Dr. K Analyzes Bobby Lee

Summary

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TigerBelly Podcast Summary

Episode: Dr. K Analyzes Bobby Lee
Date: March 11, 2026
Host: All Things Comedy
Guests: Dr. K (Alok Kanojia, psychiatrist, "Healthy Gamer" founder), Khalyla Kuhn, additional TigerBelly regulars

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Episode Theme & Purpose

This episode takes a deep dive into the emotional and psychological life of comedian Bobby Lee, led by guest Dr. Alok Kanojia (Dr. K), psychiatrist and Healthy Gamer founder. In a no-holds-barred conversation, Dr. K helps Bobby, Khalyla, and the TigerBelly crew explore issues of addiction, emotional regulation, self-perception, and the lasting effects of trauma, all with moments of laughter and raw honesty. The discussion is grounded in both the personal (Bobby's career, relationships, and struggles) and the clinical (Dr. K's expertise in addiction, tech habits, and mental health).

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Overstimulation & Starting Tone ([01:26]-[04:46])

• The crew begins with playful banter, setting a chaotic, high-energy tone ("It's a place for over stimulation. It's like a fever dream." – Bobby, [01:26]).
• They riff on routines and vocal warmups, setting the mood for the episode’s mix of comedy and seriousness.

2. Meditation, Desire, and Bliss ([05:11]-[06:44])

• Dr. K equates the ecstasy of meditation to the relief felt when finally satisfying an urgent biological need, introducing the idea that true bliss comes from alleviating desire rather than fulfilling it.

  "What we're shooting for when we meditate is that sensation...the alleviation of desire." – Dr. K, [06:13]

3. Post-Special Depression & Self-Expectation ([06:53]-[15:02])

• Bobby opens up about his post-comedy-special depression, describing lifelong "overcast" feelings and the anticlimax after a major achievement.
• Dr. K connects Bobby’s experience to the broader human tendency to expect internal change from external achievements, noting:

  "When we spend 20 years of our life building up to something, we think it will change something fundamental within us, but it doesn't." – Dr. K, [11:20]

• The group discusses the disconnect between public support and private feelings of emptiness.

4. Using Humor as Defense, Avoidance, & Relational Dynamics ([13:08]-[16:33])

• The crew and Dr. K analyze their interpersonal behaviors—using jokes to deflect from emotional discomfort, difficulty with authenticity and vulnerability.
• Bobby reflects:

  "I don't think anything I do is real. I think it's all deflection. I think it's all, like, not listening..." – Bobby Lee, [14:43]

5. Bobby’s History with Self-Critique & Imposter Feelings ([22:24]-[29:42])

• Discussion centers on Bobby's inability to watch himself perform, rooted in harsh self-judgement and comparison to others.
• Dr. K explains why most high performers struggle to see themselves accurately:

  "We have an idea of who we are in our heads. It's very different from who we are in the world." – Dr. K, [26:04]

6. The Nature of Performing & Rising to Pressure ([36:11]-[38:09])

• Bobby describes his ability to "rise to the occasion" under pressure, identifying this—rather than raw talent—as the key success trait for comedians.
• Dr. K supports this, connecting it to ego and the ability to get "in the zone" or the flow state.

7. The Problem of Ego, Expectation, and Authentic Performance ([39:09]-[43:05])

• Dr. K argues that peak performance and peace come from transcending ego and becoming "one with the action."

  "Become completely egoless. Become a vessel. And when you do that, that's what really knocks it out of the park." – Dr. K, [39:46]

8. Outside Lanes: When Lower Expectations Enable Success ([43:12]-[46:05])

• Khalyla shares her competitive swimming experiences, noting personal bests happened when least expected (“outside smoker”–the underdog lane); parallels drawn to performance and pressure.

9. Changing Values Over Time & Letting Go ([46:05]-[47:05])

• Bobby recognizes that, as he’s matured, he cares less about others’ opinions and recovers more quickly from setbacks.

10. Tech and Gaming Addiction: Relationship Impact ([48:22]-[55:01])

• In a vulnerable exchange, Bobby and Khalyla dissect how Bobby’s excessive gaming (16 hours/day) impacted their relationship, with Khalyla admitting codependency and ineffective late-stage confrontations.
• Dr. K highlights that behavioral change cannot happen for another person; real communication is key.

11. Emotional Fallout & Growth from Past Addiction ([59:17]-[76:05])

• Bobby’s emotional journey is explored—he owns how his gaming and avoidance behaviors contributed to their split and shares ongoing struggles with video games as a replacement for drugs/alcohol in emotional numbing.
• Dr. K offers insight into the subtlety of tech addiction:

  "Video games is a subtle addiction in many ways...the reasons why I'm doing it is what's glaring—just don't want to feel." – Bobby, [75:17]

• There's discussion about how emotional pain and regret linger, and how both have grown yet still carry unresolved feelings.

12. Pornography and Emotional Regulation ([88:33]-[104:32])

• Dr. K explains the impact of pornography on emotional regulation, especially when encountered by developing brains; pre-pubescent exposure and emotional avoidance are key risk drivers.
• The conversation veers into generational changes—how easy access changes young people's expectations and behaviors, with a shocking statistic:

  "51% of college-age women will experience non-consensual choking." – Dr. K, [100:07]

• Painful stories of trauma and addiction surface, as Bobby recounts childhood molestation and early substance abuse, showing the connection between early trauma, emotional regulation problems, and later dependencies.
• Dr. K ties this into the broader need for alternative emotional management strategies.

13. Ego Death, Psychedelics, and Mental Health ([95:47]-[102:08])

• Brief but deep digressions into meditation, psychedelic experiences and their impact on brain plasticity, with warnings about both their potential and dangers.

14. Patterns of Abuse & Reassurance in Relationships ([108:44]-[109:40])

• Dr. K and Bobby discuss how cycles of harm and subsequent reassurance or “gift-giving” often manifest in abusive or dysfunctional dynamics.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "When we spend 20 years of our life building up to something, we think it will change something fundamental within us, but it doesn't." – Dr. K, [11:20]
• "I don't think anything I do is real. I think it's all deflection." – Bobby Lee, [14:43]
• "You can't be sober for somebody else. Like, you can try. I know you just can't do it." – Dr. K, [56:29]
• "Video games... have replaced my drugs and alcohol addiction because... I just don't want to feel." – Bobby Lee, [75:21]
• "Reassuring people doesn't fucking work. Telling them it is going to be okay...it just doesn't." – Dr. K, [82:40]
• "The scaredness never goes away. I'm still scared." – Bobby Lee, [86:20]
• "We have an idea of who we are in our heads. It's very different from who we are in the world." – Dr. K, [26:04]
• "You will never get that again. Really feel this, it's everything. This is as good as it's going to get." – Bobby Lee (to a younger comic), [79:28]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Meditation & Desire Metaphor: [05:09]-[06:13]
• Post-Special Depression: [06:53]-[12:02]
• Self-critique & Viewing Own Work: [22:23]-[29:42]
• Performing Under Pressure / Flow State: [36:11]-[43:05]
• Outside Lanes in Sports & Pressure: [43:12]-[46:05]
• Gaming Addiction & Relationship Fallout: [48:22]-[55:01]
• Emotional Numbing & Avoidance: [75:17]-[76:05]
• Pornography Effects, Risk Factors: [88:33]-[104:32]
• Generational Sex Trends/Choking: [100:07]-[107:14]
• Abuse & Gift-Giving Patterns: [108:44]-[109:40]

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Style & Memorable Moments

The classic TigerBelly humor threads throughout, but Dr. K's direct, clinical-yet-compassionate approach draws out unusually vulnerable admissions from everyone, especially Bobby. The crew address taboo subjects openly, question each other's motives, and allow laughter to both mask and reveal emotional truths. Exchanges are playful but cut with real analysis:

• Running gag: Use of basic joke tropes ("call someone gay," fart jokes), which Dr. K dissects as defense mechanisms ([33:14], [60:11]).
• Bobby’s self-awareness: "I don't think anything I do is real. I think it's all deflection," [14:43].
• Reflections on maturity: Bobby and Khalyla examine how they’ve changed and what lingers from their relationship.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is an unusually deep look at the inner workings of a comedic mind, relationships impacted by avoidance and addiction, and the clinical realities of changing oneself. From the pressure of performance to the numbing pull of technology or porn, Dr. K provides insight into how real change begins with self-understanding, not external achievement or reassurance.

Check out Dr. K's book, "How to Raise a Healthy Gamer," and his YouTube content for further insights into gaming, tech, and emotional health.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

It's a place for over stimulation.

[C]

It's like a fever dream.

[B]

It's a fever dream.

[A]

It's like.

[B]

Okay, yeah, yeah. It's a new song I'm working on. He's a musician as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Great.

[B]

It's a place for overstimulation.

[D]

It's a fever dream.

[B]

I got the lyrics down. Give me another one.

[C]

Oh, oh. Chaos central.

[B]

Chaos central.

[C]

Degenerates generates.

[E]

Oh yeah.

[B]

What are you doing? Your headphone teacher.

[E]

Yeah. Headphone teacher.

[B]

Headphone teacher.

[E]

That's a rock.

[B]

Teaching how to use the headphones. Yeah, just trying to get my vocal stuff ready, you know, for the pod.

[C]

It's sounding good.

[B]

Yeah. Because I just woke up so I have not even really here.

[D]

Yeah, I was gonna ask how. How long ago wake up?

[A]

Let's be honest here.

[B]

Seven minutes ago. Maybe eight minutes. Eight. Eight to ten minutes ago.

[E]

What time did you go to bed?

[B]

Oh my God. I don't even know. It was. It was a rough one. 6:30.

[E]

Why?

[B]

Why 6:30 in the morning Playing Starfield again. Grinding it out.

[A]

Music to Dr. K's ears. 6am gaming.

[B]

Dr. Alok K. Yep. Dr. Let's. Let's all meditate. Do you want to meditate?

[C]

Can we actually meditate? I do. I really want to.

[B]

You think I'm a liar. Wait, are you accusing me of being a liar? I just think let's meditate.

[C]

Yeah, but you were fake shit. Like you were just.

[B]

You're a fake shit.

[C]

You're a fake shit.

[B]

We have a guest here.

[D]

What do you.

[B]

What are you getting combat it for?

[C]

I wanted to Meditate.

[E]

I said they used to date.

[A]

They used to date Dr. K. For 10 years.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Let's get it. Let's. First of all, let's start here. Okay. He's from Houston, Texas, Right. Wow. He's a psychiatrist.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. Very handsome. Yeah. Not a sexual way. I didn't say that in a sexual way. No, I'm saying, you know, I've never. I've never hooked up with an Indian person, but, you know.

[E]

Really?

[B]

No, I've never have.

[C]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[E]

That's surprising.

[B]

I want to.

[C]

Weird.

[B]

But I'm not a gay either.

[D]

What's surprising about that? I'm just trying to figure out what exactly what kind of energy I should be bringing today, you know, so it's. I can see that you're ramping yourself up.

[B]

No, no, no. Here, let's. But I can come down to your level. Oh.

[D]

I can come up to yours.

[C]

Oh.

[D]

Or, Bobby, you can come up to mine. Why do you. Why do you assume mine is lower? You got slam conquered. Just because we're quiet doesn't mean that we're not energetic. Oh, hey, like, snaps so we can love.

[B]

I don't even know how to do it.

[C]

You don't have opposable thumb.

[B]

Oh, my God. Sorry. Sorry.

[C]

What a revelation.

[E]

He doesn't have opposable thumb.

[D]

You can't snap your fingers.

[B]

Yeah, I can't do any of that anyway. Yeah. So you're sorry.

[D]

It's all good.

[B]

Did you meet Cat?

[D]

I met Cat earlier and. I'm sorry, can I get your name?

[C]

It's Kalila.

[D]

Kalila.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah. It's a little bit of a tongue twister, but okay.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Cool.

[D]

I'm all.

[B]

So. So I will go up to your level.

[D]

Sure.

[B]

Okay. Because you were meditating earlier in the green room. I heard.

[D]

I was.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[E]

The bathroom.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

That's. Every time in the bathroom is meditation.

[B]

Yeah. What are you being rude for?

[E]

No, I'm not being rude.

[D]

Oh, no. So seriously, if you guys want to know, like, the ecstasy of meditation, I'd love to. All you have to do is imagine, you know, when you really need to go pee, and then you, like, finally, like, get into the bathroom. So I think the best example of this is if you're on a road trip and you, like, pull over to use the bathroom, and then you go into the bathroom, and you really need to go, and it's full, and then you have to wait and then that, like, 30 seconds where you're waiting for someone to make room. Is it one or two I'm talking about one. I think it's easier to do with

[B]

one, but I do it with two.

[D]

But, but, yeah, two is two.

[B]

You do it with either one.

[D]

We can talk about two in a second.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Ok. Because I feel like that's a whole nother type of restraint that, like, I have to tap into. Like dig, really dig deep for that one.

[D]

And then, then, then when you go, it feels absolutely blissful.

[C]

Eye rolling. Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. Right. So that's. That's what we're shooting for when we meditate. Is that sensation.

[B]

Whoa. The relief.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. So it's relief and it's bliss. What it actually is is the alleviation of desire. See, we think that, like, fulfilling our desires makes us happy, but when we really fulfill them, we make them go away. Does that make sense?

[C]

Yes.

[D]

Right?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So. So this whole time we're, like, trying to chase our desires but actually getting rid of them. It's the stillness afterward.

[E]

Right, but that's what I wanted.

[C]

Well, we're gonna. We're getting too ahead of ourselves.

[B]

But we're not.

[C]

It goes right along. It's. When I think about how you felt after you finally filmed your special and then you went into a deep depression. Is it.

[D]

Sorry, let's talk about that. I mean, that doesn't sound like depression is the opposite of what we're going for, but we should absolutely talk about it.

[A]

We're going for a blissfulness.

[D]

When I think about it,

[C]

There had been this, like, bowl of.

[B]

In your face, opposable thumbs up.

[C]

Why is it do. Like you said, like, why. Why do we feel so empty after the goal has been achieved a lot of times?

[D]

Well, I think we gotta ask you. So tell me about the special.

[B]

What? Yeah. No. So what happened was for about a year and a half, I was preparing for this thing, this event.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And I had a lot of fear behind it. And because it's like, I had never done a special before.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

It was a lot of pressure to involve, like, you know, a lot of people are online and we're like, you're never gonna do one. Or, you know, I mean, you know, I mean, it's been on and on this thing, and I finally sign a deal with the company and I'm like, nice. So I spent a year and a half working, working, working, working. And I worked harder on it than. I've never. I've worked on anything else. And then I was. Then the week of real dread, you know, But I was prepared. And then I got sick that week.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah, I got sick that week. There was a lot going on, and, you know, she was. She was there. Everyone was there. Everyone here was there. And I. And then it came off pretty good, you know? I mean, I. I did it, and. And then the following week, it was so depressing. I just. I had this kind of. Not an emptiness, but it was just like a. I had to get on Lexapro because of it.

[D]

What were you feeling?

[B]

This. You know, I've always had a low humming of depression.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Like a buzz, you know? I mean, nothing that's like, you know, too despairing, you know, it wasn't like, crippling. It was just always there of.

[D]

Just. Just overcast.

[B]

Overcast of sadness. Yeah. And I would have glimpses of joy, you know, but it's always been there. Ever since I was a kid. It sort of deepened that level of depression. It was almost as though it went, like, a couple of levels below that. And then I. I just couldn't get out of it. And so my psychiatrist was like, let's try Lexapro. Because it was the first time I ever really even mentioned this low level of depression. But it was just like an awareness of it that was, like, glaring.

[D]

After the special, what were you expecting yourself to feel?

[B]

Victory.

[D]

After the special?

[B]

Yeah. And just like. Like, I did it, and I did feel that. I mean, you know, that. That weekend. Yeah, it was great. I was, you know, I was talking to everybody out backstage. There was a lot. There was a lot, like, a lot of magic happening.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

All my reps were there, you know? I mean, the theaters were packed. You know What I mean?

[A]

20 years in the making, so.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it was just a lot happening, you know, it was like all the executives were, like, coming up to me, like, we got it. That's amazing. You know what I mean? It was just like everything that I thought was going to go wrong didn't happen. What are you. Is that your listening face?

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Why do I smirk, though?

[E]

I'm not smirking. I'm just happy to hear it because it was really good and I've had. Yeah.

[D]

What bothers you about her smiling?

[E]

Yeah, let's get into that.

[D]

Is that a joke? I mean, look, like, we can joke if you guys want.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[D]

I was. I was born on Twitch, so, like.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, no, I'm not joking. Yeah, it annoyed me.

[D]

Yeah. What? What?

[B]

I don't know what it is. Okay, okay, let me address. Write that down. Write that down.

[C]

Can you show me what it looked like? Kat,

[A]

she was, like, feeling Jolly, listening to the story.

[D]

I think she was engaged. Yeah, she was.

[A]

Normal stuff.

[D]

No, no, I mean, but it's like she's engaged, right? But her. If she's smiling even a little bit, she's engaged. But what she's projecting to Bobby is amusement. And like Bobby is talking about, this is something that's 20 years in the making. This is a guy who's had overcast skies his whole fucking life. And then you have your monumental achievement. And right before he goes into it, everything is about to go wrong. He's never done it before. It's a real special. Everyone's showing up. He's saying everyone in the room was there. That sounds supportive. It's fucking terrifying because when he fucks up because he's sick, right? He's never done it before. He's practiced. Everyone tells him he's going to be great, but he doesn't know that. He's never told anyone about the overcast sky. So what if. What if he fucks up, right? This is his shot. And then it's magical and everyone is. Is celebrating and you feel those celebrations too. Sorry to get into it. But then the next day, the one thing that doesn't change is the overcast skies. Right? And so when we have. When we spend 20 years of our life building up to something, we think it will change something fundamental within us, but it doesn't. And then what do you do?

[B]

Yeah, what do you do?

[D]

Right? Because now you have achieved. Everyone told you. Oh, yeah, like Bobby, the reason that you're unhappy is because you haven't made it quite enough.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And then you make it. And then you wake up the day in the next day and the overcast, the clouds are still there. And then you're fucked.

[B]

What's.

[D]

So.

[B]

See, that's what I'm saying. At the same point. At the same point when I was telling my story, that's when you were smirking. You smoked the same exact point. What the fuck is your problem?

[E]

Do you think that is a rational response?

[D]

I think if we're. If we're. I think that it is very easy for someone to burst out laughing. If someone bursts out laughing. When we talk about the depth of how someone is, I think it's an A. Not inappropriate reaction to get. It's not upset with that. Not to make you the bad guy,

[B]

because it's not an appropriate.

[D]

It's not. And it's unhealthy. I know you guys, y' all all do this thing where like, he's, like, mad at you. Right, but this is a fucking comedy podcast. So then everybody laughs about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And this is the one time during the comedy podcast where if you laugh, he gets mad, which is weird. Right?

[E]

Times he hits me. Is that normal?

[B]

I don't hit you. That's insane.

[D]

So. So now you're clapping back. You see that?

[B]

You're clapping back. Let's talk about her.

[D]

No, no, no.

[B]

Look at what she's doing in lobster hands.

[D]

So it's important, right? Because if he's bearing his soul and you laugh, which I think, like, we all use humor as a defense mechanism. And then now I make you. Now the lens is on you, and so you're like, okay, let's divert the lens off of me. Oh, no. He hits me. Especially in the climate of the Epstein files.

[E]

Yes.

[D]

And so he is a man. And so. Oh, my God.

[B]

Now what are you accusing me of? Yeah. Anyway, let's. All right, so let's go back to the special. All right. Okay, I apologize.

[E]

I'm sorry, too.

[B]

That's what I wanted.

[D]

What was that just now?

[E]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah. What is that?

[D]

I don't know. I mean, I don't either, because I can't tell. I feel like y' all are deeply uncomfortable, but also authentic. Like, I think that was like. Like, I know we're pretending to joke, but I think if people are watching this, like, there is. There's actually something really important about that exchange.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Actually, now you can see it in her face.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[D]

That doesn't bother you now, right?

[B]

No. Right.

[D]

There's something really genuine.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

It's so funny. I think what you're like, I guess

[D]

this is what we're doing. I'm here to talk about my book.

[B]

We're gonna talk about your book.

[D]

Why?

[B]

No, but you just put a spotlight on a behavior. Yeah. Right. And the thing is, is that I don't think as. I don't think we are. I don't think anything I do is real. I think it's all deflection. I think it's all, like, you know, I mean, not listening. I think it's a lot. You know? And this. It's very glaring.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm like that with, like. Like, I was with Eric Andre the other night, and he hadn't seen him in years. Right. And he kept pulling my shirt up repeatedly. You know what I mean? Right. And then it was really awkward, you know? I mean, he was like, kind of. And it was like. And I realized that that was my relationship with every comedian. Just there's no, how are you. This and that.

[C]

It's just play.

[B]

It's all play. It's all like, you know, I mean, let's not think about what's really going on or being in the moment or feeling or anything like that, you know?

[D]

I mean.

[B]

Or sharing things. Sure. And it's like, I don't have. In aa. I do have deeper relationships, I think, but with, you know, with everyone here, I think it's. I don't think it's real. I mean, I've been trying with Gilbert.

[C]

What in the.

[B]

I've been trying with Gilbert.

[C]

I mean.

[B]

What do you mean? No, with you.

[C]

What the hell?

[B]

What the fucking hell? With disposable thumbs.

[C]

We were Dr. K for some context. We were together for a decade.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And now we're.

[D]

I think. You know what would be fun?

[E]

Please tell us.

[D]

If you guys don't give me context.

[B]

Ooh.

[C]

Okay.

[E]

So what do you think our relationship is, Bobby and I.

[D]

Give me time, though.

[E]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. You gotta give him time, dude.

[D]

Just keep it. Keep. We'll see. We'll see if I can figure it out.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

So we're together for a decade, but aren't anymore.

[C]

Aren't anymore.

[D]

No, no. And now co host a podcast we

[C]

co hosted while we were together as well.

[D]

Okay. Yeah, we'll get into that later.

[A]

Did you see his brain went?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's business.

[C]

Ew.

[E]

That's so not how I see it.

[D]

Yeah, right.

[B]

It's business and pleasure. No, it's business. I'll tell you what it is.

[A]

No one's asking you what it is.

[B]

Family. It's business and family.

[D]

Tough not to crack right here.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

That's what.

[B]

Let's go back to the. Yeah.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

All right.

[D]

Special somewhere.

[A]

What?

[C]

Stick to something.

[A]

Can I get a Queen of Clock? We do one more.

[C]

Yeah, let's do a proper intro first, can we?

[B]

I. We did it.

[A]

No.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

We did not.

[D]

I. I think we can do an intro if you want to, but I. I think I have introduced myself. If people are listening to this, that's

[B]

exactly how I felt about it.

[D]

Right. So.

[B]

I mean, God, I love you, man. You're a good guy. What?

[D]

Nothing, dude.

[E]

Nothing.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

I'm starting to love you, too. I'm getting there.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Not quite there yet. I think I'm gonna get there, though.

[E]

You'll get there.

[B]

I think he'll get there. Yeah. Everyone gets there. What? That's weird.

[C]

Yeah, that was the wink.

[E]

A wink was weird.

[D]

It's it's bro code.

[B]

It's broke.

[D]

It wasn't weird.

[B]

Yeah, it's a code that you don't fully understand.

[D]

Yeah, I winked at him, too. You didn't see that, but I.

[B]

Right, Alex? Yeah, it's a language.

[D]

You guys see the wink I saw?

[B]

Yeah, you don't fully understand it, but you all got it, right.

[A]

Guys, his is also way more subtle.

[B]

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[B]

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[C]

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[B]

Oh, my God. Who? Who? Who? Okay, so. And then I was in the deep depression. Deep depression. And I was talking to my psychiatrist, Dr. Mike, and.

[D]

Dr. Mike.

[B]

What? Anyway, and. And he. We talked about it and so I. So then I got on Lexapro and. Sorry.

[D]

Burping is fine.

[B]

I'm so sorry. I'm so, so.

[D]

That was deep. Better out than in. Her.

[A]

It was just like the longest. You were staring directly in his eyes.

[B]

I'm so sorry.

[A]

You went. I'm interrupting this.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[D]

No, no, it's. It's better out than in.

[B]

It's out. Better out. That's a good. That's a good. My grandfather used to say that. Yeah, he never said.

[D]

We'll talk about that when we do. Number two.

[B]

Oh, yeah. You still remember. You remember all the little points. This is great. This is gonna be a three Hour podcast. All right.

[C]

The pad, please.

[E]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

Oh, yeah, get the pad. Get the pad going. So anyway, I. I had never seen. So a little backstory about me is, is that with all the. Every TV show or movie as an actor that I've never really seen it. And especially doing standup, I've never seen anything. I just can't watch myself. So then I got on Alexa Pro and, you know, the editing. My. My. My special. I have another podcast called Bad Friends on the second floor of Bad Friends.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[B]

So I just can get. Go up and watch, you know, I mean, so I watched the whole thing a couple of times through, and I don't know if it's the Lexapro or my growth as a human being. I think it's the Lexapro, but I can sit there and watch it and not really judge it. And I really. The first run through, I was like, I'm pretty good. I'm pretty good. You know, it's like I was astounded by some of my. The timing of, like, being more relaxed. Cause when I was a young kid, I used to be. You know what I mean? And I couldn't stand silence. But here I was, like, the transitions were smooth, you know, it's pretty. Well, anyway, I was pretty proud of it, you know, so. But I don't know if that's Alexa Pro or whatever, you know, I mean,

[D]

when did you watch. How many. How many days or weeks after you watched it? How many. How long after it aired did you watch it?

[B]

Probably three weeks.

[D]

So you had been on Lexapro for three weeks at that point?

[B]

It doesn't air until November. But we're. They're editing it. Yeah. Yeah.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So. But okay, so I got on Lexapro, and then two or three weeks later, I saw the special I recently saw, like, maybe three or four days ago.

[D]

And. And how would you have expected. What would you have expected from your reaction that wasn't there? Because you're almost sound. You make it sound like you were surprised by your lack of rumination, judgment. Like you could. You could watch it and appreciate the work that you do.

[B]

What was the question again?

[D]

So when you watched it.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

You were. It seems like you were surprised that you were not more judgmental.

[B]

Mm. And then what.

[D]

So what.

[B]

What would.

[D]

If you hadn't been on Lexapro?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Because it's not clear that it was Lexapro.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

But if you hide, I think I

[B]

assume that I would have been, like, really more judgy about it.

[C]

In the past, he's like, just cringes and runs away when he's had to watch any of the stuff he's talking about.

[B]

A reservation dog is what I did.

[C]

Yeah. So we went to a screening of one of the. One of the shows that he was on a regular on, and we went through the whole party, the whole thing.

[B]

It's okay. Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

He said hi to everyone once. It was time. Once the actual episode went on, he, like, froze. Like, you could visibly see him, like, just fully clench. And then I got and got up and then started walking away, like, not even saying bye to anyone or even, like, signaling to me, like, hey, we're out of here. He was just almost like a fight or flight, like, I got to get the out of here.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Do you remember that?

[B]

Oh, yeah, I do remember that. I just happened for goat. I mean, that goat movie, that animated movie.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I went to the premiere. As soon as I heard my voice, I left.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So I did up there. You know what I mean? I just heard. I heard Andrew Santino. He's so good in the movie. His voice.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you hear mine. I'm like. Like, I had this, like, reaction of, like, I got to get out of here.

[C]

But is that a common thing, Dr. K, to not feel comfortable watching ourselves even hearing our own voice?

[D]

Dude, I cannot watch myself.

[C]

Okay, cool.

[D]

That makes me feel.

[B]

What is that?

[D]

I mean, so I think it's a couple of different things. So one is. I guess this is. It's interesting. No one's ever asked me that. I just had this thought. We have an idea of who we are in our heads. It's very different from who we are in the world.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[D]

Right. So I think first and foremost, like, when I listen to my voice, I can't stand my voice. I consider my voice to be excessively nasally. And so I think sometimes it's just hard to see our performance because we have so many protective illusions about who we are. And then when we see ourselves, I think there's also probably, like, a cognitive bias. So on the one hand, we have, like, a protective cognitive bias. On the other hand, I'm. I'm guessing that most human beings, if they look at their work, they will probably highlight the worst parts. Right. So when I, like, cook for my kids, they'll eat it. I mean, they'll love it. They'll gobble it down. But then I will hyperfocus on the things that I got wrong. So I think some people, especially, who are very craft oriented because in order to be Michelin star, chef, successful comedians, podcast hosts, Right. We have to be critical of our own work. So I think there's a lot of that. I think with Bobby, there's another layer, though. So I think there's like, regular humans. No offense, Bobby.

[B]

None taken. None taken.

[D]

And then there's the extraordinary. But, I mean, I think that it's clear to me already that you carry around a lot on the inside, like your internal environment.

[B]

Oh, baby, what's up?

[D]

You know, whether it's the substance use, whether it's being a comedian, you know, like, there's something about. I don't know exactly what's going on. I'm curious. Just a couple questions pop into my mind. When you watch yourself, do you. Is the thing that is the most disturbing that that isn't you?

[B]

Yeah. The first thing comes up is, oh, that's what I kind of look like.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

It's a little shocking.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

You know, I always thought that, like, I always had this thought where it's like, let's say there was no such thing as mirrors or even a pond where I could see my reflection. And we were just kind of. For 30 years, I was. Existed. And then one day, somebody invented a mirror. If I saw myself, I would probably take a shotgun and just shoot my brain, you know, I mean, I think that because in my mind, I'd be like, oh, I'm Brad Pitt. I look good. And if I saw the mirror, I don't think I would ingest.

[D]

Well, but it's not. But, you know, there are mirrors, right? So you're seeing something on the screen that is not just your physical appearance. When you see yourself on a screen, what bothers you so much about what you see? What makes it intolerable? Cause it's intolerable. Like, he gets up and he just walks out.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah. I think more with acting is my. I've always been paranoid as an actor, you know, because people make fun of me, like, you're not that good of an actor. So then it's like, you know, I. When I watch myself, I just. With real. Because I love film and television, too. I just grew up with it. So I just. I kind of, like, just compare myself with, you know, and I've done scenes with, you know, big actors, you know, before Ben Kingsley, Jamie Lee Curtis, these kinds of, you know, people. You know what I mean? I think that's what happens as an actor, as a comic. I think what happens is I'm friends with the best comics on planet Earth, and I'VE just watched them. So then I, when I watch myself, I just, in my mind, I'm like, I'm not as good. You know what I mean?

[E]

Which is crazy, though, because, like, the way we see you is insanely talented. Just, like, being at his special, like, it was, yeah, insane. And I know that's cool. Like, I don't want it, but it was just crazy that you don't have that perception of that.

[B]

I'll tell you. I'll give you an example. When I was at my special, right before they were gonna bring me up, just the whole audience, there was a couple of shows where they were chanting my name and, and they were just standing already, you know what I mean? And it's a little bit of a shock of, like, you know, I mean, like, oh, you know, I felt that.

[D]

What did you feel like?

[B]

Oh, they. People like me. Because you don't get that at that, like, at, at clubs or.

[D]

Did that feel good?

[B]

Yeah, it felt, it felt like it gave me the confidence to tear it up.

[D]

Nice.

[B]

I, I felt it. I was like, okay, I'm gonna rip this. You know, it was like, there's no way to fail. That's what I felt. Now, if they were, like, tight and quiet, you know, I mean, because I've been, I've, you know, as comics, we performed in front of tight audiences, you know, I mean, I was expecting that. I, I was expecting the worst. That's why I worked so hard. That's what we did. We did shows that were almost impossible to do well on the road before, like, you know, I mean, like, tough markets or and whatnot. Because I just knew that I wanted to prepare myself for any situation. And then when it actually happened, I was like, I think I prepared too much. It was like, oh, it's just a show, you know? Anyway, what's up?

[D]

I think that's huge. So, I mean, this is gonna get a bit. I'm trying to figure out how to say this.

[E]

You're gay. No, I'm just kidding. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I didn't. Okay.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no. Let's. Can we analyze that? Did you just hear that?

[D]

Yeah, I, I did hear.

[B]

Yeah. How'd you feel when you heard that?

[E]

You can't use him against.

[B]

I'm not using. I'm just. It's an interesting thing.

[D]

I, I, I think she's carrying a.

[E]

Oh, yeah, let's go with this.

[D]

So, like, like, here, like, this is a podcast that is extra loud. And then I'm thinking, what does that mean there's. There's just ordinary volume?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

And then there's.

[A]

There's volume that's above the ordinary volume. He's purposely been breaking his headphones not to listen.

[D]

So. And. And so I. I think it's, you know, so I'm. I'm trying to think through something. My, My challenge is that I think if I explain it now, it won't make sense yet. So I'm trying to think about.

[B]

I can. I can understand things.

[D]

No, no, I know you can understand things. It's just. I feel like this is one of those things where it's like, if we talk a little bit more, I think maybe it'll become clear.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

And then I think. What? Cat. Cat has the challenge of filling the space. Right. So. So you're. You're tuned in. Like, we're quiet.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

But, like, if people are listening at home. So I think she's actually, she's. She's serving a very important role, which oftentimes women do. She's.

[C]

She's.

[D]

No, I'm serious. This is what you, a woman, get socialized to do. Right.

[B]

So although you're socialized to do it.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Soviet style, do you feel the responsibility?

[E]

Oh, yeah, Right.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. Right. So. So it's like. It's like she has to step in and make sure that, like, things are okay for everybody. Whereas.

[B]

Call it a day.

[D]

Yeah, actually, yes. I mean, if you think about it. If you think about it, it's such a low effort joke.

[B]

Right?

[D]

No offense when in doubt.

[B]

Lowest, lowest effort of a joke. It's the bottom of the barrel.

[D]

Can we say that it's like break glass in case of emergency.

[B]

Exactly.

[D]

Call somebody gay. Gay. Right. Like, that's what happens.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

So.

[B]

So like a primal.

[D]

This actually. This actually signals to me that she's trying really hard.

[B]

That's not. Trying hard.

[D]

No, I mean, dude, she's good. Right? So if. If she's trying hard.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

And. And she produces such a shitty joke that like, like, that's like you're at the bottom of the barrel. Desperation.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Desperation.

[D]

It's not. It's not.

[E]

I think we're done.

[D]

I think we're done.

[B]

Okay. We're open mic. Open. Mikey. I mean. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, I get it.

[E]

Coming back to

[D]

next. Okay.

[B]

Kat.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, I have a lot of questions. I came prepared and loaded. No, but let's do both.

[D]

Yeah. So. So. So I. I guess this is just what I'm gonna say at this point. So, like, I know this is gonna sound kind of weird, but this comes down to, like, who you are and, like, what. What people are. Okay, so the first thing that I want to point out is you were so worried. So, like, anxiety and rumination and thoughts in your head of living up to a standard. So in our own head, we have an ego. An ego is like an identity of what we think we are. The crazy thing is what we are is not what we think we are. I know it sounds like really simple, duh, but, like, when you. The moment that you heard people so high expectations makes you over prepare. High expectations makes you paranoid. High expectations makes you anxious. When people are laughing and clapping and chanting your name or whatever they're standing, right? You would expect in that moment that the expectations are actually at their highest because you're about to go on stage and everyone is already excited. So you would think that that would trigger a crisis in your ego, right? Because this is like, now the expectations are like, here. It's not like, expectations over six months of preparation, 18 months of preparation, like, oh, fuck, these people are expecting me to show up and laugh, right? So then something really cool happens where if you step away from ego and into yourself. And that's what you did, right? You were like, this is just a show or something like that. You said something that was really simple, that actually wasn't about you. It wasn't about whether you can do it or not do it, deliver or not deliver. It's like, I come on stage, okay? I come on stage, period. I was trying to think about whether that would sound bad or I. Anyway, so now I'm stuck. So when you come on stage, you show up on stage. Dude, the way his face is like, sorry, I'm processing. So when you.

[B]

When you go up on stage, when you go up.

[E]

Yeah, yeah, go up, get hard on stage.

[D]

Yeah, when you go up on stage, right? So there is the actual performance of the comedy. There is the. Actually, I would say the embodiment of the comedy, right? So if people are expecting you to embody the comedy and you embody the comedy, then it's fine.

[B]

Yeah, but I think what you're really. Can I just say a couple of things? All right. Number one, it's that as a comic, I know how to read a room, right? So it's like when they were cheering and they were like, the energy, I just. I just know what that is, right? And I read the room. It had nothing to do with, like, you know what I mean? Rising to an Occasion, Exactly. Yeah.

[D]

Right. So. So you were. And you want to say a couple things.

[B]

Another thing. God, you're so good. The second thing is, is that I don't know what it is. And I think that I always tell younger comics, I go, it's not the funniest person that makes it in the business. It's not. It's. I know I knew so many people at the open mic stage growing up where I was just like, oh, this person is a star. They're just the best jokes. They have the looks, they have everything. But, you know, the difference between them and me is, is that the guy that. That makes it is the person that can perform under immense amounts of pressure. There are just some people that are really good, and then, you know, when the Tonight show comes out to go see them, they just can't do it. They're not themselves, you know, I mean, they. They crumble under the weight of it, you know, and the one thing that I've. I'm pretty. 90% of the time, I've always hit the ball in. In the right moments. I just was. I rise to the occasion. Like, I did the Tonight show when I was a kid, and I just. I knew that I had to do well, and I just rose to the occasion. I did it. You know what I mean? So it's like, I don't know if I'm not the most talented. I just can just do it, you know? I mean, in terrible situations. You know what I mean?

[D]

Yeah. So I think that's actually what's so scary. Right. Because you can't control who shows up. So I would almost say, like, you know, when you do the work of doing the comedy is like. So you kind of tap into that and like, you read the room, and then you're not thinking about living up to expectations. You're reading the room, and you're with the room. You're in the present, and you are doing the work of comedy. That's what it means to show up. And when you actually show up, all of the thoughts and expectations that you have actually empty from your mind. You're not thinking about it. You're not thinking about doing a good job. You're just doing the work of the comedy. And I'm with you. That when you say, you know, they crumble on stage, what is it that crumbles? What crumbles is the ego, the identity. They get too trapped in their head, then they start to choke. Once they start to choke, the choking gets worse. Once you're like, oh, my God, I'm choking, Right? And so I think there's a really important, Like, I work with a lot of people who are, for lack of a better term, high performers. And what we try to teach, even on YouTube and on the Internet, is, like, how to tap into that best version of yourself and leave the ego behind. So instead of living up to an expectation, do the action, like, become. I know this is going to sound cheesy, but, like, become one with the action. Become completely egoless. Become a vessel. And when you do that, that's what really knocks it out of the park. And it doesn't matter. I mean, you can talk about Olympic athletes who will enter the zone. You'll talk about the flow state. You can talk about people who are creative, comedians, performers, stuff like that. And I'll even work with people who are day traders and people in finance, and it's the same. There are some times where you're paranoid about whether a trade you're making, should I buy crypto? Should I sell crypto? But then there are times where, like, you almost become omniscient, and you just, like, know, like, like something in your subconscious. Everything. Omniscient.

[B]

I've never heard that word before.

[E]

It's ever present.

[D]

That's omnipresent. Omniscient. Not. Not to. Not to. Manscanning.

[B]

Cat, what are you doing?

[D]

Yeah, okay. Anyway, I just realized, I, I. Man, it's okay.

[B]

No, you need to.

[D]

With her. That was.

[B]

Well, you directing it to me. You're the one. You know what I mean?

[D]

Yeah. Anyway, so. So I think that's. And I think the really scary thing about that is that you never know if you, you can't be sure that you're gonna do that. Right? Like, like the 18 months when you're anxious, you can't predict that when you're about to go on stage and everyone is. Is ready for you, and. And you're gonna. You just show up in the right way, like, at least. What terrifies me. So I gave probably the best talk I have ever given in my life, and I'm afraid that that was the peak. So I went to a conference and I gave a talk that was just fucking spectacular. Like, I've never done it that good.

[C]

Crushed.

[D]

Crushed. And then. So the first thing that happened is people were like, can you come back next year? Oh, I see. And so, you know, I was talking to my wife, and so she was like, yeah, of course he can come back next year. And then I was trying to convey to her that, like, I'm terrified because I think that, like, everything that I showed up and no one expected anything.

[B]

Right.

[D]

Knocked it out of the park.

[B]

Oh, I see. I see.

[D]

And so now the problem is, like, people have expectations. Yeah. And people sometimes don't realize, like, how terrifying expectations are.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[D]

Right. Because everyone around you is looking at you. They're like, I've seen you do this a thousand times. Like, it's totally fine. Like, you're gonna do fine. Like, it'll be fine.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

But to be the one who has to produce that. Right. Like, that's, it's, it's fine for other people to recognize the pattern of your success and say, you've done this 999 times. Of course you can do it the thousandth time. But when you're the one who has to show up the thousandth time. And you know how close disaster was each one of those 999 times, which no one sees. Right. They just see the finished product. They don't see the blood, sweat, and tears that went into it. And that's scary.

[B]

Yeah. Wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow. But you'll be fine. You're gonna kill it.

[D]

So I think actually the solution that I've been, that I advocate for.

[B]

What's up?

[E]

No, no, no.

[B]

Why'd you laugh so much?

[E]

Because you just can't give him advice. He's giving you advice.

[D]

Of course he can.

[E]

Oh, he can give you. I thought it was okay.

[B]

What is going on with you, dude? Yeah, yeah. I'm wise as well.

[E]

Okay.

[D]

No, I, I, I, I didn't see it as advice, but, I mean, I think everyone. But I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't even advice. You know, he just said it was

[B]

just something to say.

[D]

I, I think, I think he was trying to be reassuring. I would call that reassurance. Like, you're gonna kill it. Like, I don't.

[E]

Kind of like my gay comment.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Right now.

[D]

So he's like, so Bobby's taking, Taking care of me now?

[E]

Yeah, he's taking care of you.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

There's this term. When I was a competitive swimmer, I swam most of my life, and I swam for the Philippine national team and up to D1 in college. And my favorite term we used to use was outside smoker. And when I was a favorite to win the race, I. If I was in lane four, which is where they put the fastest seated swimmer, I never swam my best race, but if for some reason I was in lane one or lane eight and not expected to win, I always, always swam My best times, like, unanimously throughout, like, my 15 years as a swimmer. If you put me on the outside lanes with zero expectation.

[B]

Oh, So I put on the outside lanes. I didn't know that that's what they

[C]

call the outside smokers. Because, again, it was like, when. Because, you know, like, I had a lot of trauma around, like, my parents, like, pushing me to be, like, the best. But if you put me on those outside lanes, you knew. I just knew I would. I was free. I was free to just execute and just.

[D]

Just swim. Right?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. And it felt so good. Those are my favorite. Like, I don't have a lot of positive memories as an athlete, but being on the outside lanes was, like, my favorite memory.

[B]

And.

[D]

And that's when you do the best.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

Right.

[B]

When there was low expectations. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. But. So you never hit the ball when it was high expectations?

[C]

I mean, I did, right. I would win. But in terms of posting my personal best or hitting, like, I remember, like, one of the last meets I did right before I got recruited to swim for Division 1. I was just coming off just a really tough year of not training. My dad was dying. A lot of things were happening in my life, so I was. There was just a lot of pressure to be like, I need this scholarship. I need this. We didn't have any money. This is the only way to get to college was if I swam fast enough. And I remember that race. It was an international race. It was a Q meet in Long Beach. And it just so happened that because it was an international meet, you had a lot of Olympians there, and I just wasn't the fastest seated swimmer. So I swam in lane one, and I shaved four seconds off my personal best, got my senior cut, and got recruited, like, literally the next week to division.

[B]

That must be the happiest.

[C]

It was so freeing to be so, like. Like, from the beginning to the end, I was like, all I have to do is swim. I am literally nobody in this lineup. They're so much better than me that there's no expectation. And it was, like, so. Yeah, it was amazing.

[D]

So what were you saying?

[E]

No, That I could. Well, I was just saying because I'm, like, like, low in comedy. So it's like, when you have big names.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

Like Bobby and Santino and all these guys, and you have to be on those lineups, you do feel like there's a lot. There's, like, not that much expectation. But then you also feel like, oh, I really got to prove myself, but not in the way that you might feel, because you have people in the audience that are there to see you, I think.

[B]

But when it's. It's weird, you know, I don't really care as much, too, which is. I think. I don't know what that is. As you get older, you're just like, I don't really care what they think. Really. You know, I cared so much in the first 20 years of me doing it, but now it's just like, I don't really. If I have a really bad set, it's not as devastating to me, you know, so it's like. It just. It's time. And I think once you get to, like, a certain level, you're just kind of like, okay, you know, I'm not gonna beat myself up over something that's gonna. I'm gonna. You're gonna be doing it for the rest of your life. Think of that. And also, the things that, like, I. I don't remember. I've done thousands and thousands. I don't remember any of them. I don't remember any of the reactions of people come to me, like, hey, you know, I was there. Boca Raton, 92. Not Me, 2002, you know, second show. I'm like, I don't remember that I was in Boca Raton

[A]

the first time you said that.

[B]

Yeah, it was the first time I ever said it.

[C]

You pronounce it.

[B]

Is that how you said.

[C]

I never heard it, but.

[B]

What do you mean?

[C]

Yeah, Florida. Yeah.

[B]

Hey, I did the Italian way, you know, but anyway. Sorry, but you had notes.

[C]

Oh, I have so many questions. I haven't even, like. But I feel as though it would. It would make us hard pivot in a different direction.

[B]

Well, there's other things, but go ahead.

[C]

Okay, so we're gonna hard pivot from your special. Because I have so many questions that might be rooted.

[B]

Let me ask this experience. Dr. K. Are you having a good time?

[D]

What do you think?

[B]

I think you're great. This is so much fun.

[C]

I think that's great.

[E]

I'm having a good time.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm most worried about you. No. Because you're the one who unfortunately gets. You know, you've become the villain. You've villainized you a little bit. I'm serious. Like, like. So I'm gonna try my best to help you feel more comfortable. Oh, yeah. And. And now that I pointed out, now you're even more uncomfortable. Right. Because you were. But you felt. You did. You feel being villainized a little bit?

[A]

Be honest.

[E]

Villain. Sure.

[A]

Right.

[D]

So I Know it's a strong word, but, like, we gotta. We gotta take care of her.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay. She's a good guy. She's part of the team.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[D]

Can't leave her behind.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Are we ready to pivot?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Go.

[C]

Okay, so some of these questions might be rooted in resentment from 10 years of a relationship.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But my first question is, whoa, dude. Since, you know, you have a lot of background with gamers in general.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

How do you approach someone who doesn't see their gaming as a problem?

[D]

So can I ask you a question?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Did you think. So when y' all were together, Bobby was gaming a lot.

[C]

I would say 16 hours a day.

[D]

And you thought it was a problem?

[C]

I'm codependent. Let's. I want to be very clear on this, because I tried to be the cool girl, pretend that it wasn't a problem for so long because I very common convinced that my assessment of him was he needed this to either stem or escape or soothe himself. So I convinced myself for the first couple years that this is just what this man needs to get by. And. But after that, there was an awakening of, oh, I've completely abandoned my own needs because I've just let him roam free with this thing that he does for so much of our life together. And so. Yeah.

[D]

And then what did you do?

[C]

I. I tried to address it, but I feel like I addressed it a little bit too late and in a way that wasn't effective because I sounded like a nag.

[D]

Okay, so how did you address it?

[B]

Nag.

[D]

Nag means what, though?

[C]

It was like, I need. We need to be doing things outside of this. Can we go do this? Can we, you know, can you stop? Can you put that down?

[D]

And it was just like, constant and how many times? Like a day? Every day?

[C]

Or no. Or that. Or I would just shut down.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

And then. And wait for him to notice that I was. It's been six days.

[D]

Okay, so he's.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So you were encouraging him to change his behavior.

[B]

I mean, Skyrim came out. What am I going to do?

[D]

So immersive came out.

[B]

You know what I mean, Bobby?

[D]

Which time? Because Skyrim keeps coming out.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, the original. The first time it came out, it was like, I'm a Bethesda fan. I was like, it's coming out. What am I going to do? You want to cuddle?

[D]

No, I'm playing.

[C]

I am kind of. I'm an over understander and I understand, like, what he went through as a kid. Kids. So in my head, when he would talk about Red Dead, Redemption was coming out in X amount of days, I was like, oh, he needs this. Right? So then I felt guilt for even trying to, like, pry him away from this thing he was so excited about. And then, so I would go back and forth between being really angry and being like, you can't. Can you just shut it down to being like, I'm just gonna pretend that

[D]

you know, okay, so. But. But what? Can you shut it down? Would not work.

[C]

It would not work.

[D]

Right. So then when that wouldn't work, then I would.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And then. And then you're just, well, this is not working. I guess I just have to take care of my own needs, handle it myself. He's gonna do whatever the fuck he's gonna do. And then the volcano of getting frustrated with him because you're in a relationship with a man who's playing Skyrim for 16 hours a day, and you have social needs, sexual needs, whatever. Right? Emotional needs. And then you're like, hey, can we hang out sometime? And then he's like, yeah.

[C]

And it was also layered by the fact that once the video game was shut off, it was. Instead of connecting with me, then he would go straight to porn and jerk off and then go to bed.

[B]

Oh, okay, here we go.

[D]

Okay, this is great.

[B]

Train of Doom.

[D]

Okay. No, no, this is.

[B]

It goes nowhere.

[C]

Sorry. I told you it was a hard thing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a circle, circle, circle.

[C]

Bobby, by the way, I've. Like, we've. We've reconciled. I forgive.

[B]

Yeah, you like to bring up old stuff. Listen, we're not together anymore. It didn't work.

[D]

You're no longer the villain, by the way.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

You're off the hook.

[B]

I'm the villain.

[D]

I'm the villain now. Yeah, you're so defensive, right?

[A]

Like, like, bro, go offensive.

[D]

So, so let's just. Let's. I'm with you. I'm with you. No, no, no, I'm with you. I, I, I.

[B]

Together with the cat stuff, man.

[D]

I still.

[B]

I'm still.

[D]

Listen, listen.

[C]

What is.

[D]

Listen.

[B]

How did I become the villain?

[D]

No, What's. No, but you. She villainized you.

[B]

She vil.

[D]

I know, but that makes you the villain. Okay, dude, wait.

[C]

By the way, you're free to villainize me back. I'm. It's fair game bringing up old shit, guy.

[D]

No, no, no. I know, I know.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[D]

So step number one.

[B]

No, step number one. She's still the villain.

[D]

Well, wait, just as soon as. So she'll become the villain. Soon enough.

[C]

On her own.

[A]

On her own.

[D]

Cause now what's happening is y' all two are fighting. I'm in the middle right now. And then, and then if I ever take a step back, she's going to feel so uncomfortable that she's going to have to step in.

[C]

I see. I see.

[D]

I got your back. I also have your back. So just because we're so, so she. So you were fine with being a degenerate 16 hour gamer, but when your athlete swimming girlfriend complains because you're jerking off instead of having sex with her, that is like when you're like, no. Right. Like, you see what I mean? Okay, but, but, but I still have your back. Okay, but, but calling you out and having your back are not mutually exclusive.

[C]

Oh, I like that.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. You like that, right?

[D]

So, so what we're gonna do is we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna help you out.

[B]

I don't need, I already addressed it.

[D]

Okay, fair enough.

[B]

I don't do that anymore.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, I, I, it was, it was one of those things where it's like, I, it ruined my relationship with Kalila, and in this new relationship, I don't do it anymore.

[D]

There's so much there, man. So it's growth for you.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[D]

Right. But, like, here's what's annoying for Kalila.

[B]

She's got a man, she's got a baby now.

[D]

Great.

[B]

She moved on.

[D]

Great.

[B]

Better horizons.

[D]

Great. If only that worked. So I think the real tragedy here is that both y' all have moved on, and that's like, healthy and great and good for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And also for 10 years. I don't know if it was 10 years. Right. She was living with this. So there's a lot of emotional energy. It's a lot of, like, rejection that builds up.

[B]

It wasn't the full ten years.

[D]

Okay, whatever.

[B]

The last five.

[D]

Okay, good. Right. So do you feel, do you feel, you feel it? Right? So, like, when I make a mistake, like, it needs to be corrected, which is good.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

But you feel like you're signaling to us really hard. I'm not that guy anymore. And I put in the work.

[B]

Sometimes I slip. Okay. Yeah.

[D]

Right.

[B]

A week and a half will go by. I was like, I'll just jerk off tonight, whatever. But okay. I don't do it every night.

[D]

So now I'm going to pivot. Earlier we were like, okay, we're going to talk about the book. And I was like, why now is the time to talk about that?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. We're a good segue.

[D]

So this is actually why I wrote a book. No, I should, but this is why I wrote the book. So I think that. So the book, how to Raise a Healthy Gamer.

[B]

Boom.

[D]

This is why I wrote it.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Because people are having this problem, and they literally do not know what to do.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

Okay. Right. So. So what people try to do is they try to change the behavior. Like, so you start to nag, and then you get exactly into the position. Kalila, I've heard your story a thousand times. Of, like, you're trying to get him to change, and you're like, you nag, but that doesn't work. And then you kind of, like, ease off, and that doesn't work. And then the other thing with it, which we didn't talk about, is sometimes the nagging works, Right? Like, sometimes with a lot of effort, you can get him to stop for, like, a day or two.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

But then the problem is, like, on a Saturday night, he's fine. And then on Sunday, maybe he's on his best behavior because you're threatening to break up with him or whatever. And then, like, Monday, like, the moment that you stop nagging him, then it comes back. And then the really bad thing is, like, you know, you can get kind of get him to stop, but then you don't like the person you become.

[C]

I hated the person I became. Like, I felt like very much like a brute overlord.

[D]

Right. So this is where, you know, this is. This is what the book is good at. So the book is there to teach communication skills that I think. Absolutely. I mean, it's. It's designed to help you have your kids develop a healthy relationship with technology so you can set good technology habits and things like that. But I think this is where it teaches some of the most fundamental communication skills. So I think the way that you want to start is by asking Bobby. Right. So here's a lesson I've learned doing addiction psychiatry for a while. You can't be sober for somebody else. Like, you can try. I know you just can't do it. So the biggest problem here is, as long as you are trying to get him to stop and he is not interested in stopping, there's no way to win. So I think the first question is, like, Bobby, how do you feel about your gaming? What's it like to play Skyrim for 16 hours a day? You know, like, I know Skyrim is a great game. Like, I played Skyrim. I think it's awesome, you know, And Skyrim is great. I played Morrowind. I played Oblivion, I played Arena, I played Daggerfall.

[B]

What the fuck I do. What's up, dude? Bethesda all day, every day, huh?

[D]

Yeah, well, used to be Bethesda all day, every day. Nowadays he doesn't play Fallout.

[B]

So you didn't play Starfield?

[D]

Did not touch Starfield. Played New Vegas, played Fallout 3. Haven't tried Fallout 4. I'm circling around though.

[B]

Maybe Fallout 4 is great.

[D]

We'll see. Speaking of expectations to live up to, I think this is the problem with Elder Scrolls 6 is like they just have such huge expectations.

[B]

All right. That's why they haven't come out.

[D]

I know.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

That's why they just read anyway. But getting back to. I had a problem with gaming addiction too. That's challenge. But so I think just asking him, you know, what's going on? Like, what's going on with this? Like, how do you feel about this? So you want to start with like open ended questions. And as long as he views you as the enemy, he's gonna get defensive. And we're even seeing like an echo of that come out in this conversation. Even though y' all have moved on. Right. But you see like a little bit of the resentment comes out, a little bit of the defensiveness comes out and y' all have absolutely moved on. I'm not trying to demonize you.

[C]

No, you're right. I'm sweating. Like even just asking that question, like it throws me back in this scenario of.

[D]

Exactly. So that's what happened. We get thrown back. We get thrown back. Right. And Bobby is signaling to us and it's important to acknowledge that. Right. He's not the person he used to be. And you guys have, he has grown. Y' all have moved on. He's in a new relationship now. He's been sober for four years. Right?

[E]

Four years.

[B]

Sure have.

[D]

And so there's a lot there to be proud of. And we'll get to that. That later.

[B]

There's a lot, A real lot, a lot, a lot to be proud of, you know? Yeah.

[D]

Are you're on the verge of tears?

[B]

No.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

I'm just like going through something right now, man.

[D]

Yeah. What are you. What are you going through?

[B]

Rage.

[D]

Okay. What are you angry about?

[B]

Scenario.

[D]

What?

[B]

It's like, you know, she brought up old stuff, man. You know?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And so it. I ruined our relationship. I accept that. You know, I changed my behavior too late after. Okay. And now we're friends and I love her. Right. But it's like, you know, I now the video game thing, I'VE addressed the porn. The video game thing is. It's a problem. Still a problem. But yeah, I, yeah.

[D]

Anyway, well, I will get back to the rage in a second, but let's. I'm the rage. Yeah, right, so. So I think got it shelved.

[B]

I'm good, I'm good, I'm good.

[D]

Dude, did you fart?

[B]

What is it with gay fart? What is it with you today? Dude? Simplistic comedy today, huh?

[D]

See, see now y' all have to be careful because I'm teaching y' all how to observe interactions. Right? So now he's doing the work that I didn't do. Now he knows.

[B]

Now I know what you're doing, but

[D]

we'll get to the rage. Okay, but let's answer your question because I think that's a huge problem that people struggle with. So if you have a partner who has a behavior that is harmful, what do you do? You ask open ended, non judgmental questions. Because he knows. So he's got rage. Right. But he's saying it's beautiful that you, you brought up the rage. Because what the rage tells me is that y' all have moved on, but that rage is still there. So where's that rage coming from? That rage is coming from his mind when he was stuck in it. Like he knows I've got a smoking hot girlfriend and like she wants to hang out with me and I'm choosing to watch porn. Like there is self loathing, right? I don't know. I mean, there's some anger that probably got shifted to you, but I think most of the rage is towards himself and so it's okay.

[B]

Keep going.

[D]

Yeah, thanks. So I think the key thing there is that we want to use that in a healthy way. Right. So his own frustration with himself can come out. But not if you're on the attack.

[C]

Yeah. Honestly, I put off building a website way longer than I should have. Then I tried Wix Harmony and it was way easier than I expected. I just described what I wanted and I had an incredible looking website. The best part, I could change anything myself or ask my AI agent for help. I had everything my business needed right there. So if you've been procrastinating, this is your sign. Start building a website for [e-mail] Harmony

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[D]

think just asking questions about like, hey, like, you know, what's it like when, when we're, you know, what's, what's going on with you? What are you experiencing? How do you feel about it?

[C]

I feel like I should have done that way sooner, but I think that because I waited too long to even address had already simmered into a place where I couldn't access the open ended questions. It was more like you, you know, like, yeah, too late.

[D]

Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. It's.

[B]

You understand that you don't, you don't fully understand, right? The Bleacher Report app is your destination for sports right now. The NBA is heating up, March Madness is here and MLB is almost back. Every day there's a new headline, a new highlight, a new moment you've got to see for yourself. That's why I stay locked in with the Bleacher Report app. For me, it's about staying connected to my sports. I can follow the teams I care about, get real time. Scores, breaking news and highlights all in one, one place. Download the Bleacher Report app today so you never miss a moment. It's just like she's also very difficult. All right. So it's like, yeah, yeah. What I'm trying to say right now is this okay? Yeah, I'll be walking, I'll be walking the dogs outside, right? Yeah. And I'm like, okay, they did it. No, they haven't done it. You got to stay out there for 30 more minutes. Like she had this kind of did it. They went to the bathroom already, the dog. Because we used to live in an apartment Building. I used to look up.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And she'd be. And she'd be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You know, I mean, another 30 minutes. She's very controlling in that way. You know, I mean, and very nitpicky, too. It's like, why do you do this? Why do you do that? Why is this happening? You know, why is your foot so itchy? You know what I mean? Like, on and on and on.

[C]

The way that I read it is more like he didn't want to ever be inconvenienced to do anything outside of play video games. So even if it was like, requiring, like, we had three dogs and I walked them 90% of the day. So the same. The 30 minutes that I asked for him to walk the dogs at night, it was such a big inconvenience that it became a fight because it was cutting into his game time. And so it was like every. Every minor thing that needed to be done was a huge.

[B]

You're not like that. You're like that. I don't want to get. I want to get too deep.

[C]

No, I have my own d. I have issues. Yeah. I have a lot of anxiety.

[B]

Good. I'm glad.

[C]

Ocd. Oh, for sure. I'm not. I. I'm not saying I'm not. I'm so faulty. There's so many fucked up things.

[B]

So many things.

[C]

Yeah. So many. And we can talk about that.

[B]

I don't want to. I don't want to. Because what we have now is good. I think we're. I think we're going to the past. Right?

[C]

Yeah. And that's what I'm. This is something of interest to me. Just because you aren't the only person who has a video game addiction. I see it in my family.

[B]

He wrote a whole book about it.

[C]

I know. That's why I see it in my young nephew.

[B]

How to raise a healthy gamer. Okay.

[C]

And I have.

[B]

Check it out.

[C]

I have a son now. So these are the things that I kind of want to learn how to, like, mitigate, like, early on. Because he is going to have some relationship with tech. Right. No matter if, like, we're the most outdoorsy family ever. He is going to eventually stumble up.

[B]

But I also provided. Wait, we're talking about it. Okay. I provided.

[D]

Okay. So let's.

[B]

Let's the whole trip go to Philippines, everyone. Hawaii. You know, I mean, I provide. Provide.

[D]

Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Okay. This is. This is really good.

[B]

Good.

[D]

I. I hope people who are listening to this understand what's going on to me. It's clear as day. Is it clear as day to y'? All?

[B]

Everyone's clear.

[D]

Everyone's day. So. So you feel everyone's gay?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, gay.

[E]

Okay.

[D]

Okay, let's call back. Let's. Let's be clear about what happened.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

I missed this. I stopped paying attention. Okay, so she asked a generic question, right? She asked, how do you get someone who struggles with tech addiction? What do you. What should you say to them? And then. I didn't let her get away with it. I asked her. No, no, I asked her that. I asked her what.

[B]

What.

[D]

What happened in your life? So I'm the one that put Yalls relationship on the table. So I appreciate the fist bump, but this is. This is. She tried to. She tried to remove you from the story, and then I asked her to put it back in.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

So he's probably right. And I think that's the reason I did that, is because, like, asking, like, oh, how do you talk to someone? Here's five tips to get your partner to stop playing video. That's not what works. What works is, like, understanding the dynamics, understanding the rage, understanding the codependency, understanding that even though we're done talking about it and she admits that she's got issues, and you respond with, I paid the fucking bills. Right? Like, so, like, this. This. This rage, this rage that you have is, like. It's buried deep, right? And y' all have grown, and now you're on the verge of tears. Are you.

[C]

Oh, no. Okay. No, I'm not.

[D]

I'm not. So. So, like.

[C]

But maybe.

[D]

Maybe there's really, you know, so there's no.

[C]

I think that I'm just more like, I. I. You know, because we really have tried so hard to depart from, like, that area of our lives.

[D]

Absolutely.

[C]

That, like, when you put it back on the table, it becomes very real in my body again.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

So. But. But that's. That's what I.

[B]

Body keeps a score.

[C]

Does keep the score.

[B]

Another. Another book.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Bessel Van der Kolk.

[B]

Fantastic.

[D]

So. So. But. But I mean, I. I think it, you know, pardon. Like, Pardon me for bringing it up again, but I think this is actually like, asking a sterile question of, what do you say? And just say, this does not even begin to capture the emotional difficulty of struggling with addiction. Right. And there's this other element here of, like, when she can't control one part of your behavior, she is going to displace that frustration and make sure you walk the dog for 30 fucking minutes. Whether it's Gone or not, Right. This is something that I see a lot. Frequently. I mean, it's not all things are not always gendered this way, but frequently I see this in female partners of men who have substance use problems or things like that. It's like you're going to draw your line in the sand, right? Because you may not be able to win on this front, but when it comes to this front, I'm going to draw my line in the sand. And I don't care whether they've gone, if they pissed, they've shit 30 minutes to 30 minutes. You can't even give up 30 minutes of Skyrim. There's so much anger into that. And then that comes across as controlling, because in a sense it is, but it's the emotional energy behind it. And so another thing we talk about in the book is, like, how to get to the emotional energy underneath what is fueling the interaction. Because when you ask me the question, what do you say? It's almost like it kind of doesn't matter. What matters is you get to the emotional energy that is driving the behavior. And once that. Literally, once it comes to the surface, people are just more willing to be flexible. They're more willing to hear you out. They feel more understood. I know this is, like, actually kind of a tricky situation here that we're in right now. I don't know if it feels that way to y', all, but, I mean, it is. And so, you know, but like, as I'm calling attention to, like, the various emotions that people are feeling, it becomes uncomfortable. But, like, we gotta. We gotta, like, let it out, you know, and. Yeah, and then it's tense for a while. Like, it was like, you guys were like, we had an insight into your life from, like, five years ago or 10 years ago or whatever. We saw just a glimpse of what would happen in your kitchen or in your bedroom or whatever. When he's walking in with the dogs and you're standing there at the doorway and you're like, it hasn't been 30 minutes. Like, we just saw a glimpse of that and it's.

[B]

It.

[E]

It.

[D]

It's like ugly. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but, like, this is what human beings are, right?

[B]

When.

[D]

When we're frustrated with each other and. And we're not happy and, like. And you hate the person he's turning you into. That is such a huge theme.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And then. And then when Covid happened, it was like winning the lottery. It was just like, it gave me kind of an excuse to play. Remember that little closet downstairs? I was whatever. That little.

[C]

Yeah, I think that was about.

[B]

That was the end.

[C]

That was the beginning of the end. Even though we didn't know it at that time, it was. He didn't have to go on the road, and he didn't. It was like, on full display, his addiction. And I had nowhere to run because it's like, where could I even. Yeah, we were in the confines of our home. And in the beginning, we were like, oh, well, in. In my fantasy land, I was like, oh, we get to hang out at home as a family. I was cooking meals, like, and it. That bubble burst so fast when I realized, oh, I get to see him practices addiction in broad daylight every single day, and I have nowhere to go. And so I. We didn't realize it at that time, but we didn't nip it in the bud either. And I became a person who was just the. What I. The person I didn't want to be was sweeping everything under the rug, and I became her. I was just like, okay, let's just keep excusing it. And then it bubbled over into just the worst.

[D]

So what do y' all think he's going through right now?

[C]

I'm sure it's not right presently in his life or in.

[D]

No, no, no.

[A]

He's rocking back and forth.

[B]

I feel fine.

[C]

I'm probably similar to what I'm feeling, which is like, we both saw this problem and, like, we knew it was there, but, like, we couldn't fix it. I was too lost in my own rage too, and, like, feeling like I was the most undesired person on earth. That's truly how I felt. I was like, I might as well be like a 500 pound, like, man at this point. Like, he would treat me the same. Like, I. I think what he's feeling is probably same as me, where it's like, we had a chance to fix it because we knew what was wrong, but we didn't. We were stuck in our own loops, in our head.

[D]

What? What?

[A]

Cat, please call somebody gay right now.

[B]

You are your folksy bored. I'm sorry.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Can you hear yourself? Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

But also, I don't want to speak for you if you're. What?

[D]

Yeah, I think I get something different from him. Do you want to speak or you want me to speak?

[B]

Speak, please. Okay.

[D]

I think he carries. So you think he's feeling what you're feeling? I don't think so. So I think there's a lot more I in what he's Feeling. And there's a lot more we in what you're feeling. That's the simplest way I'd put it. I. I think he blames himself.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I think he.

[B]

Like, here's. Here's what?

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Dr. I. Yeah. Thank you. I.

[D]

Welcome.

[B]

God, I love you, man. Is the love better or not?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Or more or less?

[D]

We're getting there. We're getting there.

[B]

How long do. When do we get there? We've been getting there.

[D]

It takes some time.

[B]

Yeah. 45 minutes. We were, like, getting there there.

[D]

We're getting there.

[B]

Okay. We're getting. I don't think we're gonna get there.

[E]

Are we getting there?

[B]

We're never gonna get there. Yeah.

[D]

Don't. Don't doubt yourself.

[B]

No, I was kidding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's glaring, that addiction, the video game addiction, it's, you know, as problematic. Here's the thing. Here's the difference between drugs and alcohol. Because I've been sober for four years. You know, it becomes more drugs and alcohol. It affects people around you fast. You know what I mean? It affects work fast. You know, people get really concerned because you're dealing with your health, you're dealing with. You know, it's just. It's a bigger behavior that people glaring, you know, and video games is a subtle addiction in many ways. Right. It's just like. It's just so easy to justify. Like, you know, I. I did. I did stand up, you know, I hung out with my friends, and I'm just gonna play for eight hours, whatever. It's. You know, it seems. But the. The reasons why I'm doing it is what's glaring is I just don't want to feel. Yeah. You know what I mean? And it's.

[D]

It's.

[B]

It's definitely has replaced my drugs and alcohol addiction because even when we were dating back then, she. I was sober then, too. So, you know, I had big chunks of sobriety in my life, and I would relapse. My point being is it's always been a substitution for this addiction not to feel or be in the moment or. You know what I mean? Or whatever. So it's like. It's a real glaring thing even now when I'm doing it now it's like, I should be writing a new hour, but I'm not. I'm just playing a game that I played a thousand times, like Starfield. I just went back because Crimson desert's coming out March 19, and it's not out yet. You know what I mean? So I'm Just killing time, going to an old game until I hope, Crimson Desert.

[C]

Another narrative also.

[D]

So where are we going? Are we going to question number two?

[C]

Yes.

[D]

Are we going to rage? I also am curious about what you feel that makes you. What you're trying to run away from on the inside.

[B]

What do you mean?

[D]

Right. So you mentioned a couple of times that, like, when we play video games or use substances, like you're just trying to get away from like something on the inside.

[B]

I just don't feel, you know, I feel. I think. I think I've. I have the right kind of concoction of things now. I. I'm going to more AA meetings and, you know, I went to my sponsor's house a couple weeks ago and we started working the steps again. And then along with this new. These new medications and stuff, I think that I'm getting the right good place balance, you know, I wish that I addressed some of this stuff when we were together, you know, it would have helped, I think a lot, you know.

[D]

But let's get to question two. But Bob, you should be careful after this podcast. Okay.

[B]

What do you mean?

[D]

So, like, make sure that, you know, if there's a chance that we're waking something for real, like, this is like clinical for a second.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Just, you know, if you start to feel like you. There's a. There is a non zero chance that these conversations.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Will increase your risk of relapse.

[B]

Oh, no, no, I'm fine.

[D]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

So you're 100% fine.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I don't give a.

[D]

But. Right.

[B]

We.

[D]

I mean, like, I know we're talking about stuff, but, you know, we. We want everyone to be.

[B]

I'm fine. Totally fine.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

It's entertainment.

[D]

Okay, good.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

What? Second question.

[C]

Oh, gosh.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

You doing okay?

[E]

Oh, yeah. Good. Good things. Yeah.

[D]

She's. Have you been muzzled?

[E]

Huh?

[D]

Do you feel muzzled? No, no, no.

[E]

Just observing.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, what's going on with you right now? How are you feeling?

[E]

Oh, I feel pretty good.

[B]

Yeah?

[E]

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. I've been thinking a lot about the ego.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

A lot. Because in this profession, you compare yourself.

[D]

Yep.

[E]

And sometimes that can be debilitating towards creativity. So just trying to be more present and more just like embracing who you are.

[C]

Right.

[E]

Because there's not another person like you.

[D]

Absolutely.

[B]

So I want to say something I observed the other night.

[E]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. This is a good thing. I'm not saying something. Okay.

[E]

I get scared.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

He likes full body climb.

[A]

I Know, your whole body, like.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you had your notebook or whatever. You're running around, right? And you're like, you're hosting huge shows. Like, she's now hosting, like, you know, I mean, Jay Leno's on. I mean, all these big names, and she's right. I mean, these huge shows, and she's. She's very beloved at the Comedy Store, and she. And you're. I can see you running around and your excitement, and you're in this big dream state, and I, I envy it. I wish I remember that. I remember, like, in that period where, you know what I mean, anything can happen, right? You don't know yet, but you can see yourself rise. You feel the rise, right?

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you feel the other people around you resent you.

[E]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. But it's still no. I could feel it. I can sense it on your behalf. You know what I mean? Like, the eyes. You know what I mean? Especially from the ladies. You know what I mean? But the excitement. You're in a really exciting space, but it's scary. But I'm telling you right now, you'll never get that again. Really feel this. It's so fun that anything can happen, because when it does happen, it's a letdown, baby. So what I'm saying is that this feeling that you have is everything. This is as good as it's gonna get.

[D]

Bobby, can I do something real quick? Can I, Can I.

[B]

You could do whatever you want.

[D]

Guys, I'm gonna whisper a question in your ear, and I want. I want you to. I want you to ask her.

[B]

Why? Can you ask her?

[D]

I want you to ask it.

[B]

Just make noise.

[A]

Do, do, do, do.

[D]

Okay. Ask that question.

[B]

I, I, I know what. Can I do it on my own time, guy?

[A]

On my own time.

[B]

Sorry. I love you. Yeah. What's scary about it?

[E]

You don't. There's just more pressure, more eyes on you. And I don't want to fail. I feel tired from, like, just feeling like. Yeah, you're just. I, I feel there. There is. I, I'm. I know you have, like, an insane amount of pressure on you constantly, but I feel like there's, like, the first time, there's, like, a few eyes on me, and I feel just. Just scared to mess it up or, you know, being compared to. Or it's. I know we have to be strong and be like, oh, yeah, I don't care what people are saying about you, but it just. Like it does when you hear people talking about you or this and that. That can be scary.

[B]

Yeah, I see.

[D]

But that was good, right? So. So I. I think you.

[E]

You didn't.

[B]

Yeah. You didn't. What?

[D]

You.

[B]

I'll tell you why I did that.

[E]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. Is because I can. We can go on and on about it.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

I had so many other things I wanted to say, you know what I mean, about it? But I didn't want to. So instead, you mean, it's like, you know, let's move on. Like, not move on. But I don't know. I. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay.

[D]

This is huge. So first of all, how.

[B]

What the.

[A]

It's huge, dude. Okay, watch this, watch this, watch this.

[B]

It better be huge.

[D]

Okay, guys. So. So. So.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[D]

So, okay, I'm gonna try to stitch this together. So first thing is, Bobby is telling you to cherish it. He misses it. It's gone for him. Right? This is like. You only get to do this once. Like, popping your cherry.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay. And next thing is, he knows, right? He knows how scary it is. He's like, the eyes are on you, especially the women, so he knows how scary it is. He's trying to be reassuring. And then when he asks you. When I tell him, you know, I ask you about the scaredness because he's reassuring you how that doesn't work, though. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it just doesn't. Like. So here's another thing that you guys can learn in the book. Reassuring people doesn't fucking work. Telling them it is going to be okay where you are. Where you are.

[B]

Interesting. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

Like, not everybody gets to be you. Like, you are exceptional.

[B]

What?

[D]

Right? Like, like you said, hey, there's people who are successful.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

They're not the ones who are talented. They're the ones who fucking show up when they need to. And that is something that I have. Okay, Right? And she's coming up. You see the talent in her, but you know what it's like to be afraid. And then here's the huge thing. When she talks about being scared, Bobby's response is flat. Now, we can think of him as an. We should not think of him as an. Because that is the way he responds to his own scaredness. This is. This is why he's tortured on the inside. Because when he hurts. Why is he addicted to anything under the planet? Poly substance use. This is not so. Sometimes when we have addictions, we are addicted to a particular thing because we've got this fucking transporter, like the GABA transporter. When we have a change in our GABA transporter, we get addicted to benzos like Xanax. We get addicted to alcohol. Some people get addicted to everything. Pornography, video games, Drugs of choice. Right. And these are the people who. The way that they respond to themselves. He doesn't know how to sit with your scaredness. He literally doesn't know. And he has learned. He has been terrified for so long that he has learned how to just, like, blank. Right. And that's what's so hard. Does that make sense?

[E]

Yes, totally.

[D]

So it's huge. Huge.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. But I feel like by her saying that, you know, I mean, I was. She was kind of negating of what I was saying before almost.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[D]

Right.

[B]

Like, I was like, here's the thing is, it's like, I don't know much about horse races, right? But it's like a derby, like horse.

[C]

Horse. Like Kentucky Derby, horse race when they

[B]

go in the circle.

[C]

Sea Biscuit. Okay.

[B]

Yes. He Biscuit man. Yeah. You know, where you gamble. Let it ride, you know, Let it ride. You know, Richard Dreyfus movie.

[D]

You ever see it for reference for everyone?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Horses going in a circle.

[B]

Right, Right. And you're a horse breeder, right? And you know what horse like you, you don't just go, hey, that guy that's gonna be. Or my guy. You have to watch him do things. Right.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

As a calf. Exactly. It's a calf. And as you get older, you just know. And also their parents are important. Right. But you just know that it's a winner where it's got potential to be a winner. When you're a horse breeder. Correct?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Can anyone agree with me?

[E]

Yes.

[B]

All right. And so when I was saying to her is that she's already. She's, you know, I don't refer you to as a horse, but I'm just saying that maybe two sizes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

She's a prize horse.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Prize. There you go. Yeah, she's a prize horse. Breeding quality, right? Yeah, she's right. You're good bred. Good breeding. I mean, anyway, anyway, Good mischief, pedigree. Good jeans. Good, good jeans. You got good jeans. You. What I'm saying is. Forget it. Let's move on. Next question.

[C]

But I think too what you're saying, too how that doesn't necessarily work when someone says, hey, I'm scared, and then you say, but you're so talented. Because when he's in. When he's in a bad way, and he's like, hey, I'm really scared, and I'M like Bobby. You're beloved. You're exactly X, Y and Z. Oh, does that work?

[B]

Because the scaredness. Here's the thing. The scaredness never goes away. I'm still scared.

[D]

But it can.

[B]

But it won't.

[A]

That's huge.

[B]

I, I, I, that's the deal.

[D]

I, I don't, I don't agree.

[B]

Boom. Agree to disagree.

[A]

I don't think he wants to agree at all.

[B]

Oh, really?

[D]

Yeah. No, So, I mean, I, I, I, I think so. The scaredness, it just because it hasn't gone away.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

It makes perfect sense for you to think it won't go away. Right. Because it's never gone away. But, I mean, my job is making it go away. That's what I do for people.

[B]

Right.

[D]

And so I think it's doable. But once again, me reassuring you that it's doable ain't gonna work.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Right. So instead, what I should do is, is. And I get what you're saying about, you know, you're trying to protect her. You're trying to. You remember what it was like to be scared in that way. And, and you care about her.

[B]

I do.

[D]

Right. And so you're like, hey, person who is coming after me. Not like, as in next. Not like, yeah, yeah, you know, like, like, be assured, like, you will get there. He sees talent in you. He sees work ethic in you. He sees bright points. And he remembers how, how frightening it was. And he wants to try to take that away from you. Like he's trying to protect you from that. That.

[B]

I was just mentioning that she's in an exciting time in Alive. That's all I was saying.

[D]

Okay. I mean, I think too much mountain out of a molehill.

[B]

That's exactly it. Yeah. I don't know how to say that too. Mountain of the roll. It's too fast.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Too much mountain of molehill.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow, that's a good one.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

No, you're killing it. And I love you. In fact, I'd like you to have you back here.

[C]

I'd like you to have me back here.

[B]

I would love you to have.

[E]

I don't know if he wants to come back.

[D]

Yeah, I would love to be.

[B]

Every year you gotta.

[D]

I'm not ready to go.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I really have learned a lot from you. Yeah.

[A]

Could we get way more?

[B]

No, we're not done.

[C]

I'm just saying, since I wrote that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's go through some questions. Go ahead.

[C]

I guess this is kind of already in that same vein because it's it is another kind of addiction. But I wanted to ask you what happens to the brain when someone consumes porn regularly? And what is the difference between a young brain, like a teenager having access to non stop porn versus an older person, 50s, coming across, all of a sudden, you know, 8k porn, like for the first time in their lives, they have access to that. Like, how does, how do those two brains.

[B]

What are you talking about, Willis?

[C]

Try not to.

[B]

What you're talking about Willis.

[C]

I'm not trying to bring you into this.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, you just did.

[C]

No, I didn't.

[B]

You said old guy.

[A]

You're not the only old guy.

[C]

You're not the only 40, 50 year old on the planet.

[B]

What's AK mean?

[C]

What I'm saying? 4K.

[B]

Oh, 4K. I've never seen it. Is there a kid K? Yeah. Is there 16K? Is there? No. Okay. I can't wait for that.

[C]

Because when we were growing up, like,

[B]

I could see everything everywhere.

[C]

So you kind of had to search. And like the amount of porn that you did consume was kind of like limited or it was grainy or it was skin. A max, right? But now it's like, I'm in my 40s or Bobby's in his 50s and now it's like, holy, we have access.

[B]

When the first time I saw porn. Yeah, there was a field by my house, right? It was just this field. And all the kids knew behind this, like if you lift this boulder, there's a Hustler magazine. The boulder is insane though. It's like a gigantic boulder, right? And you would lift it, right? And there was one mildewy Hustler magazine. And we all jerk off in the field. Not together, but everyone would know that you'll do the. On the boulder, open up. What? You would jerk off on whatever, you know what I mean? But you would just stand there and just, you know, in this field, close it and then put it underneath the boulder, right? It was like a community. That's where I was introduced. You know, I mean, and the, you know, like it would be mildewy and wet, you know what I mean?

[D]

And you'd have to, you know, is this San Diego?

[B]

No, this is in Minnesota.

[E]

Minnesota.

[B]

It was a field.

[E]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was just there for years. And then I remember somebody put a new one in there and we were so excited. But that was like three years later.

[A]

Who's dropped a tune there?

[B]

Yeah, A porn tooth.

[A]

A poor tooth fairy.

[B]

Yeah, it was a Penthouse or something like, oh, this is a New, you know, this is amazing. But anyway, that's how I was interested in porn. So as. As technology, you know, I mean, furthers, it just gets more exciting, you know what I mean? And like the toys that I have.

[C]

Yeah. So that's basically my question.

[A]

This was asked about you.

[B]

What? You know, you're just watching everything in hk. Go ahead. Sorry.

[C]

Hk Actually, let me just ask the first question. Like, what does just porn access to this much porn do to. Do to, like, a younger brain?

[D]

Okay, so let's do two questions.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

One is, how does porn develop. Affect the developing brain? And second question is, how does porn affect the brain? So first thing to understand is that anytime you do something to a developing brain, it gets changed, shaped by it more. So if you. So interesting statistic. One of the highest risk factors for pornography addiction is actually prepubescent exposure to pornography. So it's not even about sex. Like. Like, kids don't know. They don't feel horny. They're like pre puberty. So you'll get like 8 of.

[B]

You're molested, though.

[C]

This is a good question. Both were.

[D]

What if you were molested? Meaning what?

[B]

Well, if you're molested and then, like. And then, you know, I mean, I think that my sex drive. I. I learned about sex too early because I was molested.

[D]

Yeah. So that is gonna have a even different effect. Okay.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know what else to do.

[D]

No, no, no.

[B]

I got uncomfortable.

[D]

Yes. And so we have to be even halfway with what. I mean, he just disclosed that he was molested. So it's like whatever, whatever, you know, whatever you got to do in order to help him feel comfortable. So development.

[B]

Game development.

[D]

Yeah. So first thing is just like, I want you all to think about the brain as like, you know, concrete that's just been laid. So whatever. You know, if you start using drugs at an early age, your brain wires with that stuff on board, so the likelihood of addiction is greater the earlier you get exposed.

[B]

Well, I started doing drugs at 11, 12. That's when my addiction. Addiction started alcoholism.

[D]

And you were molested before that?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, you know, I mean, I went into. So it's like I can't even believe I'm still. I'm here to be honest with you.

[D]

Yeah, it's quite an achievement.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, but I took. But yeah, and then I. I got sober at 17, which is. So. I mean, it was a miracle because it's like, you know, I found you Know, I, I believe I started I found God at 17. Yeah. And then I, you know, I. If it wasn't an aa, I don't think I would stand up because I had a lot of encouragement from the community. Yeah, the sober community, to go follow your dreams and stuff like that.

[C]

So, yeah, let's suppose that porn was very accessible when he was in the 80s. 70s. 80s. And a young Bobby at 11, 12 who had been molested.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I would have been. Oh, yeah, it would have me every day.

[D]

Yeah. But I mean, he started using substances at like 11 or 12. Right. So. So I think this is where like, basically what. So we'll talk about the effects of being molested in a minute, but let's finish on the porn thing and then we'll, we'll come back. Yeah, Just, just hang tight.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I love it.

[D]

Okay. So. So the key thing to understand about pornography is that what a lot of people don't understand is that it's. It's actually about emotional regulation more than anything else. So, you know, most of the people who I work with who are addicted to pornography, people assume that there's a lot of masturbation, but for a lot of people, it's like second screen stuff. So it's like literally like patients who are in investment banking or private equity and they're like financial modeling on Excel on screen number one. And there's somebody getting railed on screen number two. And so the interesting thing, if you kind of think about it, right, so our body is designed to procreate. And in order. If we get an opportunity to procreate, we can basically shut off everything else in order to make that happen. So if you think about the emotional effect of sex, if we're feeling anxious, there are absolutely cases of hyposexual desire disorder and things like that. Or if you're really depressed, it's hard to get aroused. But if we think about, if you are able to get aroused, what does it do to your other emotions? It basically, basically wipes them clean.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And earlier we were talking a little bit about, you know, the feeling of, of taking a piss. So in, in, in Sanskrit, and if we talk about meditation, there's a. There's a state of temporary enlightenment called samadhi. And so when we meditate, we're trying to get your Great.

[E]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

So when we. We're trying to get to samadhi, like that's what, that's why people meditate. And once you get to samadhi, you feel amazing.

[B]

What's nirvana?

[D]

Then nirvana is permanent. Samadhi.

[B]

Oh, permanent Samantha. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

When the sadness disappears forever, that's death.

[B]

Or you can you achieve that in, in, in life. In life, yeah. So you can, you can achieve nirvana in life. Yeah.

[D]

That's the only time you can achieve it.

[B]

Oh my God, that's true.

[E]

It is death of the, the subconscious or that it.

[D]

It. So death of the self happens can come and go. So another random aside, since we're talking about this for a second. So if you look at the. I don't know if you guys have seen these studies on psychedelics being useful for mental health. So the really cool thing is you can actually ask someone what their psychedelic experience was and based on their subjective experience, you can predict whether they have an improvement in trauma or treatment. Refractory depression.

[C]

Yeah. I had a ketamine. I did ketamine therapy once and once only. And when I say like, it was so effective compared to any like SSRI I had been taking like years prior as like a younger person, I was shocked by how well it worked.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So the interesting thing is when people have an ego death experience in psychedelics. So if I just see like colors or even if I have something like synesthesia, that doesn't correlate with, with a mental health improvement, it's specifically the ego death experience. And that's why people are into the heroic dose. Because the heroic dose is what is most likely to have an ego death experience.

[C]

And that's like a heroic dose of like macro dosing like mushrooms or.

[D]

Yeah. So the scary thing that people don't talk about, which we oftentimes don't see in the studies, and they're like, we can get into the technicalities of that. So I have had an equal number or greater number of patients who will get PTSD from trips.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Who will develop panic disorders because it does have a lot of neuroplasticity. It like puts your brain into like, from read only mode into like edit mode. But depending on what kind of trip you have, it can be incredibly traumatic. It changes the way that your physiology can be wired. So it's, it's, it's kind of like playing with fire.

[C]

Yeah, that's, that's exactly how I felt when I smoked a lot of weed when I was younger. It almost threw me into a state of like, chronic anxiety and like, just, just unwellness.

[D]

Yeah. So chronic weed is even different. So chronic weed is. You get, you get rebound anxiety from weed.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So it's kind of like, you know, if you if you drink caffeine every day and then you, like, don't have caffeine one day, your energy level, like, then caffeine becomes your baseline.

[A]

Wow.

[D]

Yeah. So. So they. I see that a lot with weed. So people will get chronic anxiety. The worst version of this is something called cannabis hyperemesis syndrome.

[B]

What is that?

[D]

It's when people vomiting. Yeah. What?

[E]

Yeah, I got that on a pot brownie. I had too much of a pot brownie.

[D]

Yeah. So when people use it chronically, they can be left in a state where they're nauseous and vomiting like all the time. It's really bad.

[B]

What about the freeze? The froze? That was probably.

[C]

That's not hyperemesis.

[B]

Oh, that's not. Okay.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I used to take. When I used to take weed, I used to freeze.

[C]

Yeah. He used to take like a thousand of edibles when he relapsed and he couldn't tell if he was moving or going or staying still or going. So he would just like freeze like this.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then I'd see like a silhouette of him in the dark.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

And I'd be really freaked out.

[D]

I'm like, yeah, that's.

[C]

What are you doing? He's like, where am I going? Am I moving? And he would just stay stuck there.

[B]

And then they would carry it. And then I would get so shivery. And you'd be like, yeah, ice. And then they did have to carry me to a bed and then roll me up in a blanket burrito. Like a burrito. Right. And then I'd have to cool down. Yeah. Yeah.

[D]

Scary, man.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Don't do drugs.

[B]

It's fun too though, you know? I mean.

[C]

Wow.

[D]

Was it enjoyable?

[B]

No, it was the painful. Yeah. Yeah.

[D]

I mean, because there's absolutely the sense of time dilation with. With marijuana.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

[C]

Wait, back. But I. I like what you said about pouring fresh concrete.

[D]

Yeah. So. So with porn, like, you know, the earlier you use it, the earlier you get exposed to it, it. The. The worse it is. You know, there's a really scary stat. So non consensual choking has really skyrocketed in college. 51 of women experience non consensual choking. 60 plus.

[B]

You guys, you always go, is this okay? Is this okay?

[D]

No, no. But you know, Bobby, Bobby, this. This is exactly the problem. Right? So. So. So when you were watching your Hustler mag on under the boulder, that wasn't part of it, Right? So now actually, no, I used to. Is.

[C]

But that's your own erotic asphyxiation.

[D]

There's all kinds of. So what I love about this, and I would love to come back, is there's so much fascinating physiology around autoerotic asphyxiation. I recently saw a really cool study, Auto erotic asphyxiation. Don't try that at home.

[B]

I had to say that because it's just.

[D]

But I saw a really good cool study in a scientific journal on yoga. This is for you. So there's an ancient yogic burial practice where as a yogi you bury yourself and then when you bury yourself, you're in this, you're underground, and then you kind of run out of oxygen. But these are yogis who are trained to do all kinds of crazy stuff. So what's really interesting is probably when we have near death experiences from like asphyxiation and stuff like that. So that has to do with really high levels of carbon dioxide in our brain. So when levels of carbon dioxide in our brain get really high, they start to malfunction. Now if you're not, that can lead to death. So don't do that at home. But the really interesting thing is it's probably that high level of carbon dioxide that induces these near death experiences. And so there's actually some really esoteric yogic practices where you bury yourself and then you don't try this at home because you can die or get brain damaged very quickly. Should be done under the guidance of a guru. Probably not really at all. But, and, and then what happens is they, they really, it's a powerful experience for inducing like a, essentially a psychedelic experience or a near death experience.

[B]

What do you mean, bury yourself? They dig a hole.

[C]

Like dmt.

[D]

So DMT is a whole different ball game.

[C]

But is it like, does it kind of mimic that whole.

[D]

So, so what's really fascinating is we know that the brain produces dmt.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

But we don't know how. All we know. And I've been looking into this because I've been trying to figure out when you have like a crazy experience in meditation, like what's going on in your brain. All we know is that it's a, it's produced from serotonin. So I think when you have all these yogic practices, you have people that are like on these very strict diets, eating like certain herbs that are found in the Himalayas, drinking like very pure water, meditating for like, you know, many hours a day, many years at a time. Like you'll have dudes like just sitting in caves in the Himalayas meditating for years, decades, arguably, if stories are believed, centuries and then so we don't know what's going on. But like, I think that all of these strict yogic practices are absolutely altering our neurochemistry in a profound way.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[C]

Wow.

[D]

Right. We just don't know how because we don't do studies on those people. But going back to concrete.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So earlier you do porn, the worse it is. Porn is primarily around emotional regulation. So, you know, we see people who are. I don't mean to, but people. People who struggle with their emotions and are prone to using substances or other things to regulate their emotions. Pornography and sex is very good at shutting down our amygdala, which is our fear center of the brain. Good at shutting down our limbic system, which is where we feel. So, you know, oftentimes like people will relapse when they're going through something emotionally difficult. Or we'll see something where in early stage of substance use, sobriety, tech addiction will skyrocket. So a big part of overcoming porn addiction is just like any other addiction, is learning an alternate way to manage your emotions. So the better you get at managing your emotions, the brain needs the pornography less. But a lot of people.

[B]

That's what's happening to me right now.

[D]

How so?

[B]

Well, the more I go into, like, I do some meditation, but the more I'm like. Because I'm. I'm in therapy, I'm going to more a meetings, you know, I mean, I'm being. It. It seems to not come up as often. And then when it does pop up, like, should I do it? I always kind of pop it like a balloon and I just kind of go to sleep or whatever.

[D]

Yeah. So I think if you kind of think back to when you had problems with it, you never even have the question of should I or should I not? It's just like, I need to now.

[B]

I need to.

[D]

Yeah, right. So that shows that. That shows the work you've been putting in. And that's where, you know, you don't believe the sadness can go away, which is fair enough. But many people don't believe that the porn addiction can go away.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[D]

They can't imagine a scenario in which I need to. Can become. Should I?

[B]

Yeah. Wow.

[C]

The non consensual choking is really.

[B]

Let's move on from that.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, it feels weird.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[E]

That happens a lot. Whether you like hook up with people now they just like choke you for no reason.

[D]

Well, so.

[B]

So that's happened to you?

[E]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Like, it's cool. But I'm.

[C]

No. If I don't broach the topic of choking first. And there isn't like a distance. Disgusting. And someone just goes for that. I'm out of there.

[D]

It's.

[C]

That takes me. I'm such in a fear my body will.

[B]

Do they ask you like, can I do this?

[E]

No. Just straight for the neck.

[B]

Yeah. So.

[E]

So you're taking out and then it's like maybe a little bit of a tit and then it's to the neck.

[B]

It goes tit to neck. Huh?

[D]

Tit.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

I go V neck and then tit. It's like that's my like routine.

[D]

Yeah, no, but, but do you mind if I ask how old you are?

[E]

34.

[D]

Okay. Yeah. Right. So. So I think this is, what's happening is, is so we're seeing a trend where over time you develop tolerance to pornography. So then you need more extreme pornography for it to suppress your emotions.

[B]

Wow, this is scary.

[D]

And so, so there's a lot of pornography of non consensual choking.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And we're seeing a rise in sexlessness. Right. So. So people. So in 1975, the average age for a man to get married was 23.8. For a woman was 21.1. In 2000, just round it off maybe eight. Sure. We can do that in 2000. Sure. If we want to round it off. It's 31 now for men and 28 for women.

[B]

Wow.

[D]

Right. So it's changed a lot. We're seeing more people, probably about half of dudes between the age of 18 and 24 rounding off are for you, dude. Yeah, for you. I have not had sex within the last year.

[B]

So we're 18 to what?

[D]

18 to 24.

[B]

Yeah, it's bad.

[D]

Half of dudes.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

So they watch way more pornography. Yeah, they watch. For some reason, non consensual choking is like a huge part of pornography now.

[B]

Wow.

[D]

And so since they don't have real life experience, they watch a bunch of porn and then they, and then they think that that's what they're supposed to do.

[B]

Wow.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes, it's crazy.

[D]

And, and it's, it's, it's shocking. This is something that no one talks about, but it's like, it's insane. 51% of college age women will experience this. And you guys are like, me too. Like, we're like, what? Yeah, like that. I had never even heard of someone doing that in, in when I was like in college.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[D]

You know, but now it's like it, it blows my mind that it, it happens. It Sounds like it didn't just happen to you once.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[E]

All the time.

[B]

Why don't you put a boundary up and go, hey, don't go down.

[E]

I. I've kind of into it. I should say that first.

[B]

Okay, that's different.

[E]

Okay, but, you know, but I like

[B]

it when they choke me. Yeah. And I always go, I know.

[C]

You ask for it up front. It's weird.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I go, do it harder. Like I want it. Like I want them to really get in there. You know what I mean?

[C]

But that is such a scary statistic. It is scary to think that young men are just going out there with zero concern anyway.

[B]

How to raise a healthy gamer. What's the matter?

[D]

I'm listening.

[B]

Did you have fun?

[A]

What's the matter? I'm just listening.

[D]

I'm trying to get to the end of this.

[B]

Did you have fun? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

I want.

[B]

I want to promote your book. You know, I mean, there's so many things we can address, you know, I mean, but how to raise a healthy gamer. How long has this book been out?

[D]

About a. About almost two years.

[B]

Two years. Where could they get it?

[D]

My friend, anywhere where books are sold.

[B]

Brookstone. Brookstone.

[D]

Probably not.

[B]

Barnes of Nolan.

[C]

Buy your books.

[B]

Barnes of Nolan.

[C]

Massage Massagers.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And my pillows. My little travel pillows.

[A]

And look, he even made a post while we were doing the podcast an hour ago.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

You did?

[D]

Yeah. So, I mean, I guess if people want, you know, more information about all of the random crap I talk about, they can also check out the YouTube channel.

[B]

Check out his YouTube channel.

[A]

This one. Crazy why you should stop watching YouTube.

[B]

Wow. Wow, I love that. Yeah.

[D]

Sometimes you have to be a hypocrite in order to survive your own mental environment. Right? So, like, people will take. They'll take their psyche. And if I have hatred, I need to compensate over here to offset. To offset. Right. So, and this is really common where it's like, okay, if you look at an abusive relationship, one partner is like, physically abusive, and the next day it's like gifts. Yeah, Right. So parents will do that too. So. So as we. As we become more degenerate and evil as human beings, that other pole of performative goodness really starts to climb. Right? So it's like, I'm God fearing. This is about God. This is about Jesus. Like, I'm a good person. This is about the goodness and the. Really.

[B]

My parents used to do that. My dad used to hit me. And the next day, here's a car yeah.

[C]

Hit me. I got hit. No prize.

[B]

Oh, really?

[C]

I just got hit.

[E]

The car is big.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Like a truck or something.

[E]

That's so bad.

[B]

Is that still a car? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Better.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

Anyway, not worth it.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

It was worth it. Yeah, yeah.

[D]

I mean, yeah. Lifelong sadness.

[B]

Come on, make light of it. Anyway, so healthy on YouTube. We gotta figure it away. So follow him in all the platforms and.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

What a beautiful. What a beautiful. You know, I didn't know what to expect today. I'll be honest with you. Either did I. Yeah. And I thought it went perfectly.

[C]

He sent the text out, he was like, tell me about Dr. K. And my reply was, he can heal you. So I hope.

[B]

No, there was a lot of insight, I'll be honest.

[C]

Yeah, but then we text that to you.

[B]

Yeah, it was very. Yeah, it was very funsies and insightful. I'm enlightened. And what a great guy. Give him a round of applause.

[D]

Thank you guys so much.

[C]

Bombola shokumoki Moki salaman faith and mokugani Ay makabaloli shokomoki I do.