Going to the Source of L.A.'s Water

Summary

Throughline: Going to the Source of L.A.'s Water – Detailed Summary

Release Date: December 16, 2024
Host: NPR’s Rund Abdelfatah and Ramtin Arablouei
Produced by: Anya Steinberg

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Going to the Source of L.A.'s Water," Throughline delves deep into the historical and contemporary ramifications of the Los Angeles Aqueduct. This intricate infrastructure project, initiated in 1913, not only transformed Los Angeles into a sprawling metropolis but also had profound and lasting impacts on the Owens Valley, from where the water is sourced. Hosted by Julie Kane and produced by Anya Steinberg, the episode offers a nuanced perspective that shifts the focus from Los Angeles to the Owens Valley, highlighting the environmental, social, and ethical dimensions of this monumental endeavor.

Historical Context of the Los Angeles Aqueduct

The Los Angeles Aqueduct, spanning 233 miles from the Owens Valley to Los Angeles, was a pivotal development that facilitated the city’s growth into a major urban center. Anya Steinberg introduces the aqueduct as a system comprising open channels, concrete linings, and large pipes designed to transport water from a water-rich area to a water-scarce metropolis. This engineering feat was driven by the necessity to support Los Angeles' burgeoning population and economic expansion.

Anya Steinberg [02:39]: “The LA aqueduct is made up of like some open channels lined with concrete. There's some large pipes as a part of it. The whole goal is to move water from a place that has it to a place that doesn't.”

A Shift in Narrative Perspective

Traditionally, stories surrounding the LA Aqueduct have been predominantly told from Los Angeles' viewpoint, emphasizing the benefits and growth it spurred for the city. Anya Steinberg sought to pivot this narrative to explore the often-overlooked consequences faced by the Owens Valley.

Anya Steinberg [04:22]: “I wanted to refocus that onto, like, what did this take away from the place where the water came from and what happened there? How did people react and how were their lives changed by this event?”

Journey to Owens Valley

Anya undertook a ten-hour drive from Oakland to the Owens Valley, immersing herself in the landscape that has been directly affected by the aqueduct. The journey, characterized by the picturesque Sierra Nevada mountains and the stark, undeveloped expanses controlled by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (LADWP), set the stage for her exploration.

Anya Steinberg [08:00]: “The Owens Valley is in eastern California. It's bordered by the Sierra Nevada mountains. It's very close to Yosemite. It's just gorgeous.”

Engagement with Local Voices

Meeting Noah Williams

Noah Williams, the water program coordinator for the Big Pine Paiute tribe, plays a crucial role in conveying the indigenous perspective on the aqueduct's impact. Anya met Noah at an event hosted by the Owens Valley Indian Water Commission, which aims to educate Los Angeles residents about the historical and ongoing effects of water diversion.

Anya Steinberg [12:12]: “Noah was just very, very intently focused on, like, telling me his story and the story of the valley and the story of his people.”

Noah’s insights shed light on the struggles of the Paiute and Shoshone peoples, whose ancestral lands and water rights were significantly undermined by the aqueduct's construction. The ongoing negotiations between indigenous communities and LADWP underscore the lingering tensions and unmet promises regarding water rights and environmental stewardship.

Encounter with Richard Petashin

Richard Petashin, a passionate local historian, embodies the deep-seated emotions and historical grievances tied to the aqueduct. Described as a "kooky, very chattery California hippie character," Richard's extensive research and personal investment in the valley's history bring a human face to the broader narrative.

Richard Petashin [26:01]: “I always get emotional when I talk about the Wattersons too. And again, talk about self-interest and greed and tremendous violations of trust... What a story, huh?”

Exploring Indigenous Water Management

During a hike with Noah Williams, Anya discovered ancient irrigation ditches crafted by the Paiute and Shoshone people. These ditches exemplify sustainable water management practices that harmonized with the natural landscape, contrasting sharply with the modern aqueduct's extractive approach.

Anya Steinberg [16:21]: “The kind of engineering that was created to move the water without any sort of, like, pumping power machinery. It's very reminiscent of the LA Aqueduct itself because the LA Aqueduct runs on gravity.”

This exploration highlighted the sophisticated methods indigenous communities employed to manage and sustain their water resources, fostering a healthier ecosystem and supporting diverse flora and fauna.

Philosophical Reflections: Utilitarianism and Ethical Implications

A significant portion of the episode grapples with the ethical dimensions of the aqueduct through the lens of utilitarianism—the principle of achieving the greatest good for the greatest number. Anya and Julie engage in a contemplative discussion on whether the benefits to Los Angeles justified the detriments to the Owens Valley.

Anya Steinberg [22:29]: “I think the idea of the greatest good for the greatest number is a question that... no matter where we live in the US you're going to have to face at some point in the future.”

This discourse underscores the complexity of moral decision-making in resource allocation, especially in the context of environmental sustainability and social justice. It reflects broader contemporary challenges, such as climate change, where similar ethical dilemmas about resource distribution persist.

Emotional Resonance and Humanizing History

The episode culminates in a poignant exchange between Anya and Richard Petashin at the Alabama Gates, a historical site where Owens Valley residents protested the aqueduct. Richard's emotional recounting of past events and the personal toll it has taken on him exemplify the deeply human impact of infrastructural projects.

Richard Petashin [26:01]: “Never make you emotional to, like, stand. At these sites and just think, oh, yeah, terribly so... It just... What a story, huh?”

Anya reflects on this moment as a reminder that behind every historical event are individuals whose lives are profoundly affected by the decisions made.

Anya Steinberg [27:22]: “It's just the humanity at the center of history. Because at the end of the day, it's people facing decisions in the past that we may have to make again in the future.”

Conclusion

"Going to the Source of L.A.'s Water" offers a comprehensive exploration of the Los Angeles Aqueduct, weaving together historical facts, personal narratives, and ethical considerations. By shifting the focus to the Owens Valley and its inhabitants, the episode illuminates the enduring consequences of urban expansion on rural and indigenous communities. Through engaging storytelling and emotional depth, Throughline invites listeners to reflect on the intricate balance between progress and preservation, urging a more empathetic and informed approach to contemporary and future infrastructural decisions.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Anya Steinberg [02:39]: “The LA aqueduct is made up of like some open channels lined with concrete. There's some large pipes as a part of it. The whole goal is to move water from a place that has it to a place that doesn't.”

• Anya Steinberg [04:22]: “I wanted to refocus that onto, like, what did this take away from the place where the water came from and what happened there? How did people react and how were their lives changed by this event?”

• Richard Petashin [26:01]: “Never make you emotional to, like, stand. At these sites and just think, oh, yeah, terribly so... It just... What a story, huh?”

• Anya Steinberg [22:29]: “I think the idea of the greatest good for the greatest number is a question that... no matter where we live in the US you're going to have to face at some point in the future.”

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This detailed summary encapsulates the multifaceted discussions and insights presented in the episode, offering a comprehensive understanding for those who haven't listened to it.

Transcript

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[Julie Kane]

Hey, everybody, it's Julie Kane. I'm the showrunner and one of the editors on Throughline. And we're going to do something kind of special today. In the spirit of giving, we want to give you a preview of our monthly bonus episodes, our plus episodes. Usually these are just for our Throughline plus supporters because we want to give them a little bit extra for their support. And we're so grateful. Thank you so much. If you're already A Plus listener, but if you aren't A Plus supporter yet, we hope you'll consider signing up. It supports all our work at NPR and Throughline. You get these bonus episodes where you get to hear more about us and how we make the show and you get to listen to every episode without ads. So if you're interested, go to plus.NPR.org to find out more. Okay, so all of that said, let's get onto the episode. I am here with the fabulous Throughline producer, Anya Steinberg. Hi, Anya.

[Anya Steinberg]

Hi, Julie.

[Julie Kane]

How's it going?

[Anya Steinberg]

It's going good. I'm here in rainy Seattle talking to you. So.

[Julie Kane]

Nice. Well, you know, we're doing this kind of behind the scenes conversation, which I love to do because so much goes into all of our episodes. And let's talk about this episode that you pitched, reported called Water in the West.

[Anya Steinberg]

Yes.

[Julie Kane]

So what was that? Tell me a little bit about what that is.

[Anya Steinberg]

Yeah, yeah. This is perfect, actually, because, I mean, I mentioned it's rainy. We're going to be going back in my mind to sunny, beautiful California, which is where this story takes place. And basically this story that I pitched is the story of what happened when Los Angeles decided to build an aqueduct from this place called the Owens Valley all the way to la. The LA aqueduct is made up of like some open channels lined with concrete. There's some large pipes as a part of it. It looks different in different places, but the whole goal is to move water from a place that has it to a place that doesn't. And they did that because they needed water to make the city into the metropolis it is today.

[Richard Petashin]

Are you going to leave this water here for 5,000 people in this isolated mountain valley, or are you going to let it go to Los Angeles, where 100,000 or 200,000 people are going to make use of it and we're going to have a metropolis, which would you choose? If your principle is utilitarianism, using a resource for the most people, for the most good, then it's an easy call to say, Los Angeles, you're going to get the water. And so the Owens Valley were told, sorry folks, more people down there, they have the money, they own the water already. We are going to permit LA to do this. And so that's what happened.

[Anya Steinberg]

But when they did that, it had unintended consequences on like a variety of levels. You know, it made people in the Valley mad, it affected the environment. There's all this kind of drama that plays out after the aqueduct opens. So that's what this episode is about.

[Julie Kane]

And you know, when you first started talking to me about this, what I realized is my knowledge of the LA aqueduct kind of comes from this 1974 Roman Polanski movie called Chinatown.

[Anya Steinberg]

Yes, a classic, it really is, but.

[Julie Kane]

You know, that's fictionalized. But it's fictionalized around a lot of the story of la kind of moving from a dusty small town to becoming this like paradise.

[Anya Steinberg]

Yeah, yeah. I think you can't like understate how much the aqueduct changed la. Like you said, it basically went from like this dusty frontier town with a couple thousand people living there to this enormous city, the basis of Hollywood, kind of the epitome of the American dream. And that is all because of the water that the aqueduct brought.

[Julie Kane]

Got it. And so usually the story, as far as like what I would say common knowledge might be around it, is usually told from the perspective of Los Angeles. So like the movie Chinatown, like a lot of other things, Cadillac, Desert, other kind of reporting around this. But you wanted to tell this story from a different perspective. So could you just talk to me a little bit about how you decided to do that and the trip that it ended up taking you on?

[Anya Steinberg]

Yeah, well, like you said, this is not a new story. There's already been a lot done about it. There's been fictional and non fictional, like documentaries made about this. So when I was thinking about how this episode was going to work and how to through line ify this story, I through line. If I through line of I really wanted to go somewhere new and I wanted to meet new kinds of people. And I think the story a lot of times is told from LA's point of view and it's also told from Los Angeles. Like what did the aqueduct bring to Los Angeles? What did the people in Los Angeles think of it? Who were the people in Los Angeles that made it happen? And I wanted to refocus that onto, like, what did this take away from the place where the water came from and what happened there? How did people react and how were their lives changed by this event? And so luckily I got the chance to go there, which I think was really, really important too. I've done a couple of reporting trips for the show. It's always nice when you have these place based stories to be able to feel the place that you're going to be storytelling about, be able to like breathe the air, hear the sounds, like, meet the people who live there and just get a sense of like the culture, the vibes, what's happening. And I think for this story, like, you know, the history is so lived in the present in the Owens Valley. Like you can really see the effects of the history that this episode is about. And you can also like feel it when you talk to people who live there. You know, like a huge consequence of this aqueduct building is that the LA Department of Water and Power owns a lot of the land in the valley. And like, there's signs everywhere that say, you know, no trespassing. This is LADWP property. There's LADWP trucks everywhere. A lot of the people in the valley work for ladwp. And a lot of people in the valley, like I mentioned, have opinions about the aqueduct in the present day. They have feelings about it. There's a lot of emotion. Like, I think I was surprised by how many people there were brought to tears when they were talking to me about this story and like what it meant to them. So.

[Julie Kane]

And you know, the aqueduct opened in 1913, is that right? And here we are in 2024 and it's still operational. This is still where LA gets a lot of its water from. It's. This is about like 250 miles from LA, right?

[Anya Steinberg]

233 to be precise. By aqueduct. That's how long the aqueduct is. Yeah.

[Julie Kane]

And so, I mean, it's really interesting to think about, like this is still there, first of all, and that this is still a living story. Not all histories, not everything we tell is contemporary and still happening, but this one really is. So that's really, really interesting. So, okay, so you drove. Where did you go to tell the story?

[Anya Steinberg]

Well, I started in the Bay Area in Oakland, and I drove the seven hours on paper to the Owens Valley. And I say on paper because I'm a really slow driver. So it actually took me like 10. That's embarrassing to admit, but everyone who knows me knows that I'm a grandma. Behind the wheel. So I took my time and it's one of the most beautiful drives I've ever done in my life. The Owens Valley is, it's in eastern California. It's bordered by the Sierra Nevada mountains. It's very close to Yosemite. It's just gorgeous. And you basically drive through Yosemite to get there. So the roads are extremely hilly, very twisty, very turny. There were a lot of points that I had to pull over and just like breathe for a second. So it's a bit precarious, but it was also gorgeous. And you pass through just a lot of classic California forests, cool mountain air, beautiful streams.

[Julie Kane]

And so all that water is snowmelt, basically. From the mountains, right? From the Sierra mountains, yes.

[Anya Steinberg]

And I was there in the late spring, so I feel like it was a time when the snow melt was just starting to melt.

[Julie Kane]

Interesting. Oh, I didn't think about that.

[Anya Steinberg]

Yeah.

[Julie Kane]

So you can kind of get a sense probably from your drive, just like what kind of rugged terrain, you know, they were looking at in 1900s and.

[Anya Steinberg]

I'm driving a car on roads and they were building the aqueduct using mule powered machinery. So it is crazy to think about.

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[Julie Kane]

So let's look at some of the people that you met, especially in the Owens Valley. So one of the people I think you met is a a man named Noah Williams. So can you just talk to me a little bit about how you connected with him in the first place, what it was like to hang out with him, and what were your impressions of the landscape, walking around with him?

[Anya Steinberg]

So I met Noah at an event that I went to in the valley. This was my first day there. And it was an event being hosted by something called the Owens Valley Indian Water Commission. And a big piece of the contemporary story of the valley is that, you know, indigenous people have lived in the valley for thousands of years. And when the aqueduct was built, it was at this very complicated time in American history for Native people. And without going into all of the details of which there are many, and you can listen to the episode to find out, the aqueduct was a raw deal for a lot of the valley's indigenous people, the Paiute people, the Shoshone people, and they still live there today. There are several reservations in the valley and they still have a lot of negotiating that they want to do with ladwp. They believe that their water rights are not being respected in the modern day. They believe they are owed more from ladwp. And they believe LADWP is doing environmental harm to the valley through the operation of the Los Angeles Aqueduct. So I was at an event hosted by this commission to basically raise awareness for residents of LA about the LA Aqueduct and the history. So they invite like groups of people from Los Angeles to come on like a weekend long retreat. And they walk around, they have presentations, they let people experience the valley and where their water comes from in this way that they have never experienced before. So it was a really cool event. And that's where I met Noah, because he was there giving some talks because he's the water program coordinator for the Big Pine Paiute tribe.

[Julie Kane]

And what was it like for you to sort of be there after you'd been researching and reading and watching documentaries, et cetera, et cetera? And then you're actually in the place.

[Anya Steinberg]

Yeah, because I had arrived in the dark after my 10 hour drive. Driving to this event in the morning was kind of my first glimpse of the valley and its totality. And it was just breathtaking. I mean, there's, there's like one major highway that runs through the whole thing and then all around you is just this vast expanse of like, beauty. I don't know what, how else to put it, but there's mountains on all sides with these huge, jagged, snow covered peaks. There's like desert scrub vegetation, which there's not a lot of buildings because Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, like I said, owns a lot of the land and they keep it undeveloped because they're not really interested in the land. They're more interested in the water rights associated with the land. So it's essentially just like mostly empty of buildings, so you can see all around you. And when I got to this event and I met Noah off the bat, he was just very, very intently focused on, like telling me his story and the story of the valley and the story of his people. And so I, I mean, I spent like an hour with him that day, just grilling him on this hike that we went on, which kudos to him because hiking and talking is a whole other can of worms. And he was a very good sport about that. So I, I met, I met him on this hike and then we arranged to meet up later that week so that he could show me some traces of, of his ancestors. These, these ancient irrigation ditches that exist all over the valley that Paiute and Shoshone people used to irrigate the valley before the Los Angeles aqueduct existed.

[Julie Kane]

It's really interesting to me to think about, like, that water, that resource has been manipulated by human beings for a long time. So to see, like, how was it used by native people and how is it being used now by the city of Los Angeles. It's really interesting to sort of like compare and just see like what some of the technology that's used. What is it and what is it that you see in the landscape once you know what you're looking for?

[Anya Steinberg]

And that was exactly my experience. I went on this hike with him and I was being skeptical about what I would see. And at first on the hike, I honestly didn't get it. He kept pointing out these things and he was like, this is a ditch. And I was like, what are we looking at? Like, I don't really, I kept having to have him like, describe or like literally go Stand where he was talking about, like, this is the middle of the ditch. And I was like, okay, I think I see it. But as we kept going on this walk, like, it started to click into place for me. And I could see, like, these ditches are sometimes very deep and well preserved, and sometimes they're just like this faint whisper on the land almost, which is almost cooler to me that he can pick this out and that this has been mapped out by him and others from the tribe. But it was just crazy to see, like, once the ditch starts to, like, pop out of the landscape at you, how they, like, turn and swoop. The kind of the engineering that was created to move the water without any sort of, like, pumping power machinery. It's very. It is, in a way, reminiscent of the LA Aqueduct itself, because the LA Aqueduct is runs on. On gravity. There's no pumps. So I feel like similar ideas were going on when the Paiute and Shoshone people designed their irrigation ditches. As a former environmental science major in college, I was really, like, nerding out about how they manipulated and used this water in a way that changed the landscape to their betterment and also fed into the natural water cycle of the valley. The snow would melt off the mountains and run through these ditches across the valley, and all the while they're irrigating the land. So it's not like irrigation like we grow corn in these massive rows. It was more just soaking water into various parts of the land so that flora and fauna would grow, trees, grasses, and animals would come, animals that you could eat, like plants that you could eat would grow. And then, you know, the water soaks through the ground and recharges the water table. And so that is, like, how the water cycle works. It cycles through the landscape. So it was very, very cool to see that in action. And then to also see in the modern day and in the absence of that system and in the presence of a system where the LA Aqueduct is taking water out of the valley, never to return. Like, how that has changed what the landscape looks like. You know, it's dry, it's dusty, it's deserty. It was hard to imagine what Noah was talking about when he was describing what it would have looked like in the past.

[Julie Kane]

And so there's another person there that you hung out with. Tell me a little bit about Richard Petashin.

[Anya Steinberg]

Richard. He was one of my favorite people that I met. He's just so kooky, so himself. Very, like, California hippie character. When I met him, he rolled up in this big red pickup truck with all these bumper stickers on the back. Like one of them I remember seeing was LA Sucks the Owens Valley Dry. Like, which I thought was funny. And he was wearing this like long sleeve tie dye shirt that said furry hippie on it. He has like kind of shoulder length white hair that's a little bit all over the place. And the kind of person that he is is just the kind of person that's very chatty, can talk your ear off. And actually when we were like in the parking lot getting ready to leave, he like struck up this conversation with these other people in the parking lot. And we just stood there for 10 minutes. Like I was checking my watch, like, are we going to get out on the road? And he's talking their ear off about Owens Valley this, Owens Valley that. You should go here. It was just a cute experience.

[Julie Kane]

And what does he do? Why were you talking to him?

[Anya Steinberg]

He's a longtime resident of the valley and this history of the aqueduct is like a little bit of a passion project of his. Like he showed up with a stack of books and they had all of these sticky notes sticking out of them. And they were just books about the valley's history and about the aqueduct's history. And he was like using them to reference pictures and notes and things while we were talking. So this is definitely something he cares about and he has researched for a long time, which is why I wanted to talk to him.

[Julie Kane]

See, with both Noah and Richard, you were out in the field in their, you know, in their valley. And you know, you went on sort of, I don't know if I would call them adventures, but you went.

[Anya Steinberg]

Yes.

[Julie Kane]

I mean, maybe you went on.

[Anya Steinberg]

They were, they were adventures. Yeah, especially with Richard.

[Julie Kane]

Yeah, tell me about that.

[Anya Steinberg]

Yeah, we, a little bit of this is in the episode, but he. We had this grand plan to go see like the main sites of the aqueduct, the place where it begins, and a couple of historical sites along the way. And a lot of these sites are located down these service roads because obviously the aqueduct is still in operation. So LADWP uses these service roads and we turn onto them. It's very bumpy dirt gravel road. And we very quickly come up against this fence that is seemingly locked. And an outtake from the episode is just the expletives that Richard let out when he thought that our whole day might be foiled by this padlocked fence. But it turns out there was no lock on it, it was just a chain wrapped around the fence. So we just unwrapped the chain and shrugged our shoulders and drove through. And that was how we ended up at the place where the Los Angeles aqueduct begins, also known as the aqueduct intake.

[Julie Kane]

I mean, this is something you and I talked about a lot as we were working on this and, like, conceptualizing it. Like, what is this about? What is it really about? And what is it really, really about?

[Anya Steinberg]

Really, really, really about.

[Julie Kane]

And I know one of the things that we talked about is this idea of that Roosevelt sort of, you know, we have to make decisions based on the greatest good for the greatest number. How do you think about the idea of the greatest good for the greatest number?

[Anya Steinberg]

I think it's an extremely complex moral question. I think you and I came into this episode kind of from different viewpoints. You know, I actually appreciated that because I think that tension, like, helped shape the episode where we were both trying to talk to each other about this and talk through what we thought of this, like, moral question. And that kind of push and pull is really at the heart of the episode. But I think the idea of the greatest good for the greatest number is a question that, like, no matter where we live in the US you're going to have to face at some point in the future. I mean, not to be a, like, merchant of doom and gloom, but climate change exists, and as you know, these effects worsen or intensify. I think people will be asking a lot of questions about, like, how do we allocate the limited resources we have to do good, and is it right to be able to take from one place to give to another? I think a lot of people in the Owens Valley expressed to me that they felt like a water colony, you know, a colony of Los Angeles, like something that only existed to be extracted from. And I think that that is, like, the flip side of the greatest good for the greatest number, because on one hand, when you have need and you want to address that need, I think there's very real, like, humanitarian reasons why we should help people. And sometimes taking resources from one place to the other is the way to do that. But that always has an effect downstream. Pardon my pun, but yeah. So, if anything, working on this episode made me more confused about what I think of that sentiment. But it is a really interesting way to engage with this moral question that we're all going to be grappling with. And a lot of places outside of California already do in different ways.

[Julie Kane]

Yeah, I love when our episodes get into a kind of philosophical place, which a lot of the times that's what's happening. Behind the scenes, dear listeners, is we're like, okay, we're going to tell the story about the LA aqueduct. Why are we doing it? Why now? What's different about the way we're going to tell this story? Is there anything that, like, really stood out? An aha moment you had while you were reporting, or.

[Anya Steinberg]

Well, to go back to Richard, I was very tired at this point. I had met up with other people before Richard. I'd been working for 10 hours at that point, just talking. So I was kind of like, tapped out, ready to go back to the car, and Richard stopped me. We were at this site called the Alabama Gates, where in the 1920s, the residents of the Valley, like, occupied the gates for four days and shut off the water supply to the LA A aqueduct or diverted the LA aqueduct to run into the Valley. So we were at the Alabama Gates and he was like, can you turn on your tape recorder again? I have something else to say. And then he just delivered this very beautiful soliloquy to me of, like, kind of these very emotional reflections that I feel like, you know, he spent decades thinking about this issue and living here. And a lot of it, I don't think, made it into the episode, which is why it's the perfect thing to talk about now. But he was talking a lot about, like, the humanity of everybody involved, the decisions that people were making, the secret fears and hopes that they were driven by, and how that all gets entangled together to create history. Never make you emotional to, like, stand.

[Richard Petashin]

At these sites and just think, oh, yeah, terribly so. Yeah, but, yeah, it's really, really emotional because once you've invested a great deal of your time and effort in researching, you know, a story like this and shared it with the public, yeah, I feel I get really emotional. And I think about not just the men and the women who were here at the Gates, but I think about everybody. It gets me really emotional to think about Eaton and Mulholland, President Roosevelt, J.D. lippincott, you know, all the. All the key figures. I feel I always get emotional when I talk about the Wattersons too. And again, talk about self interest and greed and tremendous violations of trust, all based on self interest and greed and, you know, the interest of Los Angeles, a growing city, and not being able to really feel the heart and soul of what was happening here. It's just. What a story, huh?

[Anya Steinberg]

I just thought that was beautiful. It almost brought me to tears. And he was. He was getting very emotional about it too, in the moment. So I think about that a lot. And I think that's something that we try and tease out in every episode that we make. Whether it's about the LA aqueduct or the history of Smell or whatever. It's just the humanity at the center of history. Because at the end of the day, it's people facing decisions in the past that we may have to make again in the future, or decisions we may have never fathomed of making. And it's at the core of every history that is.

[Julie Kane]

I love hearing that, Anya. I think that's just a perfect place to end our conversation. And it was really great working on this episode with you.

[Anya Steinberg]

It did.

[Julie Kane]

It is working on many things with.

[Anya Steinberg]

You day in and day out.

[Julie Kane]

Okay, well everybody, really thanks a lot for listening to this with us. And if you want to hear more of these really cool bonus episodes behind the scenes, how did we make this? What's some tape we didn't play for you? Kind of Episodes sponsor free meaning no ads and you want to just support more work like this, please consider signing up for Throughline Plus. You can find out more at plus.npr.org and we'll be back with another bonus episode just for Throughline plus supporters next month. Until then, thanks a lot and have a good one.

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