Loading summary
Transcript171 lines
- [00:00]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
This message comes from Progressive Insurance. Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [00:19]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
This just in. You were looking at, obviously a very disturbing live shot there.
- [00:23]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
We don't fully know the details. Did you see what happened, sir?
- [00:26]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Unconfirmed reports.
- [00:27]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Did you see what happened? What happened?
- [00:34]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
On September 11, 2001, as the ashes of the Twin Towers smoldered, A team of FBI agents met in a basement in Washington, D.C. the energy in the room was intense. It was their job to find out who did this, why, and if more attacks were coming. They started making calls to the CIA, to police precincts around the country, and to an agency known back then as ins, the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
- [01:07]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
We are doing numerous interviews, running down hundreds, if not thousands of leads around the country.
- [01:15]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Within three days, they had a list of 19 names. First name, Waleed Al Shari. The second, Wail Alsheri, also known as Waleed. And as investigators dug into each of those names, pressure mounted on the INS because all 19 hijackers had come from abroad and all 19 were on temporary visas. Some of their passports had fraudulent stamps in them and consulate officials didn't catch them. Two of the hijackers had lied on their visa applications and a handful of them had overstayed or violated the terms of those visas. Before the 911 attacks, the 911 Commission was set up to determine how so many federal agencies missed this and how to keep it from happening again. Here's audio from one hearing.
- [02:06]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
These 19 people got documents and got in the United States of America. They defeated the ins, they defeated the customs, they defeated the FBI, they defeated the CIA. They hijacked four American airplanes. It was a blur of activity. A lot, a lot of panic. A lot of like, like being kicked in the gut. That's about the best I could. I could describe it.
- [02:31]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Roger Werner worked for the INS at the time. On the morning of 9 11, he walked nearly 60 blocks in New York City to get to the INS office on Houston Street. And when he got there, he says there was a lot of work to be done.
- [02:46]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
There was still a lot of unknowns. There would be leads developed by other agencies. And a person was discovered that, hey, this person has overstayed their vis. You know, we're putting them before an immigration judge to see if they, you know, are removable. So there was a lot of work during that time.
- [03:00]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
For years, politicians on both sides of the aisle had fought for major immigration reform in the US and now it seemed like a massive terrorist attack had happened, in part because law enforcement agencies weren't sharing information with each other, and in part because of an immigration enforcement failure. So the political landscape changed radically. 911 was the turning point, the before and after, for how immigration enforcement works in this country today.
- [03:31]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
We knew that the United States government was serious.
- [03:35]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Within two years, the US government had undertaken its biggest reorganization since FDR's New Deal. And Congress approved the creation of a new entity, the Department of Homeland Security, and within it, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, also known as ice. Now, more than 20 years later, ice is everywhere. Showing up masked in parking lots, conducting arrests, at immigration hearings, even in some cases, targeting citizens and green card holders.
- [04:14]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
When you have plain clothes officers not identifying themselves, it makes you think of a totalitarian regime. It makes you think of a country where people are kidnapped.
- [04:23]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
The work that we do is to protect people and make sure that we remove these weapons and drugs off of our streets and hold those criminals accountable.
- [04:31]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Who would go forward and continue to.
- [04:33]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Use that to harm individuals. Since the beginning of President Trump's second administration, ICE arrests have surged and the goal is mass deportation. The vast majority of people ICE is detaining have not committed violent crimes. In fact, many of them don't have criminal records at all. And in July, Congress approved $170 billion for immigration and border enforcement, including $75 billion in additional funding for ICE. It's the most money the US government has ever invested in detention and deportation. And ICE is about to become the highest funded law enforcement agency in the federal government.
- [05:15]
Peter Markowitz
ICE says that it is looking for.
- [05:17]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
More recruits, offering signing bonuses of up to $50,000. I want to show you the front.
- [05:23]
Peter Markowitz
Page of ICE's recruiting website.
- [05:25]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
ICE is using recruiting posters similar to those from World War II. You can see Uncle Sam, and right.
- [05:30]
Peter Markowitz
Underneath him is the message, america needs you.
- [05:35]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Today on the show, what is ice? What was it created to do? And what has changed in 2025? We'll talk with two people who've spent decades working in very different parts of the immigration system. And we'll trace the story of ice.
- [05:54]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Hi, this is Omari from New York City. For a complete historical context and perspective, continue to listen through lines from npr.
- [06:05]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
This message comes from Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort. Journey through the heart of Europe on an elegant Viking longship with thoughtful service, destination focused dining and cultural enrichment on board and on shore. And every Viking voyage is all inclusive. With no children and no casinos, discover.
- [06:25]
More@Viking.Com support for this podcast and the following message come from Strawberry Me Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Are you stuck in a job you've outgrown or never wanted in the first place? Are your reasons for staying really just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from Strawberry Me help you get unstuck, discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your corner and claim a special offer at Strawberry MenPR. This message comes from BetterHelp President Fernando Madera describes how BetterHelp online therapy has.
- [07:02]
Peter Markowitz
Helped him for me, sometimes I just need to go and talk to somebody that is not gonna judge me right is gonna be there and they're gonna listen to me and I can start just saying, look, I'm not feeling right today and it feels natural.
- [07:20]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
I love it.
- [07:21]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
To get matched with a therapist, visit betterhelp.com NPR for 10% off your first month. This message comes from NPR's sponsor, Shopify. No idea where to sell? Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. It is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle. Once you've reached your audience, Shopify has the Internet's best converting checkout to help you turn them from browsers to buyers. Go to Shopify.com NPR to take your business to the next level today.
- [07:58]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Part 1 Before ice.
- [08:03]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Remember in the 1980s there was a large scale crime epidemic that everybody was afraid of.
- [08:10]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Roger Werner is currently employed by the Department of Homeland Security. He's worked there since the department was created in 2003, and he was a founding member of ICE. But for this story, he didn't speak to us as a representative of dhs, ice, or the US Government. The views you'll hear him express in this episode are his own, and many of them are drawn from his experience co writing a book about the history of the Agency, the history and evolution of Homeland Security in the United States.
- [08:41]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Having long history in the United States government, these are very complex organizations and a lot of stories are out there that have never been told from where he sits.
- [08:52]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
The story of ice starts in the 1980s. Good evening. We're coming off the bloodiest year in the history of New York. Crime rates in the US Were spiking. Some of that had to do with the crack epidemic. And because cocaine was being smuggled into the US by cartels south of the border, some police departments started treating crime like an immigration issue.
- [09:14]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Hispanic gang violence erupts in East Los Angeles.
- [09:18]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Street violence due to criminal track buys gone bad here has gotten much worse.
- [09:22]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
As all of you know, crime today is an American epidemic.
- [09:26]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Recent studies suggest that immigrants to the US have historically been less likely to commit crimes than people born here. But still, during the 1980s, immigration laws became more and more intertwined with criminal laws.
- [09:40]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
We are attempting to carry forward this comprehensive plan across the country to face down what has become a true menace.
- [09:52]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
At the time, immigration was increasing and was mostly overseen by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, or INS. In the 1980s, a series of new laws gave the INS more resources. One of those laws meant that even non citizens who were legally in the country could be deported if convicted of, quote, aggravated felonies. And the list of what constituted an aggravated felony grew. It started out with the big murder, drug trafficking and illegal trafficking of firearms and destructive devices. But with every new piece of legislation, the list expanded until eventually deportable offenses also included things like check fraud and drug possession. And with all these changes, the idea of a so called illegal immigrant and the role of INS in deporting them really started to take hold in American culture.
- [10:49]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
From movies I'm Tony Montana, a political prisoner. Vancouver and I want my human rank.
- [10:56]
Peter Markowitz
That's when I'm walking around the middle of February and all of a sudden there's a goddamn immigration raid and the doors fly open and all these guys come busting in and then they think that I'm an illegal and they grab me and throw me in the bus to music.
- [11:06]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Where were you born, man?
- [11:08]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Huh?
- [11:09]
Peter Markowitz
I was born in Easter LA, man.
- [11:13]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
I was.
- [11:14]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
But by the late 80s and early 90s, the federal government had started to worry about a new threat.
- [11:21]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
The rise of terrorism and the threat global terrorism.
- [11:24]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Roger Werner says the rise of personal travel and the Internet changed the nature of this threat. That combined with the first Gulf War in 1990 and 91, put the US government on high alert.
- [11:37]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
They knew it was only a matter of time before we would be attacked.
- [11:40]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Then in 1993, a group of men bombed the World Trade Center. Two of them had entered the US using fake passports and without visas.
- [11:51]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
So when you combine those type of things, you start seeing, you know, a lot of fear among especially voters and congressmen and lawmakers saying, when we're going to be attacked? These attacks are getting larger scale. What are we doing about this? To make sure somebody who comes in the United States leaves when they're supposed to and are here doing what they're supposed to be doing.
- [12:12]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
By the time 1995 rolled around, the federal government was supporting a record number of immigrants. More than half of those people had criminal records. And by that point, INS funding was three times what it had been in 1980.
- [12:28]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
And then the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, that was played over and over again on cnn. The bomb ripped a hole in the building, causing portions of all nine floors to collapse. We are seeing injured people everywhere. Rescuers continue to search for survivors in the rubble.
- [12:51]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
168 people died. Hundreds more were injured. Law enforcement officials raced to find who was responsible. And at first, journalists and police speculated that the attackers were from the Middle East.
- [13:05]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
They're looking for two, perhaps three, most likely two Middle Eastern men. She says that they were dressed in Arabic clothes with a burnous, which is that long veil on their head with the band around the forehead.
- [13:19]
Peter Markowitz
There was initial speculation about foreign terrorism. That speculation was quickly, you know, people were quickly disabused of that notion because it didn't take long for them to identify Timothy McVeigh as the bomber.
- [13:31]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
This is Peter Markowitz.
- [13:32]
Peter Markowitz
I'm a professor at Cardoza School of Law in New York City.
- [13:36]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
He also founded the Katherine O. Greenberg Immigration Justice Clinic, where he defends immigrants facing deportation and works on policy. Peter and Roger Werner agree this moment in the mid-90s was crucial. It became a turning point for immigration enforcement in the United States. But Peter says the irony is the attacker in this case was a US citizen. So a domestic terror, the worst domestic terror incident in American history by a white man, you know, born and raised in the U.S. how does that connect to the story about immigration?
- [14:17]
Peter Markowitz
It doesn't connect well in any kind of logical way. But what it does is it provides the catalyst for this new big piece of anti terrorism legislation that the kind of mood of the moment allows people with anti immigrant agendas to kind of pack these bills with all sorts of immigration provisions under the specter of the kind of the foreign terrorist threat, Though the terrorism that it actually was intended to address had nothing to do with that threat.
- [14:51]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Within a year and a half of the Oklahoma City bombing, Congress passed new immigration reform legislation. And it brought a few big changes to the immigration enforcement landscape. First, the new laws expanded the categories of who could be deported even further. Now any undocumented immigrant who was convicted of a crime was fair game.
- [15:14]
Peter Markowitz
People are arrested for things like unlicensed driving, for selling, you know, counterfeit goods, turnstile jumping, shoplifting, marijuana possession. A person like that, if they had contact with INS or ICE to follow that person could suddenly be subject to what the Supreme Court has called the loss of all that makes life worth living deportation. Even people here we're talking about who have been here lawfully, who might have a green card, who might have been here decades, who might have U.S. citizen children or family or even served in the U.S. army, have businesses.
- [15:51]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
At the time, the prevailing view was that local police didn't have the power to enforce federal immigration law. But and this is the second major change introduced by the 96 laws, suddenly that was an option. The federal government was offering to train and deputize local police to act as immigration officers, basically saying, hey, just so you know, you can help us out here if you want to.
- [16:18]
Peter Markowitz
And what's remarkable is in the years that followed, states and localities said, thanks, but no thanks, we don't want to do that. And they did it because law enforcement leaders across the country said, a we have a job to do and it's crime fighting and we don't want to divert our resources to immigration and B, if we did engage in this, it's going to undermine our crime fighting mission because we need to have good relationships with our immigrant communities so they can come forward as witnesses and victims of crime and we don't want to be seen as immigration agents. So that invitation that Congress extended, the law enforcement leaders across the country rejected.
- [16:56]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Call it Chekhov's invitation, it'll be back. Another variable here was money. The INS budget had already gone up since the 80s and showed no signs of slowing. In three years, the budget increased by around 50% and then came 9 11. Coming up, Ice is Born.
- [17:27]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Hi, this is Mike from Key West, Florida and you're listening to Throughline from NPR.
- [17:35]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
This message comes from Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates for multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. This message comes from Mint Mobile. If you're tired of spending hundreds on big wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks, Mint Mobile might be right for you with plans starting from 15 bucks a month. Shop plans today@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required. New customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. This message comes from Progressive Insurance. Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you Bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [18:39]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Part 2 no pre 911 thinking November 2002. It's been a little over a year since 9 11. President George W. Bush walks briskly down a red carpet at the White House, flanked by eight people in suits. A wall of news cameras follows him with their lenses as he sits down behind a small desk. There's a big sign hanging from the front edge of the desk with Protecting the Homeland spelled out in all caps. And as the applause continues around him, President Bush signs a piece of legislation to massively reshape the structure of the US Government.
- [19:24]
Peter Markowitz
It's now my privilege to sign the Homeland security Act of 2002.
- [19:29]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
The Homeland Security act created a brand new department in the federal government, the Department of Homeland Security. And to do that, President Bush consolidated nearly two dozen federal departments and agencies under one roof. The idea was to increase and improve communication. With this reorganization, the Immigration and Naturalization Service, or ins, ceased to exist. Many of its agents were moved over to the Department of Homeland security and alongside U.S. customs agents became part of ICE. And all of this happened very quickly, especially by government standards.
- [20:12]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Remember, between that Homeland Security act in like November of 2002 and the formation of DHS was only like five months, you know, it was a very short window.
- [20:28]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Roger Werner had been working for inside. Now he was part of ice. And he says, as far as the.
- [20:35]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Actual work was concerned, I transitioned smoothly. My job fundamentally did not change.
- [20:41]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
The changes were promoted as the government's response to 9 11, organized and intentional. But on the inside, Roger says some DHS employees just experienced it as a bureaucratic mess.
- [20:55]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Some of them called it mayhem, you know, that first day because nobody knew what to do.
- [21:01]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
But Rogers says as far as he was told, the mission stayed the same. Immigration enforcement officers were supposed to go after the worst of the worst. Gangs, sex offenders, and also anyone who might be plotting an act of terrorism.
- [21:16]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
So if there was somebody who overstayed their visa or should not be here, they should be prioritized and looked at, or even somebody who maintained a green card, if this put them in the realm that they violated the status of their green card, do everything you can to make sure that they were identified. That and the counterterrorism mission. So it was just a continuation of what I was used to in the INS of prioritizing criminal individuals and individuals that, you know, are high risk. Yeah.
- [21:44]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
And high risk translates just so I understand, to like, convicted of a crime of some kind, convicted of a crime.
- [21:52]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Or had significant interactions with say law enforcement that warrants this person might be dangerous. Do you want to take the risk that person is going to not hurt somebody? If they're not here on solid legal immigration grounds, how many bites of that app are you going to let them have until they murder somebody or seriously injure somebody? So you have to always make those risk based assessments.
- [22:16]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
I think some folks listening might hear that and say, well that seems like a stretch to go from someone, let's say having an altercation with a police officer to they're gonna go out and murder like a family of four. So how would you respond to that?
- [22:31]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
I would respond that saying any police officer or law enforcement officer has a wide degree of discretion. They have their own experiences, they have their own understanding of factors and they have to make risk based assessments of each individual they encounter. Because remember, we don't have all the time in the world to, to spend with every, every person in the country that may be out of their immigration status or here illegally. So you have to look at who are the threats. Who wants to risk that? I'm never going to live with myself if somebody got hurt because I didn't decide to pick up a phone or make a call or look into somebody. So there were different, there's always been different priorities. Other people have different perspectives. I mean, I will say this, that, you know, one retiree reminded me of a saying that we had that I think is very important. It's against policy to engage in pre 911 thinking, meaning we'll never, we'll never take somebody's word for it at the border that they're just here visiting somebody when we have information or a gut instinct because the risk is too great. It may be unfortunate, but at the same time too is I would never take that risk.
- [23:39]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
It's important to remember that at the time DHS and ICE were created, 911 was still extremely raw. In 2004, the Congressional Commission created to investigate the attacks finally released its report. Here is former National Counterterrorism Coordinator Richard Clark testifying to the 911 Commission about that day.
- [24:02]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
To those who are watching on television, your government failed you. Those entrusted with protecting you failed you and I failed you. We tried hard, but that doesn't matter because we failed.
- [24:23]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
In the decade after 9 11, the United States deported more people than ever. A research group called Track collected and analyzed data about this and it says the vast majority of people the US government deported after 911 were not flagged as terrorism threats or violent criminals. Immigration attorney Peter Markowitz says ICE's mission has never been restricted to just immigrants with criminal records.
- [24:50]
Peter Markowitz
Because if you look at the reality at its inception, the goal was 100% enforcement to deport each and every non citizen that could potentially be deported. So the data is consistent with that original strategic plan and very inconsistent with the rhetoric which says we're going after the worst of the worst.
- [25:15]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
We asked Roger Werner about why immigrants without criminal records often make up such a large proportion of the people ICE detains and deports.
- [25:24]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Quite honestly, they violated the law. Because if I go into a consulate and I say I'd like to go to the United States knowing full well I'm going to go there to work and never return, well, I've committed fraud, misuse of visa. I might have lied to a consular official. I might have shown that visa to an airline if I get it. I might have showed it to the inspector. I might have lied to the inspector. Just because a person wasn't arrested or convicted for them doesn't mean they didn't commit them.
- [25:51]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Just to be clear here, overseeing a visa in the United States is a civil offense, which means the government can find those people and it can even deport them, but it cannot charge them with a criminal offense. Entering the US Illegally is a crime. The first time it's a misdemeanor. After that, it's a felony. What I'm hearing you say is like, well, there was an original crime that was committed by even entering illegally.
- [26:21]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Yes. And I don't think generally in the American public, based on our research like that, they don't like people gaming the system because nobody else games the system. And any interaction with the federal government. When you apply for a visa overseas and you say, I'm going to come to the United States, I'm going to visit New York and Disneyland. That's what we expect from you. Not have a plan to immediately get to the United States and start working. That wasn't what you got the visa for. So, you know, I think there's a. To keep the system fair, it has to be well regulated.
- [26:52]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
After 9 11, a Gallup poll found that more than half of Americans thought immigration levels should decrease. And now the return of Chekhov's invitation. In the 90s, the federal government had given local police the option of collaborating with immigration enforcement. At that time, departments around the country said no. After the events of 9 11, more of them said yes. Here's Peter Markowitz.
- [27:18]
Peter Markowitz
Under the Bush administration, when ICE was created, they Had a few thousand ICE agents. They had hundreds of thousands of local and state police across the country, and they wanted to figure out how to get their hands on those folks. First, they started kind of dumping some immigration kind of information into what's called the national crime Information center database. And that's the database when you get pulled over by a copy for speeding and they take your license back to the car. It's one of the databases they're running you through to see if you're wanted for kidnapping in Idaho. And they started dumping certain categories of immigration into that, trying to bypass the kind of leadership and the policymakers on the state and local level and go straight to the local cops.
- [28:05]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
So in practice, if someone got pulled over for, say, speeding or a broken tail light, the police officer might run their name through that database and c, an immigration warrant.
- [28:16]
Peter Markowitz
And the big innovation, and this is the second thing that kind of has precipitated our era of mass deportation, was something called Secure Communities. And what secure communities is, is whenever somebody is arrested anywhere in the United States and they are fingerprinted, those fingerprints are eventually sent to the FBI to make sure that, you know, they're not wanted somewhere else in the country. Secure communities diverted those criminal fingerprint checks, and they're now sent from the FBI over to the Department of homeland security. Security. And the Department of homeland security can say, oh, wait, that person might not have a serious criminal problem, but we want them for deportation. And so that was the innovation that really allowed them to bypass the policymakers on the local level who have said, we didn't want this entanglement because they have no choice. When they run their fingerprints, it is automatically, immediately checked by ice.
- [29:12]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
By the end of his time in office, President Bush had deported more than twice as many immigrants as any president before him. That trend continued during the Obama administration. In every year of his first term, he set a new deportation record.
- [29:27]
Peter Markowitz
I think there's been a pretty consistent through line in ice's behavior. Not entirely. There are exceptions that we can point to, but a pretty consistent through line regarding immigration enforcement from Clinton to Bush to Obama.
- [29:41]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
But things did change under President Obama. His administration expanded Secure Communities, the program that shared fingerprint records collected by law enforcement with ICE. Under President George W. Bush, just 14 jurisdictions had participated in the program. By 2013, under President Obama, that number was up to more than 3,000 in all 50 states. And it wasn't optional. The other thing that set the Obama administration apart was a man named Tom Homan. If that's ringing a bell, it's because he's currently President Trump's border czar.
- [30:18]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
When you enter the country illegally and you know you're here illegally and you choose to have your assistant child, that's on you. That's not on this administration. If you choose to put your family in that position, that's on them.
- [30:29]
Peter Markowitz
So Tom Homan, he was a Border Patrol agent back in the day, and he rose kind of precipitously through the ranks of the Department of Homeland Security and had a leadership role under Obama. He was the head of what's called Enforcement Removal Operations, which is the biggest piece of ice. They're the guys who go out and arrest people.
- [30:48]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Tom Homan advocated for tough and punitive border policies. He went so far as to propose separating parents from their kids at the border if they were caught trying to enter the country illegally. At the time, his colleagues in the Obama administration thought it was too extreme. Put a pin in that. But meanwhile, deportations soared. Immigrant rights activists referred to Obama as the deporter in chief. And then in 2016, Donald Trump was elected president for the first time. How different was ICE under his administration compared to the Obama administration and the Bush administration before him?
- [31:32]
Peter Markowitz
Yeah, I think in Trump 1.0, there was more the same than there was different. Right. But the big Differences in Trump 1.0 between what had come before were first in rhetoric.
- [31:44]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best.
- [31:49]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
It started even before the election, during the campaign.
- [31:52]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
They're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists.
- [31:57]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
And it continued into President Trump's first term. The president often highlighted violent crimes committed by undocumented immigrants, though several studies found that, as had been true in the past, immigrants were less likely to commit crimes overall.
- [32:12]
Peter Markowitz
There was, you know, a phenomenon of horrific rhetoric coming out of the White House and coming out of the Department of Homeland Security. And there were some real horrors that were being visited upon immigrant communities. But those horrors were not different in kind than what I had seen over the previous couple of decades that I've been doing this work.
- [32:33]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
And Tom Homan was back in 2017, the Trump administration approached him to lead ICE, and this time, the idea of prosecuting adults and separating parents from their kids at the border, the one now Obama administration officials thought was too extreme, it got the thumbs up. Soon, audio leaked of what it sounded like.
- [32:58]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
We just don't have a lot of details about the conditions inside or how the children are faring after being separated from their parents.
- [33:05]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
That policy, officially enacted in 2018, led to more than 5,500 children of immigrants being separated from their parents at the U. S. Mexico border.
- [33:16]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
And that is why the audio that was released earlier this week from ProPublica was so jarring. The voices of children crying, calling out for their mothers and fathers.
- [33:27]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
People were outraged. Homan was grilled in Congress.
- [33:31]
Peter Markowitz
Mr. Homan, I'm a father.
- [33:33]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Do you have children? How can you possibly allow this to happen under your. First of all, your comments are disgusting. I've served my. I've served my country. And on tv, you're separating mothers and their children over a misdemeanor. We're separating mothers and their children because they've chose to violate this. But you just said it was a misdemeanor. We're enforcing the law.
- [33:57]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
There was so much backlash that President Trump ultimately ended the family separation policy with an executive order a little more than a month after his administration had officially rolled it out. But the protests continued. And over the course of the spring and summer of 2018, they coalesced around a theme. Abolish ICE. Thinking about that sort of abolish ICE movement that emerged, you know, in 2018. What would a world without ICE look like? And does that even solve the problem?
- [34:29]
Peter Markowitz
So this is something I've spent some time thinking and writing about, and I think it would look a whole lot like what we see in other administrative realms. Right. ICE is an administrative agency in the federal government. There are lots of administrative agencies in the federal government. The IRS monitors tax. You pick your agency. The OSHA monitors workplace safety. All of them have a scheme, a statutory scheme that sets legal limits that they need to enforce. All of them enforce those civil legal limits without huge militarized agencies that put people in cages. Right? When the SEC finds a business that is out of compliance with securities law, its first instinct is not to prosecute that agency to the fullest and hammer it with the harshest penalty possible. Its first instinct is to use something called cooperative enforcement, which says, is there a way to bring this company into compliance with the law? That should be our first approach with immigration. Right. And when ICE identifies somebody who is out of compliance, they don't have to arrest them and lock them up and start removal proceedings. They could say, hey, I'm giving you a 30 day, a 60 day window to initiate an affirmative application to regularize your status. If you don't do that, we might come for you.
- [35:52]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Roger Werner says, any country you go to will have some kind of immigration enforcement or border control. And the version of that we have in this country is the one Americans voted for.
- [36:04]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
I mean, they vote at the polls and they decide. People get elected on different things. And it's usually based on if the American people get tired of something, we let too many people, you know, so I mean, like, maybe we let too many people in. Maybe we let too many people that in and out of jail with criminal records without any type of deterrent factor. That doesn't work.
- [36:30]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
When Joe Biden was elected in 2020, he relaxed many of President Trump's policies. Many more people came into the country, though deportations also continued. And then in January 2025, Donald Trump took office for the second time. We spoke to Peter in July, and already he said things are very different.
- [36:53]
Peter Markowitz
Things have shifted in a way unlike anything I've seen in the 20 years that I've been doing this work.
- [37:00]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
That's coming up.
- [37:10]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Hi, this is angel from Paona, Colorado, and you're listening to Throughline on npr.
- [37:17]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
This message comes from Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right. They offer premium wireless plans for less. And all plans include high speed data, unlimited talk and text, and nationwide coverage. See for yourself@mintmobile.com Switch this message comes from Warby Parker. Prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Glasses designed in house from premium material starting at just $95, including prescription lenses. Stop by a Warby Parker store near you.
- [37:48]
This message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University. Interested in a quality online education. Capella is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at Capella. Edu.
- [38:07]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Part 3 the Pendulum.
- [38:11]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
I got three words for him, Jack, and all. You're going to see us take this country back.
- [38:20]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Shock and awe. That is how Tom Homan kicked off the Trump administration's second term approach to deportations. President Trump is pushing through a mass deportation campaign.
- [38:31]
Peter Markowitz
Immigration raids are up all across the country.
- [38:34]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Thousands of National Guard troops and hundreds, hundreds of Marines have been called to Los Angeles by President Trump.
- [38:41]
Peter Markowitz
Agents, often armed, wearing plain clothes and masks are showing up at places where Latino workers are known to gather. Hardware store parking lots, car washes, street vendor corners and rounding them up. They've grabbed people at bus stops or.
- [38:56]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Dragged them out of their cars. For the past few months, it's felt like Americans are seeing ICE everywhere. It's been hard to scroll Instagram or TikTok without hitting a video of workers and hair nets at a meatpacking plant being herded into a break room by ICE agents. A woman crying as she's put into a white truck, a black ICE van accelerating as a group of protesters pushes against its hood. Some of the videos are posted by ICE itself. The ICE agents faces are blurred. The people they're detaining are not. Immigration attorney and law professor Peter Markowitz says this moment, what he's seen unfolding online and in his own work is unlike anything he's experienced in ice's history.
- [39:48]
Peter Markowitz
The examples I might point to are like the deployment of non immigration agents, National Guard, other military and law enforcement agencies in a kind of sweeping, heavy handed, very visible manner. That is something that is unfamiliar to me in what I have seen in immigration enforcement in the time that I've been doing this work. And really in any time in my lifetime.
- [40:20]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Since the start of President Trump's second term, ICE is averaging more than 600 immigration arrests every day. In some states, that's more than double the usual amount, though government attorneys say there's no quota. Trump's deputy chief of staff, Stephen Miller, has set a goal of 3,000 detentions per day. That would mean a total of more than 1 million arrests every year. The repercussions are rippling out globally. In March, the Trump administration sent hundreds of immigrants to a notorious facility in El Salvador. And in July, it deported eight immigrants who'd been convicted of crimes in the US To South Sudan. Only one of them was from there. Peter Markowitz says that as far back as its creation, some of ice's work has always been about optics. And this is where historian and DHS employee Roger Werner agrees. Speaking as a researcher and private citizen, he argues that detaining immigrants at such high rates and even deporting them to countries they have no attachment to could be a powerful deterrent.
- [41:26]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
I recommend you all go to the southwest border sometime. Imagine walking 50 miles like, like an old lady or a kid. 50 miles. Wow.
- [41:37]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
But that, I mean, but that, doesn't that transmit a level of, like, desperation on their part to do that?
- [41:43]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Yes, but it also is the amount of risk you would take. You put your kid through that is one thing. An adult male going across and say, hey, listen, I'll send you money, we'll figure out how to get here. I can totally understand that. But, you know, and putting a four year old child, maybe in the hands of a smuggling organization, a cartel based, these people are absolutely brutal.
- [42:03]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
No, I hear you. I guess, I guess in my mind then I'm like, I have a two year old. But I think about it, I'm like, what would compel me to Ever put him in that situation, it would be. Things have gotten so bad in my present circumstances would be like, that's just how. In my brain, that's how it works.
- [42:19]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
I totally understand it. But you also have to say, is the risk worth the reward? Meaning, are you likely to remain in the United States? That's the real driver. The driver. Isn't that you know where you're going to risk your children? It's, are you going to.
- [42:34]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Right. If there isn't something worth it on the other side. Yeah, I hear you.
- [42:37]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
If you show and say, and we're talking theoretically here, I was not involved in these operations. If you show and say that, hey, you're not going to be allowed in no matter what you do, would you sell everything and try? No, you would look for another alternative.
- [42:51]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
We asked ICE about this. A statement from ICE in response to our questions read in part. It's baffling that anyone would even question a nation's decision to enforce laws enacted by Congress to deter crime, end quote. Peter Markowitz says, optics Aside, he's noticed two other major changes in ICE's operations. The first has to do with the judicial process when cases go to court.
- [43:19]
Peter Markowitz
You know, if you go to the immigration court at 26 Federal Plaza in Manhattan, where I often represent clients, what is happening there is different than what I have ever seen before. The agency is moving to terminate cases which normally, if you're representing an immigrant and the termination of a case, this is a victory. But the plan here is to bypass the immigration courts and to use extrajudicial mechanisms to deport people so they can use a mechanism called expedited removal. And it's a mechanism where ICE gets to act as the judge, jury and executioner. They don't need any immigration judge, and there is very little federal court review available. And an agent kind of determines on their own that this person is going to be deported with almost no due process. And so they move to terminate these cases for the purpose of using that alternative mechanism. Notwithstanding the fact that an immigration judge has a process underway and the person is fully compliant with that process, this.
- [44:26]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Is happening around the country. A statement from ICE in response to our questions read, in part, ICE is now following the law and placing these illegal aliens in expedited removal, as they always should have been. If they have a valid, credible fear claim, they will continue in immigration proceedings. But if no valid claim is found, aliens will be subject to a swift deportation. End quote. Since ICE's detention numbers began to rapidly increase, there have been reports of Overcrowding, poverty, poor sanitation, and lack of food at ICE detention centers. Peter says all of this is happening at places where conditions were poor to begin with. Have you ever been to one of those facilities?
- [45:12]
Peter Markowitz
Many times.
- [45:14]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
What is it like, you know, inside one of those facilities?
- [45:18]
Peter Markowitz
It is indistinguishable from the jails and prisons that I've also routinely visited. In fact, sometimes they're exactly the same facilities. You know, there are medical care of the poorest quality. People routinely die in immigration detention because of inadequate medical care. There's a couple of big private prison companies that manage the majority of these. And through a profit motive, sometimes you have to pay for things like soap or pay for things like toothpaste. And so it is really kind of the most minimal provisions that are provided to folks.
- [45:52]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
The second major change Peter has seen since the beginning of President Trump's second term is money. The one big beautiful bill is directing more than $175 billion to immigration enforcement. If you leave out the US and China, that's more than any country in the world spends on its military. In a year, ICE alone is set to get $75 billion of that money. Rogers says American voters are the ones who decided what our immigration enforcement system looks like when they cast their votes for president. Peter says the new funding complicates that.
- [46:28]
Peter Markowitz
I think it is really difficult even for me, and I spend all day long thinking about this stuff to wrap my head around and what that's going to look like on American streets. And to be clear, the 75 billion can be spent over several years. We know they're going to build a ton of immigration detention. The scale of detention is going to be astronomical. They are going to have massive physical presence of, like, militarized agents on the streets. I anticipate that that's going to become a norm. I anticipate that we're going to be seeing checkpoints, you know, and so I fear that level of funding is so out of scale with what has come before that we are at real risk of kind of becoming a police state. And we've already seen that ICE doesn't hesitate to move against citizens when it perceives the need to do so. So I think increasingly people are going to feel that in a very, very kind of visceral way.
- [47:31]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
What does that mean for the agency to have that kind of influx of funding?
- [47:37]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
A lot of responsibility, I would say, from a historical perspective, to spend the American taxpayers money wisely.
- [47:44]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Yeah.
- [47:44]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Make sure that they're getting the best use of their money and it's not wasted. It's a big responsibility. With that amount of money coming into an agency quickly that, you know, I hope historically the right thing is done with it. You know, that serves both the American people, the interests of the United States, and the. The people that are taken into custody, you know, they deserve. They deserve the rights that are available to them under the laws that Congress has passed.
- [48:16]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
But in spite of all the money heading ice's way and the responsibility that comes with it, Roger doesn't think this moment is fundamentally different from the rest of ICE's history, or, for that matter, INS's.
- [48:29]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
This is nothing out of the ordinary. None of this has been out of the ordinary over the years, as it's been a result of funding and congressional and executive and political support and largely driven by the American people. This comes in waves about every 30 years with our immigration policy, we become too generous, and people feel that we're being taken advantage of. So then now you want a more firm hand or, you know, a more thorough examination of things. There's always a pendulum swing, but there is. You do have to have a deterrent because we can absorb everybody inside the United States. So it depends on where you sit on the issue, is how you're going to judge that. I guess, you know, if you think we should let in everybody, then, you know, but that's not what the majority of the American public believe in. So that's not where the polls are. They want some degree of immigration enforcement. What that looks like, that's always a, you know, that's that pendulum swinging back and forth.
- [49:30]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Peter disagrees. He says if you look at current polls, you'll see that most Americans actually oppose the kind of immigration enforcement that's being carried out by ICE today. And he worries that we've entered an era where ICE is amassing more and more power, and he feels like the checks on that power are disappearing.
- [49:49]
Peter Markowitz
In the first Trump administration, you know, there were, you know, institutional players in the White House and DOJ and dhs, you know, said, wait, wait, wait, we have to follow the law. Those people are all gone. Like, there are no internal, internal checks going on anymore. Beyond that, what are the other checks? The immigration courts are being purged. Right. Anybody who is not kind of aligned is being pushed out. What I had hoped was that the Supreme Court may actually provide some kind of check against the most extreme examples. And with one or two notable exceptions, that has really not been the case. Right. Over and over again, they're letting them remove people to countries they have never come from or had any connection to. They're allowing the revocation of hundreds of thousands of TPS holders status Venezuelans. They're stripping hundreds of thousands of people of humanitarian protections. And so the Supreme Court is no backstop either. And so no internal backstop, no immigration court backstop, no Supreme Court backstop. We are in a really, really, really precarious place as a country.
- [51:07]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
I would impart to the listeners that you really have to understand that the men and women who work for these agencies, especially Immigration Customs Enforcement, have dedicated their life to public service.
- [51:20]
Peter Markowitz
Tom Homan keeps saying, just wait, just wait. We're just getting started. And I believe him.
- [51:33]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
This is the first episode in our series on how immigration enforcement became political and profitable. Next week, how the US Southern border went from a line in the sand to a fence to a wall. And that's it for this week's show. I'm Rund Abdelfattah.
- [51:57]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
I'm Ramtin Arablouei and you've been listening to Throughline from npr.
- [52:02]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
This episode was produced by me and me and Sarah Wyman, Amber Tsi, Casey Miner, Julie Kane, Lawrence Wu, Anya Steinberg.
- [52:12]
Peter Markowitz
Christina Kim, Devin Kadayama, Irene Noguchi.
- [52:16]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
Fact checking for this episode was done by Kevin Voelkel.
- [52:19]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
This episode was mixed and mastered by Gilly Moon. Music for this episode was composed by Ramtin and his band Drop Electric, which.
- [52:27]
Peter Markowitz
Includes Naveed Marvi, Sho Fujiwara, Anya Mizani.
- [52:33]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Thank you to Felicia Arriaga, Jasmine Garcia, Stephen M. McMartin, Ida T. Silva, and Isabel Patricia Vazquez. Thanks also to Tony Kavan, Nadia Lancy, Johannes Durgi, Edith Chapin, and Colin Campbell.
- [52:50]
Co-host (Ramtin Arablouei)
And finally, if you have an idea or like something you heard on the show, please write us@throughlinepr.org and make sure you follow us on Apple, Spotify or the NPR app. That way you'll never miss an episode.
- [53:04]
Host (Rund Abdelfattah)
Thanks for listening.
- [53:13]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
This message comes from Warby Parker Prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Glasses designed in house from premium materials starting at just $95, including prescription lenses, stop by a Warby Parker store near you.
- [53:28]
This message comes From NPR sponsor 1Password Protect your digital life with 1Password. If you're tired of family members constantly texting you for the passwords to streaming services. 1Password lets you securely share or remove access to logins access from any device anytime. 1Password lets you securely switch between iPhone, Android, Mac and PC with convenient features like autofill. For quick sign insert right now. Get a free 2 week trial for you and your family at 1Password.com NPR.
- [54:03]
This message comes from Bombas. Socks, underwear and T shirts are the top three requested clothing items by people experiencing homelessness. Bombas makes all three and donates one item for every item purchased. Go to bombas.com NPR and use code NPR for 20% off.