Summary: Toi B James and I explore her book "Talk About It." Toi gives a 12-step process to help move the most difficult conversation forward. She gives us insight into a process that works. I appreciated the book and the dignity that it can give you in approaching these situations that can challenge the best of us. We all have them, after all.

Vickidawn: Our episode today is Number 30, Having Difficult Conversations. My guest is Toi B James author of Talk About It - 12 Steps to Transformational Conversations, Even When you Disagree. Can you tell us a little bit more about your book, a little bit about you, what you do?

Toi: Sure. The book talks about - it really is a practical guide that people can use to have difficult conversations. When we say courageous conversations, this book really gives you 12 steps based on coaching techniques. As a certified coach, we are trained to actively listen, hold space for people in a real way, navigate difficult conversations. The book really gives readers practical tools. As far as my background, I am the founder and Chief Impact Officer of RedInk Enterprises, which is a boutique DEI&B, Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging Firm that specializes in inclusive communications and engagements.

Vickidawn: Thank you. Well, thank you for being here and I'm excited for our show topic today. We all have those conversations that are difficult. We get stuck repeating the same conversation. I know my husband and I spent some years doing that, revisiting them and we could almost write the script. And some topics also are so uncomfortable, we just don't know how to move them forward. Maybe a work relationship or a family situation. Your book, I found really valuable in that way because it does give you such a nice framework to go deeper. I appreciate it so much.

Toi: Thank you so much.

Vickidawn: You share in your book that you've had uncomfortable moments when others were insensitive in their comments around race. Some people would just wait for others to just get it, but this book is very proactive and empowering. What allowed you to develop the 12 steps to transformative conversations?

Toi: Yes. In the intro of the book is a story about a friend of mine, Masud Olufani, who's an artist who was talking to a gentleman after a performance that depicts the selling of enslaved people here in Atlanta. After the presentation or after the performance, which was amazing, an older white gentleman walked up to him and said, "Why are we still talking about this?" Although I couldn't really hear everything - I wanted to - I was trying - I monitored the body language and the patience in the active listening and how he kept the door open for understanding for the both of them. After the conversation, I fast forward a couple of weeks I met with him. I was like, how did that go? How did you do that?

That would've paralyzed me because at the time, so much was happening in the country that was harmful and painful as a black woman to navigate in the world. Talking about race became very difficult because of course I've grown up seeing people harmed because of something they can't change. It's just unreasonable, quite frankly, racism is. When I met with my student, I was like, so what happened? He was like, "I gave him my number." I gave him a call to see if he wanted to continue the conversation. We did after some hesitation talk a little bit, I asked him if he would like to continue, can always call me and we can continue talking about what happens within the African American community, our history, why it's important to continue the conversation about our history.

He just kind of became my hero in that space. Fast forward, I received an email from a friend of mine who was like, "This would be good for you." It was information about Post Diversity Institute, which is where I was trained as a certified coach. I would have to say after that, I actually got my voice back because I understood that it's not just about my feelings to push a conversation forward. It really is about the people I'm engaging. It's really about discovering. It's really about inquiry. It's really about asking the questions to understand, not necessarily change anyone's minds because we are going to disagree, period, in some cases. When that light bulb moment happens for either one of us, for clarity of understanding, it's a wonderful thing. Then you know there's a door opened to continue.

Vickidawn: That is such a different approach to getting defensive or angry, or when there might be a lot of justification to get angry or defensive, in some cases. You give a clear and thoughtful discussion on challenges to approaching conversations around race, politics, religion, and in the workplace. I want to focus on the family and the application of your tools to improve relationships.

To start with, you provide three levels of communication in your book. I especially like the distinction of a transformational conversation versus a positional or a transactional conversation. That was a little light bulb moment for me, believe me. Can you tell us the difference and the benefits to use this model to go deeper?

Toi: Oh, absolutely. We'll start with transactional, and we all participate in that and really transactional is just asking or telling. Like, "Hey, can you, will you, are we going to, yes, no, we're going to do this instead." However, the response is. End of conversation. Positional is more about advocating, this is where I stand, this is what I believe, this is why. You can even ask, what do you believe and what is your why? Then that's the end unless you actually explore. With transformational conversation, it's really about co-creating because it's about sharing and discovering and asking thoughtful questions and keeping the door open for continued conversations and exploration, which can really just at minimum, you can develop a higher level of understanding, but more importantly, you can build connection to continue as you both grow. I just think having transformational conversations is actually doable even in conversations that are difficult.

Vickidawn: I know I wish I had this framework in a couple of work relationships I had in my past that I didn't know how to take it any further. It became really passive- aggressively adversarial, I would say, I know I have, I think most of us do have, conversations with the expectation that we will come to an agreement. You propose that that's not the goal. What is the goal in your opinion?

Toi: Okay. I will say in some cases the goal is maybe just to come to some conclusion, but for transformational conversations, it really is to understand and to connect. Again, because there will be moments where you just disagree, but that shouldn't end the conversation, if you explore the why, the when, where did you hear that or where did you get your information or what experience did you have that brought you to this position? Or what if I said this, would this alter your thinking? Not so I change it, but does it add another layer to what you're saying? It really is just about asking thoughtful questions and listening intently to understand what the person's actually saying.

When I say listen intently, it's also watching body language, it's listening for the silences and giving them space to think through their thoughts because sometimes questions do that. Not that they necessarily stump you. But they give you pause because it's not something you considered before. If you just hold space for people to let them examine their own thoughts, sometimes the light bulb moment or another thought comes to them in that time, that could change the course of the conversation.

Vickidawn: I especially like your use of silence. We like to fill that silence. If we let it be there. I know my husband is a more deliberate, thoughtful person and he needs to take time and think things out. I'm a jabber, jabber, jabber. Giving him that space is probably a big step towards that connection, which I also agree is a very good goal. That's what we all want, isn't it? (We) feel like there's two ships passing in the night sometimes because we're not experiencing that connection.

Toi: There are moments where people will not want to understand or connect. They just want to say what they have to say and recognize that, if that's the case, you could decide to listen, like I'm just going to listen because they are not open to a conversation or you could decide, you know what, until we're both ready to really exchange conversations, let's just table this. I think we're both really not prepared to have a serious thoughtful conversation about this.

Vickidawn: I like that - that it's a direct approach to not just trying to feel somebody out or getting hurt feelings because you started a conversation and they say, whoa, I don't want to talk about that. I know that listening with empathy and compassion does take effort. Do you have tips on how to show that you're communicating and using them?

Toi: I'm sorry, that I'm communicating in what way?

Vickidawn: Using the compassion and empathy?

Toi: Oh, yes. There is a story in the book that really demonstrates what empathy and compassion are because we tend to use the words interchangeably sometimes, and they're very different. Empathy really is about understanding, I hear you - this is what I heard. Compassion is, I hear you - this is what I heard - what can I do? There's action attached to compassion.

The story in the book which is really a...