Summary: Mary has long term recovery and works as a LADC licensed addiction councilor for the center for drugs and alcohol and works as on-call chaplain. She leads spirituality groups with persons in recovery. Our discussion on procrastination is a response to stress because of a lack of clarity. It also is a response to anxiety and uncertainty, or not knowing the next steps to take.

Whether it is a response to calling a bill collector, having a difficult conversation, or cleaning house, we all fall into procrastinating something. When it becomes chronic then we may need professional help, but when it is a poor habit, we can correct it by awareness and taking a small action to get motivated. Being willing to look at the deeper reason we procrastinate is key.

[00:00:00] Vicky: Hello, Mary. Glad to have you here with me.

[00:00:04] Mary Carlson: Hi, Vicky.

[00:00:05] Vicky: Great to have you. Can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are?

[00:00:12] Mary: My name is Mary Carlson. I am born and raised in Cloquet, Minnesota and really haven't lived anywhere outside of this area. Right now, I am employed as a casual LADC, licensed addiction counselor for the center for drugs and alcohol. Then also, I work as an on-call chaplain at Essentia Health in Duluth; stay pretty busy. I'm also a woman in recovery, so taking care of my recovery is important to me. I am married. We have a little dog here, her name is Bailey. I have four children; three biological children and one bonus child, I call him. He's our oldest child. We have nine grandchildren. Stay really busy just with life stuff.

[00:01:05] Vicky: It sounds like it. Between counseling and your ministry, being a chaplain, that's interesting combination.

[00:01:15] Mary: It is. I've actually never worked as a counselor in a field having to do all the work that counselors do because they do a lot of paperwork. When I went to school to become a chaplain, I learned early on that in order to do any kind of a group in a treatment center that I had to be a licensed counselor. That's mainly why I got my license for counseling is because I couldn't do a group without one.

The groups that I've done with people for the last 20 years have been primarily spirituality groups, not religious groups; I like to make that clear. I even make that clear to my group because, unfortunately, it seems as if religion is brought up, there's usually an argument. The groups I do with people are more about finding what's in them, the worthiness in them, especially to remain-- like to find a place in sobriety, how to use that part as a strength to keep them going and recovery.

[00:02:17] Vicky: Wonderful. Our topic today is procrastination, is it a problem or a response?

[laughter]

I think for me it can be both, right? First, it's a response and then it becomes the problem, I think. What triggers procrastination for you do you think?

[00:02:38] Mary: Different things trigger procrastination for me and different times in life-- sometimes I'll procrastinate-- Well, I guess the biggest thing for me that causes me to procrastinate is not knowing what I'm doing, the fear of not knowing what I'm doing, not being really clear on it. For example, I knit and crochet. If I hit a part in the pattern that I'm not familiar with like I have to do this little mental gymnastics to get myself to pick it up and work through it. The funny thing is, once I get to it and work through it, it's fine.

Just getting myself to that place to actually pick it up because I just-- I don't know, there's something about my brain that wants to shut off if I'm not real clear. I've noticed that throughout different situations in my life too. If I'm going to walk into a situation and I don't have a real clear understanding of what's going to happen in that situation, it causes me a little bit of angst.

[00:03:38] Vicky: Yes, so connected to lack of clarity and maybe some anxiety around the uncertainty.

[00:03:46] Mary: Definitely, yes. I think maybe even a little deeper is thinking that I should be able to just do it all. I should just be able to whip through this knitting, it shouldn't have to be a problem that I have to pay attention.

[00:03:57] Vicky: That I think is an important point. We expect so much of ourselves.

[00:04:02] Mary: Yes.

[00:04:04] Vicky: What feelings cascade from procrastination?

[00:04:08] Mary: Mostly, I think dread. I think I could link exhaustion to that because every time that thought comes into my mind that I should be doing it and then I shut it down, it just makes me tired. The funny thing is, I can remember having a lot of procrastinating maybe looking for a different job or talking to somebody that I don't feel like talking to, so finding every single reason I can to put that off. Then I finally come to the point where I have to do it and I do it and I'm like, "Why did I wait so long?" You know?

[00:04:57] Vicky: Right. I love that dread feeling that we get, and it's an energy suck, isn't it?

[00:04:54] Mary: Yes, huge energy, for sure.

[00:04:59] Vicky: What do you observe about yourself and others when they're procrastinating?

[00:05:04] Mary: When I procrastinate, I feel like I get into a place where I just sit and spin. I may have one particular issue that I'm procrastinating on but it starts this cascade effect. It's almost at times can be paralyzing depending on what the situation is and how hard I am working on procrastinating because I think that is a conscious effort. It comes to mind, "I don't want to do it, I'm going to put it off to the side," and it keeps bouncing back and you keep putting it off and it bounces back.

[00:05:41] Vicky: That spinning, especially as it's something more important and it's looming larger and larger, then I start freezing up on everything. That physical response of fight or flight or freeze; for me, I'll start to be freeze. I think that's in response to, "I would flight if I could. Nowhere to run to, it's coming down the pipe and I see it coming. Oh my God, here we go." Do you find that you procrastinate less as years of your recovery have gone by, or is it still show up frequently?

[00:06:18] Mary: I think procrastinate less just because I've learned. In anything that we do, we recognize a pattern. If you start to pay attention-- or I should say, if I start to pay attention, I can usually recognize those patterns. I always tell people, "We don't change anything until we really see it." Sometimes it takes a while to see it, even if it keeps bumping me in the head, you know what I mean? Now I can recognize that as, "Oh, I'm putting something off," you know what I mean?

[00:06:52] Vicky: Label it correctly.

[00:06:54] Mary: Yes, "I know what this feeling is."

[00:06:57] Vicky: Yes, that goes along, I can so relate because it used to be just of a generalized feeling of, "Yuck," and knowing I was wanting to dodge something but not-- like you're saying no clarity of even what I was trying to avoid does like--

[00:07:14] Mary: Yes, or that you were avoiding something.

[00:07:16] Vicky: Right, and now to be able to label that.

[00:07:19] Mary: It makes me think of the fifth step because I've been talking a lot about the fifth step to people-- not the fifth step, six and seven. Step six and seven, you know the our character defects? So many times for me, my character defect is a reaction. It's like a survival skill to something that's going on deeper within me. The trick is to recognize that I-- "Oh, yes, anger, sloth," those are a couple of my procrastination character defects. Then going, "Okay, what's deeper? What's deeper than that?" and to start looking a little deeper into what's going on.

[00:07:59] Vicky: The motivating factor to want to avoid in the first place. I am afraid of not being good enough? Am I afraid of rejection? Am I afraid of being punished because I made a mistake and that's my belief system, that mistakes get punished or?

[00:08:20] Mary: Yes, that deeper intrinsic stuff that we carry that we're not even aware of, it shows up as character defects.

[00:08:28] Vicky: Right, on the unconscious level. What tips do you have to deal with anxiety and fear before you're tempted to procrastinate? I'm sure like me you can start to sense it coming, like, "Oh, this is a pattern that I'd like you to talk about. I would normally procrastinate this," calling this bill collector or having this difficult conversation with my child or scrubbing the bathroom, which I hate, or whatever. [laughs]

[00:08:56] Mary: Whatever, yes. I think it comes down to that same tool again of recognizing that I'm doing it again. Then I guess the other part is being more gentle to myself because I have a tendency to be really cruel to myself because if I'm not doing it right, I'm usually some kind of an idiot, and I have a whole gamut of names I call myself; even becoming aware of that and paying attention to that.

[00:09:22] Vicky: You and I have been in recovery for a long time now. I was amazed in the last year in particular how much that judge still operates.

[00:09:32] Mary: Oh, huge.

[00:09:34] Vicky: Yes. The value of being able to identify it and talk it out with somebody e...