The Avery Trufelman Interview with Throwing Fits

Summary

---

Throwing Fits — The Avery Trufelman Interview

Release Date: October 20, 2025
Guest: Avery Trufelman, host and producer of Articles of Interest
Theme: The deep entwinement of military, outdoors gear, and fashion, and the complexities of American influence in global dress and style.

---

Episode Overview

In this lively, sarcastic, and in-depth conversation, the Throwing Fits hosts welcome back Avery Trufelman to discuss the upcoming season of her podcast Articles of Interest. The new season focuses on the intersection of military and outdoor clothing, exposing the surprising, often uncomfortable links between the U.S. military, the outdoor industry, and the evolution of “American” style. Avery breaks down everything from performative masculinity in men’s fashion to Stolen Valor, the economics of Gore-Tex underwear, and why America’s legacy might be its blue jeans.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Avery’s New Season: Military x Outdoors x Fashion

• Main Topic: The season investigates “the intersection of the military and the outdoor industry, and they are deeply, deeply, deeply interwoven.” (15:11)
• Surprising Discovery: While the military’s influence on fashion is a known talking point, Avery found that the outdoor industry’s connection is just as central—and often hidden—in menswear and technical apparel.
• Scope: From the 1800s till now, with emphasis on how clothing technology, aesthetics, and American geopolitics are entwined.

2. The Research Process and Journey

• Avery wears many hats—writer, producer, interviewer, and editor—for her own podcast:

  “I would rather just put that pressure on myself than someone.” (01:27)

• She went to eclectic places, including military costume warehouses, military contracting trade shows (“all these tanks and guns… I cried every night”), zipper factories, and the actual US military’s fashion department—uncovering both the inspiration and pragmatics of clothing design in these environments.

3. Military Surplus, Stolen Valor & Style

• On wearing military pieces:

  “As a civilian who has no skin in the game, think it’s great… I’m appropriating both Pakistani and military culture right now. I’m the problem.” (51:48)

• Soldier’s perspective: Some see civilians wearing military garments as “boot” (a try-hard, hardo), but generally, civilians are encouraged to enjoy the style, as long as they don’t pretend to be soldiers.
• She recalls that in the 1970s, military surplus became a symbol of protest and solidarity—something potentially relevant again.

4. Authenticity, Performance, and Masculinity

• The appeal of military/outdoor gear is about “performing masculinity” and practicality—but also status and aligning oneself with certain ideals (intelligence, sacrifice, individuality).
• The hosts and Avery debate performative “gearing up” as central to Brooklyn cool, outdoorsy brags, and even protest movements.

5. American Clothes as Global Empire Legacy

• Avery posits that American clothes (jeans, field jackets, Ivy style) might become the lasting footprint of American cultural dominance—comparable to language spread by past empires:

  “The lingering effect of the American empire will be… everybody wears American clothes all over the world.” (19:00)

6. The Military-Industrial/Fashion Complex

• Manufacturing: U.S. Barry Amendment requires military gear to be American-made, sustaining some domestic textile jobs.
• Commercial crossovers: Outdoor brands like Outdoor Research, Arc’teryx LEAF, Danner, Gore-Tex, etc., are actively supplying both Special Forces and civilians—sometimes hiding their military contracts to preserve granola/progressive branding, which Avery criticizes.
• The “cool” aesthetics of Special Forces trickle down as fashion, with civilians coveting the same gear.
• Sometimes, military clients are described as “shitty”—they pay less and contracts are volatile.

7. Innovation: The True Military Inheritance

• The military and outdoor industry co-invented “layering,” fundamentally shaping modern clothing systems (76:11).
• American military first used systematic scientific testing to develop functional clothing, leading others to follow.

8. Existential Questions & Contradictions

• Avery wrestles with her own stance on militarism and fashion, landing at “awe… not gratitude” for how much our infrastructure, tech, and style are enmeshed with military history:

  “If you don’t come to it with some sort of reverence, you’re not going to understand how grand it actually is.” (50:49)

• The season is steeped in the dilemma: “Do we need war? … I want to protect [the soldiers], but I don’t want to have to need [the war]…” (48:27)

---

Memorable Moments & Quotes

Fit Checks, DMs, and Origin Stories

• Tyler, the Creator sent Avery Golf le Fleur socks after listening to her Ivy season.

  "He slid into my DMs, and he sent this to me.” (06:29)

• Pakistani camo shirt, vintage Banana Republic safari shorts, old Belgian loafers—Avery brings up how these all stem from military or exploration origin stories.

Military Fashion Department

• On the US military’s fashion department:

  “It looks like a fashion school… They all went to fashion school.” (24:31)

Military Conventions: A Surreal Experience

• “I got to play with guns. The tanks… unmanned AI like, drones. I cried every night it was horrifying.” (27:00)
• Reflecting on industry hypocrisy:

  “Everybody’s there. Your phone carrier was there. The airline you fly on is there… everybody’s in a piece of this.” (41:12)

Layering Is Military Tech

• “The military invented layers. Holy–…They hired Eddie Bauer, Leon Leonwood Bean…” (76:11)

Special Forces Become the Influencers

• “The funny thing is there's like, this fashion cycle because everybody in the military is like, oh, my God, the special ops guys, they're so cool… They're the influencers.” (93:22)

On Multicam Camouflage and Scorpion

• “So I asked the folks at the government, I was like, so what do you think of multicam? And they were like, well, you know, we helped make that.” (96:32)

“Boot” Culture and Stolen Valor

• Civilians in camo: “There’s a term for it in the military which is boot, which is if you're, like, really gung ho about the military stuff… they're like, don't be boot.” (55:07)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:38 – 01:45 — Avery on being a one-woman podcast army, perfectionism, delegation.
• 02:07 – 10:02 — Deep-dive “fit check,” including camo shirt origin, Tyler, the Creator anecdote, Belgian shoes.
• 13:28 – 15:00 — Why Avery avoids Instagram & the transactional side of fashion media.
• 15:11 – 20:09 — Why military and outdoors gear are so deeply entwined—setting up the new Articles of Interest season.
• 21:13 – 22:37 — The “three archetypes” of American menswear (Ivy, military, cowboy) and their symbolic meanings.
• 24:10 – 26:55 — The U.S. military’s fashion department, Annette Lafleur, and performance-driven design.
• 27:00 – 35:23 — Military trade shows, Special Forces as trendsetters, the economics and challenges of U.S. textile production, factory visits.
• 39:59 – 41:34 — Military symbols, “chicks dig it” factor, and why companies hide military contracts.
• 48:27 – 50:44 — Wrestling with the ethics of military fashion, soldier/veteran perspectives.
• 56:07 – 57:28 — The history and power of military surplus as protest wear and its potential comeback.
• 58:12 – 62:21 — Why guys “gear up”: gadgets, dominance over nature, the American shopping/kitting-out impulse, and psychology behind outdoor-ready fits.
• 76:11 – 77:59 — The invention of “layering” by military-outdoor collaboration and its modern relevance.
• 91:48 – 98:01 — Multicam, Cry Precision, Scorpion camo, and the murky world of military R&D and IP ownership.
• 109:02 – 115:18 — State of podcasting: narrative decline, doing it solo, pride vs. legacy, Rolling Stone’s all-time podcast list.
• 116:17 – 109:34 — Plugs: The new season of Articles of Interest, ways for listeners to support Avery, and how to follow.

---

Notable Quotes

• “The lingering effect of the American empire will be… everybody wears American clothes all over the world.” (19:00, Avery)
• “The military invented layers.” (76:11, Avery)
• “The cool thing is, like, even though there's a designer, at the end of the day, if a general wants it—If a high ranking general wants it, it still happens.” (88:17, Avery)
• “It did make me understand… I think it's okay to like, make jackets for, for soldiers. I really think that's fine. And I really don't want them to get hurt and I really want them to be safe.” (39:40, Avery)
• “If you don't come to it with some sort of reverence, you're not going to understand how grand it actually is.” (50:49, Host)

---

Tone & Style

The conversation is quick-witted, self-aware, and both critical and affectionate about fashion’s relationship to history, politics, and masculinity. Avery is thoughtful, curious, and open about intellectual dilemmas, while the hosts keep things lively, teasing each other and their guest with running jokes (including “fit checks,” “stolen valor,” and “boot” culture).

---

Further Information (Plugs & How to Support)

• Articles of Interest's new season debuts October 22 (2025), focusing on gear, the military, and the outdoors.
• Follow Avery on Substack or her website (as she remains off Instagram, but responds personally to emails from listeners).
• “Venmo Avery” jokes—listeners are encouraged to support independent journalism.

---

Recommended for anyone interested in:

• Fashion history, military gear, and outdoor technical clothing
• The politics and ethics of design & production
• The subtle, sticky ways American identity is exported worldwide

---

(Ads, intro, and outro excluded from this summary per instruction)

Transcript

[A]

Our guest this week is geared up and about to teach you why Americans don't have health care. Last season, her podcast went deep on American Ivy and had a whole cohort of listeners dressing like grandpas and substitute teachers. This season, she's getting the full recon in outdoors and military clothes. And I'm not talking green berets. I need all my dead bird enthusiasts to hop out the shower, take your jackets off and sit your gorp ass down to listen. Because this pod hostess with the most is has a brand new season about to invade your ears like America just discovered oil in your brain. Premiering October 22nd, we are joined by our old friend to chat performative males, lethal swag and menswear Stolen Valor. Host and producer of the podcast articles of interest, Avery Trufelman. Avery, how's it going?

[B]

It's going well. How's your fashion? I wanted to ask you how your fashion week is.

[A]

Exhausting. It's over, right? It's over. We're done. It's October.

[C]

It's going to be super old news. We're in. It's fall right now. It's beautiful. There's a crisp in the air.

[B]

October.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Happy Halloween.

[B]

Wait, right? Are we pretending it's October?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

If you want.

[C]

If you want to.

[B]

The series is out and I finished it.

[C]

I'm so congrats on finishing your homework.

[B]

So much. It's awesome to be done.

[A]

Are you pulling, like all nighters wrapping this up?

[B]

Yeah. It's so rough.

[A]

What do you do? Everything. Like soup to nuts.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Why do you do that to yourself?

[A]

You're greedy.

[C]

You should delegate.

[A]

You want all the money for yourself.

[C]

You should have learned from your, you know, your new subjects. You delegate, you give orders, and you have grunts do the work for you.

[B]

But then you have to pay the grunts.

[A]

And then it's about money.

[B]

And then you have to be like a bossy person who's like. And I'm so like, no. Can you move it over a little bit? Can you? Yeah. Like, when I work, and I love working with people, but I do find myself being micromanaging. I would rather just put that pressure on myself than someone.

[C]

That's fair.

[B]

I know how I am.

[A]

If you want it done right, just do it yourself.

[B]

Yeah, kind of.

[A]

Who hurt you?

[B]

I'm an artist.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

You're just tortured in general. Well, we're so happy to have you back either way.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

Tortured, sleepy.

[B]

And it's so nice to have the series done and have October be here.

[C]

So Congrats again. The first thing you want to do, Avery, as always, is a little fit.

[A]

Check.

[C]

You came through. It seems you wore the tea. You wore the band tee to the concert.

[B]

I was gonna make that metaphor.

[C]

Thank you for your service.

[B]

Yeah, it's actually a Pakistani. It's very cool shirt. I was listening because I am. Okay. It's October.

[A]

And so a month ago.

[B]

A month ago, I was listening to tape for episode five, which is now finished. But back when I was listening to episode five, I went to Eastern Costume, which is a costume warehouse in LA where they lend out all the costumes for, like, all the war movies. And it ended up being a great place to reference a lot of the camouflage and a lot of the. There, like, aren't a lot of war archive, like, war. War costume archives where you can look at all the stuff side by side, like, private industry stuff and public stuff. And this costume warehouse ended up being a great resource. And they have this wall of camo of every country's camo in, like, alphabetical order. It's the coolest thing. And I loved this one. I was like, whoa, what's this? And it was. It's Pakistan.

[C]

Is it open to the public? Can you, like, go? Or do you have to, like, be a journalist and put in a record request?

[B]

I mean, they're pretty chill. You could, like, call them. I mean, I brought.

[A]

I had just pretty chill for, you know, military archive.

[B]

Yeah, they're.

[C]

They're great for an armory of camo.

[B]

I brought the. I brought Kyle Fitzgibbons, who's the head of design for Buck Mason, because I just interviewed them, and I was like, I'm going to this military costume warehouse. Do you want to come? And I was like, can I bring the designer for Buck Mason? And they were like, sure. So I think now Buck Mason, like, brings all their designers.

[C]

Oh, it's like, reference stuff.

[B]

To reference their stuff.

[A]

Stolen valor.

[C]

Yeah, straight up.

[B]

Oh, well, Buck Mason is a huge military eclipse.

[A]

We're going to talk about it.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, that's like. Yeah, that's a huge. That's a huge.

[C]

Maybe. Maybe.

[A]

And so they buy some ads for this episode.

[B]

It's like. It's a massive thing. But, yeah, basically I was like, this is an amazing shirt.

[A]

And this year, number one of. Of A3Z, all 186.

[C]

Do you want it as a gift?

[B]

Yeah. Well, they have so much stuff. And so he was like, just take it.

[A]

To the victor go the spoils. True.

[B]

So I was. And I haven't worn it since I Was like, oh, just oh, wait for the guys tomorrow. I'm really embarrassed that I'm wearing.

[A]

No, it's. No, you showed. You showed up looking like you're about to go to war. What about.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

The shorts on this unseasonably warm October day.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's so warm out. Well, the shorts are also kind of apropos.

[A]

They are.

[B]

The shorts are old Banana Republic from like the 80s safari collection. And well, it was after they were bought by the Gap, but before they were bought by the Gap, they were bought by the gap in 83.

[A]

Yeah, we'll fact check that.

[C]

It's cool.

[B]

Yeah. 83. Well, I should know this because they're part of the episode I interview. They're part of the series. I interview Patricia. Patricia Ziegler, one of the founders of Banana Republic because they started as a military surplus store.

[A]

And is that why it's called Banana Republic?

[C]

Because of, like, ever get over the name?

[A]

Because it is.

[B]

They were founded by and for Banana Republics. That. That was their. It was like a joke. It was founded by a painter and a writer and they were like, sensitive.

[A]

Yeah. Pre woke.

[B]

It's. It's a boomer humor, you know, they're like, it's from the old, young, struggling republics who are selling the surplus from the last dictator.

[A]

I have a new brand. It's called the Iran. The Iran Contra, you know, collection.

[B]

No, it's collection not woke now.

[A]

Haha.

[B]

It's like, man, to live in the 70s.

[A]

Like, you can say whatever you wanted.

[B]

Truly. And that like Don Fiser walked in and was like, this is such a hoot, you guys. I love this.

[C]

Yeah, let's run with that. What's wrong with the joke name? That'll offend a lot of people in 50 years.

[A]

Early 80s vintage banana.

[B]

And it's. It's so great. I love these shorts. I did kind of buy them as a joke and they're great.

[A]

And then socks and shoes again, kind of sticking with the military color scheme. At least I am.

[B]

I'm kind of in a costume, but I also do genuinely dress like this. And then the socks are Tyler. The creator's brand. Golf La Fleur.

[C]

Oh, you staying young and cool and hip and locked in with the scene.

[B]

Can I brag for a second?

[C]

Sure.

[B]

He sent these to me.

[C]

Wow. He's a. He's a fan. Is he a fan?

[A]

He's gotta be after.

[B]

After Ivy. Wow.

[C]

He.

[A]

Did he. Did you switch up his swag? Was he like. He's so. He's a listener. Obviously.

[B]

He slid into my DMs, and he sent this to me.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Very cool.

[C]

What. What social platform?

[A]

Dms.

[C]

Twitter.

[B]

Back when it was Twitter. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, it was.

[C]

I was like, damn, you're so. You're so cool, dude.

[A]

What are the loafers?

[B]

I was. I was.

[C]

You are.

[B]

Back then.

[C]

That's why you're here.

[B]

I'm trying to get it back. That's why. That's why I'm staying up all night. The loafers are the old discontinued Belgian shoes.

[A]

Belgians with the heel. Lawrence's favorite Belgian.

[C]

No, no. There's a. I'm. I'm. There's. You know how they have, like, the Mr. Casual in the heel version? I don't like the. That loafer, but this is.

[B]

You don't like the heels?

[C]

I don't like the heel on the. With the bow, like, that style. Yeah, that needs to be just a flat. This is. We don't need to talk about this.

[B]

No, no, no. I love. I love the tasseled version.

[C]

This is.

[B]

But it makes me, like, sona non grata when I go into the Belgian store, because I try to, like, pretend I'm like, hello, I am a customer like everybody else. Right. I would like to also get these fixed. And it's so obvious that I, like, bought these on ebay, because they don't.

[C]

We haven't made these in years.

[A]

I bought these from Bernie Madoff.

[B]

Yeah. It's so they're like, why do you have these? And they. They refused to fix them because, really, they were like, you should throw these out. They said, these aren't done. They've lived a good life. And then I just throw these out.

[A]

And buy a new pair. What can I do to get you in a new pair of Belgian. Say, what the fuck? Why don't just refurbish them? Yeah.

[B]

And so I brought them to my shoe guys, and they fixed.

[C]

No, I was gonna say they're shout out Belgian shoes. It's extortion. If you bring. They always say, bring it back to us. Don't trust anyone else. A good cobbler in New York who's been working on Belgians for New Yorkers for years can do it cheaper and just as good fy for everyone at home.

[B]

And you know, Belgians hate Belgian shoes. The actual people, actual Belgians hate Belgian shoes.

[A]

What's Belgian camo look like?

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. That's a great question.

[A]

Get into it.

[B]

I should. I spent a lot of time in Belgium last year.

[A]

What?

[B]

Okay, My next Project is a book about the Antwerp Six.

[A]

Oh, Heard of them?

[B]

Oh, come on. Andrew Mulemeester Van Noten.

[A]

Easy.

[B]

Walter Van Beerendonk. Marina Yee.

[C]

There it is.

[B]

Dirk Bickenberg. Dirk Vansana.

[C]

People always love to say Raph, but Raph is not.

[B]

No. And he was the next generation.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

And then Martin. Margiela was a classmate and technically counts.

[C]

Technically counts as part of the six. We'll read about it in the book. Yeah, we'll read about it.

[B]

You'll read about it.

[A]

Six plus one.

[C]

When's the book out? Do you know?

[A]

Do you have an idea?

[B]

When I get edits back to my editor.

[A]

We'll get you back on for that one. What about the little watch?

[B]

Oh, this is the same watch I had last time. My old Movado. But it was funny. I remember last time I was like, it's my one watch and I never need another. And I'm like, maybe I'm ready for a new watch.

[A]

What are you thinking?

[B]

I don't know. I was actually gonna ask you guys for help.

[C]

Big, giant Rolex yacht master. For sure.

[A]

A fat ceramic ap, A white sir.

[C]

Or white or blue ceramic AP would hit so hard.

[B]

What even. What's that?

[A]

I don't watch.

[C]

You gotta ask. You probably can't afford it. My friends. Sorry.

[A]

Yeah. What about these rings?

[B]

I got engaged. Congrats. Thank you. This is my fiance's grandmother's great grandmother's ring. It's just like an old filigree ring. I think it's very beautiful. This is from Deton Eller camp. This is from Sapir Bakar. And this is from old jewelry. And it's Zoe Moan.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's. That's everything.

[A]

Panties.

[B]

Arc.

[A]

Arc Teryx.

[B]

Arc.

[C]

We're gonna need you to say the panties into the mic because that's. Okay. There it is.

[A]

Arc Teryx underwear. I wear Arcterics underwear.

[B]

Do they mistake?

[C]

It's Gore Tex.

[A]

Yeah. No, it's an adult diaper. It's Gore Tex on the inside.

[C]

A lot of good sweat on that.

[B]

Awesome. That would be so good for, like, periods.

[C]

Taped seams sealed, locked for freshness, you know?

[A]

Yeah, it's like a good Ziploc bag.

[B]

That would be fantastic. It actually so good.

[A]

I don't know. All right, you're sipping on a topo Chico and a. Look, a big old espresso. Yeah, it's a double. Yeah, a Dopio. Burning the midnight oil.

[B]

It was.

[A]

All right, Avery, let's get into the Meat and potatoes are the only podcast the only podcast matters. It's okay.

[B]

It's true. No, it's true. The only consistent podcast that matters.

[A]

The only weekly podcast matters.

[C]

Damn.

[A]

We haven't pot. We haven't.

[B]

I'll allow it.

[A]

We haven't potted together since early 2023. In all that time, why have you still not gotten on Instagram?

[C]

What's wrong with you, dude?

[B]

Do you recommend Instagram? You actually think it makes your life better?

[C]

What are you doing? Business.

[A]

What are you doing with like these six hours of your day that could.

[B]

Be spent just scrolling the human mind finds ways to. Around.

[A]

What do you. How do you around without. Without social media, without IG, everything is turning into IG.

[B]

Like, I'm on YouTube and it's turning into IG.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Stack and it's turning into IG. Like, everything is.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Feeding me.

[A]

Everything is mindless garbage. Yeah.

[B]

You can just get it from all angles everywhere. Do you.

[A]

Have you ever felt the urge or the need to get on there maybe to like, promote a project?

[B]

I had it one.

[A]

Keep up.

[B]

I had it for like two years and I. I found myself being like, hi, guys. And I was like, yeah, okay. No. And I started like being at events and being like, I love being at this event as like, I can't.

[C]

Yeah. But the self promotional aspect, when you have a new project like you do, it helps to hit grid in my experience.

[B]

Yeah, probably. It probably does. It probably. You're right.

[A]

But it's already working.

[B]

You're absolutely right.

[A]

Whatever you're doing is working. But you felt the brain rot on set early on.

[B]

Yeah. And I also think. I don't know. I just don't. It's. I. I don't know. It's. It's like the having to. Especially in the fashion. You know how it is. It's like your outfit gets analyzed, your look gets analyzed. It's.

[C]

You're throwing to the mask.

[A]

Looks get commented on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your weight is dissected.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You want that.

[B]

You know what?

[C]

As a woman. You know what?

[B]

Let's go for it.

[A]

Yeah, I'm.

[B]

I'm comfortable. Does it sound really hard on myself?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

All these years, think of how much.

[A]

More therapy you could be doing.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. I'm strong enough. Yeah.

[C]

Also, not to gas you, but your approval rating is like higher, I feel like, than the average person that exists in this space. So if anything, I feel like that's just a lot of glazing that would go down versus critical analysis of your physical features.

[B]

I don't know. The Internet's Never stopped anybody. And also, like, you know how everyone.

[A]

You don't want this glazing 24. 7.

[B]

You can't. You can't repeat an outfit. You can't. Like. I don't know. You can't, like, sure, it's. It's dumb. It's dumb stuff.

[A]

Has it ever. I mean, I would say that you're one, 1,000 times more a journalist than anyone than most people in the fashion industry, especially those that call themselves. Well, I guess now everyone's just comfortable calling themselves a content creator. Has it ever worked against you, though, where you're like, hey, I want to go to this thing, or, I want access to this thing. And, like, well, you're not going to, like, post it or tag us. Like, why would we invite you? Or are you above that?

[B]

It's definitely been. Yeah, 100%.

[A]

Calm out. Tory Burcher.

[C]

I think we're. I think we're calling her out right now is what's happening.

[A]

No, no, no. I want to know who the brands are that are like, oh, you're not on Instagram then. We're not. We're not getting you into a thing.

[C]

People have been there.

[A]

Not allowed to hang out.

[B]

Like, everybody. Like, no, I just don't do the transactional nature.

[C]

Is that you think front and center?

[A]

I'm asking.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. No, I don't do, like, Fashion Week stuff.

[C]

It's all smart.

[B]

But it's also because I, like, don't get invited, and that's okay. It's because I don't have anything to offer them if anybody invites me. Some people do invite me, and I understand that that is charity. They are inviting me out of the goodness of their hearts because I have nothing to give them.

[A]

You spent fashion in return. You spent Fashion Week at an air base.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Now the brains are scared of you because you're in with the. You're in tight with the US Military.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[C]

Down twice before you get into the function.

[B]

Exactly. I know guys like, they. Yeah, they.

[A]

But to Drone Strike nine Orchard.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I will. I also have. The part that might actually be genuinely scary is that I. Now, I. I don't want to call myself, like, an expert on camo or anything, but I do start to see it with, like, the eye now. I'm like, really?

[C]

Like, people.

[B]

I see, like, 81 woodland, and I'm like, why?

[A]

You know, we're gonna talk about that. But you're like, it's not like, oh, I like, I see you. You're camouflaging. Working. Like, I can see you. Like, you're. No, it's not some John Cena.

[C]

You take that very literal.

[A]

You can. Well, it's too bad the season's locked and loaded and already shipped off. Otherwise you could take that one. All right, what can you tell us about this upcoming season of articles of interest?

[B]

Oh, my God. Okay. It's. It's about the intersection of the military and the outdoor industry, and they are deeply, deeply, deeply interwoven.

[A]

And I thought, they're in bed together, but we don't ask, don't tell.

[B]

They're very. They're very in bed together in a way that, like, I thought it was just going to be about the military because everybody is like, you know, every. Every tiktoker is like, did you know that the military informs what you wear? And like a peacock came from the military. Yeah, exactly. Like, whoa. And I was like. I was on that bent, too. I was like, oh, my God, like, khakis came from the military. But then, you know, you, like, dig down a little bit deeper, and it's like, it's the outdoor industry, all of it. They. And they informed each other in this major, major, major, major way. And so it's this really interest triangle between the outdoor industry and the military. And then, like, fashion kind of comes in. In the middle there, and it's like, from the dawn, like, the. The. The kind of annoying, snoozy part about my show is everything kind of, like, begins in the 1800s. I can't really, like, begin it with a cool hook because it's like, we have to go back to the founding of this country.

[A]

So France, England, or Japan.

[B]

Japan is not a huge part of this one, unfortunately. I know, I know. I'm sorry.

[C]

That's what the people want.

[B]

But this is very. This is about America. Very American.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Good season, right?

[C]

Crazy number.

[A]

Right at the buzzer of the empire, you get one last hurrah.

[B]

I know. And I'm so scared to listen to the news because everything could change on a dime.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, everything could change. But, yeah, this is a very. This is a very American season. And it's. But, you know, it's also kind of interesting because it does really show, like, what a batshit country we've been like, this entire time. And it's also really refreshing, just, like, seeing what a batshit country we've been this whole time. And it is really refreshing to look at the history and be like, oh, this whole entire time, there have been people who have been like, what like, there have been people who've been like, this makes no sense. In the beginning, the Spanish American War was so crazy that, long story short, we were like, we have to liberate Cuba. And then we were like, wait, no, maybe we should take over Cuba. And then people were like, what? That's so crazy. This is so against what we believe in. And it made me feel good that I was like, okay, so there were some Americans who were like, yeah, yeah.

[A]

If not for the Spanish American War, we never would have gotten the Rough Riders.

[B]

Yeah, that's true.

[A]

Blocks. Yeah.

[C]

Swizz. Beats.

[A]

Was Beats.

[C]

Eve.

[A]

Dragon.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And you're familiar, and it's true. And the next episode I'm working on. Oh, my God, I'm sorry. I'm so tired.

[A]

It's okay. The next episode.

[B]

The next episode I'm working on. What is her name?

[A]

What is her name?

[C]

Does she have Pitbull and a skirt? Yeah. Does she have, like, really tasteful, like.

[A]

Claw tattoos now married to, like, the founder or something? Like, some crazy.

[C]

No, that's Serena, the founder of Reddit. Serena Williams.

[A]

He's married to another, like, huge VC tech billionaire guy.

[B]

Wait, Alex Ohanessian is the founder of no Red.

[C]

That's Serena. Serena.

[B]

Okay. Sorry, baby. Daddy.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. I didn't realize that was his. Sorry.

[C]

They made. They made the right play, those ladies, I'll say that.

[A]

When did you like? Because apparently when we podcasted about a year and a half ago, you were like, oh, yeah, I'm going to do my next shit on the military. So, like, when did you land on military and outdoor gear as the subject matter for a full season?

[B]

Well, I always was like, I have this vision that I do think American clothes are sort of the mark of our empire. I think.

[A]

Blue jeans, baby.

[B]

Yeah. No, I really do. I really think that no matter what, the future of this whole American project will be in the same way that we're all speaking English now. And that's sort of the sign of this fallen past empire. I think the lingering effect of the American empire will be that, like, everybody wears American clothes all over the world. Even in countries where the local and regional clothing is still alive and vibrant, it is still an option to wear American clothes next to it.

[C]

Is it, like, an aspirational thing still for the rest of the world?

[B]

It's in some ways aspirational. In some ways it's just practical, you know, in some ways, it's like, this always works. Yeah. And part of me is like, what is that? Like, why is Everybody wearing American clothes. And there are lots of reasons why. And then the other question is, like, what is American clothes? Like, why are they normal? And so I do feel like Ivy was sort of part of that. I think some of it is Ivy. A big part of it is military. And then my third part that I aspire to do one day is Western and cowboy, and then I can die then, like, it's a wrap. Then it's a wrap.

[C]

How about just retire, don't die.

[B]

Okay, I won't.

[A]

But.

[B]

But it also feels very like, back to the future future. You know, like, third one, we go to the west.

[C]

Or like turtles in time. I guess that would be Japan, but I get what you're saying.

[B]

Sure. It just feels very. Like. I always feel like in the. The third version, they're like, what do we do?

[C]

Hail Mary? Time travel. Wild, wild West.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. I don't know. So, yeah, I feel like. Yeah.

[A]

So sports, GI Joes and cowboys. Yeah, Archetypes. Three pillars of the American.

[B]

And they all sort of represent these different ideals. You know, I do think, like, Ivy represents intelligence, institution, belonging, wealth. And I think the military represents ruggedness, selfish. Selfishness, selflessness, sacrifice, sacrifice, bravery, frugality, like these other sorts of values. And then I think cowboy represents, you know, individuality, lawlessness. They all. And then when you put them all together.

[C]

Donald Trump.

[B]

Well, no, because. But. But. But you get Ralph Lauren, you get Bodie, People lose it. They're like, it's America.

[A]

Yeah. One of Lawrence's fits. Yeah.

[C]

Basically. I mean, look at me today, right?

[B]

You get. But doing all of them, you get amazing style. No, it's true.

[C]

Amazing style. Clip that out. Thank you.

[B]

It's true. When you get amazing style, when you mix all archetypes, and that's this. That's like. That's American clothing. But. And. And it's kind of difficult to do, and it's kind of difficult to put your finger on. So I'm just taking the magic out of it. I'm just taking all of the.

[C]

No, you're educating. You're.

[B]

You're.

[C]

Yeah. How do you magic out?

[A]

But how do you know, like, what's the starting point for each of these seasons? Like, with American Ivy, you trace it all the way back to World War II to Japan or. No. Even earlier. Right. Like the American invasion of Japan in, like, the 1800s.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This one starts with the.

[B]

With American Ivy. Again, I'm like, everything's right. It's with, like, the founding of America. Because I do think we like America. Turns 250 next year.

[A]

And that's unchopped.

[C]

Yeah, it's so chopped.

[B]

It's so, like, I don't know, so much of it is just, like, in the bones and, like, we invent. And another reason for, like, why is everybody wearing American clothes? Like, we invented ready to wear. And I think you have to, like, go back to that. Like, why do we do that?

[C]

Right.

[B]

Where does it come from? Yeah. Thanks, Brooks Brothers.

[A]

Which I know because of articles of interest.

[B]

Exactly. And so. But I think, like, that's where American Ivy starts. And then with this, with the military season, it's like, well, where did the American army start? And like, how did our army start dressing?

[C]

The Revolutionary War.

[B]

Yeah. And this idea that, like, we were originally. We weren't going to have an army. Like, Thomas Jefferson was like, let's not have an army, because this historically is kind of a bad idea.

[C]

One of his better decisions, I think, but proved out to not work.

[B]

Yeah, well, it could have been a good decision. Then we would have had all these.

[C]

Militia talk about his personal life.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. A man. A man. Yeah, exactly. In compared to. Yeah, it's cool.

[C]

We can move on.

[A]

A complicated man.

[B]

A bad man. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. That's the annoying. It's very podcaster to be like, to understand that we have to go back in time. But. Yeah. So everything. But I never start there. It's always kind of annoying. I'm like, oh, no, we have to go back to 1830 again.

[A]

But I wonder where Western's gonna start. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, no, I'm just kidding.

[A]

So in the season, as. As in every season of articles of interest, you kind of speak to a whole wide range plethora of experts, of individuals, of people that like, honestly just kind of bring flavor and voice to the. To the. To the pursuit of the study. Like, what. Who is the most interesting person you spoke with in the season?

[B]

The designer for the military.

[A]

There's a design.

[B]

Like, there's a creative director for the military. Yeah.

[A]

Annette sick. Is he.

[B]

Annette. She.

[C]

She.

[A]

Is she sick. Wow.

[C]

They walked right into that. Got his ass.

[B]

Annette LaFleur. She's the designer for French. She's. She's American. She's American. Okay. She just has a very designer Y name.

[A]

Did she, like, go to, like, fit everybody?

[B]

I went to the fashion department of the US Military. It looks like a fashion school. They've got like, reams of fabric. They're cutting fabric. They all went to fashion school.

[A]

How heavy was the don't ask, don't tell policy in there.

[C]

Yeah, it was.

[B]

It's all women. It's really funny. It's very, like. And they're like, here's the. Here's. It's kind of fucked up fashion, people. It's really interesting.

[A]

Do they drip?

[B]

No. Well, what do they wear to work? They all. They're all. They all wear, like, black. They're like, oh, this is like the fashion section. Yeah, they're very. They. They have. They have got a. They've got a very, like, garment industry, like, shmata vibe going on. It's a lot of, like, little old ladies being like, I've done this forever.

[A]

Done this. It's.

[B]

No, that's kind of the vibe. And they're like, yeah, they let us do whatever we want in here. We have, like, cutting tables, and they let us make it like, our own place.

[A]

But it's all, like, technical and performance driven, I imagine. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're not doing, like, fucking. I don't know.

[B]

But. But it's really cool. They'll be like, oh, yeah, here's a suit that we made for, like, jumping out of helicopters. And it's awesome looking. Damn. And then. Well, that's just.

[A]

That's just Rick.

[B]

Exactly. It's so. It's so cool. And then the other half of it is like, oh, shit, we forgot to make, like, a maternity uniform.

[A]

Oh, that's.

[B]

They're reviving. They're revising a lot of, like, we got to make women things. So they're still working on that.

[A]

Yeah. Annette Lafleur was the most interesting. I mean, she sounds like she has a fucking wild story.

[B]

She's been doing the job for a long time. That was really interesting.

[C]

She an employee of the government or she, like. She have a rank in the military or.

[B]

She's. She's an employee of the government.

[C]

Federal employee.

[A]

She is serving, and it's major. Sorry.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The show. That's really respectful.

[A]

Salute. Annette, do you. Was she like. Did she strike you as, like, a fashion person?

[B]

Yeah, totally, Totally, totally. And she'll. She doesn't hesitate to be like. That's really chic. You know, she's like, oh, that's really chic.

[C]

That's dirty little word, but okay.

[B]

And she. Yeah, so she was really fascinating. And then, you know, like, I went to the. The big military contracting conference that they have, and, like, neck. They had all these tanks and, like, bullets, and I got to play with guns. Yeah. I got to, like, play with the.

[A]

The tanks.

[B]

Unmanned AI like, drones. Launchers.

[C]

Drones.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

I cried every night it was horrifying.

[C]

Is there clothes there?

[B]

Yep. So betcha.

[C]

So it's a trade show.

[B]

Obviously it's a trade show, but it's so wild that, like, the high performance clothes and, like, Gore Tex had a booth, Danner had a booth. You know, Polar Tech had a booth.

[A]

So it's like lethal AI and then you have, like, technical fabrics. Yeah.

[B]

And they have, like. What is it? Those. Those dog. The Boston Dynamics.

[C]

Oh, the robot dogs. Yeah. Those are terrifying.

[B]

Terrifying. Like, terrifying.

[A]

What's the Rizzbot there? That's a little robot that just screams memes at people.

[C]

Yeah, it's a. It's like the. It's the biggest menace in the five boroughs. I would say right now you want to say if you see the Riz Bot coming, you want to cross the street, you're about to get memed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is what I miss by not being on Instagram.

[A]

Yeah, you're not.

[B]

I'm Target. This is horrible.

[A]

You'll see it on, like, I don't know, the substack feed in a month or something.

[B]

Okay, cool.

[A]

Goes with, like, TikTok to IG to YouTube. Yeah.

[C]

Are people at the conference that sell fabrics or make clothes or even people like Annette, Are they worried that as the world and the military becomes more, like, automated, that, like, they're going to be at a job because robots don't need boots?

[B]

That's a really good question.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

It's a really good question. Well, the interesting thing and kind of the bigger meta story that slowly started to emerge as I looked into this was the role of Special Forces, who become more and more prominent. And Special Forces are, you know, like Delta Force Navy SEALs, like, these elite groups of dudes who.

[A]

And chicks.

[B]

And chicks. But mostly guys.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And it is mostly guys, and it is this culture, and it's an aesthetic culture, too, of, like, the beards, the tats, the. Because they have more leeway, they have more freedom. They don't have to wear what the infantry wears. They get their own budget. They can kind of buy and wear whatever they want.

[A]

They got wardrobe, budget.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. They can just plop down a credit card, basically buy whatever they want.

[A]

What are they buying?

[B]

So this is the thing now it's a little bit less. I don't want to say that what the infantry wears is completely relegated off to the sidelines. But now what is becoming increasingly important is, like, this world that's catering to the Special Forces, the people who are boots on the ground who are, like, doing this, like, kick down the door like, yeah, GI Joe shit.

[C]

The guy that, like, killing bin Laden.

[A]

They killed the North Korean fishermen.

[B]

They are, they are like going to cry tactical. The guys in the Navy yard plunking down a credit card and just buying these special forces gear. And so there are these whole private industries that are catering to them.

[C]

The tip of the spear. Just those guys.

[B]

Just those guys. And they're not government. They're. They're just making clothes. They're just making high performance clothes. And a lot of these places are also outdoor companies, the most prominent being probably outdoor research. Do you know them?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So outdoor research, they also make clothes for extreme hiking and camping for civilians. And it was so cool. I went to their headquarters in Seattle and they were. I really appreciate that they didn't hide that they do the tactical stuff too. A lot of companies pretend they don't. They think it's like at odds with their granola image.

[C]

Oh, sure.

[B]

Which I think is bullshit. It's like, one, don't lie. Two, I understand, like, I hate the military industrial complex and I do think everyone deserves to be warm. Like it exists, you know, like, also you do make this stuff. So I really appreciated that. Outdoor research is like, yeah, we do tactical.

[C]

Like we make transparency.

[B]

We make stuff for soldiers. And then they were like, do you want to see it? And they're in their office. They like brought me up a level. And there was a factory. They were like, because everything for the military has to be made in the United States for the Barry Amendment. It's like a matter of national security Amendment. Yeah, because if you make. If you make the. What?

[C]

No, you just.

[A]

Stupid joke.

[C]

It was a dumb joke over your head. Asap, you know? You know, asap. Bari, do you know what we're talking about?

[B]

Asap. Who?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, he made like founding memories. Vlone took a lot of military cues. Anyway, sorry. So you went to the factory. So everything has to be made in the US like, everything from like the thread to the buttons to the zippers to everything. Is that what's keeping made in USA textile industry live?

[B]

Basically. And so like outdoor research is like making. They were just like making gloves there in the factory. But like, they're make. So they're making gloves for like the infantry. They're making like, you know, thousands and thousands of gloves for like normal soldiers. But they also have this whole business making elite super high end, you know, top line jackets that are like thousands of dollars in multicam.

[C]

For the black ops boys.

[B]

Yeah, for the black ops boys. That they can be like, we're deploying in 30 days. We need this now.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

And they can just like, get it because they can just get whatever mission critical shit they need. So it's creating. And then they're like increased use of private armies. And a lot of this is, you know, kind of stemming from this idea that, like, we don't like forever. America doesn't like forever wars. We don't like to keep fighting, and yet we don't like to lose.

[C]

No. So we love not quitters.

[B]

We're not quitters. And so we love. We. You know, we don't. Yeah, we don't like bad guys winning, but we don't like to say we're at war. How can we have our cake and eat it too? Drone strikes and special ops guys. Like, it's a way to like, fight in Yemen without anybody really knowing or caring about it.

[C]

Secret soldiers of Benghazi type shit.

[B]

Yeah. And it manifests in the clothes, which is this.

[C]

How are the clothes different besides being more high end? Are they aesthetically?

[B]

Yeah, they're more high end. I mean, they're fudgeing cool. Undeniably, the look is really cool. And the other thing is, like, anybody can get it. Like, you can go on Cry's website, you can go like, the military edition. Salomon's are like, so cool. And they're like black, you know, and they're lightweight and they're really expensive and they're cool. Like, that's why in 2020, Virgil Abloh was wearing Arc' teryx leaf at fashion week. Like, it's awesome, you know, and it like, played into this gorp core thing because it was this special ops look that came out of the war on terror. So it's all like, wow.

[A]

No, it's all connected. I mean, you mentioned how a lot of these brands, they kind of like, hide or shelter. The fact that they are in cahoots with the military industrial complex, which pays the bills. Do you think that the unemployed hippies in the Pacific Northwest know about the connections between the military industrial complex and like, gorpy, outdoorsy gear?

[B]

Well, okay. I do also want to make something clear, which is the military is a really shitty client. And they. It's like, it's. It really sucks.

[A]

What are they like, that's 60, 60.

[C]

Years once the war's over, they're like.

[B]

Because they'll. They are really cheap because they're really interested in, you know, saving the American taxpayer money. So you could lose a bid if someone, if another company can pay, can make something for like, a Penny less than you. So if you are Outdoor Research, and you're like, I can make this glove, and someone's like, I can do it for a penny less, you could lose that bid. And you're like, what? I hired all these people. I bought all this machinery.

[A]

It's also true of weaponry, though. Like the. The US Military, like, innovation is really tanked.

[B]

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[C]

It's like there's a plot of War Dogs.

[B]

What?

[C]

The movie War Dogs. This is like, oh, it's just. But about the contracts, where it's like, whatever we don't need.

[A]

There's also. Yeah, it's also based in reality, but it's all.

[B]

But it's also really hard because it's really hard to get American sewing talent. Like. Like, Americans don't really know how to sew anymore. And so if you want to keep, you know, the. The folks at Outdoor Research were like, it is so hard to maintain our factory because you could get a big contract. You could get a big contract. They're like, we need 5,000 gloves now. And they're like, we don't have the talent. We got to ramp up, like, immediately. They were like, it's feast or famine, and it's immediate.

[A]

Can we know if we're going to war or not? Based on, like, if Outdoor Research gets a huge influx of order, it's like, all right, we need tropical resistant, weather resistant pants, because we're, you know, we're about to go defend Taiwan.

[B]

It's so interesting. I was trying to figure that out because I went to Natick, like, the research center, and they have this planning structure that looks like the Clueless, like the closet from Clueless. It's like a little like a. It looks like, you know, in the first scene of Clueless, when Shara has that little doll of herself that she's dressing up. It's a image on a screen of a soldier. And you can, like, dress up the soldier for different environments. Yeah. And it's really fun. And they're like, this is a little software that we made up for engineers to, like, dress up. And they were like, we're looking at arctic environments.

[A]

I was like, yeah, for our Fall Winter 27 collection. Yeah, we're invading Venezuela, like, Greenland.

[B]

It was so hard to figure out, like, is this hypothetical, like, what's going.

[C]

Are the contracts public for clothes like they used to be for weapons and things?

[B]

It's. It's so hard to tell. It's so hard to tell what is about general preparedness.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And what is like, oh, no, we're doing this.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It is really, really hard to know. And apparently the turnaround time on the contracts is really, really tight.

[A]

So the military guys, we need jackets. It's brick in Chicago and we're about to invade it.

[C]

Oh, God in the net. We're sending the National Guard to. Oh, block.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the military is like a shit client. So that's one thing. I thought it was like, oh, they're getting in on the military industrial complex because that's like the way to make money.

[A]

And what percentage of like the trillion dollar budget, military budget goes to clothing?

[B]

Oh, that's a great question.

[A]

0.0001%.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[B]

That's the thing. It's like, it's probably not that much because a lot of it is, like now private operators probably getting, you know, their stuff from these companies.

[A]

Not a lot. Not a lot. So $5,000 jacket sounds like a lot.

[B]

But so that's, so that's the interesting thing. I expected it to, like, make me madder. So. Yeah, it actually doesn't make me as mad as I thought it would.

[A]

Has it changed your opinion of the military at all, like, from when you first started? If you expected to get more angry, more anti, more. More pacifist?

[B]

Yeah, I definitely am, like, as angry. I mean, this is, this sounds so. I hate the kind of like, annoying centristy place where I've landed, but it makes me hate, it makes me hate this system as much as ever. It's like, this is so going to the military trade show and watching everybody get fucking amped on these tanks. Like, this shit's so cool.

[C]

War boners.

[B]

Horrible, Terrifying. But then, like, meeting so many soldiers. Like, these people are so incredible. And they all have this thing that I don't have, which is this idea of service. Like, I don't want to serve this country.

[A]

I'm trying to serve this.

[C]

Look, yeah, I'll serve crack before I serve this country.

[B]

It's just something I don't have. Like, I don't get it. I just, I. It's not in me. I don't have that thing. And so that's the thing. It did make me understand. That's why I'm like, I really do believe in, like, keeping people warm, you know, they're amazing people. They, they, they learn three languages, they jump out of planes. They're. They're incredible people. And so that's why I'm like, I think it's okay to like, make jackets for, for soldiers. I really think that's fine. And I really don't want them to get hurt and I really want them to be safe. And I think that, you know, and it's really tricky because, you know, when I think about every. Everybody brings up like World War II and Ukraine, it's like, when I think about Ukraine, it's like, obviously I want Ukrainians to have like, top of the line, amazing gear.

[C]

Yeah. You hate the game, not the players.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. And so that, that's where I've landed. And the nice thing about thinking about clothes is that it is so personal. It's like I am rooting for the clothes. I want the clothes. I want the clothes to work. I want the clothes to be great. I want the clothes to be as like high end and amazing and functional.

[A]

We're winning the war on drip. No, no, Drip is winning the war.

[B]

Amazing as they can possibly be. I want them to be cool and.

[A]

Be as swaggy as you can be. That's the military motto. Right?

[B]

But that's actually there was this. In the 40s, they had this. What is it? CI they called it the chicks dig it factor. There was like a.

[A]

Hell, yeah.

[B]

In the 40s, a bunch of soldiers wore their new uniforms to a bowling alley and they had girls like, rate which ones they liked more. It's like a big part of like the military propaganda. It's like the soldiers want to feel cool. It's also part of it. So that's the thing. This is another reason why it makes me mad when crunchy places are like, pretending that they don't support the military. Because one, it's a lie. Two, don't just. I don't. I don't. I. If you were making guns, you. Right. But you're making a jacket. Like, why are you pretending that's a bad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Thing.

[A]

Whack, drip, sink ships.

[C]

There it is. Well, I feel like when Arcteric's leaf became like a mood board thing when, you know, obviously guys were shouting, I. I saw. Well, not even that, but I saw like people trying to bring like cancel culture to like Arc Teryx because of Leaf, where it's like, this is like a giant revenue stream for a company. Like, sorry that you didn't know this, but, like, what are we getting mad at here?

[B]

And that's the other thing is, like when I was at the trade show, it's like everyone was there. Your phone carrier was there. The airline you fly on is there, like your car, you know, the car company that you use. Is there everybody Is there everybody. Is there governments are there.

[C]

Want that money?

[B]

You know, everybody's there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's America. Everybody's in a piece of this. And so the clothing industry is sort of, like, unfairly vilified because it's the industry that maybe we have the most choice in. Like, you could choose another jacket brand.

[A]

Yeah. And the most, like, outward. Like, you know, perception. Right. I see that you're wearing Leaf, whatever.

[B]

Right, right. And it's like, frivol, you know, it's like, ugh. You could.

[C]

Yeah, just wear something.

[B]

Wear something else. And then it's sort of like, oh, well, your phone carrier is like, a necessary evil. Or, you know, it's like, yeah, everybody's in on it. Sorry. Everybody is in.

[A]

Shocking blood is on everyone's hands.

[B]

It's kind of true.

[A]

Was that convention the wildest place you found yourself in making the season because you went to. You did a lot of. You went to a lot of interesting places.

[B]

Yeah, that. That one was definitely the suckiest. That one definitely sucked. I really hated that. Oh, no, it was funny because I thought, like, when I went to.

[A]

And did they hate you, or they're like, look at this liberal.

[B]

Yeah, I definitely.

[A]

People were like, loafers.

[C]

Stay away from. Don't talk to her.

[B]

Yeah. I was like, I'm the only one wearing comme des garcon at the military conference.

[A]

No one at the military conference knows I'm wearing cdg.

[C]

Yeah. Were you, like, on a list? Maybe.

[B]

Okay. I think, like, I took a picture of my press badge in front of, like, brought to you by, you know, Palantir, and it's like, y' all weren't.

[A]

Supreme to the Raytheon booth.

[B]

I have this great piece of tape where someone was like, are you. Are you kidding me? Is this a joke? I was like, no, I'm really a fashion journalist. Will you talk to me about these pants?

[A]

All right. So besides that, though, because, again, like, I don't want to give away. The episodes have been locked and loaded. But, like, what really blew your mind of, like, holy shit. Like, this is a really interesting, fascinating place? Well, more on a positive scale. Positive sense.

[B]

I'm racking my brain. I talked to so many people for this.

[C]

No silver linings.

[A]

No, I mean, Zipper factory.

[B]

Yeah, well, the zipper factory was. Was awesome. And the zipper factory is, like, that was one of the place places where I wasn't allowed to bring a camera there. This is top secret. I was like, really? It's a zipper.

[A]

It zips.

[B]

Yeah. And they were like, no. Like, our. Our competitors are, like, trying to steal this Shit. And there were a lot of, like, weird places that I just ended up going to where I was like, why am I on a train to Olympia, Washington? I really don't understand what I'm doing here. And now putting it all together, it's all.

[C]

It'll make sense in the edit. Don't worry.

[B]

It makes sense in the end.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

My sister in Christ. You made the podcast. You put yourself on that train.

[B]

Why? I don't know why you put yourself.

[A]

On that train to Olympia.

[B]

I did. I did. And it was worth it in the end.

[C]

Right.

[B]

But the. The costume warehouse was super cool.

[A]

That sounds cool.

[B]

Meeting all the soldiers was awesome. I mean, the funny thing was, like, going to the actual facility where they design the clothes in Natick, Massachusetts, is not very flashy. Like, it hasn't been updated since the 70s.

[A]

Sounds like our fucking military, Am I right?

[B]

It's. And I was like, you know, everything's like butter yellow, and it looks like it's out of Dr. Strangelove.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And they were like. I was like, it looks like it's out of Dr. Strangelove. And they were like, cool, right?

[C]

No, no, the opposite, actually.

[B]

Not quite, but yeah. And I went to, like, the quartermaster archive and looked at these jackets from, like, the Civil War. A lot of, like, touch and cloth. Looking at old jackets. What did I do? Where did I go? It's all a blur. It's all a blur.

[A]

Find out.

[C]

I think October 22, you might have got MK Ultra. And I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah. I. Yeah.

[A]

Men in Black.

[B]

I remember nothing.

[A]

Was there, like, a single moment that. Or the single. Besides grappling with your sense of what's right, what's wrong, your stance on, you know, every. Everything. What was, like, the hardest part about making this season?

[B]

Yeah, that was hard. That was really hard to be like, well, am I culpable? Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, should I even be focusing on this? This is so.

[C]

But it's interesting and people super deserve to know. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Not endorsing it or is that the fear?

[A]

Or are you.

[B]

That is. That is the fear. And, you know, in the end, I worry about. There's always all this rhetoric and all the clothing companies, especially outdoor research. Outdoor research. You know, because they. I like that they complained pretty openly. I like that they were like, yes, we do provide. We do tactical. They didn't hide it. And I like that they were open about the government as an awful client. Yeah. And I really appreciated their complete transparency about everything. And then I was like, but why do you do this then? And they're basically like, because we got to protect the boys. And, you know, I talked. Oh, cry was a crazy place. That was a really amazing place to go right here in the Navy yard. Like, I don't think they've done press in like 10 years. It was really amazing to talk to them. And they were also like, we do this, you know, for the boys. Like, we got to protect the boys. And then talking to a lot of veterans who are not only boys, but I was like, oh, my God, we got to protect the gender neutral boys, right?

[C]

The guys. The guys and gals. Gender neutral guys and days.

[B]

The gender neutral. Yeah, we got to protect the they. And so I did kind of walk away being like, we got to protect them. And I sort of walked away with this feeling of like, but I don't. Is this necessary? Like, do we need war? And there's all this rhetoric around war being something. You always hear all this rhetoric of war being necessary to protect peace. And nowadays as war being something necessary to, like, give people purpose or, like, give people something to do.

[C]

That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Or like, start a war. You hear that? Like, the boys lack purpose. You know, like, the boys. The manhood is in crisis, you know.

[A]

So let's go kill people.

[B]

But this is. This is the thing that people say, you know, like, yeah, politicians, it's this logic.

[A]

Pete Hegseth, what he drug text that to you.

[B]

And it's like, latter. It's. It was. Theodore Roosevelt said this, you know, at the turn of the last century. It's this, like, that keeps coming back over and over again. And so I did. I did really want to talk about this. And so I did do a bunch of interviews. And I think I'm going to end the series this way of like, well, do we need war? Which sounds. I'm like, I don't really know if I can tackle that question. It seems a little big, but I do think it has to start getting, you know, approximated because I don't want to come out endorsing it. And I think this is the only way to attack it, because if it must be, then, yes, I. I want to protect.

[C]

How to be as safe as possible.

[B]

I want to be as safe as possible, but I don't want to have to need. Need it. And, you know, it was really interesting having these fundamental discussions because there were people who were like, absolutely not. We don't need it. And then there were, you know, the defense editor at the Economist is like, we do need it. And we can't fight it with drones because at the end of the day, sentimentality is the only thing that wins. Like the only way that you can conquer.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Yeah, it's like blood has to be shed. It's like, oh, so it. It really was like, so it. There were. There were a lot of things that left me sort of existentially devastated about this, like, fashion podcast.

[A]

Welcome to our lives. Yeah.

[C]

Damn. So you had to get. No, I actually got political.

[A]

Wait, you're the only one that understands us.

[B]

Yeah, it's really. It's really.

[C]

And you had no idea that it was. You were going to come to this kind of moral crossroads at some point because you. It was going to. You didn't realize that.

[B]

I kind of knew I had to. Because you know how. Because you, I. You. Because I. Because I. I wanted to hear out both. I don't want to say both sides because I don't think there's a. Well, I don't want to say there's a. Both sides to war, but I don't want to disrespect. Sure.

[A]

But you can. You also cannot ignore the endemic nature of war and military in. In culture and fashion and politics and everyday life. Right.

[B]

That's such a good way to put it. Right. And I don't want to be disrespectful to the. It has shaped everything.

[A]

As a journalist, you're investigating, like how entwined and enmeshed this is in our literal day to day.

[B]

That's such a good way to put it. Thank you.

[A]

Internet. The Internet built by military.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Exactly. Main USA clothing. Thank you. Military or not. Thank you. Thanks to the military.

[B]

Exactly. And so.

[A]

And so roads.

[B]

If everything is shaped infrastructure by warfare. Yeah. I don't. It's like, I don't want to. I have to find another word other than like. It's not gratitude, but it's sort of like awe. I kind of want to come to it with something that approximates awe.

[A]

I think we don't shock. If you don't. If you don't. If you don't.

[B]

Could say.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[A]

If you don't come to it with some sort of reverence, you're not going to understand how like, grand it actually is.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You can't discount it. You can't.

[B]

And understanding how little, like knowing how little I know as a civilian, you.

[A]

Can'T know too much. Otherwise. Yeah. You'll get suicided.

[C]

And now more. And that's why you, you do the show so that people now also have the knowledge they can make their own conclusion.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That's the. That's the point of the journalism.

[B]

What do you.

[A]

What do you think of. You're talking about. Kind of touched on, like, men 20, 25. We're really struggling. We have no purpose. What do you think of. What's your gut reactions, like, in menswear, the military stolen valor that occurs. Not like guys are wearing uniforms to get a discount at Chili's or whatever. Cut the line at the airport gate. Yeah. Them more just like, guys that are kind of, like, putting this on as, like, armor for, like, mass or as, like, a masculinity, you know, exoskeleton.

[B]

I, as a civilian who has no skin in the game, think it's great. Oh, I have no. I mean, look at me.

[A]

Yeah, but you're doing it in, like, a fashion way.

[B]

I'm appropriating both Pakistani and military culture right now. I'm the problem. But I also. Okay, here's my. Here's my logic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have talked to a lot of soldiers, reservists, veterans at this point, and I was at a. Oh, here's another funny place. It's all coming back to me now. Here's another funny place I went. I went to. It was also really interesting, seeing how much of this stuff is, like, all around us, you know, like, even in Brooklyn. I went to Fort Garrison on the edge of Brooklyn, and in Fort Garrison, there is a exchange, which is, like, on the military base. It's a store, and it's where you can, like, buy stuff and you can buy everything on a military exchange. They have liquor, they have bikes, they have clothes and, like, really nice clothes, and it's all for a discount, and civilians can't shop there. I went with my friends who.

[C]

It's the employee store.

[B]

It's employees. Exactly. And I went with my friend, who's a Marine reservist, and they had military fatigues and, you know, with, like, the camo. With the. With the OCP camo, which is the most current camo that they have now. And I picked it up, and I was like, oh, my God. It's like, real military camo pants. And I was like, alex, can you buy these pants for me? I really want these camo pants. And he was like, ooh, I. I don't know if I can do that, like, legally. He was like, I don't know if that's allowed. And then this other, like, older lieutenant was shopping, and he was like, you could totally do that, man. That's totally okay. And he was like, she could buy that online. They're not gonna check, right? Like, her credentials. Just buy it for her. It's fine. And so he, like, did. And I venmoed him. And I wear them on the street in Brooklyn, and people love them. People are like, those pants are so.

[C]

Those Ralph Lauren. Where do you get those?

[A]

Yeah, please, please take my first class seat.

[B]

Well, okay, so here's what. Here's the thing. And I ask people, I wear them sometimes to interviews to kind of bait people, and I say, like, is this okay? Or like, what do you think of this? Or sometimes I don't wear them. And I say, what do you think?

[C]

It's an icebreaker that I own.

[B]

That I own these pants, you know, to try to not be offensive. And a number of soldiers and veterans will say, you know, I wouldn't do that. Me personally, because it's kind of embarrassing to show off. Like, I'm a soldier.

[C]

Right?

[B]

But you go for it. You know, like, they're like, I'm not going to be the person who's like, I'm boarding the plane first. That's considered a little like, g. It's.

[C]

More acceptable to steal the valor in a weird way.

[B]

They're like, I'm not going to do it. But you go for it. And so there's even a term for it in the military, and I'm probably using this incorrectly. So if you're a soldier or a veteran, please forgive me and correct me. I love being wrong. There's a term for it in the military which is boot, which is if you're, like, really gung ho about the military stuff. If you're like, wearing your dog tags and you've got the crew cut and you're like, wearing your camo and you're boarding the plane first, you're. You're boot. You're being super boot.

[C]

It's like a hardo is like the. Like, they're just like, yeah, they're trying so hard.

[A]

This boot ass.

[B]

Exactly. They're like, don't be boot. And so if you're wearing your camo, you're like your super boot. And so it's like, if they're not going to wear it, who is this?

[C]

The civvies?

[B]

So fudgeing. Yeah, go for it. So that's. That's my logic is like, why not?

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

But don't pretend, you know, switch.

[C]

Right, right, right.

[B]

And so they're like, style it. Go for it. Have fun.

[C]

In terms of just, like, just general tastefulness in 2025. Like dudes wearing camo. You think it's fire.

[B]

Yeah. And I also think it kind of harkens back. I really like the way that military surplus was worn in the 70s when it was a protest movement that was also an alignment with soldiers, where veterans who were protesting the war also were wearing their surplus and going to peace marches. And people were wearing M65 jackets with peace signs on them.

[C]

In solidarity.

[B]

In solidarity. And it was a way to be like, I'm against this war, but I'm like, either a soldier or I, like, stand with soldiers. And it was this way that civilians and soldiers were, like, kind of aligned. And I do think there's a potential for, you know, civilians and soldiers have never been more at odds. We're literally being sicked against each other by the president. And the funny thing is we are all sort of dressing the same anyway. In many cases, we're wearing the same brands, were, like, wearing the same Arc teryx jacket in different colors. And I'm like, why not just wear the same pattern and style it in different ways? Like, we have the capacity to kind of do a revival of that seventies movement.

[C]

A uniform for resistance.

[B]

Exactly where you had people. You know, I talked to this, my friend Ray, who's also a podcaster, and he served in shortly after Vietnam, and he was like, yeah, I could wear my fatigues and go to a peace protest, but I was a soldier, and it was really cool that I could. I could hang out with people who were in, like, a totally different world than me. And we all sort of dress the same, and I think we kind of have that potential, which I know sounds. Again, I am embarrassed by the sort of, like, centrist kumbaya place I've come to in this, but I really think there's, like, potential common ground. Right.

[A]

It's just, you know, Lawrence is gonna go take these fatigues to a protest right after this podcast.

[C]

That's why I'm. That's why I'm doing it. I'm so. I know it's big of me. It's big of me. I know you. Yeah, yeah, it's cool. I don't need to be. Yeah.

[A]

Big activist.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Fashion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why do you think guys feel the need or the urge to get so geared up? Whether it is, you know, in military, direct things that are, like, directly militarily influenced or like, the outdoorsy gear where it's like, bro, you're just going on like a three mile loop. You don't necessarily need all that when, like, sneakers Jeans and a flannel shirt would suffice. What do you think drives guys to, like, just get overly geared up in this day and age? That's such a phenomenon.

[B]

I know. That's kind of why I did this show. Because I don't really know. Do you know? I think.

[A]

I think it's. I think it's. I think it's too.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I think it's to perform masculinity. I think it's like, you know, yeah, it looks cool, but it's also like. It feels cool, but it's also like you're just going for a walk. Yeah, but did you get to dig into, like, the male psyche at all of, like, why you think?

[B]

I mean, you know, there is a part of it where, like, it does work. It works really well. And I think another part of it is like, if you go back to like the 1800s, a lot of the aesthetic of American outdoor wear was indigenous. Everything was like, oh, you have to look like Daniel Boone or like a Native American. Everything was very, like, fringy.

[A]

They didn't call it Native Americans in the 1800s.

[B]

What?

[A]

I'm sure they weren't saying Native American.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[C]

Code word. Yeah.

[B]

It was very like, please don't. This is what works in the outdoors. And I think part of the byproduct of the outdoor industries intermingling with the military is this idea that what makes gear separate from fashion is that it's like, tested. It turned clothing into machinery and it's like, it works. I don't care about fashion. It's machinery. And now I think in the modern era, we've just taken it to this like, X degree where it looks like a piece of gadgetry. And I think it just helps you take it seriously. It's like, that's the look we've gone from. Yeah. That's what we consider outdoor looking things to be this piece of gadgetry. And that's how you get taken seriously.

[A]

You said you had a line where it's like, we, we ever since the 1800s, like, with these guidebooks and like buckskin suits, like, we require so much to do the simplest thing, which is just being outside.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, part of that is just like, because the United States, because white people settled the United States and didn't really know how to live here and have, like, have gone shopping from the beginning, like, there was no knowledge of how to like, live here.

[C]

I am unprepared for this.

[B]

They had to buy shit from the beginning. They bought shit. From indigenous people. Yeah, like.

[A]

Or. Or just took it.

[B]

Yeah, or took it but.

[C]

Or bought it for like 15 cents.

[A]

Here's some wampum.

[B]

Exactly. But like shopping is embedded in. And they like pretend they wait really.

[A]

So we don't have to feel bad about ourselves for being addicted to shopping because it's just in our.

[C]

Wait.

[A]

American 250 year old bones.

[C]

I love this.

[B]

We like, we. It's just our thing. Like we outdoor gear. We. We bought it from the jump been.

[A]

Boot when they showed up to go for a walk in the buckskin suit.

[B]

100. So Roosevelt in his fringy suit, like, he bought that.

[C]

Manifest destiny is just shopping on a discount. The ultimate discount.

[A]

We could put them all there.

[C]

Jesus.

[B]

It's pretty sad.

[C]

So I just think.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

That's just in our DNA. And more so the. And the male. Male DNA. Because we are talking about, well, all people hike, all types of people.

[B]

Well, it is more in male DNA because male ready to wear clothes were invented before female ready to wear clothes. So it was this idea that like, oh, we're too busy. We can't be bothered to sew. Like you have to sew, right. So women had to keep up with trends themselves. So that's why it's like you have to read these magazines and you have to like, keep up with it for themselves. We men will like go to Brooks Brothers where someone will keep up with trends for us. So like we shop. And like you women, you have to figure this shit out on your own. Right? And so ready to wear clothes for women came later. So like, men be shopping really? Women. Well, women were buying fabric. Women had to buy a lot more. They had to buy like trims and like buttons and things. So women were constantly shopping for a lot more. But men were buying this, like, made this ready to wear off the rack stuff.

[A]

I think they're going back to like, having to gear up and like, look like you're gonna, you know, cross the Sierra mountains to go get a matcha. Like, that's.

[C]

There's also.

[A]

There's this psychology of like dominating nature versus, like coexisting with it or like, you know, co. Harmonizing with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that uniquely American, do you think?

[B]

Yes. Oh, you guys are so good. I love being on this show. Good questions. A lot of it comes back to Teddy Roosevelt.

[A]

Really bully.

[B]

Yeah. Because he goat.

[C]

The biggest bully.

[A]

Bull moose, goat.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

Three animals.

[B]

He like, because he ended up being after. He was like the rough rider, you know, liberator of the Cuban people. And then abrupt ender of the Philippine War was like the conservationist president. He helped lay the groundwork for the national park system.

[A]

Because they went to fucking yeets and big game, basically.

[B]

Essentially, yeah.

[C]

And want to be on safari domestically.

[B]

He set up the groundwork, which is like, the president can create national monuments. And so one of. He made like 18 national monuments. He created, like five national parks and 18 national monuments, which created the groundwork for presidents to, like, create national parks. And one of the 18 monuments he made is the Grand Canyon. And in his plea to Congress for the Grand Canyon, he was like, this is a perfect thing. It is a, you know, divide. Arizona has this amazing thing. We have to leave it as it is. Man can only mar nature, which is like. Leads to this idea that, like, people don't belong in nature, which is absurd. Like, people used to live there. Right before all those Indian wars that Teddy Roosevelt fucking loved so much.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

So he helped create this mindset that, like, nature is where no people live. Cities are where the people live.

[C]

Interesting.

[B]

You go to nature, like, it's a little museum and that. And you, like, hunt and you hike and then you, like, go back to the city.

[C]

What a hot take.

[B]

And you, like. You take it in doses and it's, like, good for you. And it's pristine. And then you, like, almost consume it like a. Like a pill, you know, it's, like, good for you. Rather than just seeing it as, like, the world where you live.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that is part of, you know, and don't get me wrong, I love the national parks. I'm very. Teddy Roosevelt, like, prevented the Grand Canyon from becoming a mall. That's great. Teddy Roosevelt did a lot of great things. He did a lot of shitty things. But it's just a really interesting part of the American psyche that we're like, this is a museum of the outdoors.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I read a book recently about. After his presidency, he was kind of just like, bored, right? Not really relevant anymore. Chase him, clout. He went and explored and mapped out a section of the Amazon river that so crazy. Was like a wild journey. But, like, they showed up with like 90 trunks of gear and the Nate. The native guides were like, yo, what the. Like, you want to support all this? Like, you don't need all this. So it kind of was an early performative male ass move of being like, yo, I need the arc, the Archy. I need the, you know, the Danner boots to go to the coffee shop and get myself a Cordado 100.

[B]

And you see this with like, everybody. All the early hikers of Mount Everest, you know? Yeah, like the Nepali guy behind him.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[B]

Who, like, doesn't need all.

[C]

He's smoking a Sig, Chilling with a llama.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Is there. Okay, let's talk about this, because there's the new phenomenon or the newly labeled phenomenon of the performative male. Is there a through line, do you think, between guys who dress up like they're going to summit Mount Everest to just go get some Matcha? And the archetype of the performative male, the guy that, you know, was taking a shower. Taking a shower in his Arcterics jacket. And now the guy that's like, oh, look at the book I'm reading. Look at the tote bag from the tasteful bookstore I frequent all the time.

[B]

I mean. Yeah, I guess so.

[C]

Only one of those activities impresses a woman. I think the shower in the jacket, that was, like, impressing dudes. Trying to impress dudes online. But I feel like it depends on.

[B]

The city you're living in.

[C]

Totally.

[B]

For Portland versus.

[C]

Or what borough even in New York. Let's be real hyper local.

[B]

I don't know. I feel like now we're getting into, like, Veblen and shit, right? It's like, ah, the. Whether. What you're signifying with your. With your clothes and your goods and. And stuff like that.

[A]

Do you see as a Brooklyn Nepo.

[B]

Baby podcaster, like, public media Nepo baby.

[A]

Yeah. Who's. Who's the performative male in your eyes these days? What are they doing? What are they wearing? What are you seeing?

[C]

Call them out.

[A]

Because to me, it's like, you can't call a guy for reading a book. A performative male.

[B]

No, I love. I'm like, yay.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Reading.

[C]

Good.

[B]

Incredible. Yeah. He learned all. Even if you're not really reading, I'm like, you're holding it up. That's great. Everybody look.

[A]

Yeah, but take the bell hooks and turn it upside down. You're reading upside down, sweetie.

[B]

The performative male. I don't know. I'm like, I'm so bad. I'm like, I haven't.

[C]

That was big discourse over the summer.

[B]

I know. I'm so bad at this now. I really haven't been out in a long time.

[C]

You've been working. You've been in the trenches.

[A]

I've really been in pro tools, like, in the foxhole.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

For weeks.

[A]

All right, let me ask you this.

[B]

Wait, I want to know what you think it is.

[A]

I think we kind of named, like, at least like the tropes and like the stereotypes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just guys being. Trying to get noticed by girls.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's all.

[C]

My one justification is that we'll never know what's in the heart of the person we're calling performative. So what are the motivations? We'll never know unless we ask that person, which is crazy. If you're like, yo, why are you reading that? Like accosting them?

[A]

Like, why you drinking that matcha.

[C]

Exactly. So it's hard the out. It's hard to say though. I think that there are absolutely good and bad actors when it comes to these behaviors that have been labeled performative for better.

[A]

The performative males have become self aware. Yeah. That's the scary thing. They've learned how to open doors.

[C]

They've learned how to read books. They've learned how to open books.

[B]

That one post of the guy with the typewriter in the cafe.

[C]

Oh my. Well, so that's. That's evil. That's evil. We gotta. We should stone him or make him enlist in the military, see how long he lasts.

[B]

I was like, oh, come on. I saw that in San Francisco many times. Yeah, right. That is old news.

[A]

Yeah. How long do you think you would last in war, Avery?

[B]

You know, it's funny, I had this conversation with my, with my veteran friend because he was talking about when he joined and he was like, I was amped up. I was like ready to go. Like I wanted to fight and I was.

[C]

That's how they get you.

[B]

Yeah. I was like, oh, really?

[A]

So, yeah, I was going to get a hellcat charger.

[B]

Like, well, I was like. I was like, I'm a proud coward Ray. Like I would never. And he was like, that's what makes you kill people.

[A]

What?

[C]

Oh, being a coward.

[B]

Yeah. He was like. Cuz that's what makes you fight back. You have to be really brave to be like, I would rather die. Oh, I know. I was like. He was like. He was like, you'll see. You're in a foxhole and you don't want to. And someone. Someone comes in, it comes at you, you'll want to live. You'll see. And I had to like, this guy.

[A]

Ray sounds like he's seen some.

[B]

Ray.

[C]

Ray sounds awesome.

[B]

Ray is awesome Ray. Ray's seen some. Ray's seen some real.

[C]

You said he. He enlisted after Vietnam.

[B]

Yeah, he's the one doing the drill sergeant drills at the beginning. He's like singing.

[A]

Oh, okay. Yeah, I thought he's the one clocking it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, he's the. He's singing the little army song.

[A]

Well, before you get into the fox one. Before you.

[B]

I'm like, I thought I was. I wouldn't survive at all. But he's like, the scared ones are the. Like, oh, that's.

[A]

You gotta watch.

[C]

I'll do anything. Yeah, yeah, Squirrely.

[B]

So he's like, you don't know how you're gonna be until you're there, until.

[A]

You'Re tested, until you're in the.

[B]

Until you're. You're in the. And it's like, I don't know the fact. Thinking about how it takes real bravery to be like, I'm just gonna stand stock still and do nothing. Like what?

[A]

I'm gonna draw fire away from my colleagues by just standing still.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

If you got drafted, though, what would you want your military fit to be?

[B]

What would I want my fit to be?

[C]

Yeah, you've seen all the shit now.

[A]

You want, like, black ops cry jacket, like the Pakistani camo, but, you know. Yeah, I joined Pakistani on your salman boots.

[B]

I mean, you can't deny that the marines have the swaggiest. The swaggiest outfit. I did talk to. I interviewed someone who was in the military orchestra. And that is, like, a really cool.

[C]

The nerds of the military, definitely.

[B]

And it's a great job, you know, that like. Like, she was like, yeah, my husband is like a flautist. And, like, how many careers can you have of like, no true traveling orchestra.

[C]

Taking the show on the road.

[B]

Yeah. And she was like, you can shoot a gun and play in an. In. Play an instrument, but it was.

[A]

It was all the same day. Yeah.

[B]

It was really intense, though. She talked about her training. You know, she was like, we're just musicians, and we had to, like, do the same military training as everybody.

[C]

You never know when you're going to be called in.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You ever killed a man with a trumpet?

[B]

It was really intense.

[C]

Damn.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So what would your fit be? Yeah, what would my fit build your.

[A]

Because it's you. It's undeniable. Undeniable that our warriors and our boys look cool. So, like, what would you want? You've seen the special. Like, you've seen all the brands. Special ops.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you have. You have the company card. Uncle Sam.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Has given you carte blanche. Green light.

[C]

What do you play the clues video game?

[A]

Yeah. Right now.

[B]

But this is the thing. This is the thing that gives me the ick is like, playing into this. Playing into the, like, Special forces fetish.

[A]

I think in Like Inception when they're like, up in the Arctic, they look pretty sick. And like Goldeneye when they're like up, you know, in like northern Russia in like the all white camo type.

[B]

Okay, okay. I will say when I went to Eastern Costume, like the Warehouse where they clothe all the. Yeah. War movies, they had all the arc' teryx leaf stuff and they were like, we rent this out all the time for villains. Villains.

[A]

I thought it is for like, for like content creators to take fit pics.

[B]

No, they were like villains in movies.

[C]

Oh, no. Villains. She said villains. Those are.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

Evil people.

[B]

But they do look like Dr. Evil. They've got these like. They're like silver like Nehru collars. They do look fucking evil and they're awesome. So I kind of would want to look evil.

[C]

Bad guys didn't mean like a Marvel movie. Now they're like weird, like Eastern bloc generic, like paramilitary guys that has just become an archetype of like a villain.

[A]

In this day and age.

[C]

And they're all leaf that could dress like Bain. Yeah, it is the same thing.

[B]

Well, it's funny because then he showed me what the Russian military actually wears and it's is so go. It is. It is like so Eastern European. It's crazy.

[A]

They are in like what is like skin tight. Skin tight Armani.

[C]

It's tactical turtleneck.

[A]

Skin tight Emporio Armani.

[B]

It is like tracksuits. It's like they look like. They look like lads, really.

[C]

So fire.

[B]

It's crazy. Like, all that's missing are like the Adidas stripes.

[A]

Oh, my God. That is incredible.

[C]

That is a two on the nose tactical tracksuit.

[B]

Yeah, that's a tactical tracksuit. So, yeah, I guess if I were to do the special ops fetish, I would. I would steer away from the well. Okay. Have you ever seen what special ops look like in the 90s?

[C]

No, tell us.

[B]

It's so funny. You should look it up. They look like dads on a fishing trip. They're like skinny, wearing polo shirts. Really got these big goggles and they just look like normal guys, but they're like carrying rifles.

[A]

And now what is like Chris Pratt in like Zero Dark Thirty. It's so just like tan T shirt, cargo pants, boots.

[B]

It's so funny. Yeah.

[C]

These guys, it looks a little like anachronistic just based on what we know now. But they kind of still look cool, but more. More. But more dad. I mean, assuming that Google is right.

[B]

For these, I can send you other pictures too. But they're like, it's so. It's so funny. Yeah. They. The culture has. The aesthetic has changed a lot. So part of me is like, I.

[A]

Want to bring back vibe, shift the.

[B]

Old school and be like, oh, I'm taking it retro. I'm doing like the 90s special.

[A]

I'm going to Kevlar Polo. Yeah.

[C]

Super specific question, what sunglasses do special ops guy wear now? Oakley. Who makes the.

[A]

The eyewear thistles?

[B]

I don't know. I'm sorry.

[C]

That was the one where I'm just like, yeah. What are, what is the shade?

[B]

If you go to us patriot, I [e-mail].

[C]

Okay.

[A]

You're about to get some crazy. You're about to get some crazy IG ads.

[B]

Yeah, there's some.

[C]

All right. US patriot.com it I don't know. It's not loading. Oh, here we go.

[B]

Yeah. So these are the kinds of places that are considered like quote unquote surplus stores anymore, even though they're not surplus stores.

[C]

Yeah, Oakley's here.

[B]

Yeah. But this is where like a special ops guy would like get his stuff.

[C]

They're all gas station sunglasses, honestly, which is not really.

[A]

Those are the Tyler Robinsons right there.

[C]

Yeah, the Oakley standard issue. Yeah. This is what Tyler Robinson was wearing.

[A]

Camo DOP kit. What I'm doing. Have to shave out.

[C]

I mean. Yeah. These are exactly what you guys all think or like American optical standard, like. Yeah. Okay, cool.

[B]

It's not. It's not. It's not really the coolest thing were the boots. The boots. Honestly, I almost bought some tactical boots. They're really cool. And they were in like multi cam. They're really nice.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So kind of like the overarching through line of this season is like how the military and has. Has led to outdoors gear and kind of how that has influenced just like, you know, the sartorial choices we make day to day. What are some ways that the military's influence our day to day lives clothing wise that people might not even be aware of? Obviously camo. Obviously a tactical. But like just a guy getting dressed might be really.

[B]

The military invented layers. Holy.

[A]

They invented drips.

[B]

And they invented it with. From the outdoor industry. Like they hired outdoor consultants to teach them what how to layer.

[A]

Like, like outdoor bush experts.

[B]

Yeah, well, they. They hired Eddie Bauer like the guy. They hired like the man Leon. Leon would bean.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And they taught the. And you can see how new the layering principle was because in jackets from like the 40s and 50s, there are instructions for how to use layering on the inside. Because people were like, what? What is this? So if you think of, like, the field jacket, like the 1940s field jacket, like, classic military jacket.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was, like. To them, that was like peak gorpy. That was part of a system. It had an under layer. It had a rain layer. This was like, what? This was so new. And now we're like, yeah, layering. You know, obviously you like putting. Put things in layers, but if you think about World War I, everybody was wearing these, like, long wool coats. You either put them on and you're super hot, or you take them off and you're freezing. So the military and, like, because of the outdoor industry, they invented layering. Like, this collaboration.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Changed the way we all.

[C]

The best collab of all time. When you really think about it, if you put that on crossover.

[A]

Eddie Bauer, ex Teddy Roosevelt.

[B]

Jesus. It's like it changed. It fundamentally changed.

[A]

Oh, CPO shirts. Oh, there you go.

[C]

Oh, pe.

[A]

PE Coats are from the Navy.

[B]

Whoa.

[C]

Damn. So, like, literally before that, guys didn't know how to wear a sweater and a shirt.

[A]

Everyone's too hot or too cold.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Holy.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That's crazy.

[B]

And then they were like, oh, my God, the wool gets so wet. When it's wet out, like, it sucks, you know? And, like, the trenches. That's why the trenches were so miserable in World War I.

[A]

But you with your boys singing songs, jerk it off to Letters From Home Together. You're drawing naked women on your plane to jerk off to. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

In society.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Boot camp. Boot camp. Click. This is what I was forgetting.

[A]

The rap crew.

[B]

Yeah. That's what I was forgetting earlier when I was like, I'm working on the episode about.

[C]

Okay, got it.

[B]

Yeah. How fashion was getting.

[A]

Got it.

[C]

Ah, I see.

[A]

Is a country's military power directly related to its swag? And if so, is China next up in fashion?

[B]

So that's a really good question because it is very indicative of where a country is. Is at. Like, when the American military began, we just kind of copied other militaries for a long time.

[C]

Posers.

[B]

Yeah. We were like, who's in swagger, Jackers. Yeah. Who's. Who's in the lead?

[A]

So not the British. You.

[B]

But in the.

[A]

Beat your ass. But in the beginning, we beat them.

[C]

Scoreboard.

[B]

But in the beginning, we were like, daddy. And so we just. We were like, oh, daddy, we'll just.

[C]

Make the red coats a different color and just go with that, because that's what we did.

[A]

Lafayette copied the French.

[B]

Yeah. And then. Well, then we did, like, in the Civil War, we're wearing these, like, jaunty little French hats. And then we have this really weird phase, which is my favorite, favorite favorite phase, which is when we copy the Prussians. And we're wearing these, like, feathered hats. And what is that? Like, like 1870s. And we have these little, like, those, like, hats that Otto von Bismarck where we wore these really fancy shit.

[C]

A spike.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was like a humiliation ritual for the defeated Confederacy.

[B]

Like, you guys lost.

[A]

You got to wear this terrible. You got to wear this dumb shit.

[B]

After the Civil War, we wore some dumb shit. It was. It was really funny. So we were looking around for the longest time being like, who's in the lead and copying them? And then basically During World War II, we sort of come into our own.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then, well, during the Spanish American War, really, we start to come into our own. We're sort of copying the British. We're sort of copying the British colonial garb in world. In the Spanish American War. And we kind of come into our own in World War II. And the interesting thing is that's the moment where we start using scientific testing. It's the first moment where we're not copying another country. We're kind of looking at our own soldiers. We're using scientific testing. You know, ideally, this is, like, the democratic ideal. We're looking at our own citizens. This is not just what some general wants. It's not imitating some other country. We're doing, like, what's best for. For our people.

[A]

What did scientific testing on gear look like in the 1890s?

[B]

Well, now, this is like the 1940s.

[A]

I thought we talked about Spanish American War.

[B]

Okay, Spanish American War. We're just. We're. We're, like, copying the British. So that's when we switch. Our color was always blue until the Spanish American War, and then we switched to khaki because we're copying the British. And then During World War II, this is when we start getting into. Into scientific testing. That's when we start developing the field jacket. And this is when the military invents, like, lab laboratories. We have, like, a cold room, a hot room. We're hiring outdoorsmen. We're putting soldiers on treadmills. And they're starting to be like, the field of physiology has already been invented. But no one was testing, like, clothes. No one was like, oh, how. How much heat can this jacket withstand? How much sweat can this. How much rain can this, you know, poncho withstand? And so they're test. The military is testing gear, and they're developing mannequins to test, you know, how hot does this jacket? Does this jacket retain heat? They're getting, like, really granular. And then they're putting it on certain battalions of soldiers. They're collecting feedback. It's really granular. It's sort of amazing.

[C]

Like, we're the first to do that.

[B]

We're the first to do this. No one's done this. Every other nation in the world is like, fighting in their long wool overcoats. And so there are moments like this where I'm like, like, that's so cool. Like, there are moments in this because.

[C]

They cared about the boys, where you.

[B]

Get a little patriotic. Yeah, that's kind of awesome.

[A]

The Nazis might have looked cooler. We had better performance gear.

[B]

100. And then. But then the interesting thing is about every new fashion, it looks weird. Like, this is the first time you get like gorpy stuff. You get like scientific looking stuff. And there are some generals who are like, what is this?

[A]

Boys are looking a little sus.

[B]

Because it doesn't look like a suit. You know, everyone's used to a soldier looking like a suit. And so it becomes. There are some generals who are like, I will not have my boys.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

And then they all get trench foot. And it's actually a huge problem. It's called the cold weather crisis. It's a huge problem that some generals will not put the boys in the scientifically proven stuff. And it's a. It's a catastrophe. But because of that, this is the triumph of gear.

[A]

Did we lose any big battles? Because the general's like, no, I don't with that. I don't with that. I'm not trying to put that on.

[B]

We didn't necessarily lose any battles, but there was a lot of suffering.

[A]

But we won the war because of.

[C]

Clothing, because of gear.

[B]

We on the whole.

[A]

And spirit.

[B]

It's because it's. It's arguable that, like, it's because our army was like, better provisioned, better fed, better clothed. Like, we were just better taken care of.

[A]

Logistics maybe.

[B]

Yeah. Because of our quartermaster shout out to the project managers. It's our division that like, clothes and feeds the military. But that was the moment that we were like that, like gear one that was more about Gear one that was more about looking gorpy than it was about, like, looking gentlemanly. And ever since, it's been like, that's the look. Yeah, it's all about looking gorpy.

[C]

And now everyone. So everyone copied us.

[B]

And then everybody copied us ever since. And so who knows? It could be China. Like, it's all. It's always about who's in charge, innovating. It's always about, like, what's the world power? And everybody looks to them. And so this is the thing. This is kind of what I've been interested in, in this idea of, like, do we need war? You know, when I was talking to the defense editor of the Economist, he was like, look, maybe if we enter a more peaceful period, America is going to be living in a world that. That's more like what the rest of the world lives in, where, like, you're not on top anymore, which is like. That's how the rest of the world lives.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like, you're just seems like.

[A]

That seems like that reality's fast approaching.

[B]

Yeah. It's like. And you're gonna have to see what it's like when, like, you're not in charge anymore. And it's just gonna be a rude awakening.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But this is what it's gonna look like when you don't have the military might. I was like, oh, and it's gonna change. He's making some points and it's going to change stuff. Well, it's going to change a lot of things, but also probably sartorial. Sartorially.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Buy less, buy better. Well, if. If the. If the golden age of American science really did help us to feed and clothe and take care of our boys, which led to us winning World War II, which led to the current, you know, I guess, global superpower, our positioning in hierarchy, where we are currently, I think, still at the top.

[B]

Close for.

[C]

Now, 1A, 1B with China, probably.

[A]

And then that directly fed into the outdoors industry and. And how, you know, we. We are at this current moment that you investigate where it's like, how enmeshed they truly are. What is the single most influential piece of outdoors gear on modern menswear?

[B]

Probably the field jacket. Yeah, I will say probably the field jacket, because everything has a version of it. Everybody's. Prada's made a version of it. Old Navy's made a version of it. Everybody's made a version of the field jacket. And it's like the. It's the precursor to everything. It's probably the field jacket.

[C]

And the field jacket was invented to have what, just like, kind of like compartment. Like compartment, like pockets.

[B]

Compartments.

[C]

It's modular in a way.

[B]

Pockets, layers, modular. It's like, long enough that you can, like, raise your arms and it won't ride up. It's just like, it's the. It's the jacket that's sort of in between for all seasons.

[C]

Who invented the field jacket?

[B]

The name of the two designers actually escapes me right now. But it's two. Yeah, it's like two designers. Yeah.

[C]

Mr. Fields, did they invent it for brand?

[B]

No, it's like for the military. Oh, it was designers.

[C]

Oh, I see.

[B]

In the military.

[A]

Is Annette at the creative director of the military? Is she still, like, inventing garments? Like, are we about to see some we ain't never seen before?

[B]

It's like directives come to her, you know? But there are still some things that, like, it is still the military. Like, if a. If a high ranking general wants something, he still kind of gets it, you know, like, there was a change recently for. Okay, so you know how I said that there was like a general who's like, I don't like these M43. I don't like these. These field jackets. They're tacky.

[A]

Yeah. They should wear suits.

[B]

They should wear suits. He liked these sort of Eisenhower looking jackets.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And he was trying to put the boys in, like, Eisenhower jackets to fight Nazis in the winter.

[A]

What a dork.

[B]

The boys were like, he loved American Ivy. He loved America. He went to West Point.

[A]

Yeah. My boys used to look like they're at Yale.

[B]

And it's so crazy because he was best friends with Eisenhower. And Eisenhower's like, I'm gonna take on this jacket. Like, I. I think my guy is right.

[A]

And then fucking prep.

[B]

And then now there's been this great return to the Eisenhower jacket. Like, in the field for dress like the fancy. Right. If you look at how military dress is today, there's been a return to what they call colloquially the pinks and greens jeans, which is basically the Eisenhower jacket. It's back. It's a perfect replica of the Eisenhower jacket. And that was sort of like a demand from a general. Prep is like, that was not Annette's decision.

[C]

But that's for, like, existing in society, not on the battlefield. Right.

[B]

That's not for the battlefield. Right.

[C]

So that's just.

[B]

That's like when I went to the. When I went to the trade show, like, everybody was in there, like, pinks and greens. But it's like, I think it's trying to bring a little old school gravitas back. Funny that, like, I mean, it looks good. It does look good. But that's. But that's. The funny thing is, like, even though there's a designer, at the end of the day, if a general wants it If a high ranking general wants it, it still happens. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Let's look like we used to look when we were, when we were on top. Yeah, yeah, it just looked like it. What's been the latest, at least that you're privy to, like battlefield advancement in terms of garments? Like, what is the newest thing that got rolled out that is like, like, I mean, I know we're not like necessarily deployed, you know, or in active battle, but like, what, what's the latest garment that is like rolled out onto the battlefield?

[B]

Well, there's a new cold weather system that's I think currently being rolled out. I don't know the most about that.

[A]

It keeps you warm.

[B]

It keeps you warm. It's pretty great. Keeps you warm. There was a long time cold weather system. They're updating it now.

[C]

2.0.

[A]

Damn. We really are about to fight for shipping lanes in the Arctic, huh?

[C]

I know, it's like roll out the new loadout.

[B]

But you know the story about like, you know about multicam, like the camouflage.

[A]

Not in what you're about to tell us, I imagine different type of multi cam.

[B]

So you know about Cry Precision, they're in the Navy yard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So Cry Precision, they're kind of amazing. They make, they make all kinds of special ops gear and they're right here. And they're founded by some guys who went to Cooper Union, like art students. And they, you know, multicam is in like the permanent collection at MoMA. It's like highbrow. And the thing that they created was basically they started their company while they were still in school and it was around 2,000. And the problem, the problem was we were getting into too many different wars in too many different places, and we couldn't make enough camouflage for all of them. And it was getting too complicated because, you know, you can issue. We were kind of issuing camouflage. Sort of began around Vietnam because you had these special ops guys who were like painting on their own camouflage in.

[A]

The, in the, in the jungle.

[B]

In the jungle. And then people sort of caught on that this was a good idea. And so they started doing like new drops for every war and that. You couldn't like update all the gear. Right. Everybody. So you'd have this like woodland camo, you know.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Plate carrier. And then you'd have like a tiger stripe shirt. It's like, oh, no, your camo doesn't match.

[A]

Sort of like Desert Storm exclusive, just dropped.

[B]

And then it like defeats the purpose if your camos don't match. And so they had this actually really Smart idea that was like, what if we had one camo for everywhere? And it kind of reminds me of the line from Anchorman. They say it's a 75% solution. It's like 70%, 75% kind of works all the time.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Or whatever.

[B]

But it. But it also is really viable for a place like Afghanistan, which has really variable terrain. It's got hills, it's got lowlands, it's got forests, wrists. And a soldier can't, like, keep carrying different kinds of camo.

[A]

Outfit change.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And so they submit multicam to the government, and they're like, we have this idea for camo. The government's like, never mind. We've got an idea for camo. And they introduce this pattern of camouflage that everybody hates. And they're like, this is our idea. This is our one camo. It doesn't work. It's terrible. Everybody hates it. It's called the universal camouflage pattern. It's not universal. It just doesn't work every. Anywhere. Everybody hates it. Everybody hates it.

[C]

It's universal in that it works nowhere.

[B]

It works nowhere.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like digital. It's called the ucp. And it just looks white. It just, like, sticks out everywhere. So everybody who could change.

[C]

Oh, yeah, this is.

[B]

It sucks.

[C]

Look at him right over there.

[B]

Yeah. It's like. Yeah. Oh, hello. And it's like, it's. It's repeatable. It repeats. So you can just see as soon as you find one guy, like, boom. There is. There's everybody else.

[C]

The military spent 5 billion on this, and it was a brick.

[B]

It's. It's horrible.

[C]

Thank you, taxpayers.

[A]

And so Antwerp 6 on it.

[B]

Yeah. So the. The. So everybody who could have the option to not wear this immediately did, which is the special ops guys. And multicam was already sort of embedded in the special ops community. They buy multicam, they put down their. They plunk down their credit cards, they buy multicam. And the. The funny thing is there's like, this fashion cycle because everybody in the military is like, oh, my God, the special ops guys, they're so cool.

[A]

They're like. They're the. They're the fashion influencers.

[B]

They're the influencers.

[A]

And so get ready with me to go to war.

[B]

They. And they. And there's this other thing that happens. They do become the influencers because there used to be this kind of, like, code of secrecy. There used to be this, like, the honor of the seals. And during the war on terror, there's this kind of encouragement for SEALs to, like, get on Social media and like tell their story. Because the first, the thing that kind of breaks through to this is the book, the 2007 book Lone Survivor, which is paid for and the movie. The author Mark Luttrell is given book leave by the US taxpayer to write this book.

[A]

You jealous?

[B]

Yeah, a little bit. And yes. And so there's this like encouragement to kind of like gin up support.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For the war. Because these in this, in this war on terror, that's sort of like, what are we doing here? What is this? The special ops guys are like a fun story and an easy story because they're bad. It's much more easy to cling on to the idea of like, like buff guy with a beard killing Osama Bin Lad.

[C]

Like Super Soldier.

[B]

Super Soldier. These stories are so graspable. They give you like a beginning and a middle and an end and a hero in this war that's like what's happening. So the US military is like encouraging what was a secret to like share their stories.

[A]

We need content creators.

[B]

So they're like. And you, that's how you get like these like Eddie Gallagher, these like public facing figures. So Special Ops are being used more, they're being pushed more and they have these bigger budgets and so they're. And they're like multicam is part of the look. Multicam is to the four. So multicam is in these movies. Multicam is in Call of Duty. You know, everybody is like seeing multicam. It spreads. And so the, the army uses this shitty camouflage pattern for like five years. And then, you know, Obama kind of wants a rebrand on Afghanistan. They're like, we're out of Iraq. That was a debacle. Like now we're back where we need to be, we want to rebrand. So they start like buying off the rack. Multicam cry is making a ton of money and like quick just like get everybody in multicam. And then they put out, the government puts out their own version of multicam.

[A]

The dupe.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Ocp, the operational camouflage pattern, the cargoes you have. And so that's their all purpose camouflage pattern. And it's a little bit more brown, Multicam is a little more green. But it's pretty effective. Like you can look at that, they look pretty similar.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then it was interesting when I asked the, the folks at the laboratory, at the government laboratory, I was like.

[C]

So I was like nearly identical.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But are you ready for the twist?

[C]

Yes, please.

[B]

So I asked the folks at the government, I was like, so what do you think of multicam? And they were like, well, you know, we helped make that. They say that they invited cry in like 2004 to work with them and that together they made a pattern called Scorpion and that it's the root of both of their patterns. So it really shows the pitfalls of working with the government because it's like, it's kind of a toss up. Right? Like, who's right? These art students who you could say, you know, the government, like, wasn't using their work, so they took it and then the government kind of stole it back. Or you could say the government invested time and research and resources into this and they shouldn't have to, like, have the American taxpayer license it out to this company.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's really like, yeah, I don't.

[A]

Know, some art students or the US Government kind of a. I don't trust either of them, to be honest.

[B]

I don't know. It's crazy.

[A]

I've been over by both and I'm like, I.

[B]

And I. I'm very skeptical of everybody. I'm very skeptical.

[A]

How high up does this go?

[C]

Right?

[B]

I don't know. And I'm like, where's Scorpion? I just want to look at Scorpion.

[C]

Which is not available to the public. Is that a proprietor? Oh, Scorpion.

[A]

How does every. How do they have such sick names for their clothes?

[B]

I know. Why didn't they just.

[A]

This is the field jacket. Who do you.

[C]

You don't.

[A]

These are my pink and greens.

[B]

Who.

[C]

What's your gut tell you? Who do you believe is actually the inventor of multicam?

[B]

I mean, I do believe. I believe they both worked on Scorpion.

[A]

So did Cry Fisher get out of like a billion, billion billions of dollars if they could.

[B]

I mean, Cry is doing fine.

[A]

Yeah, but they could have sold the. They could have sold the IP of the patent to the government for like, like a trillion. A billion dollars? No. Damn.

[C]

Scorpion.

[A]

Instead of. Instead of basically infiltrating it through the content. Fashion influencers at the Secret Ops guys. Yeah, them. Everyone being like, oh, these guys must know what they're doing. I'm influenced. I'm going to buy this. The government being like, oh, man, we up. This OPC is gra. Is trash.

[B]

Yeah, it's true. Or the government could have been wise to what they had in the beginning. Yeah, it's. Yeah. I don't know.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

But also, on the other hand, I'm. I. I'm like, I don't think the taxpayer should have to pay a licensing fee because the government is well within its right, you know?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The truth is Camouflaged.

[C]

What's the current temp check on digi camo? People with digi camo. I remember. That was, like, a big thing, right?

[B]

Yeah. I don't know what happened to that. I don't know what was up with that. And, like. Like. Well, it's funny.

[C]

It's like retrofuturism almost. It was.

[B]

Exactly. And, like, was that supposed to blend in with anything?

[A]

Like, look, I'm on a computer screen.

[C]

Yeah, if you were in Tron, maybe. If you're fighting intron. Yeah.

[B]

The funny thing is, I'm not.

[A]

You're hacking into someone's, you know, network.

[C]

It looked cool.

[B]

It did look cool. The funny thing is, I'm not sure how much camo is, like, supposed to work well, because I also went.

[C]

Hopefully all of it.

[B]

Well, the funny thing is, I went hunting. I shot a gun for the first time.

[A]

Congrats.

[B]

Thanks. Have you shot a gun?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Make you feel big.

[B]

It was fun. Did you.

[A]

Did you kill a guy? Yeah.

[C]

Who did you shoot?

[B]

I. It's like. I can see how it'd be fun.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

It was like. It hurt.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like your shoulder?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's an aggressive thing. It's.

[A]

What kind of gun was it?

[B]

The rifle?

[A]

Were you hunting game?

[B]

Like, clay pigeons.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Have you shot, like, a thing? Did you shoot an animal?

[A]

No, I never shot an animal. Wait, you were hunting?

[C]

I've never taken a life.

[B]

Yeah, I think if I took a life, I would take.

[A]

Wait, you're wearing camo while skeet shooting? Because that's. That's kind of boot. That's kind of boot.

[B]

It is a little boot as.

[C]

Dude.

[B]

No, I was. I was just talking to this hunting instructor about camo, and he was talking about how it, like, doesn't really matter depending on the animal because, like, deer are colorblind.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

You know, and, like. Like, yeah, have. And then turkeys have, like, really good vision, so you have to be in, like, a ghillie suit or, like, hiding.

[A]

And so gilly suits are kind of sick.

[B]

They are sick. But that's the thing. It's like. So if you're wearing, like, a camouflage shirt, what are you doing that for? You know, it's yourself. Exactly. It's the fashion.

[A]

What's up with orange camos? That's supposed to be, like, if you're in a fire, that.

[B]

That's. That's for deer hunting. You know, that's for other hunters.

[A]

Oh, that's for other people to see you.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

So that you don't get. So it's By Dick Cheney.

[A]

So it's camouflaged, but it's also as bright as possible for other people to be able to see you. Because it is like orange, but it's like orange black and. And like it's not, but like Dear.

[B]

Colorblind, they want, like, what?

[C]

Dipset War. Yeah.

[A]

What. What, what's his name? Wore in Lost in Translation.

[C]

Bill Murray. The shirt, it's. That was like yellow, orange, inside out.

[A]

It was inside out.

[C]

Yeah. So was it inside out. Rothko shirt, famously, that he wore a ringer tee in Lost in Translation as part of one of the fits.

[B]

So long.

[C]

Anyway, it's. I think that's just fashion. That's just fashion, yeah.

[B]

He was like, you could wear an optical illusion.

[A]

Yeah. I think it does help break up, like, your single mass of a body totally from a distance for another human.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. So they can't, like, focus on, like. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, but he was. You know, the most important thing is like, radar protection. Like, the pattern is sort of like.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Less important. It's now like, okay. As a helicopter.

[C]

Oh, right.

[A]

You gotta block your infant for the drones.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

The pattern can only do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So much.

[A]

I need my dune suit to turn my piss into humidity and water condensation. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

What's up with the. You haven't mentioned Rothco at all. And I feel like they're like the kid. They. At least in my mind as a novice, they're like the kings of this. What is their deal right now?

[B]

They're like. I don't know, they're like the knockoff brand.

[A]

Oh, really?

[C]

Yeah, they were never. They were never valid.

[B]

If you go to any surplus store now, it's just like. Like everything is knockoff militaria. You know, everything is like M83 style stuff. It's either like that website, the US Patriot or whatever.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, cut. There are three things. Okay. No, there are four things. The Army Navy surplus store is sort of dead in its wake are either stores that sell, like, Rothco and what is it? Alpha Industries.

[C]

Alpha Industries.

[B]

And they're making, like, new, cheap 20th century imitation militaria that you can buy in these places that look like dusty 20th century military surplus stores, or they're like high end, actual purveyors of like, we have actual 1940s, 1960s overpriced militaria, or there are places that actually have special ops, modern tactical special ops stuff for like, you know, this $400 rain jacket. Or there's actual military surplus, which is what the military is actually getting rid of. And that's like an auction site where you could buy, like, a boat and they have, like, a battleship. Yeah. You can buy, like, a plane. You can buy some silverware.

[A]

Let's go.

[B]

They have, like, Afghan rugs and, like, daggers and, like, I looked last night, they were selling, like, one pair of Jimmy Choo high heels. Like, this is what the military is actually getting rid of and why. They've great deals on, like, watches. Definitely. Check it out.

[A]

Like Rolexes or like.

[B]

A lot of, like, Bauman Mercer. Like, like mid range. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

All right.

[C]

They used to wear subs. They don't.

[A]

I know. I'm going to go Apple watch. Go shopping. Buy some opium.

[B]

They have.

[A]

They have, like, US Government.

[B]

It's like. It's like weird, like, sad bachelor stuff. It's like dumbbell sets and blenders and it's like, what the military actually wants to get rid of. But I was tempted by the fire truck.

[A]

Dodge Charger.

[B]

Yeah. It's really weird. So those are. That's, like, what military surplus actually is.

[A]

Okay. Kind of sad.

[B]

It is a little. And there's no clothes on the actual military surplus. I was like, jackets? Any jackets? No jackets. Because a lot of these are like, like.

[A]

Just guys. Companies, just, you know, just veterans that are trying to, like, sell their.

[B]

No, it's the Department of Defense. It's like, this is the leftover we have.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

This is an old lender from the base.

[B]

Like, from the base. Like, this is what we have. And pretzels. And then, like, you know, when I talk to these comp. When I talk to, like, outdoor research or cry or these places that do it, they're like, we don't make extra clothes. Like, we might have extra materials, but it's like, we're a company. It's like, whoops, we made too many jackets. Like, we had so many extra jackets from World War II because the Manhattan Project was a secret and no one saw it coming. We made so many extra things because we thought we were going to invade Japan. Yeah. And that the war was going to go on for, like, three more years.

[A]

Did. Was it cod. Did those jacket manufacturers get paid for the jackets? They made that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, the Quartermaster Corps was, like, full speed ahead, boys. Like, we think this is, like, going on, so 20th century. What?

[A]

Nothing.

[C]

Nothing.

[B]

Sorry. You're so good at jokes.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no.

[C]

I missed that one, too. Don't worry about it.

[B]

Okay. It's like. Yeah. So mil. Like, 20th century military surplus was like.

[A]

But now it is literally like we need. It's. It's pre order. Yo, make us 4, 000 jackets here.

[B]

Totally, totally. And so anything that's like surplus is like you could buy it at a place. Like you could buy surplus us at U. S Patriot. But it's like, you know, it's like outlet. It's like the same way an outlet store has surplus. Like, oh, we made extra orders for.

[C]

Like, are they defective? Like where does defective go? Because you can't go to the military.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

Or does it.

[B]

That's.

[C]

That'll be a huge scandal. That's like happened with body armor and stuff before.

[B]

Right.

[C]

If you have a private contract and you sell, you know, defective whatever.

[B]

Right.

[C]

You're a federal criminal.

[B]

Yeah. Entry has gotten in trouble for that. From earplugs? No, it's. I mean, I talked to outdoor research. They're like, we've made surplus and then we just like release it on our website. You know, like you can just buy. You could buy. That's the thing. It's not hard to get. You just search for so many outdoor places. You just like search tactical and like there it is. And you can just buy it. It's not like a big secret, but I think it's become swaggy because it's expensive. It's like you're paying for American labor and fancier stuff. It's like luxury. And also it's sleek. It's in black, you know, or tan. It's not nice.

[A]

Avery, with all this outdoor, now that you're an outdoors gear expert, what do you wear when it's raining?

[B]

This is the funny thing. I keep like being an expert in this that I'm really not interested in. Like I'm not a preppy person and I'm not a gear person.

[A]

So what do you wear? What do you wear when it's raining?

[B]

I have like a little, like a little rain hood that I wear. Yeah. Cuz I was at a wedding and I saw this amazing like this swaggy little septuagenarian lady put on her little rain hood in the rain and I was like, that is so cute.

[A]

What about her shoulders and her torso?

[C]

You call an Uber. You call an Uber.

[B]

You call an Uber. That's what. Yeah.

[A]

You only wear a hood when it's raining?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Protect the hair and then keep it pushing.

[A]

You don't know. Do you own any outdoors gear?

[B]

No.

[A]

Really?

[B]

I'm not an outdoorsy person.

[C]

You're an indoorsy person?

[B]

I'm an indoor cat. Yeah. No, I do my. I have my little aerobics class that I do with the ladies in the neighborhood, and that's outdoors course. But I. I am not. I am not a big. I'm not a big hiker.

[A]

You know, rough it.

[B]

I. I like a rock scramble.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I think I always. You know, it was very comforting because I always did feel a little weird about this idea that, like, you go out into nature and then you come back. I love taking, like, long walks in the city and, like, I bike everywhere. Like, I love.

[A]

Do you bike in your regular clothes, or are you one of these? Like.

[B]

No, but I'm not one of those, like, liker.

[A]

I need my commuter. My commuter johns.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I love. I love being like, Ron Levi's had.

[A]

Like, a commuter subline.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. With the.

[C]

I did like those, but that was definitely, like. I don't know how effective that was because they're just, like, still jeans.

[B]

But they had the reflective thing on the inner tape.

[C]

Yeah. On the salvage or whatever.

[B]

I like those.

[A]

And it was like. It was a little extra long in the butts when you bent over. You didn't see your butt crack when you're, you know, cycling away.

[B]

No. I love that. I think it's so cute. I love, like, biking in heels, biking in a dress. Like, I think it is so city.

[A]

Bike or your bike?

[B]

Perform.

[C]

You're performative. We go. Ladies and gentlemen, we got her. We found the one.

[B]

It's just my life. It's just the way I live.

[C]

It's a movie. It's a movie, and you're the main character.

[A]

Avery, as a fellow podcaster, we got to ask you. Just this past summer, it's October. It's like, a few months ago, Rolling Stone declared that the narrative podcast is.

[B]

Is dead. Long live the narrative podcast.

[A]

So why do you continue to slave away and stay inside and live in the Pro Tools foxhole doing real journalism, when it's so much easier to just sit down and talk like some people we know?

[B]

I don't have a co host.

[C]

I'm sure there's people lining up to fill that spot if you put it out there.

[A]

You and Greg.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah, Greg's on board.

[B]

I don't know. Maybe I will. Who knows how much longer I can do this? I'm just gonna ride it till the wheels run off.

[A]

So you already know next season, right?

[B]

Who knows if I can get money for it? I don't know. I. I truly.

[A]

What's your Venmo, everyone? Venmo Avery, $1.

[C]

Let's crowdsource this bitch.

[B]

Yeah, I really don't know. I mean, I love doing this stuff. I find it very, like, life affirming. And I kind of can't believe I'm still able to do it.

[A]

It's certainly resonating. I mean.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You're named times 100 greatest podcasts of all time. Do you agree, though, that any list about the greatest podcast of all time is absolute, or do you agree with these lists because you were on said list?

[B]

I think it's kind of a, like, tombstone for the narrative podcast.

[C]

Oh, they're like, let's throw.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's kind of like. And this is the epitaph. I think that was sort of like. And it's over.

[C]

Were you sure shocked when you saw your inclusion amongst some of the greats? Like, yeah, it was the worst. Other. What are some of the best was on there?

[A]

Like, Joe Rogan.

[B]

Yeah, Joe.

[C]

With some of the greats. Like, Joe Rogan.

[B]

I was like, all these shows have been discontinued.

[A]

It was very like, oh, is it, like, serial? And like. Yeah, I was like, I mean, I did it. I did a, you know, control f. Throwing fits. Nothing. Okay.

[B]

Because you're close. Because you're still kicking. You're not dead yet.

[A]

No, but so are you.

[C]

I think they're.

[B]

I think. But they don't know. They didn't know my next season was coming out. They were like, and she's dead.

[C]

That's not why they put you on there. I don't think it was, like, an immemorial. I think it was just like, you're a game changer.

[A]

Some podcast we lost this year.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's. It's fine. You know, the way I see it is it's always been a little embarrassing to be a podcaster.

[A]

Facts. How do you. How do you. How do you know if something. If like a season or an episode is successful? Is it the listens? Is it the reception? Obviously, it's not the receptions or the reaction of social media. Do you get, like, people on the street coming up to you now? Because the last season.

[B]

Right. Because it's American Ivy and the season.

[A]

Came out, American Ivy made waves. Like, the timing was spot on. I think, like, I think military as.

[C]

Well as the creator loved it, apparently, Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So moments like that, I'm like, oh, I think this thing hit. Yeah, well, we'll. We'll see. You know, like, there's always this weird moment, especially because these things are, like, so long. You kind of have to wait for everybody to listen to it. And I know I kind of demand a lot of the listener too. Like. Yeah, I know they're not easy listening. You kind of gotta like plop yourself down and like, listen. So it always takes a while for like the feedback to come. And there's always this like period of months where I'm like, where do you.

[A]

Where are you seeing the feedback?

[B]

I. I just like hear it eventually, but it takes like some weeks and I'm. And it's usually very.

[A]

You want to handwriting letters like Carrie Pigeon. I'm just saying you're not. You're not really online. No, I'm online.

[C]

She's on X.

[B]

I'm on Sub stack. I'm.

[C]

You're around.

[A]

How's the cruise guy do these days?

[B]

It's so like sexless. It's so like more.

[C]

Yeah. More sexist than other social media.

[B]

Exactly. It's so clean. It's so like, like sanitize.

[C]

Sounds terrible.

[B]

Sanitize. But.

[A]

But I bet you don't see a single person getting beheaded, you know, in a week.

[C]

Yeah. You don't see any murders on Blue Sky Twitter.

[A]

Just murder and porn. It's crazy.

[B]

No anti Semitic hashtags.

[C]

But to your.

[B]

I don't get my fix there.

[C]

To your point about like having a listenership that is. That and they are actively listening. Right. And that's what your show demands. When like Rolling Stone writes that piece. It's not like I don't. It's not like a trend in like the medium. It's like you're just kind of at the behest of the people that are listening. So like for a chit chat show, it's just so easy. So it's not like your fault. It's not like you're putting out a compelling product. It's just that people have fucking no attention spans. Like, let's be real. What you're doing is good, real journalism. And it's not that people don't want to hear it, it's just that they don't know how to because their brains have devolved.

[B]

I don't. I think I've also just made my piece of being like, I'm not for everybody. You know, I'm not trying to be Alex Cooper, who I love, by the way. I think she's very good at her job. I just think that, like, I've never been. I've never been trying to be for everybody. I love my. I love the people who listen. I think it's so cool. It's like, for a smaller audience.

[C]

But you really think what you're doing is dying Straight up. Like, you're like, I'm doing this straight up.

[B]

Really straight up.

[A]

But I think there's a difference between what you're doing and then, like, what, like, cereal was where that was like such a high cost production. And like, great. Like, that's kind of what I think was to them was like the death knell of the narrative podcast. Which, again, disagree. But it's like Pineapple Street Studios closing. But that's a business thing. It's like, okay, they got bought by what, Spotify. And then Spotify and dumped all this money into their podcast division. And then they're like, actually, we're, we're, you know, it's constricting our podcast division. All these layoffs. We're canceling all these shows. Like, that's the business side of it. Not necessarily like the actual content that you're getting and producing.

[B]

No, that's true. And that's. And I think that's why I keep it lean, you know, that's why it's always just been me. And the metaphor that I've always had in my mind is I feel like I've. I've always felt like I've been canoeing over the ocean, which is like, why am I doing this? This feels crazy. And it feels like a lot of work. And for a while it felt like there were these ocean liners next to me, you know, like Pineapple and Spotify. And I was kind of jealous, you know, like, watching these giant ships. Ships go in the same direction as me, but now I watch them, like, crumbling and falling, and I'm like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[A]

You were able to paddle around the iceberg.

[B]

Yeah, but you can turn down my little canoe. Being like, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God.

[C]

Beautifully said, because I think that is. Look who's still here. Right? Look who's.

[B]

I'm still here. And it's like a pleasure to be here. And the, the work is the. Is the reward, even if it is exhausting.

[C]

Yeah. Sometimes that's what the money is for.

[A]

And the money that we're Venmoing you.

[B]

What's your Venmo Articles of interest.

[C]

How pathetic is that on Venmo. Find her on her favorite social media app, Venmo.

[A]

Your boy Alex got a $80 Venmo for OPC camo from articles of interest.

[C]

Ray. Ray, Wait, who bought the camo for you?

[A]

Store.

[B]

Oh, yeah, Alex. Yeah, sorry.

[A]

The merchant marine?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How much were they?

[B]

How much were they? They weren't expensive because it's, like, at the military sub. 100, like, cost? Yeah, I think so.

[A]

Hell, yeah.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. I normally call him by his last name, so I was like, alex. What. What's his.

[A]

What's his. Venmo. What's Venmo? Him.

[C]

Thank you for his service.

[B]

Alex back. Yeah. Thank you for your service. Avery.

[A]

The new season of Articles of Interest is out in two days. Before we get you out of here, because you got to. Well, the. Never mind. The episode's already edited and finished and locked.

[B]

That's right. It's done.

[A]

What is some constructive criticism you would like to give us?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What?

[C]

Yeah, you're the goat. We're just. We just. We're. We're in the wake of your platform.

[B]

That's my. That's my.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

Don't. You're so fawning. It's so sweet. It's really.

[A]

Oh, we're dick glazing.

[C]

So. Yeah. So it's like. It's a fancy way of saying we're glazers. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. We're deriding and glazing.

[C]

Wait, so you're saying we should. We should be. We know. We're being sincere. You don't. Oh, you don't believe us?

[B]

No, it's so sweet. I, I. I'm like. I'm so.

[C]

Be less sweet. So be meaner.

[A]

Meaner.

[C]

Be meaner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Don't Venmo her.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Give your money to us instead.

[B]

Yeah, do that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

No, it's really. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm genuinely.

[C]

We're always happy to have you. Happy to see you.

[B]

All the prep and the questions.

[A]

Oh, my God. Thank you so much. What would you like to plug?

[B]

Articles of interest. The gear season. Please, please consider.

[A]

Gets better.

[B]

Episode one starts in the 1800s, but it picks up. It picks up.

[A]

What? Come on.

[C]

Why do you say that?

[B]

Yeah, I'm just saying because it has to start in the 1800s, which is, like, okay, we're gonna get through this. But then it gets more interesting.

[A]

Yeah, but that's the American frontiersman. That's the outdoorsman.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's where, you know, American commerce begins with, like, posers that need to buy buckskin suits from guides. And the guides, men themselves, are fucking posers. And they're buying them from. From the indigenous women that are actually making them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a tale as old as time.

[C]

We'll get through sackage away and we'll get to.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Where can the kids follow you on your one? Social media on blue sky. Yeah.

[B]

What's my hand on blue sky? I'm on. I'm on sub stack.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

All her substack.

[B]

I'm on substack. Email me.

[A]

What's your email?

[C]

Right.

[B]

Find me on my website. All your list, your listeners found me, found me last time.

[A]

Okay, so do that again. Yeah, but do that again.

[C]

You don't need to bother this poor woman on our behalf.

[B]

Everyone's really nice. I know they like your listeners. They're really great.

[A]

Thank you. And they like you, Avery Truffman. Thank you for coming on to one of the only other the only other podcast that matters besides articles of the.

[B]

Only regular podcast that matters.

[C]

There we go. Thank you, chef.

[A]

Take us out.