The World Cup was supposed to bring world peace

Summary

Throughline (NPR)

Episode: The World Cup Was Supposed to Bring World Peace

Air Date: June 4, 2026

---

Overview

This episode of Throughline, hosted by Rund Abdelfatah, delves into the origins and evolution of the FIFA World Cup, critically examining whether its founding dream—to bring about world peace—ever came true or if the tournament quickly became entangled in nationalism, politics, and profit. The episode focuses on the World Cup’s founder, Jules Rimet, his vision amid the tumult of 20th-century Europe, and explores how the tournament has historically mirrored—and sometimes amplified—conflicts off the field. The show also reflects on the modern World Cup, including its co-hosting by the U.S., Mexico, and Canada against a backdrop of geopolitical tension and exclusionary policies, and investigates what the tournament’s enduring cultural power actually means.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jules Rimet’s Vision: Soccer for Peace and Unity

• Jules Rimet’s Early Life and Ideals

  • Rimet, a Parisian of modest means, preferred ideas to the actual playing of soccer (07:49–08:05).
  • Inspired by Pope Leo XIII’s social teachings, especially the idea that sport could "elevate people" and offer dignity, especially to the working class (09:02–09:41).
  • Rimet believed soccer could foster fraternity among nations and help build peace, proposing it could function as an apolitical meeting ground post-World War I (10:05–10:43, 12:40–12:46).

• Creating the World Cup

  • Founded the Red Star Club, a classless, educational soccer club (10:05–10:43).
  • Advocated for professionalism in soccer, distinguishing his vision from the elitism of the Olympic model (10:46–11:14).
  • FIFA was formed by European powers, largely excluding colonies and non-European countries at the outset (13:53–14:10).

• The First World Cup (Uruguay, 1930)

  • Uruguay hosted, partly funded the entire event, and saw the Cup as a way to assert nationhood and independence (15:16–15:35).
  • The first tournament was small, chaotic, and lacked today’s slick commercial spectacle—yet it was a success in terms of camaraderie and excitement (16:31–16:54).

2. The Dark Turn: Nationalism and Authoritarianism

• Rivalry and Riots: Uruguay vs. Argentina (1930 Final)

  • National pride exacerbated by competition led to riots and violence after Uruguay’s victory (17:50–21:17).
  • “Argentina breaks off diplomatic relations. So there is, you know, real consequences.” – Jonathan Wilson (21:31)

• Fascism & Football: The 1934 World Cup in Italy

  • Mussolini hosted, using the Cup as fascist propaganda (24:57–26:02).
  • Mussolini “basically invents sports marketing... or what today we might call sports washing” (26:11–26:14).
  • Stadiums, merchandise and media broadcasts served the purpose of showcasing fascist unity, virility, and power (26:27–27:14).

  Notable Quotes:

  • “I had the impression…that the real president of FIFA was Mussolini.” – Jules Rimet (28:13)
  • “Italy wants to show itself to the world as a welcoming, successful, modern, organized nation.” (26:51)

• Controversy of Fair Play and National Purity

  • Italian team’s ultra-physical play led to accusations of rigged refereeing (31:17–32:03).
  • Mussolini broke his own anti-immigrant policies to allow Italo-Argentine star Raimundo Orsi to play and score in the final (33:31–34:01).

• Nazi Germany and the Precedent Set

  • FIFA’s willingness to let fascist regimes host the Cup sent a message to other authoritarian powers (35:31–36:25).
  • France won the hosting bid over Nazi Germany for 1938, in part due to wariness of further authoritarian co-optation, but fascist symbolism remained prominent in the games (37:02–37:25).

3. World Cup After WWII: Nationalism, Safe Expression & Globalization

• Postwar Cup as Outlet for 'Peaceful' Nationalism

  • Germany barred in 1950 as punishment for war; returning later, nationalism becomes “defanged”—manifesting as pride without armed conflict (41:17–44:02).
  • “It’s almost like recreating war or battle on the pitch, but in a much safer, more pleasant way.” (41:42–41:49)

• Expression of National Identity for All

  • Even for teams unlikely to win, the Cup provides a platform for national celebration, unity, and international exchange (44:29–46:11).
  • “It wouldn’t be the same World Cup if Cameroon and Japan and South Africa and Brazil weren’t there.” (44:29–46:11)

4. The Modern World Cup: Contradictions and Continuities

• 2026 Context: Profit, Politics, and Divisions

  • Record-high FIFA revenues, astronomical ticket prices, and participation controversies (03:47–04:23).
  • U.S. hosts during an active foreign conflict, with some countries banned or restricted from attending due to politics and immigration policies (03:53–04:23).

• Nationalism’s Double Edge

  • Teams often reflect immigrant populations, even as host and competing countries amplify anti-immigrant politics (51:28–53:48).
  • The makeup of teams sparks both celebration and debate: “When you see on TV those 11 young men in their plastic shirts... they’re kind of the nation made flesh.” (52:23–53:48)

• Sportswashing—or Something Else?

  • Unlike previous authoritarian hosts (Russia, Qatar, Mussolini’s Italy), the 2026 U.S. Cup does not attempt to project a more welcoming image but “overtly” shows its policies: “Trump is not really sportswashing... He’s overtly brutal and unfriendly...not pretending anything different.” (50:17–51:28)

5. The Magic and the Mess: Why We Still Watch

• Soccer as Both Ugliness and Beauty

  • The World Cup is always “ugliness and the beauty at the same time”—political repression and exclusion side by side with transcendent athletic joy (47:04–48:19).
  • “Once the soccer starts, it becomes joyous...these amazing moments, heartbreaking last-minute goals, stuff you remember forever.” (54:18–56:09)

• Soccer as a Mirror and Arena for Protest

  • The 2026 Cup could witness anti-Trump chants and demonstrations, with the tournament “a very contested space... in any recent World Cups” (54:18–56:09).

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

The Origin of the Dream

• “The main thing is peace. We need peace. Soccer can bring peace.” – Jules Rimet’s contemporaries (02:03)

On the Aftermath of the 1930 Final

• “Argentina breaks off diplomatic relations. So there is, you know, real consequences.” – Jonathan Wilson (21:31)

Fascism & Manipulation of Sport

• “I had the impression…that the real president of FIFA was Mussolini.” – Jules Rimet (28:13)
• “Italy have decided that foreign players are banned unless you’re from South America of Italian descent.” – Jonathan Wilson (33:54)

On the Double Edge of Nationalism

• “When you see on TV those 11 young men in their plastic shirts... representing your nation, at that moment, they’re kind of the nation made flesh.” – Simon Cooper (52:23)

On the Nature of World Cups

• “World Cups are this ugliness and the beauty at the same time.” – Simon Cooper (47:04–48:19)
• “People who say soccer has nothing to do with politics haven’t been paying attention.” – Simon Cooper (54:18)

---

Important Segments (Timestamps)

• [00:28–05:00] | The maiden voyage to Uruguay & Jules Rimet’s vision of world peace through soccer.
• [07:49–11:20] | Rimet’s background, motivations, and the foundation of FIFA.
• [13:29–16:51] | The creation of the first World Cup and early exclusions due to racism and colonialism.
• [17:23–21:17] | The 1930 Uruguay vs. Argentina final—national pride and violent aftermath.
• [24:57–34:16] | Mussolini’s World Cup and sport as propaganda; controversies over Italian nationalism and “Italo-Argentines.”
• [35:31–37:25] | The 1936–1938 intersection of World Cup, Nazism, and the limits of Rimet’s power.
• [40:40–44:02] | Post-WWII Cups, nationalism as “safer” and the West Germany 1954 story.
• [46:11–48:19] | World Cup as a site of contradiction: joy, nationalism, politics, and exclusion.
• [50:17–51:28] | Modern “sportswashing,” or not, in the Trump-era U.S. versus historic hosts.
• [51:28–54:09] | Teams, immigration, national identity, and the double-edged sword of nationalism.
• [54:18–56:09] | Anticipated protests, World Cup as contested space, and the enduring communal magic.

---

Conclusion

Throughline’s episode offers a richly detailed tour through the World Cup’s history, illustrating how Jules Rimet’s idealistic vision was both realized and undone—soccer as peace-giver and as conflict amplifier; as tool for unity and for propaganda; as communal catharsis and political battleground. Despite the darkness and “ugliness” that persists off the pitch—political repression, xenophobia, exclusion—the World Cup’s enduring magnetism is its ability to deliver shared joy, global awe, and moments of transcendent beauty for fans everywhere. For better or worse, the tournament remains a stage where all of humanity’s contradictions are vividly on display.

Transcript

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Support for NPR comes from TaskRabbit, your trusted partner for home projects. TaskRabbit connects you with skilled local taskers for furniture assembly, mounting and repairs. You can browse profiles and book help [e-mail] or on the TaskRabbit app.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

In 1930, an ocean liner called the Cont Verde set sail from Genoa. The final destination, Montevideo, Uruguay. Three soccer teams are aboard the ship. One from Romania, another from Belgium, and the third from France, along with some referees. For nearly two weeks, they journey across the sea in close quarters, everyone sort of sizing each other up, because when they make landfall in Uruguay, they'll be competing against each other in the first ever World Cup.

[Jonathan Wilson]

The French start training really early in the morning so they don't disturb the other passengers. So running around the deck, running up and down stairs, doing pull ups on pipes, and then the Romanians see them doing this. Hang on, maybe we should be doing some of that as well.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

But they also have a lot of free time and sometimes they just hang out.

[Jonathan Wilson]

They have dance contests.

[Simon Cooper]

It was like a holiday camp. We were young men having fun.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And there's one man on the ship watching it all with deep satisfaction.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

This very dapper man with silver hair, very careful mustache.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

He's not a player, not a ref. He's the guy who came up with this whole idea for a World Cup. And in his suitcase is a statue 30cm high, weighing 4kg, the New World cup trophy. His name, Jules Rime. And for him, there's a lot more than just soccer riding on this inaugural tournament.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

The main thing is peace. We need peace. Soccer can bring peace.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

He had big dreams for the World cup, believing it could bring together countries from around the world, people who might otherwise have nothing in common, at least for a little while.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

Look at this magisterial pass. Oh, my God. An invasion of the league.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Nearly 100 years after that ship set sail to Uruguay. Here we are getting ready for the 23rd World Cup. The U.S. mexico and Canada are hosting. And I'm just a bridge away from New Jersey, where some of those games, including the final, will be held. Very exciting. But I'll be honest, I'm also just thinking about the logistics of it all. Will I still be able to make it out to Jersey every week to see my mom? How's the traffic going to be? Will there be crazy fans everywhere? Okay, you didn't click on this episode to hear about my traffic anxiety, but I stand by it. I also thought about getting tickets to a game, but the prices are wild. We're talking as high as $45,000. So yeah, not in the budget. The International Federation of Association Football, AKA FIFA, the organization that founded and oversees the World cup, has projected a record breaking $13 billion in revenue for the four year cycle leading up to this summer's tournament.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

The United States military continues to carry out large scale combat operations in Iran.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And on top of this being a super expensive World cup, it's also happening while one of the host countries is waging a war against one country and is openly hostile to others.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

President Trump's immigration policies, including travel bans, have created concerns.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

The issue is that four countries in

[Rund Abdelfatah]

those lists are expected to play in

[Jonathan Wilson]

the FIFA World cup and play matches here in the US I'm talking about

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

Iran and Haiti who are under the full travel ban, and Cote d' Ivoire and Senegal who are under the partial band.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Meanwhile, Russia is prohibited from participating due to the ongoing war in Ukraine. Who gets to host? Who gets to attend? How much do money and politics matter? That's all in the background of this World cup and, well, a lot of recent World Cups, 2022 was in Qatar, 2018 in Russia. That got us wondering, did Jules Ramet's dream ever pan out? How did that first World cup go and when did things start to get messy?

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

The main thing is peace. Soccer can bring peace.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I'm Rendan Der Fatah. On this episode of Throughline from npr, we'll trace how an idea imagined in a war bunker to promote global peace quickly became a tool for something much darker and eventually grew into a multi billion dollar spectacle that millions of us are gearing up to watch, complete with catchy music from some of the world's biggest stars.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

Hello, this is Bryce Gehling from Kent, Ohio, and you're listening to Throughline by npr.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer 2]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Carvana Making. Buying a car 100% online with real transparent pricing and customizable financing that fits your budget. Browse thousands of cars and get yours delivered. Visit Carvana.com today. Delivery fees and terms may apply. This message comes from Thumbtack. Some tasks can feel easy, but home projects can bring second guesses. Is that noise normal? Is that water damage? Who should be called? That's where thumbtack comes in. Just upload a photo or voice note and it uses AI powered search to match with the right top rated local pro. So instead of guessing, there's clarity and confidence when hiring for your next home project, try thumbtack. Hire the right pro today. New shows, new music, new movies, keeping

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

up with Pop culture sometimes feels like a full time job. Thankfully, over at Pop Culture Happy Hour, it's literally our job. We break down what's actually worth watching,

[NPR Sponsor Announcer 2]

listening to and pretending you already knew about.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

So the next time someone says did you see that? You can say yeah, obviously. Follow NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour wherever you get your podcast.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

This message comes from Capital One, presenting sponsor of the 2026 Tiny Dess contest. After reviewing thousands of creative entries, the judges will crown one artist as this year's Tiny Dess Contest winner. They'll perform their very own Tiny Dess concert at NPR hq, then go on tour this summer with NPR Music. You can come along for the ride as they travel to 10 cities for a series of unforgettable live concerts, all featuring the winner plus up and coming local artists. With stops in Chicago, Austin, Los Angeles and more, you can experience the authentic talent and intimate performances that make the Tiny Desks so special. Visit npr.org tinydeskcontest to buy tickets. And while you're out, enjoy your night with the Capital One Saver card. Earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining and entertainment. Capital One what's in your wallet? Terms apply [e-mail] Part 1 Jules Rame

[Rund Abdelfatah]

dreams of Peace Jules Rame never really liked playing soccer as a kid growing up in Paris in the 1870s. It was an English invention slowly catching on in France, and he preferred to kick around ideas from the books he read.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

He's a clever boy, they're not rich, and he grows up in this kind of working class, lower middle class neighborhood.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

This is Simon Cooper. He's a columnist at the Financial Times and author of several books about soccer.

[Jonathan Wilson]

He trains the lawyer, so he's obviously ambitious, he's obviously bright.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And this is Jonathan Wilson. He's a columnist at the Guardian and author of the Power and the A New History of the World Cup. So Ramay wasn't a star athlete, didn't have a strong love of the game itself, but he did have an interest in the sports clubs popular at the time, the community aspect of sports, which he saw as being aligned with his religious background.

[Jonathan Wilson]

So Gilles May is a devout Catholic.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Pretty much everyone in France back then was Catholic, but Rame really took its teachings to heart.

[Jonathan Wilson]

He's very taken by Pope Leo xiii.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Pope Leo XIII was known as the Pope of the worker, and he wrote an influential text called Dhiv Nawaram, which

[Jonathan Wilson]

looks at the plight of the working classes.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

It lays out that working people deserve the right to form unions and demand fair wages and safe workplaces in the face of rapid industrialization. Pope Leo also recommended a series of ideas for making working people's lives better.

[Jonathan Wilson]

And the section of that which enraptures Rime is the one about sport and how physical activity can help elevate people. And so Rime is so taken by this.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

He sees sports and the growing popularity of soccer as a tool that could uplift the poor and working class, help give them a sense of dignity, camaraderie, and maybe most importantly, morality. After watching players compete on a field and then have a drink with their opponents, after he thought, if only the world worked like that.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

So he helps found this club, Red

[Jonathan Wilson]

Star, which still exists today. And he sets up to be classless, to try and have no class divisions. Once you're inside the club, you don't talk about politics. Everybody's treated the same. He tries to use it as an educational tool. So he hands out poetry to the members and they play football. So this is him using football in the way the Pope has indirectly instructed him to do so. And he has this very idealistic vision of football as something that can help bring people together, that can encourage fraternity among nations.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And he's adamant that these players get paid.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

You can't ask poor people to play without pay. And so he separates himself from the amateurism around the Olympics.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Quick aside here about amateur versus professional soccer. In the 1900 Paris Olympics, soccer was played for the first time. And it's kind of like the World cup in terms of nations facing each other, except in the Olympics, all the players had to be amateurs. In other words, they couldn't get paid for playing soccer.

[Jonathan Wilson]

He thinks the Olympics is for people who've already got money. And that's not what he's about in any way.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

So while the French soccer team still participates in the Olympic Games, Rame continues to push for professional soccer in France. Meanwhile, in Paris, an association of seven European countries form FIFA. And Rame sets his sights on rising to the top of it, a goal that seems within his reach. The future looks bright until 1914.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

The big kind of breaking point in his life is World War I.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

When World War I breaks out, Ramey is forced to leave his wife and three kids.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

He goes to the front immediately. August 1914. He's at the front for four years.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Four years of bullets whizzing by his head.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

You know, he's in this machine gun nest besieged by German, the sound of

[Rund Abdelfatah]

bombs going off in the dead of night.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

He's in the worst of the fighting.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

The stench of Gangrene, wet clothes, fallen friends.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

It's a miracle he survives.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And this whole time, sitting in the

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

trenches, he's writing letters home about soccer administration, helping create the new French soccer.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Maybe it was an escape, maybe a coping mechanism, or maybe he was just that obsessed with the idea of a World Cup.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

And he comes out from war, like many ex soldiers, thinking, we need peace, and we especially need peace between France and Germany.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Peace might have seemed impossible on the battlefield, but if they could achieve peace on the soccer field, maybe it would be a test run for something more lasting.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

And so he becomes president of FIFA very soon after the war. He's president of FIFA from 1921 to 1954. And he picks up the dream that FIFA had from its very beginning, when it was founded in 1904, which is, we're going to have a World Cup. We're going to have a world championship, where professionals complain.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

But first they had to figure out the logistics, like, where was this tournament going to take place and how were they going to pay for it?

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

They need a country to finance it because FIFA has no money. And what money FIFA has, they lose in the great crash of 1929 because their treasurer, this Dutchman, is a stockbroker and he's put all the money in the stock market. So they're bankrupted in 1929. They need a country that's willing to host the World cup and pay for the whole thing.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Their options were limited because, keep in mind, they were thinking of it as a World Cup.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

But really, Africa and Asia are mostly colonies. And in the minds of the white men who run FIFA, these white Europeans colonies have no place in a World Cup. Black and brown people are not thought over as possible participants in a World Cup.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Ultimately, they decided on Uruguay.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Uruguay are widely recognized as being the best side in the world, at least if you ignore the British teams who are not going to play or are being difficult about it, at least.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Okay, that's kind of a whole other story. But for all you Arsenal fans wondering, where was England in all of this, let me give you a quick recap. England opted out of FIFA and the first World Cups, in part because of the ongoing professional amateur debate, and also because there's this sense that it's an English game, that they'll keep playing in England. It's kind of like, what do we have to prove we invented this game? Anyway, back to Uruguay, which ironically had deep ties to the UK at this time. UK firms owned a lot of Uruguay's train infrastructure and is credited with importing you guessed it, football, soccer.

[Jonathan Wilson]

So they are the best team in the world, and there's a sense where we should reward them for that. But also, their government was prepared to fund it, and they were prepared to subsidise travel for teams to go to Uruguay.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

We'll put them up in style in Uruguay.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

It's a pretty good deal for FIFA and the competing nations, but it's also not a deal without motives. Uruguay's leaders feel like hosting the World cup in 1930, which coincided with the 100th anniversary of the country's independence, was a great way to flex its nationhood.

[Jonathan Wilson]

And the reason for that is partly that football has been so successful at promoting Uruguay as a nation. When they win the Olympic Gold in 924, they say thousands of dollars of investment in propaganda could not achieve what we have achieved by winning this gold medal. Everybody in Europe knows who we are now. Everybody's talking about us. They know that Uruguay is a country in its own right, that we're not just a province of Argentina.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

So Uruguay had a little bit of a chip on its shoulder. Sandwiched in between Brazil and Argentina, it was ready to shine on the global stage. Of course, the first World cup was a small affair compared to what it's become today. In 1930, only 13 teams, which included the US participated. And of that number, there's only four

[Jonathan Wilson]

European countries make the journey.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Compared to today's sleek national jerseys and

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

tight game schedule, enormous chaos.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

There were game day debates of what ball would be used.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

Uruguay is still building stadiums at night after the World cup has kicked off,

[Rund Abdelfatah]

and there was no strict uniformity to the team's kits. Players wore different colored shirts, and one player even played in a colorful beret.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

But overall, it's considered a success.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

People like it, and Jules Rimet was loving every minute of it. In his diaries, he all of them

[Simon Cooper]

recognized a link, a reciprocal symbol of football. And right away, the ice was broken. Considering the speed with which friendly relationships were formed between these people who'd never laid eyes upon each other before, you might think that they were members of a big household scattered around the world and happy to find each other again at a family reunion.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

So Rame had a pretty rosy outlook on this first World Cup. But at the end of the day, it was still a competition. There were winners and losers, not just between teams, but between countries. And that competition was fueled by national pride. Nowhere was that tension more present than in the 1930 World cup final between the host country, Uruguay, and their longtime rival, Argentina.

[Jonathan Wilson]

They're Rivals outside of football as well. I mean, all kinds of reasons. They're next door to each other. They're. They're both great exporters of meat. There's obvious reasons why neighboring countries will be rivals, but this manifests particularly in football.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Argentina was still pretty sore about having lost the Olympic gold in soccer to Uruguay in the 1920 Olympics. How did their smaller neighbors keep besting them? And Uruguay was tired of Argentina thinking of them as less than. All of that was playing out on the field.

[Jonathan Wilson]

It's taken incredibly seriously in Uruguayan Argentina.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

On a hot day in July 1930, the two teams took the field. In some video footage of the game, you can see the stadium is teeming with fans, mostly men, cheering.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

There's huge crowds.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Jules Verme was in the crowd, too. Recalling the overwhelming noise of the crowd,

[Simon Cooper]

he wrote, the Argentinian fans clamor, intended at times to encourage their team, at others to counter. The Uruguayan cheers combines with the latter to create a hellish din that persists throughout the entire match, rising and falling in balanced alternation, depending on whether one, one team or the other is on the verge of scoring a goal or has just missed one.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Argentina leads the game 2 to 1. At halftime, they've got the momentum, but Uruguay is not ready to admit defeat. In the second half, Uruguay scores three more goals. The fourth and final goal is scored

[Jonathan Wilson]

by a forward called Hector Castro, and he only had one arm. He'd lost the lower part of his right arm in a buzzsaw accident in his early teens.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

The crowd explodes. Uruguay has beat Argentina 4, 2 in the first ever World Cup. Fans quickly start to take the field.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

There's a pitch invasion, and so there's massive chaos. And the Uruguayan players are actually running around the field waving a cup. But it's not the World cup, it's a cup that they'd won in some previous tournament, maybe the Olympics, maybe something else. They already have a cup.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Already have a cup. Jules Rimet is like, wait a second,

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

he's standing there with the World Cup. He's had a special trophy made in Paris. It's a very beautiful cup with Nike, the Greek goddess of victory, with outstretched wings. And he goes onto the field and there's fans everywhere cheering and celebrating. And he pushes his way to the Uruguayan Football Federation president and Rime just kind of shoves the cup into his hands. So that is the presentation of the cup for the first World Cup.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Not exactly the pomp and circumstance you might expect, but that's how it went. And while the end wasn't this huge ceremonial presentation. Jules Rome was still happy with the final.

[Simon Cooper]

Perhaps the Uruguayans attach an exaggerated significance to their triumph, yet they shout their joy with such infectious conviction that in this moment it seems almost to be shared by the entire mass of spectators.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

According to Rime, the victory was one celebrated by all, a testament to the great good of soccer and the World Cup. The reality was a little more complicated.

[Jonathan Wilson]

The sort of riots in Buenos Aires and Uruguayan targets are attacked.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Argentinian protesters throw rocks at Uruguay's embassy.

[Jonathan Wilson]

The Argentinian papers are full of these anti Uruguayan diatribes. Argentina breaks off diplomatic relations. So there is, you know, real consequences.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And still Rime continues to believe in the power of soccer and the World cup to unite instead of divide. He sees the final through a very different lens.

[Simon Cooper]

After all, this inaugural World cup stands as a triumph for the South American community, given that two of its teams, having both reached the very summit of the competition, have shared the honor of contesting the final.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

For him, the World cup is a success and others agree.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

On the whole, people think, yeah, it's worth doing again.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And so four years later, in 1934, the World cup was held again, this time in Benito Mussolini's fascist Italy. That's coming up.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Hi, my name is Ginny and I'm from Connecticut.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And you're listening to Throughline from npr.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

This message comes from Instacart. Everyone prefers things a certain way, like groceries. If you want groceries just how you like them, you gotta try Instacart. They have a new preference picker that lets you pick how ripe or unripe you want your bananas. Shoppers can see your preferences upfront, helping guide their choices. Because when it comes to groceries, the details matter. Instacart get groceries just how you like. This message comes from Capital One, presenting sponsor of the 2026 Tiny Desk Contest. After reviewing thousands of creative entries, the judges crown one artist as this year's Tiny Desk Contest winner. They'll perform their very own Tiny Dess concert at NPR hq, then go on tour this summer with NPR Music. You can come along for the ride as they travel to 10 cities for a series of unforgettable live concerts, all featuring the winner, plus up and coming local artists. With stops in Chicago, Austin, Los Angeles and more, you can experience the authentic talent and intimate performances that make the Tiny Desks so special. Visit npr.org tiny DeskContest to buy tickets and book your next travel with the Capital One Venture X Card. Earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com for details.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Hey Rund here. We want to try something new on the show and we need your help. Have you ever had a question about something in the news or culture? Or wondered why something is the way it is? We're talking sports, religion, science, politics, everyday quirky things. We want to hear it all. Send your questions to throughlinepr.org or call 872-588-8805. And if you're open to us giving you a call back, leave your number two. We might feature your idea in an upcoming episode and thanks.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Part 2 Il Duce's World Cup

[Rund Abdelfatah]

On May 27, 1934, the second World cup began in Italy. All 16 of the teams played in an eight game simultaneous kickoff in cities across the peninsula. In an automatic knockout competition, the host nation, Italy, squares off against the United States. In Rome. Thousands of fans watched from the stands, erupting in cheers. Among them, Benito Mussolini, also known as Il Duce, the leader. He'd been the dictator of Italy for nearly a decade. By this point, Italy defeated the U.S. 7 to 1. Mussolini's plan to bring the World cup to fascist Italy had worked. Standing next to him, World cup founder Jules Rime is less than excited.

[Jonathan Wilson]

There's some photographs of him and the body language is fascinating. You can almost see him sort of cringing away from Mussolini.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Rime had never expected what this second World cup would become. A giant advertisement for fascism.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Mussolini essentially invents sports marketing, or what

[Rund Abdelfatah]

today we might call sports washing, leveraging sports to reshape public perception of your country, especially when human rights abuses are involved. So that meant distracting with glitzy charm.

[Jonathan Wilson]

The tickets are printed on very high quality card, so people will keep them

[Rund Abdelfatah]

as souvenirs and commemorative trinkets, tea trays,

[Jonathan Wilson]

models, things like that branded with the logo of the World cup and the logo of the Fascist Party.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

The World cup stadiums are all placed in cities that boast Fascist architecture. And Mussolini makes sure everyone who wants to get to the games can.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

Italy wants to show itself to the world as a welcoming, successful, modern, organized nation. So fans from the Netherlands and France and Czechoslovakia are given cheap train travel.

[Jonathan Wilson]

And once in Italy, he subsidised travel between host cities.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And if they couldn't make it, no problem.

[Jonathan Wilson]

He arranged live radio broadcasts of every game.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

It's the kind of first World cup as a mass media event.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I don't know how Rime would feel about me saying this, but he and Mussolini had something in common. They both saw soccer as more than a game, as a tool to unite people. But for Mussolini, that unity was a vehicle to sell the world on a new ideology that he had pretty much fascism. That word is thrown around a lot these days. What it meant in practice was extreme nationalism, a stifling of dissent and democracy, and a belief in social hierarchy. It's often associated with Hitler, but it started with Mussolini.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

He's very keen on the World cup because it's a moment where Italy can win. So it shows the virility and strength and glory of the nation. He's going to be there, he's going to claim credit. So at all the games that Italy play, Mussolini is kind of there watching the field obsessively.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Rimet wrote that he often had, quote, the impression during the World cup that the real president of the International Football Federation was Mussolini. So let's backtrack here a little to make sense of how the World cup came to be held in Italy in 1934. In large part, it's because the growing Fascist movement saw what Il Duce saw, that soccer had the power to unite and build a Nation.

[Jonathan Wilson]

So in 1926, the fascists convene this big meeting in Villaveggio, which is a Tuscan resort of stakeholders, I guess we call them in football, and they want to set up a national league. Italy at this point has been unified for depending exactly when unification would have happened. 60 years.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Italy wasn't a unified country until 1861. So the idea of a national Italian identity was relatively new, and the new soccer league would represent that.

[Jonathan Wilson]

So if you can say, well, there's this national Italian league and you can involve people from all over the country, from the south, from the north, from both coasts, then you are helping create this idea of a nation.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

In some ways, this isn't so different from Rimet's vision. Soccer united people. In the case of Italy, though, the goal was to unite Italians and only Italians.

[Jonathan Wilson]

So there's two other things come out of that conference in 1926. So one is if foreign players are banned from 27, eight season onwards, foreign managers are still allowed. So you can still have the educator, but the people being educated are going

[Rund Abdelfatah]

to be Italian, Okay? So only Italian men can play on the teams. No foreigners. Put that detail in your back pocket.

[Jonathan Wilson]

And then the second thing is this sort of ideal that every city should have one club.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

So Italians from all these different cities and even countries are being turned into one country by football. That's what Mussolini is trying to do.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

They start building stadiums, and when the World cup rolls around, they're ready to host. Everyone knew Mussolini was a dictator, including Jules Rimet. Historians tend to explain Rimet's choice to go ahead with the World cup in Italy as apolitical. We all know though being apolitical can itself be a political statement. And a lot of countries still participated in the World cup and a lot of people from around the world came to watch it. Early on in the World cup, people started noticing something about the Italian team.

[Jonathan Wilson]

The football, I think, is Italy with a very physical side.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

In other words, they were willing to play dirty. The Italian team, already one of the favorites to win since Uruguay, England and Scotland do not attend, has a win at any cost mentality. And as the tournament goes on, more and more games turn violent. Other countries start complaining about the refs, speculating about whether they're rigging games for Italy and really for Mussolini.

[Jonathan Wilson]

And I think there was a perception certainly from Spain who they beat in the quarter final and from Austria that referees are indulging them. The referees could be stricter.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Many felt that Mussolini pressured referees to favor Italy and in some way hand them a win. A controversy that continues to surround the 1934 World Cup.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Is that sour grapes? Is it true? It's really difficult to tell. I think the most neutral view we have on it is the Belgian referee from 1930, Jean Langenoux. And he certainly thinks that referees allow themselves to be intimidated by quite hostile home crowds.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

It's hard to know now exactly what happened, but we do know the atmosphere at Italian games could be intimidating because Mussolini's project to unite Italy was working at games.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

You know, the population is encouraged into a frenzy. People chant Mussolini's name and the radio commentary is extremely nationalistic and patriotic. It's all about these 11 players incarnate, the greatness and the glory of Italy. And they are playing for the leader. So very fascist atmosphere.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And it was working on the pitch too. Italy beat out all its competitors to make it to the final against Czechoslovakia. Mussolini and Rime are there for the final match. It's hot and Italy is not doing well. Czechoslovakia is up one nil. And then in the 82nd minute of game time,

[Jonathan Wilson]

Raimundo Orsi, who's the outside left, who scores the equalizer, Raymundo Orsi,

[Rund Abdelfatah]

keeps Italy's championship dreams alive. The funny thing is Orsi was born in Argentina.

[Jonathan Wilson]

He's an aviondo, a returner.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Meaning that Italy has gone back on who they consider Italian. After some prodding from coaches that allowing foreign born players of Italian origin will make the team better, the fascist hierarchy relents.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Italy have decided that foreign players are banned unless you're from South America of Italian descent.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And Orsi's last minute goal ends up being pivotal. The game goes into extra time and Italy scores the final winning goal in the 95th minute, beating Czechoslovakia 2 to 1.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Yeah, I mean, Rime is appalled by it. He really hates the fact that Mussolini has done what he's done, turning the

[Rund Abdelfatah]

World cup into blatant fascist propaganda, essentially rebranding it as Il Duce's cup and winning no less, putting Italy and fascism on top. Giul Dreame congratulates them with the World cup trophy from 1930, a small gold trophy depicting the goddess Nike. But Mussolini had come prepared with his own much bigger trophy called La Copa del Duce, which is awarded to the victorious Italian team. It's more than six times the size of Rimet's trophy. Message delivered. In the years after the World cup, fascism continued to take hold all over Europe. Civil war breaks out in Spain and in 1936, taking a page out of Mussolini's playbook, Hitler's Nazi Germany hosted the Olympics and flex his power. Not content with just that, Hitler also has his sights set on hosting the 1938 World Cup. Mussolini had set the precedent that FIFA was willing to embrace brutal regimes.

[Jonathan Wilson]

It comes down to a straight fight between Nazi Germany or France. And that decision is taken at the FIFA congress in Berlin in the week before the Olympics in Berlin start.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

It was 1936, so two years before the third World cup was set to take place.

[Jonathan Wilson]

So Rime would have been very aware walking around Berlin of what Hitler would have done to the World cup because he was seeing what he was doing to the Olympics.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

A photograph shows Rimet walking with the FIFA delegation through the swastika bedecked streets of Hitler's capital. His French federation had opposed a press campaign to boycott the Nazi Games. But Jonathan Wilson says Rimet himself was wary of letting Hitler do what Mussolini had done, wage a huge PR campaign.

[Jonathan Wilson]

So once he knows what a authoritarian far right leader can do, he takes steps to stop it.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

But according to Simon Cooper, that isn't entirely true. Nazi Germany hosting wasn't off the table, even though by this point Hitler was already violating treaties, remilitarizing and ramping up the persecution of Jewish people. And the decision may have been equally shaped by Rimet's longtime dream for France to host the World Cup. In the end, France did win the bid for 1938. Rimet and FIFA hoped that the World cup would focus less on politics and more on the love of the game. But the politics of the time still bubbled up in France.

[Jonathan Wilson]

In 38, you have anti fascist protests

[Rund Abdelfatah]

and when the victorious Italian team plays against France in the quarterfinals, the Italian team responds with their own.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Italy's normal change kit would be white, but on this occasion they wear black.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

They play the fascist anthem and proudly jut their arms out in a Roman salute.

[Jonathan Wilson]

And that clearly is making a fascist point.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Italy beats France and is once again crowned the World Championship. The 1938 World cup would be the last one for a while. When World War II erupted the following year, violence engulfed most of Europe and the tournament was suspended. As a result, Italy remained the de facto champion for 12 more years. During this time, legend has it that the president of the Italian Football Federation hid the Jules remade trophy in his room, afraid it would be otherwise stolen. After the war, the world was radically changed. A United nations was formed with the goal of maintaining international peace, the same dream Rimet had all those years ago. And in 1950, Rime helped revive the World Cup. He never gave up on the idea that soccer could unite people, even though it also ran the risk of. Of not only being shaped by politics, but shaping politics too. And today we're still grappling with what that means.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Yeah, I mean, I think you look at this World cup coming up and your natural instinct, the natural instinct is to say this is the most politicized World cup there's ever been. And I think that's only partially true. I think that World cup has always been politicized. I think it's useful to be reminded that this is nothing new.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Coming up, a conversation about where this year's World cup fits into the tournament's hundred year history.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

Hey, this is Travis Davenport from San Diego, California. You're listening to Throughline on npr.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

This message comes from Instacart. Let's talk groceries. Specifically your groceries. With Instacart, you want your groceries just the way you like them, right? Well, the Instacart app lets you do just that. They have a new preference picker that lets you pick how ripe or unripe you want your bananas. Shoppers can see your preferences up front, helping guide their choices. Instacart get groceries just how you like. This message comes from Capital One, presenting sponsor of the 2026 Tiny Desk Contest. After reviewing thousands of creative entries, the judges will crown one artist as this year's Tiny Dess contest winner. They'll perform their very own Tiny Dess concert at NPR hq, then go on tour this summer with NPR Music. You can come along for the ride as they travel to 10 cities for a series of unforgettable live concerts, all featuring the winner plus up and coming local artists. With stops in Chicago, Austin, Los Angeles and more, you can experience the authentic talent and intimate performances that make the tiny desks so special. Visit npr.org tinydeskcontest to buy tickets. And while you're out, enjoy your night with the Capital One Saver card. Earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining and entertainment. Capital One what's in your wallet? Terms apply [e-mail].

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Part 3 why we keep watching in 1950, with so many countries still reeling from the devastating impacts of World War II, Jules Rimet, then president of FIFA and the founder of the World cup, revived the tournament. It had been dormant for 12 years by that point. Brazil hosted. Fans were excited to cheer for their teams. The atmosphere was electric and there was a lot of political drama surrounding it. Germany was barred from participating.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

There's a punishment for war, and so the German players very unfairly, were seen as more than just soccer players. They were seen as representatives of this German might. And often in football, you're not just playing against a team, you're playing against something much bigger than that. You feel you're playing against the enemy tribe, the enemy country, in an enmity or a rivalry that transcends soccer.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

It's almost like recreating war or battle

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

on the pitch, but in a much safer, more pleasant way.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Most of the countries behind the Iron Curtain, like the Soviet Union, opted not to take part. Uruguay, the first country to ever host the World cup, wins it all, and the trophy was officially renamed the Jules Rimet Trophy. And as the world turned more towards ideals of diplomacy and decolonization, the nationalism that had taken on a dark tone in those early World Cups was rebranded

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

in Europe in particular after World War II, we found ways to be nationalistic, to cheer for our country, to beat other countries that don't involve bloodshed. And so channeling those feelings into soccer was a brilliant solution.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Even West Germany found a way to express national pride in 1954.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

West Germany has been readmitted after being in disgrace after the war. And in 1954, in its very first post war World cup in Switzerland, it wins. This pariah nation wins the final in the mud of Berne against the great Hungarians, and the West German team goes back to Germany by train, and at every station they're greeted by cheering, huge crowds. Much of the nation has listened to the game on radio, watched in the very few television sets that existed in West Germany then and even in communist East Germany, lots of people were listening on the radio and supporting the German team. And this is the moment when the Germans, for the first time since we World War II, they're allowed to express nationalism, a love of country. They're allowed to, for the first time, kind of sing the anthem, which is problematic because some of them sing the old wrong anthem with the forbidden words, Deutschland, Deutschland, Dubai, allers, and to cheer for their country, to feel proud of feeling German for the first time since World War II. And this is a very kind of important and difficult moment. And the phrase that Germans use about that World Cup 1954, is we are someone again.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I guess that makes me wonder what you see as the sort of function of nationalism is part of, you know, the representation and in the modern era of having nations from all around the world. Is that part of the point? Even if they're never going to win the World cup, is there something about just being able to express nationalism in this sort of safe or defanged space Important?

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

Well, I'd say two things. One is, for most countries, winning the World cup just isn't an issue. There's only about five or six countries that even really dream of winning the World Cup. So at this World cup, for a country like Jordan or Uzbekistan or Canada, you're not there to win. You're there to have a great time, to have a Cinderella experience, maybe to beat a big. To create a moment that has people talking, to have your whole nation at work, at school, at the bus stop, on social media, obsessing about it all together, to unite a nation in a way that nowadays we're all on our own devices, watching our own continent. World cup, everyone's watching the same thing. So that's part of what a World Cup's about. Winning is. It's only relevant to a very few teams. And the other thing is that, yes, it's about nationalism in celebrating your nation, hoping your nation wins. But I know this sounds romantic, but actually it's also an international festival where we all appreciate great football. And if a Cameroonian or a Brazilian does something amazing, the whole world will be talking about it. People actually really want to meet people from other countries and, you know, dance on the streets together and drink in bars together and swap scarves and shirts. So it's really also a very kind of cosmopolitan festival. You celebrate your own nation, but you also celebrate the kind of the globe, everyone being there. It wouldn't be the same World cup if Cameroon and Japan and South Africa and Brazil weren't there. That's all part of it. You want them there. And also, almost everyone understands the thing about soccer is it doesn't really matter.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

There's something very beautiful about what you're describing, but I have to stop for a second and confront the reality of where it feels like we are right now, because that all feels extremely optimistic. And I think the feeling around the World cup this year is confusing. I think for a lot of people you have the us, Canada and Mexico co hosting the World Cup. There have been tensions between those countries. And on top of that, there's so much going on politically, wars being fought and waged by the U.S. one of the hosts. If the World cup is this space, in theory, of bringing people together and kind of a United nations, what does this year's tournament reveal? What does it represent?

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

It's almost always true that in a World cup you have the ugliness of what's happening off the field. Politics, repression, the potential of ice raiding. For example, Mexican Americans watching a game together in Mexican shirts of World cup visitors being denied visas or being locked up of these outrageous prices which have never been charged at a World cup before, which are making this a World cup only for rich people. So all that ugliness is there and we journalists are writing about it and we should, and that's part of the story. And then when the World cup kicks off, you get the beauty, you get the beauty on the field, these amazing moments, these heartbreaking last minute goals. Some soccer player you've never heard of going through six men and scoring and this stuff that you remember forever, that we all saw when we were 8 years old and we still have in our heads. And that will live for decades. And the experience of sharing that with the people you're watching with is also magical. So World Cups are this ugliness and the beauty at the same time.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

In his own life, the World cup has encompassed so many feelings. Simon has actually attended the last nine World Cups. That's 36 years worth.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

I caught the bug when I was eight years old in 1978, watching on TV, everyone remembers their first World cup and I was living in the Netherlands. I'm a Holland fan, I'm not Dutch, but I grew up there. That's my soccer. In 1978, the Netherlands reached the World cup final, took Argentina, the host, extra time. So for an eight year old, this is something you don't quickly forget.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Was there a single moment when you realized that football, soccer for our American listeners, that it was about Much more than just a game.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

I still have in my head that when Holland scored in the 78 final, so I'm this eight year old kid, they score this late equalizer, and I hear in my mind this noise of cheering coming up from the whole neighborhood, from the neighboring houses. There was this kind of communal sound. And I think looking back, I realized then that soccer is much more than a game because it can mobilize a whole country. It's something where in a country like the Netherlands or England, really the whole country is emotionally involved and it ties people together like nothing else. And so it becomes this force for nationalism, it becomes a force for thinking about what kind of country are we, what is our team, what is our country? Who do we hate, who is the enemy, who is the rival? And so since then, I think I've been thinking about soccer as more than soccer. I mean, I love the game, but it's much more than just a game.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

It always has been, right? Leaders have used it as an opportunity to rebrand to sportswash for a century now. So I asked Simon, what makes this World cup the same or different in his mind?

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

One of the oddities of Trump is that he's not really sportswashing, because sportswashing is what Russia, Qatar, the Argentinian generals in 1978 did, where you present yourself as nicer and cuddlier and your nation as friendlier and welcoming, more welcoming than it really is. Russia in 2018, for the first time pretty much in modern history, let people with World cup tickets in without a visa. It was the easiest time in history to travel around Russia.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Oh, fascinating.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

In Mussolini's Italy, they gave special discount rates to World cup visitors. So you had a great experience, you travel around cheap. Now, Trump is not sportswashing in that he's not pretending to be nicer and kinder than he really is. He's overtly brutal and unfriendly to the world. He's not pretending anything different. So although what's happening in the US on many levels is outrageous, the wars they're fighting, the use of ice internally, they're not sportswashing in that they're not trying to hide it. In fact, Trump seems to me very proud of these things that he's doing. And the US Is not trying to say, oh, we're a country that wants lots of visitors, we'll make it easy for you to get visas, we'll make it cheap for you to travel around.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

That's a really interesting point and actually related to that you mentioned ice. Immigration is obviously One of the key issues in the US right now, but really around the world. And there's this kind of contradiction, right, between the policies of many countries to try and keep immigrants from coming in right now. And when it comes to soccer, football, you have so many national teams that are shaped and reflective of their immigrant communities. France, England, the U.S. right. So many of them depend on immigrants. What does it mean then to cheer for immigrants on the field who make up your team at the World Cup? But then how do you square that with this increased nationalism, the increased anti immigrant sentiment worldwide?

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

I mean, it's very double edged for a lot of people. And so some are not happy that their team is full of people of immigrants origin. I live in France. France is a brilliant team. They've reached four of the last seven finals of World Cups. They've won two World Cups since 98. Brilliant side, very largely black and brown players from the suburbs of the big cities, like Kylian Mbappe, the captain, whose father was an immigrant from Cameroon, whose mother is of Algerian origin, born in France. And a lot of French people say, I don't like it that our team has so many non white players. And the biggest party in France, quite likely to win the presidential elections next year is the far right, anti immigrant Rassa Le Mans national, which has been very critical, often of the black players in the team. So when you see on TV those 11 young men in their plastic shirts, often of different colors, representing your nation at that moment, they're kind of the nation made flesh. It's a very tangible symbol of who are we? What is the US or France or Argentina or Jordan. And you say, that's what we are. It can be a way to debate what your country is, what your country should be. So there's all sorts of debates that a team can provoke.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And this is the double edged sword of nationalism. Right. I mean, it can both be a unifying force for a country and it can also be weaponized. Right?

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

Yeah.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

These symbols, like the flag, all of these things, they become very loaded.

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

Yeah. And it becomes a minefield.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

You know, given all of this, is there anything that might surprise you in this World Cup?

[Various Call-in Listeners and Experts]

Soccer is a place that gets used by dictators, it gets used by dissidents, it gets used for peace, it gets used for internationalism, and it gets used to excite people. Internationalism, it's all those things. And soccer is eminently political in all these ways. And people who say soccer has nothing to do with politics haven't been paying attention. I think that this World cup will be a World cup of protests will be Americans against Americans in the sense that all the host cities in the United States are Democratic voting like almost all cities in the US Are. And Donald Trump is very unpopular and I suspect that there'll be a lot of anti Trump singing, chanting, people wearing T shirts. So I think the World cup will be a very contested space. Much more at this World cup than in any recent World Cups of anti Trump America kind of making its voice heard partly just because of which places this World cup is taking place in in the US But I think people will be surprised by the joy because once the soccer starts, it becomes joyous when the World cup kicks off. You get the beauty, you get the beauty on the field. These amazing moments, these hearts breaking, last minute goals, some soccer player you've never heard of going through six men and scoring and this the stuff that you remember forever that we all saw when we were eight years old. That doesn't eliminate the bad stuff. And we should be talking and writing about the bad stuff. But remember the joy too.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

That's it for this week's show. I'm Rund Abdelfatah Throughline was created by me and Ramtin Adablouei. This episode was produced by me and Sarah Wyman, Casey Miner, Christina Kim, Devin Kadayama, Kiana Mojadam, Irene Noguchi, Liana Simstrom,

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Julia Redpath, Skyler Swenson.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Thank you to Michael Lopetron, Johannes Dergi, Cheyenne Butler, Yolanda Sangweni and Tommy Evans. Fact checking for this episode was done by Kevin Voelkel. This episode was mixed by Robert Rodriguez. Music for this episode was composed by Ramtin and his band Drop Electric, which includes Naveed, Marvi, Sho Fujiwara, Anya Mizani. And finally, if you have an idea or liked something you heard on the show, please write us@the throughlinepr.org and if you're open to us giving you a call back, leave your number too. We might feature your idea in an upcoming episode. Also, make sure to follow us on Apple, Spotify or the NPR app. That way you'll never miss an episode. Thanks for listening.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer 2]

This message comes from Angie. Tackling a Home project Angie can connect you with pros who do such a good job, you might ask them to be your kid's godfather. Don't do that. Just trust them to get the job done. Find a pro for your projects at angie. Com. That's a n G I dot com.