Captain America and the nation's conscience

Summary

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Throughline – “Captain America and the Nation’s Conscience”

Podcast: NPR’s Throughline
Host: Rund Abdelfatah
Date: June 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Throughline, host Rund Abdelfatah explores the evolution of Captain America, using his journey as a lens to examine the shifting identity and conscience of the United States. Through archival comic book voices, interviews with historians and writers, and insightful narration, the episode traces how Captain America has mirrored—and at times challenged—the nation's sense of justice, patriotism, and self-understanding from World War II to today.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Captain America as the American Mirror

• [00:18] Rund introduces the core question: How have the promises of the Declaration of Independence shaped America’s identity—and what better example than Captain America?
• [01:04] “Because of all the heroes, Captain America has always been a mirror into what it means to be American.” – Rund Abdelfatah
• [01:20] Captain America debuted in 1941 as a literal embodiment of American ideals: super-strong, draped in the flag, fighting on behalf of the “little guy,” but without inherent superpowers other than “his strength.”

2. The Appeal and Morality of Captain America

• [02:11] Captain America’s strength isn’t his most admired trait—it's his morality.
• [02:29] “He’s a character that all the other characters in Marvel look up to when they don’t know what’s the right thing to do.” – Devin Katayama, Producer
• [02:38] Captain America’s stance: “I came here to save blood, not to shed it.”

3. The Everyman Aspiration

• [02:57] Unlike Superman or Batman, “there’s always that chance…you could one day be Captain America.” – Comic Book Analyst
• [03:12] “Justice will always triumph.” – Captain America (Comic Book Voice)
• This grounds Cap as an attainable, relatable American hero.

4. The Post-War Crisis: Identity in a Changing America

• [05:52] After WWII, Captain America’s enemies vanish. America is a superpower; Cap is “directionless.”
• [06:19] “Captain America, without a big war, almost becomes directionless.” – Narrator
• Cap disappears from comics in the 1950s.

5. Return & Relevance: Civil Rights to Vietnam

• [06:32] In 1964, Stan Lee resurrects Captain America amidst civil rights turmoil, women’s liberation, and Vietnam.
• [07:16] “Cap became this like Hamlet kind of character…hand stapled to his forehead in grief and anguish.” – Narrator
• He represents outdated ideals, struggling to fit in a turbulent new era.

6. Fan Involvement: What Should Captain America Stand For?

• [07:32] Marvel prints fan debates about Cap’s role—should he reflect government/military power or something more transcendent?
• [07:51] “Captain America is not a superhero. He’s a super American.” – Narrator
• Stan Lee struggles, fearing any political stance could alienate readers.

7. A New Direction: Steve Englehart and Watergate

• [08:26] Writer Steve Englehart (a Vietnam War conscientious objector) takes over in the 1970s.
• [09:12] Englehart’s idea: “What if he stood for American ideals…that transcend whatever America’s doing at this particular time.”
• [09:41–10:21] Englehart crafts “The Secret Empire” storyline, paralleling the Watergate scandal. He changes government names satirically (“Committee to Regain America’s Principles, a.k.a. CRAP”).
• [10:21] The President-as-villain is a clear stand-in for Nixon. Cap discovers government corruption at the highest level.

8. Disillusionment and Redefinition

• [10:59] “To have that guy [Captain America] find out that the President was a crook, I saw the possibilities of that guy being disillusioned.” – Steve Englehart
• [11:11–11:18] Cap renounces his identity, becomes Nomad. But after a year, he returns, now consciously standing for ideals—not the actions of those in power.
• [11:26] “He could stand for ideals, even if the President was a crook.” – Steve Englehart

9. Captain America’s Mutating Identity

• [11:31] Post-Englehart, Cap continually adapts. He’s been:
  • More militant post-9/11, fighting terrorism.
  • Critical of Guantanamo Bay.
  • Portrayed by Black and Native American characters.
  • Used in political and international debates (e.g., latest films address controversy by shifting international alignments).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• [01:12] Captain America (Comic Voice): “One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
• [02:29] Devin Katayama: “He’s a character that all the other characters in Marvel look up to when they don’t know what’s the right thing to do.”
• [02:38] Captain America (Comic Voice): “I came here to save blood, not to shed it.”
• [03:12] Captain America (Comic Voice): “Justice will always triumph.”
• [09:12] Steve Englehart: “What if he stood for American ideals, the stuff that transcends whatever America’s doing at this particular time.”
• [10:21] Steve Englehart: “Nobody is in doubt really who that’s supposed to be. Captain America. One day discovered that there were ads being run by the Committee to Regain America’s Principles saying that Captain America was a vigilante not to be trusted…”
• [11:26] Steve Englehart: “He could stand for ideals, even if the President was a crook.”

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• 00:18–01:20: Rund Abdelfatah sets the stage—the Declaration of Independence, American identity, and Cap as a symbol.
• 05:14–06:12: Cap’s WWII origin story and transition to postwar ambiguity.
• 06:52–07:51: Stan Lee and Marvel navigate the 1960s’ social upheaval and how to make Cap relevant.
• 08:26–10:59: Steve Englehart’s run—using comics to process Watergate and patriotism.
• 11:31–13:03: Modern incarnations—Cap’s ongoing relevance and changing face.

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Conclusions and Reflection

• Captain America’s narrative is inseparable from America’s ongoing moral, political, and cultural self-interrogation. He is as much a barometer for American ideals as a shaper of them.
• The character's crises—disillusionment during Watergate, wrestling with nationalism, adapting to new political realities—mirror those faced by generations of Americans.
• “These debates about what Captain America should stand for, who he should fight for, and what is right or wrong, they’re all part of the conversation we continue to have about who we are and who we want to be.” – Rund Abdelfatah [12:35]
• The episode closes by inviting listeners to consider: If you were Captain America, what would you do?

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Further Listening

• For a deeper dive, the show recommends listening to the full-length episode, “Does America Need a Hero?”, and teases next week’s exploration of the intersection between religion, capitalism, and television.

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Transcript

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[Rund Abdelfatah]

this is America in Pursuit, a limited run series from NPR and Throughline. I'm Rund Abdelfatah. Each week we bring you stories about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in the US that began 250 years ago. Over the past few months, we've been exploring how people have pushed and fought to make the promises laid out in the Declaration of Independence come true. And in so doing, they've defined and redefined what it means to be American. And what better example for understanding the identity of the nation than. Than an American superhero.

[Narrator/Commentator]

We shall call you Captain America.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Captain America. Because of all the heroes, Captain America has always been a mirror into what it means to be American.

[Comic Book Character Voice (Captain America)]

One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

First introduced to comic readers in 1941, on the eve of the United States entry Into World War II, Captain America was depicted as a blonde haired, blue eyed, white super soldier. To this day, his superhero costume is red, white and blue with a giant white star on his chest. He's pretty much wearing the American flag. And his only superhuman power is his strength. He carries no weapon and only a shield. And he fights only when he must.

[Comic Book Analyst/Commentator]

He's not someone who has always known power, so he is someone who knows what it is like to be the one getting sand kicked in their face. He's on the side of the little guy.

[Comic Book Character Voice (Captain America)]

Time for Captain America to go to work.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

Bam.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Many of us know Captain America from the Marvel movies he's in. But let's face it, out of all the superheroes, he doesn't have the coolest superpower. He can't fly or shoot webs or turn invisible. But what he does have going for him, aside from his super strength, are his morals.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

He's a character that all the other characters in Marvel look up to when they don't know what's the right thing to do.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

The right thing to do.

[Comic Book Character Voice (Captain America)]

I came here to save blood, not to shed it.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

In some ways, Captain America is someone many of us might want to be or might want to believe in. Kind of like America itself. We want to live in a place that stands up to bullies, that knows right from wrong and calls out injustice.

[Comic Book Analyst/Commentator]

You are never going to be Superman unless you suddenly find a lot of money from somewhere. You are never going to be Batman. But there's always that chance, isn't there, that you could one day be Captain America.

[Comic Book Character Voice (Captain America)]

Justice will always triumph.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

You, me, any one of us. We could be the good guy doing the right thing. But what happens when what's right isn't so clear? How does a comic book hero designed to represent America's values survive in a changing world? On today's episode, Throughline producer Devin Katayama brings us the story of what happened to Captain America after World War II and what his identity crisis tells us about what it means to be an American today. That's coming up after a quick.

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[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

Like all superheroes, Captain America has an origin story, and his goes like this. The scrawny guy named Steve Rogers is too weak to volunteer for the army, but he's got grit. So when the US Government asks him to be part of an experiment, he doesn't hesitate. Don't be afraid, son. You're about to become one of America's saviors. They inject him with a serum to give him super strength, and there it is done.

[Narrator/Commentator]

We shall call you Captain America.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

During World War II, Captain America fought Nazi saboteur and Japanese soldiers.

[Comic Book Character Voice (Captain America)]

Come on out, you skunk.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

He epitomized American power and identity wearing a red, white and blue costume that looked like a reimagined American flag.

[Comic Book Character Voice (Captain America)]

Justice will always triumph,

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

but after World War II, when the US emerged as a global superpower, Captain America didn't have a clear enemy.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Captain America, without a big war that the country is involved in, almost becomes directionless.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

This is Danny Fingerroth.

[Narrator/Commentator]

He wrote the book A Marvelous the Amazing Story of Stan Lee.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

Stan Lee is one of the most well known comic book writers in history. But at this time, he struggled to find an enemy worthy enough for Captain America. And Cap disappeared from comic books in the 1950s. But then 10 years later, in 1964, Stan Lee brings Captain America back.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Stan somehow made this appearance of Captain America the most important event of my Life. I bought three copies. That's right. I invested 36 cents.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

But all of a sudden, this American war hero was in the middle of the civil rights movement, the women's rights movement. A war in Vietnam was going on. So where does Captain America fit into all this?

[Narrator/Commentator]

Cap became this like Hamlet kind of character, just always with his. His hand stapled to his forehead in grief and anguish.

[Comic Book Character Voice (Captain America)]

I don't belong in this age. In this year. No place for me.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

By the late 60s, Marvel was also printing letters from fans inside the comic books where they would debate who Captain America should be and what he should stand for.

[Comic Book Character Voice (Captain America)]

His roots belong in the past, not now.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

No one but a dreamer can think the world is safe and peaceful.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

It became known as the patriotism centered controversy. Captain America is not a superhero. He's a super American.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Stan saw things were changing, and he also saw that his audience was changing. So it was a big problem for somebody in entertainment like that. You know, if you take a stand on an issue, you potentially lose half your audience.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

So Stan Lee tried to play it safe, but there was a lot of pressure from. For Captain America to be something more than a relic of World War II, which is what happened when the next generation of Captain America writers took over.

[Steve Englehart]

I always wanted a secret room like Batman had, you know, where you go through the grandfather clock and go into the cave or whatever.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

This is comic book writer Steve Englehart. I met up with him at his home in Oakland, California.

[Steve Englehart]

And so we built this.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

It's a bookcase that's a secret door. Englehart wrote Captain America comics from Marvel in the 1970s after becoming a conscientious objector during the war in Vietnam. So here's this anti war writer in charge of writing for a war hero. And Englehart begins to wonder if maybe where the writers before him went wrong was trying to equate Captain America with the American government or military. Instead, Steve thought, what if he stood

[Steve Englehart]

for American ideals, the stuff that transcends whatever America's doing at this particular time. And then they caught the Watergate burglars breaking into the Watergate Hotel to burgle the Democrats.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

The incident raises a number of serious

[Rund Abdelfatah]

questions about the credibility of politicians and political groups.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

Englehart was hooked on this story, as was most of America. And he asked himself, if I were

[Steve Englehart]

Captain America, what would I do?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

The Secret Empire.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

Steve writes a story that parodies the

[Steve Englehart]

scandal, so I recast stuff. Nixon's right hand man was Haldeman, who had been an advertising guy. And I came up with a character called Harderman, who was an advertising guy. And Nixon's re election committee was the Committee to re elect the President, which was known as creep. And I came up with the Committee to Regain America's Principles, which is known as crap.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

And he doesn't say it explicitly in the comic, but the head of the Secret Empire is basically Richard Nixon.

[Steve Englehart]

Nobody is in doubt really who that's supposed to be. Captain America. One day discovered that there were ads being run by the Committee to Regain America's Principles saying that Captain America was a vigilante not to be trusted. Then Captain America got thrown in jail,

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

but he breaks out of jail and chases the head of the Secret Empire

[Steve Englehart]

into the White House, into the Oval office.

[Comic Book Character Voice (Captain America)]

All right, Mr. Into the Line.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

It appears that my gamble has failed. Finally failed. Captain America wins, of course, but he's also broken.

[Steve Englehart]

So to have that guy find out that the President was a crook, I saw the possibilities of that guy being disillusioned.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

And Steve Rogers stops being Captain America and instead becomes a superhero called Nomad.

[Steve Englehart]

He doesn't want to stand for the America that he just saw.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

Less than a year later, Steve Rogers went back to being Captain America.

[Steve Englehart]

He could stand for ideals, even if the President was a crook.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

But Steve Englehart had forever changed the idea of what patriotism could mean to Captain America. That he could love his country and also not love what his government was doing. And that mutating identity would become the constant. As new writers came in. The iterations that followed have often been a response to the moment they're born in. Up until the present moment, Cap's been more militant. He fought terrorism after 9 11. Then he was critical of Guantanamo Bay. There have been black Captain Americas, a native Captain America. In the latest Captain America movie, Cap teams up with a superhero originally named Sabra, an agent for Israel's national intelligence agency, Mossad. After getting backlash, the studio decided to call her Ruth and had her work instead for the United States. These debates about what Captain America should stand for, who he should fight for, and what is right or wrong, they're all part of the conversation we continue to have about who we are and who we want to be. They all ask us. If we were Captain America, what would we do?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

That's it for this week's show. If you want to hear the full length episode all about the origins and many transformations of Captain America, check out the full length episode, does America Need a Hero? And join us next week for a look into how America got sold on the prosperity gospel.

[Steve Englehart]

God says it, I can have it. I believe it.

[Narrator/Producer (Devin Katayama)]

That settles it.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

The story of what happens when religion, capitalism and television collide. That's next week. Don't miss it. This episode was produced by Kiana Moghadam and edited by Christina Kim and Julia Redpath with help from the Throughline production team. Music by Ramtin Adablouei and his band Drop Electric. Special thanks to Julie Cain, Irene Noguchi, Beth Donovan, Casey Minor and Lindsey McKenna. I'm Rund Abdelfattah. Thanks for listening.

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