu
Yeah.
- [28:45]
Willie T. Ramey
And basically, some women, really kind women across the street, you know, fried up some chicken and started throwing it over the fence. And it's just such a scene.
- [28:54]
Susan Rosaz
So what the ladies did is they got some of these young guys to throw it over the fence. So we would be in the yard, say, chop me a biscuit. Or can I have a thigh?
- [29:06]
Ramtin Arablouei
Or, let me.
- [29:07]
Susan Rosaz
Let me have a breast. And over the road and over the fence, the food would come, and we ate.
- [29:15]
Willie T. Ramey
And so I'm curious to know, you know, what are some of your favorite stories that some of the guests told that might not have made it onto the episode?
- [29:23]
Lawrence Wu
I think that guy who told that story about the chicken being thrown over the fence, Walter. He also told us that Dolly Burwell, who's one of the main activists who we feature in this episode, that his mom babysat for Dolly while she was at protests and organizing and things like that. And I think that, like, for me, first off, of course, everybody knows each other in this area, but also, this is such a space in town. People are also helping each other out throwing chicken over fences or babysitting. And everybody's kind of connected in some way. So finding those little connections, I think, was really fun. And then, I mean, this made it into the episode. But one of my favorite anecdotes was Reverend William Ramey, who's one of the early organizers, who kind of gets called upon to help figure out how they're going to organize at the beginning. He kind goes into this barn at midnight with this small group of people, and he's asked to come. And he doesn't really know. He's a black reverend in a very white space, white town, meeting white people in the barn at midnight. And he kind of tells us his story about how he's getting to the barn.
- [30:35]
Ramtin Arablouei
Now, Reverend Ramey, unsurprisingly, didn't like the idea of meeting people who he didn't know in a barn at midnight. But he was also curious.
- [30:45]
Susan Rosaz
And I go into the barn, and I look around, and there is nobody there that looks like me, and how.
- [30:55]
Lawrence Wu
There'S this old bulb just hanging from the barn ceiling. I mean, he's very much a storyteller in this sense. And, like, he doesn't Know what to expect. And then he kind of learns, like, hey, we need to get our act together. How are we gonna do this thing? So those kinds of stories are the kinds of stories that you get when you talk to the people who've actually lived through these experiences. I kind of wanted to ask you one question.
- [31:17]
Devin Katayama
Yeah.
- [31:17]
Lawrence Wu
So you produced Part three, which was the day of the main protests, and it's this iconic moment for this event. It's really what got all the headlines and national press and pictures. When you look back on that, like, that's the time that the media was paying attention was when the protests happened. So how did you go about producing it? Because I know we had some personal stories. I also know there was some raw video from that time. So what was that like for you and how'd you go about doing it?
- [31:46]
Willie T. Ramey
Yeah, I mean, that whole section, I mean, it's just one scene after another, Right. So it starts very quiet. It's the morning. They're all gathered at the church. They're gonna go out and sit on this march. And then it quickly escalates to them confronting police or kind of state troopers. And then another scene follows. So I just thought of it as scenes, contained scenes. I mean, for me, just producing, it's. It's moving to see, like, this is how an event. This is how a community rallies together to really fight for a change. And this is how it's done. Your bodies have to be that. Your physical personhood has to be out there on the streets, lying near the ditch where the dump site is. All these things. Like, it's really just empowering to hear and just. It gives you hope. I'm not a super optimistic person, but. But just listening to the different. You know, the different guests retelling that day, especially the. On the day of the protest and on the more kind of technical side, the production side, because I have all these different perspectives from the guests, I was able to kind of mix them in and weave them together. So it really feels like they're just. They're all building on each other, telling just one story together.
- [33:00]
Susan Rosaz
I'm sure it was there to intimidate us.
- [33:02]
Ramtin Arablouei
And I felt, my God, we're going to war here. Helicopters flying all over. I just couldn't believe it.
- [33:11]
Susan Rosaz
As we approached the landfill, there were highway patrolmen in full right gear, face shields, baton in hand. We didn't know whether they were going to beat us or what. What we were seeing was State Highway Patrol and National Guard police cars just parked.
- [33:30]
Anya Steinberg
They went way down the road.
- [33:33]
Susan Rosaz
We were met by the commander of the highway patrol. If you do not cease this unlawful act, you will be arrested. If we did not turn around and go back, we would be arrested.
- [33:48]
Willie T. Ramey
I mean, it's one. It's definitely one of my favorite episodes to produce on just on that aspect alone, because like you said, we don't get a lot of opportunities to speak to guests who've lived through, you know, a really important moment.
- [34:02]
Lawrence Wu
Did you see some of the things that they were describing or the people who they were describing in the news? Like in some of the footage, too?
- [34:09]
Willie T. Ramey
Yeah. Yeah. So that was also really cool, too. It was definitely really helpful to watch these old local news TV news footage because it was exactly how everyone was describing it. It's like the one mile or two mile marched to the site confronted with policemen, wearing helmets, batons, people sitting, just civil disobedience. There was even images of the bus that they would put them and detain them and drive them away. And so, yeah, that was really great to have access to.
- [34:41]
Lawrence Wu
Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting because so much of history, historians and people, we kind of just fill in some of the gaps in some ways. And when you can actually see the history happening and then also get told it reflectively, like years, decades later, it's kind of cool.
- [35:01]
Willie T. Ramey
Well, it was really great working on this episode with you.
- [35:05]
Lawrence Wu
You, too.
- [35:05]
Willie T. Ramey
Thanks so much for chatting. I'm glad we got to talk about this episode.
- [35:09]
Lawrence Wu
Thank you, Lawrence.
- [35:12]
Rand Abdelfattah
Now you know a little bit more about how the sauce is made and how rewarding it can be to make an episode like two miles down the road.
- [35:20]
Ramtin Arablouei
And for an episode like this, and really, every episode on Throughline, there are a bunch of drafts and different iterations before it reaches your ears. And for every good story in an episode, there are at least five more that could have made the cut.
- [35:37]
Rand Abdelfattah
Coming up, how we decide which stories get greenlit and which stories end up on the cutting room floor.
- [35:50]
Susan Rosaz
Hi, this is Kamyar Marashi from Novato, California, listening to Throughline.
- [35:54]
Ramtin Arablouei
I love your show.
- [35:56]
Susan Rosaz
I've been listening to it for years. It's informative. It provides all sorts of interesting facts and information that I would have never known about.
- [36:04]
Willie T. Ramey
And I really get an enjoyment listening.
- [36:07]
Ramtin Arablouei
To it while I'm driving to the.
- [36:09]
Susan Rosaz
Ocean to go kayaking. Thank you so much. This is Ira Glass of this American Life. Each week on our show, we choose.
- [36:16]
Lawrence Wu
A theme, tell different stories on that theme.
- [36:20]
Ramtin Arablouei
All right, I'm just going to stop right there. You're listening to an NPR podcast.
- [36:23]
Susan Rosaz
Chances are, you know our show.
- [36:25]
Ramtin Arablouei
So instead I'm going to tell you we've just been on a run of really good shows lately.
- [36:30]
Susan Rosaz
Some big, epic, emotional stories and some weird, funny stuff, too. Download us this American Life.
- [36:36]
Anya Steinberg
Joe Biden's on his way out and Donald Trump's on his way back. Want to know what's happening as the presidential transition is underway? The NPR Politics Podcast has you covered with the latest news and analysis. Listen to the NPR Politics Podcast, Part.
- [36:51]
Devin Katayama
Three, the Better Story.
- [36:54]
Rand Abdelfattah
In this next conversation, we're taking you behind the scenes of our 2023 episode, Mythos and Melodrama in the Philippines, looking at the rise, fall and resurrection of a Filipino political dynasty.
- [37:09]
Susan Rosaz
As of the 21st of this month.
- [37:13]
Ramtin Arablouei
I signed proclamation number 1081 placing the entire Philippines under martial law.
- [37:21]
Susan Rosaz
Marcos goal was to stay in power. The only way he could stay in power was to declare martial law and.
- [37:26]
Anya Steinberg
Make himself dictator, which is what he did in 1972.
- [37:31]
Ramtin Arablouei
In the episode, we looked at how Ferdinand and Imelda Marcos rewrote and even invented histories to make their authoritarian rule appear preordained and even divine. It's a technique still being used today by their son, Philippine President Bangbong Marcos.
- [37:49]
Rand Abdelfattah
We'll let producers Anya Steinberg and Christina Kim take it from here.
- [37:54]
Anya Steinberg
So today we're going to take you behind the scenes of an episode that got released back in May 2023. And I have my fellow producer Anya Steinberg here to chat with me about it. Hey, Anya.
- [38:05]
Devin Katayama
Hey, Christina.
- [38:07]
Anya Steinberg
So where should we start with this?
- [38:09]
Devin Katayama
Since this episode was your idea, how about you tell us about where that idea came from?
- [38:14]
Anya Steinberg
Yeah, so this was an episode I actually pitched because right before joining Throughline, I was the Race and Equity reporter at kpbs. And one of the last stories that I was able to work on was actually when Bang Bang Marcos won the presidential election. It seems like foreign news. And I was a local beat reporter in San Diego, so you wouldn't think that that was a story I was going to cover, but there's such a huge Filipino diaspora all over the United States, especially in California and in San Diego. So I had the opportunity to, like, talk to Filipinos in San Diego about their reactions to this election. And it was divided. There was folks who were just like, this is appalling. So many of my family members were tortured under this regime or, you know, my family immigrated out of the Philippines in order to, like, escape the Marcos dynasty. But on the flip side, you know, there was also folks who had very fond memories of Marcos, even though you know, he was a dictator for multiple years. They thought that the country was actually better run under Marcos. And they also believe that bang, bang, Marcos should have the opportunity to prove himself, that he wasn't just a replica of his father. So it was divided. And the more I talked to people, the more I realized, like, this is an important story that is truly an American story. This isn't just foreign news. This impacts people who are living in the United States. And there's so many lessons we can draw upon about narratives about why people are drawn to certain political figures, what motivates them, and kind of the divisions. Right. Because just the way the Philippines is divided, I see those same divisions playing out here in the United States, you know, with our politics.
- [39:58]
Devin Katayama
Right, right. There's so many parallels between these two stories, and I feel like one of the things that drew me to it was just this idea of history repeating itself. Like, I remember when we were first talking about this, before you pitched it, you said something along the lines of, you know, his father was a dictator and now he's the president. And this is within, like, a generation's worth of time. How can that happen? And that question itself is just a fascinating story to work from.
- [40:28]
Anya Steinberg
That's right. So I was lead producing this, but we were in the trenches together from, like, day one. And I know in the beginning, like, we together pretty much learned the entire history of the Philippines at some point, like pre colonial, and we were trying to whittle down the story, and we did decide to focus exclusively on the Marcos. So, you know, something that we talk about in the episode is that the Marcoses come to power in large part because they are excellent myth makers. They are so good at controlling the narrative and creating a compelling story, you know, about their rags to riches dissension, about them not being elites and thus more relatable. And then as we hear onward, like to more grandiose myth making, Fernand and Imelda campaigned with pizzazz. Fernand gave rousing speeches.
- [41:22]
Susan Rosaz
There are still a thousand rivers to be crossed.
- [41:25]
Anya Steinberg
Imelda serenaded crowds with love songs, and they even had a motion picture made. So what we did with this episode and what I know we did together so well, is tell it in a, quote, unquote, melodramatic fashion in this kind of larger than life way. And we were really, really focused on finding those stories. And as a result, we found too many stories. And we like to start all of our episodes with what we call a cold open. And that was the part that was assigned to, you Anya, and what we do with Cold Opens is we want to intrigue you. We want to give you like a really good little story, a little entree in before we kind of tell you what the episode is about and then we continue in with our parts 1, 2 and 3. But Anya, you were given the Cold open for this one. And what happened?
- [42:24]
Devin Katayama
What happened? It was a daunting task. I actually wrote and produced a very different Cold Open than what finally aired as part of the episode.
- [42:38]
I
It happened around 1971 in South Cotabato on the island of Mindanao.
- [42:48]
Devin Katayama
Mindanao is part of the Philippines. On Mindanao, the a lush emerald green jungle butts right up against white sand beaches. Back in 1971, deep in the rainforest and high in the mountains hid a secret.
- [43:05]
I
A group of about 24 individuals were found. And this was the discovery of a so called Stone Age cave dwelling people.
- [43:19]
Susan Rosaz
They are going to see Momodaka de Wata Ta Sedai, the bringer of good.
- [43:24]
Anya Steinberg
Fortune to the Ta Sedai.
- [43:28]
Susan Rosaz
That is their name for Monda Elizalde.
- [43:32]
I
According to most accounts, Manuel Elizalde stumbled upon these people.
- [43:39]
Devin Katayama
At the time, Manuel Elizalde was serving in the Philippine government under President Ferdinand Marcos as a member of his cabinet.
- [43:47]
I
He got tipped off by a local who had sort of mentioned some interaction with this community that had lived kind of further in the inland. You know, these folks had never had contact with modern civilization. They didn't have the same dietary practices or agricultural practices. They were in fact foragers. Their tools were incredibly rudimentary. So what they were found with was suggestive of them being so far back in time. It's such a profound and almost ambitious way to describe a people. And it was feeding this idea and frenzy that people wanted to believe.
- [44:31]
Susan Rosaz
On the island of Mindanao, a last frontier of the Philippines, the forgotten people engage in man's oldest struggle. They are fighting for the right to exist. They are fighting for their lives.
- [44:43]
I
People were drunk on the Ta Sedai. Huge international attention flooded in surrounding the Ta Sedai. My name is Kathleen Cruz Gutierrez and I'm an assistant professor of history at the University of California, Santa Cruz. International reporters were interested in the discovery. And so this kind of fantastic event was this anthropological phenomenon for intellectuals, for the political community, for random citizens who would just sort of see that, you know, this was quite the marvel to perceive.
- [45:17]
Devin Katayama
The Tassadai had lived apart from civilization for so long that this level of attention was dizzying, maybe even harmful, to a point where Elie Salde and the Philippine government started to wonder if this golden age of research had to come to a close for the Tassaday's own good.
- [45:34]
I
So in a few years, the Marcos administration would actually call off all visits and say no one was allowed anymore into this place. And so Lisalde created this reservation that reportedly kept the Tacidae safe from any further scrutiny, investigation, or research visits.
- [45:52]
Devin Katayama
And there the Ta'sedai would stay, cordoned off from the rest of the world, free to live as they always had until 1986.
- [46:01]
I
A journalist, accompanied by a Filipino researcher, actually entered into the reservation, only to discover that these 24 cave dwelling people were, in fact, not of the Stone Age, but were likely paid by Alisalde and his team to act as though they were from the Stone Age. And all of the pieces started coming together that what was in fact, perhaps perceived at first as this anthropological phenomenon was really a hoax.
- [46:33]
Devin Katayama
Within the blurry story of the Tacitae, one thing is clear. The Tacitae had a purpose. They were fabricated for a reason.
- [46:42]
I
I mean, one has to really see it in this larger trajectory that the Marcoses were really creating for themselves this narrative arc that would be essentially, you know, tied back to the Stone Age and brought up, you know, to 1971 with them, to have a peoples that are coming out, you know, of the shadows of hundreds of years of colonization, the ravages of World War II, into this new decolonized experiment, only to discover perhaps the most untainted, you know, peaceful peoples. I think that really creates this romantic notion of the Philippines at the time that Marcos and Imelda for sure, are able to capitalize upon. For me, you know, as a historian looking back would say, actually, this was a great ruse, but it was a wonderful distraction.
- [47:35]
Anya Steinberg
Okay, so if you listen to the episode, we all know this is not how the episode started. We actually did decide to begin with the Filipino folktale of Malacca Semaganda, which I mentioned. Those are the kind of Adam and Eve of Filipino folklore.
- [47:49]
Ramtin Arablouei
The sky told the tired bird to build its nest on one of these islands. Once on land, the bird was struck by a bamboo stalk that was blowing in the breeze. Annoyed, it pecked at the bamboo, and then the bamboo split.
- [48:06]
Susan Rosaz
The first Filipinos emerged from these bamboo stalks.
- [48:10]
Anya Steinberg
The first man, Malaccas, which means strength.
- [48:13]
Ramtin Arablouei
And the first woman, Maganda, who was beautiful. And that's how the world began.
- [48:19]
Anya Steinberg
And in the end, we did decide to do that, because that's who Marcos and Imelda Marcos, his first lady, modeled themselves after. So it was just kind of a more clear through line, if you will. But we really Love the story of the Tassadai. So we did try to make it work. So thank you, Anya. But, Anya, you know, you sound designed this, and you made it. So can you tell us a little bit about what you were thinking and what this story was?
- [48:47]
Devin Katayama
Mm. Among the team, I think Cold Opens are the most notoriously difficult to produce. I think we could all agree on that.
- [48:56]
Anya Steinberg
I agree. They're the most changed every time.
- [49:01]
Devin Katayama
They have a lot of work to do. And especially for an episode like this, there was a lot of things that I was holding in my head going into the script that I was like, oh, my gosh, this is overwhelming. Like, number one, we have to tell the listeners that we're going to the Philippines. And some listeners might have never heard of the Philippines, so we have to tell them a little bit about what that place is. Like, what are the people like that live there? When did it become the Philippines? Just like any sort of background that. That seems, like, necessary for setting up where we're going. And then we're trying to introduce these larger themes that we're gonna kind of unspool and unravel throughout the episode of, like, myth building and melodrama. We have to introduce the family, the Marcoses, and talk a little bit about what was going on at the time, but not too much, because we don't wanna spoil what's gonna come next. And so when I sat down to make it, I think a place where I start a lot with Cold Opens is like, how am I going to take people to the scene? How am I going to build a story? Because you want to suck the listener right in. You want to have sound design, you want to have music, you want to have archival. And so I immediately went to YouTube and I was just watching all these documentaries of when in the 1970s, they found, discovered, quote, unquote, the Taciti. And these were, like, fascinating movies. I probably watched hours and hours of them because it's just all these people flying over the jungle, discovering these mythical, supposedly untouched by civilization, group of people. And so it was an interesting historical moment to look back on and realize that this documentary is essentially fake, but nobody knew it when they were making it.
- [50:45]
Anya Steinberg
I remember, like, going and watching some of those videos with you and some of these documentaries. I mean, this wasn't just Filipino documentary makers. This was the entire world. Like, National Geographic was there. US Newsmakers were there. And the tone and the way in which they talk about these people was already very telling. The fact that there's this, like, primitive people that had been untouched by, you know, Western society or the modern world. There was a real colonial gaze to the way that these documentaries you were looking at were even talking about these people, which I know added an additional layer to you, right? That's like an additional layer to the story is like from whose perspective do we hear about these people and what does that tell us about power and how do we contextualize that in the story? So there was a lot going on in this cold.
- [51:34]
Devin Katayama
There was a lot going on and I wanted to start the open in a way that you didn't know where it was going to end up. I didn't want to say, you know, there was this made up group of people who lived in the jungle in the Philippines. It was a lie. Like when the cold open starts, I'm basically framing it so that you think you're also tricked. You think that this is a real life discovery that happened in the 70s of these, I think Kathleen Gutierrez says so called stone age cave dwelling people like you're there. And then as you discover that it's all a lie, like I built it in a way so that you're discovering it while I am discovering it at the same time.
- [52:14]
Anya Steinberg
You know, we had discussions about this early on that is interesting because what we were trying to say and again, it was too complicated for a cold open was even a lie can have real life consequences. A lie has a life of its own and the life that it leads is real. And there was so much nuance there that I know we both loved. But even though it didn't work for the episode, it still really works for, I think the story we were trying to tell. And you did such an amazing job at it.
- [52:42]
Devin Katayama
It was such a pleasure to work on this episode with you and really fun to look back on it. Thanks so much for chatting.
- [52:49]
Anya Steinberg
Thanks, Anya.
- [52:51]
Rand Abdelfattah
Now, every time you listen to a new Throughline episode, you can wonder how many other actual cold opens were there.
- [52:58]
Ramtin Arablouei
And the answer is a lot. But I promise you, the one you're getting in the episode is always the best possible one.
- [53:07]
Rand Abdelfattah
That was our final behind the scenes conversation for this episode episode. But it doesn't have to end for you. If you want more behind the scenes conversation and how we think through episodes and topic ideas and just so much more, you can sign up for Throughline plus, which also helps support our work here. You can find out more@plus.NPR.org throughline and.
- [53:30]
Ramtin Arablouei
A quick note to listeners. Reverend Willie T. Ramey, who you heard from in our environmental justice this episode actually passed away in June 2024.
- [53:41]
Rand Abdelfattah
That's it for this week's show. I'm Rund Abdelfattah.
- [53:45]
Ramtin Arablouei
I'm Ramtin Arab Louie and you've been listening to Throughline from npr.
- [53:49]
Rand Abdelfattah
This episode was produced by me and.
- [53:52]
Willie T. Ramey
Me and Lawrence Wu, Julie Kane, Anya.
- [53:55]
Lawrence Wu
Steinberg, Casey Minor, Christina Kim, Devin Kadayama.
- [53:59]
I
Sarah Wyman, Irene Noguchi.
- [54:03]
Rand Abdelfattah
Thank you to Johannes Dergy, Nina Puchalski, Puneet Matiwala, Edith Chapin and Colin Campbell. Voiceover work in this episode was done by Lauren Swoo.
- [54:14]
Ramtin Arablouei
Fact checking for this episode was done by Kevin Voelkel. The episode was mixed by Josephine Niunai.
- [54:21]
Rand Abdelfattah
Music for this episode was composed by Ramtin and his band Drop Electric, which.
- [54:26]
Lawrence Wu
Includes Navid Marvi, Sho Fujiwara, Anya Mizani.
- [54:31]
Ramtin Arablouei
And finally, if you have an idea or like something you heard on the show, write us@throughlinempr.org thanks for listening.
- [54:45]
Susan Rosaz
On the Embedded Podcast Every Marine takes an oath to protect the Constitution against.
- [54:50]
Lawrence Wu
All enemies, foreign and domestic.
- [54:54]
Susan Rosaz
This is the story of a Marine in the capital on January 6. Did he break his oath and what does that mean for all of us? Listen to a good guy on the Embedded Podcast from npr. Both episodes available now. This message comes from mvmt. They have great deals this holiday season and the sleekest watches around. Whether you're gifting for family, friends or yourself. Shop 30 to 60% off MVMT's variety of designs, colorways and functionalities from the thinnest automatic dress watch under $500 to waterproof guarantee, adventure ready sports watches and rare ceramics. Be the good gifter this year. Shop 30 to 60% off now@mvmt.com and enjoy fast and free shipping. This message comes from the Kresge Foundation. Established 100 years ago, the Kresge foundation works to expand equity and opportunity in cities across Americ. A century of impact, A future of opportunity. More@kresge.org.