Throughline: "Line. Fence. Wall."

Podcast: Throughline (NPR)
Hosts: Rund Abdelfatah & Ramtin Arablouei
Producers/Reporters: Christina Kim & Anya Steinberg
Date: September 11, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of Throughline—titled "Line. Fence. Wall."—is part of their ongoing immigration series and dives into the tangled, contradictory, and politically charged history of the U.S.-Mexico border. The episode investigates how a once-abstract line on a map became today's heavily surveilled, contentious, and occasionally surreal border, marked by physical barriers that don't always match the actual international boundary. Through vivid storytelling, historical research, interviews, and archival sources, the hosts and their guests trace the border's evolution across three pivotal eras: from the first postwar survey, to the birth of fences, to the modern era of walls and militarized enforcement.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. A Border Up Close: Living with the Wall

[00:35–04:36]

• Setting the Scene: The show opens with Christina Kim getting a virtual tour of a house in Brownsville, TX, from realtor Eduardo Contreras. The backyard has a direct view of the U.S.-Mexico border wall.
• Contradictions of the Wall:
  • The physical wall doesn't align with the actual border—beyond the wall is still U.S. territory.
  • The wall is massive but punctuated by gaps and open sections.
  • Surveillance is ever-present: border patrol agents, sensors, and cameras patrol and monitor the area.
• Community Impact: The wall's existence often explains local development, and living next to it becomes a strange normal—a fence that's "just another big fence in the back."
  • Quote: "The truth is, because Mexico was not literally on the other side, to me, it's just another big fence in the back." – Eduardo Contreras [03:09]

2. Part I: Wild, Barren, and Worthless – The Birth of the Border

[07:09–20:15]

• Pre-Border Landscape: The desert between the Gulf of Mexico and the Pacific was long home to many Indigenous tribes—Yaqui, Tohono O'odham, Kumeyaay—who did not conceive of a fixed border.
• The Postwar Draw: The border was conceived after the Mexican-American War (1846–1848) and detailed in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.
• Survey Challenges:
  • John Russell Bartlett (an inexperienced bookseller turned Commissioner) and Pedro García Conde (a seasoned Mexican surveyor) led their respective teams through hostile, unmapped terrain.
  • Maps were inaccurate, reference points were off by miles, and the area was still dominated by Native nations.
  • The survey was marred by internal dysfunction, logistical nightmares, and cultural misunderstandings.
  • The border itself was a negotiated compromise, a "split the difference" deal around Paso del Norte (El Paso).
  • Quote: "As far as the eye can reach stretches one unbroken waste, barren, wild and worthless." – John Russell Bartlett [16:20]
• Completion & Consequences:
  • After years of recalibration, negotiation, and physical hardship (including deaths, such as Garcia Conde's), the demarcation was completed in 1855—marked only by scattered stone monuments.
• Indigenous Sovereignty:
  • Despite the survey, the territory effectively remained under Indigenous control, a fact that confounded and frustrated the surveyors.

3. Part II: Good Fences Make Good Neighbors – Communities, Commerce, and Conflict

[22:08–34:29]

• Ambos Nogales:
  • The town of Nogales straddles both sides of the border ("Ambos Nogales"), once functioning as a binational community.
    • The only distinction: building materials and a theoretical "line."
  • Entrepreneurial adaptation—John Brickwood's saloon straddled the border, selling American liquor and Mexican cigars without paying duties.
• The Arrival of Fences:
  • Originally, there were only pro forma markers (like piles of rocks), but with growing settlement (especially the railroad), greater demarcation became necessary.
  • President McKinley proclaimed a cleared border strip; homes and businesses—including Brickwood's saloon—were razed to create space distinguishing the nations.
• Mexican Revolution and Growing Anxieties:
  • The border became a strategic prize during the Mexican Revolution, leading to increased violence, raids, and migration north.
  • World War I fears (e.g., German spies) further ratcheted up enforcement.
• Catalyst Incident:
  • On August 27, 1918, a tense encounter led to a deadly shootout at the border; conflicting orders from American and Mexican customs agents led to chaos and deaths.
  • Cultural Impact:
    • The incident is immortalized in "El Corrido de Nogales," a border ballad.
  • Aftermath saw the first U.S.-built people-dividing fence in Ambos Nogales.
  • Quote: "Whenever I think about this, I think of the Robert Frost poem where he talks about how good fences make good neighbors..." – Guest Historian [32:44]
• Early Law Enforcement:
  • The fence was originally meant to separate space, not people. In fact, early restrictions were focused more on stopping Chinese immigrants than Mexicans.
  • The 1924 Immigration Act created strict quotas and established the Border Patrol, but much early enforcement concerned Prohibition.

4. Part III: The Border is Everywhere – Militarization and Modern Politics

[35:49–49:59]

• Changing Attitudes:
  • Silvestre Reyes, born and raised on the border, recalls youthful games helping unauthorized migrants evade border patrol.
    • "Play on the truck, and if you see the jeeps coming...start blowing the horn." – Silvestre Reyes [36:07]
  • The mid-century Bracero Program enabled legal labor migration, but anti-Mexican policies and mass deportations intermittently targeted Mexican communities.
• Operation Hold the Line (1993):
  • Reyes, now a Border Patrol chief, launched a show of force in El Paso, using hundreds of agents and vehicles as a "human wall" to physically deter crossings.
    • Quote: "People are in unchartered territory." – Silvestre Reyes [42:08]
    • Public Perception: Operation claimed a dramatic drop in crime, but experts dispute direct causality.
• Nationalization of Border Policing:
  • The El Paso method spread: Operation Gatekeeper in San Diego, Operation Safeguard in Arizona.
  • The number of border agents doubled in five years. Politicians seized on border anxieties.
• Politicization across the 1990s:
  • Immigration becomes a wedge issue, with images of border crossers and dire warnings about "illegal immigration."
  • Quote from campaign ad: "They keep coming. Two million illegal immigrants in California." [44:29]
  • Both parties position themselves as tough on border enforcement; anti-immigration rhetoric intensifies.
  • Notable Quotes:
    • "I'm suing to force the federal government to control the border." – Pete Wilson [45:04]
    • "The day when America could be the welfare system for Mexico is gone. We simply can't afford it." – Dianne Feinstein [46:06]
• The Clinton Administration and NAFTA:
  • Clinton simultaneously promoted more open trading borders (NAFTA, 1994) and implemented the first major metal border walls (e.g., in San Diego and Tijuana).
  • Officials hoped harsh desert terrain would deter crossings, but migration simply shifted to more dangerous routes.
  • Insight: The "highly militarized border" is born during the ‘90s.
    • "It's the ‘90s, I think, where we really see...the birth of that highly militarized border." – Guest Historian [46:53]
  • Critique: Instead of preventing migration, enforcement "pushed migrants into deadlier parts of the desert."
    • "Desperate people will do desperate things." – Ramtin Arablouei [48:56]
  • Reyes's justification: The point was not outright prevention but "managing" and "reeducating" people about the border. [49:21–49:45]

5. The Border’s Enduring Symbolism & National Politics

[49:59–50:59]

• The Modern Border:
  • 700 miles of physical barrier now line the border; surveillance and militarization have spread.
  • Border politics are leveraged nationwide—even as most Americans have never set foot at the border.
  • Key question posed:
    • "Why is this space that is so peripheral...so important in American politics?" – Guest Historian [50:03]
• Preview for Next Episode:
  • The country moves toward "a detention footprint in every community"—hinting at the diffusion of border enforcement far from the border itself.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|-------|---------| | 03:09 | "The truth is, because Mexico was not literally on the other side, to me, it's just another big fence in the back." | Eduardo Contreras | | 16:20 | "As far as the eye can reach stretches one unbroken waste, barren, wild and worthless." | John Russell Bartlett (journal entry) | | 32:44 | "Whenever I think about this, I think of the Robert Frost poem where he talks about how good fences make good neighbors..." | Guest Historian | | 36:07 | "Just play on the truck and when you see the jeeps coming, because we could see the jeeps coming from far away, just when you first see them, start blowing the horn. And if the border patrolmen ask you...tell them you’re playing. I was thoroughly briefed." | Silvestre Reyes | | 42:08 | "People are in unchartered territory." | Silvestre Reyes | | 44:29 | "They keep coming. Two million illegal immigrants in California." | Political Ad | | 45:04 | "I'm suing to force the federal government to control the border." | Pete Wilson | | 46:06 | "The day when America could be the welfare system for Mexico is gone. We simply can't afford it." | Dianne Feinstein | | 48:56 | "Desperate people will do desperate things. And we learned that people did do it." | Ramtin Arablouei | | 49:21–49:45 | "Well, that the border...can be managed. The border can be managed. People can be reeducated..." | Silvestre Reyes | | 50:03 | "Why is this space that is so peripheral...so important in American politics?" | Guest Historian |

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|--------------| | 00:35–04:36 | Real estate tour, border wall as a backyard fence | | 07:09–20:15 | The first survey: U.S. & Mexican boundary commissions, mapping, Indigenous sovereignty | | 22:08–34:29 | Ambos Nogales: a binational community, birth of the first fences, The Nogales shootout | | 35:49–49:59 | Bracero Program, Operation Hold the Line, ’90s border militarization, NAFTA, modern walls | | 49:59–50:59 | Border’s symbolism, national politics, and continuing expansion of border enforcement |

Tone & Style

The episode blends vivid scene-setting, journalism, and archival voices. It’s analytic but accessible, moving seamlessly from historical anecdotes and local color to deeper political analyses. The show’s “time machine” sensibility keeps the tone inquisitive and empathetic, often using dialogue and direct narration to immerse listeners in pivotal moments.

Summary

"Line. Fence. Wall." unspools the history of the southern U.S. border, challenging common assumptions and revealing how each phase of “bordering” was shaped by wider societal, political, and economic forces. Far from a static line, the border is exposed as a living experiment—one that has gone through phases of ambiguity, cooperation, and militarization, morphing alongside America’s fears, ambitions, and election cycles. The result is a border that is at once an ever-changing reality for those living near it—and an enduring symbol wielded in national politics, often far removed from the realities on the ground.