The Nick Williams and Phil Ayers Interview with Throwing Fits

Summary

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Throwing Fits — The Nick Williams & Phil Ayers (Small Talk Studio) Interview

Release Date: April 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

This lively episode features Nick Williams and Phil Ayers, co-founders of New York’s Small Talk Studio, a brand known for its unique mix of hand-drawn graphics, custom textiles, and playful yet wearable menswear. The duo discusses the challenges and rewards of building an independent fashion label from the ground up in NYC’s Garment District, the evolution of their design philosophy, surviving and thriving as small business owners, and their candid thoughts on the ever-changing state of menswear. The tone is witty, self-deprecating, and relaxed, with deep dives into studio anecdotes, fashion victimology, the pitfalls of custom work, and how they keep clothing fun.

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Key Themes & Discussions

1. The Small Talk Studio Origin Story

• Early Days: Started during the pandemic as a side project, Small Talk picked up traction with press mentions and social shares.
• Transition to Partnership: Nick and Phil, former roommates, became business partners after recognizing growing demand (43:04–44:26).

  “It took off. It very quickly surpassed my own capacity to do that. And Phil and I had a good enough friendship, working relationship, respected each other's creative practice.” – Nick Williams (44:03)

2. Studio Culture & Operations

• Open-Door Policy & Studio Life: Their Garment District studio is a hub for drop-ins and appointments, but with some boundaries to avoid interruptions.
• Division of Labor: Phil leads on graphics and marketing; Nick focuses on design, production, and logistics (36:53–39:58).

  “Phil has heroically taken that [drawing] on single-handedly for the last two and a half years at least… Phil’s running Instagram, marketing; I’m doing more design and production.” – Nick Williams (36:53–39:58)

3. Design Ethos: Fun, Wearable, Playful

• Wear Testing Everything: Nick and Phil wear Small Talk daily, modeling their own lines and rigorously testing fits before launch (12:08–12:39).
• Balancing Quiet and Freaky: They strive to hit a sweet spot between playful, graphic-forward items and subtler, classic pieces.
• Suiting & Accessories: Hats and suiting are current bestsellers; their unique, relaxed suiting is designed to be less “stiff” than traditional options (23:08–25:21).

4. Menswear & “Fashion Victims”

• NYC as Inspiration and Caution: The hosts ask about fashion victim typologies—overly try-hard, credit-card-fueled kids, or those obsessed with looking “chill” but actually rigid (51:14–52:05).

  “You can, you know, when you see someone who's a try hard... There's a difference between taking risks and just having.” – Nick Williams (51:14)

• Reflections on the Industry: The team discusses how NYC indie brands get overlooked for larger, “legacy” names and the downsides of current minimal/quiet luxury trends (53:10–58:09, 76:25–80:14).

5. Getting Real About the Grind

• Brutal Days, Broke Days: Stories range from declined cards on dates because of business cash flow to failed attempts to redeem Chipotle vouchers for lunch (94:35–98:19).

  "Phil got the note. I would know where Nick was, what he was up to, and I would get an email…would have to bailout my boy out.” – Phil Ayers (95:25–95:47)

• Advice for New Designers: Take it slow; keep the day job as long as possible, as being small means doing the work of many roles (67:32–68:25).

6. Balancing Friendship & Business

• Never Fought (Yet): The two describe themselves as non-confrontational, with an even-keeled process for vetting “bad” ideas and maintaining a healthy dialogue (41:09–45:28).
• How They Handle Bad Ideas: “Let’s sleep on it and revisit tomorrow.” – Phil Ayers (45:02)
• Celebrating Each Other’s Strengths: Nick pushes “bad” ideas more often; Phil’s creative feedback comes in as gentle tweaks.

7. Creative Collaborations & Inspirations

• Artist Collabs: They love partnering with friends and admired artists for unique capsule features (70:11–71:12).
• Dream Collaborations: Our Legacy Workshop—a model of thoughtful, intentional partnership—is at the top of their wishlist (75:23–76:03).
• Celebrity Endorsements: Selena Gomez, Patrick Schwarzenegger, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar are among those spotted in Small Talk, but the business impact varies (71:12–73:33).

8. The Business of Fashion—Retail, Trends, & Knock-Offs

• Stockists & Retail Approach: Local NYC stores (Colbo, Cueva & Sun, Blue in Green, Chad, etc.) are top supporters. In Japan, playful graphics are hot sellers (81:25–87:46).
• Walmart Rip-Off Story: A customer finds a Small Talk design being knock-off’d and sold on Walmart Marketplace—even with the original tag in the picture! Nick orders one himself to inspect quality (80:14–83:42).

  “Somebody, a seller on Walmart’s online marketplace…just fully ripped a screenshot of this T-shirt…literally used the photo from our website where you can see the small talk tag in it.” – Nick Williams (80:24–81:07)

9. Upcoming Releases, Blank Line Launch

• Spring 26 Collection: Features mesh jackets, new windbreakers, teased on the show as wear-test samples.
• Basics/Blank Line: A new focus for 2026—well-fitted, affordable blank tees ($75–90) and zip hoodies ($150–180), aiming for vertical integration and less reliance on wholesale advice (92:29–94:13).

10. Philosophy: Keeping Clothing Fun

• Against Quiet Luxury Homogeneity: Despite industry shifts, Nick and Phil believe clothing should be joyful and personal, encouraging playfulness in self-expression (79:10–80:14).

  “I just think, like, this shit should be fun. The market is very saturated with a lot of the same shit…we want to have some fun with it and, like, experiment and try things…” – Phil Ayers (79:28–80:14)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Success and Imposter Syndrome:
  “You guys are fucking killing it right now…my bank account is not killing it right now.” — Nick Williams (15:43–16:56)
• On Surviving NYC Studio Life:
  “Our only real issue was Phil’s wetsuits stinking up the bathroom.” — Nick Williams (41:57)
• On Being Overlooked in NYC Menswear:
  “There is something very special that people can feel in the process of iterating over and over again and maybe embarrassing yourself along the way…” — Nick Williams (53:10–54:30)
• On Getting Ripped Off:
  “Somebody…just fully ripped a screenshot of this T-shirt from our Spring Summer 25 collection. Used the photo from our website with the tag in it!” — Nick Williams (80:24–81:07)
• On Fashion Victims:
  “There should be a limit for your mom’s credit card…shouldn’t have access to whatever you want to buy until you’ve maybe put in a little work to figure out some taste.” — Nick Williams (51:14–52:03)
• On Work-Life Balance:
  “We try to sync up vacations so the recharge happens at the same time.” — Phil Ayers (101:33–101:38)
• On Customer Demands:
  “The only time we’ve ever gotten in trouble making a custom garment was leaving off a Coke Zero can. She hit us with a chargeback for $1,500!” — Phil Ayers (63:36–66:15)
• On Broke Designer Days:
  “There were a few times when the card got declined…and Phil got the notification, so he’d bail me out.” — Nick Williams & Phil Ayers (94:35–95:47)
• On the Joy of Small Brand Life:
  “The most rewarding thing for us is seeing people wearing our shit around the city.” — Phil Ayers (50:31–50:50)

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Selected Timestamps (MM:SS)

• Fit Check & Studio Vibes: 02:00–14:15
• Men’s Fashion Victims & Event Conversation Traps: 15:30–18:22
• Best/Worst Sellers & Graphic Fatigue: 22:30–32:58
• From Doodling to Brand-Building (The Origin Story): 42:53–44:27
• Division of Labor: 36:53–39:58
• Handling Bad Ideas & Partnership Harmony: 41:09–45:28
• Studio Stories—Bathroom Etiquette: 41:57
• Garment District Pros & Cons: 55:50–59:48
• Knock-Offs & Walmart Saga: 80:14–84:05
• Advice to New Designers: 67:32–68:25
• Broke Artist Stories: 94:35–98:19
• Fave Retailers & Fitting in NYC: 84:54–86:58
• Constructive Criticism + Compliments for Throwing Fits: 100:43–102:54

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Where to Find Small Talk Studio

• Website: smalltalkstudio.biz (new design!)
• Instagram: @smalltalk_studio (run by Phil)
• Appointments: Book via their website for in-person studio shopping.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in independent fashion, NYC style, or the grind of honest, creative small business. Nick and Phil provide a breezy but deeply insightful peek behind the curtain—showing the hustle, humor, and joy behind why they do what they do.

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Transcript

[Phil Ayers]

I'm Kiana, and I leveled up my business with Shopify. Once I figured out that Shopify was a thing, I never turned back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business, but Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like, I can't stop. I'm addicted.

[Nick Williams]

Start your free [e-mail].

[Lawrence]

our guests this week might be small talk, but they're here for big chat. This dynamic duo is based in the garment district, but they go damn near interdimensional for their dead stock sourcing and custom textile milling. The cut and soul mates are legit stars in this small constellation, keeping New York City's fashion hopes alive and well. With their spring collection hitting shelves now. Here to chat men's fashion victims, actual menswear talent being constantly overlooked and strangers taking shits in their studio. The co founders of Small Talk Studio, Nick Williams and Phil Ayers. Nick and Phil, how the hell are you?

[Nick Williams]

Very good. That was amazing.

[James]

Can you guys, like, just keep the energy down a little bit?

[Nick Williams]

This is.

[James]

This is a lot up top. I don't think we're ready.

[Nick Williams]

I'm sorry. I was distracted. I was. I was stuck on the line about someone taking a. In our studio.

[Lawrence]

Well, we're gonna ask about that.

[James]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Just because, like, you have an open, open door policy on the studio. Right? We.

[Nick Williams]

No, no, no.

[Phil Ayers]

It could be a little bit misleading, but we. We're trying to get to that point,

[Lawrence]

but people can just stop by.

[Phil Ayers]

People can and people do, but we have, like, turned to people, a few people away for showing up at kind of inopportune time, really. I think. I think also some people who are maybe not based here just think it's like a store.

[James]

Oh, sure.

[Phil Ayers]

So we've had people show up and

[Lawrence]

has anyone ever just been, like, there to take a shit in the middle of the day?

[Nick Williams]

I mean, we do. We do give out our bathroom key freely, you know.

[James]

Wow. What guys.

[Lawrence]

Oh, it's like you do you have

[James]

to buy hallway bathroom for customers only?

[Lawrence]

Oh, okay.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah. Paying customers only.

[James]

Does Google Maps have the address or whatever as like, a retail, like, spot or.

[Phil Ayers]

I don't think we're on. We're on Google.

[James]

That's the first thing you guys should do, honestly. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. Definitely feels like a long time coming. Super psyched that we can make this happen. Real quick, before we get into the interview that everyone, mainly me and James, have been waiting for, let's do a quick fit check. Who wants to go first? Just run through everything and then we'll.

[Phil Ayers]

We'll swap.

[Nick Williams]

Cool. You want to start?

[Phil Ayers]

You start.

[Nick Williams]

All right.

[Lawrence]

How does. Is this how it normally goes? Decision making process?

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, it's very. It's very communal. Decision making process, Very diplomatic. A two.

[Lawrence]

A two person commune.

[Nick Williams]

Is that not how it is between you two?

[Lawrence]

No, not really.

[James]

No, not typically.

[Nick Williams]

All right, I'll start from the bottom. As a longtime listener of the show,

[James]

thank you so much. Respecting tradition.

[Nick Williams]

I've got the Salomon. I always forget exactly what these are, but they're the broken arm.

[Lawrence]

The X, A, L, P. Yes. X alp.

[Nick Williams]

X alp. Yeah. I bought like a pretty cooked vintage pair of these maybe like two and a half years ago and was immediately wishing that these shoes still existed. And then three months later, broken arm came out with this amazing colorway.

[Lawrence]

What makes them so good?

[Nick Williams]

My grandma has a pair of shoes that are maybe like keens or something that are like this exact same color blocking. So when I saw them, I was like, I gotta, gotta have these also. I don't know if I've ever had a pair of sneakers that has held up better than these. It's been like three years, two and a half years of wearing these, like daily. Close to it. Yeah.

[James]

Do you ever do any, like, actual hiking in your hiking sneakers?

[Nick Williams]

I've done some light hiking.

[James]

Okay.

[Nick Williams]

I would say. Honest, I. I used to do a lot more hiking when I lived on the west coast and now here I rarely.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, that tends to happen.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. And socks, I think are some front general store, you know. And then I got.

[Lawrence]

Basics are good.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, basics are great. Sumi dyed canvas double pleat pants from our spring summer 25.

[James]

Hell yeah.

[Nick Williams]

These also used to be a lot darker brown. I've dry cleaned them maybe like six or seven times, and each time they get a little more of a fade, like quicker than anything I've ever owned. But now I think they've reached their. Their stasis point.

[James]

Final form.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, exactly. But there's a matching blazer. Blazer has not made it to the dry cleaners as much, so it's.

[Lawrence]

So now they look like.

[Nick Williams]

Yes, matched.

[James]

Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

Nice. And then on top. This is spring, summer 26, linen mesh windbreaker. And I feel like we've wanted to

[Lawrence]

do out now this is out. Depending on what we really.

[Nick Williams]

I bought a like camo kind of like ghillie suit, like mesh jacket from Frank at Leisure center maybe like three years ago. And obviously like any old military surplus mesh is going to be like super poly, like, right. Not very nice on the skin. So when we came across this linen mesh, I was like, we got to, we got to run a mesh jacket in this. And it's, it's like a way. I feel like you get to the middle of the summer and as a guy, there's like nothing else you can wear other than a fucking T shirt and shorts, dude.

[Lawrence]

I was walking here today. I was already like, T shirt and jeans, literally. So it's just going to be this for the next three months.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. So I'm testing this. I'm like, how. How hot can we actually get, right? And wear this?

[James]

It's gauzy, dude.

[Nick Williams]

It's.

[Lawrence]

If you don't have an undershirt underneath that are. We see a nip.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, you're in the right light. Like if you're back lit, maybe.

[Lawrence]

Okay. Depending on the, on the hues on the. Of the areola.

[Nick Williams]

Exactly.

[Lawrence]

Okay. And the.

[Nick Williams]

My nipples would be views visible.

[Phil Ayers]

We actually, we did shoot it that way.

[Lawrence]

Okay.

[Phil Ayers]

We got some shots on the beach.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

On a guy or on a guy? On a guy.

[James]

So you were casting based on like nipple size and just had people send

[Nick Williams]

nipple shots in advance and then. Yeah, it's. It is super comfortable. Shirtless. I feel like this is sort of like mid summer on a city bike.

[James]

Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

No shirt underneath.

[James]

Breeze just hit in the chest.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lawrence]

Golden hour over the Williamsburg Bridge. A few beers in you.

[James]

Oh, wait. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

All right. What about the thing hiding your nipples from the camera?

[Nick Williams]

Actually, we got.

[Lawrence]

We got a. Oh, is that a lettuce?

[Nick Williams]

Another perforated layer under here.

[Lawrence]

What does that say?

[Nick Williams]

This is Cecil Tolkien's. She's like a London based designer. Makes amazing knitwear. Little out of my price range, but she does these like souvenir shirts that I think she maybe cuts each one by hand. Oh, wow. But I love anything that has. I mean, a lot of stuff we make for spring summer has some sort of cutout or perforation, you know? So what is it?

[James]

What does it say?

[Nick Williams]

It says the name of the design. Oh, Tolkien's got it just wraps all the way around. And I bought this in white and black and also wear this all the time. And the chapeau Agnes B. Phil and I did a little shopping trip with Emilia when we were in Paris maybe two summers ago.

[Lawrence]

While you're already there for work.

[Nick Williams]

Yes.

[Lawrence]

Okay.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She didn't fly us out to Paris.

[Lawrence]

The shop. The shop rat.

[James]

Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

During Men's market week.

[Lawrence]

Hey, with that substack money, I don't know what she can afford, so. Maybe she can one. Maybe she can fly you out this summer. Who knows?

[Nick Williams]

They. They treated her very well at the Agnes B Store.

[James]

I'm sure. She's royalty.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. I feel like we both got snap cardigans and tried. I mean, I can't speak for you, Phil. I never was able to make the snap cardigan work very well, so. But the hat I wear all the time.

[James]

Great fade on that, too. Yeah, you're faded today, Nick. Straight up.

[Nick Williams]

The hardware. Hardware we got. It's kind of a mix. Santangelo necklace and Shayna Cave.

[Lawrence]

These are jewelry designers.

[Nick Williams]

Jewelry designers. Local jewelry designers. All right.

[Lawrence]

Or your local jeweler.

[James]

Yeah. Your local artisans.

[Lawrence]

And the. On the wrists,

[Nick Williams]

this is a Gotlob bracelet. And then this is another front. General store.

[Lawrence]

Nice. Oh, yeah, it's vintage.

[Nick Williams]

Or vintage. Yeah.

[James]

Panties.

[Nick Williams]

Calvin Klein. Whole collection. Oh, the belt is from a thrift store in Nashville.

[James]

Smashville.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. And, yeah, Calvin Klein panties, boxer briefs.

[Phil Ayers]

Phil. All right, let's see. Shoes. Shoes are an irrational element.

[Lawrence]

Sound heavy. Wait, let me see them slip on, guys. They sound beefy, though.

[Phil Ayers]

No, they're sick. They look like boots. I feel like when you're wearing them with pants, but some little low tops.

[James]

Clompers.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah. Great shoes. I have two different pairs of shoes from them, and I love them both. Socks are just some black dress socks, I believe. I feel like I have a lot of socks that I've taken from my dress socks that I've taken from my dad over the years. Probably like Joseph Bank.

[James]

Okay, socks, because you got, like, a hundred by buying one pair.

[Phil Ayers]

Exactly.

[Lawrence]

You get six free.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, but they're sick. They're slim and.

[Lawrence]

Slim socks.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, like fit.

[James]

You mean like. Oh, like thin.

[Phil Ayers]

Thin. Sorry. Not and slim. I got slim legs.

[Lawrence]

Some socks are back.

[James]

Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

And then these pants I got in Marfa a few months ago, and I bought them at some store. I don't remember the name of it.

[Lawrence]

Was it the Prada store? Yeah, it wasn't the Prada store, but

[Phil Ayers]

did get the shot there.

[James]

Of course. Mandatory.

[Lawrence]

Is it like. Is it like Instagram versus reality, where it's like, you get the shot, then behind you, there's, like, 80 white bitches that are all looking for the same.

[Phil Ayers]

No, we. My girlfriend and I, we got there at a time when no one else was there there. It was pretty sick. And it's like it's like 30 minutes outside of Marfa. Actually. I think it's not even in Marfa technically.

[Lawrence]

And is there anything else around there? Is it just.

[Phil Ayers]

It's just like. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

So it's just like go there like pick.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah. It's just desert and then you keep driving and.

[James]

Any vandalism?

[Phil Ayers]

Little bit. Not. Not much though. You honestly would have expected. We would have expected more. But there's like one of those fen. There's like a fence behind it that blocks. That blocks off a big pasture. And it's got like all the like locks on. You know, people do that. Yeah. Neighbors. But it's.

[Lawrence]

What. So what.

[Phil Ayers]

Sorry.

[Lawrence]

Where'd you get these pants from?

[Phil Ayers]

I don't know. Some store. But it's called Lebanon Shop. I don't know. I honestly think they're women's pants, but I. I love them. And I got home and I immediately ordered another pair in like royal blue. And I. I wear the. I don't know. I honestly wear the same pants. Like, I have like three pairs of the same jean in different style in different like washes. And then I have two pairs of these pants and I just like. I kind of like.

[Lawrence]

Very clothing designer of you.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah. I like to keep it.

[James]

The man knows what he likes.

[Phil Ayers]

Straightforward and. Yeah, I love them.

[James]

The hoodie.

[Phil Ayers]

Hoodie is new sample fall 26. Fall 26 forthcoming. Yeah.

[James]

Okay. A little teaser.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah. We.

[Lawrence]

You're wear testing fall gear. You know, on an 80 degree day you gotta.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah. We spent a lot of time dialing in these zip hoodie patterns and we. We ran this in two colors for fall or we'll be running it in two colors. And I. I think this is one of my favorite pieces that we've made to date.

[Lawrence]

What makes it special besides like the graphic across the belly?

[Phil Ayers]

I think just the fit of it is really perfect. The weight of it. And then. Yeah. Just had a lot of fun designing these kind of unique patches that we then had woven and. Yeah.

[James]

Super sick.

[Phil Ayers]

A fun little embellishment.

[Lawrence]

How much do you guys wear? Test your own shit?

[Phil Ayers]

A lot.

[Nick Williams]

Literally. Do not walk out of the house without a piece of small talk on.

[Lawrence]

But not just like currently upcoming. Like.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. I mean in a lot of the silhouettes carry through all the seasons. And so I feel like we're. We are constantly wear testing. Sometimes we're wear testing when it's a little too late to be making changes.

[Phil Ayers]

But still informs.

[James]

Right. For sure.

[Phil Ayers]

Next collection. So.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, I hope this. I hope this feels good.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, exactly.

[James]

Small Talk studio. Never leave home without it, baby.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

You guys must be in conning because you're covered in your own.

[Nick Williams]

I was gonna say about this hoodie, though, like, we. We introduced suiting for the first time a couple seasons ago. And truly the hoodie took more rounds of sampling and pattern making than the suit. How many rounds? Like, I mean, if you count the first time that we ran a hoodie, like two, two or three seasons ago, probably like six rounds.

[Phil Ayers]

Wow.

[Nick Williams]

Which is unheard of for us, but

[James]

I think it's unheard of for anyone.

[Phil Ayers]

Dude, seven rounds of so many. So many hoodies out there. You got to get it right and,

[Lawrence]

you know, wonder you guys are broke.

[Phil Ayers]

All right, who told you that?

[Lawrence]

Talk to your accountant. But now. But now it's perfect.

[James]

Relax.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, we love it dialed.

[James]

We love it.

[Phil Ayers]

And we're excited to share these with.

[Lawrence]

With everyone starting in fall. Starting in a year and a half.

[Phil Ayers]

These particular ones.

[Nick Williams]

But we will be.

[Phil Ayers]

We will be selling not this particular design with these patches, but we will be. We will be selling blank zip hoodies very soon.

[Lawrence]

Imminently. What about the T shirt underneath?

[Phil Ayers]

T shirt underneath is a

[Nick Williams]

current.

[Phil Ayers]

Current season, spring 26, just graphic tee, which I'm sure we'll talk about more, but just had a lot of fun doing all the graphics for all these tees and the fit, the feel, it's great. And yeah, honestly, I feel like I wear a small talk T shirt like five days out of the week at least, so.

[James]

Fabric of your life, man.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Panties also Calvin Klein. I share briefs. We do share. Yeah, we have just a share. Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

Angling for a sponsorship, so exactly.

[James]

You never know.

[Nick Williams]

Or a billboard. Jeremy Allen white style.

[James]

Yeah, both you guys just straight up

[Phil Ayers]

naked or a collab.

[Lawrence]

Kissing.

[James]

Yeah, we go.

[Lawrence]

What about the shades? Also, do we miss your sunglasses?

[Nick Williams]

Nick, I am fresh out of sunglasses right now.

[James]

Okay.

[Phil Ayers]

In case anyone's listening, these are sub sun glasses. I also, I have. I have a couple pairs of these and I wear them all the time. Very Doors outdoors, daytime, nighttime.

[Nick Williams]

Those got sensitive eyes.

[Phil Ayers]

Do I have very sensitive eyes?

[James]

They're beautiful.

[Phil Ayers]

And terrible eyesight.

[James]

I wear.

[Phil Ayers]

Wear contacts.

[Lawrence]

Are those okay?

[Phil Ayers]

They're not prescription.

[Lawrence]

No dailies.

[Phil Ayers]

Dailies. No, no. Bi weekly is. Bi weekly is, bro.

[Lawrence]

You got to get on the daily stream. It's terrible for the environment, but it is so good for your.

[Phil Ayers]

I also, I don't know, I'm just. I'm not on. And I make bi weeklies last like three weeks, so stretch economic.

[Lawrence]

That's why your Eyes are so bad.

[Phil Ayers]

I think it is.

[James]

They're so sensitive.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

But shout out to subson. They make really good shades.

[Lawrence]

You guys are sipping on some Orions and Topo Chico twist of lime.

[Nick Williams]

Yes.

[Phil Ayers]

Right.

[Lawrence]

As far as to what she go just yet, well, for me, it's twisted bass. All right, let's get. You know, speaking of small talk, it's time to start the podcast. Speaking of small talk, what is. At any men's or event, what is the most dreaded conversation topic that always

[Nick Williams]

comes up over and over and over? I mean, I think, like, I think we get a lot of. This is not a dreaded conversation topic, but it's. It's one where I feel like sometimes I feel a little bit of imposter syndrome is like, there is the online projection of our brand, and then there's the daily work of it. And I feel like we get a lot of, like, you guys are fucking killing it right now. Which we love to hear. But I think sometimes I. You hear that in heavy doses at those type of events, and it's kind of a hard thing to respond to.

[James]

The glazing.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Like, you guys are really struggling. Head above water. You know, breaking even counts is.

[Phil Ayers]

You know, honestly, that would be. That would be kind of nice to hear, like, some words of encouragement.

[Lawrence]

What do you see? People are, like, just gassing you up. Just like, yo, you guys are. Oh, man. Like, Schwarzenegger wore the throwing fit small. Oh, you're killing it.

[James]

Shout out to that shopper. That personal shopper at Mr. Porter. Yeah, that made that happen.

[Nick Williams]

I. I feel like maybe the reason I don't like that. That, like, prompt is that my reflexive response is always like, my bank account is not killing it right now.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah. Which is not what it means. And then. Yeah, yeah, it is. It becomes oversharing and.

[James]

Right. And you guys just killed the. Kill the vibe immediately.

[Phil Ayers]

They just slowly back away, man.

[Lawrence]

Fucking Phil's holding back on the graphic. He's late with the graphic.

[James]

Phil, would you agree with that sentiment, or is there another thing that you're like.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, I mean, we. We. We talk about that a lot, and I would say that's pretty accurate also. Just, like, talking about, I don't know, trying to, like, dissect your outfit. Oh, party or something. I'm like, bro, I don't want to.

[James]

That's pretty. Talk about, bro, I'm not working right now, bro. I'm trying to hit the open bar.

[Phil Ayers]

That's it. I think just at, like, certain.

[Lawrence]

Don't fit. Check Me function?

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, certain gatherings, I think the, like, it's just. You don't really want to talk about work.

[James]

That's such a reflexive thing at, like, a menswear event. And you're like, can we just, like, be people and hang out? Even if, like, we are all wearing cool clothes, can we just, like, leave it at that?

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Do people ever ask. Ask to try your on? I literally. I literally saw that happen with shoes the other day.

[James]

Oh, yeah.

[Lawrence]

And the dude that tried it on put his bare foot in the My Homies loafer.

[Nick Williams]

That's wild.

[Lawrence]

And then passed it back and again. Friend was like, still warm.

[Phil Ayers]

But the homie was okay with it. It was consensual.

[Lawrence]

Well, kind of. He was kind of put in his position where he's like, well, I can't say no.

[James]

Right?

[Phil Ayers]

Right.

[Lawrence]

Or I have, like, felt he felt compelled to do it. And then the guy took his own loafer off and was raw dog in them. He's like, well, now also, you're just

[James]

assuming that someone has socks on if they're gonna ask that. And then suddenly the bear dog is out and you've. You've crossed the room.

[Phil Ayers]

I feel like in that instance, it's like the same policy as in a shoe store. If you're trying on shoes. It's like, no test feet.

[James]

Yeah, you need a carry around testers, folks. Test your loafers, folks.

[Lawrence]

Some foot condoms.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lawrence]

All right, well, you guys, as you mentioned, you just dropped the spring collection. Spring 26.

[Phil Ayers]

What.

[Lawrence]

What piece specifically are you most excited about?

[Nick Williams]

I mean, I'm personally most excited about this. This mesh jacket. Yeah, I feel like we're. I mean, like I said earlier, there's like, spring can be a challenge sometimes. It's like the. The first half of the season, easy. Just like the shit you're excited to wear when it's not below freezing outside. But summers here are fucking brutal and true. New York is definitely our biggest market, and we definitely design for the New York lifestyle. And I. I feel like it can be a challenge to. To think of. To think outside the box of, like, shorts and T shirts, and this felt like the perfect thing for that. We. We once tried to design and make tanks a few summers ago.

[James]

I remember that.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, and they were. They were good, but, like, it. We used really nice fabric, and they ended up, like, once wholesale and everything was factored in. They were like $300 tanks, which nobody needs or wants.

[James]

Not.

[Phil Ayers]

They ended up. They ended up being really good gifts.

[James]

Oh, there you go.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[James]

Yeah, that's cool. Or make it work.

[Lawrence]

Repurpose them to scarves.

[Nick Williams]

Exactly.

[Lawrence]

What do you. Is there, like, is there an item that you're nervous about? Maybe, like, maybe it's new to the brand or you're just not sure how consumers are going to react to it

[James]

besides $500 tank tops.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, well, we don't. We luckily don't have those this season. I'm trying to think.

[Nick Williams]

I'm not.

[Phil Ayers]

There's. Yeah, there's not too much that's really new to the brand this coming season. Except this is, this is a new style that Nick's wearing.

[Nick Williams]

I feel like there's. I mean, this is the collection that I feel like a lot has coalesced for us and we've had, you know, we've had enough time now to really, like, know what people want from us. So honestly, I think this is, this is the one that we feel the best about. How excited to release.

[Lawrence]

How long has small talk, like, been around in earnest since you guys, like, truly linked up and turned into a real thing?

[Phil Ayers]

Because I know it started as a side project.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. This will be our fifth year working together.

[James]

That's an anniversary, guys. Congratulations.

[Phil Ayers]

Then, like three years doing Ready to

[James]

Wear wholesale with knowing how dialed, like the audience is with you guys and vice versa. That two way street, like, how often are you designing things that you like, definitely know that they want right now, versus maybe like trying to push the envelope a little bit and being like, let's introduce that crazy tanker. Or maybe it's a piece of outerwear, like a big ticket thing. Does that do negotiate that in your own mind or is it just like whatever feels right, feels right?

[Nick Williams]

I mean, we have a pretty good, like, back and forth. I think we keep each other in check when it comes to that sort of thing.

[Phil Ayers]

Definitely. I also think, like, we, whenever we're shooting things and like styling, whether we're working with stylists or styling shoots ourselves, you sort of notice what's missing or like, what would make, what could, like, tie this look together more, make it more interesting and more like that, I feel like usually helps bring to light just like what, what we need to sort of what's missing from collections and what would help, like, round it out, fill the gaps? Exactly.

[Lawrence]

You know what help this look out a suit. Is that the last time you, like, actually, is that the last, like, category you expanded in into

[Phil Ayers]

probably, like, big category? I mean, we've, we've, like, yeah, I would. Because, like, we're introducing some new outerwear next season, but We've. We've dabbled in outerwear in the fat in the past, but I feel like truly, like, proper outerwear in earnest is sort of coming up.

[Lawrence]

Can't wait.

[James]

Sick.

[Lawrence]

What are the best sellers for the brand?

[Nick Williams]

I mean, I think hats.

[James]

Oh, sure, bangers.

[Nick Williams]

Hats are the easiest.

[James]

Hats are great.

[Lawrence]

Dude. But hats are also really hard.

[James]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lawrence]

Kind of like the hoodie. It's like, there's so many hats. How do you make a hat that is stands out but isn't, like, standing out?

[James]

Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

Right.

[James]

The right amount of branding, the right shape, you guys have have it pretty. Pretty nailed, I think.

[Nick Williams]

Thank you. I mean, the funny thing is I. I feel like it's become. And we'll see how this expands in the next. This upcoming season, but it's kind of become like, hats and suiting in a way, like the JFK junior Effect.

[James]

Backwards hats.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, the suiting's doing well.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, suiting's doing well. And I think we're surprised by, like, how quick, like, the suiting is definitely the most expensive thing we're selling, and people come in, try it on, and, like, just cop immediately. I think that's, like, part of the reason we're trying to open up the studio to more shopping appointments. Because there are certain things, obviously, that you really got to try on in person, but suiting's been doing really well.

[Phil Ayers]

The suiting also requires, like, more engagement, I feel like, with the customers. So, like, if someone's buying a shirt or a pair of pants or something, there's not. There's not a whole lot of interaction with the customer. It's just, like, a transaction that happens. But, like, with the suiting, oftentimes someone's hitting us up online, they want to come in and try it on, and, like, and then once they've made the trip, they've. You know, there's sort of that. They're committed anticipation. Yeah, they're committed shit.

[Lawrence]

I'm in the garment industry. I gotta walk out with the garment.

[James]

It's my Metro card. Might as well just do the plastic, too.

[Lawrence]

Where did you guys try to, like, fill with? Again, with suiting, it's like, with anything, any small brand, it's like, how do you kind of differentiate yourself from, like, the rest of the entire men's landscape? Like, where were you guys? What were you guys targeting? Was it, like, textile fit, price? I don't know. Like, what. What did you focus on to make sure that, you know, one small talk, lawn shooting. It was going to be the success that it seemingly Is.

[Nick Williams]

I mean, I think like, textile is definitely a big part of it. Like, we knew. We knew once we had the suit, silhouette and style that we wanted to make, like, we wanted the opportunity to be able to like, kind of freak it on the textile side. And honestly, I think like, that. That hole in the market of, like, you know, you gotta spend some money on a suit and, you know, you have an occasion coming up and you wanna look good and you wanna not look too stiff. You also don't want to look like you're trying too hard with something like, crazy. And I feel like we've come up with a silhouette that feels like, like relaxed, leisurely, but is very easily dressed up and made sharp and it fits everyone pretty well.

[Lawrence]

Nice. What's the pricing on this bad boy?

[Nick Williams]

Kind of depends season by season, but like, it's right in the like 11 to $1200 range. For the full, full set.

[James]

They're sold separately as like the jacket.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, that. That feels like a. Because you talked about this with Carter Young where it's like, that is like a. You know, the sub one. Sub one case suit is like Indochino suit supply. And then you go past that and you're talking like 2 grand, 3 grand. That's sub. Like the. Between 1 and 1001. 1500 is like a nice little sweet spot for like, not entry level, but I don't know, like a definitely big boy suit. But not like a serious, serious purchase.

[James]

Yeah, not like a banker joint.

[Nick Williams]

Exactly.

[Lawrence]

What. Okay, so what sells the worst?

[Nick Williams]

I mean, those tanks. I still wear them, but I think it was. It was a tough sell.

[James]

Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, literally.

[Phil Ayers]

I think it. It really, like, varies season to season, but I think like, we're always trying to find that balance of kind of the freakier louder stuff and then the quieter pie. And I feel like early on we were making a lot more like highly graphic and just louder stuff. And I feel like there are some, you know, now with wholesale and stuff, there are some stores that are sort of looking for that, and that's like what they're buying into. And then others are, you know, responding more to the quieter pieces. And then we are sort of like trying to split the difference with what we stock on our website, in our studio. And I think just sometimes some of the more graphic stuff that, like, we're hyped on or, you know, it looks really cool like in a photo. I feel like that doesn't necessarily translate to like, what people actually want to buy and wear.

[James]

And is there fatigue around graphic stuff?

[Nick Williams]

Like Generally, do you think that is what the discourse will have us believe?

[James]

Okay.

[Nick Williams]

I think, like, our customer base seems to say otherwise, and I do feel like we've landed on, like, a pretty good sweet spot where we try to do a range of graphics and get a little more experimental with, like, the jersey side of our collection where it's not a whole lot of, like, really loud in a traditional sense graphics. But, like, yeah, I mean, I think there is definitely widespread graphic fatigue.

[Phil Ayers]

I mean, our jersey graphics do do well. And like, as far as our T shirts go, like, we do, we do a range of hand drawn graphics that are printed, but start out as just a drawing on a swatch of fabric. And then we also have screen printed graphics and stuff. And I feel like the hand drawn graphic stuff does do really well, but it's more like we do a lot of printed denims and stuff, and that stuff looks really sick. But then I feel like that at least in, like, our D2C market and like, with our customers, it just doesn't. It's not the stuff that's selling as well.

[James]

On the note of graphics, be real, did you guys stop doing the personalized pants because Bodhi absolutely cooked the game with the secrets? I don't had to know as a Bodhi hater. I had to know.

[Phil Ayers]

I don't think they cooked it.

[Nick Williams]

We maybe cooked it.

[James]

No, no chance. Once you made James the custom pants, it was over, dude.

[Lawrence]

Once I wore them on the COVID of Thursday Styles.

[James]

Yo, they worked at times, bro.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, my nipples were out.

[Nick Williams]

I know you were looking. Remember about that?

[Phil Ayers]

Jacked in that photo.

[James]

Small as hell.

[Phil Ayers]

The.

[Lawrence]

The mesh hides everything. It's like.

[Phil Ayers]

It did something to your abs.

[James]

No, it looked like drizzy abs, dude.

[Lawrence]

Like.

[James]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lawrence]

Actually, I know the photo editor at the time, so they did me a solid and just, yeah, drew them on.

[James]

But there are people, like, loop, like, looping you and Bod kind of together as that, because that was a thing that the people were like, either the customers are really into or, like, it was not a trend. But I remember, like, reading a lot about Bodhi bringing back that style. Did that. Yeah. Did you, like, I mean, I don't

[Lawrence]

know, looking for validation of his body.

[James]

I don't want you guys to talk shit. I mean, if you want to talk shit. But I'm just wondering how you guys, like, did you, you know, were you guys on parallel paths with them or did you not even consider it?

[Nick Williams]

Was. It was. I would definitely say was. It was a parallel play situation with Bodhi. It was like, true. Like, we were sharing a studio maybe in, like, 2019, before the pandemic and

[Phil Ayers]

before we even worked together.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. And I remember. What were you doing?

[Phil Ayers]

Just drawing. Doodling. Yeah. Just doodling. No. Yeah, I just was doing my own illustration stuff and.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. But I remember, like, the first couple pairs. I mean, I was doing these, like, all over embroidered garments. And it was super labor intensive because you had to draw everything out first before you embroidered it. And at a certain point, I was like, oh, I'm. I'm drawing this on here. I should just stop there. Yeah, that's how that was kind of born for us. And. And I started seeing the Bodhi and was like, this is an incredible. Like, it was something to kind of aspire to a little bit.

[Lawrence]

And also it set the price.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lawrence]

The market was lost for this.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. Yeah. But no, I mean, for us, it's. It's. I think it's more just like general fatigue, like, internally.

[James]

Oh, right. You gotta.

[Lawrence]

But, yeah, I do. I. I agree that there is, like, the world is maybe, you know, moved on from graphic T saturation, but I think a lot of that is because 99.9% of the graphic tees out there suck dick. And you guys are like, the 0.1%, maybe, where it's, like, graphics that are actually fun and interesting and, like, look good. And I'm wondering. I'm wondering if as you balance the freaky and the quiet, if you're also seeing a move towards the freaky because the world is slowly but surely moving on from, like, quiet luxury. Are you seeing that at all, like, in what people are and what stores are buying from you or what's moving on your G to C?

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, I mean, like Phil was saying, like, sometimes it is. It's hard to tell because our. Our stock is, like, are split between, you know, heavy concentration here in New York, and then it's like, Japan, various Dover street locations that kind of rotate every season. And so we have these, like, stockists that are coming back for the super graphic stuff every season.

[Lawrence]

Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

And then some of the stores in New York will just, you know, they, they. They sell a pretty big range. So it's. We're still kind of figuring that out, but I mean, we put ourselves through the graphics gauntlet all the time because in addition to, like, doing our own, you know, ready to wear stuff, we're also often designing, you know, merch for musicians or restaurants or. And we really like doing that kind of stuff because it's getting to step out of our, like, our own sort of aesthetic world and do it for someone else.

[Lawrence]

Feels refreshing to take a break from

[Nick Williams]

small talk a little bit sometimes.

[Lawrence]

Wait, what's moving in Japan? Because maybe that will inform us what's. That's a pop here.

[Phil Ayers]

I mean, that at least. I don't know what's moving, but what the stores are buying is. Is. Tends to be some of the more graphic, playful stuff.

[James]

All right, graphics back. You heard it here first, folks.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah.

[James]

Mark it down.

[Phil Ayers]

They like us for, like, the playful aesthetic.

[James]

Yeah. And having fun with the gear.

[Phil Ayers]

Totally.

[Lawrence]

Yeah. Versus, like, the fucking severe German ness of the white luxury.

[Nick Williams]

Big time.

[Lawrence]

There you go. Is there. Is there a category of products you guys haven't tapped yet that is enticing you? Like, maybe. I don't know. I know you love these sneakers, but it's a small talk shoe looking like.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, I think footwear, for sure.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, it's been fun. I mean, we used to be in the same Paris showroom. Is Carter. Carter Young. And it's cool to see he's done some really cool footwear collabs that are, like, really, like. I like the. The template of, like, you know, UK heritage footwear brand partnering with, like, small designer. And I feel like there's a lot of different stuff we've talked about with. With footwear, but that's. That's definitely not so much like designing something in house, but partnering with, like, big operation somewhere.

[Lawrence]

Would it be a sneaker? Would it be a shoe? Would it be a boot?

[Phil Ayers]

That's the great debate between you guys.

[James]

Like, internally, you couldn't decide. You don't think tomorrow.

[Nick Williams]

It's tough because going back to the, like, graphics thing, it's like, we, you know, we did sort of start a project many years ago with. With pro kids that was. It came together in a pretty cool way. It ultimately didn't, like, go to market, but there's a lot of pressure at that time to just, like, apply our graphic treatment shoe. And that's. That's, like, a tough ask, I think, just because, you know, it's not. I think there's certain people that can pull that off, but there's a lot more people who would maybe do a disservice to a very graphic shoe. And I don't think that's so much what we're interested in. I think now that we've had all these seasons of Ready to wear and there are, like, signature sort of styles that, you know, are associated with us, I feel like there's a Lot more we could do with footwear, whether it was a sneaker or a shoe.

[James]

Fingers crossed.

[Phil Ayers]

I think. Yeah. We're just always considering what would style well with the collections and. Yeah. But I think like internally, I think, I think footwear would be a lot to take on fully ourselves and so that we would, we would. You know, there have been some conversations and stuff and that's something I think we aspire to and is a goal of ours. But like internally I think just like expanding accessories. We've been playing around with it more recently and trying to step outside of just the clothing realm and offer a wider range of accessories to go along with the collections.

[Lawrence]

Or hats.

[Phil Ayers]

More hats.

[James]

Hats, bags.

[Phil Ayers]

We always.

[James]

Lifestyle.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Is the hats like, is the success of the hats like what funds you guys to take creative risks?

[Nick Williams]

It's a combination of, of the, the hats are just like a daily driver that you know, like drive web sales and stuff and then I mean.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, a lot that's got for sale right now.

[James]

A lot of them are sold out cash, dude. You're welcome, bro.

[Phil Ayers]

We got, we got, we got a few fresh batch of. Of new hat designs coming in. Coming in real soon, so. Oh yeah, we're pretty much sold out right now.

[James]

Dude, these are. Dude, your hats are so.

[Lawrence]

Wait, these have ear flaps. Sick.

[Phil Ayers]

Oh yeah, yeah, we have some of those winter caps.

[Lawrence]

Oh, these, these are available?

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah.

[James]

Put that ice for next winter, dude. Jamie coping on bond, bro. Guys, a psycho. These are. It's really good. Is that.

[Lawrence]

Guys, I love the shape of your hats.

[James]

Yeah, Perfect shape.

[Lawrence]

Whether it's the trucker or the rodeo hats, everything's Gucci. Okay. Should have asked this at the very beginning. We should ask the beginning, what are your roles with small talk. What do you, what do you do? What do you do? Like how do you fucking divvy it up? The pimping, the po.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, I mean it's, it's definitely evolved over time. Like when I was talking about the, the drawing fatigue. Phil has heroically taken that on pretty single handedly for the last two and a half years at least.

[Phil Ayers]

And we did have an employee that worked with us for about a year and a half, maybe almost two years. Shout out to Alex Brown who was helping us with the hand drawn stuff and he's an incredible artist and illustrator. But as that side of the business kind of slowed. He also is a, is a recent father. So. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

So congrats on the kid.

[Phil Ayers]

That's not.

[James]

That's how it goes, right? Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Typically paternity take. Take Take indefinitely.

[James]

As much as you need, dude.

[Nick Williams]

No, it was. I mean, like, a lot of stores, especially in Japan, were still like, hitting us up every season to make those. And. And we still. Occasionally. We're. We're working on an order for Dover Street Beijing right now and hoping that that's maybe the last time for quite a while that we're drawing.

[Phil Ayers]

We thought we were done with it. And then what if you got into Dover street base just when you think they're out?

[Lawrence]

Yeah. What if small talk becomes big in China, though? I mean, you want the drawings?

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

I hope we go big in China.

[Lawrence]

You guys ever. You guys have a claw pro account? Because you could just.

[James]

Yeah. AI that dog.

[Nick Williams]

I gotta say, I have.

[Lawrence]

Make me a turtle.

[Nick Williams]

Surfing. I don't even. Like, I've never even typed something into CHAT GPT and I, like, I'm a CHAT GPT virgin. I'm not proud of it, but I just. I don't even know where to start.

[James]

I think it's something to be proud of, to be honest, you know. You saving a lot of trees, Nick?

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

You want me to see if chatbots. You could whip up a. If I'm just like, hey, small talk studio.

[James]

Yeah. Style.

[Lawrence]

Style drawing.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. Let's see what it looks like. I hear let's kill some fucking trees.

[Lawrence]

I'm going to type it, but it's going to take a minute. So, like, you guys can continue on.

[Phil Ayers]

I'm going to grab a beer.

[James]

Oh, okay.

[Phil Ayers]

All right.

[James]

Sick. This is Perfect.

[Lawrence]

Me using ChatGPT. Drive you to drink.

[Nick Williams]

Keep.

[James]

Keep it running. Okay, so we've established that Phil is a doodler, right? He's taken on that. The heavy share of that. So, like, what are you doing?

[Nick Williams]

That's how it started.

[James]

The fuck are you doing, dude?

[Nick Williams]

I'm kicking it. That's.

[James]

That's not using AI.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, that's how it started out. I mean, how it started out was like the two of us literally sitting at a table, like, not much bigger than this, across from each other, drawing all day at the same time. And then I think when we started expanding into Ready to Wear, I was like, trying to manage the design and production there. Phil was keeping our. Our customs operation going. And now we have, like, over the seasons, started to sort of like work closer and closer on the design and everything. And we're pretty much like all in. The two of us, like, designing full collections. And then we split it up a little bit where like, Phil's. Phil's running the Instagram and, like, doing a lot of our like marketing and, and stuff like that. And. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

All right.

[James]

This is bad.

[Lawrence]

Got the image.

[Nick Williams]

This is.

[James]

Looks like throwing fits.

[Phil Ayers]

Merch dog.

[James]

This is our first merch shirt. Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

Okay.

[Phil Ayers]

I think it misinterpreted like small talk studio.

[James]

Oh, they're having literally a small talk conversation.

[Lawrence]

The convert. The subhead is good conversations build everything.

[James]

Oh, that trademark. Trademark.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

I'm going to say this is ass.

[James]

Try harder, do better. So you guys are a true brain trust then. It's like, I mean, obviously the decisions are going to be between you guys, but like, in terms of like the workload, we really are having input on each other's stuff, I would imagine.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

It's just the two of us, so there's collaboration every day. But I would say yeah, Nick really takes the lead with the kind of collection design and development and then overseeing production. I'm sort of doing more marketing, e commerce. And then as far as like graphics and artwork, that's very much like a joint effort. And these days if you, if you

[Nick Williams]

slide into our DMs, you will get a response from Phil. Unless you are.

[James]

It's dangerous information for this audience. Yo, Phil. Fuck you.

[Lawrence]

Have you guys ever had a fight?

[Nick Williams]

We really, we're overdue for a fight. Really.

[Phil Ayers]

It would be good for us. We're both really non confrontational people, which is not a, not a great way to be always. Especially when running a business.

[James]

Two pushovers.

[Phil Ayers]

But yeah, exactly. We, we lived together. We were roommates before we started working together.

[James]

Okay. Not, not never both though.

[Phil Ayers]

No.

[James]

Okay. That'd be.

[Lawrence]

There's no overlap.

[Phil Ayers]

There was no overlap. When I, when I mess your roommate.

[Nick Williams]

I would say we're both pretty clean in different ways. Phil is like compulsively tidy and, and that really paid off keeping our, our house in order.

[James]

Security deposit champion.

[Nick Williams]

I'm more like every once in a while I will like get the impulse to do a deep clean and just dive in, scrub behind your man sink. And yeah, he's stable. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Who took the gnarlier shits?

[James]

We was at one bathroom when you guys were living together.

[Nick Williams]

We did share a bathroom. Honestly, the thing, the only, the only real issue when we shared a bathroom was Phil. Phil was surfing like year round at that time and he would, he would always hang his wetsuits in the shower to dry in the winter. And that was a, that was a gnarly smell for.

[Phil Ayers]

It's a mold. It's a very real New York. It's a New York problem. You surfer. Surfers in New York know.

[Lawrence]

Why does my. Why does my no Gucci lamp smell like the Rock Wave Low Tide? Damn, bro.

[Phil Ayers]

But yeah, we, we. We lived together and then when I moved out, we turned. My old bedroom was sort of the original, like, shared small talk studio and we worked out of that studio for, for like a year or so. And then, yeah, we.

[Lawrence]

So, so how did. What. Walk us through the decision to like, start the brand because you're just doodling together your roommates and then you're doodling across from each other. And then when we were like, you know what?

[Nick Williams]

It's, it's a.

[Phil Ayers]

Got something here.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, I would say. I mean, what happened was like that summer of 2020, like the spring and leading into the summer, there was like a very fortuitous string of press when this was very much just like a making ship for friends under the radar kind of thing. Started with like the first very like early iteration of Blackbird, Spy Plane, Shout Out, Jonah and Aaron. And then Jacob Gallagher wrote a piece about like doodling in fashion.

[James]

Okay.

[Nick Williams]

When he was at the Wall Street Journal.

[Lawrence]

And I think it was us and Ass Pizza.

[Nick Williams]

It was us and Bodhi.

[James]

Well, there it is.

[Lawrence]

Damn. Austin Butts overlooked once again.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, I know. And it like took off like, you know, everyone was at home and like actually reading a lot and, and spending a lot of money and it took off. It very quickly surpassed my own capacity to do that. And Phil and I like, had a good enough just like friendship, working relationship. We both like, respected each other's like, creative practice. And he had left Pilgrim Surf and Supply like a few months earlier. And we, we started the conversation that summer and then like early 2021, like January of 2021.

[James]

Damn.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[James]

And the rest is history.

[Nick Williams]

That's right.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

So how do you. Being non confrontational. How do you guys negotiate? Maybe one of you can step out

[Nick Williams]

the room and then the other.

[Lawrence]

How do you like, you know, have the conversation with each other about an idea that maybe one of you feels really strongly about and loves? And the other one's like, I think this is a stinker.

[Nick Williams]

It's a good question.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, you just let the others acquiesce.

[Phil Ayers]

No, I don't think we acquiesce. I think we just very calmly and politely are like, I don't know about that.

[James]

Yeah, I'm not so sure about the luxury tanks.

[Phil Ayers]

Or we'll be like, let's, let's sleep on it and that tomorrow.

[Lawrence]

Okay.

[James]

Yeah, I don't sleep on it.

[Nick Williams]

I would say also like, neither of us take ourselves all that seriously and, like, have pretty good sense of humor about all this stuff. And over the years, we've built up like a, you know, confrontation aside, we built up a pretty good, like, rapport when it comes to talking through ideas. I definitely have had the lion's share of bad ideas between the two of us. And give us an example.

[James]

What's your worst idea, Nick?

[Nick Williams]

We were talking about this yesterday. I think one recurring idea of mine that I try to push every season is I really want to make long

[James]

johns with doodles on them or.

[Nick Williams]

No, like, we've done printed like waffle thermal fabric for.

[Lawrence]

I saw that. That was fire.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. Reverse camo. I. I have this idea of like, full set where especially like, you know, like jeans with big holes and. And you see the. You see the long johns through them.

[James]

Right, right, right.

[Nick Williams]

Or like some of shorts in the. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

That was such a 2015 hypebeast thing.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, I know, but I.

[James]

Some OG fear of God type.

[Nick Williams]

It has not left my. My brain.

[Phil Ayers]

You're a big long john wear in the winter. I don't. I don't really wear them unless I'm like, in the north country or skiing or snowboarding.

[James]

Yeah. Under the wetsuit, for sure.

[Lawrence]

Do you agree that that's been his worst idea?

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah. I feel like Nick's been pushing a lot of like, leisure kind of wear into collections and sometimes I'm just like, this is cool, but like, I don't think it needs to exist in app from us. Yeah, like, they're. There are great sweatpants out there that already exists. Like, nobody needs a pair of small talk sweatpants. Maybe they do, but.

[James]

But a onesie with a butt flap from you guys. Sign me up. That could be fun.

[Nick Williams]

You're gonna see that at SantaCon, though.

[James]

Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

It's over.

[James]

It's a wrap.

[Lawrence]

Do you see whack people wearing small talk?

[Phil Ayers]

Like SantaCon enthusiasts never seen it at SantaCon. And we see a lot of SantaCon because our. Our studio is kind of in like, the epicenter of Santa Con North Pole Madness.

[Lawrence]

Yeah. You guys are in Murray Hill.

[Nick Williams]

We're in Times Square.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, we're in like Times Square, but no.

[Lawrence]

And then what's the. Sorry not to. Before we move on, what's the worst idea Phil's ever had?

[James]

Oh, yeah.

[Lawrence]

That he has maybe tried to push on you.

[James]

Let's hold this doodler to task.

[Nick Williams]

I don't know. Phil doesn't. Phil doesn't have, like, have ideas.

[James]

Yo, you can't have A bad idea if you've never had an idea bars.

[Nick Williams]

Phil is not trying to push an agenda in the way that I sometimes am.

[Phil Ayers]

Okay.

[Nick Williams]

I feel like he's got a little more of a stable, creative mind, a little less restless creatively. And so I feel like when I'm, like, giving feedback to Phil, it's more like, let's do this graphic a little differently. Or, you know, something like that.

[James]

Tweaking it.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lawrence]

So you start wide, and then you kind of, like, hone it in on.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

I feel like with, like, all the graphic work we do, we're talking about it, it's like, it's a very fine line between, like, something that's, like, cool and weird and is just kind of whack. And so there is a lot of, like, just coming up with something, like, drawing it out and being like, is that. Is this cool? Like, I don't know. I've been, like, drawing this for the last two hours. Like, what do you think? And, yeah, sometimes it's.

[Nick Williams]

You're.

[Phil Ayers]

You're so in it that you need a second set of eyes to sort of check you. And I feel like we're really good at, like, being honest with each other and, like, this is cool. Or, like, I think you should turn

[James]

down the wackness by a couple percentages.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. I mean, and to speak to the question you just asked Lawrence, like, I think the stakes are very clear to us when it comes to that sort of thing, because we love seeing people in the city wearing our shit. And I think if you put out a graphic or a style that you regret and you start seeing it, like, obviously, like, certain people can style things in ways that make you feel differently about the thing you made, and that does happen. But, like, you know, you don't. You don't want to, like, be reminded of that shitty thing you made.

[James]

Right.

[Lawrence]

Everything reminds me of my flop.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lawrence]

Throw.

[James]

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[Lawrence]

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[Phil Ayers]

I think the most exciting and, like, rewarding thing for us is seeing people wearing our shit around the city or like, friends texting us a photo of someone wearing our. That they like, saw at a bar on the train or something. And we get that. We get that a lot. And that's. That's what it's all about.

[Lawrence]

Working.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah. Yeah, something's working. The plan is seeing you guys, like, wear the hats on the pod and shirts always. It's always joy shirts.

[Lawrence]

Some of us aren't always wearing hats. On the flip side of that being so in the. With New York and like, New York fashion and style, what does a men's fashion victim look like in New York City right now?

[Nick Williams]

I mean, I think there's a lot of types, but generally speaking, it's just like you can, you know, when you see someone who's a try hard, and I feel like, you know, no shade. I mean, I think there's like, you, you gotta be it. You gotta be taking risks. But there's a difference between taking risks and just having. I was thinking about like, how, you know, when. When we were teenagers and like, the conversation came up about, like, how old do you have to be to be given a phone? I feel like there should be. There should be that same limit for like, your. Your mom's credit card when it's with, like, you should not have access to. To, you know, like, whatever you want to buy on the Internet until you've maybe like, put in a little work

[James]

to figure out some taste.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

And from. There's also like, there's no friction anymore. Right. You hit two buttons and something's on the way.

[James]

Cops.

[Nick Williams]

Exactly.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah.

[James]

With great power comes great responsibility is

[Lawrence]

what we're talking about.

[Phil Ayers]

Definitely. Yeah. To me, it's like hanging out on Orchard street outside the car tick store like filming a. Filming a reel.

[James]

Yes.

[Lawrence]

I think I walked through, like, four photos. I walked, like, four photo shoots on, like, you know, for influencers, like, on the way over here.

[James]

Just like.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, not photo shoots. Just fucking one, you know?

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lawrence]

I'm saying one person posing. But why do you think that? Because this comes up with us. Anytime there's, like, a cfda, like Young American Designers, or, like, you know, oh, like New York City's back, or, like, New York Fashion Week, they try to highlight all these brands that are, like, New York based. Like, who the. What the is this? Who are they? This is garbage. Why do you think brands like Small Talk, SK Manor Hill, Emily, Don Long, Daytime Noel, your homie Nick. You guys are constantly overlooked when people talk about how there's no fashion talent coming out of New York City. Like, that's always a narrative. Like, oh, New York City has no. Like, the last person was Zack Posen

[James]

or Martin Jacobs menswear specifically.

[Lawrence]

Right?

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. Yeah. I was. I was talking to Nick, to Phillips the other day about this. I think it's like. I think it's something about, like, the scale of our brands, obviously, is part of it. And I think also in New York, like, there are. There is this history, especially in the Garment district, of, you know, you got, like, Calvin Klein and Donna Karan. And, like, I think that shit is still stuck in people's head as, like, the template of a, you know, designer coming out of New York. But we were talking about how, like, there's something special that comes out of this scale of brand, which is that we've all had to, like, throw shit at the wall very publicly and. And test shit out that we later regret in various degrees. And I think having to, like, figure out what you're about, like, along the way, especially in an age when, like, it's pretty easy to just, like, launch a cooked preconce idea and, like, get funding for it. Like, there is something very special that I think people can feel in the process of, like, iterating over and over again and maybe embarrassing yourself a little along the way and then landing on something that feels really right over time.

[James]

Failing in real time is, like, an asset in terms of what being, like, relatable or, like, showing, like, being transparent with the process.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, I mean, I think. I think the relatability is part of it, but also, like, forces you to, like, test out what actually, like, works in the world. Especially, like, we. We neither of us have backgrounds in, like, apparel design or fashion really, in any way. And I think coming at it from like an art perspective. You have to learn the difference between something that is like overworked and something that is actually like wearable and will look good on a lot of people.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, I like that. Yeah. I also like, you know, anyone can come up with a brand manifesto on AI.

[Phil Ayers]

Right.

[Lawrence]

This is my brand. And then it's like, hey, what's going to be the most commercially viable?

[James]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lawrence]

What is. What is going to get me into the cfda? Or like still thinking of. Yeah, like Calvin, Mark, Donna, Karen is like Perry Ellis. I mean, think about how. I think about how much they failed invisibly. Right.

[Phil Ayers]

Because it wasn't like all true online.

[Lawrence]

Online or anything. Yeah. You mentioned working the garment district. It's big, big part of like, if you like the brand DNA, what is, what are like the biggest pros and cons of working there?

[Phil Ayers]

Pros are that all of our factories, all of the vendors, trims, everything is within like a two or three block radius for us. And yeah, that's like why we moved there initially. We, our previous studio was in Brooklyn and then we've been. We've been in our studio for three years now and the move just made sense as we were, you know, expanding, ready to wear and stuff, making stuff in New York. We, it like would take eat up a whole day just to travel from Brooklyn into the garment district, run around. So we were just like, we need to be here. And we found, you know, we. It was early enough. I feel like there were still sort of COVID deals like happening. And so we locked in a really great space and we've been there ever since. And now we're like really cementing ourselves in there by trying to build out the space and sort of reopen it in a way that is more public facing. And yeah, we're hoping to bring more people to the garment district.

[James]

Oh, sick.

[Lawrence]

Wait, what is it? Like people can actually come in and shop?

[Phil Ayers]

People? Yeah, that's our, that's our goal.

[Nick Williams]

We're just going to have like appointments to keep it civilized. Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

There will be a spot on our website where you can book a shopping appointment, come through, try stuff on shop, kick it, whatever.

[James]

Is that like a loophole to not having to open up retail? And then at the same time, based on like this relatability and transparency, people being in your workspace is kind of like awesome for a customer or like a super fan.

[Nick Williams]

I mean, and for us too, like we, we love getting to like. I mean we love like hosting events and parties and shit. And also Just like the. The, like getting to see someone try our clothes on and, like, have that conversation with them about, like, you know, I mean, I personally love going into a store where, like, I remember the first time I went to the Nepenthes store and was in the dressing room trying something on, and the lovely woman who has worked there forever, like, who is just like a retail goddess, came over and like, started hanging stuff on the dressing room, like, curtain rod and, like, very tailored to, like, what she thought would work for me. Nice. I like that whole process of customer service, like, in person is something we both, like, love to do. We love to host people at the studio. We didn't do it for the longest time because we were like, it's going to derail our day.

[James]

Sure.

[Nick Williams]

And then after a while, we were like, well, the whole point of this is to sell clothes. Like.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah.

[James]

Actually.

[Nick Williams]

Wait, is. Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

But yeah, definitely having appointments just to like. Because it is a little tricky just to have a full on open door policy and people can walk in whenever. Because there are times where it's like, it's not today. Like, we're.

[Lawrence]

Hey. So I got a call. I got to go over and pick there. Exactly what are the cons of working in the garment district? Well, better. Better tacos in Sunset Park.

[Phil Ayers]

Big time. Big time.

[Nick Williams]

Sunset park is like. Is. Well, yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

Tacos. Better tacos. Tacos. El Bronco. That's the one. Yeah, that's our. For us, at least they've got a physical location. And then they have a little cart outside of Melody Lanes. The bowling alley in Sunset Park. The iconic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James]

Untouched.

[Lawrence]

I did a torta crawl in Sunset park once and had to take a. On the street.

[Phil Ayers]

You should have hit different kind of Torto Crawl.

[Lawrence]

No, no. This is like when I had to take a right outside the Barclays. A lot of talk right outside the Barclays arena construction site. That's how long that was. Oh, yeah. Delicious torches, though.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, we weren't there then.

[Lawrence]

No, but. No. I don't know. Like, what is there? Number one on 43rd ship being expensive.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah. I never go there, honestly. The food is trash and it's like every fast casual option Right. Imaginable is in midtown. But I just feel like there are, like, so many days where I just walk outside and I do like, a couple loops and I'm just like, I hate everything. I hate every dude. Go Go Curry is.

[James]

That's the one. That's the one, brother.

[Phil Ayers]

I have to watch myself.

[James]

Yeah, I know.

[Phil Ayers]

It's so dangerous to Limit myself to like one a week. That is amazing.

[Lawrence]

There's a guy, I don't know if you saw there might have been a COVID fatality. Not actually, but he would just sell Spanish food out like Dominican food out of the, out of loading loading dock.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, yeah, that place is definitely still there. Yeah, it's on 37th Street.

[Lawrence]

Nice. I always look for it when I'm over. I'm going into panties. I'm just like, where the.

[Nick Williams]

I think it's like a little more built up now, but is still out of the loading dock.

[Lawrence]

All right.

[Phil Ayers]

But yeah, I think just the crazy. You see it like, you know, we both live in Bed Stuy, so we have like a 35, 40 minute commute into the studio every day. And it's like you're just starting your day and then like you get to like 42nd Street, Port Authority, and you just see like some crazy. Like as soon as you're, you know,

[Lawrence]

walking out, someone's getting attacked with a hammer.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, yeah, it's like that. And then just like a million tourists and you just want to get to work and like have a peaceful morning.

[Lawrence]

What time you guys each get to the studio? Oh, that's eight at the same time. And

[Nick Williams]

I'd say we average these days like around like between 10 and 11.

[James]

Most easy breezy.

[Phil Ayers]

And then when, yeah, we're trying it. We're always we. I feel like every like two week, every like every couple of weeks, just like, all right, we're going to start making an effort to really get there earlier these days, you know, And Phil's

[Lawrence]

got to surf, bro.

[Phil Ayers]

I do have to serve. But when I don't survive, yeah, I got to, I can get to work earlier.

[Nick Williams]

But I mean, I also feel like my, my best working hours are between like, like 5 and 8:30pm okay. So I feel like the morning is, is very, the morning is kind of like my time. Like I like to have a little time before I go into work. And I, I feel like it takes like the middle of the afternoon trash after you eat lunch.

[James]

Nap time.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. And then something happens around 5 o' clock when shit is shutting down where I'm like, all right, I can get shit done.

[Phil Ayers]

I, I hit a wall around five. I feel like though, like, you know, we, I usually leave work around six every day and I feel like the last hour of work I'm just like, I'm kind of cooked.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, sure.

[Phil Ayers]

And yeah, I like, I like getting there a little earlier if I can. And I feel like I'm Most productive. Kind of like late morning.

[Lawrence]

What's the midday. What's the kush policy? Oh, at sts.

[Nick Williams]

Well, we're both. Yeah. Neither of us smoke weed anymore.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, we used to be big, big pothead.

[James]

And you're like recovering potheads over here.

[Lawrence]

We gotta. We gotta sell, so we gotta lock it.

[James]

We are getting nothing done.

[Lawrence]

Dude, I like tortas in Sunset park, bro.

[Phil Ayers]

I know. That was. Those were the days I used to like, like, gay. I was working on, like, custom garments. I would, you know, because it's a 30. 30 drawings on a single garment. I would, like, smoke a spliff after finishing every draw.

[Nick Williams]

Whoa.

[James]

That is a lot of weed, brother.

[Phil Ayers]

They were heavily, heavily tobaccoed.

[James]

How.

[Phil Ayers]

Mostly cigarettes. I was just like, if I. If I sprinkle.

[James]

They were a reward after every drawing.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, I guess. How faded were you when you made my pair of pants?

[Nick Williams]

It might have been, like, right around the time when we were not smoking, weeding ourselves.

[James]

Your pants made them quit?

[Lawrence]

Dude, it's like the. It's like the. The meme with the horse where it's like, beautiful ass at the. At the head.

[James]

Yeah, but it's a shrimp in your

[Lawrence]

case or whatever is on your Diet Pepsi.

[James]

Is there a Diet Pepsi on there?

[Lawrence]

Yeah.

[James]

Oh, my God. Hell, yeah.

[Lawrence]

But the next Diet Pepsi. Nice.

[Phil Ayers]

Neil Young.

[Lawrence]

Neil Young.

[Nick Williams]

The only time we've ever gotten in trouble on making somebody a custom garment was that there was somebody that we made a beautiful jacket for. But we left off. It was like a woman buying something for her husband. And we left off the Coke Zero logo.

[Phil Ayers]

No, a can. A can.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

And they were like, this is what the one thing you need to have on here? Well, basically, I mean, wow.

[Nick Williams]

They first were like, this is so fire. We love it. And that was like, texted to Phil. We had the receipts, and then a few days later, she was like, wait, where's the Coke? Where's the Coke Zero?

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

Well, it's crazy.

[James]

I want a refund.

[Lawrence]

I was too high. Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

That was really the only. I mean, I'm sure we've had a few customers that were less than, like, elated with that, you know, are just like, we're a little. You know, we're Ms. Wish. Wish it had turned out a little differently. But the only time we've really liked. Had that voice. To us, this custom. It was like a rush job for a couple that was engaged. It was a gift to someone's fiance, and we. We finished. You know, usually, I mean, I don't know, as, you know, or don't know. But there was like, there could be like up to like a six month wait. Just the queue for the customs would get very long and someone needed it with like a two week turnaround.

[Lawrence]

Bro, I can only smoke some as many splits as I can.

[Phil Ayers]

So we, we did a rush job and they got it and they were hyped on it. And. And also this customer from the get go, like required just a lot of, I don't know, attention. Yeah, handling and attention. So she actually, she wanted to like speak on the phone before him, which is not something we usually did. We always kept it to email or like DMS or whatever. And so I had like a phone conversation with her. So then she had my number.

[James]

Oh no.

[Phil Ayers]

And so when we finished the garment initially she sent me all these photos of her fiance wearing the thing and was like, he loves it. We love it. Thank you so much. And then like 24 hours later she's like, I noticed the Coke Zero can that we wanted is not on here. And she was asking if she could ship it back to us and have us add the Coke Zero can. I was like, we can't do that. I'm sorry. Like, we are. We're busy. And that. We've never done that. And like there's truly. We covered the entire jacket. There's no room to squ. Unless you want like a tiny. But I was like, no, we can't do that. So then she got, you know, very, very upset and she just went ahead and hit us with the charge. She hit us with a charge because

[James]

of a Coke Zero drawing?

[Nick Williams]

Hundred.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, for like 15. And it was at a time when like that $1500 was critical.

[Lawrence]

That's a lot of tacos.

[Phil Ayers]

So luckily we could dispute it. And because I had all these like photos of her giddy ass fiance, like posing in the jacket, all happy.

[James]

Gotcha.

[Phil Ayers]

And text receipts could include those screenshots. And we won. We won the just wow. Money back shout out stripe.

[James]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

What's cokeheads, bro? Like how much do they love Coke Zero?

[Phil Ayers]

That much I know.

[James]

Of all the things I know, dude.

[Lawrence]

Like, I'm sorry, I was too high. Damn brutal.

[Phil Ayers]

What a respect.

[Lawrence]

I mean.

[James]

No, no, no respect. Don't get any ideas.

[Phil Ayers]

No, I mean, just.

[Lawrence]

I don't.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, I don't want to trash talk anymore.

[Lawrence]

Anyone.

[Phil Ayers]

We, we have respect for all of our customers. But yeah, that was a.

[James]

But no respect for Coke Zero.

[Phil Ayers]

That was a whack ass move. And it, you know, we put a lot, we put a lot of work into those pieces.

[Lawrence]

If someone's like, hey, I want these 20 things on here, you're like, well, I'm only. I'm gonna choose.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, we're very explicit.

[Nick Williams]

Or we were.

[Phil Ayers]

We're not doing those, but we were very explicit with, like, this is going to be kind of our interpretation of your list of things you want, and we're going to extrapolate a little bit and just, you know, you know that this is, like, through our lens. And so it's. It's not going to be, like, verbatim a direct translation of everything that you want on there.

[Lawrence]

That's a lot of kind of, like, I don't know, customer service, time management, load management. Pause as you guys have, like, started it from your bedroom, Literally. Right. Is your fucking bedroom.

[Phil Ayers]

Yep.

[Lawrence]

What has been. Maybe. I don't know if anyone listening out there, maybe they want to start a brand. What has been, like, the hardest thing about launching and maintaining and growing a small, independent brand?

[Nick Williams]

I think. I mean, we talk about this a lot, but it's like, you know, regardless of scale, I feel like we're still kind of responsible for the same number of things that. Like a much larger brand that has teams to take care of each individual area of the business. Yeah. And it's a lot between two people to be doing, you know, like, everything from design, production, getting orders out on time, customer service. We were doing the customs, like, for the first couple years, we were doing ready to wear, all the marketing, pr, managing shoots. Like, all that is a lot between two people. And I mean, we're both, like, very hyped to be in the position to be doing that at all. But I would say take it slow and keep your day job until you

[James]

don't quit your day jobs.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lawrence]

Your day job was teaching a bunch of drug addicts making art.

[Nick Williams]

Was. I was teaching, like, older, formerly homeless people in. In Brownsville that.

[James]

Unhoused.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, most. Most of them were pretty heavy drug users, and they were, like, a great crew of people to hang out with. And we.

[Lawrence]

Hell yeah.

[Nick Williams]

My. My job was to lead art classes at this, like, supportive housing facility, but it really went a lot more like leading, like, an AA group or something. Like, I would get the coffee maker started. We put the Wendy Williams show on.

[James]

Hell, yeah.

[Nick Williams]

People would trickle in and we. I would have something queued up, but we would either just, like, play dominoes and watch Wendy Williams and just, like, I would listen to them tell stories or if there was a few people that were into making something, we Would do some art.

[James]

They were helping you.

[Lawrence]

Could you. Do you ever see maybe enlisting their services and paying them to make some graphics as you guys experience graphic fatigue internally? Maybe this is a whole team of graphic artists. You could tap into cheap too, and pay accordingly.

[James]

Yeah, just. Just a couple sacks, dude. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Here's a bag. Go crazy.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah.

[James]

You got this, champ.

[Nick Williams]

We. I feel like we've had so many conversations about, like, what it would look like to bring people into the studio, like, as a. As you know, employees or something. And the only times we've ever done it to any success, it's always been people that we already were.

[Lawrence]

All right, so you don't want to give back to the community.

[James]

Right? Keep in the family. Don't spread the resources.

[Lawrence]

Have you done, like, besides collaboration with throwing, have you ever done any, like, artist collabs?

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, yeah, pretty much. I mean, yeah, artist collabs or other brands, friends, pretty much like every collection we have like one or two pieces that are nice artists collabs someone that. And that's like. That's one of our favorite parts. It's like bringing someone in whose work we admire and just pay to do the work.

[Lawrence]

You don't do the work yourself.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah. Or, you know, there's still work that we have to. To do on our side. But it's like get to like, recontextualize their art in a way and put it, you know, out through our brand is like. Is very sick. And we've. We did that from the first. First season we did with Nick from Daytime Novella.

[Nick Williams]

Right.

[Phil Ayers]

We did the hoodie. We did a hoodie with him, printed hoodie. And that was the hoodie that ultimately ended up on Selena Gomez. Oh, four years later or whatever, when

[Lawrence]

she was like, sucking on Benny Blanco's

[Phil Ayers]

toes or something like that.

[Nick Williams]

Right.

[James]

I think it was Bieber's toes back then.

[Phil Ayers]

I don't know.

[Lawrence]

Benny Dam. Were you not. Wait, so you. So it ended up on her four years later. Did you have them in stock?

[Phil Ayers]

No, we didn't. That was actually a problem. And it was. It was funny because Benny hit us up and wanted like a freshie because he had. He had one that was like, pretty. Pretty thrashed from when it had initially come out. And he wanted a fresh one, and we didn't have any in stock. And so we thought that was kind of. But we were like, but we do have all these in stock, like, other styles. And he just left us on red or whatever. And then. And then like two weeks later, all this press stuff. Comes out for, like, Selena's new album and she's just wearing his old, like, thrashed small talk hoodie.

[James]

Does this lebship move the needle like Kareem at the Golden Globes or Selena Gomez sucking Benny's toes, etc.

[Lawrence]

Does that like Patrick Schwarzenegger.

[James]

Patrick Schwarzenegger in the throne fit? Shit that did. That was real. Yeah. Does that, like. Do you see the effects of that? Like the ripple effects, or is that more just like feathering our cap? Put it on social, keep it pushing.

[Nick Williams]

It really depends. I mean. Yeah, shout out to Kareem for taking a fall down the stairs on the red carpet in our suit.

[James]

Classic bit. Shout out. Jason.

[Lawrence]

Hey, this suit held up.

[James]

Yeah, that's true.

[Nick Williams]

Definitely did hold up.

[James]

If it had ripped, that would have been bad.

[Lawrence]

Dude, his balls just pop out. Oh, dude. Kravitz style.

[James]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

100. Don't want to see that.

[Nick Williams]

Did Lenny Craft.

[James]

Yeah, he tore his leather pants probably on stage in his whole twig and body. But if his log and acorns popped out.

[Lawrence]

Wait, I think just the acorns.

[James]

No, I think it was his. His full. His full meat.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, I think it was everything seems like an op.

[James]

Yeah. But I mean, good press for him. Great dick, dude. Congrats.

[Nick Williams]

I mean, it really depends. And you kind of don't.

[James]

No.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah. Until more often than not, like, you're not getting any credit for that. So, like, people see that, but they don't know.

[James]

Right.

[Phil Ayers]

Who. What brand that is or who you know. And then there are, you know, obviously for some certain celebrities, there are like a million pages breaking down. Celebrities outfits and stuff. But it's like, I don't know who actually follows those pages.

[Nick Williams]

Chrome Hearts fans, Kareem Fitz, you know, the big ones.

[Phil Ayers]

But yeah, it's re. It really depends. And sometimes the. That, like, you don't expect is what moves the needle and turns people onto the brand.

[James]

It goes crazy.

[Phil Ayers]

It's not like the biggest.

[James]

Yeah, right.

[Phil Ayers]

It's someone a little more underspect.

[Lawrence]

Have you guys started to have to play the game more? Whether that's like, sucking editors dicks or seating influencers or listening to, like, trend forecasters and like, have you. As. As the brand has grown, have you, like, had to play the game?

[Nick Williams]

I would say it's kind of the opposite. I think we've. We get to play the game a little less now. I think. I think we put in some pretty good work the first, like, two years that the brand was in operation. And I think now we can. I mean, we still like to be out a lot, but, like, I don't think we feel like we've got to be at, like, every thing, and it's. It doesn't always feel like networking. Don't. You know? I think if there's something we really are excited about and we need to, like, get it on some people's radars, then we. We will reach out to friends who are writers or, like, you guys, and. And that always is helpful, but I feel like it never feels like we got to play the game all that much.

[James]

That's great. You're lucky, man.

[Nick Williams]

Feel.

[Lawrence]

Just secretly hit your vapor vape, you know, you're on camera.

[James]

No, bro, it's fine. You can vape.

[Phil Ayers]

Mom. I don't vape.

[James]

Sorry.

[Phil Ayers]

Your mom.

[James]

Your mom is our, like, number one patron. She's big, but we'll cut that out. Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

On a plane. He's. He's.

[James]

Oh.

[Nick Williams]

Pretty sneaky with it.

[Phil Ayers]

All right.

[Lawrence]

Are you in this? Are you in this?

[James]

Allegedly.

[Lawrence]

How does this hoodie. How does this hoodie hide the mask?

[Phil Ayers]

That. Yeah, it's vape.

[Nick Williams]

That's. That's 475gsm.

[James]

Don't do it in the linen. Fauzy hoodie dude look like girls on fire.

[Lawrence]

Like, this guy's got a bomb on him.

[James]

Who's that? Wait, real quick, back to collabs. You talked about collabing with friends, artists. Who's a dream collab. Who, if you would. If you could manifest right now, who's the one?

[Nick Williams]

Honestly, for a minute, it's been. I think we both are big fans of our legacy workshop as like a collab sort of. It's like the antidote to, you know, this collab shouldn't happen. Like, they. They're so intentional with it. It's like, it's a very wide ranging, you know, like, series of people that they work with. And the fact that it's, like, bound by the constraints of, you know, reusing old dead stock fabric and shit is. It's just really cool. And I feel like we have always felt like we could do something very safe. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Yokem, if you're listening. Yeah.

[James]

Please make it happen.

[Lawrence]

Christoph realsink. There are a lot of collabs out there, right? It's kind of like a crutch. A lot of brands lean on. There's a lot of out there, period. What are you sick of seeing in menswear right now? Be anything the. A garment. It could be a business practice. It could be a marketing tactic.

[Nick Williams]

I mean, I think kind of Going back to what we were talking about earlier, like the sort of residual quiet luxury narrowing of like people's conception of like what looks good. I feel like a couple years ago people were a lot freer and looser with how they were getting dressed, which, like, you know, and I'm talking specifically within kind of like our larger sphere of menswear. Like.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

And it feels like the discourse has sort of narrowed in a bit since then to stuff that's a lot more monochromatic and minimal, which is cool, like as a lane, but it feels like it's, it's become a bit of like

[Phil Ayers]

their entire brands, like defined around by that.

[James]

And yeah, it's killed personal style. Right. To some degree if everyone is looking homogeneous.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, a little bit. I mean, personality for sure.

[James]

If they had it to begin with.

[Nick Williams]

It's all like good clothing for sure. And I definitely look up to some of those brands. But like, I mean, to me it's, there's, there's things that are like, you know, great achievements in like fabric development or silhouette or whatever and feel great to put on. And then there's shit that like somebody's entire like creative practice and world around their brand is like actually inspiring. And I feel like it's a little harder to find that in these like hyper minimal menswear designers.

[Lawrence]

But is that, to put be a little devil's advocate, is that a good thing? That it is like, I don't know, hard, harder to find and do separates

[Phil Ayers]

like the great ones from the mediocre

[James]

ones from the Instagram brands, Buy knives

[Lawrence]

or, or is it again then playing devil said on myself, it's like, well, if you're drowned with the midairy, like, what does it even matter if there is like gold out there if you're just like mid from wall to wall?

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. I mean, I do agree that like having to dig a little bit is worthwhile and maybe like there was a lot of low hanging fruit for many years, but I think maybe more. What I'm talking about is like when like the things that feel inspiring to me right now is a lot of like women's designers, like smaller women's designers, you know, here, like, I love what SC103 does. I love what Emily Don Long does. Santangelo jewelry and like styling and Kate Walsh. Like, I just feel like there's a much freer, more expansive template that doesn't have as many codes. Or maybe I'm just like, not as aware of the codes but like that shit, whether I'm like Wearing it or not, it's. It's exciting to see and it's, like, genuinely inspiring.

[James]

I think there's a downside of, like, classic menswear, which, like, you know, you could debate that so you're blue in the face, but as that, like, comes back and it's trendy, it's like, oh,

[Lawrence]

oh, but what about all the rules?

[James]

So say it's like, oh, now we're talking about fucking rules. Like, get out of here, dude. But that's like just kind of. It comes in. It's like the baggage that comes with that fucking stuff. Yeah, unfortunately.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, I agree. And, like, I just think, like, this shit should be fun. Like, we're, you know, the market is very saturated with a lot of the same shit, and, like, if we. There doesn't need to be more of it. So, like, if we are making anything we want it to, we want to have some fun with it and, like, experiment and try things that are maybe a little bolder, unconventional, but, like, it's. It should be fun. And, like, getting dressed should be fun and you should take risks. And we want to, like, encourage our customers to do that and show them ways that you can. You can have, like, moments in your wardrobe that are a little louder and more playful and fun. And, like, you can still style that in ways that's not, like, obnoxious and

[Lawrence]

totally, you know, it's not fun. Fast fashion. How many times have you guys seen bigger brands or fast fashion brands jack your shit?

[Nick Williams]

I mean, it's definitely happened to varying degrees. I think, like, the most obvious one that a customer pointed out to us was Walmart. Somebody, a seller on Walmart's like, like, online marketplace.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

Just fully ripped a screenshot of this T shirt from our Spring Summer 25 collection. That was a beautiful little frog that Phil lovingly illustrated or painted. Yeah. And they literally used the photo from our website where you can see the small talk tag in it. And Jesus put it up on Walmart for, like, you know, $18. Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

Customer was look like was interested in that shirt and it was sold out on our website. That shirt was stocked at different retailers, both domestically and internationally. And he. He, I guess in his search just came across the Walmart page and. And brought it to our attention.

[Lawrence]

Did he do anything?

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, Nick bought a shirt.

[James]

Oh, yeah. Well, what was the review? Dude, how did you.

[Nick Williams]

It was pretty trash, but, like, not as bad as I thought it was going to be. Like. I mean, there definitely was some. I'm assuming there was a little bit of AI Used to like soften some edges, like, because I think the only way they could have done it is to like take that screenshot, rip the graphic from it and then like clean it up in Photoshop and reprint it. And all things considered it, it didn't look as bad as I thought, but it was pretty bad.

[Phil Ayers]

And it was like a graphic tee that just said like small talk right too. As part of the graphic.

[James]

This frog is sick. What if I just stole it, dude?

[Phil Ayers]

Well, they were like the, the description was like cool. Like quirky tea for music lovers.

[Lawrence]

Hipster tea.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Do you think. Who do you think made more money off that graphic? You guys are this swaggerjacker?

[Nick Williams]

That's a good question.

[Phil Ayers]

I don't.

[James]

18 bucks. You gotta sell a lot, dude way of gauging that.

[Lawrence]

I mean they got the Walmart, they

[James]

got the Walmart platform, they got Nick's money.

[Lawrence]

Did you write that off? Like, what do you tell your accountants?

[Phil Ayers]

Like, dude, our accountant did ask us. Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

Like a few days ago. We got like a list of a couple of like uncategorized expenses and there was like walmart.com18 and I was like, I. I need a little more space to explain.

[James]

Yeah. How much time do you have, dude?

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Do you know what Swagger Jack me?

[Nick Williams]

I. Yeah, I mean I feel like it's possible that they made some money off of that. They did take it down like very shortly after I copped one.

[Lawrence]

But did you call from you calling them out or like did you take legal?

[Nick Williams]

I mean we didn't really do we

[Phil Ayers]

like softly posted about it on like our story.

[James]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Did you ship. Did you buy it? Because I don't know how worse with Walmart Marketplace, like did. Did they fulfill the order and see that it is going to like Small Talk Studio in New York? Because I'm like, oh.

[Nick Williams]

So I mean I did use nick@smalltalkstudio smart for the email for as a customer.

[James]

So classy shot across the bow. Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Hoping to get a discount

[Phil Ayers]

creator discount.

[Lawrence]

That's why I use my throwing 50 mil when I shopped open that.

[Nick Williams]

Oh, 10.

[James]

You never know.

[Lawrence]

You never know.

[James]

You never know who's listening.

[Lawrence]

It's never worked.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I. It's very hard to tell. Like I think if it was actually Walmart, you know, like if it was the type of thing where that was something that was running in their store. Like in the men's section.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

It would be a much more cut and dry. Like oh, you guys are making a fucking killing off of this. Yeah. But now it's their platform is like Amazon.

[James]

Right.

[Nick Williams]

It's just like probably some random fucking teenager who is drop shipping shit.

[James]

Yeah. And wild west shit, you know.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lawrence]

But honestly, cool frog T shirt. MILF milk man. I love frogs. Yeah, that's pretty sick.

[James]

That's so true. That's what it stands for.

[Lawrence]

This is you guys all right?

[Nick Williams]

No, it's been scrubbed. It seems like.

[James]

Thank God.

[Lawrence]

There's some pretty sick frog teas out there by the way.

[James]

A lot of options. Guys.

[Phil Ayers]

We got some more frog teas coming in this spring collection.

[Lawrence]

I'm. I'm Lawrence. Called it. We called it. Graphics are back. We think you know, streetwear is more excited than men's right now. Know I'm gonna be digging into that small. Small talk spring 26 graphic.

[Nick Williams]

Oh yeah.

[James]

Get my frog bag.

[Lawrence]

Besides Walmart, what brands are most represented in each of your respective closets?

[Nick Williams]

Oh, that's a good question.

[Phil Ayers]

That is a. That's a great question.

[Lawrence]

And besides small talk. Yeah, besides small talk and Walmart.

[James]

Yeah. They don't count the two big. The two major food groups. Put.

[Lawrence]

Put on some other homies.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. I mean we both.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah all. I personally I don't love shopping. I like going to our friends stores where we work. Whether that's like Chad vintage store.

[Lawrence]

Oh like where small talk isn't stocked.

[Phil Ayers]

Well that or it's like the stockists here locally where you know, those are our friends. Whether it's Colbo, Cueva and Sun or blue and Green. Love.

[Lawrence]

Are those your four? The big four?

[Phil Ayers]

Those are the big four.

[Lawrence]

What.

[Phil Ayers]

But yeah, I feel like it's supporting them and then it's like supporting friends brands. Like I, I personally otherwise do not love. I do not really enjoy shopping but I love, I love putting on like our friends shit.

[Lawrence]

Who are those four stores? Cueva and Sun Callba Balloon Green. Who has the best small talk sell through rate?

[Nick Williams]

Oh damn. Honestly not.

[Lawrence]

It was the worst.

[Nick Williams]

I think like when we first started working with all four stores. I feel like there was a bit of a. Some, some caution coming from our sales agents at the time where they were like, you know, you guys know New York best. Like but you know those are all stores within a very close radius. Like you sure you want to work with all four? And we were like let's see what happens. And honestly like all four of them like pretty much seem to sell out every season. Each store some reorder.

[Lawrence]

So each store is pretty distinctive.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, they have pretty unique buys and we can Sort of help direct that to make sure there's not too much overlap and stuff. But even without any input from us, I feel like they do have pretty distinct.

[Lawrence]

Yeah. And it helps to kind of recontextualize the brand. Brand each time where it's like the way it sits in cobalt is going to be different than the way it sits in blue and green.

[Phil Ayers]

Totally.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

It's like, oh, this is like a contemporary, you know, Cobo. Whatever. We love Cobo, whatever the fuck it is. Versus blue and green, which is like. Oh, Japanese.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lawrence]

Like sick Japanese brands.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, for sure.

[Lawrence]

Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

But yeah, I feel like homies, like, obviously, like Kartik.

[James]

Sure.

[Phil Ayers]

Nick doing daytime. Novella, Sage. We used to share. Be in the same showroom as like, like Carter, Sage, Kartik, and I feel like there was just a lot of, like, damn. Sharing of clothes.

[James]

Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

Sick little incubator.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. And yeah, I mean, also this. This upcoming June, we're. We're returning to Paris and we're going to share a showroom with, like, three of our favorite local designers and, like, good friends. Onea, who does Silphium, Cole has a brand called Chillag. And then Mark does Archie, and it'll be the four of us sharing a showroom.

[James]

Nice little spread, dude.

[Nick Williams]

Party.

[Lawrence]

Small talk party.

[Phil Ayers]

That was talking about it, but we.

[Nick Williams]

We probably will have a party, but I think it's not going to be in the showroom because we landed on a pretty small space also.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah. Definitely more fun to have it, not

[James]

just doing the street. Dude. Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

Fete la musique.

[James]

Yeah. Block party.

[Lawrence]

What's. And this is small talk inclusive. What's the one piece of clothing you each wear the most?

[Phil Ayers]

From our own ships.

[James]

You know, you tell us.

[Nick Williams]

I mean, I think the thing that I wear most that's non. Small talk is I bought this. This. It's kind of like a. It's part bomber, part liner. It's this reversible. It's by this brand, Desert, that I think was like, former Comb designer who was there at the start of the brand and then started his own sort of, like, line called desert in the 80s and 90s. And they. It's like D E Z E R T. Very cool. Yeah. And the archivist in Paris has, like, a lot of their pieces. And I bought this Bomber that is. It's one of those pieces that you see it on the rack and you're like, there's no way that's going to work. And then you put it on the best. Fits perfectly. It's kind Of a crazy, like, pattern block, and it fits perfectly over a hoodie. So it's like. For me, it's like small talk zip hoodie, the desert bomber on top, and then like some small talk pleated pants or jeans.

[James]

Magna.

[Lawrence]

What's the one small talk piece you wear the most?

[Nick Williams]

Probably these sumi dyed pleated pants, which we're. We're thinking about running back for spring

[James]

27, because you need a new pair, you know, so.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, the wear testing is complete.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, Phil.

[Phil Ayers]

I'm a big vest guy.

[James]

Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

Sweater vest guy.

[James]

He is.

[Phil Ayers]

Oh, you are.

[Lawrence]

You are.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah. I got one fact I got one from checks out. I got one at Colbo from Sage a few years ago, and I love that thing and I wear it all the time now. It's a little too warm for it, but in the. In the winter months, the colder months, I wear that very, very often. And then for a small talk piece, honestly, probably the both colorways of the daytime novella hoodie we did in our first, like, fall winter 23 collection.

[Lawrence]

Sent one to Selena.

[Phil Ayers]

She doesn't want my. Mine are thrash. Personally, I mean, props to Nick. Like, that was his hoodie silhouette, which is incredible. And like, the. The dyes on those and just everything. The. The fit's amazing. And yeah, I feel like that is what I wear the most from test. Yeah, it's easy. Easy to throw on.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Love a blanket hoodie. All right, we want to know how much money do each of you make and maybe say it at the same time so that if there's any discrepancies.

[James]

Yep, some. Gotcha.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, we'll know right away.

[Phil Ayers]

Okay, you want to count us up?

[James]

1, 1, 2, 3.

[Phil Ayers]

9.

[Nick Williams]

About to be a lot more in 2026.

[James]

I love that. Glass half full, glass half empty. Duality of man Yang right there. Wow, look at that. Okay, moving on. Perfect answer.

[Lawrence]

You guys want to business together?

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah. No, I'm just kidding.

[Nick Williams]

Honestly, like, we're. We're really hyped about this. This, like, blanks line that we're launching, and it feels like a way to kind of like, take a little bit of the pressure off of the. The wholesale collections, which we fully are excited to keep making. But I think it's been really nice just in taking sales into our own hands with our wholesale and everything to take some of the voices out of our ears and certainly not thinking of anyone specific. Our agents, Greg and Kirk from dmsr were super helpful the whole time we worked with them, and we love those guys, but more so just the sort of sea of buyers that you're talking to and, and just you're getting a lot of, lot of advice and sometimes you take it against better judgment and you end up with something that you actually didn't need to make. And I think starting this, we have like really dialed in the zip hoodies, the T shirts, the long sleeves and we have like amazing production Connect in LA now Shout out Glenny and, and it's. We're like so happy with this stuff and it's been like the last year has been a trial for it where we haven't officially launched it and it's been, we've been pretty like wall to wall booked with projects.

[Lawrence]

Is that spring 26, the. The basics?

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, we'll start with, in conjunction with like launching our Spring 26 collection.

[Lawrence]

We can ask how much a T shirt will run because I love the cut of small talk tees.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. A single like, like blank T shirt. It'll depend a little bit because there'll be like some that are a little more involved with like the dye and thing but they'll be more in the like 75 to 90 range.

[James]

Basically free folks.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah. And then zip hoodies I think will be in the like 150 to 180.

[James]

Hell yeah.

[Nick Williams]

Range.

[James]

You deserve to eat off of that. Just based on again like James's point, like the fits great. So if you just want something, only

[Lawrence]

zip hoodies, no pullovers, we'll.

[Nick Williams]

We are making pullovers.

[Phil Ayers]

We do have some pullovers.

[James]

Yeah. People want zips now. Like that's the thing.

[Phil Ayers]

Honestly, this first batch we're mostly focused on, on selling the zips. We've got a few.

[Lawrence]

Is that because that's what the trend is now or like what dictated that decision?

[Phil Ayers]

I think just like kind of add to wear testing. Yeah, wear testing. I think we also just kind of had to like pick one or the other for the first round. We've obviously sampled and we've produced some pullovers but for what we want to like stock and offer, we just kind of zeroed in on the, on the, on the zips. But, but yeah, we basically like this blank line basics line. We over the years have done a lot of merch related projects for other businesses, other brands and we've done the design work and little by little like wanted to be kind of a one stop shop where people can use our garments, our, you know, our production. We can do the design work, oversee production and it's just like kind of like of all in house and yeah,

[Lawrence]

you guys are you guys come off as like chill dudes, but this is really cutthroat business. Yeah, it's vertical integration.

[Nick Williams]

That's the plan.

[James]

Watch out.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, you're owning the factories. What if you guys ever set to make a lot of money in 2026, as you mentioned, inshallah. As adults, what is the brokest behavior you've had to indulge in as starving artists?

[Nick Williams]

The first thing that comes to mind, and for me is we. There was a time.

[Phil Ayers]

I know where this is going.

[Nick Williams]

A few years ago when, when like we had this old email address that was associated with small talk and we later upgraded to something a little more professional.

[James]

You got. You bought the URL.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, exactly.

[Phil Ayers]

GoDaddy.

[Lawrence]

The.

[Nick Williams]

The. My personal bank account was still synced up with that. That email and Phil was getting forwarding like forwarded emails from that email. And there was a time like probably like three years ago when I was still single and I would be on dates sometimes and there was a few times when the card got declined and

[Phil Ayers]

Phil, Phil got the note. I would know where Nick was, what he was up to, and I would get an email.

[Lawrence]

It's like, oh, only two drinks. That's not. That's date's not going anywhere.

[James]

Yeah. Phil is the. He's like the key master for whether or not Nick gets or not the next morning.

[Phil Ayers]

How was that day last night?

[Lawrence]

Would you have to like, emergency dump

[Phil Ayers]

some funds in from like always, always bail my boy out?

[Lawrence]

Yeah, bro, I got you. Before the second location. Go, go, go.

[James]

The best kind of bailout. Damn, that's incredible.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

What would you. What would you say in front of the girl in front of the date?

[Nick Williams]

I would just be almost small business owners.

[James]

I got to check with my business manager first.

[Nick Williams]

Let me.

[Phil Ayers]

Let me call my accountant.

[James]

Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

I would say the other, Other. Other broke boy behavior. We maybe like two years ago we were tapped to do a shirt for Chipotle.

[Nick Williams]

Oh.

[Phil Ayers]

And we did a graphic tee for them around the. Around the holiday season. It was a nice little bit. It was one T shirt graphic. But it was like the work to pay off ratio sure was. Was solid.

[Nick Williams]

We had had up to that point.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, it was. It was good.

[Lawrence]

How did Chipotle.

[Phil Ayers]

I don't know how they pulled her. I don't know.

[Nick Williams]

They had some young PR person. Yeah. Because I remember when it went live, Chipotle was commenting on their own post, which I'm assuming was the voice of that PR person.

[James]

Right.

[Nick Williams]

Making some like, pretty.

[Lawrence]

You slayed spicy.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah.

[James]

Literally silence. Brand but yeah, we.

[Phil Ayers]

We did a T shirt graphic for them, got paid out great. And then as like, a little add on, they gave us like, four free burrito, like, burrito vouchers total. And I just remember this is. This is when Alex worked with us and he.

[Lawrence]

That's why I had to fire him.

[James]

Yeah, I need your vouchers, dog bro.

[Lawrence]

For them. It was like. Like, it was like.

[Phil Ayers]

It was like four weeks after the project. And he. There's a Chipotle, like, right around the studio. We've actually, all of our studios have always been very close to Chipotle. Never. Yeah, I guess real food.

[James]

Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

But Alex went to the Chipotle and tried to cash in on one of the. The vouch with one of the vouchers, and they told him it had expired.

[Lawrence]

No, he couldn't.

[Phil Ayers]

It was like. It was like within the month or not much more than a month after we got the voucher.

[Nick Williams]

Like, the whole reason he was. He had stooped to that level of using the voucher in the first place was because we were waiting on that check from Chipotle.

[Phil Ayers]

That is true. Hadn't landed. And we had these four vouchers.

[Lawrence]

Time to the vouch. Time to the voucher basket.

[Nick Williams]

Exactly.

[James]

Wow.

[Phil Ayers]

And it bounced. So you didn't.

[Lawrence]

So no one had lunch that day?

[Phil Ayers]

No.

[Lawrence]

What the Chipotle?

[Nick Williams]

Damn it.

[James]

Cheap Glock not even included, dude.

[Nick Williams]

That's right.

[Lawrence]

You just steal a bunch of napkins, steal the bottle.

[James]

Wow. Dark days, fellas. Dark days.

[Lawrence]

But is that the biggest, like, brand that's approached you guys to work together? Has Zara come to you guys yet?

[Phil Ayers]

No, I mean, Carhartt, work in progress. Like, oh, sick. Very early on, before we even did Ready to Wear. That was, like, probably the biggest.

[Nick Williams]

Yeah, I think so. Carhartt, I mean, truly, like, we. We've done some really good stuff with Kartik over the years, too. And now I'm like, is Kartik bigger than car?

[James]

No, it's Kartik bigger than Chipotle.

[Lawrence]

What the hell is going on?

[James]

Shout out to Kartik, man.

[Lawrence]

Kartik would never turn down your voucher, though. Damn.

[Nick Williams]

Sure.

[Phil Ayers]

No, no, no.

[James]

He'd get you double meat pause sauce.

[Lawrence]

All right.

[James]

Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

I don't know.

[Nick Williams]

There were.

[Phil Ayers]

There have been good stuff. I feel like it's also interesting. I just feel like, you know, and I don't know if it's, like, playing the game, but I feel like just talking about, like, maybe we played the game a little more earlier on. I also feel like earlier on there were, like, more. And maybe it's just because we were like a newer name, a newer brand that people didn't know about as much. But I felt like there were. Without us doing any, like, you know, PR or anything, really, there was like, brands were coming to us, like, with projects and stuff, and it feels like that's that slow, like. Or that there's like an ebb and flow to that new kid on the

[James]

block kind of probably vibes.

[Lawrence]

Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

I think also, like, starting ready to wear put us in, like, a different category.

[Phil Ayers]

True.

[Nick Williams]

Before it was more like a artist, like collaboration, and now it's sort of like, you know, how do we make our world and their world, I think, together.

[Lawrence]

Register with Chipotle that you tried to redeem the voucher and they fucking poison your name. They're like, yo, you'll never work in this town again. Try to get a free burrito from us. How fucking dare you?

[Nick Williams]

Those. Those were fucking dummy vouchers.

[James]

Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

Totally fell for it.

[James]

They got them off Walmart Marketplace.

[Nick Williams]

Dude.

[Lawrence]

Idiots. You idiots. I'm just kidding. We love you guys. We love small talk. We love you each as individuals and as the dynamic duo that you are. Before we get you out of here, I guess call it a day. An early day. 3:54pm, 6:00pm, 8:30pm yeah. Do you guys have any constructive criticism you'd like to give us as a fellow dynamic duo?

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, I just want to hear about your process a little bit. Like, you're asking us, do we ever fight? How do you criticize, you know, how do you offer constructive criticism to one another? Curious to know what your working dynamic as a we don't really duo is.

[Lawrence]

We don't really, really make it.

[James]

Yeah. We don't. We don't contribute to society, so it's pretty easy.

[Phil Ayers]

Well, also, beyond that, it's like, I don't know. We obviously, like, we work together, are.

[Lawrence]

We're kind of live together.

[Phil Ayers]

Are we best friends? We're kind of best friends. Like, our social lives are so intermeshed. It's just like a lot of.

[Lawrence]

Do you ever. To plan time apart?

[Phil Ayers]

I think we plan. We plan our vacations sort of.

[Nick Williams]

Of.

[Phil Ayers]

We. We try to sync up, I would say.

[James]

Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

Separately.

[James]

Right, right, right.

[Phil Ayers]

Totally.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, we do that.

[James]

Yeah. Calendar overlap is important.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, it's hard for us. Yeah. Just hard to get away from the studio. And so when we do, we want to just maximize. Sure.

[James]

And you're on the same schedule, so the recharge is, you know, it's at the Same time. That makes total sense.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, you get. You get out. You get out to Paris on the business card.

[James]

Not just your spring right off else

[Lawrence]

you want to go.

[Nick Williams]

You're gonna see you guys there in June.

[James]

You know it.

[Lawrence]

Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

Hell yeah.

[Lawrence]

I'll see you there. Maybe. Maybe we'll see you at the soiree. Maybe we'll see you at. Absolutely. I don't know.

[James]

Yeah. Who knows?

[Lawrence]

I'm just making up at this point.

[James]

There might be a lot of.

[Phil Ayers]

Lot of invite a venue locked in.

[James]

No, not yet. Streets.

[Lawrence]

Less streets, baby.

[James]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

All right.

[Nick Williams]

I don't have any constructive.

[Lawrence]

I forgot there's two of you.

[Nick Williams]

I. I was gonna say I forgot like earlier when we were talking about you know like just menswear fatigue and like the shit that gets tiring in this industry. I have a compliment for you guys. I feel like. I feel like we. It. We're kind of kindred spirits in a way. And I feel like you guys do such a good job of reminding people that this shit is fun and that like there is so much to dig into with clothing and it's cool to like nerd out and make that an interest. But if you're not putting on and going outside, right, like what's. What's the point of any of this?

[Lawrence]

Yeah, totally. You like my Discord outfit?

[James]

Yeah. Live a well rounded life. Please, we beg of you.

[Lawrence]

I swear guys, I'm wearing the most fire right now. I swear Discord I'm wearing.

[James]

It's so the store I got it from, it's in Canada. You don't know about it. It's neighbor.

[Lawrence]

All right, Phil, Nick, thank you guys for coming on. Just for being you and doing what you do and honestly keeping I think New York style, New York fashion alive and well. I truly meant that in the. One of the stars in the miniature constellation keeping things, I don't know, giving us hope and optimism. This has been another episode. Hold on.

[James]

Where can the kids follow you personally and the business and plug your URL and the new office hours. The email, I guess.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, we also shout out. We have a. Very recently we have a new website. Yes, same URL smalltalk Studio Biz. But oh just like redesigned. Shout out to alright studio who designed a beautiful. Yeah beautiful new website for us that is now live.

[Lawrence]

The images are great by the way.

[James]

Yeah, it looks great guys. Honestly, easy to navigate.

[Nick Williams]

That's the homie Brian Anton and yeah, I mean smalltalkstudio biz. I no longer have a personal Instagram.

[Phil Ayers]

Sadly not on Instagram.

[James]

Good call.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah.

[Nick Williams]

I didn't block you guys. I just. I disappeared.

[James]

Sunsetted it.

[Nick Williams]

Smart.

[Lawrence]

How has that affected your mentals?

[Nick Williams]

I am. I'm trying. I'm really trying to hone in on some focus these days. And it's helped for sure. And now Phil runs the Small Talk Instagram. I check in every now and then and it is looking a lot better. I was running it.

[Lawrence]

Oh, Maxime from Zimmies.

[Phil Ayers]

That's our boy.

[Nick Williams]

Shout out Zimmy's.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah. Small Talk Underscore Studio.

[Nick Williams]

Yes.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, and I'm still on Instagram. Mostly just like, drawing in the sand. It's kind of the only content I'm putting out there, but if you're into that kind of thing. It's Calvert underscore Heirs.

[Lawrence]

What's the Calvert.

[Phil Ayers]

That's my middle name. Philip Calvert Ayers.

[Lawrence]

And what's the American.

[Phil Ayers]

What's the.

[Lawrence]

The sand drawings. First of all, those are incredible. And like, is that just. That's just personal.

[Phil Ayers]

That's just personal. Yeah, it's personal shit.

[Lawrence]

You're not monetized that.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, no, it's very therapeutic. I'm out in a way to fly. I've made some flyers for people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shy was the first one who hit me up.

[Lawrence]

We got some shy burgers night.

[James]

Get a voucher.

[Phil Ayers]

I did see vouchers.

[Nick Williams]

Where's the shy voucher?

[James]

Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

The fuck yeah. He was the first person to monetize. I don't know.

[Lawrence]

To monetize your content, exploit your creativity.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, no, but it was. It was a fun thing.

[Lawrence]

Sick.

[James]

Hell yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

Flyer and then. Yeah, that's just some. I'm out in Rockway all the time and sometimes the waves aren't great. Sometimes I don't have time to surf, so I just get some doodles in, find a stick, give a surface.

[Lawrence]

Do you have a surf spot bucket list?

[Phil Ayers]

Kinda. I mean, yeah, there's so many spots I would love to go to.

[Lawrence]

What's been your goated spot that you have been to?

[Phil Ayers]

Goated spot was like 2019. I did a road trip with a bunch of, like, kind of a crew, a couple guys from New York linked up with a couple friends in LA and we did a Baja trip. Like, we drove like seven or eight hours down the Baja coast. Sounds like a blast. Stayed a week. A week down there. And you know, it surfed our brain.

[Lawrence]

Now you're so successful. Now you're so successful you can never do that again.

[James]

Yep. Hope it. Hope it was worth it, dog.

[Lawrence]

You're just trained. You're just chained to the. The. To the doodle pad, bro.

[Phil Ayers]

Yeah, it's true. It's true.

[Nick Williams]

Surf trip sand drawings are going to blow up and then we're gonna. Yeah, we're gonna bring small talk to

[Phil Ayers]

trying to do a book of Sandra if anyone wants to coffee tables.

[James]

Activate that be sick.

[Lawrence]

All right, gentlemen, do the best spring collection in stores now.

[James]

Get that.

[Lawrence]

They should cop. They should cop from your side, right? So you get all the margins.

[James]

Yeah.

[Phil Ayers]

Cop off the site. Also support our local. Local retailers or if you're worldwide, but.

[Lawrence]

All right, gentlemen, thank you for coming to the only podcast chefs.

[James]

Long time coming.

[Lawrence]

Take us out.

[Nick Williams]

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[Phil Ayers]

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[Nick Williams]

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[Phil Ayers]

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[James]

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[Nick Williams]

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[Phil Ayers]

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